Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Question regarding the playoffs: What will the second round matchups
    be (i.e., Buffalo, LA Raiders, NY Giants, and San Francisco will play
    the winners of which games?).
    
    
    py

    The teams will be reseeded so Buffalo and San Francisco will play the
    lower remaining seeds after this weekend.
    
    Buffalo will play Houston if Houston beats Cincinnati and Los Angeles
    will play the winner of the Kansas City at Miami game.  If Cincinnati
    beats Houston, then Los Angeles plays Cincinnati and Buffalo plays the
    Kansas City at Miami winner.
    
    San Francisco will play New Orleans if the Saints beat Chicago and New
    York will play the winner of the Washington at Philadelphia game.  If
    Chicago beats New Orleans, then Chicago plays New York and San
    Francisco plays the winner of the Washington - Philadelphia game.
    
    John

    
    I've heard to different versions of that, John.  I thought yours was
    correct, but I heard yesterday (on one of the network promos) that the
    seeding was set throughout, rather than having reseeding after next
    week.
    
    Bruce

    From everything I've read in the papers and in the NFL Manual for this
    season, it's a reseeding.
    
    John

 John, I think Buffalo gets the cinncy/oilers winner no matter what both
 have worst records than either KC or Miami...

 mike

    The Division winners are seeded 1-3, so Cincy is the 3rd seed.  Despite
    Miami and KC having a better record than Cincy, Miami is seeded 4th and
    KC 5th.  Houston is seeded 6th.
    
    John

 Thanks John, should have know better than to question the 'master'...

 ;^)

 mike

    And try reading that quickly and having it make any sort of sense!
    
    A&W

    	Kind of sad to see the 11-5 Chiefs have to travel to the 12-4
    Dolphins while one of two teams from a patsy division will get to
    move on to the next round of the playoffs.
    
    				/Don

    Not to worry Don ...... the Chiefs should rush for about a zillion
    yards against that defense.
    
    
    Greg

    I haven't heard much on the subject but I think the new 17 week
    schedule and the addition of wild card teams has messed the NFL
    up. It makes the entire season more complex. Can anyone substantiate
    that next season will be 18 weeks with each team having 2 byes? 
    
    BoB

I agree BoB. 

The added week should be eliminated. as well as the 3rd wildcard team is pure 
do-do. 

Dallas isn't a playoff contender yet. and N.O is a very scary team because if 
they put together a couple of wins a .500 team will be in the NFC championship
game. 

The biggest reason is the week off just kills Fantasy football teams. 

Jeff

    Next year is a 17-week schedule with each team only having one week
    off.  Everything starts a week sooner - the Hall of Fame game and
    overseas games are the last weekend in July.  The preseason games are
    the first 4 weekends in August.  The regular season starts September 1
    (the Sunday of Labor Day weekend) and ends the weekend of December
    21-23.  The first round of the playoffs is December 29-30, the second
    round is January 4-5, the Conference Championship games are January 12
    and the Super Bowl is in Minneapolis January 26.  What will probably be
    one of the last of the Pro Bowls will be in Honolulu on February 2.
    
    The 16 games in 18 weeks schedule doesn't begin until the 1992 season.
    
    John

    RE: "What will probabaly be the last Pro Bowl..." AMEN! Football,
    unlike other sports, just doesn't lend itself too well to All-Star
    games. While baseball has the time honored tradition of the midsummer
    classic and basketball as a showcase event for colorful plays, dunk and
    3-point contests and no D, football players are begging out of playing
    the Pro Bowl. The injury risk is just too great for todays stars. Nothing 
    worse than a football game with no contact.
    
    Tom

	Sources from Battle Creek Michigan (home of the NFL scheduling 
offices) have indicated that the NFL is working on a new and improved 
schedule that will have the NFL regular season ending before Valentines Day 
and the Super Bowl played around St. Patrick's Day.  The hope is to have
national legislation passed moving Saint Pattie's Day to the 2nd Sunday of
March and subsequently schedule the Super Bowl on that day.  The reason behind
this move is that since both dates (Super Bowl and Saint Patrick's Day) 
involve many scheduled parties and mass consumption of alchohol the combination 
of the two could yield a Saint Patrick's Super Bowl Extravaganza.

	While Commissioner Paul Tagliabue denied the reports it has been 
reported in Washington circles that Senator Jack Kemp is lobbying hard 
for a national Saint Patrick's Day holiday and top sources from deep within 
the vaults at NFL Central have come forward with the new NFL expansion plan
and 25 game season schedule.  Apparently the NFL plans to expand to "any 
city that will pay us lots of money".  And the new 25 game season along 
with being a true measuring stick for a real champion "will keep our 
pockets lined with TV money for the next half a century".

Actually, I think the whole thing sucks.

I mean, this stuff with byes and 16 games in 18 weeks is stupid.
And so many playoff teams is almost like hockey.  It would have
looked really great it New Orleans had choked on a chicken bone
Monday, and Dallas made the playoffs with a 7-9 record.

Not that I wasn't rooting for Dallas, but when they lost to
Atlanta, that was (and SHOULD HAVE been IT)....

Just a bunch of money grubbing owners.  Sheesh!

Give me back 16 weeks starting the weekend after labor day.
Take out the two weeks of hype before the Stupor Bowl, and make
it one week after the last playoff game.  Get REAL....

Disgruntled,
'Saw

    RE: -.1
    
    I read the same article in the paper myself :-)  Small nit.  Jack Kemp
    is not a US Senator.  He is the head of the Dept. of Housing and Urban
    Development (HUD).  He was previously a US Representative from 
    Hamburg, NY (just outside Buffalo).  Can anybody remember what team he
    used to QB ???  If you know me, you know the team.
    
    Paul

�If you know me, you know the team.
    

The Little Sisters of the Poor?  8^)

Gee, it wouldn't have been the Buffalo Bills (back when they had that
placid tranquil buffalo on their helmet) by any chance?


'Saw

>	Sources from Battle Creek Michigan (home of the NFL scheduling 
>offices) have indicated that the NFL is working on a new and improved 
>schedule that will have the NFL regular season ending before Valentines Day 
    
    I just know this isn't true.  Everyone knows that the schedules are
    made in New York, where considerable influence is peddled to ensure
    that the Giants have an easier schedule than they deserve.
    
    Dan

================================================================================
Note 5.17              The National Football League (NFL)               17 of 19
CAM::MAZUR "It ain't the meat, it's the lotion."      9 lines   2-JAN-1991 15:20
�                              -< Senator Kemp ?? >-

	Poetic license.  I remember when Jack Kemp quarterbacked the Bills.
I remember the 1967 AFL Championship game with the Kansas City Chiefs.  
Kemp was the quarterback in that one.  I think the score was 31-0 Kansas 
City.  8^)

				/Don

Well, the Maze will probably pull some rabbit outta his hat for me
saying this, but I'll say:

	Buffalo Bills - Always the Bridesmaid, never the Bride...

    
    Speaking of Buffalo, and seeing how they own the home-field advantage
    throughout the playoffs, wouldn't it be great if both the qualifier and
    championship games were played in massive blizzards in sub-sub-zero
    temperatures?  I don't like games played in antiseptic domes, but
    football was meant to played in the autumn and maybe part of December,
    and the NFL keeps pushing that window further and further out...
    
    glenn
    

Even better would be to have a game played in such horrible conditions that a 
majority of the fans couldn't get there. Maybe we could have a star player or
two manage to not be able to get to the game. The NFL will refuse to reschedule 
it and there would be a great cry from the masses.

Or the game would have to be called at 1/2 time because of frostbite to some
of the players.....

Two weeks ago Dale Ellis didn't arrive at the Sonics game until after the
half because traffic was so tied up that his limo was incredibly late to
his house (FYI - This was in the middle of thestorm we had last week, Ellis
can't drive himself because of a DUI conviction this summer)

Get rid of the week off. It unfairly benefits some teams who have the week
off toward the end of the season and penalizes those who have it early.

Metz

      I agree that it should be 1 week off before the super bowl.  2 weeks
    off starting in 92??  Thats bunk!!
    
      The extra wild card is ok, except those 8-8 or 7-9 teams can make it. 
    It will turn into a joke if the NFL gets more balanced, which IMO is
    AFC vs NFC wise.
    
      	T-bone

>            -< Must make the Giants a good team, mustn't the NFL? >-

>    I just know this isn't true.  Everyone knows that the schedules are
>    made in New York, where considerable influence is peddled to ensure
>    that the Giants have an easier schedule than they deserve.
    
    Dan, surely you jest! I thought it was so the Jets could have the 
easiest schedule :^) Is there any proof here, or just a little paranoia? 

	Jim M

    OK, here we go (ya hit a nerve)
    
    First of all, Buffalo is not as cold as people are led to believe. 
    After I moved to Connecticut, I was amazed to find out that the average
    January temperature is colder here than in Buffalo.  Why does Buffalo
    get the 'cold' reputation?  
    
    Well, it's because of the wind.  Buffalo is 2nd (maybe 3rd) on the
    windiest cities list.  I believe that Chicago was not even in the top
    10 (11th I think).
    
    OK, you say.  So you hear of the wind, ya's only hear about the SNOW.
    Well, the snow is not as bad as you are led to believe.  Yes, it's
    worse than it is hear in CT (or MASS or downstate NY), but it's not as
    bad as you may hear on TV pr radio.  Again, after I moved to Ct, I was 
    amazed to find out that the media will report a raging blizzard in
    Buffalo when in fact there was not a flake in the city.  After hearing
    of a major snowstorm in my hometown, I would call my parents, they
    would say, "What snow ?  It only snowed in Jamestown" (Jamestown is
    halfway to Cleveland).  Buffalo's average winter snowfall is ~90 inches.
    Twenty-thirty miles south of the city, the average is probably 150 inches.
    
    The reason for this difference:  THE WIND.  It's called lake-effect
    snow.  Normally the prevailing winds will blow snow daily onto the
    towns south of the city.  It is not uncommon to hear weather forecasts:
       trace-1" in the city, 8-12" in the snow belts.
    What happens on occasion will be that the winds shift and WHAMMO!  all
    of the false publicity that Buffalo gets are suddenly verified with
    real live footage.
    
    So in closing, Buffalo has MUCH better weather than most anywhere in
    the Northeast.  They have milder winters (though a bit more
    precipitation) than cities like Green Bay, Detroit, Minneapolis,
    Chicago, Cleveland.  Buffalo record ALL-TIME low is -22 (I am willing
    to bet that the other cities mentioned cities get A LOT colder) and it
    rarely gets below zero (but wind makes up for that).

    re .26:
    
    > Well, it's because of the wind.  Buffalo is 2nd (maybe 3rd) on the
    > windiest cities list.  I believe that Chicago was not even in the top
    > 10 (11th I think).
    
    Correct, Chicago was not in the top 10 on that list.  Believe it or
    not, Boston was on that list.
    
    
    py

    Oh yeah.  One more thing about the placid grazing Buffalo on the old
    Bills helmets.  They originally just changed the Buffalo to have the
    stripe going through it to look like a charging Buffalo but they kept
    the white background.  But Joe Ferguson (aka Smokin' Joe) was having a
    tough season, so he reationalized that if he could see his receiver's
    helmets better, he would complete more passes.  So that's when the red
    helmets came about.  That didn't seem to work.  

Gee, I'll bet all that wind in Buffalo is flatulence 8^)....

And Paul Y, you are right about Boston.  Didn't they have a problem a
while ago with window falling out of the Hancock Tower because of the
wind?

Personally, regarding the Bills helmets, I like the logo now better
than the old ones.  Unless I'm on drugs, I think they and the Jets
are the only old AFL team to have changed their logos.....

'Saw

    Chicago is called the "windy city" not because of the actual mph
    of moving air masses, but because of the excessive loquaciousness
    of its denizens.
    
    Sometime in the late 1800's or early 1900's, the mayor of Chicago
    was nicknamed "Windy" because of his ability to go on forever about
    issues of little import.  Politicians don't change much :-)
    
    A&W

    Frank,
    
    Didn't the Patriot's helmet change in some small, barely noticeable way ?
    I thought the patriot on the helmet was looking in a different
    direction.  Also, didn't the Browns helmet used to say BROWNS on them ?
    Hmmm... maybe we ate the same sportshrooms Frank.
    
    -Paul

    You guys are all crazy, especially Willard "Mazur" Scott.  Move south. 
    You'll never regret it.
    
    	--dan'l

>    Dan, surely you jest! I thought it was so the Jets could have the 
>easiest schedule :^) Is there any proof here, or just a little paranoia? 
    
    Not solid proof on the schedule.  THere's always one game a year that
    seems like it doesn't belong though.  Each of the last two years they
    had Detroit in the schedule, neither time did it look like they really
    belonged.
    
    But there is solid proof that the NFL has helped the Giants more than
    any other team in being successful.  After all, where did George Young
    come from, the architect of this team?
    
    Dan

    re .31:
    
    > Didn't the Patriot's helmet change in some small, barely noticeable way ?
    
    Yeah, the Patriot on the helmet now has a paper bag over his head. :-)
    
    
    py

    
   > But there is solid proof that the NFL has helped the Giants more than
   > any other team in being successful.  After all, where did George Young
   > come from, the architect of this team?
    
   > Dan
    
     Dan,
       Care to enlighten me with your "solid proof"? And be careful as you 
    try and pull your foot outta your mouth. Wouldn't want you breaking any
    teeth. :^> 
    
    Bull~
              

    When Tim Mara, Sr, founder of the Giants, died, control of the team
    passed to his sons, Wellington and Jack.  Jack Mara died far too young
    and control of the team passed to his son, Tim.  Tim and Wellington
    have never gotten along, and as a result, the Giants degenerated into
    chaos.  Pete Rozelle mediated the dispute and as I understand it,
    George Young emerged as the compromise candidate for a General Manager
    for the team.  Everyone else the two Maras ever agreed on (ie, Andy
    Robustelli) was incompetent.
    
    Rozelle helped to get a chaotic franchise under control and he then
    (and Tagliabue now) would probably do the same for any team that needed
    it.
    
    John

    re .34
    
    There is little doubt that the NFL helped the Giants in recruiting
    George Young, or that a strong Giants team helps the NFL.
    
    To say that the Giants get favorable scheduling is not fair, especially
    when you see how often they've played SF lately.  The NFC East has
    generally been a tough division, which makes the schedule difficult. 
    After that, the NFL has rules as to what teams play each other.
    
    
    Bruce
    

    >Rozelle helped to get a chaotic franchise under control and he then
    >(and Tagliabue now) would probably do the same for any team that needed
    >it.
    
    I don't think so.  THere's been plenty of teams which have been
    bedeviled by their front office, the Pats and Jets to name two, and the
    NFL barely blinked at that incompetence.  The obvious financial rewards
    of having a successful Giant franchise and the old-guardism in the
    league is what has led to I believe an unprecedented league interest in
    the Giants.
     
    LT is another such example.
    
    Dan

re: .35 Rollin', Paul


RE: earlier

Know what you mean about the Weather people reporting snow if it's
anywhere in the vicinity. Same thing happens in Colorado. We get a
surprising amount of warm days in the winter. Last year in Feb. I was
out on the deck in a pair of shorts, kicking back with a beer and
watching some hoops. It was about mid-sixties and sunny. My folks called
from Illinois to ask about the `blizzard' they had seen reported for
Colorado.

Mike JN

    The Raiders used to have just silver helmets with a black stripe
    down the middle, then they added the dude with the patch and the
    swords. I think the Bengals added the tiger stripes too? Hmmm?
    
    Carlos

    [START SMILIES HERE]
       Dan,
        Believe what you want. No matter what anyone says, if it
    opposes your thinking, is either wrong, or they're mistaken or 
    they've misunderstood what you said. Have you ever admitted
    that you goofed?
    
    [END SMILIES HERE]
       On your LT comment...What instances are you talking about?
    I know he hasn't been a saint, but I would like to know where
    you're comin' from before I attack.
    
        Joe Namath was overly hyped by the AFL to try and generate
    some interest in that other NY franchise.
    
    Bull~
    

       >On your LT comment...What instances are you talking about?
    
    Has gotten away with a ton.  Twice publicly caught by the league;
    numerous other instances which have been conveniently been swept under
    the rug.  For example, was found passed out in his car early one
    morning on the NJ Turnpike since his second suspension.  Claimed food
    poisoning got him sick and forced to pull over.  It's not an isolated
    case.  His name has turned up many times in the NY/NJ area, but the NFL
    doesn't seem that interested.
    
    No comment on Young?
    
    Joe Namath = Julius Erving.  You can't claim your the best (NFL, NBA)
    when the best player, the player the fans want to see isn't even in
    your league.
    
    Dan

    
       No, no comment on Young. I knew how he became GM. I just
    don't see any "NFL favoritism" involved so I didn'e see a need
    to comment. Just my opinion, of course.
       
        So LT was asleep on the NJ Turnpike. Musta been heavily into
    drugs that day. In this country, it's innocent until proven guilty 
    (except in instances of ticket contests in ::SPORTS). Although he 
    DID have some past run-in's with drug use, there is no evidence of 
    any usage since his 2nd suspension. "Numerous other instances conven-
    iently swept under the rug." Where do you read this? The Enquirer?
    
    Bull~
    

I can't fathom for the life of me why people (fans,sportscasters,etc...) can 
love LT so and yet in the same breath slam Dexter Manly. IMHO the guy is a 
multiple drug loser who has benefitted greatly by the NFL's casual look the
other way because he plays for the Giants.

I get soooooo sick of hearing the media fall at his feet and pay him homage
whenever he does anything on the football field while equal stars get ignored.

Granted he's a great football player but he's been caught many times breaking 
the rules of his employment and everybody still loves him.

Now I'd need some proof before I subscribe to the coverup theory that Dan is
suggesting but I wouldn't put it past the NFL based on what I've seen the
media make him into.

No Jets bias here just speaking about what I've observed over the years in
regards to the preferential treatement given to the Giants.

Metz
 

    Manley gets many more positive things said about his personality than
    LT does.  The mdeia loves Dexter because he is outspoken.  The love for
    LT comes from his on field performance.  To say that Dexter is treated
    better (who is back playing after a 3-time suspension?) by the
    media/fans is ridiculous.  Look at the level of play.  I'm not sure
    Dexter is of NFL caliber anymore.
    
    Bruce

I'm going based on what I've listened to and read the last 7-8 years Bruce.
Maybe it's the constant stroking that Madden gives to LT that influences me so.
I know I hear a lot more about LT than I do about Manly. 

Personally I think LT has been caught more than 2 times and it has been swept
under the rug so they can avoid the lifetinme (1yr) suspension. Do I have proof?
Nope..just a gut feeling..

Just look at how many noters felt that Manly should have been banned for 
eternity for his transgressions yet you hear nothing about LT's drug use.

Metz

I'd rather discuss helmets than LT....

The Bengals were not an original AFL team.  They came in with the
1970 merger (with the Saints) and came into the AFCs first year.

I don't know about the Raiders helmets though.  I started following
football in 1966, and they had the little guy with the eyepatch 
then (always thought that was a wicked cool helmet), so it could
have been different earlier...

Original AFL teams I remember:

		Miami
		KC
		Oakland
		Boston (now New England)
		New York Jets
		Houston Oilers
		Buffalo Bills
		Denver Broncos
		San Diego Chargers


Did I forget anybody?

With the merger, three NFL teams moved to the AFC:  Baltimore,
Pittsburgh, Cleveland.....

Hope I'm right!

'Saw

    re .48:
    
    Miami was not an original AFL team, they came into the AFL a year or
    two before the Bengals.
    
    
    py

     Metz,
        Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there is no way that
    LT is guilty, it's possible. I'm just looking for proof. Sure
    there's a chance that some of his tests have come back positive
    and the NFL swept it under the rug. *I* doubt it, though.
    
        I agree, LT is a media darling. Every sport has 'em.
    
        You're all just jealous :^>
    
     Bull~
    

    Nope, the AFL started with 8 teams. In the East were Boston, Buffalo,
    the NY Titans (Jets) and Houston. The West had Oakland, Denver, the
    Dallas Texans and the LA Chargers. A year later the Chargers moved
    south and the Texans became the KC Chiefs. 
    
    At this time the NFL had just expanded to 12 teams with Dallas and
    Minnesota. The Cardinals had jsut moved from Chicago to St. Louis.
    
    In 1966, both the NFL & AFL were looking to expand New Orleans went to 
    the NFL and Cinncinati to the AFL and both leagues wanted to land a team 
    in Altanta. The NFL won, and the AFL went to Miami. 

    >   No, no comment on Young. I knew how he became GM. I just
    >don't see any "NFL favoritism" involved so I didn'e see a need
    >to comment. Just my opinion, of course.
    
    Waitaminute!  The NFL enters the Giants front office mess, which has
    effectively comatized the team for a decade, and in one fall swoop
    solves the problem and *gives* the Giants one of the best GMs in the
    business, and you don't see favoritism?  Has anything like this
    happened for ANY other team that you can think of?  The success of the
    Giants for the last decade is directly to Rozelle's stepping in and
    unprecedented meddling.  
     
    Since it is your opinion that this doesn't constitute favoritism, and
    you choose to believe that LT has been a choir boy, exactly what do you
    think is the NFLs attitude to the Giants and to what lengths would the
    NFL have to stretch for their to be favoritism?
    
    Dan

    
    I heard today that the Jets do not have a 1st round pick, as they used
    it in the supplemental last year.  Does anyone know for sure?  
    
    
    Bruce

    Dan,
       Where did I said LT was a choirboy? Don't go puttin' words
    in my mouth.
    
       The George Young case was one instance. Your original statement
    said that you had solid proof that the Giants received preferential
    treatment more that any other NFL team. Don't tell me that the 
    league didn't step in (behind the scenes) and help engineer the
    Elway trade so that they (the NFL) wouldn't lose a drawing card
    to baseball. I know Elway wouldn't have been a draw in baseball,
    but heck, Steinbrenner was offering $100,000 for a minor league
    contract. Elway was givin' it some thought.
    
    Bull~
    

Re Miami....okay, that happened before I started watching football.

But Cincy and NO I'm sure were in 1970, because they changed the division
all around.  When Green Bay went to the bowl in 1967, they had won from
the old two division format....

And thanks for the pointer on the Chiefs.  I knew that they fit in with
the Texans somehow but couldn't remember....

'Saw

    Wasn't Houston formerly known as the Colt 45's before they became the
    Oilers????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Jake,
    
    	It twas the Astros.
    
    Claybroon

    Bull, what did the league do for Elway?  They may have facilitated a
    trade to a team he would sign with (Yanks were never anything more than
    a smokescreen), but I think it pales in comparision to what the league
    did for the Giants.  Again, I ask for an example of another team
    receiving similar favoritism by the league.  Elway ain't it.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
       The league did nothing for Elway. I was citing the Colts-Denver
    trade as just one possible example of where the NFL did something
    for another team (in this case 2 teams) to help them out. You had
    mentioned that the league intervened in the Giants behalf and tried
    to make it sound like that the Giants were the only ones to get
    this sort of treatment. I was citing an example to show otherwise.
    Sure, Elway-to-Denver doesn't compare to the Young appointment. Then 
    again, that situation and those circumstances rarely happen. Neither 
    party, in the Giants case, was going to budge (sorta like this discussion)
    and the team was dying. The league applied the paddles and jolted them
    back to life. The Jets and Pats (an example you gave in an earlier
    note) are at least making some progress.
    
    Bull~
    
    

    I reread my information about the Giants and George Young last night
    and I was wrong - Pete Rozelle didn't step in unasked - the Maras asked
    him to step in, because they realized they'd never get anywhere acting
    on their own.
    
    Not only does this, to me, refute the allegation of favorable treatment
    but I will stand by what I said originally - the Commissioner will step
    in, when asked, to help a team that needs it but won't step in
    otherwise.
    
    John
                 

    
    Re:  Back a few on the Pats' logo
    
    If memory serves me correctly (and you know how hard it is to get good
    service nowadays), there were just a couple of minor changes to the
    Pats logo since its inception.  One was that it was made bigger on the
    helmets, because the tee-vee folks thought the design was too "busy"
    and could not be easily identified on the little screen.
    
    The other had something do do with, of all things, the facial
    expression of the Patriot dude bending over the football.  I believe
    the original guy had kind of a teeth-gritting snarl, while the logo
    I have here in the office has him with sort of a wry, leering smile on
    his face (feces-consuming grin, if you will) that says, "Go ahead, make
    my day."
    
    Dickstah
    

 Now if we could just get the Clemson refs(tm) up here to throw flags on the
 oppossision's td's we'd really have Dan loosing sleep....

 :^)

 mike                 

    RE: Elway trade
    
    How likely do you think Elway would have signed with the Yankees if
    thetrade had NOT been made? I think there are a lot of cases these days
    wher players don't want to play in certain cities, but Elway had a
    little more leverage. My memory may be sketchy, but I don't think Elway
    was considered as much of a sure thing for baseball, and I also seem to
    remember his problem with the Colts had more to do with Frank Kush than 
    anything else. Do you suppose that if they called his bluff and made
    him go to the Colts, Baltimore would still have a team?
    
