Conference 7.286::sports_91

    I want to complain about the fact that the SOCCER topic comes AFTER the
    High School Sports topic...  
    
    Who's the moderator responsible...I want heads to roll for this...This
    is unacceptable...It's a disgrace..
    
    
    
    What?
    
    Oh, OK.....Never mind...
    
    
    PJ     8-), 8-), 8-)
    

    
    Just be happy there's a soccer topic at all.  This is a manly
    notesfile, and we shouldn't allow wimp sports in it!
    
    Bruce

    Yeah, PJ, go shoot some penalty kicks, willya ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    How about those national championships this year?  I saw the end of the
    UCLA-Rutgers game televised yesterday on tape delay (Bengals-Oilers was 
    too far gone), and it turned out that UCLA won the whole thing without 
    scoring a goal in either the finals *or* semifinals.  Both games
    finished in 0-0 ties and were settled on penalty kicks.
    
    Maybe NCAA soccer could make a trade with football and settle their
    championship via a writers' poll, and football could set up a playoff 
    system.  Might make more sense and be more interesting all the way 
    around...
    
    glenn
    

I think it's becoming pretty evident that something is going to have
to give soon in soccer concerning penalty shootouts etc.

I'm hoping that the change in the offsides rule will open up the
game a tad more.....
'Saw

    I think the reason for all this low scoring has to do with coaches
    playing more conservatively more than anything else in particular. I
    think *something* should bedone, but I don't like the idea of tinkering
    *THAT* much . I had heard rumored proposals of enlarging the goals, but
    I think it goes too far. Sytles of play go through cycles every now and
    then. Remember the pre-Gretzky NHL? It was low scoring and some say,
    boring.
    Tom

    I watched the NCAA soccer match too - except that I was in the baffroom
    losing my lunch by the time penalty kicks came around and didn't
    know who won.  Thanks for the info.  The game itself (what I saw
    of it) was really lovely play.  There were a number of times when
    there was simply an unlucky bounce that prevented the goal from
    scoring.  I'm not sure the game laws need changing to encourage
    more goals.  Somewhere along the line, someone will come up with
    a new way of attacking the goal that will result in higher scoring.
    However, penalty kicks seem a *horrid* way of deciding a major
    tournament (and my kid's team has been on the wrong end of a couple
    of tournaments decided that way).  What's wrong with a tie? (once
    both sides have reached the limits of sudden death overtimes).
    
    A&W  

    
    I've stated this before...
    
    After the 2nd Ot start yanking players off the field every 10 minutes
    until a goal is scored or it gets down to a 5 on 5 match. At least then
    a modicum of skill is required to settle it instead of these stupid
    penalty shots.
    
    Ugh..I too, was disgusted that UCLA won the championship without
    scoring a goal in the semi finals or finals....
    
    
    Metz
    

I've always felt that the way the International Laws were set up
(unless I'm seriously on drugs and don't remember it right) was okay.

If I remember correctly, it used to be full time, plus two 30 (15?)
minute overtime (non-sudden-death) periods.  If tied after that,
the match was replayed from the beginning the following day.

Personally, I don't see why, in NCAA or High School play, at that
point, you don't just declare co-champions.  If two teams can
hold each other off for 2� hours, why not declare co-champs?

'Saw

    
    And one lousy goal early in the game is like a 21-point lead in REAL
    football.  I think more teams are not playing to win, but are playing
    to "not lose", and therefore the conservative boring game.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Let me start by saying that I HATE penalty shoot-outs..(for all the
    reasons previous JNers have stated).....
    
    ...BUT be careful NOT to assume that a 0 - 0 game is boring!!!
    
    I've played in a 0-0 game where we hit their post three times and
    they hit our crossbar twice.  There were two penalties..(we missed ours
    and our goalkeeper saved their shot).    Two players were sent off and
    just for good measure, there was some crowd trouble.  It was anything
    but boring!!!
    
    
    So the issue should not be how to liven up the game by ensuring more
    goals are scored, but how can we make the game more ENTERTAINING for
    spectators.
    
    I don't have the answer, but I believe it has something to do with
    encouraging a more attacking style of play.  As someone said earlier,
    "playing to win" as opposed to "playing not to lose".
    
    PJ 

PJ --

You've made a good point.  More goals != more excitment.

Recently I watched the Whalers beat the Flyers 1-0 in hockey.  One of the
most exciting games I've seen.

Watching a goalie like Grobbelar (boy does he make me nervous) or
Southall (gee, he's not built like a goalie) in a tight game can
be terribly exciting.

I'd just like to see a little less conservative play.  Whatever happened
to the adage "The Best Defense is a Good Offense".  That's the way we
used to play, and as a goalie, I'd occasionally have to make some mondo
stops, but what the hell......

'Saw

    Well said, PJ.
    
    One game I still have on tape from the WC is Argentina-Yugoslavia
    (1-0), which some (uninformed, IMHO) people described as "boring".
    There were a lot of shot on both sides, along with some fine defensive
    play. Both goalkeepers made some excellent saves. A Yugo defender picked 
    Diego Maradonna clean, just as he was preparing to waltz in on goal. At
    the start of the second half, Yugoslavia ran a "fast-break" play where
    the right wing sprinted for the box right at the kickoff. The center
    booted a long ball to him, as he caught up to it right outside the
    penalty area. He didn't score, but he got off a solid shot and it
    looked like he caught the Argies napping.
    
    The point is that a low scoring, but well played game can be very
    entertaining and enjoyable to watch. Some previous arguments in this
    topic are similar to saying a 1-0 pitching duel in baseball is not 
    good for the game.
    
    Tom

    Totally off the wall idea.........
    
    What if we settled ties by looking at which team kept the ball in
    the offensive third of the field more?
    
    A&W

�    What if we settled ties by looking at which team kept the ball in
�    the offensive third of the field more?
    
A&W

I think this makes at least as much sense as the `shootout'.

Soccer has so many ties anymore, that it wouldn't be totally
preposterous to just forget the game, and go staight to the kicks. Save
a lot of time, energy, and help relieve the boredom.

Mike JN

    Sure, and why not just line up the NFL placekickers at the 45 and have
    the whole game consist of field goal attempts. After all, so many
    drives result in either field goals or PATs, right?
    
    

 >  Gotta remember that these guys would be dog-tired by then.  I'd have to
 >   believe that conditioning, not soccer skill would then prevail.
 

Hawk,


These guys are in superb shape. Most of the UCLA and Rutgers players could 
have kept  going for quite some time out of hte field. Two years ago the game
went to eight (yes 8) ot's before it was settled.

Games used to be decided on the number of corner kicks if it was still tied
after ot. They were supposed to show how much time you had in the opposing
end. It got to the point where teams would go down the field and try and get a
corner instead of working for a shot on goal.

I have a feeling that teams would try and dink around the 1/3rd line if they
went to a metric like that to decide the game.

How about shots on goal instead of 1/3rd the field?


Metz

I'd like to see each team captain given a cutlass, and have
them duel till one yields, in the center circle.

That's damn exciting to me 8^)

'Saw

    
    Duel till one yields?  Nah.  To the death!  Make the term "sudden death
    overtime" really mean something.
    
    Dickstah, Gladiator Movie Fan
    

    RE:  determining overtime by time in offensive third of the field.
    
    IMO that could be the worst rule ever imposed on the sport.  
    
    To control the play in soccer dosen't nescessarily mean the ball
    has to be next to the goal post. (Although, the end result should
    have the ball crossing the goal line)  Many teams (the English,
    my favs of the soccer world) use the entire field to control the
    game.  To penalize them for it would be a crime.  I don't believe
    Joe Schmo dribbling in the offensive two thirds for ten minutes
    is better than a team that sets up deep in their backfield, spends
    ten seconds in the offensive third, and scores quickly.
    
    I happen to think that type of play is actually more exciting to watch
    too.
    
    Anyway, the shootout stinks as well, so whose to say...
    
    Regards,
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach 

re: .17

I'm of the other mind.
I  don't like field goal kickers, and as opposed to letting them decide
the game, I would just as soon they did away with the field goal and PAT
and just played smash mouth football.

Mike JN

    uh, Mike this is a soccer topic...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

FIFA Law X clearly states, in paragraph 2, that:

	"The team scoring the greater number of goals during a
	 game shall be the winner; if no goals or an equal number
	 of goals are scored, the game shall be termed a draw."

The International Board interpretation of this Law, paragraph 1, states:

	"Law X defines the only method according to which a match
	 is won or drawn; no variation whatsoever can be authorized."

So, for any soccer match sanctioned by FIFA or its country affiliates, USSF in
the case of the USA, the winner/loser MUST be determined by the number of
goals scored.

FIFA Law VII states that the length of a game shall be two 45 minute periods
unless mutually agreed upon.  This last phrase would allow local sanctioning 
bodies to allow for overtime and/or shorter periods.

The International Board has also issued guidelines regarding the 
administering of kicks from the penalty mark which are used to decide the 
match winner when a winner MUST be declared, as in a tournament, knockout
match, etc.

Since the NCAA and the National Federation (High School) are not FIFA or USSF 
sanctioned, they have their own rules.  These rules, which closely follow the
FIFA laws, have variations which are designed to make the game more 
acceptable to the american players, fans, etc.  In the case of the National 
Federation, they are moving closer to the FIFA laws every year.  However, I
can't speak for NCAA rules which I have no experience with.

    Unfortunately, soccer is not a game of statistics.  Unlike Baseball,
    Football, BAsketball, Hockey, etc who bury us in stats - Soccer only
    measures one stat....The Final Score.  Consequently, any measure of a
    teams performance such as: Shots on goal, Corners, Time of possession,
    etc is likely to be rather arbitary and not very useful.
    
    PJ

    Yes, I was just going to say that it is very subjective to measure
    things like "quality chances" to score, etc. There are so many
    variables in a fluid game. For example, they don't even keep track of
    the exact time. You might see a scoring summary taht says a goal was
    scored "in the 21st minute" but in hockey, goals get scored at "7:23 of
    the 1st period".
    
    Tom

    In Colorado in 1982 there were co-State Champions declared after a 2-2 
    tie in regulation, 1-1 in the two 15 minute halfs, and 0-0 in two 15
    minute sudden death ots. The players on both squads felt gyped. I say
    play sudden death until one team wins. 

Yeah, I don't feel co-champs is such a bad thing.

I mean, if two teams have played their heart out, and not bested
each other, than co-champs is fine.

However, it *is* human nature to always have a winner (hmm, wonder why)
and that's why you have rules like in boxing where the champ would
retain the title.

And while it probably more properly belongs in the NHL note, I abhor
hockey's sudden death overtime rule.  It's fairly stupid.  If the
teams are tied after 60 minutes, let them stay tied.  I don't find
overtime exciting, since most times you find the two teams doing
just exactly what they were doing in the last 5 or so minutes of the
3rd period....playing conservatively....  then so often what happens
is someone wins, not necessarily on the basis of stellar play, but
the other team making one slip....

Leave the damn game a tie if you ask me.  Reserve the excitement of
sudden death for the playoffs....

'saw

    Hawk I was good friends with almost everyone on the co-state
    Championchip team and most said it woulda been better to have the
    chance to win, then to keep the tie. It was a very aggressive game and
    adrenaline was high, after 2� hours of battling each other a tie was
    unacceptable to most. 

    re: .30
    
    >>  most said it woulda been better to have the chance to win, then
    >>  to keep the tie. It was a very aggressive game and adrenaline was high,
    >>  after 2� hours of battling each other a tie was unacceptable to most. 
    
    
    re: having a chance to win....
    
    What was the two & half hours of battling for if not a chance to win??
    
    
    Every team in any sport knows how long a game lasts  (except perhaps
    darts or pool).  If you can not win in the allotted time why shouldn't
    they be happy with a tie (or co-champs)???
    
    After all the other option is to say that neither team was good enough
    to be called champion and so both teams should share 2nd place!!!
    
    PJ   

    >re: having a chance to win....
    
    >What was the two & half hours of battling for if not a chance to win??
    
    "Having a change to win" meant to play on, instead of having a tie
    declared. 
    
    >Every team in any sport knows how long a game lasts  (except perhaps
    >darts or pool).  If you can not win in the allotted time why shouldn't
    >they be happy with a tie (or co-champs)???
    
    Competitive greed. Do you think the Super Bowl participants would be
    willing to chuck the overtime idea (if the game ended in a tie) and
    just settle for being co-champs. The bottom line is that people, in
    general, would rather see a winner than a tie.

    I certainly understand the need to determine a champ, my point was that
    if you can't do it in the allotted time, you shouldn't complaint about
    how the champ is decided  (ie penalties in soccer, flip of a coin,
    etc).
    
    PJ

For EVERY Sport...

If you can't win the game in the time allotted, it is usually because
the teams are pretty evenly matched. 
So call it a tie.
Why take two equal teams, and call one a champ based on a piece of luck?

So the players wouldn't like being co-champs?
Tough!
They should have played harder and won in regulation.

Mike JN

    If the finalists knew that the outcome would result in a tie (rather
    than a shoot-out, coin-toss, etc) perhaps the teams be willing to play
    slightly more agressive, positive football rather than playing "not to
    lose".
    
    PJ

    Actually, it was an attacking, physically aggressive game. At no point
    did either team sit on defense. 

    The US soccer team announced several friendlies this spring/summer against 
    some top-notch opposition. One of the games is against Ireland in
    Foxboro (they tore up the turf & put in a grass field). Anyone
    interested in going? I'll definitely go, along with a few friends. It
    would be fun to get together with any of you N.E. noters for a tailgate
    party for the game, if anyone is interested.
    
    These are the games scheduled so far:
    
    Date       Site                Opponent
    ------------------------------------------------
    March 9    Tampa               Olimpia de Asuncion (Paraguay)
    March 12   Los Angeles         Mexico
    March 16   Torrance, Calif.    Canada
    May 5      Denver              Uraguay       
    May 19     Palo Alto, Calif.   Argentina  
    JUNE 1     FOXBORO, MASS.      IRELAND
    August 6   Philadelphia        English 1st Division club (Aston Villa?)
    August 16  Chicago             AC Milan - Current European Club Champion 
    
    Definitely the right way to go. The only way for the team to get
    better is if they play against top-notch sides like these (instead of
    Curacao, Bremuda, etc.). This is also a treat for US fans who rarely
    get to see teams like this in the flesh. The WC '94 organizing
    committee will be watching this closely to see which cities draw good
    crowds as a potential for hosting games in the '94 Cup. Who knows,
    maybe this will be successful, and this sort of thing can be a regular
    event.
    
    Tom  

Tom --

If I don't have a match that weekend, I'd be interested.  Keep
me posted.....

'Saw

    Gee, think it's coincedence that the S. American teams play in the
    south Ireland plays near Boston?  Nah, must be me...

    Yeah, there is a lot of planning that goes into it. Since there are
    something like 25 US cities that have expressed interest in hosting
    games and the most they can have is 16, the USSF/FIFA must figure out
    which cities have the best possibility of drawing good crowds. So if
    Boiston is hoping to be one of the cities (paired with NY), it makes
    sense to have a preliminary game with a team (Ireland) that is liekly
    to bring a big crowd. (Paraguay might be an equally good team, but doesn't
    have the crowd appeal. The most difficult question is that without a 
    pro league, it's hard to determine if a particular place is a "soccer 
    town" as opposed to a football or baseball town.
    
    In the last 2 world cups, they paired up 6 groups of 2 close by cities.
    For example, in WC'90, the group with Italy, USA, Austria & 
    Czechoslovakia was based in Florence and Rome, about 75 miles apart. 
    There were 6 games total (with each team playing the other 3). Italy 
    was the "seed" and played each team in Rome, while the Aus-Cze, USA-Cze, 
    and USA-Aus games were in Florence. Assuming a similar setup, the US 
    would have to look at 6 pairs of nearby cities, with grass fields that 
    are not baseball stadiums, since the games will be in June/July. 
     
    According to World Soccer magazine, FIFA are very concerned that NY is
    not a good matchup, even though its the most important city in the US.
    Yankee and Shea Stadiums are out because of baseball, and Giants
    Stadium's field is too narrow for regulation soccer. Also, it's turf.
    There is a way to grow a temporary field on turf, and that's probably
    what they'd do. However, to make a wider field would require a lot of
    reconstructions, sich as taking out the first 5 rows of seats and
    raising the field level. 
    
    Since Italy is a lot smaller thant the US there really are only 12
    cities with first class stadiums, so city selection wasn't much of 
    an issue there.
    
    This should be real interesting to see. Stay tuned....
    
    Tom     

    Congrats to the US Soccer Federation for forcing the resignation of Bob
    Ganzler as head coach of the National side.  Now perhaps the locals
    will have a chance for a decent showing in the World Cup.
    
    NAZZ

    If there ever was a slow, painful death, this is it. There had been open 
    talk that as soon as they could get anyone better, he'd be gone. They
    wanted to get the Kaiser, Franz Beckenbauer, and I'm dissapointed that
    they didn't. Beckenbauer is one of the few "names" familiar to American
    soccer, and he's well respected around the world. He would have been a
    good choice for the 2-pronged approach of promoting the game in the US
    and developing a competitive team. Unfortunately, Beckenbauer took on
    running the Marseille team in France, whose chairman is another George
    Steinbrenner. Der Kaiser was releived of coaching duties and kicked
    upstairs in less than a season when they were struggling. 
    
    For 1990, most people were content if the USA played well, but lost by 
    respectable scores, which they basically did (except for Czechoslovakia, 
    but the Czechs surprised a LOT of people). In 1994, that won't be good 
    enough. I think they will have to win at least one game (out of 3). Of 
    course, this has a great deal to do with which other teams get placed in 
    their group, which is another issue entirely.
    
    Tom

    
             <<< SMAUG::USER$98:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEC_SOCCER.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Digital Soccer League >-
================================================================================
Note 89.3                   U.S. National Soccer Team                     3 of 4
LEDS::MANN                                           27 lines  13-MAR-1991 13:09
                             -<  Get you tickets  >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Tickets are available thru TICKETRON @ 617-720-3434
    
    Also BOSTON SOCCER '94 is offering some options, they can be reached
    at:  250 Summer St.
         Boston, Ma. 02210    617-439-7700 fax no. is 617-330-1732
    
         Add $2.50 postage and handling charge to total of any order:
    
         $15  Reserved bench seat.
         $25  "      " chairback seat, select location.
         $35  "                                      ", comm sovenir.
         $75  "   " with invitation to VIP pregame reception.
    
         Group rates at $13.50 per ticket, 50 or more tickets, (by May 8th)
    
    
         The MYSA will also handle group sales (min 15) @13.50 per ticket,
         individual tickets $15. Enclose $4 for postage and handling.
         Call 508-486-0516 or contact the MYSA by mail at 311 Great RD.
         Littleton MA. 01460.
    
    
         (Above info is from March 7th issue of SOCCER New England)
    
    
    _Tim

    Pele had an article in Sports Illustrated this past week.  He offers
    some ideas for changes to soccer, because he says the mentality of
    playing not to lose as opposed to playing to win is ruining the sport
    and stifling the creativity that he says is the heart and soul of the
    game.  His ideas:
    
    1.  Prohibit the human wall on direct free kicks and make it a direct
    free kick one-on-one against the goalie
    
    2.  Award penalty kicks for all fouls committed in the penalty area
    
    3.  Allow players to either kick or throw the ball in on plays out of
    bounds
    
    4.  Prohibit goalies from using their hands outside the goal area.
    
    OK, all you soccer fans, what do you think?
    
    John

�    1.  Prohibit the human wall on direct free kicks and make it a direct
�    free kick one-on-one against the goalie

Makes sense by his logic.  Putting the wall their can actually penalize
a player, especially if he was in alone or near-alone.

�    2.  Award penalty kicks for all fouls committed in the penalty area

Sure, but this is still up to the ref, and I've seen such inconsistent
calls on this.  This will allow more goals, but they are clearly goals
which have an unnatural effect on the game.

�    3.  Allow players to either kick or throw the ball in on plays out of
�    bounds

Allow a kick if in their own half.  No kicks if in the offensive half.

�    4.  Prohibit goalies from using their hands outside the goal area.

Nope, think this one sucks.
    


What will change the sport really, is if a team emerges as a goal
scoring powerhouse.  It will take one gutsy coach with three 
phenomenal defenders.  The rest of the team will push, push, push,
and constantly attack, almost like the old Montreal Canadiens
of yesterday, who'd always, always, always headman the puck, and
attack off a very quick transition from defense.  

Once this team emerges, the complexion of the game will change....

JMHO,
'Saw

 Pele missed the one really huge change that's needed.    Soccer *must* get
 rid of that atrocious penalty kick shootout nonsense at the end of
 overtime play.
 
 If two teams are tied at the end of regulation, they should play sudden
 death overtime until one team scores.  Period.  End of story.
 
 Right now, teams play for the penalty kicks and the crowd then has to
 watch hours of boring play before they stop and take point blank shots at
 a helpless keeper.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I agree with Saw on the goalie in the box rule. Bad idea. As an indoor 
    goalie, I find that coming out to cut down the angles is sometimes the
    ONLY way to stop a shot, if your defenders get beaten. (In the indoor
    game, there's usually a rebound to deal with later) To restrict the
    keeper to the box gives the shooters far too much to shoot at. 
    
    I also agree that the game evloves on it's own, with trends developing
    as a result of the top players. The way Gretzky and before him, Orr
    changed hockey, players will be the driving force in the way the game
    evolves, not rule changes. Soccer USED to be more offensive-minded
    until the Italian teams of the late 60's developed (forgot the name,
    but it's the Italian word for "chain link fence"), which put the idea
    of winning defensively into people's minds. Gradually the game evolved
    that way.
    
    Tom

    I like the idea of no wall on direct free kicks.  The "kick or throw
    in" options make sense to me.  Restricting the goalie in his use
    of hands is less good, I really don't like it at all.  His third
    point really is dependent on the refs.  Maybe ref education needs
    to stress something different to encourage offense.
    
    For me, the real key isn't increased scoring, per se.  It's increased
    offensive intensity so that we see fewer tie scores and less sitting
    on a 1-0 score.  Like hockey, the score doesn't have to be high
    for it too be an exciting game.
    
    A&W

Pele had a good point in that the Brazilian teams he played on 
had five or six good goal scorers.  Nowadays a team has maybe
two.

The players will make the difference.  American football has
gone through at least three different "swings" since I started
watching in the mid-sixties.  The rule changes (except for maybe
holding and the punt coverage rule) didn't have that much effect.

It was the coaching and the players....


'Saw

But american football is designed to keep the team moving toward an offensive
goal. Even if you run a ball control offense you have to keep trying to move
forward to get a first down every 4 plays.

Somehow they have to come up with a strategy to reward an attacking style of 
play in soccer. Maybe something like the 10 second line in Hoops where you have
to advance the ball past a certain point in X amount of time and you can't go
back across that line once you've crossed it or you lose posession.


Metz

>But american football is designed to keep the team moving toward an offensive
>goal. Even if you run a ball control offense you have to keep trying to move
>forward to get a first down every 4 plays.

Yeah, but you still have losses from time to time.

The correlation I'm trying to make is that just as football styles
have changed in almost thirty years, so will soccer styles.  All it
will take is one team who has a few (damn few compared to the scorers)
superb defenders, and five or six goal scorers.  This team, when successful,
will turn the soccer world upside down, because no matter how good
the opponents defense is, once the opponent is down by two or three,
they'll have to play offense.

>Somehow they have to come up with a strategy to reward an attacking style of 
>play in soccer. Maybe something like the 10 second line in Hoops where you have
>to advance the ball past a certain point in X amount of time and you can't go
>back across that line once you've crossed it or you lose posession.

Nah.  Again, if you have to take on an offensive powerhouse, no matter
how good your "D", if they only manage to score a couple of times,
then you've got to get back on up there and try to tie it up...

While there are draws in English league play, if you look at a 
years worth of scores, you'll find few 1-0 games...  They're pretty
exciting games sometimes...

'Saw


Metz

    A lot of what has hindered the great and near great offensive threats
    in recent years is the "professional foul". Defenders will grab, trip,
    hold, kick, or whatever else it takes to not get smoked. Sure, the
    offensive team gets a free kick, but the advantage is often lost, since
    the defending team gets all its players back into the defensive zone
    and everyone picks up a man.
    
    In theory, refs are supposed to yellow-card, or even send off (so his
    team plays short the rest of the game) an offending player, but that
    doesn't happen too often. Yes, getting rid of the wall will open things
    up, but refs have to be tougher in making the calls. People go to games
    to see a Maradonna do his stuff, not to see a frustrated Maradonna get 
    his legs hacked out from under him every time he touches the ball.   
    
    Tom
    

                   U.S. National Soccer Team                    
                                vs
                     Republic of Ireland
    
              Saturday, June 1, Foxboro Stadium, 7:00 pm

Regular price - $15  Reserved bench seat.  Group rates at $13.50 per 
ticket, through Corporate Employee Services & Recreation. See the 
Activity Rack in your facility. (Orders must be in by May 8th)
    

    So, I'll put this request here.
    
    I want to go and see the game.  I don't want to go by myself.  :-)
    Anyone out there want to join me?
    
    A&W

    
    Me and Slasher gots tickets in the Frooonnt rooow11

    I'll definitely go. There should be a fairly large DEC contingent,
    since there are plenty of rumblings about this game in other
    conferences like BALZAC::FOOTBALL (International soccer) and
    SMAUG::DEC_SOCCER (DEC intramural league in EMass/S.NH). I would also
    imagine that there would be other DEC people going, since I got that
    blurb from "Digital This Week" (which really comes out EVERY OTHER
    week).
    
    Should be fun...
    
    Tom  

    A&W wants to go?  Where's Markie offering to escort her to the nexted
    event?

    The US beat Uraguay, 1-0 in Denver, in front of 35,000+ in Mile High
    Stadium. Uraguay was missing several key players who were still tied up
    with their Italian clubs Lazio di Roma, Cagliari and Lecce. Nonetheless, 
    it's certianly a good showing against a very good team.
    Next up:  World Cup runner-up Argentina, May 19th in Miami
    
    Tom 

    I was there, it was a_excellent win. 

    How about a match report? The only detail I heard was that Vermes
    scored the US goal. How did Meola look in the net?
    
    Tom

    The match was mostly played of our half with Uruguay blowing some early
    opportunities and Meola making a couple of good saves. The goal was
    scored late in the first half off a free kick. Uruguay pulled an
    offsides trap and Vermes timed his run right and beat the keeper who
    seemed more interested in yelling at the ref than stopping the shot.
    Uruguay had some great opportunities in the second half but Meola
    looked good blocking and diving. The "D" played great and our ball
    movement was improved from the cup.

DebilDawg --

	Was Harkes playing?  (ie did Sheffield Wednesday let him come back
	and compete?)


'Saw

    I'll have to check out the program. I didn't notice off-hand cuz I was
    buying beer during the intro's. They best part was yelling "SUCKS!"
    after this hispanic team would Chant "URUGUAY". 

    Saw,
    
    The US is playing a game down in your neck of the woods, I hear. The
    Boston Globe said they'd be playing Juventus at the Yale Bowl, June 9.
    If you go, check out #10 for Juventus, Roberto Baggio, one of the
    brightest stars of Italian soccer.
    
    Tom

I might just do that.  

Who (if anyone) from other European teams might I recognize on Juventus.
Isn't that where Rush was for a while?


To change the subject:

	I caught a portion of English league soccer this Saturday AM, and
	they were showing the Sheffield Wednesday - Bradford(?) game.

	Anway, with the score tied 1-1, Jonathan Harkes, one of our
	internationals, playing right defense, blasted a shot from approx
	25 yards out, past the keeper into the upper corner of the net.

	The crowd went absolutely wild.

	And (gotta love this) the very staid British announcer, says
	"and there is a goal worthy of an international audience, scored
	 by a citizen of the United States of America"

	As the Chainsaw wiped his misty eyes, he could hear the English
	crowd chanting "Harkesy, Harkesy"


Made my day.....

'Saw

    Was that goal by Harksey  from earlier this year,like November? He did
    score a spectacular goal against someone-or-other United, and that was 
    what really proved him to the English audiences. If this is another
    goal, then it's nice to see he hasn't  stopped.He'll do very well for
    Wednesday, who, incidentally, have clinched a first division promotion. 
    
    I have a program at home from the SuperCoppa between Juventus and
    Napoli. This was the kickoff of the season between the Cup winners
    (Juventus) and League winners (Napoli) from the previous season. One of
    my favorite players (cause he shows so much emotion and demonstrative
    gestures that ONLY an Italian could get away with), Salvatori "Toto"
    Schilacci, is Juventus' other big un up front. Generally the Italian
    Sere A is the top league in the world, in terms of $$$ big name players
    and prestige. Many excellent internaional class players have gone to
    Italy and not made it in the Serie A, but cam home and did better in
    the German, Englsih, etc. leagues.
    
    tom
    

re the Harkes goal:

	No, because the one earlier in the year, which was in the running
	for the best goal competition, was against Shilton.  

	This was against a second division club, definitely.

	He's a big hit in Sheffield, and it'll be great to see him in
	Division I next year.  Hell, I might even have to switch allegiance
	from Liverpool 8^)

re Schilacci:

	I remember him.  Very, very flamboyant player, very fun to watch.

	I'll have to see if I can't make an outing of it that day.....


'Saw

    That's right, the earlier goal was against Derby (and Shilton) in an FA
    CUP or Rumbelows Cup game. It's nice to see the Brits recognizing that
    Yanks CAN play the game.
    
    Regarding Juventus,
    they are currently in a 4-way dogfight for the Italian League title
    with Milan, Inter and Sampdoria Genoa. I think there are 3 or 4 games
    left, several head-to-head. I couldn't find the program (I moved 2
    weeks ago) but another player of note is Uraguayan midfielder Enzo
    Francescoli. He was one of their better players in the World Cup. I
    don't think he played withthe Natiopnal side vs the US a couple of
    weeks ago, since usually clubs don't let players miss games for
    friendlies.
    
    Tom
    

    An excellent omen for Foxboro Stadium being a site for the World Cup
    took place on Saturday.  A crowd of 51,273 attended a game between the
    United States and Ireland on Saturday night.  As of 3 weeks before the
    game only 7,000 tickets had been sold.  As of Friday, 30,000 tickets
    were sold.  That meant 21,273 tickets were sold the day of the game,
    which is absolutely phenomenal.  The stadium management was literally
    printing tickets and bringing them out to the ticket windows to be
    sold.  The entire stadium, except the end zones, was filled.
    
    I personally hope we do get the World Cup in Foxboro.  I'm not much of
    a soccer fan but it would be a great shot in the arm for the local
    economy and for the Stadium.
    
    John

Not to mention the fact that the USA team worked very hard and earned a
draw with a much better Irish team.

Cascarino's goal for the Irish was beautiful, and Wynalda's goal for the
US was the picture of poise against a world class keeper....

Can't wait for Sheffield Wednesday to come in August!  Will Harkes play for
them or the US???? 8^)


'Saw

PS  Why wasn't Aldridge playing for the Irish????

    I read that more modifications will have to be done to Sullivan Stadium
    before a World Cup game can be played.  The installment of the natural
    turf was just the first step.  The field itself will have to be widened
    by 10 yards to meet international requirements.  This will mean redoing
    some of the seating.
    
    Rugby needs to take a lesson from those promoting soccer in the U.S. 
    The crowd for the US/Ireland soccer game was about 10 times that for
    the U.S./Scotland rugby test (51+K vs 6K).

Mac, I think you're right.

I was talking with Glen Judge the other day about kicking, and we started
talking about soccer.  His original premise was that, as soccer gets bigger
here, American ruggers will start kicking better.

From that we moved to "if soccer does well, it will help rugby get more
exposure"...

I think that's true, however, Rugby is still a pretty unknown commodity
here in the States.  Most everyone knows something about soccer, so they're
more apt to attend....


'Saw

    They will have to take out 3-4 rows of seats in the corner sections in
    order to widen the filed to FIFA's minumum, 70 yards. The grass field
    looked beautiful (especially compared to the pea-green astro turf that
    used to be there). 
    
    The atmosphere was great, lots of Irish fans singing, waving flags,
    etc. I was truly amazed at the size of the crowd. They needed 30,000 to
    break even, and I figured they'd get 35-40,000. One thaing about the
    stadium that makes no sense is that the cocession stands are not on the
    same sides. This means that you have to snake your way through a crowd
    and risk spilling beer(!) when it isn't neccesary. Geez, even Fenway
    Park, which was built in 1912, knows this!
    
    I'll put in a more detailed game report later on.
    
    Tom

    With the estimates on the number of illegal Irish immigrants in this
    area, and the amount of money flowing out of MA into the IRA, I'm not
    surprised at the turnout.

    
    To be sure, there is a huge population of "off-the-boat" Irish in the
    Boston area. I'ts hard to say how many are legal/illegal, but they were
    certainly there in number for this game. A lot of them were singing
    songs like "On the March With Jackie's Army" (A WC '90 song about
    Jackie Charlton, Ireland's coach) and other songs/chants that can be
    heard at ANY fitba match in Europe. People had flags other than the 
    green/white/orange, like Glasgow Celtic's flag (the "Irish" team in 
    Scotland).  
    
    However, one thing that really pisses me off is to see people mixing
    sports and politics. There were a few pro-IRA signs, and one for that
    organization in Mass. that collects money from often well-meaning
    Catholic Irish-Americans, and gives it to the IRA for guns. The issues
    there are far to complex to simplify it with jingoistic slogans and
    simple rabble-rousing rhetoric.
    
    Let's face it, the history of the world is based on one group of people
    screwing another, again and again over the centuries.   
    
    Tom

    Great game, great atmosphere, great crowd (one of the largest ever 
    for a soccer game in the US).
    
    The result didn't truly reflect the game, as Ireland outplayed the US
    and had something like 20 shots to the US's 4. Early on, the US were
    controlling the ball, and doing some nice passing up until the midfield
    line, but didn't do much to get the ball in Ireland's half. Ireland had
    the first chance when the wing (Kevin Sheedy?) carried the ball deep into 
    the corner. The US defense were back, but seemed to be sleeping as
    Tony Cascarino snuck through for a header that went wide. Even though 
    there were 2 defenders nearby, and the cross was the only option for Sheedy,
    Cascarino should have been more tightly marked. 
    
    The Irish pressured US goalie Tony Meola in the first half, and he made 
    several nice stops. The Defenders came through a couple of times, stopping 
    sure goals from rebounds after Meola made the initial save. 
    
    Around 20 minutes or so into the game the US made a rare
    counter-attack. They beat the offisde trap and sent Chris Henderson
    down the right wing. He crossed it to Bruce Murray just inside the box.
    Murray's header cleanly beat Irish keeper Packy Bonner, but the post was 
    the villan this time.
    
    This kind of play was very encouraging, and showed the US *COULD* make
    strong attempts, but they seemed to come too infrequently. More often
    than not, a US midfielder would turn the ball back to a fullback than
    try to go forward and either beat his man one-on-one or send a
    through-ball to a breaking forward. Sure, they don't want to be
    reckless, but even risking losing the ball in the offensive half is
    worth it if the benefit is a possible scoring chance.
    
    Ireland got on the board first about 20 minutes into the 2nd half.
    Packy was punting the ball 70-75 yards in the air and it seemed like it
    would be a matter of time before a fast-break would happen. Cascarino
    took the ball off his chest and beat the US Center back, then slid it
    into the corner past a diving Meola.
    
    Ireland continued to pressure the US end, and Meola made a spectacular
    save on a header by Andy Townsend. A Fullback cleared the ball out, and
    Henderson made a long pass to Eric Wynalda in the center of the field.
    Kevin Moran unexpectedly went for the ball (and missed!) and Wynalda
    took the ball in home free on Bonner. Packy had no chance as Wynalda
    waited for him to commit, then chipped the ball over the keeper into
    the net.
    
    At this point, the US *REALLY* got cautious, and stopped going forward.
    Hugo Perez came on at the 72nd minute, and was visibly trying to get
    the other players thinking of winning it, but for the most part, the
    US slowed down even more. Perez did have a decent chance around the
    78th minute, but he blasted his shot over the net.
    
    Obvously this is a great result for the US, and they showed flashes of
    brilliance, even though they were clearly outplayed. Some people were
    speculating that Moran's error was intentional, but I somehow don't
    think so (or at least I hope not). All in all, a pretty entertaining
    game, with 7-8 scoring chances (mostly Irish), a couple of goals, and
    some good skill exhibited on both sides.
    
    The Atmosphere of the game was electric. Lots of tricolor flags,
    wearin' of the green, singing, etc. that is the usual fare for
    international fitba, but somehow unknown in these parts. Lots of
    barbecue grills, beer and dust-bowl soccer in the parking lot. I think
    the 51,000 + crowd was an excellent turnout and will go a long way to
    put the Boston/Foxboro group in a good position to get a World Cup Group
    (paired with New York/New Haven). Cynics might say that the big crowd 
    was only because of Ireland, which is hard to argue with. The next step
    is to get games against other teams (Portugal or any "big name" European 
    club?) that could draw a good crowd.    
    
    All in all it was a great time. Hopefully this kind of turnout will
    encourage the organizers to schedule more games there in the future.
    
    Tom 

    I also was at the game, with my 9 year old soccer-playing son, and
    once we got in (40 minutes in traffic on Rt 1), we had a fabulous time.
    
    Our seats we even with the edge of the penalty area on the side where
    the Irish scored their goal, and the play certainly looked offside.
    Both Irish attackers were at least five yards ahead of the defense on
    the play.  (BTW, how did Ireland get a player named Cascarino out of
    Italy to play for them???)  There was a large Irish contingent in our
    section, and they went positively bonkers after the goal.  We got a
    bit of a beer shower, but that was the only negative sitting near them.
    They sang throughout the game (often songs that either had no lyrics or
    had lyrics I couldn't make out).
    
    As for the US team, their midfiled play was weak throughout, their
    passing inconsistent, but Meola was outstanding in goal.  Looked to
    me like the team needs to play together more and get to know each
    other.  Perez did provide a spark, but he seemed alone out there
    at times.
    
    All in all, a wonderful spectacle, and an event I'm glad I didn't miss.
    
    NAZZ

    NAZZ,              
    
    I must have been right across from you. We were sitting in the first
    row of Sec 320 (actually row 3), right on the midfield line across from
    the press box. It was high enough up to see the entire field very well,
    and to get a good look at the positioning of all the players.
    
    The "offside" goal was definitely legit. The key is when the ball is
    kicked, an in this case, Bonner, the Irish goalie punted it from his
    own penalty box, giving the forwards plenty of time to run ahead of the
    play.
    
    RE: Tony Cascarino, there are some ambiguous rules governing who can
    play for a national side. I think the Olympics are a little more
    clear-cut than FIFA's rules. In Ireland's case, any player with at
    least one of 8 great-grandparents born in Ireland can play for them.
    For years Ireland was a soccer dormat (soccer is the 3rd sport there
    behind gaelic football and rugby), but recently the "FAI" in Football 
    Association of Ireland it is said, stands for Find Another Irishman. 
    They regularly scour the English League to find good players with Irish 
    ancestery. Paul McGrath #7, Center Midfield, is Black, born & raised in 
    London, but qualifies because of an Irish relative somewhere down the 
    line. If you notice the club affiliation listed in the program, almost 
    all the Irish players play for English/Scottish clubs. The rule of thumb 
    is "If you've ever drunk a pint of Guinness...."
    
    Hopefully they'll have more games as a regular thing.    

Re the Gaelic Football:

	I know it's not soccer, but can you give a good explanation of
	what it is?

	We've a player on the Wanderers (new guy) who came over from the
	Old Country last August, and he said he'd played a lot of Gaelic
	Football.....

'Saw

    I'm not sure about it, but I think Gaelic Football has to do with a
    small curved stick they carry and hit around a ball slightly larger
    than a lacrosse ball. It looks a little like field hockey, but they
    "carry" the ball by somehow balancing the ball on the stick whilr they
    run. I also think it has nets and a goalie, but I might have it
    confused with another sport.
    
    Tom

    Tom -
    
    You are thinking about the Irish sport called "Hurling".  Wide World of
    Sports used to carry the champeenships every year.  Hurling is like
    playing field hockey with a Jai ALai stick...
    
    Gaelic Football, which I played for years when growing up, is more like
    a combo of soccer, speedball and rugby.  You can run with the ball,
    taking up to three dribles, you cain kick it, and chuck it - within
    certain rules.  I haven't plaed since I was about 13 so its all a
    little hazy.
    
    
    JD

    That's right!  I knew it was something like that....

    jai alai stick that's funny 8*)
    
    Hurling uses basically a bat cut in half lengthwise except for the
    handle which is normal.
    
    Jai Alai uses a cesta.  I wouldn't want to try and swing at a 160 mph
    rock.
    
    Jimbo

    Gaelic Football seems to me, to be a fairly similar version to
    Australian Rules Football. Obviously, there are some major differences,
    but I don't imagine that hey can be that different, because every now
    and then, a GF team will play against a ARF team, at each others game.
    
    It all appears to be the perfect excuse to have a mass punch up on the
    pitch, and occaisionally, kick a ball about.  ;)
    
    Wayne

    Wayne -
    
    It's gotta little 'footie' in it, for sure.  Don't have the neat guys
    in the white outfits, though.
    
    My uncle's played for a New York City Gaelic Football Club that won the
    US Champeenships quite a few times in the 50's and 60's (Played at Crow
    Park...) - and got to go to Ireland to play Irish clubs.  Some great
    stories.  They always talked about being bloody and bruised after the
    games - and theyn they would have a drink-up (I guess like Rugby_).
    
    A fine game.  Still played in Irish enclaves here in the states.  I
    know they still have a league in the New York City area - the police
    and fire departments have teams (Which are teams my Uncles' played on).
    
    JD

    Watched most of the US-Juvuntus match from New Haven on TV yesterday.
    
    Again, Tony Meola was sensational in net.  US played better in midfield
    than they did against Ireland, but still couldn't finish off a play. 
    It was frustrating watching them squander good scoring chances. 
    Juvuntus also blew a couple of wide open shots.  It was great to see
    both teams play for the win at the end of the game.  Three great
    scoring chances in the last five minutes.
    
    NAZZ
    
    PS - Attendance was 33 thousand and change 

    Sounds like a good result for the US. Did Juventus bring their full
    team with Baggio, Schillachi, Hassler, etc? Juve are definitely one of
    the better club sides in Europe, so this is encouraging. 
    
    33,000 isn't bad attendance wise, but maybe I was expecing a bigger 
    crowd since Ireland drew so many last week. How many does the Yale Bowl 
    seat - 50,000 or so?  Didn't the NY Giants play football there in the 70s 
    before the Meadowlands was built? What do you s'pose the chances of having 
    a New Haven/Foxboro group for the WC94? FIFA wants New York, but will New
    Haven be close enough, since none of the NY Stadiums will be available
    or possible to use?
    
    The US team will be busy over the next few weeks with a game against AC
    Milan (European club champions in 89 and 90) in Chicago next week.
    After that, it's on to LA for the CONCAF Gold Cup, which is formatted
    after the European Nations' Cup. The tournament runs from June 28th to
    July 7th. The 2 groups are: Canada, Honduras, Jamaica, Mexico (games in 
    Los Angeles) and US, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Tinidad & Tobago (games in 
    Pasedena). Tough group for the home side...
      
    Tom

    Yale Bowl holds 75,000 people, only slightly less than Giants Stadium
    does.  It's natural grass with plenty of room to fit a soccer field in. 
    Its problem is that the supporting facilites - locker rooms, press and
    so forth - are woefully inadequate.
    
    The Giants played in Yale Bowl for most of the 1973 season, all of 1974
    and perhaps 1975 (I can't remember) while Yankee Stadium was being
    renovated and while waiting for Giants Stadium to be finished.  Yale
    Bowl was also the site for the annual Giants - Jets preseason game
    since the home park for both teams was always unavailable due to
    baseball.
    
    John

    Tom,
    
    Can you keep me posted about the CONCAF world cup ?
    
    Thanks
    Wayne

    sorry, I meant Gold Cup. Tks.

    The deadline has passed for potential sites to cough up their $$$$ and
    bid as a hosting site. All together, 27 cities put in bids, with the
    maximum nuber of games meaning a $255,000 fee. Here is the list of
    cities. Some are artificial turf, for which a grass pitch will have to 
    be re-laid over the turf. Other stadiums wil require significant (and
    costly) alterations mostly to make the pitch wider.              
    
    City                Games bid          Stadium            Capacity
    ----                ---------          -------            --------
    Atlanta             1,2                Bobby Dodd         45,000 a
    Boston              O,1,2,Q,S,3        Foxboro            61,000
    Charlotte           1,2                Charlotte          72,000 b
    Chicago             O,1,2,Q,S,3        Soldier Field      67,000
    Columbus            1,2,Q,S            Ohio State U       86,000
    Dallas              O,1,2,Q,S,3,F      Cotton Bowl        72,000 a
    Denver              1                  Mile High          76,000
    Detriot             1,2,Q              Pontiac Silverdome 80,000 a,d
    Honolulu            1                  Aloha              50,000 a
    Houston             1                  Astrodome          55,000 a,d
    Kansas City         O,1,2,Q,S,3,F      Arrowhead          78,000 a
    Knoxville           1,2,Q,S            Neyland            91,000 a
    Las Vegas           Final Draw - no games
    Los Angeles         1,2,Q,S,3,F        Coleseum           93,000
    Miami               O,1,2,Q,S,3,F      Joe Robbie         73,000
                             "             Orange Bowl        75,000
    New Haven           O,1,2,Q,S,3        Yale Bowl          71,000
    New Jersey          O,1,2,Q,S,3,F      Giants Stadium     77,000 a
                             "             Rutgers U.         25,000
    New York                 "             Aqueduct Race Track  TBD  b
    New Orleans         1,2,Q,S            Superdome          80,000 a,d
    Orlando             O,1,2,Q,S          Citrus Bowl        70,000
    Philadelphia        O,1                Veterans           66,000 a
    Phoenix             1,S                Sun Devil          75,000
    Portland            1                  Parker             40,000 a
    San Francisco       O,1,2,Q,S,         Candlestick        61,000
                            "              Stanford           86,000
    Seattle             1,2,Q              Husky              72,000 a
    Tampa Bay           O,1,2,Q,S,3,F      Tampa              74,000
    Washington DC       O,1,2,Q,S,F        RFK                55,000
    
    O=Opening Game; 1=First Round; 2=Second Round; Q=Quarter-final;
    S=Semi-final; 3=Third-place Game; F=Final
    
    a=Artificial Turf; b=Stadium under construction; d=Domed Stadium 
    
    The format of the world cup is something like this: The first round games
    are played in 6 pairs of cities, usually nearby. Right from the start,
    you can eliminate cities like Honolulu, who has NO other nearby city to
    pair off 1st round games. 16 teams qualify for the Second Round, so
    that's another 8 games. These could conceivable be in cities that
    didn't host 1st round games (like Honolulu !) just to spread it around
    a bit. The quarter finals (4 games) and Semi finals (2 games) could
    also be staged this way. There is a 3rd place game and a Final, and
    you'd expect these to be played in the best stadiums available (Joe
    Robbie, LA Coleseum?)
    
    Judging by this, you can probably figure out which cities might get the
    games. Any stadium with astro turf has 2 1/2 strikes against it. Also,
    the Cup is played in June/July, so Baseball stadiums are not a realistic
    option. (how did Candlestick get in there?) 
    This list came from the British magazine, "World Soccer" 
    
    Also, World Soccer says that the following 7 countries have put in formal
    bids for the 1998 WC: Some countires have been previous hosts. Brazil
    (1950), England (1966), France (1934), India, Morocco, Portugal
    and Switzerland (1938). Nigeria and Chile have dropped out of the bidding. 
    
    Tom

    re .93:
    
    When will the final choice of sites be made?
    
    
    py

    I think they decide on sites in the spring of 1992, so that's why the
    USA-Ireland game in Foxboro (51,000+) was such an encouraging sign for
    this area's chances.
    
    The "draw" determines which of the 24 qualifiers play whom, and in what
    cities. This won't occur until Dec. 1993.
    
    Tom

    Another impressive game by the U.S. National team last night 
    against Sheffield Wednesday.  The Americans won it 2-0 with
    both goals coming in the 2nd half.  Sheffield looked to have
    more problems with the astroturf though.  The game was played
    on a baseball field that had the dirt areas "patched" with
    pieces of astroturf that were an inch higher that the rest
    of the field.  Anyway, it was an exciting game to watch.  
    Sheffield didn't seem to have that many shots on goal from
    close range and most shots were over the net.  Could be that
    the wild kicks were caused, in part, by playing on carpet.
    Americans probably get more time on fake grass than the
    foreigners(?)
    
    It looks like we may have a soccer team that can compete
    with the big boys.
    
    Cowboy

Read an article in Sunday's paper which quoted John Harkes, a US national
who plays midfield with Sheffield Wednesday.  He was very impressed with
the new look and new personnel of our national team.

Getting rid of Ganssler was the best thing they could have done!

'Saw

    The new coach this year is getting alot of credit for the big
    improvement thats been made.  (caint remember his name)  He's
    really experienced and FOREIGN.  Isn't he from England?

    The new coach's name is Bora Milutinovic, and he's from Yugoslavia
    or Czechoslovakia, one of the two.
    
    And he's doin' a tremendous job!
    
    NAZZ

  >   The new coach's name is Bora Milutinovic, and he's from Yugoslavia
  >   or Czechoslovakia, one of the two.
    
    
    Yeah, that's the name.  How'd the hell'd you remember that!?
    

    I read an interview with Bruce Murrey, he said Bora is more of a
    teacher. He says he's learned a lot frm him.

    Not too many guys I know named Bora!  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

    Saturday's Globe reported that the USA will be hosting a four-team 
    tournament next June in FOXBORO!! The exact dates haven't been decided,
    but the format will most likely have 4 games over a weekend. The 
    participants will be:
    
    USA
    Italy
    Portugal
    England or Ireland
    
    Italy and Portugal are behind, but still mathmatically alive in their 
    European Championships qualifying groups, but the USSR and Holland 
    respectively are favorites. England and Ireland are in the same group,
    so only one can qualify for the 8-team tournament in Sweden in June '92.
    
    The "Azurri" are always a popular draw, and will get plenty of support 
    from the Italian-American communities all over the area, as well as 
    soccer fans in general. They are generally regarded as one of the world's 
    elite teams, and finished 3rd in the 1990 WC. They last won the WC in 
    1982. Portugal are also anticipated to draw big among the Portugese 
    communities in SE Mass. and RI. Last June's Ireland-USA game in Foxboro 
    drew over 51,000, more than all but one Patriots crowd last season. 
    England, who finished 4th in 1990 are also regarded as one of the top 
    teams in the world. 
    
    Tough competition for the Yanks, but should be entertaining
    nonetheless.
    
    Tom

    I gotta question.
    
    My 5-year old son is in an instructional type soccer league where they
    play every Saturday morning for ~1hr.  The first 30-40 minutes is
    teaching and practicing of ckills and the last 20-30 minutes is playing
    a game.
    
    Whilst talking to my wife yesterday, she said that he did real good
    Saturday but there was one kid who was beating EVERYBODY to the ball,
    most of the time.  My wife said that the field was damp, but not muddy
    or outright soaked.  She said the kid that was getting to the ball most
    of the time had soccer shoes(plastic spikes??) while all of the other
    kids had regular tennis shoes, and were slipping.
    
    Is it worth investing the $40+ right now for a set of shoes so the boy
    can keep up and not get dis-heartened or should we just leave him wear
    his "tenners" and tough it out?????
    
    Thanks
    
    JaKe
    

Jake,

I don't have kids, but here's my suggestion.


I'd go to a place where you can pick up either some youth soccer
shoes, or all-purpose turf shoes, cheap.

In Connecticut we have a place called Marshalls, and I picked up a
pair of adult soccer shoes (molded soles) cheap (like ~$20).

There's no need to fork over $40 for something the kid might even
outgrow during the season.

I don't know what they have in Pittsburgh (although watching Cops
on Saturday night it looks like there's lots of dead people in 
East Pittsburgh) but I'm sure you must have something like our
Marshall's or Bobs.


When the kid stops growing, then shell out mucho bucks for top of the
line soccer cleats....

JMHO,
'Saw

    
>    I wonder, is there some sort of spiked shoes for bedroom olympics?  :-)
    
Call Godek's.

Adidas Flankers work well.  

'Saw

PS  Don't forget the electrical tape.....8^)    

    re 'Saw
    
    We do have "Marshall's" about 1.5 miles from my "still under
    remodeling" house.
    