    RE NFL Alignment:
    
    They switched the divisions around every few years in the 60s, it
    seems. I think this is more or less how it looked:
    
    1950s (12 teams):  East: New York, Philadelphia, Washington. Cleveland,
    Detroit, Pittsburgh. West: Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago Bears, 
    Chicago Cardinals, Green Bay, Baltimore.       
    
    1960 (14 Teams): Same as above, adding Dallas to the East and Minnesota
    to the West.
    
    1965 or 66 (16 teams) EASTERN CONFERENCE: Capitol Division: Dallas,
    New York, Philadelphia, Washington. Century Division: Cleveland, New
    Orleans, Pittsburgh, St. Louis. WESTERN CONFERENCE: Central Division:
    Chicago, Detroit, Green Bay, Minnesota. Coastal Division: Atlanta, 
    Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Francisco.
    
    I think a lot of the owners didn't like this setup, since it broke up
    soome rivalries. There was a lot of emphasis of ptting at least one
    warmm-weather team in each division. Everyone wante the Saints in their
    division, since they were a weak team (2 wins a year almost guaranteed)
    they were a warm weather team and they had good fan support in a large
    stadium. A year later, the Giants and Saints switched divisions for a year,
    but by the 1970 merger, the whole thing was scapped for the AFC-NFC format 
    that exists today.

    
    This info is from the Sports View section of T.V. Guide.
    
    "Why did the NFL feel compelled to expand the playoffs? And why did
    ABC wind up with a first-round doubleheader? 
    During the latest round of contract negotiations, NFL commisioner
    Paul Tagliabue told ABC that if the netweork wanted to keep its
    Monday-night package through 1993, it would have to cough up
    $900 million - an 80 percent hike in its rights fee that horrified
    Capital Cities/ABC's largest shareholder, financier Warren Buffet.
    Would ABC pass on the deal? In the end, no. Network boss Dan Burke
    worked out a compromise: two more teams get into the Super Bowl
    tourney. ABC gets additional involvement in the post-season play -
    and the NFL keeps collecting record rights fees."
    

      
    Regarding the Elway trade...
       To tell ya the truth, I threw that out there to get a rise
    outta Dan. That is quite a far-fatched example, but I think
    I got my point across. The league tries not to play favorites
    where their intervention is concerned. Or at least tries to
    make it look like they're not playing favorites.
    
    Bull~
    

Re .48

>I'd rather discuss helmets than LT....
>
>I don't know about the Raiders helmets though.  I started following
>football in 1966, and they had the little guy with the eyepatch 
>then (always thought that was a wicked cool helmet), so it could
>have been different earlier...
>
>'Saw
 
    Hey 'Saw, I started following football in 1976 and they definitely
    did not have the little dude with the patch and the swords on their
    helmets then, and I know that they didn't have old one eye from
    '72-'76 because a friend collects football cards and old one eye isn't
    on any of the helmets during this time period. Not to sure if they
    ever had it on the helmet before '72, but I know they added it on
    somewhere in between '76 and '81.
      
    Carlos

Gee, I guess we just have to ask John Hendry to give us the
official word....

John, can you possibly dredge up some info on:

	the teams in the league and when they came in (say from 1960 on)
	for AFL, NFL, divisions etc.

	helmet info....

What would the Raiders have had before the eyepatch dude?  I'm sure
it was there when the Packers played the Raiders and kicked their
heinies in Super Bowl II.....

'Saw

    I can't think of any old highlight films where the Raiders didn't have
    the patch.  But I do know it was there in the mid-70's.  On those cards
    you saw Carlos, the players were probably wearing their practice
    helmets.  Most teams don't have their logos on their practice helmets.
    
    Joe
    
    

    According to the USA Today the NFL draft order is:
    
    	1 - New England		(1-15)
    	2 - Cleveland		(3-13)
    	3 - Atlanta		(5-11)
    	4 - tie  Rams		(5-11)  They'll flip a coin on Tuesday
    		 Denver		(5-11)  to decide who is 4th & 5th.
    	6 - Phoenix		(5-11)
    	7 - Tampa Bay		(6-10)
    	8 - NYJets		(6-10)  No pick...supplemental
    	9 - tie  San Diego	(6-10)  They'll flip a coin on Tuesday
     		 Green Bay	(6-10)  to decide who is 9th & 10th.
       11 - Detroit		(6-10)
       12 - Dallas from Minn	(7-9)
       13 - Dallas		(7-9)
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    I will go back and look at a book I have called "The Other League" and
    check for the Raider helmet issue.  If memory serves, they have always
    had the same helmet with Patch.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    The reason you don't see helmet designs on older football cards is
    because the card companies like Topps did not have a licensing
    agreement with the NFL then and thus could not use the trademarked
    emblems on their cards.
    
    That's why you see all those blank helmets.  The emblems have been
    airbrushed off the proofs.
    
    Most current cards do show the emblems now.  Must be some contracts
    between the NFL and the card manufacturers in place by now.
    
    Bob Hunt

    1988	St Louis Cardinals move to Phoenix
    1984	Baltimore Colts move to Indianapolis
    1982	Oakland Raiders move to Los Angeles
    1976	Seattle and Tampa Bay, NFL Expansion franchises.
    1970	Merger becomes official.  Pittsburgh, Cleveland and
    		Baltimore move from NFC to AFC
    1968	Cincinnati enters AFL
    1967	New Orleans enters NFL
    1966	Atlanta enters NFL, Miami enters AFL
    1963	New York Titans become New York Jets
    		Dallas Texans become Kansas City Chiefs
    1961	Minnesota Vikings enter NFL
    		Los Angeles Chargers move to San Diego
    1960	Dallas Cowboys enter NFL
    		Chicago Cardinals move to St Louis
    		AFL is formed consisting of the Boston Patriots, Buffalo
    		Bills, Dallas Texans, Denver Broncos, Houston Oilers, Los
    		Angeles Chargers, New York Titans and Oakland Raiders
    
    		At this point the NFL consisted of the Baltimore Colts,
    		Chicago Bears, Chicago Cardinals, Cleveland Browns, Detroit
    		Lions, Green Bay Packers, Los Angeles Rams, New York
    		Giants, Philadelphia Eagles, Pittsburgh Steelers, San 
    		Francisco Forty Niners and Washington Redskins.
    
    		Baltimore was an expansion franchise in the early fifties
    		that had moved from Dallas.
    
    		Chicago Bears were an original NFL franchise formed in 1919	
    		as the Decatur Staleys
    
    		Chicago Cardinals were an original NFL franchise
    
    		Detroit was an original NFL franchise founded as the Ports-
    		mouth Spartans
    
    		Green Bay was an original NFL franchise
    
    		The Los Angeles Rams were founded as the Cleveland Rams and
    		moved to Los Angeles in 1946
    
    		The New York Giants weren't an original NFL franchise but 
    		were founded in 1925, at about the same time the Eagles and
    		Steelers were
    
    		The Washington Redskins were founded as the Boston Redskins
    		and moved to Washington in 1937
    
    		The Cleveland Browns and San Francisco Forty Niners were
    		charter members of the All American Football Conference and
    		were absorbed by the NFL in 1950 after the AAFC folded.
    
    How's that?
    
    John
    	

    
    The original Raiders' colors were puce and lavender, and the Pirate
    logo had braces on his teeth.  Someone decided that this was not the
    image they wished to portray, and thought that the black and silver
    with the eye patch was more suitable.  The rest, they say, is history,
    although there are still some big-city street gangs that still display
    the puce-lavender as their colors.
    
    Dickstah
    

    One more thing ...
    
    Tampa Bay was an AFC team in its first season and Seattle was in the
    NFC.  In that season, they played each team in its conference once and
    played each other once.  In 1977, they moved to their current divisions
    and did the same thing.  Those were the last 2 years of the 14 game
    schedule.  The divisions and conferences have been static since 1977
    and the 16-game schedule started in 1978.
    
    John

    >I reread my information about the Giants and George Young last night
    >and I was wrong - Pete Rozelle didn't step in unasked - the Maras asked
    >him to step in, because they realized they'd never get anywhere acting
    >on their own.
    
    I don't know the source of your information John, but that's not the
    way the story played out in New York, where it was in the papers every
    day.  Rozelle gave them an ultimatum to straighten out their
    differences, something they just could not do.  So he stepped in and
    they ended up hiring Young to run the team on his order.
    
    If the history says the Mara's asked, it was the fans/players etc. that
    made them ask.
    
    I've heard of nothing even close to this.  A strong NY team is a meal
    ticket for any league, and Rozelle is as sharp a businessman as any to
    run a league.  What he did was right, but it shouldn't go unnoticed.
    
    Dan

    
    Heard that the Pats canned Rod Rust today.
    
    Dickstah
    

John Hendry, you never fail to amaze me with your historical abilities.

I'm nominating you as the Official SPORTS Historian!


Thanks loads for the info.....

'Saw

    >I'm nominating you as the Official SPORTS Historian!
    
    I second the notion. 
    
    As far as the Raiders helmet thing goes, it could very well be as
    was suggested that either it's their practice helmets or that they're
    air-brushed. The only reference I had was the trading cards, which
    in retrospect, probably isn't the best thing to base the facks (tm)
    on.
    
    Homeboy

    I recall seeing some photos of the 1960 Raiders' QB, Cotton something
    or other, and he had the eyepatch on his helmet.
    
    Rich
    

    I still think they should have at least some "Crispus Attucks looking"
    Patriots on the helmets, but that could be another discussion.
    
    I think the wild card situation is a farce.  I don't mind the
    week off as much except for the big gap between weeks 10 and 15
    for some teams.  Make them all on consecutive weeks, I don't
    care about World Series and other commitments...
    
    -Walt

    I just had a bad thought. What if we have another Cinci-9'ers
    bowl?  Their getiing to be as common as Bronco blowouts.
    A little variety would be nice. How about a Philly-Oilers
    bowl?  
    
    BoB

    -1, as you must know by now the chances of a Philly-Oilers bowl
    is about as close as dec stock hittint $200.....This was a terrible
    weekend for football so far....  The Eagles didnt show up for the
    game, very surprised to see the score as close as it was 20-6, then
    KC looked as if they would upset the FIshes and let them score 2 td's
    in the 4rth to take the lead, than a holding call puts KC out of FG
    range (ANd Lowery still came Feet from making it).  Then today starts
    off with an absolute whipping of the Oilers at the hads of Cinncy, but
    cinncy does have to play the RAIDERS next week in LA.  Not to happy
    with this weekends outcome, Oh well Maybe NO will upset the beats
    tonight, although Washington will be at SF next week if Chicago wins
    today (that should be a good game), If NO upsets Chicago SF can start
    there 3rd stringers next weekend......Not looking forward to the Bowl
    yet have to see what happens next week.  (Raiders VS Washington)
    
    									MAB

    The AFL consisted of the East Division - Boston, Buffalo, New York and
    Houston with Miami being added in 1966; and the West Division - Denver,
    Dallas/Kansas City, Oakland and Los Angeles/San Diego, with Cincinnati
    being added in 1968.
    
    The NFL had no divisions until 1933.  From 1933 to 1936, the East
    Division consisted of New York, Brooklyn, Boston, Philadelphia and
    Pittsburgh while the West was the Bears, Cardinals, Detroit and Green
    Bay.  In 1937, the Cleveland Rams came into the West Division and the
    Redskins moved from Boston to Washington.  Cleveland was inactive in
    1943 and Philadelphia and Pittsburgh merged for the 1 year.  In 1944,
    Cleveland came back, Boston came into the East and Pittsburgh was
    merged with the Cardinals.  Brooklyn went out of business in 1945.  In
    1946, the Rams moved to Los Angeles.  In 1949, the Boston franchise
    became the New York Bulldogs.  In 1950, the AAFC folded and the league
    absorbed the Browns and Niners and a Baltimore franchise was added. 
    The structure was, East:  Cleveland, Giants, Philly, Pittsburgh,
    Cardinals and Washington; West:  Los Angeles, Bears, Detroit, Green
    Bay, San Francisco, New York Yanks (former Bulldogs) and Baltimore. 
    This Baltimore franchise went out of business in 1951.  In 1952, the
    Yanks moved to Dallas and went out of business.  In 1953, a new
    Baltimore franchise was formed in the West Division.  At this point,
    the NFL had a 12-team league and it stayed that way until 1960.
    
    In 1960, the Cardinals moved from Chicago to St Louis and the Dallas
    Cowboys came into the West Division.  In 1961, Minnesota was formed,
    moving into the Western Division and Dallas moved to the East.  This
    was now a 14-team league.  In 1966, Atlanta became an East Division
    Team and in 1967, New Orleans was formed.  The league became a 16 team,
    2 conference, 4 division league as follows:
    
    Western Conference
    	Coastal Division	LA, Baltimore, SF, Atlanta
    	Central Division	GB, Chi, Detroit, Minnesota
    Eastern Conference
    	Century Division	Cleveland, NY, Pit, St Louis
    	Capital Division	Dallas, Philly, Wash, New Orleans
    
    This was the alignment in 1967 and 1969.  In 1968, New Orleans and New
    York swapped divisions.
    
    John

    John, help me out.  I seem to recall a Texas team called the Colts, or
    .45's or something like that.
    
    Did Houston start as the Oilers, or were they called somethig else at
    the start?
    
    There are sooooo many pro sports teams, I've probably got it mixed up.
    But I have this feeling that there was another named Texas team, besides 
    the Texans and Oilers, in the old AFL.
    
    lEe

    Nope.  The Houston Astros started at the Colts 45s.
    
    John

    Okay, I guess that's it.  Got'em mixed up again.
    
    Thanks, John.
    
    lEe

John --

Wasn't there something special about Green Bay, in that when they
started (1922?) they were publically owned or something.

I may be way off, but I seem to remember something different about the
way they were owned....

'Saw

    re .82:
    
    >	I just had a bad thought. What if we have another Cinci-9'ers
    >	bowl?  
    
    What would be so bad about that?  The last Bengals-49ers Super Bowl was
    probably the best Super Bowl game ever.
    
    
    py

� Wasn't there something special about Green Bay, in that when they
� started (1922?) they were publically owned or something.
    
    If I'm not mistaken, they still are to some degree.   I believe you can
    purchase "shares" of the team on some sort of open market.  I don't
    know if it's simple stock transactions or something a bit more complex.
    
    They're managed by some sort of a "public" board of directors or some
    similar type of shareholders' committee.
    
    Bob Hunt

Speaking of Logos, etc.:

Over the holidays I was down doing some hunting around Rocky Ford Colo.

I was in this bar, and this Mexican dude comes in and starts talking to
some other guys. He was wearing a Raiders ball cap.

So I'm staring at it, trying to read what the words around the logo say.
He spots me and says `what are you looking at?'
I say `yore stoopid hat'.
He starts turning red in the face, and I started laughing. I said `Does
that say what I think it says?'  he says,  `What do you think it says?'

So I told him... he says `yep.. that's what it says.'
I was cracking up. Turns out he got it in San Jose. We became
buddies,and he's supposed to call me the next time he's going to San
Jose and pick me up a hat.

The hat is black with the Raiders logo: Pirate with eyepatch in silver
on a shield.
Around the logo in fancy script it says:

                       NO CHINGUES CON NOSOTROS

Mike JN

    Sriously Rollward!
    
    That definitely fits the "Raider Image"
    
    For those of you who are wondering, it means roughly "DON'T F%@$ WITH
    US!"
    
                                                                    

    
    Yo Mikey,
    
    	Just exactly what were you huntin' in that bar in Rocky
    	Ford?  ;^)
    
    Claybroon

    Re. Packers?
    
    If I remember correctly they were owned by a packing company, thus
    the name Packers, and they are now owned by the city of Green Bay.
    
    Carlos

RE: Rocky Ford

I started out hunting geese, but no luck so I changed prey.

I hadn't realized there was a college down there (Otero.. or  some such
thing).

The bar was called BB's

It was full of womens!

 I used to think it was because of the cantaloupes and such they grew
      down there.... but now I know the REAL reason they call it
                          `The Melon Capital'!

Mike JN

    The Packers are a publicly held corporation owned now in part by the
    city of Green Bay.
    
    John

I had a discussion concerning the divisional alignment in the
NFL yesterday, and we came up with a more geographical alignment
than currently in place.

What do you all think?

NFC East				AFC East
--------                                --------
New York 				Buffalo
Washington                              New England
Philadelphia                            Miami
Atlanta                                 Indianapolis
Tampa Bay                               New York

NFC Central				AFC Central
-----------				-----------
Chicago					Cincinnati
Detroit					Cleveland
Green Bay				Houston
New Orleans				Pittsburgh
Minnesota				Kansas City

NFC West				AFC West
--------				--------
San Francisco				Seattle
Los Angeles 				Los Angeles
Phoenix					San Diego
Dallas					Denver



Seems like it makes too much sense, eh?

'Saw

	That would be much better (except I'd put Pitt in east and Indy
	in the Central), but we'll have to wait for expansion to see what
	might be best at that point.  The NFL won't make any changes until
	then.

    I read a while back that the NFL was addressing that the conferences
    were "unbalanced". This makes a lot more sense than geography, since we
    ALL know that TV money rules. Basically, the AFC has smaller markets,
    so NBC gets smaller ratings, no matter what. There was talk of swapping
    teams, such as Buffalo and Philadelphia and Chcago and Kansas City. It
    may "even" things out, but it's not good for traditional rivalries.
    
    Tom

Now that Joe Montana has been named the NFL MVP for the second year in a
row, it begs the question:

	Is Joe Montana a better quarterback than Jerry Rice is a receiver?

I say he isn't.   Rice is the best receiver I have ever seen.

Who named Montana MVP? I thought Randall Cunningham was getting most of
the votes and All-Pro honors this year.

In any case, Rice is about as good at his position as you can be. I think
that relative to competition for "who's best at WR" there are very few
who dominate their position as he does. Maybe Bruce Smith, this year, on
defense. 

Montana may come close when he gets in the playoffs wherein he goes
transcendental and appears to be able to win even without Jerry.

TTom

>Who named Montana MVP? I thought Randall Cunningham was getting most of
>the votes and All-Pro honors this year.

The AP voted Montana MVP... Randall second and Warren Moon third.   It wasn't
even very close.   26 votes to 18 to 16   out of 80 total.

Rice caught 100 balls this year when no other guy even got 90.   He led in
yardage (1500+) and TD's as well (I think).

    
    Although I'm a fan of both, I'd say Montana gets the nod.  He was great
    before Rice burst on the scene, and did it then with very average
    receivers: an aging Freddie Soloman, Mike Wilson and Dwight Clark.  It
    will be interesting to see what happens to Jerry when Joe is gone.  I
    think Montana was instrumental in Rice getting where he is so quickly. 
    From his rookie season on he has been something.
    
    re .102
    
    Montana was named the starter in the Pro Bowl AND the MVP.  Cunningham
    was 2nd in both.
    
    
    Bruce

Two points::::::::

One -  I think Frank has a good idea... but doesn't take it far enough:
There's no reason why we can't realign the teams without regard to
Conference. In other words, just because somebody is AFC now, doesn't
mean that they would necessarily stay AFC under a new realignment.

Two -  Started reading that book Mr T was talkng about awhile back -
Foucalt's Pendulum - HAH!
Although I wasn't drunk, I had had a few shooters.
I read the first page and said `What?!?'
Then I read it again, and started laughing.
Then I put it down and went to sleep.
I think it is one of those books that you read sober, and don't try to
`skim'.

Mike JN

    Re: Raiders Helmet  
    
    I went and looked through a book I have called "The Other League, the
    Story of the AFL" and every Raider helmet I saw had "Patch" on it.  
    
    The Jets, Broncos and Chiefs, however, were different.  The Broncos had
    the bucking Bronco on it, the Chiefs had the outline of the state of
    Texas on it as they were then the Dallas Texans, and the Jets didn't
    have the green football from the Joe Namath years, but rather a green 
    jet on a white helmet.  Houston, also, was a dark helmet with a white
    oil rig on it.  
    
    That's what I found, hope this helps.
    
    Glenn

    SFQBNFLMVP
    
    Could someone please relay the scores of the 4 games played last
    weekend?
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

Washington 20, Philadelphia 6
Miami 17, Kansas City 16
Cincinnati 41, Houston 14
Chicago 16, New Orleans 6

TTom

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From: [email protected] (JOE CIALINI, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football,clari.sports.top
Subject: Eagles won't re-hire Ryan
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	PHILADELPHIA (UPI) -- Buddy Ryan, who led the Philadelphia Eagles to
three consecutive playoff berths but failed to win a post-season game,
will not return to the team next season.
	Eagles owner Norman Braman said Tuesday that Ryan, 56, will not be
offered a new contract when his current agreement expires later this
month.
	``This obviously is not an easy decision to make,'' Braman said in a
statement. ``Buddy Ryan has done a good job with this football team. I
feel, however, that in order for the Philadelphia Eagles to ascend to
the next plateau, a change in coaching is necessary.''
	No other details were immediately available but Braman scheduled a
news conference for 4 p.m. Tuesday to discuss his decision.
	Ryan posted a 43-35-1 record in his five seasons with the Eagles,
including 31 victories in the last three seasons, the fourth-best mark
in the NFL.
	Philadelphia was also one of only four teams to make the playoffs in
each of the last three seasons but it also lost in its first game on
each occasion.
	When he was hired in 1986, Ryan said he had a five-year plan to get
the Eagles to the Super Bowl but failed to meet his own timetable.
	At a news conference earlier this week, Ryan said Braman had no
choice but to give him a new contract.
	``All he has to do is look at the team I took over, the job I've done
here and the won-loss record,'' he said. ``It all adds up on the plus
side. I made progress in every area in the last five years.''
	Ryan could not immediately be reached for comment after Braman's
decision was announced.
	But Ryan's failure to win a playoff game and his own personality
apparently combined to cause his ouster.
	Braman made little secret of his distaste for Ryan's personal bluster
and his insistence that he alone was responsible for any success enjoyed
by the Eagles.
	The owner was also apparently outraged by Ryan's decision to briefly
bench starting quarterback Randall Cunningham in Saturday's 20-6 loss to
the Washington Redskins.
	Ryan said he was trying to spark the Eagles by sending in Jim McMahon
to replace Cunningham but Braman said the coach only ``embarrassed''
Cunningham on national television.
	After the 1988 season, Ryan indicated he wanted Braman to renew his
contract before its final year was completed but the owner refused.
	The Eagles' players said they wanted Ryan to return next season but
they realized a change might be made.
	``We have a lot of loyalty to Buddy but we'd adjust,'' Cunningham
said before Braman's decision was announced. ``We'd have to adjust.''

Does anyone know the QB status for Kelly and for Simms?

Are they the only ones injured right now? ( I know Harbaugh is out for
good )

Mike JN

re: .110

Kelly is supposedly ready and preparing for Miami (so says AP).

Simms is out for sure this week and maybe for the rest of the year. This
weekend (he was a "guest" commentator for CBS, I believe) he was very
guarded in his opinions on whether or not he would see action again this
year and said things like the Giants are prepared and confident to be
playing with Hostetler as QB.

TTom

    
      Isn't Simms on IR? If so, he can't come back until the NFC
    championship game.
    
    Bull~
    

    The Eagles hired offensive coordinator Rich Kotite as the new Eagles
    head coach. I personally feel the Eagles made a mistake not renewing
    Ryan's contract, but if they did have to get rid of him, it was a good
    move to hire from within. Immediate decision was made to retain Jeff
    Fischer as the defensive coordinator. Decesions on other coachs are to
    be made in the next two weeks.
    
    Dennis
    

    Any chance that Ryan will be considered for the Cleveland and/or Tampa
    Bay coaching jobs?
    
    
    py

    ...or how about Ryan as the defensive coordinator for the Pats?

I wouldn't look for Buddy to play second fiddle ever again. 

TTom

Ryan says he won't be an assistant. He wants to be a head coach. I think he's
on his way to Tampa myself. Culverhouse has some good young hitters on D who
lack direction. Some offense, I'd say Buddy be a good fit. 

Keith Jackson was fit to be tied. Demanding a trade already and promising
if he isn't traded to make so much trouble and be such a distraction that
they'll have to trade him. Of course $$$$$ talks and given the BS Jackson
has been going through over his contract it maybe a ploy....

mike

    
    I can't imagine Buddy and Model working together.  Walsh is supposed to
    still be interested in the TB job, and he and Culverhouse are old
    friends.  My guess is that if Walsh doesn't wanrt the job, Buddy might
    get it.
    
    Bruce

    I hope Buddy gets it, that would be a good reason to hype two more
    games a season on the Bears calander!
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Regarding the NFL draft...
    