    Re "COPS", just what did they show about East Pittsburgh?????
    Did it have to did with the "Hollywood Show Bar"??
    
    Re Hawk
    
    This is his second year at soccer.  Lasted year he played indoor soccer
    at the "Y" and this year, he's doing outdoor soccer, also with the "Y".
    
    The main reason I asked this question is the expense and as 'Saw
    mentioned, the fact that he could outgrow and expensive pair of shoes
    in less than a year.
    
    Thanks for the replies
    
    DIH!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake -
    
    I would say go ahead and get the kid cleats.  Kids are more likely to
    stick with a sport if they have appropriate equipment for it.  Proper
    equipment means you develop good habits from the start and are more
    successful, which means you keep at it longer, etc. etc.
    
    As for the expense and frequent turnover for growing feet......Check
    with both the "Y" and your local youth soccer organization to see if
    they have any sort of used equipment swap.  Ask parents of kids in the
    next age-group up if they have used boots that they'd be willing to
    sell.  Make sure they fit and are in reasonable shape, but go for used
    boots.
    
    To this day I am convinced that my son stuck it out with soccer because
    his very first year in the "never played before" division, his team won
    every game.  He looked back to that through some years where his team
    *lost* every game, as proof that he couldn't be that bad.
    
    And have fun with it.  It's a great game.
    
    A&W

    A&W
    
    Thanks.  
    
    I think the reason my son likes soccer is his 15 year old cousin.
    He absolutely IDOLIZES my nephew, who has also played soccer since he
    was 4 years old.  My nephew just made the high school team this year as
    a sophomore, and sometimes plays on both the JV team and the Varsity
    team on the same days.   Anytime we have a family get-together, my son
    takes his soccer ball along and *FORCES* Brian to play soccer with him. 
    Brian seems to enjoy it and also gives my son a lot of good advice.
    
    One thing we don't like about soccer, so far.  My wife helped coach the
    indoor teams lasted year and Robbie, when anything didn't go his was,
    would run to mommy and latch on to her leg.  This year, we take him to
    soccer, drop him off, and then leave for the first half hour.  Then
    we'll sometimes sneak back in once the game starts and try and stay
    back far enuf so he doesn't see us in the event of him getting bumped
    or something that would set him off.  
    
    Re proper equipment:  The coaches suggested getting Robbie shin guards
    so that his lower legs would survive.  We bought one of the better
    styles of guards, and he was all happy about getting them.  He wore
    them around the house for the 3 days till he got to go play soccer, but
    then, on the first Saturday morning that he had them, he refused to
    wear them.  He said that he'd look "Stupid" and it took us some major
    threats to make him wear them.  He thought that he would be the only
    one with them.  Finally, we did get them on him and when he got to the
    field, every other kid there was also wearing some rendition of shin
    guards.  Dilemna cured, he wore them and now we have no problems
    getting him to wear them.
    
    I just wish I was back home right now 'cause my sife said he palyed
    *GREAT* Saturday and I wish I could go watch him play.
    
    JaKe
     
                                                          

    JaKe
    Better send yo spalpeen to Brazil if'n you want him to be like Pele
    If ya send him to Argentina, his idol might be Maradona (sniff, snort,
    ack)  8^) 8^)
    
    HTH and all that rot
    MikeL
    

    More news about the selection proccess for '94, from the Boston Globe.
    Like previous World Cups, only 12 cities will host games. The list has
    been narrowed down to a "priority list" of 19. Starting November 1 two
    seperate FIFA delegations will visit the sites and make final
    reccommendations. 
    
    The thing I find strange is that some of the cities mentioned are 
    considered long-shots, since the only suitable stadium has a field of 
    artificial turf. Some, like Giants Stadium have already stated that it 
    would be too impractical/costly to put in a grass surface and widen the 
    field. 

    Philadelphia has an old decrepit stadium dating from the turn of the 
    century (Kennedy Stadium?) that was recently condemned, and will be 
    torn down soon. The only other venue is Veterans' Stadium, where the 
    USA played English club Sheffield Wednesday in August. Not only does it 
    have a turf field, but it is also used by the Philleis during the summer, 
    so I don't see how it could still be on the list.
    
    Anyway, here is the list of cities: * means the stadium is artificial
    turf.
    
    Foxboro (Boston)      * Philadelphia       * E. Rutherford (New York)
    New Haven             Chicago              * Detroit
    Columbus, Ohio        * Seattle            San Francisco
    Washington DC         Atlanta              Miami
    Orlando, Florida      Tampa, Florida       * New Orleans
    * Dallas              ** Kansas City       Denver
    Los Angeles
    
    ** If chosen, Kansas City will be changing the surface to grass next
    year.
    
    Since cities will be paired into 6 groupings, there are really only a few 
    possibilities: 
    NORTHEAST: 2 from Boston-New Haven-New Jersey-Phladelphia.
    MID-ATLANTIC/SOUTH: 2 from Washington-Philadelphia-Atlanta
    FLORIDA/SOUTH: 2 from Miami-Orlando-Tampa-Atlanta
    SOUTH: Atlanta-New Orleans or Dallas-New Orleans
    * MIDWEST/WEST: Chicago-Detroit, Chicago-Columbus, Chicago-Kansas City, 
       Kansas City-Denver, Kansas City-Dallas
    WEST COAST: 2 of Los Angeles/Pasedena-San Francisco-Seattle
        
    * Chicago is a definite, since the USSF recently moved their headquarters 
    there. It is also likely that the US will be based there

    If I were to make a prediction, I'd say that it would be A) Boston 
    being paired with New Haven, B) Washington and Atlanta, C) Miami and 
    either Tampa or Orlando, D) Dallas (if they grow grass in the Cotton 
    Bowl) with either New Orleans or Kansas City, E) Chicago and Columbus 
    (or KC if New Orleans gets the nod) and F) Los Angeles with either San 
    Francisco or Pasadena. 

    Unfortunately, Denver and Seattle are really too far from any of the 
    other cities to make it work. The format calls for 3 of the 4 teams in
    a group to travel between the 2 cities for 3 games in 9 days. It isn't 
    a big deal for the teams to hop on a plane, but the country's supporters
    will not be able to fly between cities that far apart.     

    Tom

The folks in New Haven (the Yale Bowl) are very excited about the 
possibilities of this happening.

I hope so, because it's only about 45 minutes from my house!

'Saw

    
>    ** If chosen, Kansas City will be changing the surface to grass next
>    year.
    
    That's really good to hear.  It's lame that KC has 2 beautiful open-air
    stadiums but they both have carpet.  There's places like Atlanta and
    San Diego that have to share a stadium for baseball and football but
    still have grass.
    
    Another problem Denver may have is the Colorado Rockies will be playing
    in Mile High in '94 (unless the new stadium is ready by then, but
    doubtful).  I don't really care if Denver gets anyway.
    
    Joe
    
       

 �   Philadelphia has an old decrepit stadium dating from the turn of the 
 �   century (Kennedy Stadium?) that was recently condemned, and will be 
 �   torn down soon. The only other venue is Veterans' Stadium, where the 
 �   USA played English club Sheffield Wednesday in August. Not only does it 
 �   have a turf field, but it is also used by the Philleis during the summer, 
 �   so I don't see how it could still be on the list.
 
 I'm not close enough to the Philly grapevines any longer to know the
 exact answer to your question but there is actually another place to
 play in town.   Franklin Field on the Penn campus could be an
 excellent place to play World Cup soccer.  It has had plastic before
 but I don't know if it still does.
 
 You are right that John F Kennedy Stadium in South Philly has been
 condemned and will be torn down to make room for the new arena that
 will replace the Spectrum.   It was built back in the early 1920's as
 Memorial Stadium, I believe, and it's in horrible shape now.   If it
 had been kept in good shape, it would have been perfect since it
 seats well over 100,000 people.   Largest outdoor stadium on the
 entire East Coast.
 
 It'll be sad to see it go since it's got so much history.   One of
 the Dempsey-Tunney fights was fought there.  The annual Army-Navy
 game was held there for ages, it seemed like.   Also "Live Aid" was
 held there in 1985.   And I was there with a million other tearful
 maniacs the day after the Phillies won the Series in 1980.
 
 The Vet is out unless they rip up the fake stuff and lay down God's
 green grass.   I sincerely hope they do that someday.  If it takes
 the World Cup to provide the motivation, so be it.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I had forgotten about Franklin Field. Didn't the Iggles play there
    before the Vet was built? I guess I wasn't thinking of FF since the
    soccer game in August was played on hte turf at the Vet, although
    considering this, I'm not sure why. 
    
    The problem about ripping up the turf for grass in the Vet still won't 
    make it available for the WC. The Phillies will be playing there, and 
    even if the schedule were to be set up so they might have a west coast 
    trip then, it still wouldn't give enough time. The reason most of the
    sites are football stadiums is that they need about a month's time for
    the whole tournament. Also, FIFA wouldn't accept the idea of playing 
    games on a field with a baseball infield covering part of it. (These 
    soccer people are real purists when it comes to grass.) Still, it 
    wouldn't be a bad idea at all to put in grass, even if Philly doesn't 
    get WC games. As you pointed out, lots of FB/BB stadiums use grass. 
    
    Re Kansas City - The story I had always heard was that the Royals
    always wanted turf so the field would be more playable than grass even 
    after heavy rains. The Royals draw a large % of their fans from 3+
    hours away, so they didn't like the idea of people driving that far on
    an overcast day, but having the game cancelled due to a wet field.
    Don't know why the Chiefs opted for turf, but a recent study showed
    that they pay more for maintenance of the turf than they would for
    mowing/maintenance of a grass field. Lamar Hunt, the Chiefs owner is a
    big soccer fan and has put up beaucoup $$$ for the KC & Dallas bids, so 
    I wouldn't be surprisd to see the Chiefs playing on grass within the 
    next coupe of years.
    
    Are they really planning on replacing the Spectrum? Seems to me like
    it's a pretty decent arena, and not that old - built in the mid-60s. Is
    this a cave-in to another threat from the Flyers/Sixers owners that
    there aren't enough luxury boxes? 
    
    Tom
      

 �   Are they really planning on replacing the Spectrum? Seems to me like
 �   it's a pretty decent arena, and not that old - built in the mid-60s. Is
 �   this a cave-in to another threat from the Flyers/Sixers owners that
 �   there aren't enough luxury boxes? 
 
 Yep, you got it.  There are some other issues but they all revolve
 around cash.   Rents, concessions, parking, luxury boxes, you name
 it.   Sixers owner Harold Katz strong-armed the city into building
 the new place by threatening to go over the river to Camden.
 
 The Spectrum will remain, I believe.   Ice Follies, Grateful Dead,
 Jimmy Swaggart, those kinds of things ...
 
 And, yes, the Eagles did play at Franklin Field.  They won the 1960
 NFL title over the Packers there.  As a boy, I saw several Eagles
 games at Franklin Field in the late 1960's.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    The WC folks are looking at both FF and the Vet. Both have offered to
    put down a grass field on top of the current artificial surface for the
    soccer games. The Phillies would also take off on a month long road
    trip to allow for the switch from turf to grass to turf. I wish they'd
    just tear it up and put the damn grass in.
    
    Dennis
    

    I hadn't heard that one. Hmmm, after the Expos finishing out the season
    on the road and the Astros take off a month during the 1992 season for 
    the Republican convention, I suppose a month long road trip is old hat.
    The only variation of a baseball team doing this was the Yankees
    offering to play part of their season in Shea Stadium, but that's a
    moot point now.
    
    I don't think it would work to put in a grass field in a month, and
    have it be firm, good footing. Usually grass takes a while to "take."
    
    Tom

    
    >>                                            <<< Note 13.110 by IAMOK::WASKOM >>>
    
    >>As for the expense and frequent turnover for growing feet......Check
    >>with both the "Y" and your local youth soccer organization to see if
    >>they have any sort of used equipment swap.  Ask parents of kids in the
    >>next age-group up if they have used boots that they'd be willing to
    >>sell.  Make sure they fit and are in reasonable shape, but go for used
    >>boots.
    
    I know it's been awhile since this was entered, BUT, I figured I'd
    update this.
    
    Since I've been in Colorado Springs for what seems like forever, whilst
    having a phone se...er I mean conversation with my MRS., I passed on
    the suggestion about used soccer shoes.  A week later, she asked the
    woman who is in charge of the Sat. morning instructional league if she
    knew anyone who might have a pair of used shoes for sale.  Well, the
    woman in chg's son just grew out of a pair she bought lasted year, so
    she had a pair.  The best part, they're like brand new, have enuf room
    that my boy can weat them for this year and next, but fit tight enuf
    now to be fully functional, and originally cost the lady $48, and she
    GAVE them to my wife and wouldn't accept a penny for them.
    
    My wife said my son is ON CLOUD NINE, and loves the shoes.
    
    Thanks
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake -
    
    Glad to hear it, and thanks for letting us know the outcome.
    
    May your kid enjoy the game for lots of years to come.
    
    A&W

    The 5th ranked UNC-Charlotte soccer team beat #18 NC State 2-0 last
    night before 2000+ fans in Charlotte.
    
    UNCC is unbeaten this year.
    
    	--dan'l

    The UNCC 49ers have been among the top college soccer teams in the
    country for a few years now. I think they wer in the fianl 4 last year.
    
    Tom

      The Women's NCAA division 1 final four will be played this Saturday
    and Sunday at North Carolina. NC has hosted this event 6 out of the
    last 9 years. According to our local paper NC didn't even put in a bid 
    this year but was awarded the event anyway. That weekend the final
    football game will be played against Duke. The on Sunday the men's
    basketball team opens against The Citadel. Big crowds are expected.
    this means the soccer events have been moved to Saturday and Sunday
    NIGHT. Carolina is the only 1 of the 4 teams that ever plays under the
    lights.
    
       Colorado College campaigned diligently for the final four. They have 
    made the final four 5 out of 7 years and I feel they should have been 
    given a chance. According to the newspaper Wisconsin turned in a bid
    but was far from enthusiastic and Virginia plays on turf and that is an
    automatic no-no.
    
        I doubt that Colorado Springs would have turned out a crowd
    anywhere near what they will get in NC. But it seems they are stacking
    the odds in NC favor like they really need any help.
    
    
        Saturday      Wisconsin VS Colorado College (No. 2)
    		      Virginia  VS North Carolina  (No. 1)
    
    Wes
    

Go Lady 'hoos!

    re: Wes (NC stacking the odds)
    
    Sniff, sniff.  Boo hoo!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    RE .128
    Don't know what kind of crowds they get in Chapel Hill for women's
    soccer, but you're right that the Springs wouldn't have turned out that
    much of a crowd.  They don't even have any bleachers at the soccer
    field down at CC.  Plus there's snow on the ground now with more
    expected by the weekend.  I saw a few highlights of CC's win over
    Stanford last weekend and it was played in a mess of mud and snow.
    
    UNC has won 8 of 9 NCAA titles and compiled a 132-1-7 record since
    their title loss in 1985.  One of CC's losses this season was to UNC in
    September, 1-0.  
    
    Ice hockey and women's soccer are the only 2 sports that CC competes in
    at the division I level.  All other sports are division III.
    
    
    Joe
    

    
    	Go Lady Tigers!  Whup those Tar Heels......if ya beat Wisconsin.
    
    	Claybone

    re .130
    
      I'm not implying that NC is stacking the odds but the selection 
    committee is. 
    
      And do you think their contribution is partially due to the coach
    being from NC. Most of the players were from NC.
    
    
    Wes

    Women's soccer:  Wisconsin 1, Colo Coll 0 and North Carolina 5,
    Virginia 1.  Championship to Carolina, 3-1 over Wisconsin
    
    Field Hockey:  Old Dominion 3, Maryland 1 and North Carolina 1, Penn
    State 0.  Championship to Old Dominion, 2-0 over Carolina.
    
    Men's soccer:  SMU 3, Rutgers 2.  St Louis 4, North Carolina 0.  Santa
    Clara 3, Fresno 0.  Yale 4, Seton Hall 3.  Virginia 2, Hartford 1 (3
    OT).  NC State 4, Furman 1.  Indiana 2, Wisconsin 0 (OT).  UCLA 3,
    Portland 0.  Quarterfinals nexted Sunday are Virginia vs Yale, St Louis
    vs NC State, Indiana vs SMU and UCLA vs Santa Clara.
    
    Division 2:  Florida Tech 2, Tampa 1.  Cal Poly-SLO 4, Seattle Pacific
    3.  Franklin Pierce 2, Keene State 1.  Sonoma State 3, Missouri-St
    Louis 1.  National semifinals are Florida Tech vs Franklin Pierce and
    Sonoma State vs Cal Poly-SLO.
    
    Division 3:  Trenton State 3, Babson 1.  Cal-San Diego 1, Ohio Wesleyan
    0.  National title to Cal-SD, 1-0 over Trenton State.
    
    John  

    Quarterfinals:
    
    St Louis 3		NC State 0
    Virginia 2		Yale 0
    Indiana 3		SMU 2
    Santa Clara 2	UCLA 1
    
    Semifinals:  Virginia vs St Louis and Santa Clara vs Indiana
    
    John

    The United States Women captured the first ever Women's Soccer World
    Cup.

    Division 1
    
    Virginia	3	St Louis 2
    Santa Clara	2	Indiana	 0
    
    Final:  Virginia 0, Santa Clara 0, Virginia wins on penalty kicks, 3-1
    
    Division 2
    
    Sonoma State 2	Cal Poly-SLO	1
    Florida Tech 2	Franklin Pierce	1
    
    Final:  Florida Tech 5	Sonoma State 1
    
    John

>    
>    Final:  Virginia 0, Santa Clara 0, Virginia wins on penalty kicks, 3-1
>    

Go Lady 'hoos!!!!!!


Sing the Fight Song, Bob...c'mon!


8^)

    Uh, Frank, this was men's soccer, not women's soccer.
    
    John

Duh...

You're right.  I'd forgotten that the Lady 'hoos lost now that I think
of it...

I guess I should start buying that cup of coffee on the way in, instead
of getting here and noting while waiting for the pot to brew here.....


Color me stupid,
'Saw

    Congrats' to the Hoos!  Keep them NATIONAL TITLES in the ACC!!!!!
    
    B.A.
    
    
    
    
    

 An honest-to-God *NATIONAL* title.   In Charlottesville, no less.  Pinch
 me, I must be dreaming.
 
 Shows you how title hungry I am ... It's a boring sport that almost nobody
 in America cares about but I still feel *DAMN* good about about my
 champeen Wahoos.
 
 Virginia Soccer Rules !!!
 
 Bob Hunt

    A local business owned by a UMASS Alum has committed to donating
    $750,000 over the next 5 years to the UMASS soccer program.

    
    What business is that, the Amherst Boutonnierre Co?

Word is that Boston/Foxboro was selected as one of the sites to host World Cup
soccer in 1994! "USA Okay, The Nation's Nicepaper" said that there woud be a 
noon press conference to officially announce the cities, but...

In past world cups they have chosen 12 cities in 6 pairs, so a Boston/New Haven
or New York/Jersey would make the most sense. However, the British magazine,
"World Soccer" is speculating that only 8 cities will be chosen in order to 
minimize travel expenses for fans.

I'll post an update as soon as I head anything definite

Tom

Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.news.urgent
Subject: World Cup sites named
Keywords: soccer, men's professional
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 92 13:09:16 EST
Lines: 26
Approved: [email protected]
Location: illinois, michigan, missouri
ACategory: sports
Slugword: worcup
Priority: regular
Format: breaking
X-Supersedes: <[email protected]>
ANPA: Wc: 248; Id: z3824; Sel: ilscp; Adate: 3-23-1205pcs
Codes: &scpbil., &scpbmi., &scpbmo.
Note: urgent


	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Nine cities, including one with a domed stadium,
were named hosts Monday for soccer's 1994 World Cup in the United
States.
	FIFA, international soccer's governing body, and World Cup USA 1994,
the local organizers, said the winners were: Washington; Los Angeles;
Dallas; Pontiac, Mich.; Chicago; East Rutherford, N.J.; San Francisco;
Orlando, Fla.; and Foxboro, Mass.
	The Silverdome in Pontiac was one of the two domes among the field of
19 finalists bidding for a World Cup venue. This will mark the first
time the World Cup has gone indoors. However, in keeping with World Cup
tradition, the game will be played on a grass field and not a synthetic
surface.
	Two of the winning cities had offered more than one stadium. The nod
in those cases was given to the Rose Bowl outside Los Angeles and
Stanford Stadium outside San Francisco.
	The venues for the opening and closing games, as well as all other
rounds, will be announced in July.
	FIFA and 1994 World Cup USA had said eight to 12 venues would be
selected. Those failing to be named a host were: Atlanta; Columbus,
Ohio; Denver, Kansas City, Mo.; Miami; New Haven, Conn.; New Orleans;
Philadelphia; Seattle; Tampa, Fla.
	Joselph Blatter, FIFA's general secretary, said nine venues will
allow for the best exposure of soccer and ease the travel problems for
all involved in the World Cup.
	``It was the best sporting solution,'' he said.

Dread,

Word around here was the New Haven's chances were poor, and that
the Meadowlands was going to get the nod.


Also, there was an EXCELLENT article in the paper this Sunday by 
Jerry Trekker, the 'exotic sports' guy (well, soccer mostly, some rugby).

Anyway, Trekker was bashing the soccer media outside the USA for complaining
about the fact that some fields for the Cup will be narrower, in order
to fit into our stadiums.  

Trekker's rebuttal was that these journalists are the same people who
wet themselves over a club team in their home nation that dominates the
league, while playing on a narrow, sloping field, for half of their
games...

Good article.


Dread, keep us informed....


'SAw

Damn, if they HAD named New Haven, it would have been a 45 minute
drive, and we could have had a MAJOR party at the Sawmill.....


8^(


'Saw

Wow! 

Well, I know where I'll be in the summer of 1994. Saw, I wouldn't mind seeing
the article. If you're feeling really ambitious you could type the article into 
the notes file. If not, that's OK.

I've been getting a little annoyed about the overseas media harping on the 
quality of venues. Their main gripe is that many of the fileds won't be the 
minimum of 75 yards wide. On the other hand, if Fenway park was an English 
soccer stadium, it would be one of the newer, most moderniSed, best maintained 
grounds in the country! There is a big fuss about the Taylor Report, forcing all
teams to upgrade their stadiums to all-seater. Some teams complain that they 
don't have the cash to do it. 

Anyway, I think the foreign visitors will be impressed with the stadiums in terms
of fan comfort, the infrastructure and the enthusiasm from a country that isn't
supposed to have soccer fans.

The thing I don't get is what the format will be. Sure, LA/Pasadena, Candlestick/
Palo Alto, Foxboro/Meadowlands, even Chicago/Detroit makes sense, but I don't
see where they can fit Dallas, Orlando and Washington. I was surprised that 
Miami wasn't linked with Orlando and perhaps Kansas City or with Dallas. 

Tom

�Damn, if they HAD named New Haven, it would have been a 45 minute
�drive, and we could have had a MAJOR party at the Sawmill.....
    
    Get real, 'Saw.  Even less people would show up to see a soccer game
    than the rugby game get togethers we've tried to plan.

Dread,

I'll try to type in de article mon, but wit all de jobs I got mon....8^)

(I'll try to remember tomorrow morning).


Dread, you're in chaarge of gettin de get-togetter goin'.....8^)


'Saw

    Well, I sure  hope that if you guys are planning a get together to
    watch that sissy sport, you are at least going to go only to make fun
    of the pee-pee smoochers on the field.  (many isfh)
    
    Jd

Funny you should axe, JD. The WhiteFish (at least some of us) ARE plannin' a 
git-togevver at Foxboro for a couple of soccer games, but you're NOT invited :-) 
Italy vs Ireland and Ireland vs Portugal will be played in June. The Italy game 
is on Thursday June 4th, and the Ireland-Portugal match is for Sunday the 7th. 
The Sunday game will prob'ly be the bigger outing, but I'm definitely going to 
catch the Azurri too. We'll probably bring a keg and a BBQ grill, Guinness,
Portugese sawsidjes and take it from there. 

A lot of the details are sketchy, but once we know if employee services is 
discounting tickets, I'll have more info. The Sawmain even said he might make 
it up for the trip, so we KNOW it'll be a serious roll-fest!

Oh yeah JD, for a wussy cross country runner, you got a lotta gonads (NOT!) 
makin' remarks bout soccer players. Soccer players hafta have the same kind of
endurance that you runners need, but it takes a lot more skill, finesse, 
strength, quickness, etc. than just runin'...

:-)

DreadMon

Hey Seattle Mon,

Doncha know dat Bob Marley said dat whereever two or tree of you 
are gattered in my name, mon, dere you be havin' a party....

So, me 'n Dread and de rest of da Rastas will be havin a time.....



No problem.  I'm gonna go see my main main Dread Tom.  I might even
bring someone to the game...



Feelin' i-ree already,
Rasta'Saw

    
    Call goes to Stadium Management later this week to volunteer to work. 
    I decided that after not volunteering to work at the Olympic soccer
    when it was at Harvard in 1984 I'm going to go after anything special
    like this or the basketball that was just held.
    
    John

Well, John, when Dread Tom and I are there watching, we'll be looking
for you!

Despite what the international soccer press says, this is a marvelous, once
in a lifetime opportunity for the USA....

I just hope there are some exciting games in venues near me...


'Saw

    Can we start planning the get-together NOW??
    
    Oh boy, oh boy..........
    
    A&W

Should be interesting to see how they handle the natural grass requirement in
the Silverdome.  If it works out, maybe they'll do it for NFL games.

Talk has been that they will build up a natural turf field on TOP of
what is there.

I agree, it will be interesting.


There is ONE artificial turf soccer field that I have seen in Europe, and
it was in the English league, I believe at Luton Town.  The commentators
tend to derogatorilly refer to it as "The Plastic Pitch"....


I'm glad Foxboro went to natural grass a while ago.  The pitch should be
well established in time for the cup....


'Saw

�I'm glad Foxboro went to natural grass a while ago.  The pitch should be
�well established in time for the cup....

My recallection is that one of the main reasons they went to natural turf was
for the WC.  The weather should be good for WC, so the pitch should be fine.  

      There's a scathing article in this morning's Boston Globule
     about the cities selected for the World Cup. Two of the big-
     gest soccer cities in this country (if there is such a thing)
     Miami and Tampa were ignored but cities like Boston with an
     inferior facility and Pontiac with a (ugh !) dome were chosen.

      Personally, I think the only people who have cause to rejoice 
     about the World Cup coming here are the local merchants and in-
     somniacs but it's a shame that here we have another event that, 
     like Olympic basketball, has been sullied by corporate greed.
    

Didn't FIFA make the selections?

    
   >> Didn't FIFA make the selections?
     
      No, the selections were made by the US World Cup '94 Organizing
    Committee.

    
    Tommy, does the article say how Miami and Tampa were shut out due to
    corporate greed?  Not to cast aspersions, but it's my impression that
    cities like Miami and Tampa as warm-weather vacation spots are usually
    the beneficiaries of corporate greed more often than not (we don't see 
    no Disney Worlds or Super Bowls around here).  I guess if the 
    soccer-mad cities that got shut out were Buffalo or Akron or something, 
    I would have more sympathy...
    
    Boston does have a very large and diverse population of foreign
    nationals, for what it's worth.  I don't know about all of the other
    cities that were selected, but I do think that there's merit in the
    Boston selection, as those soccer exhibitions last summer showed.
    
    glenn
    
                                                                    

    
    Only a wimp soprt like soccer would call its fields "venues."  Tr�s
    chic.
    
    BOSS

    All the Bud Lite ads in Foxboro Stadium will have to be changed to
    Evian.  HTH.
    
    Hawk
    

    
 >>   Tommy, does the article say how Miami and Tampa were shut out due to
 >>   corporate greed?

      Well Glen, the committe picked Orlando so that they could have a 
      Disney tie-in but they ignored Tampa which has a strong professional
      soccer tradition and Miami which has more foreign nationals than Boston 
      and Orlando combined.

 >>   Not to cast aspersions, but it's my impression that cities like Miami 
 >>   and Tampa as warm-weather vacation spots are usually the beneficiaries
 >>   of corporate greed more often than not (we don't see no Disney Worlds 
 >>   or Super Bowls around here).

      To me that qualifies more as common sense than greed. Do you want to
      ride a roller-coaster in New England in February. I don't. Nor would
      I want to spend Super Bowl week looking out of my hotel room at the
      frozen landscape of beautiful Foxboro, Mass that happenin' burg.
     
 >>   Boston does have a very large and diverse population of foreign
 >>   nationals, for what it's worth.  I don't know about all of the other
 >>   cities that were selected, but I do think that there's merit in the
 >>   Boston selection, as those soccer exhibitions last summer showed.
    
      The fact remains that Sillyvan Stadium is inferior to both Joe Robbie
      and Tampa and just about every other stadium in America.  
                                                                    
    

    The Olympics call all their sites venues regardless of how mainly or
    unmainly the sport is.
    
    John

Well, my Welsh friend in Atlanta said this morning that he was "Sick as a 
Parrot" that his city wasn't selected. I *KNEW* it wouldn't be easy to narrow 
this down, but I have to agree that this is pretty bone-headed.

First of all, ever since the format went to 24 teams in '82, they have always 
had 12 cities in 6 pairs. In Italy, there are penty of first-class soccer stadia
and they were all reasonably close. In more spacious Mexico, (1986) some of the 
grounds selected were less than US-standard. I thought it would be hard to pick
12 deserving cities, but to take only 9 makes even less sense. The idea of fewer
sites was to reduce travel, but it actually increases it.

In the 12-city format, I was figuring a New York-Boston group, with the "A" team
based in NY. NY's 3 first-round games would be A-B, A-C, A-D. Boston would get
B-C, B-D and C-D. The advantage of being seeded as an A tem means that you (and
your fans) don't have to travel until the later rounds. 

With this setup, 2 four-team groups share 3 cities. All 8 teams will play in
each city. Of course, teh cities are spread in order to maximize travel expense
and player fatigue: Boston-Detroit-Chicago; New York-Washington-Orlando; Dallas-
Los Angeles-San Francisco. 

Call me crazy, but they could have solved a lot of problems if they added 
Atlanta, Miami and either Kansas City or New Orleans. This way the groups would 
have been: Boston-New York; Washington-Atlanta; Miami-Orlando; Chicago-Detroit;
Los Angeles-San Francisco and Dallas-New Orleans or Kansas City. 

BTW, the late Joe Robbie WAS one of the more influential figures in bringig the
WC to the US. JR Stadium was built with soccer in mind, unlike the NJ 
Meadowlands, where the field is too narrow. Miami has hosted countless matches
involving Argentina, The USA, Bayern Munich, Paraguay, Columbia, Switzerland,
Canada, Colo Colo of Chile (Western hemisphere club champions) and many others.
No doubt any Latin American team playing there would enjoy tremendous support.

Orlando has a sizeable Brit community. I wouldn't be surprised to see England
play a friendly or 2 there next summer.

Tom 

 >>   Boston does have a very large and diverse population of foreign
 >>   nationals, for what it's worth.  I don't know about all of the other
 >>   cities that were selected, but I do think that there's merit in the
 >>   Boston selection, as those soccer exhibitions last summer showed.
    
  >    The fact remains that Sillyvan Stadium is inferior to both Joe Robbie
  >    and Tampa and just about every other stadium in America.  
    
    That's a completely different story then.  The selection of Sullivan 
    Stadium and all of its inferiority says nothing for "corporate greed".  
    If anything, an inferior stadium would cost the organizers money; no
    corporate boxes and the like.  A lousy stadium leaves the matter as a
    very simple one: will the people in the area come out and support the 
    games, without the frills?  If the committee sold out in this case to 
    popular (not corporate) demand then I have no problems with that.
    
    I can understand Miami's and Tampa's gripe if Orlando unfairly landed the
    Florida plum, but I don't know why that's supposed to reflect poorly on
    Boston's selection.  I did get a chance to read the column in the Globe 
    and the writer claims that "Foxboro Stadium has become a desirable and 
    viable venue simply because of the momentum of a crowd of 51,273 that 
    attended the US-Ireland match last June".  What, a demonstration of
    enthusiasm for international soccer (nearly double the support of the
    average Patriots' game last year) is supposed to be a black mark
    against Boston?
    
    glenn
      

    
    Foxboro may be an inferior stadium, but the turnout for lasted June's 
    exhibition soccer game between the US and Ireland was a *huge* success,
    thus making Foxboro/Boston a viable choice to hold World Cup soccer. 
    
    Just a thought, here - maybe Foxboro or some of the other cities were
    considered good choices because they are *not* known as soccer hotbeds. 
    This could be great exposure for the game, having the games in cities
    where even given the fact that soccer isn't the most popular sport it's
    still drawing tremendous crowds with tons of rabid fans.   8-)
    
    DreadMon Tom,  I am looking into securing tickets for the
    Ireland/Portugal game on 7 June, but haven't finalized anything.  I'll
    keep you posted.
    
    
    Cath
    
    
    

    For a while it looked like Seattle might get a bid - but things fell
    apart here.  The state youth soccer organization put up $77,000 to try
    to secure the bid.  The WC officials were impressed with Husky stadium,
    and liked the fact that Seattle was close to Vancouver and British
    Columbia.
    
    Things started to fall through with UW officials started to back off on
    the use of Husky Stadium.  They never signed a guarentee - and they
    were afraid that putting natural turf over the artificial turf might,
    in some way, hurt the playing surface.   So, what was once a promising
    bid turned into nothing, and youth soccer lost its investment.  
    
    JD

It's going to cost them about $1 million to cut some of the seats out of the 
corners in order to make the field wider. Seats will be added to the top of the 
end zones and possibly at the field level in the middle of the sideline. This
is nothing compared to renovations needed at Giants Stadium or Pontiac 
Silverdome. 

The USA-Ireland game last June drew over 51,000, larger than almost all the
Patriots crowds over last few years. No doubt the opposition had something to 
do with it, but it was still a bigger crowd than equally popular teams like AC
Milan (2 years in a row the World Club Champion), Argentina, Mexico and Juventus 
drew in other cities. The Boston bid was well deserved.   

Sure, other cities should have been selected, and I feel bad for fans there. I
have a friend from high school who now lives in Philly and had no interest in 
soccer until I convinced him to check out the USA-Sheffield Wednesday match at 
the Vet. He had such a good time that he was volunteering on the Philadelphia
organizing comittee. They didn't have a good site, but still, he was pretty 
bummed about the whole thing. But he WILL be going to NY and possible Boston.

For those of you who don't 'preciate soccer, fine, but you have to realize that 
this is a very big deal all over the world, bigger than the olympics. Judging 
by the way this had been bungled, I'm afraid that once agian, the overall 
ignorance of the US organizing committee has shown the rest of the world the 
wrong side of our national personality.

Tom

re .171

Cathy, so YOU are the person in employee services I spoke with... OK, it just
dawned on me. Now if I knew it was you I would have pretended I was Cam Neeley 
and... Uh, never mind

Yes, definitely look into the Ireland-Italy, Ireland-Portugal games ! 

Thanks,

Tom/DreadMon

    
  >>  That's a completely different story then.  The selection of Sullivan 
  >>  Stadium and all of its inferiority says nothing for "corporate greed".  
  
      I never said it did. What I did say was that the selection of Orlando
      over Miami or Tampa was motivated largely if not soley by corporate
      greed. As for the selection of Sullivan Stadium, the attendance at
      the Ireland-USA speaks more of the huge Irish-American population 
      here and there love of all things Irish than of large spread support
      for soccer. They sure as hell wouldn't have drawn fifty thousand fans 
      for USA vs. Pakistan.
    
      Atlantans as well as the good folks of Miami and Tampa have cause to
      feel like they've been jobbed. This would have been a perfect opportunity
      for a dry run before the Olympics but the folks in charge were just
      too damned shortsighted.

I'm not so convinced that the fan interest will be there for a whole series of
matches in Foxboro.   The USA/Irelend game was a success largely due to the 
large ethnic population it drew.  I'm not so sure how a game like, oh say, 
Germany vs.France would do.

re: Employee Activities

Cajun Cathmeister loves to send out those "we're sorry, but all tickets for 
______ event are gone" letters!        8^)

=Bob=

I agree with Dread about 9 cities not cutting it.


You know that the Meadowlands was a shoe-in, because FIFA wanted New York.
But to only have 9 sites is really stupid.


The rest of the world was flabbergasted when the USA got picked for 1994.
Any person with half a brain would have known that not only are the eyes
of the world upon us, but those eyes are naturally cynical, condescending,
and probably quite right for being so....


The only good thing that can be said (as Dread mentioned yesterday) is
that all of our stadia are probably luxurious compared to most in Europe...


'Saw

    Hey DreadMon, ya wanna get in good with the CajunCathBabe, offer to
    take her to a wedding.  Gotta take a ticket though (and don't lose it
    while waiting!)...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    Tom, is your Welsh friend in Atlanta a DEC empolyee?  If so, his
    first name wouldn't happen to be Andy would it?
    
    	--dan'l

�      Atlantans as well as the good folks of Miami and Tampa have cause to
�      feel like they've been jobbed. 
    
    Those poor Atlantans.  All they have to look forward to now is hosting
    the Olympic Summer Games.  Oh the shame.  And those poor folks in
    Tampa.  All they have gotten recently is a Pro Baseball team.
    
    I still don't see how the US bungled.  Not too long ago we heard that
    the only reason the US would be in the World Cup is if they hosted one. 
    They then proceeded to do satisfactorily on thier own merit.  I'll bet
    the US will bungle this one the way the bungled the 1984 Summer Olympic
    Games.

�I'm not so convinced that the fan interest will be there for a whole series of
�matches in Foxboro.   The USA/Irelend game was a success largely due to the 
�large ethnic population it drew.  I'm not so sure how a game like, oh say, 
�Germany vs.France would do.
    
    I've heard they are taking that into account.  Foxboro will see teams
    like Ireland, Italy, and Portugal due to the large concentration of
    people with links to these countries in the area.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the US has completely bungled it,
but they are not starting off too well.

The cities they chose are, as Dread said, pretty far apart for convenient
travel....



As to fan attendance, I have a feeling that there will be a lot of foreigners
travelling to the States for the events.   


I hope we can show the world that we can host the Cup, and that there are not
too many complaints from countries where soccer is a mainstay...


'Saw


PS Can the Rugby World Cup be far behind???? 8^)

�The cities they chose are, as Dread said, pretty far apart for convenient
�travel....
    
    It's a big country.  If you cluster the games too closely together you
    risk ticking off fans in another part of the country and you risk
    diluting your fan base and getting poor attendance at individual games. 
    I didn't hear anyone complaining too hard about the Rugby World Cup
    being held in 5 different countries.  Heck, it's quicker to get from
    Boston to Washington, D.C than it is between towns half as far apart in
    some places in Europe.
    
�As to fan attendance, I have a feeling that there will be a lot of foreigners
�travelling to the States for the events.   
    
    I wouldn't be surprised at all.  I thought I heard that the awarding of
    these games to Foxborough will mean a shot of $100 million to the arm
    of the New England economy.
    
�PS Can the Rugby World Cup be far behind???? 8^)
    
    We can only hope.  I doubt it, though.  Only 6,000 fans showed up in
    Hartford, CT to watch Scotland play the US.  That pales in comparison
    with the 53,000 that showed up to watch a soccer game in Foxborough.

    
    > I've heard they are taking that into account.  Foxboro will see teams
    > like Ireland, Italy, and Portugal due to the large concentration of
    > people with links to these countries in the area.

    That's what I meant when I said that Boston and New England in general
    have a very *diverse* population of foreign nationals.  (I could just
    as easily say that Miami supports soccer matches only because of the 
    Latin population and the claim would hold no more merit than with the 
    Irish in Boston).  You can be guaranteed that if any of the above 
    countries are participating at Foxboro (and probably more), you won't 
    be able to find a ticket.
    
    Myself, I'm not a huge soccer fan (I did play as a kid), but if tickets
    are available at the $25/ticket for preliminaries I'm hearing about, 
    I'll go to see soccer played at the World Cup level, with a World Cup 
    atmosphere.  It'll be one hell of a party, with the whole world 
    watching...
    
    glenn
    

    > I hope we can show the world that we can host the Cup, and that there
    > are not too many complaints from countries where soccer is a
    > mainstay...
    
    My sentiments exactly.
    
    When will they determine what teams play in what cities?
    
    
    py

Yeah, I was bummed about that 6K....



Okay, this is Chainsaw's Necessary List of Entertainers for the 
Opening Ceremonies:

	
	o Ray Charles and the Uh-huh Girls

	o The Swedish Bikini Team

	o Andrew Dice Clay

	o Howard K. Stern

	o Lawrence Welk

	o Red Hot Chili Peppers

	o Dave Bruebeck, Wynton Marsalis, Dizzy Gillespie

	o Wayne and Garth

	o Gregory Peck doing the Narration

	o Kristy Yamaguchi, the other skating dude and the dudette from Boston

	o Luciano Pavarotti

	o Kim Basinger

	o Roseanne Barr
	
	o Up With People


Any others I missed??????


'Saw

Glenn --

	Party with the World watching?  Let's go get some orange wigs,
	make some signs, nude up and paint our bodies red white and blue,
	and drink beers.


Paul --

	Starting sometime soon the qualifying will start.  There are certain
	amounts of teams from certain regions that are eligible.

	When all teams have qualified, they have a seeding drawing to
	determine the pools.

	The the pools are assigned to venues.  FIFA does that I think....


'Saw

     Figures some guy with "PATE" for a node name would come to the
    defense of the US World Cup committee [isfh]. This has the potential
    of being truly embarassing for the Boston Committee. There may
    be quite a few folks who aren't soccer fans who'll go just be-
    cause it's a happening but I'm betting that there are more people
    who are like me and saw the World Cup on tv last time around and
    could barely stay awake through it. We're talikng boring with a 
    capital Z here. If their main hope is that the different ethnic groups 
    will support their respective teams what happens if'n those teams
    get shipped elsewhere ? Think Uruguay vs Zimbabwe is gonna pack 
    Sillyvan ? I doubt it. And once those foreigner get a load of Sillyvan
    they'll be bumming in a big way. And how the hell are they gonna get 
    there in the first place ? It's gonna be a mess.
 
     Mac, whether or not Tampa got a baseball team or not has nothing to do
    with the fact that they were more deserving than Orlando. And correct
    me if I'm wrong but wasn't there an event in Los Angeles that preceded
    the 1984 Games that served as a run through.

     And Glen, the comparison between the Latins and Haitans and other
    Caribbean nationalities in Miami and  the Irish in Boston doesn't wash. 
    The groups in Miami love soccer and would go just because it's the World 
    Cup not because one team or another is playing although certain teams 
    would make tickets much more scarce.
    

re Cajun Cathmeister, Just a hunch, but I dunno about a weddin' Y'see, mah wahf 
prob'ly wuddint like the idear of me carryin' on wif uvver wiming, but then 
again, if you're talking soccer tix.....

Re: Dan'l, do you mean you know "Andrew D. Wicks, Atlata's Most Infamous 
Welshman"? (that's his p-name) I met him in the parking lot in Foxboro at the 
Ireland match. Some of us in the ::FOOTBALL notes file were discussing the 
match, and he had some flyer miles saved, so he decided to fly up on the spur 
of the moment for the game. We got there early, and we were relaxing with a 
bee-uh and this guy comes up and says in an impecable British accent, "Excuse 
me, do you work for Digital?" To this day, I have no idea how he found us in 
the lot with 50,000 people. He's looking into seeing "what courses are 
available" for another junket this way in June. Andy was indded "Sick as a 
Parrot" this morning...

Re a few back: Germany - France WOULD be a big draw - trust me. First of all,
they are two first-rate teams. Any soccer fan, regardless of ethnic identity 
would want to see that one. There were lots of non-Irish in the stands last 
June. Also, most of the WC tickets are distributed through the Football 
Asscociations of the qualifying countries. Season ticket holders for Liverpool
and Arsenal, etc. will enter a lottery to see who can buy available Eng-ger-land
tickets. It's sorta like the NCAA basketball or if you're a NFL season ticket 
holder and your team goes to the Super Bowl. Travel agents also get quite a few 
tix, since they will be making deals for hotels, airfare and game tickets. 
France and Germany also are pretty wealthy countries, so there are plenty of 
people there who can afford a nice junket to the USA, especailly if they've 
never been here before. Any of the "Big" countries - Italy, Argentina, Brazil 
(Everyone's fave), England, perhaps Ireland - will draw crowds wherever they 
play.

The lesser countries are the ones that might not draw huge crowds, but part of
that is made up for in the way the WC is (or was structured). Since money rules
all sporting endevors, it shouldn't be a big surprise that 13 of the 24 
countries will be from Europe. Three (of 10 countreis total) in South America
are guaranteed a spot,and a 4th has to playoff vs the Central American/Caribbean
champ (Mexico?) and Oceana. So that leaves the US (host) 3 African countries and
2 Asian countries. Countries are rated 1-4. Until now, Asian, African (used to 
be only 2, but now there are 3) and North/Central American countries always 
occupied the #4 spots in each group, so they would never play each other. All 
the other games involved European and South American teams. 

In Italia 90 the Napoli-Bari group had Argentina, USSR, Romania and Cameroon.
Argentina is a big draw, and the USSR were finalists in 1988. Romania were a
solid, but unspectacular team and the "Loony 'Roons" surprised everyone. Not 
a lot of tix were sold in andvance for Cameroon-Romania (because Italy was 
playing on TV at the same time) The game eventually sold out, but this is the 
kind of thing that can happen when 2 relatively unknown teams without a lot of 
travelling fans play.

All in all, it's a crap shoot, since no one knows who will qualify until around
November of 1993. If they were smart (which we now know thye are not) thye would
do their best to make certain countries were paired up with areas where their
ethnic groups are. For example, Portugal will be a big draw at Foxboro, but not 
in Chicago or Dallas. 

>    And those poor folks in
>    Tampa.  All they have gotten recently is a Pro Baseball team.
    
    Miami is the one getting a pro baseball team, Tampa is getting an NHL
    team next year.
    
    Joe
 

�This has the potential
�    of being truly embarassing for the Boston Committee. 
    
    You mean the way they embarrassed themselves at the last soccer game
    they hosted?
    
�If their main hope is that the different ethnic groups 
�    will support their respective teams what happens if'n those teams
�    get shipped elsewhere ? 
    
    It won't happen.  There are already reports that where teams play will
    be in part decided upon by where they will draw well.
    
�And once those foreigner get a load of Sillyvan
�    they'll be bumming in a big way. And how the hell are they gonna get 
�    there in the first place ? It's gonna be a mess.
    
    First off, it hasn't been named Sullivan Stadium for a few years now. 
    Secondly, access and facilities in this stadium, despite it's
    drawbacks, will be head and shoulders above alot of venues outside of
    this country.

re foreigners in Sullivan:

	Compared to some of the English grounds, Sullivan is plush.
	For one thing, there are seats.  A lot of the English grounds
	don't have seats in a good part of the stadium.

re boring games:

	This past WC was marked by a lot more defensive play, emphasis
	on not making mistakes rather than taking the chance, and
	stuff like that.

	FIFA has been experimenting with rules changes I think to open
	up the game more.   I think the offsides rule has recently
	been changed, so that a man EVEN with the last defender is onsides
	now.

	Hopefully soccer learned from 1990 and will open things up a bit.



I don't see them having a problem filling Sullivan....


'Saw

    MBTA will run special trains from South Station to the stadium.  No
    problemo.
    
    John

    Tom,
    
    I am indeed talking of Mr. Andrew Wicks.  He and I go way back.  I'll
    have to fill you in on some of his American Football exploits tonight.
    
    	--dan'l

Dan'l,
it IS a small world... What a riot! Fill me in on the man who says "Wot about 
them Braves, then?"
   
> �If their main hope is that the different ethnic groups 
> �    will support their respective teams what happens if'n those teams
> �    get shipped elsewhere ? 
>    
>    It won't happen.  There are already reports that where teams play will
>    be in part decided upon by where they will draw well.
    
Mac, no one knows who will be playing where, that's why this is a little riskier
than past WCs. In Italy in 1990, the 6 "Seeded" teams (Brazil, Argentina, 
England, Italy, Germany and Belgium) all earned their positions on previous play
except Italy, who was the host. Italy would have been there anyway, since they
are clearly one of the best teams. Each of these teams had their "Home" city,
where they played 3 games agaisnt the #2, 3 & 4 teams from their group. The 
other nearby city in the group also had 3 games, 2-3, 2-4 and 3-4. This is 
another reason why this 9-city setup makes little sense. 

Qualifying matches will be underway in various parts of the world fairly soon.
The thing is, national teams don't usually play a lot of games. The players
are in the leagues from Sept - April, and National games are sandwiched in 
between breaks in the league and during the off-season (summer in W. Europe). 

The qualifying rounds in Europe contain 6 groups of 6 or 7 teams, with the top
2 from each group joining Germany (current World Champion) as the 13 European
teams. In South America, Chile is banned, but 3 teams make it from 2 groups of 
4 and 5 teams. The 2nd place team in the four-team group must play the winner 
of a playoff between Oceana and the Central American/Carribbean second-place 
team (most likely Mexico, Honduras or Costa Rica.) The winner from that 
region naturally qualifies, so that makes 18 teams, plus the US as host = 19. In 
Africa, there are 9 preliminary qualifying groups, and the winners are then 
divided into 3 groups of 3 teams each. The winners of these groups go to 
the US, making it 22 teams. A similar setup is in place for Asia, yielding 
the 2 qualifyers from there. 

Kinda complicated, eh? You could probably say it's like the NCAA basketball 
tournament. You can buy tickets for the Wista Centrum, but there's no way to
know who will be playing in the games almost until the tournament starts. At 
least in the WC there is 6 months to make travel plans.

Tom 

                                                               
    As I understand it, the tickets to the World Cup games will be going on
    sale this summer, two full years before the games start and almost two
    years before anyone knows *exactly* who the participants are (they
    might know what brackets the teams will come from).  Chances are
    a large percentage of these tickets will be sold before anyone knows
    what's going on.  We'll probably see who the *real* soccer fans are (the
    ones who line up before they know who's playing), and it just might end
    up that a large percentage of the tickets are sold overseas such 
    that it won't even matter where the US soccer fans are.
    
    I'd probably be willing to go in for a couple of tickets without even 
    knowing who's playing, just to experience it.  I don't even know what 
    my nationality is, for crying out loud (more accurately there are so 
    many that one way or another I'm sure I'll be able to wardlevane my 
    way to a team-- Czechoslovakia, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, 
    England-- west of the USSR I've got just about all of them covered.)
    
    glenn
    

    Cameroooooooooooon!
    

This is the FIRST article I promised to Dread....




(reprinted from the Hartford Courant, Sunday March 22, 1992 w/o permission)




                   Americanization for the World Cup
                   ----------------------------------


The International Soccer Federation (FIFA) is steadily, and slowly, 
coming to grips with what the U.S. World Cup is going to be like.

When the world governing body awarded the 1994 World Cup to the United
States four years ago there was speculation that FIFA didn't truly know 
what it was getting into.  FIFA clearly wants to spread the soccer gospel
to the last major sports market that ignores the game, but there was an
air of unreality about handing the jewel in its crown to a nation that
didn't even have media interest or a succesful league.

Now, two days from the announcement of sites for the World Cup 1995, FIFA has
learned a few things.  Along the way they've been accused of engineering a
coup within the U.S. Soccer Federation to put their candidate, Alan Rothenberg,
in charge of both the USSF and the World Cup planning.

It's no secret that FIFA has taken an active, although behind the scenes
role, in organizing the tournament.  Rothenberg and other World Cup '94
organizers have been jetting into Zurich, Switzerland, on a regular basis
over the past year as plans have been formulated.

And the U.S. organizing committee has made sure that its representative was
present at the South American Championship in Chile last summer and at the
African Nations Cup in Senegal in January.

The first payoffs are starting to come.  Two weeks ago, FIFA announced it
would relax the length and width guidelines for the 1994 championship, a 
move that can save huge sums of money in stadiums designed primarily to
house football.  While some critics will howl, the decision to let a Giants
Stadium or a Pontiac Silverdome in the elite final package with 71-yard
field widths is hardly going to cause earthquakes around the globe.  It
is common sense to let some of the best U.S. sites into the event without
forcing costly renovations.

Sure, some of the world soccer press will scream "FIFA is changing the
game for the Americans," but you can ignore most of that.  The same
writers will spend an equal amount of ink on the glories of seeing an
underdog pull a major upset in their own domestic competitions, 
especially if the triumph comes on a the little club's unusual, tiny,
sloping playing field.