    I know that the Broncos won the 4th pick over the Rams by a coin toss,
    but does anyone know the results of the coin toss between the Chargers
    and Packers for 9th pick?
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    Walsh wants 10% ownership to go to Tampa!  He's a much better
    choice than Buddy.
    
    Even if Buddy consented to be an assistant somewhere I doubt there's a
    head coach who would want to work with him now.  On a rebuilding team
    like the Pats, the dissension he's sure to create would be detrimental.
    
    Dan

    re .67
    
    Before 1982 or so, Topps football cards always had the helmet logos
    airbrushed. From what I understand, they didn't have a formal agreement
    with the NFLPA or the NFL, so if a player was shown on a card with a
    identifiable team logo, the NFL could sue Topps.
    
    Why do I know this ? Been collecting football cards since 1975, and I
    used to be fascinated by that. How they could do the Rams used to blow
    my mind .... :-)

    My favorites were the hoops cards that had their players wear their
    jerseys backwards?

Newsgroups: clari.sports.football
Subject: Burtnett named offensive coordinator
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 91 11:33:00 EST
 
	INDIANAPOLIS (UPI) -- The Indianapolis Colts named Leon Burtnett their
new offensive coordinator Friday, giving the team's former running back
coach the task of improving the NFL's second-worst attack.
	Burtnett replaces Larry Kennan, fired earlier this week along with
offensive line coach Dante Scarnecchia. Burtnett is a former coach at
Purdue, where he guided Colts quarterback Jeff George as a college
freshman. Burtnett has also worked with running back Eric Dickerson the
past three years.
	Jim Irsay, the team's general manager, said Thursday linebacker Fredd
Young had failed his post-season physical and might retire. A damaged
hip kept Young out of five of the season's final six games. The Colts
traded two first-round draft picks to Seattle in 1988 for Young.

    
    What about Ryan as defensive coach for the RAMS? Robinson canned six of
    seven coaches this week! That would be a great help to the Rams seeing
    that their defense was non-existant this year!
    
    CS

    re .126:
    
    Again, I very much doubt that Ryan would accept anything short of a
    head coaching position.
    
    
    py

    Ryan won't be a coach on the Rams, but Jeff Fisher, the Eagles
    defensive coordinator might be. He is in So. CA today talking to John
    Robinson about the job. Fisher is a CA native who played for Robinson
    in college, and Fisher has said he would like to someday go home and
    coach. If the Eagles lose him, it would be a big step backwards.
    
    Dennis
    

    I think I heard on the radio the other day that Warren Moon was named
    Offensive Player of the Year - that may have been just for the AFC and
    not for the whole NFL, however.

    The 49'ers and the Giants - My two favorite teams!
    
    lEe

Away's back 
Glenn; 

DENVER won the coin flip for the 4th pick in the Draft 

Jeff

    
    Heard some talk and read some print about the possibility of postponing
    the Super Bowl due to the "crisis."  Beefed up security at the site is
    an absolute must (anybody read the book "Black Sunday" which came out a
    while ago?)  Had to do with terrorists blowing up the stadium in order
    to get a little attention.
    
    From what I gather, the *real* concern is the possibility that the game
    may be interrupted by news briefs, updates, etc. (The Mideast Ten
    Second Ticker??), and that some of the advertising dough ($800,000 for
    a 30-second spot) would have to be refunded.  Oh, brother.
    
    Dickstah
    

Not wanting to digress, there was a cartoon in this morning's 
Hartford Courant....

	It showed two soldiers lying in the sand with their guns.
	One says to the other "I hope they DON'T cancel the Super
	Bowl....it would be nice to know that SOMETHING is NORMAL
	in the world!"


I hope they have it, if just for that reason.

'Saw

    The NFL has had precisely *ONE* truly horrible publicity event in the
    last 30 years and that was Pete Rozelle's decision to play the regular
    schedule of games on the Sunday afternoon following President Kennedy's
    assassination in Dallas in 1963.
    
    Any talk of postponing this year's Super Bowl if war breaks out is most
    likely a desire to avoid that sort of perceived insensitivity again.
    
    Bob Hunt

    	Unless we're all wallowing in radiation old Mr. Tagliabue will
    play the game.  Like Bob said, he just wants to make it look like
    he cares.
    
    				/Don

    
    And play they should... there's no good reason that the country should
    come to a complete stop until this war's decided.  Most of us came into
    work, didn't we?
    
    The Kennedy decision was a different situation.  The entire country
    went into mourning for at least a few days, but the NFL didn't.  It
    made sense to cancel the games and push them back a week.  Not that
    the Super Bowl is of importance compared to what we're engaged in in
    the Mideast, but should the NFL cancel it entirely or push it back
    until June out of respect for our armed services, even as the rest of 
    us continue to go on?
    
    glenn
    

    I would think even the President himself would say to play the super
    bowl, we have to go on with life here and that should enclude
    entertainment.....
    								Mike

    The only reason I've read for the immediate cancellation/postponement
    of the NFL games, other than public safety, is the 7X24 coverage being
    given to the war by the networks.
    
    John

    In NFL news, Jim Tunney has announced his retirement as a NFL official,
    after this season, ending a 31-year career.  He was hired in 1960, at
    the age of 30, making him the youngest NFL official ever.  He became a
    referee in 1967, at age 37, making him the youngest referee ever.  He
    is also the only man to be the referee in two consecutive Super Bowls,
    having Super Bowl XI in Pasadena between Oakland and Minnesota, and XII
    in New Orleans between Dallas and Denver.
    
    He hasn't had a playoff game yet this year and I hope it's because he
    has either a conference championship game or (even better) the Super
    Bowl to crown a long and illustrious career.
    
    John

    I don't know about the "What if I were president?" topic, but if I
    were Paul Tagliabue, here's what I would do...
    
    1) Play the Superbowl.
    2) Let the teams and media in (restricted), but no fans...
    3) Buy some HUGE speakers or tap into the PA system and have
       some "specially chosen" fans or some PR guys from each team
       have a control panel to simulate the crowd for each team.
       (Cheers, boos, defense, Buffalo's version of "Shout" if they get
       there, etc...) Pump the audio into the stadium...
       This can simulate the fans being there for the players to some
       degree, but takes care of things like beer bottles, too loud a crowd
       and makes it safer and easier to keep secure.
    4) Have the network broadcast from some sites in each home cities and
       dub in crowd shots from past home games of each team, maybe some
       banners, so it's not quite as bad to see an empty stadium.
    
    That way everyone plays, no chance of terrorists bombing 80,000 people,
    the viewing audience has a simulation that fans are there, the players
    have a sense that people are cheering them on... Drastic, and maybe
    not the same or practical, but hey, if I'm in charge, I'd say play it
    and give people a chance to get away from what's at hand.  Sort of like
    the World Series in the Bay Area.
    
    -Walt

    Yeah, but a ring and a chamiopnship should be enough motivation for the
    players...
    
    And it's better than no Super Bowl...

    I don't remember seeing this anywhere in here so if I missed it and
    this is a repeat, tough.  (8^)
    
    George Allen, former Washington Redskins head coach, CFL coach, and
    most recently the coach of Long Beach State, passed away ~2 weeks ago.
    
    The first I saw of this was a couple of days ago when I was looking
    thru an issue of Sports Illustrated(can't remember the date).  I had
    heard nothing of his death on the news or in here.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    -2-5...You forgot one thing, theyll have to put plain clothed police
    officers in the END ZONED seats for Extra Points and Field Goal's, or
    they could use Cardboard cutouts with mechanical arms to wave ...

    	Sure Walt.  I could just see some sap who paid $1,000.00 for
    his ticket getting refunded the face value ($75.00?).

    I agree JaKe.  Good-bye George Allen.  You were good for football and
    brought alot to every team you coached.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    Well, it's probably better to take the financial hit than to explain
    to their relatives what happened of something dramatic (God forbid)
    actually happened.
    
    George Allen died New Year's eve day.  I was in DC at the time, so
    obviously it made the news there.  Too bad...

What would you do if a pro football player dropped by your house and
sat around watching football on your tv?

I had Ed Reynolds of the Patriots sitting on my couch yesterday watching
the Bills-Raiders game.  

The setup:  I bought my house in Columbia, SC from a former pro football
	    player named Quentin Walker {Cards,Bucs-injured after three
	    years}.   He went to UVa with Ed Reynolds and they're best
	    buddies.   Back in the summer, Quentin told me that if Ed
	    ever came down, he'd bring him over to the house.  "Yeah,
	    right" is what I thought.   Apparently, besides being a
	    hell of a nice guy, Quentin also is a man of his word.

So we watched the second quarter of the game.. plus Ed was VERY interested
in the Mideast situation because he's in the reserves.  He was amazingly
candid and open about the Pats last year and the future.  Likes McPherson
a lot... mentioned Coury and Collier as being good choices.  Said the
Pats were stupid if they draft Klingler because Hodson is a tough QB who
could become a good one.   He's a Rocket booster {hey, I just made that
up!}   Naturally, I asked him if he knew John Hendry and he said he did.

I'm not really a big football fan, but that was a real special afternoon.

 � Apparently, besides being a hell of a nice guy, Quentin also is a man of
 � his word.
 
 Naturally, considering his alma matre.
 
 Sorry, couldn't resist ...
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Sounds like a fun afternoon.

    Man Ross, you live in the same state as Ketch and have_a former NFL player
    over who graduated from his alma mater, and ya don't even invite him
    over for a brew?!
    
    Nice guy you ain't, bub.
    
    ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    My kids are enjoying their day off today, due to the tribute to MLK.
    My oldest has only been in school 2 years, and he's had it off both
    years.
    
    Pretty good for a state that lost a Super Bowl because of an unpaid MLK
    day.
    
    Mike

    I never really understood that...I live in massachusetts and we dont
    get a paid MLK day...Does that mean this is a prejudice state or just
    that we could never host a superbowl...Of course could you imaging a
    Superbowl in Foxboro...Pretty scary thought.  Has every superbowl been
    played in a state that has a paid MLK day.  Ive been confuse about this
    since I first saw the news on this issue ?????
    								Mike

    Massachusetts does have a paid MLK day for its state employees, then
    again, they get days off at virtually any excuse.  MLK day is also the
    site choice holiday for our plant in Springfield and for the plant in
    Roxbury.  It's not a mandatory holiday in this state by any means
    
    Every state in the country has a paid MLK holiday probably similar to
    ours except Arizona, Montana and New Hampshire.  Each state that has
    hosted the Super Bowl now has a MLK day but I don't know whether they
    did at the time.  I know some Super Bowls were played while he was
    still alive.  The states that have had a Super Bowl are California,
    Texas, Louisiana, Florida and Michigan.  Michigan and Texas both had
    their only Super Bowls before the holiday existed.
    
    John

    Thanks for the insight, I guess I figured that MLK should be a
    mandatory holiday.  Dont like the idea of comparing the MLK holiday
    to some of the other holidays that state workers get, like ah groundhog
    day....Thanks for the info.
    								Mike

    A friend of mine wrote a letter to the editor of the Worcester T&G.  In
    it he questioned the motives of an organization that raised such a fuss
    in Arizona over the MLK holiday, yet boasts a team called the
    "Redskins".

>    Every state in the country has a paid MLK holiday probably similar to
>    ours except Arizona, Montana and New Hampshire.  Each state that has
    
    Are sure about this?  I thought only 50% of the states had a paid
    holiday.
    
    Mike

    
    Am I the first to ever contradict John Hendry?
    
    Few people realize that AZ and LA have _exactly_ the same policy on the
    MLK holiday.  Both celebrate it on a Sunday.  LA has hosted more SB's
    than any other state.  AZ's legislature was stupid to put the idea of a
    paid holiday up to a vote of the people, where it was lost.  If we had
    a state gov't with guts and a do the right thing attitude, they'd just
    enact legislation themselves, and leave it at that.  Of course if they
    did that, they'd get run out of office by all the Meachamites and the
    other bigots.
    
    Bruce 

    >Am I the first to ever contradict John Hendry?
    
    No.  I was.
    
    MrT

    I guessed wrong on the holidays too.  I truly didn't know the situation
    on the holidays nationwide, nor when the holiday was enacted.
    
    I'm not omniscient and I'm certainly not perfect.
    
    John

>>    I'm not omniscient and I'm certainly not perfect.
>>    
>>    John

Yeah, but you're a hell of a lot closer than most of the riff-raff in here.

j.

    Lost amid the Super Bowl hoopla was the announcement of this year's
    Hall of Fame inductees.  John Hannah became the first New England
    Patriot to be elected to the Hall.  Earl Campbell, Tex Schramm, and
    someone elected by the veteran's committee will join him.  Campbell and
    Hannah were elected in their first year of eligibility.
    
    Uncle Al Davis did not make it in this year.

    Stan Jones was elected by the Veterans Committee.  Jones is supposed to
    be hired as the Patriots Defensive Line coach this week.
    
    John

    OK, I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, but I am damnit! 
    What exactly did Earl Campbell do besides run people over that got him
    elected in his first year?  He was an impact player, but I don't
    remember him being great for that long.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    > What exactly did Earl Campbell do besides run people over that got him
    > elected in his first year?  He was an impact player, but I don't
    > remember him being great for that long.
    
    He didn't last that long because the Oilers ran him into the ground,
    but when he was young and healthy he was one of the greatest.  I
    probably enjoyed watching Campbell run more than any one else I've ever
    seen (I'm too young for Jimmy Brown).  I prefer a guy like Campbell who 
    was a tremendous player when he had it, literally carrying his team, to 
    some of the guys who were inferior to Campbell but who lasted a long 
    time and piled up the stats.
    
    Campbell's kind of like Gale Sayers, who you won't find any longer in
    any of the leader categories, but who you'll never forget if you ever
    saw him play...
    
    glenn
    

    Red Grange died this A.M. at the age of 83.

    Campbell is 10th all-time in the rushing list (when he retired he was
    higher up the list).  He gained over 10,000 yards in 9 years.  Not too
    shabby.  I'll NEVER forget his Monday night performance vs. the
    Dolphins his rookie year.
    
    JD

>             I'll NEVER forget his Monday night performance vs. the 
>   Dolphins his rookie year.
    
    	Or the TD run he scored against Jack Tatum(same year I think).
    Tatum hit him as hard as I've seen him hit anyone and he still scored,
    hurt and all.
    
    	Definetely a HOF'er.
    
    						 glen j.
    

    
    ...or Donnie Shell more or less ending his career with one hit.
    

I'm not exactly a dwarf, and I still have a problem visualizing someone
(Campbell) who has thighs bigger around that my waist.

Mike JN

�         <<< Note 5.173 by STAR::YANKOWSKAS "he shoots, he scores!" >>>
�                     -< so who made the All-Madden team? >-

All I heard was that he picked Joe Montana as his quarterback, so I
figure Madden has copped out. I thought the Madden team was supposed to
be the roughest, toughest, most hard-nosed football players at each
position. Montana is good, but he doesn't fit that definition in my
book. I think I'd of picked Boomer, or Simms, or Everett, or George.....
Even Elway... ya know.... QB's that I've seen run with the ball and put
their shoulders down and try to nail somebody... not dance out of
bounds, or every time do the chicken slide into first base.

Mike JN
    

    With the Jints' Supe 25 win over Buffalo, the NFC is now ahead of the
    AFC for the first time since the AFL-NFL merger.   NFC teams now have
    13 wins to the AFC's 12 victories.
    
    The last time the NFC was ahead was after Supe 3 and the AFL Jets' win
    over the NFL Colts.  This was before the merger and following the NFL
    Packers' wins in the first two contests.   Supe 4 tied it all up when
    the AFL Chiefs beat the NFL Vikings.  Two years later it was still tied
    after Dallas beat Miami in Supe 6 but the AFC then won 5 straight and 8
    out of 9 before the NFC started reversing the trend with the Niners'
    win in Supe 16.
    
    The NFC has won 7 straight and 9 of the last 10 to pull ahead.
    
    NFC						AFC
    ---						---
    Green Bay		2-0			New York	1-0
    Dallas		2-3			Kansas City	1-1
    San Francisco	4-0			Miami		2-3
    Washington		2-2			Pittsburgh	4-0
    Chicago		1-0			Oakland		3-1
    New York		2-0			Denver		0-4
    Minnesota		0-4			Cincinnati	0-2
    Philadelphia	0-1			New England	0-1
    Los Angeles		0-1			Baltimore	1-0
    Baltimore		0-1			Buffalo		0-1
    			===					===
    		      13-12				      12-13
    
    Note:  Baltimore lost Supe 3 while in the NFL but won Supe 5 for the
    AFC.
    
    What's really interesting is the multiple winners and losers.  Very few
    teams make it just once and that's it.   The Bears, Rams, Eagles, Jets,
    Patriots, and Bills have the solo appearances.  Most of the teams on
    the list have played the game more than once.  Miami and Dallas have 5
    apiece.
    
    There might be parity in the regular season but not in the playoffs.
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    
    
    

    Someone told me that Madden chose Merrill Hoge as his running back
    because he not only likes the way he runs over people, but also because
    he has a nose like that of an All-Madden Team member.
    
    FWIW.
    
    	--dan'l

My brother taped the show for me but I haven't seen it yet.

I hear he had an "Industrial Strength" section, for guys whose guts
push out the front of their jersey.

That's why *I* made the All-Madden Industrial Strength Rugby Squad.....8^)

'Saw

    John Madden didn't pick Montana because of his running skills but for
    his abilities as a passer.  
    
    Now I'm no Montana fan, but that doesn't change the fact that he may be
    one of the best QBs ever in the NFL.  Madden cited his ability to know
    where any of his receivers are in their pass route at any given time.
    
    Of course, eyes in the back of your head would be nice, so you could
    see guys like Mr. Marshall about to bounce your brains around inside
    your skull!
    
    Zeik.

    
    
>Madden cited his ability to know
>    where any of his receivers are in their pass route at any given time.
    
    I read that Fouts did a demonstration once where he was blindfolded
    and had a receiver (Joiner?) run patterns.  Hit him every time.
    When asked how he did it, he said, "Well, I know that Charlie is
    kinda slow."
    
    
    C
    

    The Chicago Bears have informed Mike Tomzak that he will be put on the 
    upcoming plan B listings.  Who do you think would be interested?
    
    	--dan'l

    	Well, the Patriots could do worse.
    
    	If Grogan retires, the Pats can tell Wilson to walk and go
    	get someone who is worth having.
    
    	Scott

    Roger Craig, Matt Millen and Ronnie Lott are reportedly being put on
    the list by the 49ers. I know Eddie has a lot of money but isn't he
    taking a big chance with Lott????
    
                        Kenn

    Lott maybe getting old and lost a step but hes the sole of that defense.
    It would be a big mistake to leave him unprotected.


Chuck

    San Fran is known for putting players on Plan B, and telling them that
    they will match anyone else's offer. Case in point is TE Brent Jones.
    The Niners put him on Plan B, and pretty much told him that they would
    pay him well if he resisted another team's offer. 
    
    Sure enough, he came back to SF, got a nice contract, started the
    entire year at TE, and had a great season.
    
    Also remember that the Giants have kept OJ Anderson on their
    unprotected list for the last 3-4 years.
    
    So don't read too much into the NIners leaving Lott unprotected. My
    guess is that DeBartolo, Seifert, and Lott all sat down together and
    did this so that their good young talent stays protected.
    
    It would take a meag-offer, and complete brain-lock by the NIner front
    office (something they are not known for) to lose Lott. I can't see it
    happening.
    
    DrM
    
    p.s. The Niners probaly lose fewer players to Plan B than any team in
    the NFL.

    Chuck:
    
    Are you saying Lott is thebottom of the shoe of the Niners defense, or
    the filleted fish of the Niners defense???(sole - soul).
    
    
    Doc,
    
    PuttingLott on Plan B would be analagous to the Giants putting LT on
    Plan B, or the Bears Singletary - it's a crappy, no-class move, by a
    no-class owner.
    
    JD

�    PuttingLott on Plan B would be analagous to the Giants putting LT on
�    Plan B, or the Bears Singletary - it's a crappy, no-class move, by a
�    no-class owner.
    
    Not if that owner took Lott aside and told him that they are trying to
    protect some young stud and Lott would be well taken care of.

    
    re: .187
    
    Isn't that against the league rules to pre-set a deal for someone
    before placing them on Plan B?  If so, why doesn't the league step
    in and start fining the violators (specifically SF!)

    Repeat after me, everyone all together now ...
    
    --- The NFL is a collection of cold-hearted, semi-ruthless business
    sharks.
    
    The sentimentalists keep forgetting that.
    
    Putting Ronnie Lott on Plan B is a *perfect* business decision.  He had
    some injury problems this past year and may, repeat *may*, be on the
    verge of losing half a step in the coming year.   Meanwhile there's a
    fresh crop of defensive secondary players to reap.
    
    Don't forget, also, that most of the players in the league would *LOVE*
    to be on the Plan B list.  Plan B'ers have made a *TON* of money in the
    the 2 or 3 years the plan's been in place.
    
    To me, a bigger surprise than Lott is the number of quality place
    kickers available.   Norwood, Breech, Lansford, Murray, and perhaps
    some more.    Teams with weak kickers could easily take a chance with
    one of these guys.
    
    Speaking of Lott, did anyone see the hit he laid on Ferrel Edmunds in
    the Pro Bowl yesterday ???   Ouch.   And then they waved off the fumble
    his hit caused, too.
    
    Bob Hunt

    ALthought the AFC won this game it was more or less handed to them on
    a silver platter by the refs...I cannot believe they reviewed that call
    and didnt reverse it...Lott not only placed a hell of a hit he then got
    his hand on the ball and got it lose...He had no control on that ball
    when he hit the ground....as if that wasnt enough anyone pay close
    attention to the TD pass at the end to give the AFC the victory..The
    afc team should say thankyou for the extra $5,000 apiece the refs gave
    them last night......Not a bad game, other then the last drive...
    									MaB

    Well that was one fun ProBowl.  I enjoyed the hell out of that game. 
    Besides Anthony Miller looked good.  That attempted onside kick was a
    stroke of genius.  I loved it.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    Paul, it might be illegal but it would be pretty hard to prove it had
    occured unless Lott blew the whistle himself.
    
    And like Bob H. said, don't feel too sorry for those left unprotected. 
    This is a type of free agency and as such can serve to substantially
    increase the earnings of those left unprotected.

    re Paul G,
    
    Everybody is doing it Paul, so if DEBartolo gets it, so will Modell.
    
    Furthermore, sometimes it backfires .... 
    
    Last year Max Montoya was left on Plan B with the understanding  that
    he would be signed by the Bengals.
    
    Then Al Davis made him a huge offer- so big that Montoya had to sign
    with the Raiders. Bengals GM Mike Brown is still seething over that
    one.
    
    

  
 >   Then Al Davis made him a huge offer- so big that Montoya had to sign
 >   with the Raiders. Bengals GM Mike Brown is still seething over that
 >   one.
 

Had to sign ? was there a gun pointing at his Head? How about chose to sign with
the faiders?


re: tampering with plan B free agents...everybody does it. the league knows 
about it and chooses to do nothing about it. Plan B is/was just a ruse to deal
with court cases involving free agency and the NFLPA bargained away true free
agency for this scam.

The players don't care. It gives marginal players decent to excellent money
and makes non-B players happy because they think the team values them because
they were "protected".

Metz

   
   

    Question About the ON SIDE KICK in the Pro Bowl....
    
    If they kick it 10 yrds and the kicking team gets to the ball before
    the recieving team picks it up has the ball and runs out of bounds is
    it there ball ?????? I thought on an onside kick it had to be touched
    by a player bafore you could recover it....Is it touched or goes 10
    yrds ??? Im a little confused.  Thanks in advance...???...???
    								MaB

    � I thought on an onside kick it had to be touched by a player bafore
    � you could recover it....Is it touched or goes 10 yrds ??? 
    
    Nope, all the ball has to do is go 10 yards and then it's anyone's
    ball.   Just ask the Steeler's Barry Foster.  Earlier this past season,
    he single-handedly allowed the Niners to kick the longest "onsides"
    kick in NFL history when he had a brain cramp and let the kickoff land
    untouched on the 5-yard line.
    
    If you think about it, you could have answered your own question ...
    
    Why have a must-go-10-yards rule if an opponent has to touch the ball
    first ???
    
    The onsides kick play in yesterday's Pro Bowl was spectacular.  Too bad
    Miller was offsides.
    
    Bob Hunt

>    Question About the ON SIDE KICK in the Pro Bowl....
    
>    If they kick it 10 yrds and the kicking team gets to the ball before
>    the recieving team picks it up has the ball and runs out of bounds is
>    it there ball ?????? I thought on an onside kick it had to be touched
>    by a player bafore you could recover it....Is it touched or goes 10
>    yrds ??? Im a little confused.  Thanks in advance...???...???