The FIFA decision is not a license for the U.S. World Cup to alter
the game radically.  It is a realistic assessment of what is available
in the United States.  FIFA may not have fully understood what it would
have to compromise when the Cup was awarded in 1988.  It does now.

Similarly, the number of sites that actually host the finals could be
a surprise.

FIFA wants 12 venues in 1994 and it wants those sites spread across the
country.  It is easier to do that in the abstract than in fact.
What the American organizers must deal with is long-distance travel between
sites, four time zones and the potentially high costs of setting up press
centers, ticket outlets, offices and VIP facilities all over the country.

And don't be mistaken: dollars are very much part of the World Cup 94
equation.  It is hardly news to anyone that the recession is a problem
for those planning a major sporting extravaganza.

World Cup '94 hasn't sold its domestic television rights, nor has
it found a long line of sponsors wanting to throw money in its direction.

So don't be stunned if the World Cup takes place at only eight or 10 venues.
Indeed -- even with 12 sites -- it will take lots of American creativity to
schedule the 52-match competition so teams, fans and the media can spend
a fair, but not exhausting month chasing the championship.  That's easier
said than done, too.

We'll start to get some answers March 23 when the sites are named.  Area
fans seem certain to be within easy reach of the tournament because,
whether New Haven's bid succeeds or not, it figures at least two of the
three area venues (Foxboro, Mass; Giants Stadium in East Rutherford, N.J.;
Yale Bowl) will be chose to host games.

Then, in July, FIFA will release the 1994 championship schedule.  We won't
know the teams involved, but we will know dates and sites as well as the
basic tournament format.  That will make World Cup 1994 look and feel
very much closer.  It will also help the world understand exactly what
the United States can deliver to soccer.

This is a follow-up from yesterday's paper. 

The author in BOTH instances in Jerry Trecker.


(reprinted from The Hartford Courant, Wednesday, March 24, 1992
 w/o permission)


            Still In the Middle of the Action
            ---------------------------------

The International Soccer Federation (FIFA), which took a gamble when it
awarded the 1994 World Cup to the United States, waded into potentially
more troubled waters Monday when it announced a nine-site format for the
biggest sporting event in the world.

Departing from the proven format of 12 cities co-hosting six first-round
groups in the 24-team finals, FIFA and World Cup USA are packaging their
52-game tournament quite differently.

FIFA general secretary, Joseph Blatter said the format will give the 
public a greater chance to see the top-seeded sides.  It will be
interesting to see how national managers such as Italy's Arrigo Sacchi
or Germany's Berti Vogts feel about a World Cup where even the top teams
have to travel in the first round.  Don't bet on their endorsements.

There probably will be little complaint about the sites, especially overseas,
because most venues such as the Rose Bowl, Cotton Bowl and Giants
Stadium are prominent.  So,too, is the Silverdome in Pontiac Mich., to
lend an air of exotica for the many who have never seen one of American's
space age stadiums.

The announcement brought mixed feelings to New England, sadness for New
Haven, joy for Foxboro, Mass.  On balance however, soccer fans in this
part of the world got even better news that might have been expected
when FIFA unveiled the sites.

Blatter's statement that "we felt it was an absolute must that the World
Cup be played in New York" explains why Yale Bowl lost out.  Once FIFA
agreed to any necessary compromises to bring in Giants Stadium, it was
obvious New Haven was going to finish second.

New England, however, didn't lose.  The awarding of matches to Foxboro
Stadium means the region's soccer fans will be able to see games at
two regional sites.  And it got even better when U.S. Soccer Federation
president Alan Rothenberg said Giants Stadium and Foxboro might not be
part of the same three-stadium grouping that will serve as scheduling
keys for the 52-match format.

Rothenberg said tentative plans call for Orlando, Fla., Washington and 
Giants Stadium to be bracketed together, while Foxboro joins Pontiac and
Chicago in another package.  Dallas, Los Angeles and San Francisco form
the remaining group.  The schedule will be released in July.

Connecticut fans are in between two sites.  That would mean an opportunity
to see Italy (if based in New York) and Germany (if based in Chicago)
or both Poland (in Chicago or Foxboro) and Argentina (in Orlando or New
York).

That's all speculation, because we don't know any of the 24 finalists
except the United States and Germany.  That New York and Foxboro may be
in separate groups means fans in this area will have the chance to see
at least four of the top seeded teams.

The nine cities all have something in common:  none house baseball teams.
In FIFA's smaller-is-better format, stadiums have to be available for the
full month of the competition: baseball commitments undoubtedly eliminated
cities such as Philadelphia, and Denver and Miami, whose expansion
baseball teams begin play next spring.

Until we see exactly how World cup USA and FIFA put together the
schedule, the nine-city decision is only partly explained.  Once starting 
times and travel commitments of the participants are known you'll hear
some complaints from coaches who figure out Orlando and Washington aren't
next door, any more than Texas is a suburb of California.

It will be equally interesting to see what travel agents thing about
moving the legions of fans from one place to another during the first round,
to say nothing of what comes after.  That eight-hour train ride from
Naples to Torino for the 1990 semifinals in Italy may look luxurious come
1994.

Those worries are for the future.  And New England fans can let others
do the fretting because we're sitting pretty.  No, we didn't get the
ultimate prize of a World Cup in Connecticut.  But we're going to be
right in the middle of the action nevertheless.

Regarding the relative quality of stadiums around the world, I can only speak of
the ones where I've been. 

In Belgium, I used to go to games at Parc Astrid, home of the club RSC 
Anderlecht. Anderlecht are to Belgian soccer waht the Yankees used to be in 
the 1950s. As the richest and overall most successful club, they have been able 
to sink money into stadium improvements. Although the stadium dates way back, 
each of the 4 main stands have been rebuilt at different times, resulting in a 
comfortable, reasonably modern 40,000 seat stadium that, while not as luxurious 
as the most modern US stadiums, it is better than a lot. The refreshment stads
and restrooms are well spread out, and youcan smell the sweet aroma of the 
"Gauffres," a sweet tasting waffle, as well as sausage "boudins" and shish-kabob
brouchettes. I've also been to the stadium in Liege, and industrial city in the 
South. This rickety old wooden grandstand is a fire trap, especially considering 
that a lot of Belgians smoke. This one is about 20,000 and has a roof covering 
all the stands (and poles). I've also seen the Belgian national team play at 
Heysel, the infamous stadium that was home to one of the worst disasters in 
soccer history, where 45 people were crushed when a wall collapsed in 1985. 
Heysel has since been torn down, and the "Diables Rouges" now play their home 
internatinal maches at Parc Astrid.

In England, I've been to Wembeley Stadium, where the national team plays and all
major cup finals are held. It was built around 1925, and has not seen a whole
lot of renovations other than when they put bench seats on what were standing 
room "terraces". The thing that really amazed me was that I had a 6-pack of beer
in my bag, and no one bothered to check. I could imagine someone getting mad at
the ref after a bad call, throwing a bottle, but hitting someone in the haid 20
rows in front. A lot of the English grounds, particularly for smaller clubs, are 
more like Liege than anything else. Refreshment stands? A wooden shack under the
stads that serves warm coke out of a 1 liter bottle in warm weather, or coffee
during the cold weather.

In Italy, it's a different story. The stadiums there are just as, if not more
modern than in the US. The Bari stadium was built for the 1990 WC, and is widely
regarded as one of the best in the world. I went to the Coppa d'Italia between
Juventus and Napoli (on my honeymoon, no less) in the Olympic Stadium in Rome.
It was built in 1960, but it's been modrnized. We also went to San Siro/Guiseppe 
Mezza stadium in Milan, which is also first-rate.

Basically, I don't think anyone is going to be horrified at Foxboro stadium. It
really isn't all THAT bad, and they have tried to spruce it up over the past few
years. They put up those barracades so that people walkin in the aisles can't 
see, so they won't stand and watch the game, blocking the view of others. By and
large US stadiums (even Foxboro) are fairly modern, have decent refreshment/
restroom facilities and cater more to the "family" element than in some parts 
of the world.

Tom  

Dread mon,

You are making me hungry with all your talk of refreshments in Belgium!

And boy do some of those names sound familiar -- Liege, Anderlicht...
You didn't mention Genk...


Our stadiums are not bad at all in comparison to most of the world....


'Saw

Sawmain,

Never been to the stadium in Ghent. During the 2 1/2 years I was in Belgium I
probably went to about 10 Belgium Internationals, 25 Anderlecht games in the 
Belgian League, as well as maybe 10 European competitions. One that I remember 
most vividly was in the UEFA Cup semifinals against Nottingham Forest. 
Anderlecht lost the first match in England 2-0. Forest were known for having a 
good D, so it didn't look too good for the Purple & White on the return leg. 
They started Enzo Scifo, whose paernts are Italian but grew up in Belgium, 
in his first match ever. He was 19. Think he was nervous? He scored 2 and 
set up another as Anderlecht booted Forest, out of the Cup 3-0. There was a 
Polish international, Czernatinski, and Goedjohansen, who was the Iceland 
captain for several years, as well as several Belgian and Dutch players.

Now their brightest young star is Lamptey, from The Ivory Coast, and the 
Brazilian Oliviera. A lot of African talent has made it's way to the Belgian
legue in recent years.

Scifo was later selected to play on the Belgian national side, and has been 
consistently one of the better players fro Belgium over the years. I also saw 
him score against Denmark in a qualifier for the '86 WC in Mexico.

In a lot of ways, sporting events are very similar the world over, once you
remove the surface differences. The atmosphere at these games reminded me a 
little of big-time college footbal in the South. The crowd usually wear the
team's colors and sing songs going to, from, and during the match.

Tom 

Was Nigel Clough playing for Forest at the time?


I never saw Belgian league.  I used to get Dutch League (they'd almost
always show Eindhoven, Ajax and one other team.  I saw Rota a couple
of times too).  That was on Super Channel.  Then of course, I'd see the
Barkley's show.

I'd get ALL the results of all the leagues from the little 30 minute
Gillette Soccer Roundup show....


I did see the Scotland-France WC qualifier on Canal+ though.  Leighton,
the Scottish keeper was unconscious that night as he shut out the 
French.  I believe that Mo Johnson beat Joel Bats twice and Scotland
beat France 2-nil.


Should have tried to make my way to England to see 'pool play...


'Saw

I don't think young Nigel was with Forest at the time. This was I think the 
spring of '83.

The better teams in the Belgian league - Anderlecht, Standard Liege, Ghent, FC
Bruges - are pretty strong, and hold their own in the various Cups. Bruges is
in the UEFA final 4 and Anderlecht is still in the thick of the Champions' Cup.
The weaker teams are pretty bad, but they don't have money to spend on players
and they don't attract a lot of fans. Anderlecht averages 35-40,000 per game.
The lower teams might get 3,500 on a good night.

Tom

Okay, you were there long before I was.  I was in Europe in 88 (remind me
to tell you the story of going back over the week after Lockerbie) and
Nigel was just up and coming...   I did see him get tossed from a game,
if I remember correctly...


'Saw

This is an article that appeared in the Boson Globe of April 15th:

[Headline] Foxboro may entertain pre-World Cup
    
    All six former World Cup champions have been invited to compete next year  
in a pre-World Cup tounament that could include matches played at Foxboro 
Stadium.
    "There has been a lot of discussion, but we are about 60 days short of 
announcing anything," said Bill Nuttall, general manager of national teams 
for the US Soccer Federation. "Sites have not been determined, but World 
Cup venues will be given priority."
    Nuttall said England and Germany have dates available in June 1993, but 
Argentina, Brazil, Italy and Uraguay are not confirmed.
    "We have agreements in principle," he said. "Everything will fall toether 
very quickly once we get to a certain point."
    The tournament will be part of the US team's schedule, which could include 
as many as 30 matches next year.
    The event will be similar to the Munidalito, a tournament with former 
champions that had been conducted between World Cups, but recently was 
discontinued.
    "We are working on a four- to six-team format," Nuttall said. "But even if 
we can't get everyone, just having England, Germany and Italy would be a 
big event."
    Boston Soccer'94 and Foxboro Stadium have a five-year agreement to stage 
matches. The groups are working with the USSF to conduct the US Cup 
tournament with Ireland meeting Italy on June 4, and Portugal on June 7.
    The US has never defeated Argentina, Brazil, Germany or Italy in a full 
international match. The US upset England, 1-0, in the 1950 World Cup in 
Belo Horizonte, Brazil, but has lost four other times.

    

    NESN has replaced their Saturday morning English League telecasts with
    the Italian League Game of the Week (10-11:30 am).
    
    
    py

Oh.

Is the broadcast in English?


Sports Channel still shows English League Soccer on Sunday evenings, with
a re-run on Saturday morning....

    re .208:
    
    > Is the broadcast in English?
    
    Don't know 'Saw, haven't seen it yet (just saw an ad for it during a
    Red Sox game the other night).
      
    
    py

    When I lived in Boston they would have a broadcast from the RAI feed
    (Italian national network channel) on some Itlaian cable channel based 
    in New York. They would show live matches from the Serie A (1st division)
    every week. Great stuff! Too bad this is starting up now, when there
    are only 3 or 4 games left (in Italy).
    
    The Italian League is the best league on the planet in terms of
    prestige and player salaries. Players earn about what baseball players 
    make here. Stadiums are first class and crowds are big. Teams are allowed 
    to have 3 non-Italian players, and every one of them, even on the bad 
    teams, is a bona fide star on his country's national team. There are 
    quite a few world-class Germans, English, Yugoslav, Dutch, etc. 
    Internationals playing outside their country. Yet there are NO Italian 
    national team members playing in leagues other than the Serie A.
    
    Ciao,
    
    Dreadarino                                         

    
    ESPN is showing 'German Soccer Weekly' on either Monday or Tuesday
    afternoons, narrated by none other than - Mr. Toby Charles !
    
    No one understands the BOON-DESH-LEEG-AH like Toby.
    
    - acp

>    ESPN is showing 'German Soccer Weekly' on either Monday or Tuesday
>    afternoons, narrated by none other than - Mr. Toby Charles !
>    
>    No one understands the BOON-DESH-LEEG-AH like Toby.
    
Toby Charles is CLASSIC!

    	I used to tape German Professional Soccer when it was on 
    	every Sunday morning. Great soccer. It's not on at that
    	time anymore, however.
    
    	Scott

They had some GREAT names too:

	Karl-Heinz Rumminegge was one of my favorites.  


'Saw

    Yeah! Those were the days of pre-cable soccer on PBS sunday morning. I
    really got a kick out of Toby Charles. He would always crack me up with
    comments like, "That announcement to the crowd, if you don't understand
    German, was to tell the supporters not to shoot rockets on to the
    pitch."
    
    Once, the NY Cosmos went on tour and played various European teams like
    Bayern Munich. Charles referred to them throughout the gme as "FC
    Cosmos." I used to like Bouroussa Moechengladbach and Shalke 04. They were 
    the big German teams in the '70s that supplied a lot of the players to the
    German national team that won the World Cup in 1974 and were runners-up
    to Italy in 1982.
    
    Tom         

    
    
I've been dragging my feet with this for a while, but it's time to get this 
thing organized. Some of us are going to the Portugal vs Ireland soccer 
game at Foxboro, and this is the scoop: The game is on a Sunday afternoon, 
June 7th. The plan is to meet at a convenient Digital site and take as few 
cars as we can, since they charge $10 per car. We can also arrange to bring 
food, beer, etc. We can work out those details later. Tickets are $20, and I 
will order them this Friday, so if you want to go, let me know how many. I 
can put them on a credit card and you can mail a check to me. 

So far, the people from this notesfile who have shown interest are: 
    Me
    Walt Ashe 
    Allison Waskom & Ancient Rugger
    Frank "Chainsaw" Way

    Several members of the WhiteFish soccer team will be there, as well as
    a few other DEC and non-DEC people. Naturally, any friends, spouses, 
    spouse-equivalents, (in)significant others, etc. are all welcome.
    
    So if you are interested send me mail -- last call!
    
    Tom

DreadTom, send me mail for some amazing secrets on how to safely store tickets.

Hawkerfield

    Yeah, Hawk, I know all about YOUR safe-storage methods. Somehow the
    orderly mob we had on Pats day with the vouchers just wouldn't fly at
    this one. We'll more than likely get a keg for the pickup truck, a
    couple of grills, and get there as soon as the gates open. If'n you know 
    the WhiteFish, you know why I couldn't picture everyone dividing into
    three equal-sized groups, staying together long enough to walk up to the 
    correct gate, presenting the voucher to the uniformed customer-service 
    professional at the gate, getting to our seats, having to 'splain to
    the Irish/Portugese people sitting in our seats that, even though they
    got a good deal on the tickets from some guy in a bar in Haverhill,
    they are no good, and the voucher is what REALLY counts, etc....
    
    Never happen, trust me.
    
    Besides, I got too many jobs to worry aboot, so I ain' gonna let dis
    ting get t'me. Time to lay it right back, feelin' I-ree!
    
    DreadMon                                                       

    The draw for this summer's Olympic Soccer tournament in Barcelona was 
    made yesterday. It looks like this:
    
    Group A	   Group B	   Group C	     Group D
    
    Italy	   Spain	   Sweden	     Denmark
    USA		   Colombia	   Paraguay	     Ghana
    Poland	   Egypt	   Morocco	     Mexico or Honduras
    Kuwait     	   Qatar	   South Korea       Australia/Holland winner
    
    Holland drew 1-1 against Australia away, and play the second leg in 
    Utrecht May 24th.
    
    The top 2 teams from each group advance to the quarterfinals, and play
    off from there. Hard to say what the USA's chances are, but they have
    beaten everyone in North/Central America. I'd say they should make the
    second round, but I don't know about getting any further than that.
    
    Tom
         

Dread, 

I'm confused.

I didn't see England/Ireland/Scotland (or I guess just UK) in that list.
Surely they are a fitba powerhouse, so why are they not in the list?

Did they choose not to compete????


'Saw

    The Republic of Ireland didn't win their qualifying group (Cain't
    offhand remember who did -- wait a sec. it was Poland who beat them)
    FIFA/UEFA recognizes 4 "countries" in the UK; England, Scotland, N.
    Ireland and Wales. The Olympic people recognize the UK, so a team from
    any of those 4 places wouldn't be representitave of the whole UK. There
    was talk of having a UK-wide olympic team, but that would be a
    nightmare to organize, especially considering the political/tribal
    animosities there. The other idea was to have a playoff among the
    4 with the winner representing the UK, but the IOC wouldn't go for it
    'cause they are a bunch of stuffy old pratts.
    
    Basically, national sides have the "A" team, "B" team (no age limit),
    Under-23 team, which doubles as the Olympic team, Under-21, Under-19
    and Under-17. The idea of the Olympic team was NOT to have the same
    players as the World Cup team, but players who might be on the next
    World Cup team. Portugal won the past 2 under-21 World Cups, so it
    looks like they are an "up and coming" team. We'll probably see some of
    Portugal's future stars vs Ireland in Foxboro on June 7th.
    
    Tom

Read a little blurb in the paper about a new rule in international soccer.

It seems that in an effort to speed up the game, FIFA is now making it
illegal to backpass the ball to the goalie.

The penalty is an indirect kick inside the penalty area.


Dread, have you heard about this?  When does it take effect?


'Saw

    Sawmain,
    
    I had heard they were going to do something, and this "no backpass"
    rule had been talked about quite a bit. I didn't realize that it was
    officially a done deal. The upshot of this rule is that defenders can 
    head or chest the ball back, but if the keeper picks up a back pass then 
    an indirect free-kick will be given. FIFA apparently decided to do this 
    after examining a match from the 1990 world cup in which the ball was
    actually only in play for only 45 minutes (must have been one of the
    Argentina games).
    
    I don't know about this this rule change. I think in the long run, it 
    will have an adverse affect, particularly in Britain. The way the game 
    is played there, with the forwards as the first line of defense, puts
    enormous pressure on defenders in possession; with this new rule,
    very few teams will try to play their way out of defence since, with
    the way back to the keeper now blocked, the risks will be too great.
    I believe we'll see a lot more teams adopting the punt upfield from the
    'keeper, as this will now be the safer option. In other words, while
    this rule might produce a bit of excitement, it will be at the expense
    of encouraging good soccer.

    Tom

Sounds like a pretty bogus rule, because I don't see that happen
all that often.  

FIFA must be smokin' the same stuff the Rugby folks are, considering all
these bogus new rule changes....


'Saw

    There was a lot of time wasting in recent big games like Italia '90 and
    the Champions' Cup final in 1991, where Red Star Belgrade were totally
    outclassed by Olympique Marseille. RS played 6 at the back and made
    very little attempt to attack. They waited for the shootout,a nd won
    the PKs. It was a real shame, because it rewarded the most cynical
    approach. 
    
    FIFA was thinking of trying to do something to liven it up. However,
    using the keeper as a backpass option is often a good play for a
    defender. I don't think the rule was all that well thought-out. A
    better rule that would deal with time wasting would be one similar to
    basketball, where, once you've crossed the midfield line, you can't
    backpass into your own zone.
    
    As far as the game becoming cynical and "boring," what it will take is
    dynamic PLAYERS to liven it up. Rule changes alone won't do it. Much as
    Babe Ruth transformed the way baseball was played, Gretzky modernized
    hockey and Pele stopped the "Catennaccio" in it's tracks, it will take
    some new star to get teams out of the habit of playing not to lose,
    rather than playing to win. Sadly, Diego Maradonna was probably the
    first player that comes to mind, but....
    
    Tom  

I agree with what you say Dread.


I watched the Italy-Portugal game, and while there were no goals, at least
both sides were trying to attack.


Hope Sunday's game is good.....


'Saw

    I'm looking forward to a good game on Sunday (and Thursday) too. I
    can't decide if'n I should wear my Glasgow Celtic shirt or Brazil to
    the game (wearing my Azurri shirt on Thursday). I just talked to A&W, 
    and she's looking forward to meeting us. She is flying out of Providence 
    to Chicago at 7:00, so she'll leave straight from the game.
    
    I didn't see the USA-Ireland game, but I heard it was a good one. (USA
    won, 3-1) Roy Wergele, the man with 8 countries, finally decided that
    his best shot for a World Cup was with the US. He scored the 3rd goal,
    which they say was a spectacular one. Wergele played for Queens Park
    Rangers in the English League, but was sold to a second division team
    toward the end of the season.
    
    Wergele was eligible to play for no less than 8 countries, before
    declaring for the US. He had been flip flopping back and forth, and the
    USA desperately needed a scorer for Italia '90, but Roy still had
    delusions of replacing Gary Lineaker in the England lineup (He ain't
    that good...) He was born in South Africa (1) is a UK citizen (England,
    Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland - 5) has an Irish grandparent (6) and a
    German father (7) and is married to an American (8)  
    
    Tom

>    can't decide if'n I should wear my Glasgow Celtic shirt or Brazil to

Can I wear my Liverpool shirt, or would the crowd call me a 
"bleedin' scouser"?

I figure I can wear it in honor of John Aldridge....;^)

    
>    I didn't see the USA-Ireland game, but I heard it was a good one. (USA
>    won, 3-1) Roy Wergele, the man with 8 countries, finally decided that
>    his best shot for a World Cup was with the US. He scored the 3rd goal,
>    which they say was a spectacular one. Wergele played for Queens Park
>    Rangers in the English League, but was sold to a second division team
>    toward the end of the season.

My main man John Harkes scored from 12 yards out with three minutes
to go, on what was said to be a wondrous goal...

    
'Saw

    
    "wondrous goal," what a sissy sport.
    
    BOSS

>    "wondrous goal," what a sissy sport.
    
It was, from what I heard.

Of course, not as good as the goal he scored that was in the running
for Goal of the Year lasted year in England....


'Saw

              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 19.2143             The SPORTS Get Togethers Topic             2143 of 2143
CAMONE::WAY "Two Bullets and a Lady"                 15 lines   2-JUN-1992 15:32
                 -< Got an EXTRA ticket for the game Sunday. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, Important Announcement:

	I have an EXTRA TICKET for the Soccer Game on Sunday.

	If anyone is interested, please let either me or Tom Hill
	know.  

	As I have paid for it already, if anyone is interested in
	it, you'll owe me $20....


I'll cross post this in the soccer and tix topics.....


'Saw

    Harkes has been pretty steady all around, and a good reason Sheffield
    Wednesday finished in 3rd place their first year in Div. 1. He didn't
    have a very good game against Ireland (lost, 4-1) when they played over 
    there in March, according to someone who went. Ireland's midfield is 
    supposedly it's strongest area, so that may have had something to do with 
    it. The US is 1-1-1 vs Ireland in the past year. They have also beated
    the CIS, lost to Scotland and Brazil.
    
    No problem about the Liverpool shirt. At USA-Ireland last year, I saw tons 
    of different shirts from various youth teams to AC Milan, Sweden, Brazil, 
    Argentina, England, a ton of Celtic shirts, Ireland, ManU, Leeds, Everton, 
    and yes, Liverpool. No Rangers, I wonder why....
    
    Tom

>    No Rangers, I wonder why....
    
Must've been because it's BLUE ;^) ;^) ;^)

    
    Went to the Italy - Ireland game yesterday. All in all, a very entertaining 
    game and a good atmosphere. Itlay won 2-0, and the crowd was about
    35,000 which isn't bad for a weekday afternoon.

    Our seats were in the 11th row, right off the penalty area of the goal 
    Italy attacked in the first half. They were putting more pressure on the 
    net and had a few decent chances. Judging by this game, the cautious 
    "Catennacio" style is a thing of the past. Italy was making a lot of runs, 
    using give-and-go, and even some one-touch passing. Very attractive and 
    entertaining style.

    A lot of Italy's more familiar names were missing. Roberto Baggio didn't 
    play and Toto Schilacci didn't even make the trip. With the relative 
    unknowns fighting for a spot on the Azzuri, they definitely looked like 
    the better team. Guiseppe Signori scored the first goal on an indirect 
    free kick from about 30 yards out. I had never heard of him, but he was 
    all over the field for Italy and looks like quite a player. In the second 
    half, Signori broke in all alone on the goalie, only to be hauled down, 
    for an automatic red card for Pat Bonner, the Irish keeper. There was some 
    confusion as to whether they could sub without the ball going over the end 
    line. The eventually did allow them to bring on the new goalie, but he 
    couldn't do much to stop the penalty. 2-0. 

    Ireland were playing their traditional longball style, with the keeper or 
    a defender hoofing the ball upfield, hoping one of their guys gets to it 
    first. Ireland were offside the whole game, 10 times in the first half 
    alone. Niall Quinn, the striker, was pretty useless from what I could tell.
    Every time he got near the ball in a decent potential scoring position, he 
    either lost it, fouled someone or made a stupid pass. John Aldridge had a 
    good game though, and he barely missed what would have been a spectacular 
    sliding goal in the second half.

    Both teams made a lot of subs, so it was a little hard to keep track of 
    everyone (especially for the public-address announcer!) The game got a 
    little chippy in the second half, and the ref must have given out 4 or 5 
    yellow cards. Someone was speculating that FIFA are looking for "srtict" 
    refs for the 1994 World Cup, so this guy wasn't going to let any border-
    line stuff go.
    
    All in all, it was everything I had hoped for: Beautiful weather, 
    entertaining game, a couple of goals and a lot of chances and good plays, 
    and a good atmosphere in the crowd. Not much more you could ask for.  

    No offense meant so please no one take it that way, but man, these Irish 
    fans sure can drink! However, there is a big difference between ugly, 
    rowdy drunkedness and the good-natured way these people behaved. In fact, 
    I was wearing an Italy shirt in an almost all Irish section and didn't 
    feel uncomfortable at all. After the game as we were walking back to the 
    car, a few lads noticing the shirt said "Well doon t' the Pizza man! Ye 
    deserved t' win an it was a well played match on your part. Yez were
    the better side on the day, we werra crrrap!"
    
    Looking forward to the game on Sunday. It'll be a semi-sports get
    together, with me, Walt, the Sawmain, A&W and the Ninja
    
    Tom  

If you watch Signori's run at the keeper on TV (as I did) you can se that he
took a dive that would have made Mario proud. Before the keeper even touched 
him he was airborne. I can't fault the ref for making the call at full speed 
but it's quite easy to see on the replay that he dove big time....

Metz
   

ALDO!  ALDO!  ALDO!  ALDO!


The GREAT Aldo was superb yesterday and had the Portuguese very scared.

ALDO!  ALDO!  ALDO!  ALDO!

ALDO!  ALDO!  ALDO!  ALDO!


'Saw

The USA won the US Cup, by tying with Italy on Saturday.  John Harkes
scored the tying goal, and it was the first time that the USA had
scored on Italy in quite sometime.

Harkes was also the MVP of the tournament.

Italy came in second, Ireland 3rd, and Portugal 4th.


The US squad has really improved, I think because some of them are
playing outside of the US, because of the coaching change, and because
of the addition of Wegerle.


Yesterday's Ireland-Portugal game was interesting, and it got good in the
second half.  Portugal had a very young team, and they made a lot of
rushes, but couldn't finish them off.  A little maturity and this team
will be very competitive.

Ireland held the Great Aldo on the bench until there were about 5 minutes
left in the game.  He came on and in the remaining time had two solid
scoring chances and set up a third.  And to think that Jackie let that
that bugger Quinn play for so long....


Good game.

'Saw

    Tom,
    Signori plays for Foggia (sp) in the Italian League. I happened to
    catch bits and pieces of an Italian League game between Foggia and
    AC Milan. Signori scored Foggia's first goal on a beautiful
    shot and looked pretty good til half as Foggia led AC Milan 2-1,
    which I gather was a monumental upset in the making. However Foggia
    must have realized that and promptly got whupped by AC Milan, 7-2.
    I guess AC Milan is/was undefeated in Italian League play, a fact
    which I found incredible. They have a coupla of Dutch international
    who are amazing.
    
    Foggia has a dynamic striker named Boscia (sp) who is short, extremely
    quick, and he has better moves than Bobby Orr ( well almost). Was he on
    the Italian roster?
    
    MikeL
    

    Yup, I heard about that game with AC Milan. It IS remarkable to play a
    full schedule (34 games) and go unbeaten. Milan's Dutch trio is Ruud
    Gullit, Marco van Basten and Frank Rijkaard, all world class players.
    Milan also has Franco Baresi at sweeper, pretty much regarded as the
    best in the game right now.
    
    One of the good things about the cyclical nature of Internationals is
    that Italy, for example, played poorly after Italia 90 in the
    qualifiers (they lost to NORWAY!) and were beaten out the CIS. From
    there they fired the coach and brought in some fresh blood like
    Signori. This group will be playing in the 1994 World Cup qualifying
    rounds, so the goal is to develop a new, finely tuned machine in 2
    years time.
    
    The game yesterday was a good time. We had 24 of us there mostly
    WhiteFish and ::SPORTS noters. A&W says hello to everyone in here. 
    Ninj, I know you're not a soccer fan, but I'm glad to see you give it a
    try. Too bad the game wasn't as exciting as it could have been. It was
    a little slow in the first half, but things picked up a bit later on.
    We were sitting higher up, and you could clearly see the impact that the
    smaller field had. Players simply ran out of room at times,
    particularly in the corners. They really need to knock out those corner 
    seats.
    
    Portugal are a very young team with about 8 players 20 or younger. They 
    will get better in due time. Ireland are a lot older and more
    experienced, with several players over 30. Ireland were the better team 
    on the day, and controlled the play most of the game. Portugal did have 
    a few good counter attacks, but they couldn't finish off. Niall Quinn is 
    complete rubbish! I've seen him play live 3 times now, and a bunch more 
    for Manchester City on TV and I can't believe he still has a place at 
    this level. He can NOT control the ball, doesn't know what to do with 
    it if he does, never got off a shot...even *I* have more control than 
    that, which is a scary statement indeed. 
    
    On the positive side, I thought Terry Phelan was one of the better 
    players for Ireland. He plays left back for Wimbledon but was in the 
    midfield yesterday. He played the last 20 minutes of the Italy game, 
    and Big Jack gave him a start vs Portugal. He hasn't been capped too 
    many times, but I think Ireland would do well to keep him in the 
    lineup from now on. 
    
    All in all, a positive outing. 41,000 for this game and 35,000 for an
    afternoon game Thursday are encouraging numbers. Next year a similar
    tournament is planned. England and Germany are definitely coming and
    they jsut have to work out the minor details to finalize plans with
    Italy. 
    
    Tom 
       

    Yo Sawmain, that was the first time we've scored on Italy since 1934. 
    
    Meola also had a good game, making a few diving saves. 
    
    

    I enjoyed being at the game and I enjoyed seeing everyone.  I'm glad I
    gave it a try, but soccer still leaves me bored silly.  Sorry.  I just
    don't enjoy it.  It was probably the contrast between the game and the
    Patriots practice I watched that morning.
    
    John

Ireland said it was a tough game because it was warmer than they are
used to.

They said they were dog tired in the last 15 minutes.

The should have brought ALDO in sooner!!!!!!


'Saw


PS  Next, I have to see Ian Rush.  Guess I gotta go to Liverpool for that....

    John what do have against soccer ? It's international ! It's fun ! It's
    excitin.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ........ :-)

    Well, in this case, the functional won out over the artistic. Early on,
    niether team really got a lot going. Portugal did a bit of nice
    passing, but on at least a few occasions, it was clear that they ran
    out of room in the corners. The field is simply too narrow, and
    defenders can use that sideline as an "extra man" making it all the
    more crowded. You can tell that Portugal was the more skilled team, and
    they tried to make the most of it, but, except for the last 15 minutes
    or so, they couldn't do too much. 4 or 5 nice passes, but not a shot. 
    
    Ireland's longball style is better siuted for a field that size. They 
    would generally boot the ball up 50-60 yards and the 3 forwards would 
    isolate agaisnt the defenders. Midfield support would follow, and they 
    could set up, but the counter-attack style fits them well. The problem
    with this stlye is acuracy goes down with the longer the kick. Not no
    mention the useless Niall Quinn up front, who couldn't even control his
    bladder, Ireland ended up losing possesion in the Portugal end. 
    
    We were hoping to see Aldo (in for Quinn) at halftime, but they didn't
    bring him on until the end. He immediately created a flurry of action,
    and was involved in the diving header by Tommy Coyne for the second
    Irish goal.
    
    The Irish fans in the endzone were having a great time. If you
    saw/heard them, imagine what it would be like to be on a subway car
    full of people like that.
    
    Tom 
    

    Sometime's if im having trouble sleeping Ill look for a soccer game.
    
    								MaB

    Interview with Jack Charlton in the Glob was enlightening. As you
    guys pointed out, many of Eire's key people are in their 30's. Add a
    couple of years to them for the World Cup in '94 and you have a 
    team on the downside. Charlton wasn't too keen on the young 
    prospects in the Irish football leagues.  
    Looks like Jackie might have to use mirrors like in '66 or the
    Irish football association ( FAI= Find Another Irishman) might have
    to come up with more creative ways to stockpile the lineup. Lessee,
    isn't van Maasten 1/20th Irish??
    
    8^)
    MikeL
      

    You mean Marco van Basten, right? Problem is, once you've played for a
    country (usually at youth levels) that's the only country you can play
    for) 
    
    Yup, the Irish FA has had this policy of "if you've ever drunk a pint
    of Guinness, you can play for Ireland" The Irish football league is 
    semi-pro at best, in fact I think all the players on the Irish team play 
    for clubs in England or Scotland. Strange as it seems, Ireland is the only 
    country (aside from the US and Canada) where soccer is not the #1 sport. 
    With all the political stuff going on there, Some in the Irish sporting 
    authorities regard it as a "furrin" game (invented in ENGLAND, of all 
    places) and do everything they can to sabotage it.
    
    A lot of the players aren't even Irish. The two black players, Paul
    McGrath and Terry Phelan were born and raised in London, and speak with
    the cockney twang. However, their last names show that they definitely
    have an Irish relative somewhere down the line, so....
    
    Jack Charlton took over the Ireland team in 1986 when they were 2nd or 
    3rd rate. He scoured the pro leagues in England and brought in better 
    players who could qualify as Irish (some actually ARE Irish). Ireland 
    qualified for the Euro Championships in 1988 and beat England to boot, 
    so that made "Big Jack" an instant hero. The team continued to do well, 
    qualifying for the 1990 World Cup and making it to the final 8. They
    missed out on Euro 92, but they really should have qualified. The team
    is getting older, but guys like Phelan are the future, and they'll need
    to bring in some new blood to keep the momentum going if they are going
    to remain a top team over the next few years.
    
    From a US perspective, Ireland have drawn big crowds in the 4 games
    they have played here (3 in Foxboro, 1 in Washington) and no doubt the
    USSF would love to have them qualify, but they will have to beat out
    Spain and/or Denmark, which won't be easy, especially judging how they
    played this trip.
       
    Tom

If Jackie would play Aldo all the time, there'd not be any problems.

If you don't believe me, ask Andrew.....


ALDO! ALDO! ALDO!


'Saw

>            -< Aldo Novo was a 1-hit wonder. Great guitars though! >-


Blasphemy.  Aldo The Great, aka John Aldridge, is the greatest player
ever to lace up a pair o' boots (except for maybe Ian Rush).....


;^)

'Saw
    

    
    Both wrongo babe
    
    Jane "these boots were made for walking" Fonda was the greatest to
    ever lace up a pir o' boots - Barbarella!!!!
    
    Hal Tried Hard(tm)
    
    I remain,
    (not) fonda jane really,
    Kev
    

    
    After all was said and done, didn't the Boston area acquit itself 
    rather nicely in the spectator draws for the latest round of games, as
    compared to, say, a more cosmopolitan city like Chicago which had a
    hard time bringing in more than 10,000 for games featuring the US? 
    Will Chicago be hurt in the selection for later-round World Cup games
    because of this?
    
    Was thinking about this after some comments by Tom about Globe writer 
    Frank Dell'Apa, he of recent Boston soccer-trashing fame, in the 
    RED_SOX conference... 
    
    glenn
    

I know that New Haven was high on the popularity list for nexted year's
US Cup.

They drew heavily in a driving rain storm, and impressed the people who
ran the competition....


'Saw


PS  Boston did great.

    I will say that Foxboro did a great job in solidifying its position for
    more games in the World Cup than just the first round.  Rumor has it
    we're being considered for the 3rd place game in 1994.
    
    John

    The thing about Chicago is that the USSF decided to move there from
    being spread out over a couple of cities. So Chicago became the US's
    "home" city, which is OK, since it should be somewhere... 
    
    The crowds were very disappointing there, considering the USA-Italy final 
    was a big game that probably would generate some walk-up sales. I don't 
    know if the media there is completely caught up in the Bulls or what, or
    what kind of coverage this thing got. USA-Portugal misses out on the
    ethnic factor. Most Portugese ethnic communities are in Southeastern
    New England, so they were in full force for the New Haven and Foxboro
    games. Sure, Poland or Germany would have brought the ethnic crowds out 
    in Chicago, but unfortunately, that ain't how this works.
    
    Another somewhat misleading statistic about the Foxboro crowds is that
    the "right" ethnic teams played. It will be interestig to see if people 
    are as interested in soccer powers with little ethnic support in this
    area next year when England and Germany play.    
    
    In 1994 there is a lot of random selection as to who will play where.
    They always rank teams 1-2-3-4 so that each group is balanced, but
    there is no consideration whatsoever as to which cities will host which
    teams. There will be 2 groups of four spread between Chicago, Detriot
    and Foxboro, with 4 first-round games in each city. The US is in
    Chicago, grouped with 1-2-3 rated teams. I'm sure if Ireland qualify
    and are drawn into this group (totally random), there will be pressure
    to hav etem play a game or 2 in Foxboro. The same thing for any Latin
    American team in LA, but aside from that, we could very well see a
    replay of USA-Portugal in Chicago in front of 10,000 people.
    
    There has to be more than just "ethnic" fans to make a good crowd
    
    Tom

    Any of those Foxboro for the World Cup bashers care to retract some of
    their previous statements, or at least eat a little of the black bird?

I nominate DreadTom and Hawk to organize the World Cup Sports Get Together
at Foxboro in '94.


Dread will run it, and Hawk will keep us all on our toes...


8^)

'Saw

    
    Hawk is too mainly to attend such an event, unless that insomnia kicks
    in.
    
    BOSS

    Yeah, at least I kept all the tickets together. Sure, we ended up with
    2 different groups of people in 2 different areas of the parking lot,
    but we not only managed to find the other group, we even persuaded THEM
    to come over to the area where WE were, even though they were closer to
    the stadium....
    
    The rumor I heard was that we would definitely get at least 4 games, a
    very good chance of 5, and possibly 6 or even 7 games. The way it works 
    is that the preliminary rounds consist of 6 games per group and 2 groups 
    spread over 3 cities (Bos-Det-Chi; NY-Wash-Orlando; Dallas-LA-SF). That's 
    12 games for each trio or 4 games each. From there, 16 teams make the next
    round, so that's 8 games for 9 cities. I woud think that, especially
    considering the good attendance here, we would be a shoo-in for the
    second round. The 3rd round is 4 games, then the semi-finals, finals
    and a 3rd-place game. The final will probably be played in LA, but the
    other later games are up for grabs. Seems to me that we should be able
    to snag at least one of them...
    
    Tom   
    

    I am on the list to work in the press box for World Cup 1994.  I should
    have worked in the press box this past Thursday and Sunday.  Foxboro
    Stadium called my home lasted Tuesday.  By the time I got home Tuesday
    night, they decided they couldn't wait any longer and got someone else. 
    They said they didn't have my work number, when all they had to do was
    either 1.  Look it up in their files from when I worked at the UMass vs
    Northeastern football game from last Fall or 2.  Walk downstairs to the
    Patriots office to get it.  I very politely told them that the Patriots
    always have my number and if they need to get me in a hurry, they can
    just ask.
    
    Sheesh.
    
    Ninj

Ninj,

Had they gotten ahold of you, what might you have been doing?



'Saw

    I would have been press box coordinator for the day.  In other words, I
    would have been Foxboro Stadium's official representative in the press
    box.  It would have been helping the media folks figure out their way
    around, answering the phone and handling the internal PA system (the
    press box has its own PA system that is different from the one heard in
    the stands).
    
    John

    Ninj,
    Do you know the PA announcer for the Pats? ( on speaking terms that is)
    I believe he is the Norwood High Principal. I also seen him
    moonlighting as a beertender at a divey gin mill called Carroll's
    on the Walpole-Norwood line. Of course this was a few years back.
    His name escapes me.
    
    MikeL
    

    Seems like they could have used you on Thursday, Ninj. The PA announcer
    was more than a little confused with what was going on down on the
    field. I'm not ragging on him, but it looks bad when he says that a
    certain player scored, and then when he repeats himself, saying it was
    a different player: "Italy's goal scored by number 16, Guiseppe
    Signori, assisted by number 6, Franco Baresi at 17 minutes. That's Signori 
    from Baggio... uh, excuse me, that's not Baggio, but Baresi..." 
    Announcements on some of the substitutions were either way late or
    nonexistent. 
    
    To his credit, he did a good job at pronouncing the names. He even knew
    that Paul McGrath is not pronounced like the highway in Summaville, but
    more like McGrah.
    
    One thing that was annoying though were all the ads broadcast over the
    PA system when the game was going on. I realize they have to make the
    money when they can, but jeez, even organ music, as annoying as it may
    be, is better than hearing that so-and-so is a "proud sponsor"
    
    All in all, one of the English guys who went to the game said it was a
    "pretty nice" stadium and he was pleasantly surprised at the
    atmosphere.
    
    Tom 

    See Ninj, I told you it was a weenie sport.  
    
    BOSS

    If I had worked on Thursday/Sunday, it would have been on an internal
    PA system heard in the press box only and not in the stands.  It
    wouldn't have made any difference.
    
    Mike, the person you're thinking of is George Usevich.  He is the
    external PA announcer.  I know who he is and we know each other by
    sight but he probably wouldn't know my name.  He is at the other end of
    the press box from where I am and I almost never have any reason to go
    into his booth.  He comes to our area from time-to-time since the
    public relations folks (who I work for) are there.  Our internal PA
    announcer sits right in front of me.  The way our sound system is set
    up is that we get a little (not much) crowd noise, can barely hear the
    external PA but the referee's microphone is broadcast directly in.
    
    John

    These are the results of the first games in the European Championships 
    from Sweden:
    
    Group I:   
    France 1, Sweden 1
    England 0, Denmark 0
    
    Group II:
    Holland vs Scotland - tonight
    Germany vs CIS - Saturday
    
    Tom

    This just in: 
    
    Holland 1, Scotland 0.
    
    Team      Pl  W T L  F  A  Pts
    
    Group I:
    France    1   0 1 0  1  1   1
    Sweden    1   0 1 0  1  1   1
    Denmark   1   0 1 0  0  0   1
    England   1   0 1 0  0  0   1
    
    Group II:
    Holland   1   1 0 0  1  0   2
    CIS       0   0 0 0  0  0   0
    Germany   0   0 0 0  0  0   0
    Scotland  1   0 0 1  0  1   0

 Of course, the Euro 92 matches are prime time fare here on Singapore
 Broadcasting Corp.   And, yes, I've been watching them and reading the
 oh-so-flowery commentary.
 
 And I'm more convinced than ever before that we're just not missing all
 that much back in the States by *not* being a soccer power.   The
 England-Denmark "nil-nil" draw was about as exciting as root canal
 surgery.   Had me asleep in no time.
 
 I'm sure it's all very exciting if football's the only thing you care
 about in your old bloody life ... but when the tube highlights afterwards
 are about the "oh-so-close, marvelous, superbly athletic, full of vim and
 vigor Lineker shot that went just a scant foot wide of the goal and failed
 to give the England squad the score she so desperatly needed in this time
 of national need ..."
 
 Well, hey, color me all a quiver ... NOT !
 
 Bob Hunt

    Saw a small piece on a riot ( this time outside the US) in Sweden
    centering around the EuroCup 92. England fans were involved. Anyone
    have any details?
    
    MikeL
    

    I saw that piece on the 6:00 news lasted night (Channel 5) too.
    Apparenly it was nowhere near as big of a deal as I thought, since
    people over in ::FOOTBALL are talking about the games ("England are
    crrrap!") rather than the troubles. 
    
    What really gets me is that this is the ONLY time they even mention
    that the Euro Championships are going on, but no mention of scores,
    etc. No wonder many Americans seem to think that ALL soccer games are
    rife with this sort of mindless crap. I know someone who wanted to go
    to the Ireland - Italy game at foxboro, but was afraid that they'd get
    caught up in that sort of trouble, "because that's what happens at
    those games in Europe." As usaul, it's only a handful of idiots causing 
    all the trouble, but all the thousands of England supporters are tainted 
    with the same paintbrush. They should take away their passports.
    
    Re Bob Hunt. I suppose because of the Brittish influence in Singpore
    you get the BBC commentary, so definitely take it with a grain of salt.
    Even the people in England despise the commentator, Jimmy Hill. All
    kinds of jingoism is bad, but somehow, the English national team brings
    out the worst in TV announcers. BTW, the Sweden-Denmark and Scotland-
    Holland games were pretty good, but I agree, the tournament has been 
    pretty boring so far.
    
    Standings:
    GROUP I    Pl  W T L GF  GA  Pts
    Sweden     2   1 1 0  2   1   3
    France     2   0 2 0  1   1   2
    England    2   0 2 0  0   0   2
    Denmark    2   0 1 1  0   1   1
    
    GROUP II
    Holland    1   1 0 0  1   0   2
    Germany    1   0 1 0  1   1   1
    CIS        1   0 1 0  1   1   1
    Scotland   1   0 0 1  0   1   0
    
    Today:
    Holland - CIS
    Tuesday:
    Germany - Scotland
    Wednesday:
    Sweden - England
    France - Denmark
    Friday:
    Holland - Germany
    CIS - Scotland
       

    From the Fitba conference. As much as I expected.... Even more shameful
    of Channel 5 to run the story....
    
    
           <<< TRUCKS::DISK$USER72:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FOOTBALL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< FOOTBALL >-
================================================================================
Note 33.737                      Leeds United FC                      737 of 738
BAHTAT::LZOP01::BLYTHE "Leeds United - Champions 91-92" 6 lines  15-JUN-1992 14:46
             -< Saturday Night Fever / Sunday Morning Nightmare ! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re Swedish aggro :-

The police said it was no worse than a normal Saturday night brawl, but as 
it was Football related, it got blown up.

jb.

    The other side of the coin....
    
    The thing that really amazes me is that the  Swedish officials set up
    beer tents.  Sure, a group with a history of some ugly incidents is
    coming to the area, so let's just get 'em real drunk to show our
    hospitality. The Belgian police were also naive with the Heysel
    disaster in 1985, but this looks like they are playing with fire. This
    is even more remarkable considering the way drinkin is treated in
    Sweden. Booze/beer is VERY expensive, taxed to the hilt. A beer in a bar
    costs about $8, in a store, about $5. Liquor/beer stores are only open
    3 days a week.
    
    Anyway, here's the article:
    
    
From:	ROYALT::ASHE         "Walter Ashe VIPS Field Test DSG1-1/D9 DTN 235-8150" 15-JUN-1992 12:29:33.55
To:	SALES::THILL
CC:	
Subj:	'It simply looks like a war zone' - clari.sports.misc #7927

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
Xref: nntpd.lkg.dec.com clari.sports.misc:7927 clari.sports.top:8711
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.sports.top
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: 'It simply looks like a war zone'
Keywords: soccer, legalities
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 92 15:10:31 PDT
ACategory: sports
Slugword: eurosoccer-violence
Priority: major
Format: regular
X-Supersedes: <[email protected]>
ANPA: Wc: 417; Id: z4760; Sel: xxscl; Adate: 6-14-605ped; Ver: ld; Ref: sked
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: ysclrxx.
Note: (adding details, british government reply)
Lines: 39

	MALMO, Sweden (UPI) -- England's notorious soccer fans pelted police
in riot gear with bottles and chairs and smashed cars early Sunday,
delivering the first violent blows at the European Championships.
	Police said the mayhem in downtown Malmo, site of England's goalless
draw with France Sunday, left nine people arrested and at least 27
injured. Two police officers were taken to hospital.
	``The football war has broken out,'' a witness said. ``It simply
looks like a war zone.''
	The violence brought an apology from David Mellor, Britain's minister
responsible for sport. He told a news conference he had expressed his
regrets, both orally and in a letter to the Swedish authorities.
	``It was a nasty incident and let's hope it was an isolated incident,
'' he said. ``It was a scar undoubtedly on what has become the better
reputation of English fans. ...
	``It was quite clear that the people of Malmo had put themselves out
to welcome the English fans, but they should not be paid back in this
fashion. The fans have behaved disgracefully. Why is it that they always
choose to behave disgracefully when it makes the maximum possible
impact?''
	Police added that Swedes and a group of Lebanese were involved in the
several hours of fighting. In Copenhagen, a 30-minute ferry trip from
Malmo, police said 12 Englishmen were arrested early Sunday for
disturbing the peace.
	The brawl in Malmo started at midnight at a municipal beer tent
catering to the several thousand English fans in town. According to
police, the brawl was unprovoked.
	``The police did nothing to excite them,'' a policeman said. ``We
didn't even take action with those who were drunk.''
	Mellor, who arrived in Malmo Saturday, emphasized it was the idea of
Swedish officials to set up the beer tents.
	``We expressed serious reservations at the time,'' he said. ``If it
had been left to us, we would not have had it.''
	Twenty police officers in riot gear were bombarded with bottles and
chairs when they tried to quiet a noisy gathering of drunken fans. At
one point, some 300 police were on the scene. The rampaging fans set a
motorcycle ablaze and smashed several cars. A British television crew
had its cameras broken when the fans discovered they wre being filmed.
	``It was a deplorable incident and the footage shows that it was a
very unpleasant thing for all of us,'' Mellor said.

From VNS:


    The President of UEFA, Lannart Johansson, has threatened that English clubs
    and the national team could be excluded from european competition 
    following the disturbances in Malmo and Stockholm. Speaking to the BBC, he
    also added that the 1996 European Championships could be moved from England
    unless the violence stopped.

    There has been talk of taking away the 1996 championships, but let's 
    face it, it's only a small minority of idiots who would penalize the 
    whole country if they did. Apparently, beer tents were set up for the 
    fans of the other countries, and there was no trouble anywhere outside 
    the English area.
    