	If the ball goes less than 10 yards and is touched FIRST by the kicking
team, it's a penalty on the kicking team - either re-kick with a penalty or
the receiving team keeps the ball where they recovered(IF they recover it).

	If the ball goes 10 yards or further - it's a free ball! Whoever gets it
gets it. If the ball goes out of bounds with noone gaining possession, but the 
ball is touched, then the receiving team gets the ball. If the ball goes out of
bounds untouched, it's a penalty on the kicking team, and the receiving team
has the option of making the kicking team rekick from 5 yards further back,
or getting the ball at their own 35.

	The kicking team can only recover the ball, not advance it. The 
receiving team can advance the ball, as with any kick return. If the ball is 
kicked in the air, the receiving team may call for a fair catch.

	Hope this helps,

	Jim M

Speaking of brain cramp, in 1985 (I think) Phil McConkey scored a TD
on a kickoff to Los Angeles.

The LA return man let the ball roll into the end zone, and ran away,
leaving it unattended.  Conks dropped on the ball, and 6 pts for NY....

'Saw

    One other spin on the on-sides kick rule.
    
    If the receiving team touches the ball before it goes ten yards, the
    kicking team can recover it at any point, even if it does not go ten
    yards.
    
    Bob-who-fumbled-a-received-onsides-kick-in-high-school

    
    >	The kicking team can only recover the ball, not advance it. The 
    
    Is this true?  Earlier this year, some dweeb announcer was lamenting
    the fact that if a guy on the kicking team hadn't bobbled the onsides 
    kick and had it go out of bounds, he had clear sailing to the end zone.
    (It was at the end of the Eagles-Cardinals game late in the season.)
    Then again, I should probably know better than to trust an ex-jock
    broadcaster, because they know less about the rules than most fans...
    
    glenn
    

      On the Lott thing,  do you guys really think Lott would leave this
    team?  This 9'r team could end up challenging for next years SB.  He
    has what 3-4 rings on his hands?
    
      Would you leave a team that overpays and treats their players like
    their unbeatable?  Grant it, this seems to work for moral....
    
    
    
    	T-bone

    Mark Bravo was not protected by the Giants....
    
    REK

    What about the colts plan"b" anybody heard anything.
                                    mike

    Mike Hunt?  Nah, never mind... welcome....

    RE: .186
    
    Just because a player is put on the plan B doesn't mean that the team
    is discarding him and doesn't want him.  People have it all wrong.  A
    player can be put on plan B if the management is pretty certain a) no
    one will want him or b) he won't sign anywhere else.  A case in point
    was Brent Jones last year.  The 49'ers knew they wanted Jones and
    needed him badly, but were pretty certain no one would take him and
    that he wouldn't sign with any other team since his roots were in the
    Bay Area and he played football at Santa Clara.  Lott falls into
    category b).  Lott and DeBartola are good personal friends.  Eddie D.
    gave Lott a GREAT three year contract injuries and all.  Not many teams
    can match it, especially since his knee's injury this year.  Bottom
    line is that Lott will stay because his roots are now in the red & gold
    of the 49'ers and above all he knows he's playing in the best
    organization in football.  Why go elsewhere and be treated lesser and
    be unhappy??
    
    -Dave-

The Bronco's are going to look hard at both Roger Craig and Mark Bavaro. 

They have very deep pockets some say deep enough to compete with DeBartalo. 

Expect to see some big plan B players making some moves. 

Bavaro predicts that he'll retire quietly next fall. He says he'll be at the
Giants camp but doesn't expect his knees to pass the physical. Too bad, he's
the best TE in the game and a class act all around.


Metz

Re: on side kicks

One rule change I'd like to see:

When the kicking team gets called for a penalty, and must re-kick, I'd
like to see them make it the ten yards PLUS the penalty before they can
recover the kick. The way it is now, if the kicking team is trying for
the on-side, a penalty isn't really a penalty, it just gives them
another chance.

Mike  JN

    This is probably a naive question from an ignorant foreigner. But can
    anyone tell me why this game is called "FOOTball"? Anytime I've seen it
    on tv, it has struck me that the only thing the participants do with
    their feet is stand on them, or try to. They don't even seem to use
    them to trip or maim their opponents. Indeed, when a situation arises
    that calls for somebody to actually kick the ball, a specialist expert
    is summoned onto the field. Don't the rest of them know how to kick?
    
    Perhaps in the distant past the rules or tactics were different and
    more kicking of the ball was involved, hence they called it "football".

Okay, I'm going to take a shot at this...

Back in the way old days, there was what Americans call Soccer.  That
was called Association Football, and then there was Rugby, which was
called Rugby Football.  (In fact, the term soccer was coined out of
an Oxford-ism which added "er" to things, thus asSOCiation football
became SOCcer, and RUGby football became RUGger).

Rugby football probably had a lot of fly hacking in the early days,
hence it was still called football.  Soccer is called football for
obvious reasons.

Over time, rugby evolved into Football, and the football tag stuck
with the fledgling sport....

hth,
'Saw

NO!

Back in the days of yore (yore is an old Middle English word meaning 
`The stable needs shoveling') there once was a huge altercation over a
stolen pig.

It was resolved by having the two claimants, plus their relatives,
engage in a contest. 

What with one thing and another, the definition of `relatives' got
stretched a bit, and the result was almost every person from the two
villages became involved. 

The object was to `win' by getting possession of the pig and carrying it
to your village. It was pretty rough. (They were allowed to use staves,
but no weapons).

As it turned out, there wasn't much left of the pig (just a couple of
feet) and both sides claimed victory. However, everyone had such a great
time it became a tradition. 

They started out just using a pig, but then used a pigskin `ball'
stuffed to resemble a pig's foot. Over the years they experimented with
different shapes: heads, tails (a curly ball), various sized genitalia,
etc. but the name `Foot' ball stuck.

And now you know
Mike JN

                                 P.S.

                            I made that up

                             Not bad, hey?

                            And who knows?

                           It could be true!

                                Mike JN

MikeJN --

What version of SPORTShrooms(tm) are you on?  

Do you have V3.1 or do you have T3.2.  If you've got T3.2 they must
be a helluva lot stronger than I spec-ed them out to be......

'Saw

    He's lyin'.  He didn't make that up (well, maybe the pig part).  I've
    heard and read variations of that story as the origins of soccer
    before.

IM HI ON LIF!!!!
DURGS AR KNOT TOO BLAM!!!!!

YUO NO THIS CHINSAWS!! DO NOT MAKE FUN OF THNIGS YUO ALLREDDY NO!!!!

MIEK JN!!!

�IM HI ON LIF!!!!
�DURGS AR KNOT TOO BLAM!!!!!
�
�YUO NO THIS CHINSAWS!! DO NOT MAKE FUN OF THNIGS YUO ALLREDDY NO!!!!
�
�MIEK JN!!!


Ladies and Gentlemen, 

I'm proud to announce here today, the latest product from Chainsaw Chemology,
SPORTShroomsPLUS(tm).....

'Saw

�    He's lyin'.  He didn't make that up (well, maybe the pig part).  I've

MAYBE THE PIG PART?????

Mac, yur tape is slipping!
Case you didn't notice, without the pig part, there's no story.

I, too, had heard of football played between entire villages... so I
took that... and the rest is pure sPIGulation.

Mike JN

Note:

For the origins of Roller Derby, please see Ben Hur.

Mike `plumbing the 
               mysteries of life, 
                     ancient astronauts, and
                             uh.... other stuff' JN

Actually, that's the origin of what American's call soccer, or the
rest of the world calls football.

There's evidence that native Americans (both north and south americans)
played for days on end over miles of terrain with animal bladders that
were sewn together.

Somewhere along the line, I'd bet they got tired of just kicking it
around, and picked it up and carried it.  That's probably the basis
of rugby, because the only guy that can be tackled is the ball carrier.
That would fit in with one of these gigantic early games of "keep away".

From rugby, an early form of American Football evolved, and somewhere
in the 1900s forward passing was introduced (supposedly at Rutgers
I've heard) when someone got tired of always passing back (as in
rugby) and decided to heave the ball downfield.


'Saw

�Somewhere along the line, I'd bet they got tired of just kicking it
�around, and picked it up and carried it.  That's probably the basis
�of rugby, because the only guy that can be tackled is the ball carrier.
    
    That somewhere took place in 18mumblemumble at the Rugby School in
    Rugby, England.  During a soccer game, William Webb Ellis picked up the
    ball and raced for the opposing goal line.  He touched it down and
    everyone from both teams jumped on top of him (thus the tackle was
    born) for being such an idiot.  His pure genious wasn't realized until
    much later.
    
�From rugby, an early form of American Football evolved, and somewhere
�in the 1900s forward passing was introduced (supposedly at Rutgers
�I've heard) when someone got tired of always passing back (as in
�rugby) and decided to heave the ball downfield.
    
    The forward pass is really what made the break between Rugby Union
    Football and (American) Football.  Blocking finished it off.  Rugby's
    scrummage became Football's line of scrimmage.  Rugby's hook became
    Football's snap.  Rugby's scrumhalf became Football's quarterback. 
    Rugby's forwards became Football's linemen.  Backs stayed backs (what
    do you expect of backs anyway ;^) ).  Rugby's try� became Football's
    touchdown (although Football took the actual touching down of the ball
    away).
    
    Rugby Union also spun off the sports of Rugby League, Australian Rules
    Football, and Gaelic Football.
    
    �A score in rugby is called a try because in the early days of the
    game, touching the ball down in the opponents goal did not result in an
    automatic score.  It gave the scorer the right to "try" and kick the
    ball through the uprights.  Eventually the touchdown was worth points
    and the conversion kick was worth extra, similar to Football's TD and
    PA.

And somewhere along the line football added pads.

We ruggers still take our bruises like men.....[lotsa smilies!]


'Saw

PS  Practice starts tomorrow night...ugh!

    Could you imagine playing football with NO PADS, I can see playing
    rugby with no pads most of the competators are .....never mind I 
    dont want to offend anyone who things rugbys a real sport :-),
    Ok its a real sports because there is a chance of injury, but its
    still not real football...its a gentlemens game....:-) footballs
    a MANs GAME.
    				Football Ben very vary good to me

�    Could you imagine playing football with NO PADS, I can see playing
�    rugby with no pads most of the competators are .....never mind I 
�    dont want to offend anyone who things rugbys a real sport :-),
�    Ok its a real sports because there is a chance of injury, but its
�    still not real football...its a gentlemens game....:-) footballs
�    a MANs GAME.

The main difference between football and rugby, in terms of injuries,
is that the major injuries in football are knees, while in rugby
it's shoulders.

There's other differences too, like the fact that rugby action is
continuous for 40 minutes at a time, unlike footballs 12 minutes of
action spread over three hours real time. ;^)

To quote and old quote --  Rugby is a gentleman's game played by
hooligans...   I prefer the definition "Elegant Violence"


'Saw (who's dreading that first practice tomorrow night....)

    Re quote
    I had heard it a different way:
    "Rugby is a beastly game played by gentlemen, football (soccer) is a
    gentlemenly game played by beasts and American football is a beasly
    game played by beasts"

�To quote and old quote --  Rugby is a gentleman's game played by
�hooligans...  
    
    'Saw misquoted an old quote.  Rugby started in what would be considered
    private schools (in the U.S.) of England.  Mr. Hill has it correct in
    .225.

Yeah, I stand corrected.  It was even a p-name of mine a while back,
so I'm doubly embarassed.

My only excuse was that I came out of a meeting, checked notes really
quick, hadn't had any coffee, and was just plain mixed up....

A Hooligan's Sport played by gentlemen....


'Saw, who's stocking up on Myoflex for Wednesday morning.....8^)

    
    -1
    
    What the hell is Myoflex, some kind of 'roid?
    
    -Just curious
    

�    What the hell is Myoflex, some kind of 'roid?

Yeah, I wish....8^)

Myoflex is an analgesic creme, similar to Ben Gay or Mineral Ice
but without the smell.  It works really well the morning after.

Last fall, I used it a lot cause my hands get kind of stiff after
working out in the cold like that....

Rugby tends to be pretty clean from steroid abuse from what I've
heard, although they have instituted random drug testing for the
World Cup.

I feel some pretty natural agressive tendency surge to the front
sometimes when I play.  I can't imagine what it would be like to
be on the juice and playing.  I think you could kill someone that
way.....

'Saw    

5.229� but without the smell.  It works really well the morning after.

5.229� Last fall, I used it a lot cause my hands get kind of stiff after
5.229� working out in the cold like that....

	Man o' man, what somebody with a warped mind could do with those 
statements...

    'Saw,
    Too late for the reminder but I hope ya took 2 aspirins before
    going to bed to ease/minimize the pain.
    
    Kev
    

�    Too late for the reminder but I hope ya took 2 aspirins before
�    going to bed to ease/minimize the pain.
    
I always do that.  And it's not too late -- practice is tonight, and 
from the sounds of the weather forecast, if we're not indoors (a good
possibility) then I'll have to worry more about frostbite than
aching joints and muscles....

Oh yeah, it also helps if you wash the aspirin down with Jack Daniels 8^)

'Saw    

A football related story from rugby practice (eat your heart out Bob Hunt ;^))


It seems that one of the prop's father-in-law was in charge of this annual
banquet for some-or-other group.  Well, the group had Jumbo Elliot as
the guest speaker.

Afterwards in the bar, Richie (our prop) and Jumbo decided to do a little
drinking.  As big as he is, you can imagine how Jumbo can suck down the
sauce.  Richie's no lightweight (almost 300 himself) but he looks like
a little kid next to jumbo.

Anyway, Jumbo is telling Richie about Bruce Smith.  All game Jumbo
said, he'd been trying to work on Smith's ribs.  Smith wouldn't 
show it however.  Finally, near the end of the game, he looked over
at Buffalo's huddle and there was Smith, holding his ribs...

The bottom line assessment is the Jumbo's a great guy, if you want to
buy him a shot of tequila and a beer he'll let ya, and he's very
personable....

'Saw

    
    Sheesh!!!
    
    The Original "Jumbo" Elliot was really
    
    Jim Elliot, Track Coach for 'Nova!!!
    
    He had guys like Marty Liquiori, Pete Farrell, Bob Zieminshi, Ron
    Delaney and virtually OWNED every relay race greater than 1 mile in
    lenght!!!!
    
    HTH,
    
    Kev
    
    :^)
    
    

Jumbo got the name at football practice one day.  They were running
laps before practice, and I believe it was Parcells who yelled out
"Come on Jumbo, pick it up".  The name stuck.

At 6-7, 305, he IS jumbo.....

And boy did he improve over the course of the season....

'Saw    
    

    � I don't think there's any plans for new franchises in the NFL.
    
 Not true, Mike.  The NFL has already announced plans to add two new teams
 in time for the 1993 season.  
 
 Current scuttlebutt has one of the new teams located in a city that
 previously lost an NFL team.  That would be St. Louis, Baltimore, or
 Oakland.  And the other team would be in a new market.  Charlotte,
 Memphis, and Jacksonville are on this list.   From everything I've read,
 St. Louis and Charlotte are the leading candidates.    Announcement is
 expected this year.
 
 The Richardson family from Spartanburg, SC, have formed a group that is
 pursuing the Charlotte bid.  The city of Charlotte has already purchased
 the land for a downtown 70,000 seat stadium and the same architect who
 drew Joe Robbie Stadium in Miami has already completed plans for it.   The
 first spade of dirt will turn the minute the franchise is awarded.   If,
 of course, it is awarded.
    
 And I'll be a charter member season tix holder.
 
 Sir Robert of Hunt

Good news, Bobert!

I, personally wouldn't mind seeing them realign both conferences while
they're at it. More in line with geography, and without regard for who
is at present in what conference. `Course they'd probably have to start
the record books over again for some categories.

RE: Charlotte

If they'd support football like they do hoops, I'd be all for them
getting a franchise. Good for the game.

Mike JN

� RE: Charlotte
� 
� If they'd support football like they do hoops, I'd be all for them
� getting a franchise. Good for the game.
 
 We've already got a decent-sized contingent here in the two DEC offices in
 Charlotte that have pledged their sacred honor (what's left of it) to pony
 up for season tix if and when they go on sale.   With the nice weather
 down here, we could be looking at tailgate parties in shirtsleeves into
 well into December. 
 
 We'll probably have to bundle up a little tighter, though, for those
 important playoff games in January.  :-) :-)
 
 I just hope we don't get one of those girly-mon "singular" nicknames like
 the "Magic" or the "Heat".   There was talk of naming the Hornets the
 "Charlotte Spirit" instead.  Bogus.   
 
 I want a ferocious animal nickname like Bearcats or Cougars or something
 similar.   Heck, I'd even go for something like the Rebels or the Maulers
 or the Mavericks or whatever but we'll probably get the Charlotte
 Preachers instead.   Puh-raize Jeeeeez-zus !!!
 
 Sir Robert of Hunt

Bob, Count me among the committed-to-season-football-tickets. Hell, I'll
take 2. 

The Spirit was the first pass at the Hornets but luckily for us the
clamor of the local fans prevailed. Please keep it plural, although the
team may not be called Charlotte but rather the Carolinas Anythings.

TTom

Since I'll never probably be able to afford a team of my own... I hereby
bequeath the rights to:

                     THE CHARLOTTE BARKING BEAVERS

Mike JN

    Didn't the WFL's Charlotte entry go by the Hornets? Is there some
    old-time connection to the name, or was it just because the team
    recycled the black & gold uniforms from the NY Stars? If you're going
    to take the name of an old defunct team, how 'bout the (ex-ABA)
    Carolina Cougars. Nice manly name. 
    
    If Charlotte can support a NFL team, why not? As long as they dont allow
    that guy who designed the baseball team's uniforms near the stadium or
    wear girly-mon colors like Mauve and Lavendar and Teal to go with their
    girly-mon singular name, they'll be fine. 
    
Tom

The other Hornets is/was a Greensboro baseball team, the Green Hornets, I
believe. 

The WLAF entry for the Carolinas is in Raleigh and it's the Knights, I
think, like the Charlotte minor league baseball team, both of which are
owned by George Shinn, of Charlotte Hornets ownership fame. 

Speaking of the Knights, the black uniforms were outlawed by the Chicago
Cubs, who wanted the uniforms to look like theirs. The designer, Chapel
Hill native Alexander Julian, took it very personal that people didn't
like his design. He likened it to illiterates criticizing Hemingway.
Calling Big Al a Girly-mon gives him a lot of credibility. The latest
rumor has it that he's redesigning the No Carolina Tar Heels basketball
uniforms and warm up costumes. We're all certainly looking forward to
that, I can tell you.

TTom

 TTom is right.  The team might be called the Carolina whatevers.   Its
 location in Charlotte so close to the Carolinas border guarantees its
 appeal to both states.   Plus the Richardsons operate out of Spartanburg,
 South Carolina.  Jerry Richardson, the top gun, is a former Baltimore
 Colts player and he and his family own a string of fast-food restaurants
 and motor hotels throughout the Southeast.
 
 As for the WLAF team, George Shinn is the owner of the Raleigh-Durham
 Skyhawks and Roman Gabriel is the coach and general manager and all-around
 big cheese.  They are supposed to play their games at Carter-Finlay
 Stadium on the campus of NC State in Raleigh.
 
 Shinn is also the owner of the NBA Charlotte Hornets, the Chicago Cubs' AA
 Charlotte Knights, and the Texas Rangers' A Gastonia Rangers.  His dream,
 as he states, is to own a major league baseball team.  Right now, he is
 campaigning to have the Charlotte Knights replaced with a AAA team.  He's
 a busy man.  He "made his bones" in the business school business.   
 
 I don't remember an old mid-1970s WFL team in either Carolina.
 
 As for the nickname "Hornets", it dates back to the American Revolution. 
 The British Lord Cornwallis, on his way up to Yorktown to meet his final
 defeat, fought a bitter little skirmish with some Carolina patriots.  He
 claimed afterwards that they fought like a nest of angry hornets.
 
 The "Tar Heels" nickname stems from that war, also, if I'm not mistaken. 
 Another group fought and dug in so hard they seemed to be stuck in the
 ground like they had, you got it, tar on their heels.
 
 Bob Hunt

I nominate the 

CHarlotte Thumpers (as in bible)


dropkick me through the goalposts of life...


Metz

 
 I thought the nickname Tar Heels was derived from the four corner offense? ;^)

 I think Charlotte is at the top of the list for an expansion NFL team due
 to the fact that the local business folks are ready to dump all kinds of
 bucks into. The fan support is also there and the weather ain't so bad.
 Also the fact that they sellout the NBA games and sell all kinds of NBA
 paraphenalia will not be lost on Mr. Taligubue....

 mike

 The Richardsons from Spartanburg also contributed a pretty fair chunk of
 change to the NFL's strike fund war chest in 1987.
 
 Here's hoping that this is one "bribe" that goes to a good cause, namely
 securing an NFL expansion team in the Queen City.
 
 Charlotte is an impressive 4th or 5th in total sales of NBA mechandise. 
 Almost all of it in the Carolinas.    Not bad considering the competition
 in New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Apprently not everyone felt that Warren Moon was a product of a
    stat-pumping offense.  He was given the 1990 Jim Thorpe award as the
    NFL's Most Valuable Player

    Needless to say, it was well-deserved !

 More news on the NFL expansion front ...
 
 Last week was one helluva week as far as speculation on which cities will
 get the next two teams.  Here goes ...
 
 Fred Smith, the big cheese at Federal Express in Memphis, announced that
 he is no longer interested in owning any part of an NFL team.   This is a
 severe blow to Memphis' hopes for a team.   Smith was the key financial
 component of the group trying to get a team.  He said he wants to devote
 more time to his family and FedEx takes enough time away as it is.
 
 Now the NFL Expansion Committee has insisted all along that it will pick
 the cities first and then name the owners.   This keeps Memphis in the
 running, of course, but it clouds their ownership picture considerably. 
 Smith's departure is not good news for Memphis in any scenario.
 
 Bob Tisch last week bought Tim Mara's half of the New York Giants. 
 Tisch's brother, Larry Tisch, is the big cheese at CBS.   Both Tisch
 brothers are buddy-buddy with former commish Pete Rozelle.  All well and
 good.  However, Bob Tisch was the primary financial piece of the Baltimore
 bid for an expansion team.  So, now Baltimore's bid looks as shaky as
 Memphis.  Both groups have lose billions of dollars in financial clout.
 
 So, this should brighten up spirits in the other cities competing for the 
 two teams, right ???   Namely Chorlotte and St. Louis ...
 
 But the Missouri legislature defeated a bill that would have provided the
 first $4.5 million of funding needed to break ground for a new stadium for
 the potential new team.  So now the St. Louis group (in which Walter
 Payton is heavily involved) may not be able to get a new place to play
 which means the new team might have to play in the relatively small Busch
 Stadium ... which was why Bill Bidwill took the Cardinals to Phoenix in
 the first place.
 
 And the folks in Charlotte decided they needed something to worry about,
 too.   There's concern that the Richardson group spearheading the
 Charlotte bid might not be able to secure enough private financing to
 build the new downtown stadium should Charlotte get a team.   No details
 or facts behind this ... just worry for worry's sake.
 
 The only city with any good news for itself is Jacksonville which secured
 approval and/or funding to renovate the Gator Bowl should the city be
 awarded a team.
    
 Conclusions ???  Who knows ...   Memphis and Baltimore have to be worried. 
 There's no way the NFL can look past the fact that these two cities have
 both lost their primary bucks.   I think St. Louis has reason to be
 concerned, too.  I can't see the NFL going back to Busch Stadium.  It's
 small by NFL standards, it's an artificial surface, and, like it or not,
 it took a share of the blame for chasing the Cardinals out of town.
 
 I think the people in Charlotte are worrying too much.  The Richardsons
 are beaucoup wealthy and I can't see them failing to get private
 financing.  Hell, the banks in this country have made far worse loans than
 this one would ever be.  Plus the mega-banks in North Carolina (NCNB and
 First Union) are heavy, heavy hitters and I can't see them wanting to take
 any kind of a negative PR hit if it became known that they made life hard
 for the Richardsons' and the Carolinas' NFL hopes.
 
 And even if every bank in the entire country refused to give them a loan,
 the Japanese banks would surely jump at the chance to have another piece
 of America on their books.
 
 Jacksonville, I don't know.  I haven't heard them mentioned as a serious
 condidate up until now.  With a spanking new Gator Bowl, they might be
 right back in the race, though.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Center Mike Webster, former Steeler and more recently of the KC Chiefs
    announced his retirement as a player yesterday.
    Webster played in the NFL for 17 seasons and will be a shoe-in to get
    elected to the HoF on the first ballot when he becomes eligible in 5
    years.
    