    One of the people arrested was a National Front/Skinhead/Neo-Nazi
    leader from Norway, no doubt in Sweden to watch the games as a nuetral
    supporter, may the best team win, rawther sporting, eh wot? . The thing 
    is that English fans have been provoked by thugs of every nation, and 
    local police don't take too kindly to them either. No doubt, if they took 
    away the passports of anyone convicted of hooligan-related offenses, 
    this would take care of some of the worst elements. But this would still 
    not prevent provocation and attacks form local trouble makers on
    average fans. A lot of this stems from the reputations and local punks 
    want to have a go at them, saying "So you fink you English are so tough, 
    huh? We'll see about that!"
    
    This problem is only going to get worse as the boders disappear in the
    near future. If I was an English fan traveling to see the team, I would 
    gladly put up with a longer wait at the dock before boarding the boat,
    increased scrutiny and even being grilled by the police if it meant
    keeping these morons home. It is an embarassment to an entire country,
    and I'm really surprised the Brittish government hasn't done anything
    about it yet. 
    
    Tom                  

    Didn't the English government try to do something after the 1985
    debacle in Belgium?? 
    
    Problem I have with .276 is that the fans of various teams in England
    are always at each other, they then seem to combine forces against
    teams from other countries. They are getting a bad rep because they
    truly deserve it. I can't think of anohter country where fans of
    opposing teams are so prone to violence week after week.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Craze,
    The fans in England are really no worse than any other country's fans.
    There is some violence during/after matches in the English League.
    But it is slight and even that should be dealt with severely. Some
    of English soccer fans are young and unemployed and as Tom pointed
    out they give England a bad rap when they travel to Europe for
    matches. You should actually read/see highlights of other European
    leagues as well as South American leagues. There is fan violence
    there also, but is not as publicised because of the rep " there go
    the bloody English hooligans again" that has labelled on the Anglais.
    
    MikeL
    

       
    I don't know, Mike.  It sure doesn't seem to the casual observer that
    the behavior of every country's soccer fans is the same.  This is not
    to say that I disagree with Tom's assessment that it's a small minority
    causing the trouble (Tom's recommendations for solving the problem 
    sound very reasonable), but it sure seems that in England's case that
    minority is larger or more destructive than that element of other 
    countries' fans.  Either that or it's just a prolonged string of 
    coincidences involving England in international play (coincidences 
    which have earned them bans on international play in the past, by the
    way).
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn,
    The small minority of the English soccer fandom cause all the
    trouble. Ever since the mid-80's ban, the world castes a watching
    eye towards them. And unfortunately and stupidly, they don't
    disappoint. I've read and seen other countries' fans get involved
    in incidences and not get the publicity the English do. But as
    Tom pointed out, the English now are marked and taunted by the
    fans. That's not condoning anything 'cuz like Dread said, the British
    government has to step in and do something. This minority seems to
    be always travelling to the continent and they're always involved
    in the violence. But it takes two to tango, and I've seen some
    ugly incidents between Dutch and German and Italian and German fans
    as well. 
    
    MikeL
    

�                   -< Soccer hooligans are a lot like rugby >-
    
    They most certainly are not.  Hooliganism on the pitch is dealt with
    swiftly and severely, and as a result, doesn't happen very often. 
    Hooliganism in the stands is virtually unheard of.

The big problem for the US in world up '94 is that they don't have an island 
stadium in which to put the English into for the Cup. It worked in Italy to
conveniantly have the English, Dutch and ?? put into one group (which was
supposedly drawn by lot) and then had their prelim matches on the Island of
Sardinia. Then the Italians beefed up the security on the island and all was
relatively quiet...

Actually I doubt they'll have a problem with the Cup here because it'll be
expensive to come see the matches. I also doubt that the US police will put 
up with the brawls...although I haven't seen them very effective in Chicago
or detroit..

Metz

    TCM,
    
    The only thing that happened after 1985 was that English clubs were
    banned from European competitions, and Liverpool were bannd for an
    extra year. Some out-to-lunch MP suggested keeping a running count on
    hooliganism, but that would encourage these idiots even more. What next,
    a hooligan final at Wembeley Stadium?
    
    Believe it or not, violence at domestic English matches has actually 
    decreased over the past few years. Leeds United had only 37 arrests for 
    the whole season (21 home league games + probably 5 or 6 more cup games). 
    30 of those arrests were for drunkendess, and 7 were for violent behavior. 
    One guy was banned for life from Elland Road and others were banned for 
    a year. Believe it or not, you used to be able to bring in bottles and 
    cans of beer into the stadium, but they've stopped that. They have also 
    done a better job of organizing things and allocating certain sections for
    away fans. 
    
    In the 1990 WC in Italy the Dutch were not exactly angels either. I don't 
    think it was a coincidence that they put England and Holland in the same
    group on Sicily and Sardinia, making it easier for the police to contain 
    them. Other individual clubs have had problems themselves. Ajax Amstrdam 
    were also banned from Europe because fans threw an iron bar at the Austria 
    Wien goalie. Other less dangerous, but still offensive behaviour
    included throwing toilet brushes at Turkish players for the Galatasaray
    club (Turks do a lot of the menial jobs like that in Holland).
    
    As for the national team, many of these people are not fans, the same
    way drunken idiots in the bleachers at a baseball game couldn't tell you
    the score. The National Front, unfortunately, is very active in all
    countries in Europe, and encourages this sort of behaviour simply to
    create hostility and divisions between nationalities. The sad thing is
    that most foreign soccer fans I met at games when I lived in Belgium 
    enjoyed meeting fans of different nationalities, trading buttons,
    talking fitba, etc. I would bet that the majority of fans in Sweden now
    fall into that category. With soccer being a worldwide sport, there is a 
    lot of common ground. No one *likes* the Germans, but no one will argue
    that Rudi Voeller, Jurgen Klinsmann, Klaus Augenthaler, Thomas Doll, etc. 
    arent great players.
    
    BTW, is this a strange coincidence or what? They didn't open the
    English beer tent last night, and there was no trouble.... 
    
    Tom
      

    Group I is finishing up today. Sweden are in the driver's seat. A win
    or a draw vs England will send them through. Denmark can make the semis
    if they beat France.
                        
	Team	Pl  W D L GF GA  Pts
    	Sweden   2  1 1 0  2  1   3
    	France   2  0 2 0  1  1   2
    	England  2  0 2 0  0  0   2
    	Denmark  2  0 1 1  0  1   1
    
    
    Group II finishes tomorrow with Holland - Germany and Scotland - CIS.
    The CIS could sneak in with a win if Holland and Germany draw. That
    would be a shame, since the CIS have been the most negative team in the
    tournament, even more so than England. They even took a free kick and
    passed it back to the keeper. 
    
    	Team	Pl  W D L GF GA  Pts
       	Germany  2  1 1 0  3  1   3
       	Holland  2  1 1 0  1  0   3
    	CIS      2  0 2 0  1  1   2
    	Scotland 2  0 0 2  0  3   0
    
    Group winners play the 2nd team from the other group in the semis

    The games are over and the teams that played the more creative,
    attcaking styles have gone through, and the cynical, "do only enough to
    get by" approach have been sent home. Sweden 2, England 1; Denmark 2,
    France 1.
    
    Final group I standings:
            Pl  W D L  GF GA  Pts
    Sweden   3  2 1 0   4  2   5
    Denmark  3  1 1 1   2  2   3
    France   3  0 2 1   2  3   2
    England  3  0 2 1   1  2   2
    
    Sweden plays the second place team in group II and Denmark plays the 
    first place team in group II.

    And the violence continues, but this time it's not English, but others.
    Thugs come in all nationalities. Police are bracing for the worst when
    Holland and Germany square off today. These 2 countries have a history
    of mutual dislike, and since they are playing fro the championship of
    Group II today, that intensifies it even more.
    
 This is from a Swedish noter in ::FOOTBALL     
    ============================================================================
Note 215.29                   Hooliganism in Europe                     29 of 42
GOTA1::APPELQVIST "If it don't stink, don't stir"    18 lines  18-JUN-1992 14:27
                       -< And the story continues.. :-( >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I'm sitting here listenig to the local radio, and in this very moment
    there is great riots in the central of Gothenburg.
    
    Apparently 200-300 German fans are walking up and down the main avenue
    demolishing every resaurant they see. Some Dutch people selling flags
    and scarfs have been beaten up. Many German fans came with the ferry
    from Kiel this morning, and the police don't have control over the
    situation.
    
    Most of the Dutch fans ran away when the Germans came, it's more
    vandalizing than fighting. They grab chairs, tables, glasses and plates
    from the restaurants and throw the items in the windows and on the
    street. The police urge people not to drive in to central town, and ask 
    people to stay away from the Avenue.
    
    Mats
        

    Deutsches volk are mostly despised au Europa, n'est-ce-pas?
    During my recent trip to Nederland, we were constantly surrounded
    by German tourists. The local Dutch, while glady accepting their 
    gildes, were not, ah, overly gracious hosts. And the Germans were
    not overly gracious visitors. On one occasion while queueing for
    a canal trip in Amsterdam among German tourists, we approached the
    cashier. She asked us a question in what I assume was Deutsch because
    everyone else seemed German. When I replied that I was sorry, I did not
    understand and I was American, she said, " Ah, so you are not with
    THEM (emphasis). Good".  I assume this friction carriesover to soccer.
    
    MikeL
     

    Bad blood between Dutch and Deutsch has been going on since the middle
    ages, but particularly since WWII and our in parents' generation. Even 
    the French and English get along better, which says a lot!
    
    As memoreis fade, WWII is more confined to history books, except for older
    people. A lot of the resentment of Germans by other Europeans has more to 
    do with their replacing the "Ugly Americans" starting in the '70s.
    German affluence has enabled them to vacation in sunny (poorer) southern 
    Europe, and as tourists, there is the usual dillemma of wanting them to
    visit only for the money they bring. In 1984 when I was on the Adriatic
    coast of Croatia, there were tons of Germans in campers in this seaside
    town. Problem is, they brought their own food, beer, etc from Germany
    because it was "better" than anything the Yugoslavs could offer. Gee,
    maybe it's me, but I always thought one of the reasons for visiting
    another country was to try DIFFERENT things. I couldn't blame the
    locals for feeling snubbed in this case. In fact, a store clerk spoke
    to me in German, but was relieved/pleased to know I wasn't one of
    "them" when I asked for "Pivo" -- Beer from my Serbo-Croatian phrase
    book.
    
    This is another reason why many Europeans were not exactly overjoyed
    with the re-unificatuion of Germany. It will take a while to get sorted
    out, but eventually Germany will emerge as the strongest nation in
    Europe, which scares the hell out of a lot of people.
    
    As for the Holland - Germany game last night, Holland won 3-1, in what
    was considered one of the best played games of the tournament. Ever
    since 1970, whenever Holland and Germany have squared off in a
    tournament, the winner has always gone on to win that tournament.
    Holland finish 1st and play Denmark while Germany also qualify for the
    semis vs Sweden. In the other game, Scotland beat the CIS 3-0.
    
    Final Strandings:
    GROUP I
    
    Team	Pl  W D L  GF GA  Pts
    Sweden	3   2 1 0   4  2   5
    Denmark     3   1 1 1   2  2   3
    France      3   0 2 1   2  3   2
    England     3   0 2 1   1  2   2
    
    GROUP II
    Holland     3   2 1 0   5  2   5
    Germany     3   1 1 1   4  4   3
    Scotland    3   1 0 2   3  3   2
    CIS         3   0 2 1   2  5   2
    

    Wow, Tom.  During my many visits to my relatives in Hungary, I've
    always heard the same about the German tourists.  Hungary is one of
    their favorite vacation spots, mostly because of it's many natural
    spas.  Not many a kind word, except that they did bring money in.  I
    can remember many instances too where I did some of the tourist things,
    and these people were very rude.  No consideration at all...
    
    Hawk
    

    The funny thing about the reputation of Germans is that I've been to
    Germany and met individual Germans several times both in and outside 
    of Germany, and they have been fine as individuals. Hail, I even let a
    German girl dye a blond "tail" in my hair once. Course, I thought I
    could wash it out the nexted day, but little did I know that it was 
    permanent. 
    
    Germany as a country (except for the old East Germany) is very modern, 
    clean, and *orderly* If a train is supposed to come at 12:30, you can 
    look at your watch and its 12:29:45 and that train is coming round the 
    bend into the station. Amazing!
    
    Tom
    

I've had the same experiences as Tom.

In my times spent in Munich I found the Germans to be very, very hospitable,
and polite.   They were more than willing to help me, and I speak about
enough German to ask for bier and where the toilet is.   In Paris, I was
never sure if I should try French or stick with English -- I got dirty
looks for both.


'Saw

    Got me, Mark.  I did find my apostrophe error...
    
    I've met some real nice people while *in* Germany.  Seems that when
    they go on tour, they leave their manners at home.
    
    And, how can they stand the smell of themselves?  Why do they treat a
    shower like a weekly ritual?  Several years ago, a German friend of the
    family came over and stayed at my mother's house for a couple of weeks. 
    After daily hints that showers were available, my mother insisted that
    this guy take a shower after 3 days!
    
    Hawk
    

Cultural differences, Hawk.  Cultural differences.

I've noticed what you mentioned, but I cannot for the life of me
figure out what that it.

If I don't take a shower for two days, I feel so itchy,grubby, smelly,
I'm about out of my mind.  I can't imagine going longer, unless you're
an infantryman or something like that.....


'Saw

    THILL and others:
    
    If i and the majority of my countrymen were as primitive and full of
    prejudice as you are, you and the likes would sure have all the reasons
    in the world to be scared like hell ...

    ... but so it is 1992, and one can register with a smile of regret
    how you make a fool of yourself in front of an international
    audience of people some of which have a much wider horizon.
    
    For a moment i thought your problem is frustration because the
    engl. team got kicked butt again, but then i realized that this
    must be a decades-long routine for you.  So, what is the problem?

Rainer,

Wie geht es?



Don't pick on Tom Hill.  Of anyone in this file he's probably had the 
most experiences in and around Europe, including Germany, Holland etc.
I know Tom, and he's not prejudiced, and I think he was trying to be
very objective in putting forth some of the views that were/are held
in Europe today.

We all know that internally in Europe, the history is full of one people
not liking another, and those aliiances changing, sometimes rapidly.
I learned from you several years ago, that Central Europe has been
over-run by just about everyone in the long history of the Continent.


No, I think Tom was trying to be objective, and intended no malice.



As the face of Europe continues to change, it will be interesting to see
how it all turns out.


'Saw

    Rainer,
    I only reported what I observed and no slight or malice was
    intended. I can only speak for myself as I am well aware that
    Americans can be rude and uncivil. My question was geared to
    soccer; the friction I observed in Holland between Dutch and
    German could explain the hotly contested football matches, no?
    And as 'Saw said, Tom has been to Europe more than I (only once)
    and he seemed to offer his objective view quite without prejudice.
    If I did not do that myself, I apologize.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    Thanks for pointing out what I was going to say, guys. 
    
    Ranier, I meant no harm or malice, and I apoligize if I've offended
    you. I'll admit that it is dangerous to generalize about people. What I 
    was trying to do was explain why people hold certian attitudes, not make 
    excuses fro them. As I pointed out in one of my previous notes, I've met 
    lots of German people both inside and outside Germany and have found them 
    all to be generally decent, good, friendly people.  
    
    As for the image of rude tourists, believe me, there were plenty of
    times where I wished I was anything but American when I was traveling.
    You know the American way of translating -- If I say it really loud in
    English, maybe then you will understand me better. Unfortulnately, it 
    isn't fair to judge a group of people by the actions of a few. All I was 
    saying was that some Germans behave badly (or at least a fair number of 
    people PERCEIVE it that way), and I was trying to explain why these 
    attitudes exist.
    
    As for understanding Europe and the various attitudes, I lived in
    Belgium (where they have a bit of ethnic strife of their own) for 2 1/2 
    years, and later traveled for 3 months through different parts of
    Europe later, after I left my job. I've also been back there more
    recently, twice for a total of 7 weeks. I got a pretty good feel for
    things there, but never so much as to think I know about everything
    going on there. You'd have to be fluent in about 10 different languages
    and spend all your time talking to people in cafes, on the street, etc
    to really do that. 
    
    Anyway, I hear the Germany - Sweden game was a good one. Germany were
    the better team, but no one really expected Sweden to go as far as they
    did. I don't have too much info on the match other than it was 3-2. As
    for England being eliminated, believe me, I was glad to see them go home, 
    because they are the most unimaginative, least entertaining team in the
    tournament (well maybe CIS too). Sweden, Denmark, Holland and Germany
    and even Scotland were all much more entertaining and were trying to
    make the most of the tournament. I was really disappointed with France,
    as I though they had a good chance at winning it.
    
    Anyway, I hope you stick around in here. There aren't a lot of us here
    who like to discuss "fussball" and I would be interested in hearing
    your views on the Bundisliga, German team, and anything else relating
    to the game.
    
    Tschuss,
    
    Tom  
                             

    Bit of an upset in the semi finals...Denmark beat Holland in a penalty
    shootout. This was one of the most entertaining games, with lots of
    scoring (2-2 in regulation) and tons of scoring opportunities for both
    sides. Great goaltending too, as Peter Schmeichel (of Manchester
    United) came up with a few BIG saves for the Danes, and elder statesman 
    Hans van Breuklin showed that he still can rise to the occasion.
    
    The Dutch were better on paper, if you made a player vs player
    comparison, but Denmark had the toughness and desire to compensate for
    that. My Dutch friend Jelle was pretty bummed about it, but admitted
    that Denamrk won about 70% of all the headers. Holland has the good
    tactics, setting up a string of 5 or 6 passes together, but Denmark had
    some nice fast-break counter attacks. 
    
    This may have been the last hurrah for Holland. The Milan trio is
    getting older, as Gullit is 31, Van Basten and Rijkard 32. There are a
    few younger players like Bergkamp ready to make the transition, but if 
    Holland were ever going to reign supreme, this (and WC 1990) would have 
    been the year(s).
      
    Denmark has always been one of the more exciting and entertaining teams 
    since the early 80s, but they haven't always had the horses to win the
    big one. The 86 WC in Mexico comes to mind when they convincingly beat 
    Germany, Paraguay and Algeria, sweeping the group, only to self destruct 
    agaisnt Spain in the next round. As they go into the final against heavily 
    favored Germany, maybe they can pull it off this time. If they play
    like they did against Holland, thye can, but Germany always manages to rise
    to the occasion.  
    
    Tom
       

    Lineups for Denmark and Germany. I'm hoping I can go to the Plow & Stars 
    in Cambridge on Friday afternoon to see the final. How about some of 
    those names? Could you name your baby boy "Bodo"?
    
    	Denmark				    Germany
    
     1. Peter Scmeichel	(G)		 1. Bodo Illgner  (G)
     2. John Sivebaek			 2. Stefan Reuter
     3. Kent Nielsen			 3. Andreas Brehme
     4. Lars Olsen			 4. J�rgen Kohler
     5. Henrik Andersen			 5. Manfred Binz
     6. Kim Christofte			 6. Guido Buchwald
     7. John Jensen			 7. Andreas M�ller
     8. Johnny M�lby			 8. Thomas H�ssler
     9. Flemming Povlsen		 9. Rudi Voeller
    10. Lars Elstrup			10. Thomas Doll
    11. Brian Laudrup			11. Karl-Heinz Riedle
    12. Torben Piechnik			12. Andreas K�pke (G)
    13. Henrik Larsen			13. Andreas Thon
    14. Torben Frank			14. Thomas Helmer
    15. Bent Christensen		15. Michael Frontzeck
    16. Mogens Krogh (G)		16. Matthias Sammer
    17. Claus Christensen		17. Stefan Effenberg
    18. Kim Vilfort			18. J�rgen Klinsmann
    19. Peter Nielsen			19. Michael Schulz
    20. Morten Bruun			20. Christian W�rms
                                                     
    

    Where's Aldo?
    

    Aldo is sitting home in front of the TV in Liverpool with a big pint of
    Guiness, WISHING that his team, Tranmere Rovers would trade him to the
    WhiteFish for a Swedish ghost to be named later, a water bucket and an 
    all-expenses paid trip to Metropolitan Boylston's swankest resort spa, 
    The Other Place Pub.
    
    Then maybe we'd score some goals :-)                                  

    Swedish ghost?  Glad I wasn't drinking anything...

    So as not to clutter up the manly NFL topic with news on sissy sport
    ;^}, I'll put this here:
    
    Tom Hill was close in his prediction of the WC final being held in LA. 
    According to a blurb in today's VNS sports report, the final, one of
    the semi-finals, and the consolation final will be held at the Rose
    Bowl in Pasedena, CA.

    Now if I can only predict with the same result what the Megabucks
    number will be...
    
    Any news on the other cities selected for which games? The 9 cities
    (Foxboro, Pontiac, Chicago, East Rutherford, Washington, Orlando,
    Dallas, Pasadena, Palo Alto) will each host 4 first round games. 
    Then there will be 8 second-round games, 
    4 quarter final games, 
    2 semifinals (Pasadena and ------) 
    a Final (Pasadena) and 
    a Third-Place consolation game (Pasadena).
    
    Rumor has it that Foxboro will get a quarter-final game.... 
    
    Tom

    Tom, the blurb only mentioned Pasadena.  I might have been a bit
    premature.  I just reread the VNS posting and it said that World Cup
    USA 1994 have put forward the Rose Bowl as the site of those games. 
    Does it now have to be approved?

       Aren't some of the stadiums in .308 phony turf? I thought real grass
    was a requirement.
                               Denny

>    4 quarter final games, 
>    2 semifinals (Pasadena and ------) 
>    a Final (Pasadena) and 
>    a Third-Place consolation game (Pasadena).
    
>    Rumor has it that Foxboro will get a quarter-final game.... 
    


We might be a bit premature if the sites have to be approved.

However, a small blurb in yesterday's Courant stated that Foxboro
was to have (or submitted whatever) a quarter final, and that
the Meadowlands was to have a quarter and a semi.....

I will try to remember to check the article again tonight.....


'Saw

    They are putting in grass fields on the Pontiac Silverdome, the Cotton Bowl
    and Giants Stadium. re .309 it could be that they *applied* to have
    those games at Pasadena. I think the Foxboro group bid for all the
    games except the final, figuring that a lot of them would be either/or
    scenarios. For example they could get one of the 8 second rounders,
    plus one other game, if we're lucky.
    
    Since there are 8 second round games, you could make a pretty good
    argument that each city will get one, and the city left over will get a
    quarter-final. After that, there are 3 other quarter-finals, 2 semis a
    final and a 3rd place game. 
    
    They were supposed to come out with a schedule sometime around now, but 
    it won't tell us too much. All it will do is say Game 1, June 17th,
    Foxboro stadium, Group C, teams 1 & 3, or something like that. The USA
    will be the "team 1" in the Chicago group, and Germany will be "team 1"
    In another grouping. The Opening game will feature Germany vs the #3
    team in their group, whoever that might be. 
    
    It will be hard to make plans if you are interested in following a
    specific team, since no one knows when and where (or even IF) certain
    teams will be playing. I don't care, since whoever ends up in Foxboro
    will be worth seeing, but it would be nice to get games with Brazil,
    Holland, Denmark, etc for their style of play, or Ireland for the Irish
    fans.
    
    Tom

    They officially announced the sites fro the various games, and Foxboro
    did pretty well, getting 6 games. This is how it works:
    
    6/17-6/30   7/2 - 7/5       7/8 - 7/10      7/12 - 7/13  7/16      7/17
    1st round	2nd round 	Quarterfinals   Semifinals  3rd place Finals
    (4 games)	(8 games)       (4 games)       (2 games)
    Boston --------> Bos. -----> Boston
    Detroit
    Chicago -------> Chi.
    New York ------> N.Y. -----> New York -----> New York
    Washington ----> Wsh.
    Orlando -------> Orl.
    Dallas --------> Dal. -----> Dallas
    Pasadena ------> Pas. 		          Pasadena  Pasadena  Pasadena
    Palo Alto------> P.A. -----> Palo Alto
    
    Tom

    Soccer is a lot like Rugby.

>    Soccer is a lot like Rugby.


NOT.

First off, rugby is a hooligan's sport played by gentlemen, whereas
soccer is a gentlemen's sport played by hooligans.

Also, the Rugby World Cup is much younger (the first one was in 1987).

In addition, the US has the only Olympic Gold in rugby, a feat which
the soccer team has never equalled.

Finally, in soccer, a guy with a little bit o' hurt stays down for
a long time.  In rugby, a guy with a heap o' hurtin' gets 1 minute,
and then he's either up or off.   Most times, unless something is
radically broken and can't be taped, or unless he doesn't know what
planet he's on (concussion) he stays up and on.


The only similarity between soccer and rugby is that they one originated
from the other, via a disgruntled, impatient player....


hth,
'Saw

    Soccer bores the hell out of me and rugby is enjoyable and fascinating. 
    I've also never been taped up and stomped upon watching soccer like I
    have been watching rugby.  So there.
    
    Ninj

    -1,
    If dat's the case Ninj, you'd be a poifect soccer hooligan!
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    

    
    Soccer is for the wimps whose mommy's wouldn't let them play rugby or
    real football.
    
    BOSS, back from 2 weeks of vaca

>    Soccer is for the wimps whose mommy's wouldn't let them play rugby or
>    real football.
>    
>    BOSS, back from 2 weeks of vaca

Little article in this morning's Hartford Courant, about a guy who played
and excelled at soccer for four years at Glastonbury High School (where
I went).   He was a very good player, but he was deemed to agressive for
soccer.

When he went to UCONN he started playing rugby, and he participated in the
recent College All-Star Championship (on the east region team).  First player
ever to do that from UCONN.

He wants to play for Old Blue out of New York now that he's graduated....8^(


'Saw

    The proper pluralization of most words ending in 'y' is "ies", so you
    should have spelled it "mommies" instead of "mommy's" (sic).  The
    pluralization of attorney is an exception - I've most often seen it as
    attorneys rather than attornies, but definitely not attorney's (sic).
    
    John

>        <<< Note 13.321 by FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623" >>>
>
>    The proper pluralization of most words ending in 'y' is "ies", so you
>    should have spelled it "mommies" instead of "mommy's" (sic).  The
>    pluralization of attorney is an exception - I've most often seen it as
>    attorneys rather than attornies, but definitely not attorney's (sic).
    
So John, if you come from a rather large family, when you and your
brothers and sisters were running around, did folks say that there were
a lot of little Hendries running around?  Or was it Hendrys....


[many 8^)]


'Saw

    Hendrys.  Hendries is an ice cream company (hence, one of my other
    nicknames besides Ninj is the "ice cream man") but it's no relation.
    
    And as the oldest of 6 (4 brothers), there were a lot of us running
    around.
    
    John

    Welcome back, Brews...We really missed your wisdom and insight in this 
    note (not to mention your punctuation). Geez, while you were on
    vacation, all we did was talk about soccer in this note. Glad to see
    you're back and able to enlighten us with your worldly perspective and
    unique insight that none of us would have ever managed to think of
    ourselves.
    
    Tom

    
    Thanks Tom.  As you know, I'm just trying to keep all the junk notes
    (like this one) in the proper perspective.
    
    Brews
    
    P.S.  Did ya notice whilst I was on vacation the only professional
    league in the US folded.  It's good to know that at least the rest of
    the US doesn't support this wimpy sport to the level it gets supported
    in here.  Once that World Cup thingy gets done with, the hoopla in here
    will get done.  Heck, even 'saw entered an anti0wimp sport note in
    here!

    You mean the American Professional Soccer League (APSL), which is a 
    misnomer, cause it's really a semi-pro league? That doesn't surprise me, 
    actually. You cain't have a league wif only 5 teams, and a coast-to-coast 
    travel schedule to boot.
    
    What they need to build are regional leagues, and eventually if it
    evolves into what the NASL once was, then go the pro route.
    
    The thing that annoys me the most about Rothenburg and all his
    corporate lawyer pals at the USSF is that they are ignoring half the
    equasion. Most of the players and almost ALL the Americans involved in 
    management/coaching/decision making with the USA team come from the
    Suburban youth soccer--> H.S.---> College ---> route. 
    
    They are completely ignoring the ethnic half. This is not only true in 
    the player selection process, but in the direction the sport as a whole
    is taking in this country. There are literally thousands of amateur or
    semi-pro ethnic clubs and associations all over the country. The
    basketball equivalent would be a group of well-coached white kids on a
    suburban HS playing a group of black kids from the projects in the
    state finals. In soccer, the equivalent of the playground kids don't
    have the opportunity to play for their country.
    
    The solution is to have several amateur regional leagues that already
    exist as a "Third Division." These leagues would be in a small area,
    say, the 128 area of Boston, North, South, West, etc. These leagues
    would feed a larger area (all of New England) semi-pro league (like the
    LASA league) as a "Second Division," that would in turn support a regional 
    (East coast) higher level semi-pro league (like the old ASL). Eventually, 
    if a National pro league could emerge from the top teams in regional 
    leagues, that would be a plus, but you have to build from the ground up.
    
    Tom
    

Actually, Dread, what you are describing is not all that different than
the way rugby is administered in the US.

In this area, New England, there are 8 division one teams.  We play
each other once during league season.   The farthest drive is from
New Haven to Amoskeag (Manchester NH).   The first place team goes
to the Northeast Regional Tournament (one of the 64 best teams in the
country) and the 2nd place teams plays for the wildcard spot in that
tournament.

The winner there moves to the East Regional (sweet sixteen), and the
winner there to the final four.

It's all amateur.

The national team tends to be selected from among the four regional 
"select sides" or all-star teams.  




In Connecticut, there are several divisions worth of ethnic leagues, and
these players are very accomplished.   At one of the Scottish games
I went to one time they had a soccer tourney.  Granted, it was on a smaller
field, but the skill levels were excellent......


What you're proposing could easily be accomplished.

'Saw

    That's kind of the idea... There are a LOT of pretty good ethnic
    leagues in every area, since these people, no matter what country they
    are from, are natural soccer fans. There are also non-ethnic leagues
    like the Mass. United League with some ethnic teams. 
    
    For soccer to ever become a permanent fixture in this country, they
    need to be able to merge the ethnic side of it with the American youth
    soccer based group. When the Boston Bolts were around (1989 or so) I
    had a couple of conversations with the management of the team in a bar
    after a game. They were drawing 1500-2000 fans a game to 22,000 seat
    Nickerson Field. They all seemed to be American, except for the time
    they played agaisnt the Brazilian team Santos. 
    
    Turns out they didn't do any promotion in the ethnic communities because 
    they felt the ethnic folks didn't like their style of play, astro-turf, 
    etc, etc. OK, maybe something valid there, but gimmie a break, these 
    people love soccer to begin with, and if you make even a remote effort 
    to win their business, they'll at least give it a chance. If the team 
    played an attractive style, if promotions were done on Spanish radio, 
    ads in ALL ethnic community newspapers, they would certainly be doing 
    better than they were. If that were now, I'd tell 'em I would arrainge
    a PR campaign for no salary, just 5% of the gate. With their attitude
    and $15 tickets, no wonder they are out of business now.
    
    I think Georgio Chinalia (ex-Cosmos) was right wehn he said that the
    only way for soccer to succeed in the US is that NO ONE who was
    involved with the NASL be allowed to have a role...It should be new
    blood
    
    Tom

    
    This is, believe it or not, serious.
    
    I don't think soccer has a chance at all of ever becoming "a permanent
    fixture" in the US.  It's been given every opportunity, we have had
    more youngins playing it in the last 10 years than ever, and still
    tractor pulls draw more interest.  The World Cup will be the final
    straw, where after some immediate post partum excitement, the interest
    in the sport will return to the same dismal levels it has now.  The
    level of US play may improve, but it will never get any more than
    modest support.
    
    I know return to the normal soccer basher you all love...
    
    Brews  

    Brews, I don't think that 10 years is enough time.  If, by 2000, the
    interest hasn't ballooned, then I'll agree with you that it'll never
    become a "permanent fixture"...
    
    JMHO.
    
    Hawk
    
    

 There's not enough scoring for Americans to like it. It doesn't
 have the viloence to replace the lack of scoring or gross
 spectacles etc for Americans. To me it's like softball fun
 to play but a bore to watch......

 mike    

Hey squak,


the current year is 1992. it's only 8 years till 2000. If you're gonna
give brews more than 10 years for it to catch on you gotta go past the
year 2000:-)


Personally I don't think it will ever catch on in the states as a major
sport. I love to play it but I really don't enjoy watching the game
in a stadium. I'll watch it on the tube sometimes but I'd rather play
than watch....

I'll watch  as much of the world  cup as possible though...


Metz

    If you have to watch it, the best way is via one of the local Spanish
    TV stations.  I love it when the announcer says, "GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL!"
    
    Reminds me of that guy that did the PA in the Spectrum.
    
    Mike

    About soccer becoming a permanent fixture, I don't know if that will
    ever happen. If it ever will, a scenario like I described a few notes
    ago that bridges the gap between the ethnic and suburban/youth soccer 
    types will be the key. 
    
    That's the thing that is the most puzzling about soccer from a players
    point of view vs from a spectator viewpoint. People like Metz have an
    interest in the game as players, and certianly understand rules,
    strategies, etc. of what the players are doing. They always used to say
    that once all the kids who play grow up, they will support soccer as
    adults, but this hasn't been the case. Metz, if the NASL were alive and
    healthy, would you go to the occasional Seattle Sounders game? 
    
    Part of what got me interested in soccer was from living overseas. The
    atmosphere of attending a live match, either at the club or international 
    level is quite an experience. There is no way that atmosphere could have 
    been re-captured in the US, even with a healthy NASL. Something about
    everyone wearing the team colors, the chanting, singing, etc. that just
    isn't part of our culture. The closest thing I can think of is big-time
    college football.
    
    The USSF is going about promoting the game in all the wrong ways. In
    America, eveyone is obsessed with being perceived as "big league," so a
    regional soccer league, the equivalent of AA or AAA baseball simply
    will not do in the eyes of the USSF. They should *wish* they could have
    a soccer league as stable as the AA Eastern League. A full-fledged
    "Major League" with coast-to-coast travel, professional players and
    money budgeted for marketing/promotions (a must) will require
    attendances that are higher than what could be reasonably expected. If
    a team can only get 5,000, they can't afford anything more than bus
    road trips. Than means the furthest a Boston team can travel would be
    Detroit, Pittsburgh or Washington. Games could only be on weekends, since 
    the players need to have regular jobs. Only if this is successful can they
    move to the next step. 
    
    Unfortunately the people in power don't (or don't want to) realize
    this.
    
    Tom   

		NH Soccer Festival
		Friday August 7th
	      Londonderry High School
		Londonderry NH
		
6PM
	USA Womens National A team  
			vs  West/North Womens Amateur Team
8PM	USA Womens National B team  
			vs  East/South Womens Amateur Team

Preliminary Matches at 10, 12, 2, and 4pm 
	with New England Olympic Development teams

Tickets available
	Adults $5		Students $4		
		advance teams sales $3 (10 or more youth players)

	one ticket is good for the entire day.

All proceeds to benefit the NH Girls ODP 

to order tickets send check/MO to 
	NH ODP
	PO Box 3544
	Manchester, NH 03105-3544
    

I would probably go to the ocasional sounders game if I had kids old enough 
to appreciate them. 

With a 4 week old I have a tough enough time getting away to the bathroom 
much less a pro sports game.

Last year I might have made the effort to go to 1 game a year but it just 
wouldn't be on my top list of sporting events to go see. I'd rather see a
Seahawks or U of W football game...more atmosphere....

I'm thinking about going to Pasadena for the finals of the world up though...

Metz

                                                                
 
	European Cup, 1st Round 1st leg. Return matches Sept 30
    
	Glentoran (Ire)	        0-5	  Olympic Marseille (Fra)
	AC Milan (Ita)	        4-0	  Olympia Lubijana (Slovenia)
	Lech Poznan (Pol)       2-0	  Skonto Riga (Latvia)
	PSV Eindhoven (Hol)     6-0	  Zalguiris Vilnius (Lith)
	FC Barcelona (Spa)      1-0	  Viking Stavanger (Nor)
	Kuusysi Lahti (Fin)     1-0	  Dynamo Bucharest (Rom)
 	Glasgow Rangers (Sco)   2-0	  Lyngby BK (Den)
	Slovan Bratislava (Cze) 4-1	  Ferencvaros (Hun)
	Austria Vienna	        3-1	  CSKA Sofia (Bul)
	FC Sion	(Switz)	        4-1	  Tavria Simferopol (Mal)
	US Luxembourg	        1-4	  FC Porto (Port)
	Vikingur Reykjavik(Ice) 0-1	  CSKA Moscow (Rus)
	Maccabi Tel Aviv (Isr)  0-1	  FC Bruges (Bel)
	IFK Gothenbourg	(Swe)   2-0	  Beskitas Istanbul (Tur)
	VfB Stuttgart (Ger)     3-0	  Leeds United (Eng)

	European Cup Winners Cup, 1st round, 1st leg
	MKS Miedz Legnica   0-1	  AS Monaco
	Trabzonspor	    2-0	  Turun Palloseura
	Bohemians FC	    0-0	  Steua Bucharest
	Cardiff City	    1-1	  FC Admira Wacher
        AC Parma	    1-0	  Ujpest TE
	Spartak Moscow	    0-0	  Avenir Beggen
	Liverpool FC	    6-1	  Appolon Limassol
	Levski Sofia	    2-1	  FC Lucerne
	Maribor Branik	    0-3	  Atletico Madrid
	Feyenoord Roterdam  1-0	  Petach Tikva

	UEFA Cup, 1st round 1st leg
	Paris St Germain    2-0	  PAOK Salonika
	Lokomotiv Plovdiv   2-2	  AJ Auxerre
	FC Valence	    1-5	  SSC Naples
	Vitesse Arnhem	    3-0	  Derry City
	Casino Salzburg	    0-3	  Ajax Amsterdam
	Sheffield Wednesday 8-1	  S. Luxembourg
	FC Mechelen	    1-0	  Oerbro SK
	VAC FC		    1-0	  FC Groningen
	Manchester United   0-0	  Torpedo Moscow
	Standard Liege	    5-0	  Portadown FC
	FC Copenhagen	    5-0	  Palloilijat
	Widzew Lodz	    2-2	  Eintracht Frankfurt
        IFK Norrkoeping	    1-0	  Torino
	Slavia Prague	    1-0	  Heart of Midlothian
	Dynamo Moscow	    5-1	  Rosenborg NK
	Juventus Turin	    6-1	  Amartois Famagouste
	Dynamo Kiev	    1-0	  Rapid Vienna
	Craiova		    0-6	  Panathinaikos Athens
	Benfica Lisbon	    3-0	  Belvedur Izola
	FC Wacker Innsbruck 1-4	  AS Rome
	Sigma Olomuc	    1-0	  Universitatea Craiova
	GKS Katowice	    0-0	  Galatasaray Istanbuhl
	Politehnica Timisoara 1-1 Real Madrid
	Fenerbahce Isatbuhl 3-1   Botev Plovdiv
	Grasshoppers Zurich 1-2	  Sporting Lisbon

    A few unexpected draws in the World Cup qualifiers Wednesday:
    
    England 1, Norway 1 
    Italy 2, Switzerland 2 
    Holland 2, Poland 2
    Denmark 0, Ireland 0
    Northern Ireland also tied Spain, 0-0.
    
    In all but NI-Spain, the home team (listed first) was favored to win fairly
    solidly. It's still early, but a lot of the groups look like real
    dogfights. Most people expected England and Holland to easily qualify
    from Group 2, but Norway is leading with 7 points from 4 games, but 2
    wins are against San Marino. Holland haven't been able to win yet (lost 
    at Norway, tied Poland). Poland are usually a tough team and always make 
    it difficult. Turkey probably won't qualify, but they will definitely
    take some points away from the others.
    
    Ireland look pretty good in Group 3, with 5 points from 3 games.
    Defending Euro Champ Denmark haven't been able to do anything yet, with 3 
    0-0 draws with Ireland, Lithuania and Latvia. Spain are also
    struggling, with only a win over Albania to go with a couple of ties
    that they should have won.
      
    In group 4, Belgium has a commanding lead, with a perfect record after
    4 games, including an away win over Czechoslovakia. Belgium beat
    Romania, and Wales beat Cyprus Wednesday, both 1-0.
    
    Greece look like they might have a good shot at qualifying from Group
    5, along with Russia, since Yugoslavia have been booted out. Greece has
    2 wins over Iceland and one over Hungary.
    
    Group 1 is just getting started, but Itlay should qualify along with
    either Switzerland, Portugal or Scotland. Switzerland look like the
    most likely, but they still have a lot of games left.
    
    France looked good in beating Austria in Group 6, after an opening loss
    to Bulgaria. Sweden look like they have a decent chance, and Israel
    could also take a few points away.    
    
    Tom

    World Cup schedule. It looks like there is a lot more traveling
    involved for teams as well as their supporters. In past World Cups the
    #1 seeded team from each group stayed in once city for the first round,
    a big advantage. I think we'll hear more than a few complaints once the
    draw is made. Also, visiting fans will have to pay some big bucks,
    since a lot of the travel will have to be done by plane. Realistically,
    only the west coast cities and New Jersey - Washington are the only
    reasonable over-land trips. Boston is grouped with Chicago and Dallas!   
    
    
		      Game 1	       Game 2	      Game 3
Group A, USA (#4)     Pontiac 6/18     Pasadena 6/22  Pasadena 6/26
Group A, Team 2 (#1)  Pontiac 6/18     Pontiac 6/22   Palo Alto 6/26
Group A, Team 3 (#2)  Pasadena 6/18    Pasadena 6/22  Palo Alto 6/26
Group A, Team 4 (#3)  Pasadena 6/18    Pontiac 6/22   Pasadena 6/26

Group B, Team 1	      Pasadena 6/20    Palo Alto 6/24 Pontiac 6/28
Group B, Team 2	      Pasadena 6/20    Pontiac 6/24   Palo Alto 6/28
Group B, Team 3	      Pasadena 6/19    Palo Alto 6/24 Palo Alto 6/28
Group B, Team 4	      Pasadena 6/19    Pontiac 6/24   Pontiac 6/28
    
Group C, Team 1 (Germany) Chicago 6/17 Chicago 6/21   Dallas 6/27
Group C, Team 2       Chicago 6/17     Foxboro 6/23   Chicago 6/27
Group C, Team 3       Dallas 6/17      Chicago 6/21   Chicago 6/27
Group C, Team 4       Dallas 6/17      Foxboro 6/23   Dallas 6/27

Group D, Team 1	      Foxboro 6/21     Foxboro 6/25   Dallas 6/30
Group D, Team 2       Foxboro 6/21     Chicago 6/26   Foxboro 6/30
Group D, Team 3       Dallas 6/21      Foxboro 6/25   Foxboro 6/30
Group D, Team 4       Dallas 6/21      Chicago 6/26   Dallas 6/30

Group E, Team 1	      New Jersey 6/18  New Jersey 6/23 Washington 6/28
Group E, Team 2       New Jersey 6/18  Orlando 6/24    New Jersey 6/28
Group E, Team 3       Washington 6/19  New Jersey 6/23 New Jersey 6/28
Group E, Team 4       Washington 6/19  Orlando 6/24    Washington 6/28
    
Group F, Team 1	      Orlando 6/19     Orlando 6/25    Washington 6/29
Group F, Team 2       Orlando 6/19     New Jersey 6/25 Orlando 6/29
Group F, Team 3       Washington 6/20  Orlando 6/25    Orlando 6/29
Group F, Team 4       Washington 6/20  New Jersey 6/25 Washington 6/29

2nd Round: 
at Chicago        1st Group C vs 3rd Group A, B, or F  July 2 - game 37
at Washington     2nd Group A vs 2nd Group C	       July 2 - game 38
at Pasadena       1st Group A vs 3rd Group C, D, or E  July 3 - game 39
at Dallas         2nd Group F vs 2nd Group B 	       July 3 - game 40
at Palo Alto      1st Group B vs 3rd Group A, C, or E  July 4 - game 41
at Orlando        1st Group F vs 2nd Group E	       July 4 - game 42
at Foxboro        1st Group D vs 3rd Group B, E, or F  July 5 - game 43 
at New Jersey     1st Group E vs 2nd Group D           July 5 - game 44

Quarterfinals:
at Foxboro - game 45    Winner of game 43 vs winner game 38    July 9 
at Dallas - game 46     Winner of game 42 vs winner game 41    July 9
at Palo Alto - game 47  Winner of game 39 vs winner game 40    July 10
at New Jersey - game 48 Winner of game 44 vs winner game 37    July 10

Semifinals:
at New Jersey	      Winner of game 45 vs winner game 48    July 13
at Pasadena	      Winner of game 47 vs winner game 46    July 13

3rd place:
at Pasadena	      Losers of semifinal games	      July 16

Final:
at Pasadena	      Winners of semifinal games      July 17


Allocation of places:
 1  Host	       - USA
 1  Defending Champion - Germany
12  Europe
 3  South America
 3  Africa
 2  Asia
 1  North/Central America
 1  Winner of playoff: Oceana vs N/C America 2nd place --> winner vs 4th    
    South American team  
----
24  Total
                                         

Why Pasadena for the final?

Because it holds so many people?


Any word on how they are gonna transform the Meadowlands into a grass pitch?

    Building a platform at the Meadowlands. The dimensions of the field
    will be a little smaller than FIFA generally requires but they approved
    the change. (75 feet to 73 feet wide I think).
    
    Pasadena holds more people than the Meadowlands.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Pasadena got the nod because it holds 104,000 people. Also, the USSF is
    very California-oriented, with most of the king-pins Lawyers, so it
    seems reasonable enough that it would be there. 
    
    Meadowlands is building a platform so the grass field will be much
    closer to the stands. I'd guess the 1st row would be like a baseball
    first row seat, about a foot or so higher than ground level. As it is
    now, the Meadowlands 1st row is about 8-10 feet higher than the playing
    field. Yes, they did bend the rules for a 73 YARD wide field, 2 yeards
    short of the minimum. The other option would have been to bypass New
    York, which they didn't want to do.
    
    They are also growing grass in the Cotton Bowl in Dallas. The reason
    why Pontiac only got 4 first round games is that they were worried that
    the grass field wouldn't last more than 2 weeks. I knew people in
    college who grew grass indoors with no problems, so I don't know what
    they are worried about :-)
    
    Tom 

    My son scored another goal on Saturday with 2 minutes left in the game
    to forge the tie (1-1).  That makes 6 goals in 4 games for Pel� Jr.
    
    Mike

    
     Kid sound pretty good Mike...  Soccer is a great game.  Outta
    get him signed up for indoor...  It's a blast to play and a hell
    of a lot more exciting to watch.  I play indoor and out door
    (except this year) and love the game.  I mostly play full back or 
    Goalie...  Speed is not one of my greatest assets.  ;^)
    
    BG

    Well he's fairly tall for his age too and is pretty good at hoops 
    too.  I'm learning a lot about the game though since I never played it.
    That's how I know he gets the ability from my wife's heritage ;-)
    
    Mike

    
     Well, Mike your dad was a pretty good softball player. It's strange
    how athletic ability can just skip a generation, ain't it ?

    Ha, I'd bet I'd school you in hoops, oh talentless wonder!

  >> -< still own some records in Clinton's Little League >-

     That must really impress the chicks.

  >> Ha, I'd bet I'd school you in hoops, oh talentless wonder!

     Mike, you'd be better off trying to convert the Dalai Lama
     than to try to take me on in hoops because I'd beat you like
     you stole something.
    
    

	I went to a girls soccer game yesterday and had a question for
	someone who might know more about this sport than I. (Which would
	include just about everyone.)

	It was a semifinal state championship game between Central High
	(Manchester, NH) and Merrimack High.  After regulation ended the
	score was 1-1.  They then put 10 minutes on the clock and started
	a new period.  Merrimack scored....game over? Nope, just kept
	playing.  Merrimack scored again before the end of the period so
	the score was 3-1. Game over....Wrong again, another ten minute
	period was played.  No additonal scoring so Merrimack wins, finally!

	My question is whether this is SOP or some quirky overtime rule that
	was thunk up by the NHIAA (New Hampshire Interscholastic Athletic
	Association)?

	By the way, regulation time was two 30(I think) halves played with
	a running clock.

	
	Bill

>     That must really impress the chicks.
    
    I don't need that to impress, besides I'm taken.  How many records do
    you hold, anywhere?

>     Mike, you'd be better off trying to convert the Dalai Lama
>     than to try to take me on in hoops because I'd beat you like
>     you stole something.
    
    Hey, you know where I live ;-).  Talk is cheap.

    
     Well, Mike if I used smiley I'd have used them in my last reply but
    I don't so I didn't. If that makes any sense. Anyways, there may be 
    records that I hold somewhere for something but being so long ago I 
    don't much care anymore. Nowadays, on the rare occasions I do play 
    pickup anything, it's because I enjoy it because I'm not a very comp-
    etitive person anymore sportswise. In fact, I'd usually rather be running 
    or lifting by myself.
    

    As I remember, your brother was the athlete.

    re .349
    
    Bill, 
    
    I dunno what rules they use in NH for HS soccer, but the "extra time"
    is a fairly standard determination of breaking ties. In the World Cup, 
    if a game ends tied, they play one 30-minute period, and if it's still 
    tied they go to a penalty kick shootout. Maybe the NH HS rules call for
    2 periods just to switch ends for the sun/wind advanage.
    
    FIFA has been considering cnages in this format for a while, since a
    lot of people don't liek the shootout. For some reason they don't go for 
    sudden death OT, but that's definitely one of the things they are
    considering. Other considerations are to play full field, but reduce
    the # of players (creating more scoring chances).
    
    Tom  

    The following article appeared in today's Boston Globe -
    
    
    Key Matchup seen for Foxboro
    
    	One of the most intriguing matchups of next year's international
    soccer schedule will likely occour when Brazil meets Germany June 10 at
    Foxboro Stadium.  The match could be part of a doubleheader involving
    the US and England in the US Cup competition, which was announced
    yesterday.
    	The tournament will begin June 6 with the US and Brazil meeting at
    the Yale Bowl in New Haven and conclude June 19 with England playing
    Germany at the Silverdome in Pontiac, Mich.  No other sites have been
    finalized because of potential logistical problems at the Silverdome
    and Soldier Field in Chicago.
    	"This is the most important rehearsal for World Cup 1994," said
    Horst Schmidt, an executive with the Federation Internationale de
    Football Associations.  "Along with the matches, this will allow us to
    bring the venue directors together to prepare for the World Cup."
    	This would be the first time that the national teams of Brazil,
    England or Germany compete in the Boston area and indicates that Brazil
    could be based at Foxboro Stadium during the World Cup, scheduled June
    17-July 17, 1994.  Brazil and Germany (AND ITALY - error in article) are 
    the only three-time winners of the Cup.
    	As with last year's US Cup, event organizers appear to be relying
    on Foxboro Stadium to play host to a weekday afternoon match (Brazil
    and Germany would meet at 4pm on a Thursday) and possible one other
    match.  The Brazil-England match June 12 had been scheduled for
    Chicago, but could be changed because of a renovation project at
    Soldier Field.  Also, since no site has been chosen for US-Germany June
    9, there is a chance that a doubleheader involving all four teams could
    be played at Foxboro Stadium June 10.
    	"That they would even consider an international doubleheader at
    Foxboro Stadium is the besst evidence that New England is the strongest
    international soccer market in the US," said Bob Caporale, chairman of
    Boston Soccer '94.
    	FIFA had directed that two matches be scheduled in the Silverdome
    in order to test the porspect of growing grass indoors.  However, a
    Paul McCartney concert has disrupted those plans and possible
    jeopardized the Silverdome's prospects of playing host to four World
    Cup matches in 1994.
    	"Boston is a great venue, it has a great organizing committee and we
    have had great success there," US Cup official Richard Groff said.
    	Groff said the Massachusetts Amateur State Soccer Association would
    receive 2.5 percent of the gross gate of the Foxboro matches.
    	The national team coaches of Brazil (Carlos Alberto Parreira),
    England (Graham Taylor) and Germany (Berti Vogts) said they would
    attempt to bring all of their top players to the tournament.  That
    should not be difficult for Germany, since as defencing champion it
    does not play qualifying matches.  England must play qualifiers May 29
    at Poland and June 2 against Norway.  Brazil has the toughest task
    because most of its best players are under contract to European clubs.
    	"It is important to promote football all over the world and to
    bring the best possible players to the best tournaments," said
    Parreira.  "We will cooperate as much as possible."
    
    
    Also, Portugese team Benfica Lisbon will play Italy's AC Milan on July
    31 in Foxboro in a rematch of the 1990 European Club championship.