    JaKe
    

    1991 Draft Order:
    
    1.  NE
    2.  Cleveland
    3.  Atlanta
    4.  Denver
    5.  LA Rams
    6.  Phoenix
    7.  TB
        (NYJ exerciesed 1990 supplemental draft)
    8.  GB
    9.  San Diego
    10. Detroit
    11. Dallas (obtained from Minnesota)
    12. Dallas
    13. Atlanta (obtained from Indianapolis)
    14. Dallas (obtained from NO)
    15. Pittsburgh
    16. Seattle
    17. Houston
    18. Cincinnati
    19. Philadelphia
    20. Washington
    21. Kansas City
    22. Chicago
    23. Miami
    24. Los Angeles Raiders
    25. San Francisco
    26. Buffalo
    27. NY Giants

    26. Buffalo
    27. NY Giants 		; How SWEET it is 8^)

    It's official.  The NFL made good on their threat and has taken the
    Super Bowl away from Phoenix and awarded it to Pasadena in response to
    Arizona voters refusing to allow Martin Luther King's birthday to be
    celebrated as a state holiday.

    However, the NFL has awarded the 1996 Super Bowl to Phoenix conditional
    on Arizona passing a 1992 referendum making Martin Luther King Day a
    state holiday.
    
    John

 More importantly the Redskins' play wavier the good ole boys and they
 waffled.

 Instant replay is here to stay I would say as it passed yesterday with
 21 out 27 votes. 

 mike

 Unbelievable.   Leave it to the NFL to further blur the distinctions
 between sports and politics.
 
 A sad day for democracy.   The National Football League, armed with a
 special waiver from government anti-trust laws, has seen fit to
 economically punish the people of a state for the results of their
 completely lawful referendum.
 
 Yes, it is social progress on the "racism" problem in this country but it
 sure is a step backwards for the political process.
 
 Arizona voters were dumb but they were legal.  Apparently, the NFL ignores
 that simple fact.
 
 Bob Hunt

Yeah!  What Bob said....


And instant replay sips through a big ol' sewer pipe too!


'Saw

    The only thing I regret about the NFL decision is that they didn't take
    it to a vote of the players in their own democratic initiative, where 
    the state of Arizona would have undoubtedly met the same fate.  The 
    fact that NFL management is able to make such decisions based on 
    promises to claim jumpers (i.e. Bill Bidwell) is in itself an 
    outrage.  Had the players had a say in who would be granted the
    privilege, and not the right, of hosting the game, there probably 
    never would have been a problem.
    
    glenn
    

    Bob, the NFL is a business. Not only must you be sensitive to your
    buyers, but to your employees. 
    
    The NFL's player population is at least 45% black. A sizable percentage
    of the ticket and merchandise-buying public is black.
    
    And rightly or wrongly, Arizona has earned an image as a state that
    offically tolerates racism. the MLK holiday was just the proverbial
    straw that broke the camel's back.
    
    It was too public and too blatant to ignore. 
    
    The NFL has the right to take it's product and market it wherever and
    however it damn well likes. And if I have a business that relys heavily
    on African-American patronage, then it is in my best business interests
    to be sensitive to important A-A issues. I would not sell South African
    products, for example, nor would I sell a product in an location 
    that is hostile to A-A interests.
    
    While I doubt that alturism led the NFL's list of reasons, they are to
    be commended, IMO. I see nothing to be gained in rewarding stupidity.
    That happens too much in today's world already. 
    
    Anti-trust exemptions ahve nothing to do with the issue.
    
    As for IR, I think the reversal in the Philly-Skins playoff game saved
    IR .... good !
    
    Doc

> The National Football League, armed with a
> special waiver from government anti-trust laws,
    
    Unlike MLB, the NFL does not hold an antitrust exemption.  They may 
    be guilty in a number of instances of antitrust violations, but that 
    is currently a matter of opinion and not of standing legal decision.  
    (Well, actually, I guess they were technically guilty in the USFL 
    case and had to cough up treble damages in the sum of $3 for their 
    supposed transgressions.)
    
    In the mid-70's, an arbiter granted NFL players free agency and the
    players punted it away in collective bargaining.  After expiration 
    of the last contract, the courts have ruled that the NFL is not in
    violation of antitrust law in maintaining the terms of the last
    agreement and that the matter should be settled in collective
    bargaining.  The players are still re-grouping.
    
    Bottom line, as discussed the last time this issue came up, the NFL
    has been given a free ride by certain localities in the form of tax
    dollars for stadiums, facilities, etc.  They have not been given any
    special dispensations by the U.S. Congress and therefore the U.S.
    taxpayers.
    
    glenn
       

 I thought they had an antitrust exemption just like baseball.  You know,
 one of those "good for the country" type things.
 
 If they don't have an exemption, why are they always doing things to try
 and protect themselves then ???   
 
 When they instituted "Plan B" a few years ago, I thought it was to throw a
 legal bone to the players to remove one of their antitrust grievances,
 namely no free agency.
 
 Plus I also thought that the NFLPA voted to decertify itself as the
 bargaining arm of the players in order to put the NFL back on shaky ground
 in the antitrust arena.
 
 Color me confused ...   Isn't the first time.
 
 Bob Hunt

    The NFL should do this the right way and make all Super Bowl states put
    the MLK holiday to popular vote.  The players should get involved too. 
    Arizona shouldn't be singled out.  Then we'll expose all the bigot states.
    The Superdome would never see another Super Bowl, that's for sure.
    
    Local talk shows had some interesting comments.  One guy told everyone
    to pack up all their NFL paraphenailia in a box and said it to NFL
    headquarters, postage due.
    
    Mike

    Mike, I believe that 48 out of 50 states have declared MLK's B-Day as a
    state holiday.  Arizona has effectively singled themselves out.
    
    Bob, Glenn's right.  The USFL "successfully" sued the NFL for antitrust
    violations.  The NFL was found guilty and the USFL won $3 in damages. 
    The Plan-B may have been a bone to keep the Players' Union away from
    the draft and free agency issues.  Since the NFL had already been
    declared non-exempt from anti-trust laws, the league had to do
    something to protect itself from another suit.

    Just what I've read, Bob.  My understanding is that the NFL has done
    all those things to avoid being taken to court for antitrust violation
    (where they've held on against this latest argument from the players 
    of no contract, then no draft and no free agent compensation).  That 
    doesn't mean they have an antitrust exemption.  An exemption would 
    mean that they could legally break the law, if you will.
    
    This isn't to say that the NFL is "good", or even that laws shouldn't
    be written to protect pro athletes further.  What it does mean is that
    they're not currently getting any special treatment from the U.S.
    government, unless you argue that the Justice Department is in on the
    big fix (an argument that has been made under Reagan/Bush).
    
    Still, I can't call the NFL's action on the Arizona issue an affront 
    to democracy.  Maybe wrong in the opinion of some, but I see little
    connection to the merits of the democratic process.  Under the 
    Constitution the states can vote on a lot of things, even by 
    referendum; that doesn't mean that independent agencies are required 
    to support or abide by those decisions.
    
    glenn
       

>Then we'll expose all the bigot states.
    
    Unfortunatly, then, we would have no more football in the USA.
    
    	--dan'l

    Can someone please explain to me why the NFL doesn't have the right
    to play the Super Bowl wherever it wants?
    
    IMHO, it is an economical godsend for any city or state to obtain a
    Super Bowl, with literally tens of millions of dollars pouring into 
    the local economy.  No site has the inalienable right to host the
    event.  The game belongs to the NFL, and they can pretty much do
    with it whatever they want.  If you want the benefits of the Super
    Bowl, you'd better be ready to kiss the NFL's kiester. 
    
    Similar situation with expansion in sports.  More than one city has
    been awarded a franchise, but lost it due to lack of community support,
    stadium funding, available capital, etc.  This might happen to the
    hockey expansion franchise in Tampa.  IF the NHL doesn't see
    significant progress toward a new building by (I think) September,
    Tampa loses the franchise.
    
    NAZZ

Most states simply declared it a holiday. Then implemented it.

Arizona put it to a vote.

I think the vote against was not so much a racial statement (I prefer to
believe that) than a vote against ANOTHER `paid' State holiday. Most
folks generally feel State and Local employees get ENOUGH paid holidays,
and a pretty nice vacation and Sick Leave package, without giving them
ANOTHER paid holiday.

I suspect if it had just been declared a Day of Recognition for Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr., there would not have been much backlash. I've
always felt he was quite a worthy individual.

Mike JN

	I thought Arizona had Martin Luther King day as a state holiday 
then governor Meecham repealed it.  As for the antitrust lawsuit filed by 
the USFL, I thought they sued to prove that the antitrust violations of the 
NFL led to the demise of the league, and that the jury said that while they 
agreed that the NFL did engage in antitrust actions they were not the 
reason the USFL failed, then rewarded Trump's leage a dollar's worth of 
triple damages.

	The instant replay rule would be good if they applied it like the 
above mentioned USFL did.  The coach has one challange per half, if he's 
right the play is overruled, if he's wrong the team challenging loses a 
timeout.  This lets the referees work the game without a camera on their 
back and forces them to make calls, not noncalls that are then reviewed.  
The NLF will never admit though that the USFL had the right idea for 
instant replay and that they've been wrong.

				/Don

>    Mike, I believe that 48 out of 50 states have declared MLK's B-Day as a
>    state holiday.  Arizona has effectively singled themselves out.
    
    Yes but less than 50% have a PAID holiday.  Big difference!
    
    On of the local reporters interviewed Sam Wyche (official NFL rebel
    ;-)) in Hawaii.  He said Arizona is getting a raw deal and that the NFL
    is full of hyprocrites.  He said, "Everyone in the NFL from the
    commissioner on down was in full operation on MLK day!"
    
    Mike

 All of the rebuttals on this issue are sound and valid.   Plus we've
 already hacked this topic to death ... last year when it first came up.
 
 To close it out  ... in my mind, it's just as easy to value the "goodness"
 of the NFL's move as it is to deride the "badness".   On the "good" side,
 an argument can easily be made that the NFL is ...
 
 1) simply exercising its freedom to award the game to any city it chooses,
 2) setting a proactive example to improve race relations in society,
 3) pleasing a large percentage of its "employees" and so on ...
 
 But just as many arguments can be made on the "dark" side of their move. 
 Such as ...
 
 1) they're grandstanding for publicity purposes,
 2) they didn't like the results of a legal referendum,
 3) they've been extremely negligent in hiring minorities and so on ...
 
 I like to be open-minded about these things but the NFL has a long history
 of doing exactly what it wants for exactly its own purposes and I'm not
 convinced there still isn't a wolf inside their sheep's clothing.
 
 Bob Hunt

 
> But just as many arguments can be made on the "dark" side of their move. 
> Such as ...


But Luke, beware the Dark Side of their move.  If you give into it,
it will own you....

(Sorry Bob, couldn't resist!)

fw 

    The issue here is a PAID holiday.  Even several counties in Arizona
    observe the day (not observed statewide though, just urban areas).  
    I even wrote in here that week that my kids had the day off from school.
    
    All this from a 28 team organization that has 1 black coach.
    
    Mike

    One thing I can see bad about the USFL-type instant replay is this
    scenario:
    
    A team requests that a play be reviewed feeling that it was called
    incorrectly.  The play goes "upstairs" and to everyone's eyes the call
    should be overturned.  Except for one person, the replay official, who
    doesn't see it that way.  The team then loses a time out.  That's
    double the punishment for a bad call.
    
    	--dan'l

    On Instant Reply :
    
    Nazz is almost correct. A coach had three challanges in a half, rather
    than one. When he challanged, the refs threw a special red flag. If the
    replay proved correct, the play was reversed. If not, then you lost a
    T.O.
    
    FWIW, I think it is spinelessness in the replay booth that is the
    biggest problem. A replay is shown, and most of the civilized world can
    see that the play needs to be reversed.
    
    Then you hear the ref say "Inconclusive ....." or "The whistle had
    blown before ...."
    
    I *hate* that !
    
    re NFL/Arizona
    
    I don't want anyone to think that I believe that the NFL is pulling the
    Super Bowl out of Arizona because their hearts are pure. 
    
    Ha. The NFL is probably the most public-realtions oriented of the major
    sports (not suprising since Pete Rozelle was a former PR man).
                                                                  
    Ten years ago, they would have played and never batted an eyelash. Yet
    I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Meachan repealed a holiday by 
    executive order, and then made a series of really stupid comments on top 
    of it. And judging by the reaction of officials and the public, he was 
    allowed to slide with relative impunity. 
    
    Why not simply put in a Day Of Observation, or make it a non-paid
    holiday ? Didn't the last referendum have that provision ?
    
    If so, I can't say I have a lot of sympathy for Arizona ... sorry Mike.
    
    And Nazz has it dead right - the NFL isn't obligated to play a Super
    Bowl where it doesn't want to. If the city wants the millions of
    dollars that a SB can generate, then it had better be ready to dance.
    
    Doc

>    Why not simply put in a Day Of Observation, or make it a non-paid
>    holiday ? 
    
    See my prior note.  It is observed as a non-paid day, but not
    statewide.
    
    > Didn't the last referendum have that provision ?
    
    only for a state paid day.
    
    Mike

    
    > The issue here is a PAID holiday.  Even several counties in Arizona
    > observe the day (not observed statewide though, just urban areas).  
    > I even wrote in here that week that my kids had the day off from school.
    
    So Arizona should at least whip up a law for a working holiday.  As I
    recall, one of the options was to trade the paid holiday for Columbus 
    Day.  New Hampshire's latest incarnation, coming up again for vote, 
    trades in an obscure local holiday known as Fast Day.  It's quite
    evident that the NFL doesn't give a damn how anyone chooses to observe
    the holiday, just that it's on the books.  The NFL isn't forcing
    another paid holiday on Arizona; that's for Arizona to work out if 
    they feel it's worth it...
    
    As I've stated before, as a resident of New Hampshire, I don't
    appreciate my legislature's reluctance to get something done based 
    on economic rationale, especially when it's used to cover for other
    legislators who continue to use the same old criticisms of King as
    Communist sympathizer, adulterer, and Vietnam War protester.  I don't
    live in Arizona, so I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised 
    if some of the same isn't behind the foot-dragging there.
    
    As far as Sam Wyche goes, he's hypocrite No. 1-A in my book.  He's
    gotten more mileage out of his "principles" on that locker room thing
    than a cheap you-know-what.  Wyche's self-appointed status as the 
    conscience of the NFL considering his history has become as bad as NFL
    management itself...
    
    glenn
     

 Doc, I don't understand in one note you say good about the instant replay
 and in the next you point out all the reasons it sips. Except for time
 delays. Let's see take a 100 replays, 85 of them are good calls, 15 call
 for a reversal, now we get 10 inconclusives 4, the whistle blew on the field
 and 1 overturned call. It isn't worth the time it isn't worth the effort,
 the rule sucks! Get rid of it. It's a game, it wasn't meant to be perfect
 only enjoyed and IR delays and non-calls are not enjoyable.

 One good thing they did motify the In the grasp rule. If A QB is scrambling
 out of the pocket one man can't an in the grasp rule unless it's painfully
 obvious that he's holding the QB up for players B&C to decapitate him...

 mike
     

    
    
re.277

> Doc, I don't understand in one note you say good about the instant replay
> and in the next you point out all the reasons it sips. 
    
    Because I think that officials on the field and in the press box aren't
    too happy with IR, and that they may be subtly dragging the system down
    because their hearts are not into it. IR is a good concept, often has
    decent execution, but it can't get better until the NFL shows more than
    a half-assed committment. Maybe they have now.
    
> One good thing they did motify the In the grasp rule. If A QB is scrambling
> out of the pocket one man can't an in the grasp rule unless it's painfully
> obvious that he's holding the QB up for players B&C to decapitate him...

    It's about time ! That was one of the worst rules the NFL installed,
    and they have had some bad ones. All that rule did was penalize a
    Cunningham, Elway, or Moon ....
    
    Doc

    
>    Because I think that officials on the field and in the press box aren't
>    too happy with IR, and that they may be subtly dragging the system down
>    because their hearts are not into it. IR is a good concept, often has
<    decent execution, but it can't get better until the NFL shows more than
<    a half-assed committment. Maybe they have now.
  

 Why should they be unhappy with other than they can be singled out nationally
 for screwing up? Aren't most replay officials' former referee, umps etc? I'd
 think they'd love it cause it gives em more job security. And I saw double
 bolderdash to the above statement that it often has decent execution.
 Especially when a reversal is called for... 

They also have expanded the celebration rule

(whatever the hell they called it... inappropriate celebration or
something?) 

...anyway, I thought it was pretty stupid to begin with... now they've
expanded it to include the sidelines. No more Icky Shuffle from `The
Dancing Dork'.

Do these people need a hobby, or what?

Mike JN

    This is getting ridiculouslouslous...How can you take away the Icky
    Icky Shake....Please.  ITs part of the game to celebrate, you intercept
    the ball and run it back for the game winning TD that puts you in the
    playoffs and they want you to walk quietly to the sidelines whil 40,000
    fans go bloody crazy.....Maybe they should change it to 2 hand touch
    while there passing these stupids rules....Football is one of the
    greatest sports to watch and there trying to change that...It SU$%*
    
    		Just_ANother_Fan_who_has_no_say_in_what_the_NFL_Does

    Nexted thing ya know they'll take away the congratulatory handshakes
    after the game.
    
    Can't stand the "Dancing Dork's" antics but see no reason to abolish
    them.  What the hell are they trying to do, make watching a football
    game like watching an opera??????
    
    JaKe
    

    That's going to be a difficult rule to enforce.  What is considered
    celebration on the sidelines?  Whenever a TD is scored, the everyone on
    the sideline goes bonkers, from the Defensive line to the ball boys.  
    
    I hope one good thing comes out of it though...no more gatorade
    showers.
    
    	--dan'l
    

     
    You mean the cheerleaders can't jump up and down no more and kick and
    shake their pompoms and stuff like that after a touchdown? 
    Sheesh...what are they there for, just for looks???
    
    Does the NFL plan to follow the players after the game to make sure
    they don't have a celebretory beer in the pub after the game?
    
    Dickstah
    

�    shake their pompoms and stuff like that after a touchdown? 

Dickstah,

	That reminded me. Big Suze pops out of the shower this morning.
So I said `Shake those pom poms, kid'.
	 So she gets this sexy look on her face, and leans back and
squares her shoulders like she's going to give it one of those `hootchie
kootchie kootchie' moves..... then she shakes her head like crazy, and
throws water all over me and everything else.

I almost snorted up the bath mat, laughing.

She's getting nuttier by the day. I think I'm rubbing off on her. 

Wait! Did I say `rubbing off on her'!?!??!

I don't think I meant that.... exactly.

I think I meant... uh... my behavior is influencing her... uh... and so
forth.

Yeah. That's the ticket.

Say goodnight Gracie.

Mike JN
    

>         <<< Note 5.259 by EARRTH::BROOKS "It's 25 or 6 to 4 .... " >>>
    
    The residents of the state of Arizona have voted against a holiday in
    honor of MLK.
    
    The NFL has "punished" residents of Arizona for this decision.
    
    The NFL has blackmailed the state of Arizona.
    
    With the prospect of granting the '96 Super Bowl to Phoenix if they
    legalize  a MLK holiday, the NFL is continuing to blackmail the state
    of Arizona.
    
    So much for democracy.
    
    Anyway, as mentioned in another conference, what would your reaction be
    if Arizona had already established MKL day, and the NFL granted the
    Super Bowl to Phoenix *contingent* on Arizona eliminating a state
    holiday for MLK?
    
    It's political blackmail, not matter how you slice it.
    
    Mark.

>	That reminded me. Big Suze pops out of the shower this morning.
>So I said `Shake those pom poms, kid'.
>	 So she gets this sexy look on her face, and leans back and
>squares her shoulders like she's going to give it one of those `hootchie
>kootchie kootchie' moves..... then she shakes her head like crazy, and
>throws water all over me and everything else.


Quick, get me some lacquer for this woodie I got.  And gee, can
somebody tell me if I'm supposed to lacquer it all the way or
half way......



'Saw

    Replay Officials are generally former NFL or college officials with one
    exception.  That exception, Mark Burns, seems to have never been an
    on-field official in his life.  Burns has worked in the league office
    for 7 years, 5 in the Officiating Dept.  Burns, who normally works with
    the Gene Barth crew, was the top-rated Replay Official this past year
    and thus worked the Super Bowl.  Other Replay Officials are:
    
    Bob Beeks		22 years as NFL Line Judge, 5 Super Bowls
    Royal Cathcart	16 years as NFL Line Judge and Side Judge
    Bill Fette		25 years as Pac-10 Field Judge, 3 Rose Bowls
    Jack Fette		23 years as NFL Line Judge, 5 Super Bowls
    Fritz Graf		24 years as NFL Field Judge, 4 Super Bowls
    Dave Hawk		18 years as NFL Side Judge
    Chuck Heberling	22 years as NFL Referee and Line Judge
    Dave Kamanski	25 years in NCAA, 20 years in Pac 10, 3 Rose Bowls
    Tom Kelleher	28 years as NFL Back Judge, 5 Super Bowls
    Grover Klemmer	19 years as NFL Back Judge and Side Judge
    Cal Lepore		15 years as NFL Head Linesman and Referee, 1 Super
    			Bowl, Director of Officiating for USFL and WLAF
    Al Sabato		20 years as NFL Head Linesman, 2 Super Bowls
    George Sladky	17 years in NCAA - 9 with Big Ten, 8 with SWC, 6
    			bowl games
    Bill Swanson	21 years as NFL Back Judge, 2 Super Bowls
    
    John

>somebody tell me if I'm supposed to lacquer it all the way or
>half way......
    
    In my case, I usually only lacquer it halfway because going to the
    hardware store for that second gallon usually takes me out of the mood. 
    
    ;-)
    
    	--dan'l
    

dan'l, 

YOU GOT ME ROLLLLLLIIIINNNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!


Too funny.

    
    > Anyway, as mentioned in another conference, what would your reaction be
    > if Arizona had already established MKL day, and the NFL granted the
    > Super Bowl to Phoenix *contingent* on Arizona eliminating a state
    > holiday for MLK?
    
    I'd say they were making the wrong decision (as opposed to the right
    decision).  I wouldn't say anything about it being illegal or
    anti-democratic, especially if the decision was the will of the 
    players.
    
    glenn
    

    According to the Globe, the 1992 and 1993 season will once again see
    the elimination of the free week between the Conference Championship
    games and the Super Bowl.  For 1991, the season is going to start a
    week earlier, there will be one week with a bye and the free week will
    be in place.  For 1992 and 1993, I would guess that there will be two
    byes.  Apparently, the NFL under Tagliabue will concentrate more on the
    game rather than on the glitz and hype of the Rozelle administration.
    
    The reason given for the crackdown against celebrations is that the NFL
    doesn't want to have an incident like what happened in the most recent
    Cotton Bowl between Texas and Miami.  I can see their point.
    
    John

 �   The reason given for the crackdown against celebrations is that the NFL
 �   doesn't want to have an incident like what happened in the most recent
 �   Cotton Bowl between Texas and Miami.  I can see their point.
 
 Sorry, John, I disagree.  
 
 At $25.00 or more for a ticket, $5.00 to park, another $5.00 for a
 program, $2.25 for a microwaved hot dog and $3.00 for a warm beer, I'd
 like to be able to yell just a little and not have a penalty flag thrown
 at me for "excessive crowd noise".
 
 And I'd also like to see the players whose salaries I'm paying celebrate
 just a little when they do something worthwhile like score the game
 winning points against the hated rival with time winding down.
 
 It's an intense and emotional game.  Players should be able to play it
 that way and the paying customers should be allowed to enjoy it that way. 
 The NFL in its all-consuming drive for mind-numbing conformity forgets
 this simple fact.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Bob,
    
    I don't agree with the league cracking down on crowd noise.  I do agree
    with them cracking down on things like the Ickey Shuffle and other
    choreographed end zone dances.  I agree that a player should be able to
    display emotions provided it's spontaneous.  Too often, the
    choreographed stuff is for no other reason than to taunt and embarrass
    the other team and that's something I don't agree with.  There is a
    certain level of sportsmanship implied no matter how intense and
    emotional the game the game, or at least I've always been taught, that
    you can win without rubbing it in the other guy's face.  That's what I
    want stopped and that's what I think causes the problems when Miami
    plays.
    
    Besides, if I want to watch dancing, I'll watch Solid Gold.
    
    John

    Don't we have Dallas to thank for this?  If I recall, it was the
    Cowboys who tried to interrupt the Redskin's group high five in the
    endzone several years back.  The following year, we had the no
    celebration rule.  Sorry, let 'em dance, prance, flip, strip, moon,
    and swoon.  That's not taunting unless it's in the other guy's face.  
    That's having fun.  I see no difference in this than in spiking the
    football right in the oppositions face.  No consistency here.
    
    Wasn't /Don a Solid Gold dancer?
    
    	--dan'l

 
> And I'd also like to see the players whose salaries I'm paying celebrate
> just a little when they do something worthwhile like score the game
> winning points against the hated rival with time winding down.
 
> It's an intense and emotional game.  Players should be able to play it
> that way and the paying customers should be allowed to enjoy it that way. 
> The NFL in its all-consuming drive for mind-numbing conformity forgets
> this simple fact.
 
    I just can't agree with this point of view more.  IMO the NFL is really
    taking away from the emotion and excitement of professional football.
    
    Joe
 

    I'd rather not have celebrations banned wholesale and that way the 
    consumer can decide who's an ass and who's not.  I think that method 
    works pretty well, actually.  I think everyone saw that Ickey was 
    having just a little bit of fun at the expense of no one in particular, 
    while the backlash against the 'Canes was as strong as any referee's 
    flag could be.  Sportsmanship is an intangible that is to be commended 
    just as are charity and goodwill in society, but you can't force them
    down someone's throat.  Why should sportsmanship be legislated so we 
    won't know what's real and what's cheap Rozelle-style public relations?
    
    glenn
    

    Does this mean Mark Bavaro can no longer get down on his knee in
    prayer after scoring a TD?  Every time I see this I can envision the 
    Mormon Tabernacle Choir appearing in a puff of smoke to belt out a few 
    verses of Ave Maria!
    
    					Steve

>    Does this mean Mark Bavaro can no longer get down on his knee in
>    prayer after scoring a TD?  Every time I see this I can envision the 
>    Mormon Tabernacle Choir appearing in a puff of smoke to belt out a few 
>    verses of Ave Maria!

Well, I know from Bavaro's point of view it's an extremely deep
and personal commitment.  He's a very religious guy, so I don't
think that's of a celebratory nature, but more of his personal
way of giving thanks.


As far as celebration goes, what's the big deal?  The NFL should
worry more about some of the stupid rules they have (IR) rather
than trying to control whether a player celebrates.  

Jeez.....

I always dance, so I'll pray if I want....

I'm may be totally wrong, but I'm a dancin' fo-oo-ool.....


Frank Zappa

    re .299
    
    You must have seen that Tank Mcnamara comic .... :-)
    
    dan'l is right, it was some crybaby Cowboys who got this whole mess
    started. The Skins used to have the Fun Bunch, who used to celebrate TD
    catches by going *over to a quiet corner of the endzone AWAY from
    opponents*, and doing a group high-five. 
    
    After one TD, I think it was Thurman and another guy who took it upon
    themselves to break it up, almost causing a riot.
    
    Since ole Tex Spam (tm) is on the committee, the next year we have this
    silly rule, and now it seems we're stuck with it.
    
    The NFL needs to get a life ....

    
    I always dance when the Pat's score a touchdown.  Course, it's been a
    while.
    
    Move over "Flashdance" and "Footloose".  Here comes "Dancing with
    SLOFS."
    
    Dickstah
    

>Well, I know from Bavaro's point of view it's an extremely deep
>and personal commitment.  He's a very religious guy...
    
    All well and good, but SO WHAT?  Mark, I've got news for you, your god
    doesn't give a damn whether you score a touchdown or not.
    
    Dan

>
>>Well, I know from Bavaro's point of view it's an extremely deep
>>and personal commitment.  He's a very religious guy...
>    
>    All well and good, but SO WHAT?  Mark, I've got news for you, your god
>    doesn't give a damn whether you score a touchdown or not.
>    
>    Dan

  Dan, I've got news for you, Mark's God cares about everything he does,
  and appreciates a humble and thankful heart.

A friend of mine from West Hartford is a friend of Bavaro's wife.

Supposedly when Bavaro scores, he gives thanks to God for being
blessed and having a talent for football.  He's very religious, 
and while I've always had a problem with being a devout Catholic
(must be the Protestant heathen in me) I can understand why
he would do that.

God, from what I've heard, never turns a deaf ear towards a
prayer of thanks...


I don't have a problem with players celebrating.  I like it
more when they shake hands, or hug each other, but I don't think
it's up to the NFL to say no dancing.  On saying that however,
I'd much rather watch the Fly Girls, or the Solid Gold Dancers
than a bunch of burly ball players.....

'Saw

    
> God, from what I've heard, never turns a deaf ear towards a
> prayer of thanks...
    
    Doesn't matter if he does or he doesn't.  As long as Bavaro isn't in
    the ref's face trying to convert him or anything and isn't delaying the
    game, it shouldn't matter what anyone thinks of what he does.  As far
    as I'm concerned, social tolerance includes religious tolerance, but 
    people forget that...
    
    glenn
    
    

    To make all this consistent, the rules are going to have to be modified
    to disallow prayer in the endzone.  Who's to say that Bavarro isn't
    praying that his god do a dance in the face of the fallen defender's
    god.  That is against the celebration rule and I'd hate to see the
    players union use this as a bargaining chip.
    
    	--dan'l

>>    dan'l is right, it was some crybaby Cowboys who got this whole mess
>>    started. The Skins used to have the Fun Bunch, who used to celebrate TD
>>    catches by going *over to a quiet corner of the endzone AWAY from
>>    opponents*, and doing a group high-five. 
>>    After one TD, I think it was Thurman and another guy who took it upon
>>    themselves to break it up, almost causing a riot.
    
      Dennis Thurman, Ron Fellows, and Micheal Downs. True heros of the NFL.
      Besides I think the real issue was triggered when it took 5 LA Rams
      (Doc there one of your fav teams :-) ) to take down Mark Gasteau(sp)
      after a QB sack jam session.

      Sport fans remember your stand on endzone celebrations, because the 
      Cowboys will be dancing all night after they get Randall Hill (Canes WR)
      in the draft :-). Cotton Bowl will never forget Hills tunnel dance. A
      classic.

      If guys can pray at mid field after a game why can't other guys celebrate?
      I as a football fan I want to see it. 

Chuck 

	If the NFL doesn't flag the first guy who drops to his knees and 
starts praying after a touchdown they are engaging in hypocrisy.  They 
would be saying one premeditated nonspontaneous post touchdown routine is 
okay, but another one isn't and that sounds a helluva lot like censorship. 
I say either allow them both (dancing and praying) or disallow them both, 
or the poor referees will have to make a judgement call on whether the post 
touchdown routine is considered in good taste by the NFL hierarchy or not. 
Personally I think the rule is silly.

				/Don

    YO -- NFL hotshots.
    
    If'n ya'll want to get more wimmin's watchin' your game, let the
    boys dance!  At least us poor, uninformed, clueless ladies can
    understand that part.
    
    A&W

    I don't consider prayer in the end zone to be an attempt by a player to
    taunt or embarrass his opposition.  While I don't think it's
    appropriate, I think it's better than end zone boogie-ing.
    
    I'm sorry if you disagree with me but I think anything that is designed
    to embarrass, taunt or show up the opposition is totally inappropriate
    and has no place whatsoever in any athletic competition.  I feel such
    conduct should be penalized.
    
    John

   � I'm sorry if you disagree with me but I think anything that is designed
   � to embarrass, taunt or show up the opposition is totally inappropriate
   � and has no place whatsoever in any athletic competition.  I feel such
   � conduct should be penalized.
    
 Too bad we can't apply your very admirable standards to non-athletic
 competition as well.   For example, seems to me that Bush and his GOP pals
 are doing some supreme taunting of the unlucky Democrats who opposed his
 little desert adventure.   Sure the Republicans aren't doing team high
 fives on CBS in the end zone at RFK but they are, without a doubt, giving
 the Dems some major raspberries.  (Not that I care.)
 
 They're professional athletes, John.  If it's okay to taunt your opponent
 in the political or business world, why not on professional athletic
 playing fields as well ???
 
 I think you're trying to slam the square peg of amateur ethics into the
 round hole of professional competition.   It's a noble goal but I say let
 'em dance.  We paid for it.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    So who's going to define this "unsportsmanlike behavior"?  Or is it one
    of these deals where like pornography, the referee (and Don Shula) knows 
    it when he sees it?
    
    Personally, I kind of like the guy who hands the ball to the referee 
    in the end zone, shakes his teammates' hands, and trots back to the 
    bench with nary a smile on his face.  I think spiking is
    unsportsmanlike, too, but we've all come to live with it.  I just want
    to know which referee has the responsibility for going up and down the
    sideline making sure no one has any teeth showing.  You can get carried
    away with this kind of thing from both points of view.  What will be
    rule *next* year?
    
    glenn
     

    Bob, maybe I'm splitting hairs by what I'm about to say, but let me
    try.
    
    In business to a certain extent, but particularly in politics, the
    taunting that is used is part and parcel of the process.  In order to
    gain the advantage over an opponent, you probe until you find a
    weakness and exploit it as hard as you can.  You use that advantage to
    prove your point.
    
    In pro sports, you exploit the weakness by running a play in the same
    direction, say, right cornerback, for example.  Gaining yards and
    scoring are the point.  The taunting is extraneous to the scoring and
    does nothing other than the equivalent of sticking out your tongue and
    saying "Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah-nyah".  I suppose if you goad the guy
    you're taunting into a cheap penalty then that's a contribution as
    well.  My view is that by scoring the touchdown, you've proved the
    point - and I don't see why anything else is necessary.  What's the
    next step, adding style points to a touchdown for best choreography?
    
    I think one of the worst examples of this was Mark Gastineau.  While I
    wasn't happy when a beaten offensive lineman took the swing at him, I
    wasn't surprised and in fact, was only surprised that it hadn't
    happened earlier.  I would much rather bar the instigation than have
    the retaliation happen.
    
    Most of the pro athletes I've seen don't resort to such cheap tactics
    as end zone dances.  I appreciate the athletes who just hand the ball
    to the nearest official after scoring.  I'm not saying that athletes
    should be robots but I think they should conduct themselves in a classy
    manner.  I don't like Deion Sanders for that reason.  The truly classy
    athletes don't have to embarrass their opposition, in fact, they
    respect their opposition.
    
    Even though it's professional sports, I believe some degree of
    sportsmanship is important and good for the game.  I'm sorry you
    disagree with me.
    
    John  

    Some celebration is OK. Look at hockey. A guy scores a goal and all 5
    skaters on the ice raise their sticks.
    
    But, when an opposing player trots over in front of another bench and
    starts to grind hips or stick his tongue out or something like that, I
    think that is uncalled for. tt i,
    
    Rich
    

    
    > Even though it's professional sports, I believe some degree of
    > sportsmanship is important and good for the game.  I'm sorry you
    > disagree with me.
    
    And this is also where I've disagreed with you, John.  I don't consider
    a rule that places a penalty on acting outside a defined manner to be
    a demonstration of "sportsmanship".  It's more an admission by the
    league, its coaches, and players that they can't control themselves or
    their game.  Vince Lombardi had it right.  His players were *taught*
    how to behave both in the execution of the game plan and their conduct 
    on and off the field.  By the time they left the profession of football, 
    most of them knew what it was he was trying to teach them.
    
    And as I said before, it doesn't reduce my appreciation of sport to
    know who the good guys and the bad guys are, just as in any other
    walk of life.
    
    glenn
       

 John, we're not in violent disagreement.  (And, in fact, I'd drop the
 argument completely before it ever came to that.)  I applaud your ideals.  
 But Glenn and I are thinking alike on this issue.   Who is to say what
 constitutes "taunting" ???   If it's the NFL, they're showing some holes
 in their argument.
 
 How about the quick little rapid fire Old West "pistol shots" that I've
 seen both Phil Simms and Randall Cunningham do after they've thrown a
 touchdown ???   Isn't that taunting a little bit ???
 
 And what about the old venerable "spike" ???   I saw Eric Green, the
 Steelers' massive tight end, spike one so hard on MNF one night that
 Dierdorf wondered aloud if that ball would *ever* come back down.   Isn't
 that taunting ???
 
 How about wide receivers who dunk the ball over the crossbar ???   Or guys
 who spin it like a toy top and then point at it ???
 
 It seems to me that the NFL has a big problem with dancing.   They
 outlawed Gastineau's thing, ridiculous as it was.   Now Ickey's silly
 boogie is toast.   I've seen the refs throw flags at the Eagles' Byron
 Evans who goes into some kind of a stupid funky chicken dance whenever he
 does something remotely spectacular like actually tackle a runner short of
 the first down marker.
 
 Why dancing and not some of the other expressions ???   It seems
 hypocritical to me to get all torqued up over one form of expression but
 ignore others, doesn't it ???    
 
 This is sorta like the Jesse Helms-NEA debate in a way.  Helms is angry
 that federal funds pay for what he calls obscene art.   I'd rather Helms
 focus on why taxpayers pay for art of *any* type.   Don't cloud the issue
 with the "obscene" twist.  Either subsidize art or don't.  In the NFL's
 case, either forbid all forms of expression or none of them.  Don't just
 pick on dancing.   But, admittedly, the NFL would disappoint me if it ever
 did the right thing so I guess I'm happy with this latest boo-boo.  :-)
 
 Bob Hunt

    	Rich, you want to talk taunting then go to a hockey game in
    person.  It doesn't always happen after a goal, and it's not always
    caught on camera, but hockey players do this best.  At least that's
    what I saw a lot of during last year's playoffs.  Hell at least
    half the fights are a response to taunting.
    
    				/Don

    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time... :-)
    
    I've heard a few reports in the last couple days that the Toronto
    Argonauts have offered (will offer?) Rocket Ismail a two-year, $6
    million contract...any north of the border noters have any close-up
    info on this?
    
    
    py

    John, I make a distinction between a guy who celebrates a TD away from
    the opponents, and one who flaunts it in the opponents face (Mark G.)
    
    Come on, has anyone ever believed for one minute that Billy Johnson
    ever was taunting the other special teams unit when he broke one of his
    patented returns ? Hell no. He was much more likely to get drilled on
    the play. If you do something special, the you should be allowed to
    party.
    
    Anyone who has played any type of organized football on any level has 
    probably been on both ends of the stick. I have. If you stay out of the
    other guys face, and don't turn it into a three-part production, then
    there won't be a problem. If there is, then somebody needs thicker
    skin.
    
    Some of Sanders' actions seem to be designed to infuriate the
    opposition - that stuff you flag. The rest of it ? Hell, let it go,
    it's fun. Icky, Butch Johnson, the Fun Bunch - they are as much a part
    of the game as the TD - don't penalize them, penalize the jerks.
    
    And remember this - the NFL tends to be a self-policing organization
    among players. You show someone up, and payback is usually swift and
    unmistakable. 
    
    It's time to give the players a little credit .... 

    >                    -< I Believe in Sportsmanship >-
    
    I believe in Individuality, Expression, Personality, Exuberance,
    Exhilaration and Sportsmanship.
    
    Dan

re .325:  just somewhat sceptical reporting of rumours in Ottawa papers.

Today's Ottawa Sun had CFL commissioner Don Crump commenting on the
speculation, and the CFL's $3million-per-season "operations cap":

"Did they sign him?  What's the problem?  You guys (media) are always making
cases before there's any evidence," said CFL commissioner Don Crump yesterday.

"I suppose it's similar to (B.C. quarterback Doug) Flutie," said Crump.  "If
you can get the No. 1 draft pick in the NFL to come in the CFL, I suppose
you'll find a way to do that (work around the salary cap).

"Nobody can afford to pay anybody in this league $3 million a year.  If Mr.
McNall sees a way to be able to market that talent, all the power to him.  But
there is an economic limit to what you can pay a football player."

I'd like to see 1 player say F**k Y** to the NFL rule and toss the ball into the
stands after every TD he scores during a season. So what if it's a $500 fine.
These guys can afford it.

If I was a coach I'd let them dance their hearts out as long as it was on the
sidelines after the play was over. I don't think the choreographed routines have
any place on the field but who is it hurting to do these things on the sideline?

The crowd likes it, the players doing it seem to enjoy it and it leads to big
fun on arsenio and Star search :-)

Heck, If I was a coach this year and I was on the winning end of a blowout I'd 
let my team dance on the sidelines and incur the penalty just to show up the 
NFL.

I'll be surprised if Sam Wyche doesn't let Ickey do the shuffle at least once
this year.....


Metz

    
    	If I was a coach, I'd sit their ass down for showing somebody
    	up (either dancing in the end zone or lipping off after making
    	a good hit).  I have no problem with congratulating each other
    	after a good play but there is no room some of the classless
    	crap I've seen (ie Miami Hurricane bump-n-grind stuff).
    
    	However, I don't think the league should police this.  If a
    	player/team doesn't like being shown up, deal with it.  Take
    	baseball for instance.  If a guy hits a dinger and taunts the
    	pitcher, he can just about bet everything that he'll see some
    	chin music next time up.
    
    	Claybroon

    Quick question:
    
    Can you name the player who first did the end zone dances??
    
    Extra Credit: Who did he play for???
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Billy "White Shoes" ?
    
    Detriot?
    

    nope
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Who is the first spiked ball attributed to?
    
    JD

    re.337
    Nope
    
    JaKe
    

 First end zone dance was Elmo Wright, a wide receiver for the Kansas City
 Chiefs.   Early 1970s.
 
 Bob Hunt

    re.340
    
    BINGO!!!!
    
    Scored a TD and then sort of "Ran in Place".
    
    JaKe
    

    I'm in agreement that some sort of celebration is appropriate.  I agree
    that it is more up to the coaches to control their players.  I agree
    that some sort of line must be drawn between an "appropriate"
    celebration and an "inappropriate" celebration but I don't know how or
    where to draw it.  I believe it must be drawn in such a way that an
    inappropriate celebration is one that "shows up" a member of the
    opposition, but I don't know how to do it.  I do believe it must be
    done, not just in the interests of sportsmanship, but in the interest
    of preventing a really ugly incident someday.
    
    John

I would think it's very situational.

Personally, I think all these choreographed dance routines are kind
of stupid.

But, I've got no problem with someone who exuberantly celebrates
scoring a TD.  If it's a TD with :02 left, to win the game, why
the entire place has a right to go nuts.


But, in the second quarter, when you score a TD that puts you
up by 20 points, it's kind of silly to do the Bugaloo Mosh Shuffle...

JMHO,
'Saw

 Now here's another of my typically cynical anti-NFL thoughts ...
 
 The NFL, in its infinite wisdom, took the 1993 Super Bowl away from the
 city of Phoenix because the state of Arizona voted against celebrating
 Martin Luther King, Jr Day.
 
 And instead they awarded the game to the city of Pasadena which is really
 just a municipality within the city of Los Angeles ... whose police force
 was just videotaped beating the holy crap out of a black man.
 
 Nicely done, Tags.  It's a big no-no not to take a day off from work to
 honor a black man but it's okay for cops to beat another one up.
 
 Sigh.
 
 Bob Hunt

 > Nicely done, Tags.  It's a big no-no not to take a day off from work to
 > honor a black man but it's okay for cops to beat another one up.
    
    C'mon, Bob, do you really believe this stuff when you write it?  The
    first case is a matter of public policy decided on by the state and its
    government as part of an official process.  The second is the
    manifestation of renegade cops in a runaway department where heads are
    already rolling, and will continue to roll as the scope of this thing
    is uncovered.
    
    I can accept your previous arguments of how it's none of the NFL's
    business anyway, but there's a big difference between racism still
    being present all around us versus it being institutionalized.  I'm not
    saying that's necessarily what has happened in Arizona, but that's the 
    perception and the logic behind the NFL's actions.
    
    glenn
     

    All this discussion on dancing couldn't help but remind me of the "In
    Living Color" episode a couple weeks ago. Anybody see it?  This one had
    a football team in suspiciously Raider-like uniforms getting chewed out 
    by the coach because they weren't in synch in their touchdown dance. The 
    team was 10 and 0, but the dance routines were "disgraceful," so in comes 
    a professional correographer of dubious sexual orientation, to teach them
    how to dance. At the end of the skit, one player says "We never won
    another game, but we really looked good when we danced" 
    
    Seriously rollward!!
    
    Tom

    	Bob, if the NFL didn't play Super Bowls where police beat the
    crap out of minorities they would have to cancel the event for lack
    of facilities.
    
    				/Don

 Re: The "In Living Color" Raiders touchdown dancing skit ...
 
 That's the first time I watched that show and I was rolling big time after
 that skit.  That was hilarious.   The limp wristed dance coach on the
 sidelines was too funny.
 
 Re: The LA police thing and the Super Bowl
 
 I did, in fact, preface that statement by saying here comes another of my
 typically cynical statements.  
 
 Of course, the NFL's actions against Phoenix was a reaction against
 Arizona state policy.   And, of course, the LA police brutality is
 basically an "accident" (not the actual violence itself but the hidden
 taping of it and now the national attention drawn to it).
 
 So what ???   I'm just simply pointing out that the NFL once again *looks*
 hypocritical.  Whether by accident or on purpose, the hypocrisy is still
 there.   Nix nix on Phoenix and hip-hip-hooray for LA.
 
 Think about it ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    re .338
    
    Otis Taylor, KC Chiefs was the first of the Spikers ...
    His teammate Elmo Wright was the inventor of the dance .....

    Wrong Doc - way off with Otis Taylor. 
    
    JD

    ...and guess who's offices were OPEN on Martin Luther King Day.
                                            Denny

 NFL Film INC. Steve Sabol and gang present to "George Bush my Personal Super
 Bowl"...

 Seems NFL films has been in Saudia the whole time and will soon be releasing
 a bockbuster video of the war complete with voice over football terms, inter-
 views with the boys, declassified miltary offensives put to music and what not.

 Now ain't this just peachy. War's cool now!!! A necessary evil. might makes
 right....

 I'm sick. I know I'll never be able to stop watching the games but I will never
 buy another NFL properites paraphanelia again...

 mike

    
    I read that NFL Films thing too, Mike.
    
    With the advancements in media coverage just since the Viet Nam
    "conflict," there is bound to be plenty of coverage that can eventually
    be put together to kind of tell the story; a kind of documentary with
    perhaps a little historical perspective; the creation of a permanent
    record of a piece of history.
    
    To use this information and technology to create an NFL Films-type
    production complete with macho voiceover, marching music, 'The Ride of
    the Valkyries', the football analogies is irresponsible and ludicrous.
    
    Geez, can we expect a follow-up of NFL Films' "Desert Storm's Most
    Bone-crunching Hits" or "Gulf War Follies" featuring hilarious goofs
    and gaffes?  Tsk tsk.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
 -< Paul Tsongas in '92! >-
                          
    For What!!???
    
    Rich
    

          <<< Note 5.357 by IMBACQ::SZABO "Embedded in fantasy..." >>>
        -< I'd vote for Tsongas in a flash.  A very intelligent man... >-

   

    Mike C:
    
    According to what I read, you are off base.  Some leader of some Peace
    group came out and lambasted Sabol for the same reasons you did.  He
    said the film will not be anything like what is seen on NFL hilites.
    
    To paraphrase Sabol:  No slow motion shots of scuds, no slow motion
    pictures of hovering helicopters, no voiceover narratives in the ilk of
    "ON the bone-chilling barren desert field, the offensive marches...."
    type stuff.
    
    In reality, Sabol and the crew of NFL films have produced a number of
    non-sports-related documentaries and videos - some have been
    award-winning, and do not follow the NFL film format.
    
    And enough with the glorification of war crap - as long as there has
    been movie-making capabilities, there have been war movies/videos. 
    WWII has some of the best documentary films around:  "Victory At Sea"
    comes to mind immediately.  
    
    JD

 Well JD the proof will be in the pudding. Of course I see it one way and
 you and others will see it another. That shits already been proven no need
 to attend that rathole again. 

 Where you get off calling my account BS and yours' the truth is beyond me.
 Like Sabol never told a lie in his life. Like George Bush didn't call it
 his own SuperBowl...

 mike



 

    
    NFL Films is a production company.  They were contracted to do the
    documentary filming for the war.  There is a demand, they filled it.  
    So what?  There will be no association with football, and you won't 
    be seeing war footage mixed in with the highlights of the Giants 
    march to the Super Bowl or anything like that.  I don't think they'll 
    be showing "Desert Storm" highlights during televised halftime shows 
    next fall, either.
    
    Once you get past the name of the production company, there's really
    nothing too unusual about this.  I'm not going to run out and buy it,
    but that's got nothing to do with the NFL...
    
    glenn
     

    Mike,
    
    My account is going on the report I read - which was basically Sabol
    responding to someone making the same charges that you did.  The other
    documentaries NFL films does (non-sports) do not follow the NFL films
    style.  All I did was try to point out that just because NFL Films is
    doing it, it won't be "Gulf War Follies" or that ilk.
    
    What is blatent glorification of war is the trading cards, and all the
    books and magazines, etc., that are out.  I was in a book store
    yesterday and it's amazing how many books there are - including picture
    books - of this war.
    
    JD

Any film documentary of war treads a fine line.  On the one hand,
it can be termed the glorification of war, on the other hand,
I'm a firm believer in that saying "he who is ignorant of history
is condemned to repeat it" (why does the name Espinosa come to mind.
Is that who said that?)


Anyway, I've caught a few episodes of Vietnam - The 10000 Days War.
That's not a bad series.  Pretty informative.

I've watched all of Victory at Sea.  Some impressive footage in
that documentary, especially from a photographic point of view.

Caught a very small part of the PBS Civil War documentary.  Again,
quite informative.


If NFL films can do a good job with this, then it could rank up
there with those.  If not, well, who knows what we'll get...


Actually, since it's now outlawed, I think NFL films should compile
a taunting-celebration tape, and call it the NFL Dance Fever Video.
Since we won't be seeing it on the field this year, we'll have to
get our dose elsewhere.....8^)


'Saw

    Monty Python's Holy Grail is also a very well-done, informative look at
    King Arthur.  
    
    	--dan'l

 I *love* history documentaries.   
 
 Two of the best I've ever seen is Ken Burns' "The Civil War" which, during
 its' first run last fall, was the hottest thing ever shown on PBS and
 another one done in 1963, I believe, called "The Guns Of August" from
 Barbara Tuchman's book of the same name.   It dealt with the events of
 August 1914 which kicked off World War I.
 
 "Victory At Sea" and "The Second World War" are also excellent.
 
 I would be skeptical of NFL Films' ability to produce a true "Desert
 Storm" documentary from a scholarly viewpoint but I don't deny them the
 chance to try.  As JD pointed out, there's already a lot of "pulp" stuff
 out there that's designed solely for quick profits and have little to do
 with any kind of historical scholarship.   If NFL Films can upgrade the
 quality of the genre, more power to them.   If not, they ain't gettin' my
 cash.
 
 Another reason for skepticism in any venture right now to get "Desert
 Storm" on the record is that it's just too fresh.  The "echoes" of this
 event haven't even begun to fade away yet and I, for one, don't believe
 good historical analysis can begin on such an event like this until a
 significant period of time has passed.
 
 Bob Hunt

> Another reason for skepticism in any venture right now to get "Desert
> Storm" on the record is that it's just too fresh.  The "echoes" of this
> event haven't even begun to fade away yet and I, for one, don't believe
> good historical analysis can begin on such an event like this until a
> significant period of time has passed.
 
In one sense, this is a double edged sword....

I'm currently plowing throught "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich".
(I switch off to Twain's "The Innocents Abroad" when I get too overpowered
by that Nazi sh_t).

Anyway, Shirer said that one of the things that helped him do the
book was the fact that immediately after the war he had total access
to a lot of stuff that never had a chance to be buried.  I don't think
Shirer could have written the book he did if he'd waited five years.

So, too soon and like you say you're sometimes TOO CLOSE.  But
after time, important relevant information can be hidden....

On the other hand, Desert Storm is slightly different, because we
didn't conquor a nation....


'Saw

 Good point, 'Saw.  Shirer is an excellent writer.   He does an excellent
 job of placing you right smack in the middle of the Nazi era.
 
 Hey, Dan'l, funny you should bring up "The Holy Grail".  Whatta riot of a
 movie.   Nexted time you see my kids, I'll have them do the "What is your
 name, what is your quest, what is your favorite color?" routine.
 
 Bob Hunt

          <<< Note 5.338 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "Kenya Roools again" >>>

   > Who is the first spiked ball attributed to?
    
    Don King?

    
    This is the official list, released by the NFL of unconditional free 
    agents that changed teams under the Plan B system.
    
    Atlanta Falcons (6):  Naz Worthen, wr, Chiefs
                          Jeff Donaldson, s, Chiefs
                          Jason Phillips, wr, Lions
                          Harper Le Bel, te, Eagles
                          Benji Roland, dl, Buccaneers
                          Tracey Eaton, s, Cardinals
    
    Buffalo Bills (2):    David Bavaro, lb, Cardinals
                          Brent Tucker, ss, Houston
                         
    Cinci. Bengals (1):   Alex Gordon, lb, Raiders
    
    Cleav. Browns (11):   Charles Arbuckle, te, Saints
                          John Rienstra, og, Steelers
                          Matt Stover, k, Giants
                          Rob Woods, ot, Chiefs
                          Vince Newsome, s, Rams
                          Richard Brown, lb, Chargers
                          David Brandon, lb, Chargers
                          Brian Hanson, p, Patriots
                          Mike Lansford, k, Rams
                          Todd Philcox, qb, Bengals
                          Lee Rouston, rb, Giants
    
    Dallas Cowboys (4):   Odie Harris, db, Bucanneers
                          Craig Hudson, te, Packers
                          Alfredo Roberts, te, Chiefs
                          Alan Veingrad, t, Packers
    
    Denver Broncos (3):   Charles Dimry, cb, Falcons
                          Crawford Ker, g, Cowboys
                          Robert Perryman, rb, Cowboys
    
    Detroit Lions (5):    Michael Graybill, dt, Cardinals
                          Melvin Jenkins, cb, Seahawks
                          Frank Pillow, wr, Bucanneers
                          Eugene Riley, te, Colts
                          Sean Vanhorse, cb, Dolphins
    
    G.B. Packers (13):    Roland Mitchell, cb, Falcons
                          Louis Cheek, ol, Eagles
                          Kurt Larson, lb, Colts
                          Allen Rice, rb, Vikings
                          Mike Tomczak, qb, Bears
                          Ventson Donelson, cb, Patriots
                          Derrick Douglas, rb, Bucanneers
                          Greg Clark, lb, Rams
                          Glen Derby, t, Saints
                          Tim Hauck, db, Patriots
                          Scott Jones, dl, Jets
                          Brian Kinchen, te, Dolphins
                          Vai Sikahema, rb-kr, Cardinals
    
    Houston Oilers (7):   Rick Graf, lb, Dolphins
                          Richard Johnson, wr, Lions
                          John Hagy, s, Bills
                          Robert Banks, de, Browns
                          Eric Bergeson, db, Falcons
                          Cedric Jones, wr, Patriots
                          Kerry Porter, rb, Broncos
    
    Indian. Colts (2):    Travis Davis, t, Saints
                          Cedric Figaro, lb, Chargers
                   
    K.C. Chiefs (7):      Richard Bell, rb, Steelers
                          Pete Holohan, te, Rams
                          Marc Munford, lb, Broncos
                          Troy Sadowski, te, Falcons
                          Ricky Shaw, lb, Eagles
                          Troy Stradford, rb, Dolphins
                          Mark Vlasic, qb, Chargers
    
    L.A. Raiders (7):     Roger Craig, rb, 49'ers
                          Ronnie Lott, db, 49'ers
                          Stefon Adams, wr, Dolphins
                          O'Brien Alston, lb, Colts
                          Vencie Glenn, s, Chargers
                          Bruce Klostermann, lb, Rams
                          Joel Patten, t, Chargers
    
    L.A. Rams (7):        Sammy Lilly, cb, Chargers
                          Gerald Robinson, de, Chargers
                          Glenell Sanders, lb, Bears
                          Rodney Thomas, db, Dolphins
                          Karl Wilson, de, Dolphins
                          Tony Zendejas, k, Oilers
                          Mosi Tatupu, rb, Patriots
    
    Miami Dolphins (5):   Louis Cooper, lb, Chiefs
                          Ned Bolcar, lb, Seahawks
                          Don Smith, rb, Bills
                          Terry Price, de, Bears
                          Eric Sievers, te, Patriots
    
    Minn. Vikings (9):    Mike Hammerstein, dt, Bengals
                          Greg Manusky, lb, Redskins
                          Carl Mims, cb, Bills
                          Jamie Morris, rb, Patriots
                          James Pruitt, wr, Dolphins
                          Mark Vanderbeek, lb, Colts
                          Wayne Walker, wr, Chargers
                          Soloman Wilcots, s, Bengals
                          Felix Wright, s, Browns
    
    N.E. Patriots (3):    Ivy Joe Hunter, rb, Colts
                          Victor Jones, rb, Oilers
                          Hugh Millen, qb, Falcons
                            
    N.O. Saints (5):      Quinn Early, wr, Chargers
                          Brent Griffith, g, Bills
                          Tim Manoa, rb, Browns
                          Les Miller, de, Chargers
                          Pat Newman, wr, Vikings
                                                 
    N.Y, Giants (2):      Thom Kuaymeyer, s, Seahawks
                          James Milling, wr, Falcons
    
    N.Y. Jets (5):        John Bosa, de, Dolphins
                          Mike Brim, cb, Vikings
                          Bobby Houston, lb, Oilers
                          R.J. Kors, s, Seahawks
                          Bill Pickel, dt, Raiders
    
    Phil. Eagles (2):     John Booty, db, Jets
                          Dennis McKnight, ol, Chargers
    
    Phnx. Cardinals (5):  Sidney Coleman, lb, Bucanneers
                          Greg Davis, k, Falcons
                          Jeff Faulkner, de, Colts
                          Derek Hill, wr, Steelers
                          Tyronne Stowe, lb, Steelers
                          
    Pitts. Steelers (2):  Rob McGovern, lb, Chiefs
                          Willie Wyatt, dl, Bucanneers
    
    S.D. Chargers (8):    Darren Carrington, cb, Lions
                          Bob Gagliano, qb, Lions
                          Bobby Humphrey, db, Rams
                          Troy Kyles, wr, Giants
                          Mark May, ot, Redskins
                          Chris Pike, dt, Browns
                          Harry Swayne, t, Bucanneers
                          Garland Thaxton, lb, Falcons
    
    S.F. 49'ers (8):      Steve Brown, cb, Oilers
                          Roy Foster, g, Dolphins
                          Darrin Jordan, lb, Raiders
                          Dave Whitmore, db, Giants
                          Todd Bowles, s, Redskins
                          Chris Washington, lb, Cardinals
                          Stanley Blair, db, Cardinals
                          Jeroy Robinson, lb, Cardinals
    
    Seat. Seahawks (2):   Marcus Cotton, lb, Browns
                          Kevin Thompson, s, Eagles
    
    T.B. Bucanneers (4):  Jamie Lawson, fb, Patriots
                          William Frizzell, db, Eagles
                          Marlon Jones, dt, Browns
                          Derrell Robertson, t, Lions
    
    Wash. Redskins (4):   Terry Hoage, s, Eagles
                          John Settle, rb, Falcons
                          Danny Copeland, db, Chiefs
                          Matt Millen, lb, 49'ers
    
    
    Carlos
    

Let's start off by saying that I like the run-n-shoot offense, but have not 
personally seen a detailed analysis.  So I have a few questions about it. 
(This outa catch me some flak real quick :-) )

Some of the things obvious even to me:
1) The concept of 4 WR on every down is going to put a lot of pressure on the
average NFL defense because most defensive backfields are just not geared up
to handle it consistently.  Most NFL offenses place a more emphasis on a
ground game, and you have to have the personal to stop that also. 

2) With the offensive emphasis on passing, the defensive line is going to tee
off on the QB.  Since the R&S has fewer potential blockers in the backfield,
the obvious compensation is to go to a quick rhythm passing game ie. a 5 step
drop. 

3) The well documented shortcoming of the R&S is the inability to run when
you have to.  You can run when the D is expecting the pass, but with fewer
blockers, the D can stop the run if that is all it wants to do. 

4) The concept of counting defenders at the line is obvious.  5 OL blocking 5
DL/LB is going to consistently generate good running yardage.  Most NFL
defenses counter a running game by bringing up a safety and having 1 more
defender than blockers. 


Now for the questions:
1) With the emphasis on passing, the QB has a more important role in the game.
But why does the QB have more options?  (RE Joe Theisman commentary)

2) Why done the DL need to play a reactionary role?  Most of time they
maintain their position instead of aggressively rushing the QB. 

3) How much of a role does the RB have in the passing game?  Or does he always
stay in to block?  Does the quick rhythm prevent him from getting out into a
decent patter? 

4) To me, one of the advantages of the R&S is more effective personal
coverage.  2 positions (WR, RB) vs. 4 positions (WR, RB, FB, TE).  Fewer 2nd
string players could adequately cover the positions.  You don't need to carry
8 WR for example, because only 4 can play and 4 injuries at the same position
is very unlikely.  However, I have heard of teams carrying 4 WR, 2 TE, 4
RB/FB, all needed to cover the different formations.  Wouldn't this allow the
team to say, give an extra roster position to the defense or special teams? 

5) When the R&S has to run, why not bring both RB into the formation?  Or are 
RB that bad at blocking?


In the recent draft news, Detroit is going to a modified R&S: 3 WR, TE, RB.
1) Sounds like the Charger offense during its heyday.  How different will it 
be?

2) Obviously, Detroit hopes to be able to increase the ground game without 
sacrificing to much from the passing game.  In the extreme, they are now 
capable of the formation: 1 WR, 2 TE, 2 RB.  How much will this increase 
their ability to run to protect a lead?


Commander Scott

 � 1) With the emphasis on passing, the QB has a more important role in
 � the game. But why does the QB have more options?  (RE Joe Theisman
 � commentary)
 
 I usually don't pay attention to Theismann but his point here is
 justified.   Not only can the quarterback take the short quick drop
 that you mentioned but he can also take a long one if he wants to. 
 And he's supposed to have the speed and mobility to roll out to
 either side.   And with 4 wide receivers all running a dizzying
 selection of routes, he's got a mind boggling menu of choices.

 � 2) Why done the DL need to play a reactionary role?  Most of time
 � they maintain their position instead of aggressively rushing the QB. 
 
 They don't necessarily have to.  But the secondary is just about
 forced into single coverage on every play.   An aggressive rush is
 going to force the quarterback to get rid of it even quicker. 
 Sometimes that exposes a defensive back who hasn't quite gotten a
 lock on his man just yet.   If the line holds back a bit or maybe
 rushes with looping stunts, it forces the quarterback to hold the
 ball just a split second longer which might give the backs a little
 more time to stick to their assignments.

 � 3) How much of a role does the RB have in the passing game?  Or does
 � he always stay in to block?  Does the quick rhythm prevent him from
 � getting out into a decent patter? 
 
 Not much, I don't think.   You don't see Barry Sanders or any of the
 Houston backs anywhere close to the top of the receivers' lists. 
 Having a Barry Sanders available makes the run-and-shoot that much
 more dangerous since he can really keep a defense off balance but
 he's not in there to catch the ball.
 
 I'm not an expert in the run-and-shoot.  It still looks like a
 gimmick to me, although a scary one since it can put up numbers in a
 big hurry.  But the Jints showed (yet again) that good old-fashioned
 smash mouth football on both sides of the line is going to win the
 championship much more often.
 
 Hate to be a Doubting Thomas, but I'll sing holy praises for the
 run-and-shoot when it produces something a little more worthwhile
 than a can full of spectacular highlight films.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I think the R&S will prove itself this season or else go into the
    history books.   And I think it has a good chance of surviving because
    Houston should win the AFC central...however, this may be due to the
    lack of divisional competition rather than the prowess of the R&S
    offense.
    
    	--dan'l

    re: last 2
    
    I will have to admit some bias toward the Run-n-Shoot.  After growing up
    in University of Michigan and Detroit territory, two things things were
    ingrained in me during my formitive years: 
    
    1) A non-passing offense  ==  inability to win big games.  Bo
    Schiembecker (never could spell his name) would have right fit in with
    Dean.
    
    2) The Detroit Lions will never be great at anything.  My personal
    opinion is that they never will at least as long as old man Ford owns
    the team.  A few years ago the Detroit citizens had a started petion to
    rename the team to the Pontiac Pussycats.
    
    So I tend to dicount any evaluation of the R&S based on the Lions.  And
    I tend to view the Giants SB wins as an offense that waited for the
    defense to win the game.
    
    Commander Scott
    

I disagree.

In order to win at football, you have to possess the ball.  An offense like
the Giants, while boring to some (hi Dan 8^)) maximizes ball possession.

An offense like the R&S takes an awful lot of chances with possession of the
ball.  In fact, while I agree that the Lions don't execute very well,  in the
few games that I saw them in, they play and awful lot of three downs and punt.

If you look back at some of the greatest teams ever, passing was an
adjunct to the run....


JMHO,
'Saw


PS  What else would you expect from a rugger, because we're always being
    yelled at about ball possession 8^)

> Some of the things obvious even to me:
> 1) The concept of 4 WR on every down is going to put a lot of pressure on the
> average NFL defense because most defensive backfields are just not geared up
> to handle it consistently.  Most NFL offenses place a more emphasis on a
> ground game, and you have to have the personal to stop that also. 

    Quite true. Most teams do not have 4 men who can cover a quick wideout
    in man to man coverage. Usually, we're talking mismatches galore ...
    
> 2) With the offensive emphasis on passing, the defensive line is going to tee
> off on the QB.  Since the R&S has fewer potential blockers in the backfield,
> the obvious compensation is to go to a quick rhythm passing game ie. a 5 step
> drop. 

    Well, yes and no.
    
    Yes, the DL can tee off at the QB. But remember that you still can run
    draw plays and quick screens to devastating effect. 
    
    Take a look at this :
    
               X       X
                      
         X         X           X     
    X         X  X   X  X           X  
    O          O O O O O            O
         0         O          0
    
                   O
    
    Now the distances are not completely to scale, but you can see what
    happens if a DL just blows in recklessly. The secondary have to chase
    receivers around the field, many of them have to have their backs to
    the line of scrimmage. That may leave 2 or three men, who are spread
    out, to keep an eye on a running back. And God help them if the QB has
    any mobility (ie. Warren Moon, or Rodney Peete) ....
    
    And most the R&S patterns are quick timing patterns, so any strong pass
    rush must generate pressure from inside, because a blitzing LB will
    have a lot of problems getting to the QB in time. 
    
    However, the lack of a strong blocking RB can be a problem (Barry Sanders'
    only major weakness is that a LB can jump over him - of course he poses
    such a multi-purpose threat, that he can cancel that out in large
    part.)
    
> 3) The well documented shortcoming of the R&S is the inability to run when
> you have to.  You can run when the D is expecting the pass, but with fewer
> blockers, the D can stop the run if that is all it wants to do. 

    Actually, I feel the R&S has it's biggest problems inside the opponents
    20 yard line, where a smaller field means less field to spead a defense
    out, and hence requires better execution. 
    
    With regards to your contention, that can be said of any offense. To
    me, the R&S is fantastic for short yardage because of the fact that
    the defense can not insert 5 to 7 300 pound lineman, and line them up
    shoulder to shoulder. What it comes down to is comittment. Committment
    on the part of the offense to throw at any time, in running and passing
    situations.
    
> 4) The concept of counting defenders at the line is obvious.  5 OL blocking 5
> DL/LB is going to consistently generate good running yardage.  Most NFL
> defenses counter a running game by bringing up a safety and having 1 more
> defender than blockers. 

    Good point. In the R&S, the "count zone" is crucial. If the defense
    wants to overpower the count zone (ie. Outnumber the OL within 5 yards
    of the ball), then the QB must either pass (since it also means that
    there will be, *at best* 6 pass defenders vs. 4 or 5 receivers - can
    you say man-to-man coverage ?) to burn it, or hit an overload with a
    trap play, for example ...
    

> Now for the questions:
> 1) With the emphasis on passing, the QB has a more important role in the game.
> But why does the QB have more options?  (RE Joe Theisman commentary)

    Because each receiver has a min. of 4 different pass options per play.
    The QB gets three reads to make (when he walks up to the line, while
    the WR is in motion, and right after the snap), making it hard for a D
    to disguise itself, and the QB can roll either way, or take a short
    drop. And of course he can call an audible.
    
    Which is also why teams making the transistion to the R&S stuggle
    bigtime at first.
    
> 2) Why done the DL need to play a reactionary role?  Most of time they
> maintain their position instead of aggressively rushing the QB. 

    Beacuse the play could be a run. Wanna see a DL look silly ? Watch him
    get smoked on a screen or draw. Wanna see a DL get his bell rung ?
    Watch him get trap-blecked while blasting in at full speed.
    
    And a lot of teams pull a LB (at least) against a R&S, so that is less
    support for that poor DL.
    
> 3) How much of a role does the RB have in the passing game?  Or does he always
> stay in to block?  Does the quick rhythm prevent him from getting out into a
> decent patter? 

    It depends on the team. At UH, the backs catch up to 10 passes a game.
    The Oilers get the ball to their backs more than the Lions do. It is a
    matter a style. I don't know if people notice, but the Lions and the
    Oilers are two very different R&S teams. And a lot of it is due to the
    fact that the Oilers have 6 awesome receivers, and teh Lions have
    Barry.
    
> 4) To me, one of the advantages of the R&S is more effective personal
> coverage.  2 positions (WR, RB) vs. 4 positions (WR, RB, FB, TE).  Fewer 2nd
> string players could adequately cover the positions.  You don't need to carry
> 8 WR for example, because only 4 can play and 4 injuries at the same position
> is very unlikely.  However, I have heard of teams carrying 4 WR, 2 TE, 4
> RB/FB, all needed to cover the different formations.  Wouldn't this allow the
> team to say, give an extra roster position to the defense or special teams? 

    Again, a matter of taste. In fact, the Oilers DO carry 8 WR's.
    Remember, you need extras for practice, if nothing else. They carry no
    TE's and 3 RB's. So I don't think they take advantage of that extra
    player or two ...
    
> 5) When the R&S has to run, why not bring both RB into the formation?  Or are 
> RB that bad at blocking?

    Depends on the back. I think that Alonzo Highsmith (if healthy) would
    have been near-illegal in the R&S, beacause he was such a devastating
    blocker.
    
    From what I hear, the Lions will try a R&S with a TE. Sounds good to
    me, because of the extra angle that could bring. Sending a TE in
    motion, gives him some pretty good blocking angles, but it also means
    that you need some real talent at TE. I'd love to see a Keith Jackson
    or Eric Green in the R&S.
    
    Of course the ultimate R&S TE would have been Kellen Winslow ....
    

> In the recent draft news, Detroit is going to a modified R&S: 3 WR, TE, RB.
> 1) Sounds like the Charger offense during its heyday.  How different will it 
> be?
    
    Is the TE another Kellen Winslow ? There's your answer ....
    
> 2) Obviously, Detroit hopes to be able to increase the ground game without 
> sacrificing to much from the passing game.  In the extreme, they are now 
> capable of the formation: 1 WR, 2 TE, 2 RB.  How much will this increase 
> their ability to run to protect a lead?

    Just remember that before the R&S, Detroit had precious few leads to
    protect in the first place. Not only that, but Barry Sanders ran wild
    in the R&S. IMO, it seems that defenses will find it easier to stack
    themselves to stop Barry in more conventional offenses ... I wonder if
    they will just rob Peter to pay Paul. :-)
    
    Bottom line for the Lions is simple - they need some competent WR's. To
    me, that was a bigger problem than anything.
                                                
    Doc

    
    re Saw (and Bob Hunt)
    
> I disagree.

> In order to win at football, you have to possess the ball.  An offense like
> the Giants, while boring to some (hi Dan 8^)) maximizes ball possession.

> An offense like the R&S takes an awful lot of chances with possession of the
> ball.  In fact, while I agree that the Lions don't execute very well,  in the
> few games that I saw them in, they play and awful lot of three downs and punt.
    
    Saw, The Oilers led the NFL in first downs, and ranked high in ToP. I
    know that the S.B. was seized upon as a victory for smash-mouth over
    lighting, but I also know that if not for a Roger Craig fumble, or if
    Norwood's kick had been 1 yard to the left, your contention would be
    void.
    
    Bottom line, IMO, your offense has to EXECUTE. I don't give a damn if
    they are playing single wing, run and shoot, wishbone, drop kick, or
    whatever ... the Giants played ball control and defense, and won
    because they did it very well. For every team like that, there are 10
    that get wiped out.
    
    re .374

>    1) A non-passing offense  ==  inability to win big games.  Bo
>    Schiembecker (never could spell his name) would have right fit in with
>    Dean.
 
    No s**t !!!!! :-)
    
    Growing up in CA. and watching the Pac 8/10 kick Big 10 butt pretty
    consistently in Rose Bowls, I agree with you, and empathize with you.
       
>    2) The Detroit Lions will never be great at anything.  My personal
>    opinion is that they never will at least as long as old man Ford owns
>    the team.  A few years ago the Detroit citizens had a started petion to
>    rename the team to the Pontiac Pussycats.
 
    My Uncle Robert (a very loyal Lions fan) says the same thing.   
    
>    So I tend to dicount any evaluation of the R&S based on the Lions.
    
    Good idea. :-)  
    
>    And I tend to view the Giants SB wins as an offense that waited for the
>    defense to win the game.
 
    I wouldn't go quite that far, but I agree with the gist of that ...
       
    re Dan'l
    
    The Oilers could rack up the numbers, but had simple problems like WR's
    dropping balls inside the 20, a spotty running game, etc ...
    
    They should win the division, but they've broken my heart a few too
    many times - but I would hesitate to blam (tm) the R&S for any
    shortcommings ...

    
    re. Lions
    
    The Lions held a mini camp for the rookies that they drafted.
    Both Moore and Barrett performed very well.  They both commented
    that they liked the R&S.  They also caught anything and everything
    that was thrown at them.
    
    Comment from Ware of Peete was there isn't much difference between
    a 6' WR and a 5'8" WR.  There is a big difference between a 6'
    receiver and the 5'5" receivers they had last year.
    
    By the way Jerry Ball finally got his contract renegotiated.  He is
    now the highest paid nose tackle in the NFL.  His signing bonus
    was $900,000.  As one local sportscaster commented he is happy now
    until 4 nose tackles are getting paid more than he is and he wants
    to renegotiate the contract again.
    
    \pjb

    Maybe I was still sleeping, but I thought I heard on the radio this
    morning that Herschel Walker was found unconscious in his car with the
    motor running and the garage door closed.
    
    Any details?
    
    Mark.

    He said he was listening to a tape and fell asleep, claimed it wasn't a
    suicide attempt.  He cited exhaustion after a lot of travel.
    
    John

    The paper lasted night said that he was going to leave to go somewhere
    and started the car, WITH THE GARAGE DOOR CLOSED, and decided to listen
    to "his favorite song" which was playing at the time, before leaving.
    
    He says he musta fell asleep, and his wife found him.
    
    Either he is a moron or he was trying to do himself in.  Who, with half
    of a brain, starts their car before opening the garage door.  I think
    he probly had a fight with the mrs. and decided to check himself out.
    
    This is just my opinion, though.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    C'mon Jake, lotsa times I start my car, find my favorite song on a
    tape, and know that I won't be able to hear it if I open my garage
    door, so I just sit for a while.  Did you know that if you run a hose
    from your exhaust pipe into the interior of your car you can also get
    a dramatic improvement in the audio quality?

>         <<< Note 5.382 by LAGUNA::MAY_BR "Graphic sexual innuendo" >>>

    
>    C'mon Jake, lotsa times I start my car, find my favorite song on a
>    tape, and know that I won't be able to hear it if I open my garage
>    door, so I just sit for a while.  Did you know that if you run a hose
>    from your exhaust pipe into the interior of your car you can also get
>    a dramatic improvement in the audio quality?

    Seeing your reply, I rest my case that I stated in .381!!!
    
    (8^0*  (8^)*
    
    How long does it take for the audio quality to start increasing???
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

IF Walker is trying to kill himself he's a friggen looza! Jeesh, I'll
trade lives with him! Give me tha money and the grid iron anyday, I'm
sure he could learn how to use an oscilliscope fairly easy! 8^)


Steve

    Steve, you're making the assumption here that just because a person has
    money guarantees personal happiness.  You cannot equate the two.  I'm not
    saying the Walker was trying to bite the big one, but if he was, I'm
    quite sure his emotional problems are bigger than the potential loss of
    income and failure on the gridiron.
    
    If it is true, I truly hope he gets the help he needs.
    
    Mark.

    
    Skid(tm) , I was just kidding, although it is no laughing matter. I just
    can't see why any problem is worth killing yourself over. Herschel
    seems to be a religious man, I hope he can find the strength he needs
    to overcome his emotions, in his faith and his family, if that is
    the case. 
    
    
    Steve

I heard the the Cardnials #1 pick Eric Swann blew out his knee...

Any additional info. 

    Swann damaged his left knee in the first day of rookie camp but kept
    playing on it.  He didn't feel much pain (though other players said
    that they did hear an audible pop during the play he came up limping)
    until that evening when it swelled.
    
    He had cartelidge surgery the other day, but should probably be back
    toward the end of training camp. 
    
    I like his attitude.  He signed a contract right away and is ready to
    prove himself.  He sees this as just another challenge to his strage
    road to the pros.
    
    	--dan'l

    The Boston Globe's Will McDonough says that expansion and realignment
    is imminent in the NFL by 1993. Supposedly, there will be a radical change in
    the way the divisions are set up, and the confrences won't have much to
    so with anything anymore.The new divisions will be based more on
    geography than anything else (What about TV money? get real!) I know
    ther AFC is on NBC, and CBS has the NFC (and larger markets) so they'll
    have to be careful not to give one network a better setup. Anyway, if
    they are going to have geographical divisions (6five team divisions)
    this is how it might look:
    ATLANTIC  CENTRAL  GREAT LAKES  SOUTHEAST   SOUTHWEST   PACIFIC
    N.E.      Buff     Chicago      Atlanta     Dallas      L.A.
    N.Y.      Cinnc.   Detriot      Miami       Denver      L.A.
    N.Y.      Cleve.   Green Bay    N. Orleans  Houston     S.D.
    Phil.     Pitt.    Minn.        Tampa Bay   Kansas C.   S.F.
    Wash.      <---Indy--->         MEMPH/CHARL?  Phoenix   Seattle
    
    
    Obviously this has a lot to do with which cities are awarded expansion
    teams. 

    Because of TV, you almost certainly wouldn't see the Giants and Jets in
    the same conference, nor would the Rams and Raiders be in the same
    conference.
    
    John

 >>   ATLANTIC  CENTRAL  GREAT LAKES  SOUTHEAST   SOUTHWEST   PACIFIC
 >>   N.E.      Buff     Chicago      Atlanta     Dallas      L.A.
 >>   N.Y.      Cinnc.   Detriot      Miami       Denver      L.A.
 >>   N.Y.      Cleve.   Green Bay    N. Orleans  Houston     S.D.
 >>   Phil.     Pitt.    Minn.        Tampa Bay   Kansas C.   S.F.
 >>   Wash.      <---Indy--->         MEMPH/CHARL?  Phoenix   Seattle
    
Tom,

I spotted the deliberate mistake!!

Look for the Toronto Argonauts in one of the Central Divisions.

rick

    True, they are talking about the Argos joining the NFL, but that would
    surely mean the CFL foolding, which would be a shame. BTW, I agree it
    would screw up the TV pairings  if you put 2 teams from the same
    region/city in the same division,but that was waht McDonough was
    implying they'd do. Eddie DeBartolo said tat if it was in the best
    interests of the league, he'd move the 49ers into the AFC, for
    example.
    
    Tom

    Say it isn't so. The NFL with out the Giants, Redskins and Cowboys
    going at it against each other twice a year just won't be the same.

    Why mess with something that isn't broke.

Chuck

re .393

Interesting point, Tom on the end of the CFL.

It wouldn't be the end of football in Western Canada - maybe a couple of
WLAF franchises would come available or another NFL one could go somewhere 
like Vancouver.

I reckon the CFL has to go one day or another - it's too volatile what with
teams folding and forever switching around.

rick

       Heard a report on the nooze this morning that Bill Parcells is
    leaving the Gints to become a TeeVee star. Who's job is he going to
    take as #1 analyst?
                                  Denny

Actually, all I had heard was that he was leaving the Giants.  They hadn't
said that he was definitely going to be an analyst, but that he had recently
auditioned.

This is tough news for a Giants fan.  Parcells turned this team around,
(albeit working with George Young) when he came here.  Prior to his arrival
it had been the most hapless team I can ever remember.

Parcells was tired of coaching.  He said so many, many times during his
last year.

I wish him well, but really had hoped he'd stay on for his last year
of his contract....

oh well....

Go Giants!
'Saw

    I doubt that Parcells and Walsh would be teamed up.  It would be tough
    to have 2 colormen and noone experienced in play-by-play.  Perhaps
    they'll use Parcells in the studio or put him on the #2 team.

    re .395
    
    I know the CFL has been on shaky ground for a while, but haven't the
    teams pretty much remained the same? The Montreal Alouettes folded a
    few years ago, putting Winnipeg in the East. Toronto will certainly
    draw good crowds in the dome and wioth the Rocket. What about Edmonton
    and BC, aren't they reasonably healthy. Did the RoughRiders fold? Both
    Sask and Ottawa were in trouble at the gate, so it wouldn't shock me
    if one of them were to fold.  The main reason for all this was th
    influence of the NFL on TV.
    
    Tom
    

    Can't you just hear Parcells as a color man in the booth?
    
    Play-by-play:  "Third and seven...Montana takes the snap and fades
    back.  He's forced out of the pocket and rolls right.  And Montana hits
    Rice who breaks a tackle goes 61 yards with it down to the Ram 14 yard
    line!" 
    
    Parcells:  "I would have run Rathman up the middle on that play.  No
    use risking an interception."
    
    Play-by-play:  "Seems you've said that before, Bill.  Montana fades
    back and the rush is in his face, and he runs a perfect screen to
    Dexter Carter who dashes into the end zone and the 49ers take the
    lead!"
    
    Parcells:  "What did you call that?  A screen?  Hmmm.  It was a good
    time for an off-tackle run by Rathmen."
    
    Dan

    According to what I read, Parcells has auditioned but does not yet have
    a confirmed job with any of the networks.
    
    John

    Dan,
    
    Still spouting off the same old crap.   Parcells has coached the Giants
    to two Super Bowl victories - which equals the number of Super Bowl's
    won by Lombardi, Shula and Landry.  I still thought the object of the
    game was to win - by scoring more points then the other team.
    
    Defense and a good turnover ratio win ball games.  Despite your whining
    about hte Giants, they almost scored as many points as the 49ers did
    last year - despite their 'boring' offense.  The 'exciting' run and gun
    teams foer the most part didn't make the playoffs, or in the case of
    the Bills, got beat.   
    
    The Giants regular season record the last two years was 25-7.  Boy, I
    whish then had a_been an exciting team like the Lions and played below
    .500 ball.....
    
    I'd think Parcells would be alot better than the Genius, Bill Walsh in
    the booth - who is absolutely horrible.  Heck, the only guy Walsh is
    better than is Joe Namath 
    
    JD

    JD, do you any evidence that the Giants won because of their boring
    offensive game plans, or that the other teams you cite lost because of
    their less boring wons?
    
    Or is your "logic" as badly flawed as it seems?
    
    Dan

    > JD, do you any evidence that the Giants won because of their boring
    > offensive game plans, or that the other teams you cite lost because of
    > their less boring wons?
    
    Gee, Dan, do you have any evidence that Bill Parcells will be a boring
    broadcaster, criticizing any play that might be slightly exciting?
    
    I agree with JD, though, Parcells couldn't be much worse than the whining
    analytical expert Walsh and he probably won't tell us, like Namath, that
    Marc Wilson is a hell of a quarterback and that Irving Fryar is getting
    a bum rap from the fans of New England...
    
    glenn
    

    After the football I saw last season, I will taking boring and winning
    over exciting and dull any day.  Winning is the only thing that really
    matters to me.
    
    Irving Fryar does get a bum rap about a lot of things.  The Herald
    erroneously reported on either Sunday or Monday that Keith Lee and
    Robert Weathers were the only former or present Patriots players to
    attend Bill McPeak's wake.  Wrong, Kevin Mannix.  Mr and Mrs Irving
    Fryar were not only there, but Irving was the only player that I know
    of who sent a floral arrangement.  If you don't believe me, ask me -
    I'll tell you.
    
    I realize the Herald has a lot of axes to grind and it's mostly
    justified that they do so, but it shouldn't get in the way of accurate
    reporting and it definitely shouldn't be taken out on Irving who had
    nothing to do with L'affaire Lisa.  No wonder he wants out.
    
    I hope the PR Department has set Mr Mannix straight because if they
    didn't, I will.  This sort of thing really pisses me off.
                                                             
    John

The New York Giants offense is very similar to the offense that 
Lombardi used with the Packers.  There philosophy was to simply 
out-execute the other team.

Hell, when the Packers ran the Lombardi sweep, everyone KNEW it was coming,
but no one could stop it.

Yes, I believed they passed more, but then I think they had a good corps
of Wide Receivers (only back then it was Split End and Flanker I think).


And you know you're just yanking chains when you insinuate that Parcells
would be boring because you feel his offense is.  Why that's a ludicrous
as me thinking you're a dork from the stuff you write about the Jets ;^) ;^) ;^)

Seriously, I think that color commentators are made, not born.  With hard
work, preparation and some clear thought processes, people can become good
at it (Did anyone see the article on John Davidson, hockey color man in
SI?)

I think Parcells might have some interesting insights....

'Saw

    This just in, Glenn.  I was using sarcasm.  Film @ 11.  I have no
    comment on Parcells as announcer.
    
    Dan

    Anything negative about Joe Willie is fighting words!
    
    Dan

    	If Bill's teams are boring then please send him to New England.
    He cain bore me to tears...

    
    RE.  Parcells audition for  a TV job.  Did he use his Ultra SlimFast
    commercial for the screen test?  Insert smilies here...
    
    \pjb

    I thought I saw a headline on the National this morning that said that
    Parcells had a job with NBC.

    Yeah Parcells is going to annouce the playoffs as soon as the Jints are
    mathematically eliminated in the NFC East ....
    
    Dan, .403 was a riot ! 
    
    I'd love to see Parcells and Walsh announcing a game with a R&S team in
    it - probably be the only time those two agree ...

 Today's National has a small dibble that CBS called Bill late last night and
 told him not to do anything with NBC yet until they've had a chance to talk
 to him...

        According to the reports I saw this morning, Bill's not going to
    do anything but "fish and relax." He says there's no truth to the
    stories about him having health problems or that he's going to take 
    an analyst job with the networks.
    
    Bull~
    

    Read in the papers the last couple of days that Parcels has in fact
    taken an analyst position with NBC.
    
    Carlos

    Parcells will be working on NFL Live with Bob Costas, Will McDonough
    and OJ Simpson for a reported 250K/year, half or less of what he was
    making with the Giants.  Says his friendship with McDonough was the
    main reason he chose NBC over CBS (Parcells was linebacker coach of the
    Patriots in 1980 and he and Will became friendly then) and the contract
    reportedly contains an escape clause in case he wants to go back to the
    NFL.
    
    John

 It seems as though Lyle Alzado's current medical misfortunes are
 causing the NFL steroids issue to bubble up to the surface with a
 little more attention this time.
 
 Alzado, who has inoperable brain cancer, is currently making the
 rounds of talk shows and other expos�s and is describing his
 career-long abuse of steroids and the damage they've done to him.
 
 Now others are stepping forward and claiming that 75% or more of the
 players they played with used them.   Joe DeLamallieure (sp?), a
 former offensive lineman for the Bills and the Browns, coaches a high
 school team now here in Charlotte and he said in yesterday's paper
 that he lost at least 2 years off his career because he avoided
 steroids.   
 
 He played for 13 seasons (and made numerous All-Pro teams) as an
 offensive guard weighing about 245 natural pounds.    He claims he
 was released in part because he no longer had the size for the
 position what with a bunch of 300+ pounders running around on both
 sides of the line of scrimmage.
 
 Alzado also claims that the steroids affected his personality for all
 those years.   Says that all that crazy, wild-eyed, bad-ass dude
 stuff was caused by the steroids.    Says he could rarely ever enjoy
 something simple like dinner in a quiet restaurant without some
 intense feelings of agression, paranoia, and anxiety.
 
 Has the NFL ignored this problem ???  Is there a solution ???   Has
 the game advanced to the point where a 250 lb man is too small and
 too calm to play it ???
 
 And, if 75% of the NFL players were indeed using and abusing
 steroids, are we just on the brink of a sad line of yet-to-come
 medical problems and early deaths ???
 
 Steve Courson, Lyle Alzado, ???
 
 Bob Hunt

    DeLamallieur also mentioned in yesterday's Charlotte Observer article
    that Alzado is always in constant actor-mode and that this all might be
    a publicity ploy.  
    
    I find it amazing that all this didn't come out until Alzado was
    arrested about a month or so ago.  His alibi then was:
    
    	"I'm taking bahavior-altering drugs for brain cancer."
    
    Now that has ballooned to:
    	
    	"I've taken steroids in the name of the NFL which caused brain 
    	 cancer which made me get into that fight."
    
    This is all progressing at a funny pace and it seems very orchestrated
    to me.
    
    	--dan'l

Yeah, but I think the key to what Lyle says is the statement:

	God didn't intend for that many of us to be 300 pounders.

I know some guys close to that weight (well, between 275 and 300) but
they're few and far between.  The biggest guy on the Wanderers is 6'1, 270
and he doesn't work out all that much.  Even if I did some serious working
out, I'll bet that when the fat was down and the muscle up, I'd not
be much bigger than 225 or 230....

It could be a publicity stunt, but somehow I don't get that impression....
What does he have to gain by it?  I mean, he's in shitty shape right now,
and if I was in his shape, I'd be wanting to hide....

'Saw

    Re: -1,
    
    Saw,
    
    The "what does he stand to get from it" question may very well be
    answered...MONEY.  In his interview with Maria Shriver (I think), it
    was mentioned that Alzado was in tough financial straits (sp?).  Given
    that the entire interview seemed to be a 'sell-out', I was not
    surprised when they got around to mentioning Lyle's financial
    dificulties.  I don't want to seem cold-hearted regarding a man with
    inoperable brain cancer, but that interview left me feeling strongly
    that Alzado was willing to say whatever the show was willing to pay him
    to say!!!   I used to like Alzado....now I think he sold out!!!!
    
    
    Nelly

    Steroids in the NFL are and were a major problem, but unfortunately 
    because Alzado has contracted cancer he will become the leading 
    spokesman for the movement, at least for a while.
    
    I have little respect for Alzado, although I do feel sorry for him
    because he's probably going to die.  Last year when he gained all 
    that bulk back in his comeback and was confronted with the steroid
    accusations, he blew it off and cited this mystical exercise and
    deep-muscle massage program with restoring his strength and 
    youthfulness.  He could have made a stand and helped some kids by 
    his example when he and many others were using the stuff and was 
    confronted with it, but he chose to be a liar, which he now freely 
    admits.
    
    Now that he's sick, he's come out and is starting to point fingers,
    and I'm suspicious of ulterior motives (read: money).  These suspicions
    have at least been partially confirmed by his appearance on that 
    Sportsbeat program on ESPN, where there was much weeping and acclaim 
    for Alzado by he and his (gorgeous) wife as a "lover of humanity", 
    followed by the obligatory posting of a mailing address where 
    non-tax-deductable donations to The Lyle Alzado Medical Fund could be 
    made.  I wanted to puke after seeing all of this...
    
    glenn
    

    The SI article hit me kind of funny, particularly at the end.  It
    seemed to me that Alzado was trying to make a public statement about
    his past lying, and some sort of community service offering to kids.
    But, it didn't come across as real.  More like he was trying to meet
    some criteria that was set for him.  By whom?  I don't know.
    
    I feel sorry for him as a human-being.  As a person, I think he leaves
    much to be desired.
    
    lEe

>    I feel sorry for him as a human-being.  As a person, I think he leaves
>    much to be desired.
    
 
 Hey LEe, doesn't this statement apply to all Raiders?

 ;^)

    How does one go from being arrested for an altercation to needing help
    down a step from Maria Schriver in only one month?  Too fishy.  He's
    faking.
    
    	--dan'l

Not necessarily, Dan'l.  While I do tend to give people the benefit of the
doubt a lot, and while I'm not sticking up for Alzado, I *have* seen
people go down hill like that.

Chemo, especially some of the radical chemo that Alzado must be undergoing,
will knock the sh_t outta you quicker than Montezuma's revenge.  Plus, 
those brain cancers (while painless for the most part) have symptoms which
manifest themselves in unusual ways, like weakness...

I've seen enough cancer to know that it's highly probably Alzado isn't
faking.  And I guess that's why I do feel for him.  His is not a fate
I'd wish on anyone -- even my worst enemies....

'Saw

    I didnt know so many people in this notes file were experts on brain
    cancer.  If I ever have any medical quesitons I guess this is the place
    to be.  Is he faking it ????  Who knows, but to come out and say he is
    without knowing is pretty cold....  Whats he need money for, his days
    are obviously numbered and he just wants to come clean and clear the
    slate before its too late.  Steroids are a huge problem at all levels
    I knew many High-School athletes that were taking them to get the edge,
    I went to college with a body builder who's trainer quit due to him
    refusing to take steroids.  Its now at the point where you are almost
    forced into using them to make it in certain sports.
    
    Even if they make rules (suspensions) for steroid use it will be a joke
    just like there drug rules.
    							M_Air_Brooks

    >    Is he faking it ????  Who knows, but to come out and say he is
    >    without knowing is pretty cold....  
    
    I don't have an ounce of sympathy for Mr. Alzado.  He made his bed and
    now he has to Lyle in it.  
    
    Never liked him as a football player or as a person.  Why should I now
    that he claims he's dying?   Why have sympathy for this weak-minded
    individual and his (please hand me a tissue) Lyle Alzado Fund now that
    he has the spotlight once again and wants to twang your heartstring. 
    
    There are a lot more important people out there than Lyle Alzado for me
    to worry about and want to help...people who never had a fraction the
    chance he did to do something good for themselves or others.  
    
    	--dan'l

    re .427
    
    
    You aren't kidding about some chemo knocking the $h!t out of you.
    
    When my wife was on it, within 20 - 30 minutes of the hospital
    treatment, she couldn't even stand up. By the time I drove her from
    Worscter to Leominster.....25 minutes at most, she had to be carried
    from the car to the house. She also had to be carried from the bed 
    to the toilet......She would be this way from 5-10 days......
    
    She would just about be back to normal. and she'd get another dosage...
    
    
    Lou

Well, I don't know about anyone else in here being a medical expert, but
I know a lot about a lot of medical stuff for a couple of very simple
reasons.

	a) I was an EMT for a long time.  Between being a firefighter EMT
	   and serving a ton of time on a volunteer ambulance, I saw most
	   of the maladies that afflict mortal man.  About the only thing
	   I never did was deliver a baby, and on that score I came within
	   ten minutes.

	b) My brother is a surgical tech in Hartford.  They assist in 
	   operations and know a lot of medical sh*t.  He sometimes tells
	   me more than I could ever WANT to know.

	c) My grandmother died of brain cancer.  I have a particularly 
	   personal experience with that disease.  I guess the one thing
	   that you can say for brain cancer is that it really isn't as
	   painful as other cancers can be -- but some of the symptoms
	   and "side-effects" can be devastating.


Lou, my hat is off to you, sir, because I'm pretty aware of the trials
and tribulations you've experienced....


'Saw

    Chemo can be so devastating that many cancer patients decline the
    treatment even though it is the *only* chance they have for living.
    My brother was treated with it for over a year and finally punted when
    it became evident that he wasn't responding.  My mother simply said no
    thanks and chose to deal with the inevitable after seeing how it
    affected my brother.
    
    As Saw said, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.
    
    Mark.

    I'm a manager for a sunday evening bowling league (winter) and
    naturally, we don't schedule bowling on Super Bowl Sunday.  Can someone
    tell me the date of the '92 Super Bowl and if there's any pattern to
    the scheduling...ie, that perhaps it's always the third Sunday in
    January?  My bowlers thank you...
    
    Jim

    Superbowl XXVI is scheduled for Sunday, January 26th in Minneapolis.
    
    I believe the NFL is going to an 18 week schedule next year, so the
    Superbowl may very well be played the first week of February.
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

       I think they've gone back to a 2 week layoff before the SB also.
                                          Denny

    So, who is going down to the Pats-Redskin scrimmage?
    
    REK

    re:.436
     They didn't force me to buy a ticket for that one. So I prob'ly won't
    make it.
                                    Denny

    Just how many teams are the Deadskins scrimmaging????They held a
    "controlled scrimmage" lasted night here in Western Penna. against the
    Steelers.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Anyone have a Pre-season schedule?
    
    Cowboy
    

    Fri July 26th    
    
         Bears at Dolphins 6:00 pm
    
    Sat July 27th    
    
         H.o.F. Game Broncos vs. Lions at Canton 10:30 am
         49'ers at Raiders 2:00 pm       
    
    Sun July 28th    
    
         Ameri. Bowl '91 Bills vs Eagles at London 11:00 am
    
    Sat Aug. 2nd
    
         Bengals at Lions 5:30 pm
         Colts at Broncos 7:00 pm
    
    Sat Aug. 3rd
    
         Ameri. Bowl '91 Bears vs 49'ers at Berlin 11:00 am
         Patriots at Packers 5:00 pm
         Vikings at Saints 6:00 pm
         Rams vs Falcons at Jacksonville, Fla 6:00 pm
         Eagles at Jets 6:00 pm
         Cowboys at Chiefs 7:00 pm
         Oilers at Chargers 8:00 pm
         Ameri. Bowl '91 Raiders vs Dolphins at Tokyo 8:00 pm
         Cardinals at Seahawks 8:30 pm
    
    Sun Aug. 4th
    
         Redskins at Steelers 6:00 pm
    
    Mon Aug. 5th
    
         Bills at Giants 6:00 pm
         Bucaneers at Browns 6:30 pm
    
    Wed Aug. 7th 
    
         Broncos at 49'ers 7:00 pm
    
    Fri Aug. 9th 
       
         Falcons at Oilers 6:00 pm
    
    Sat Aug. 10th
    
         Lions at Bills 4:30 pm
         Dolphins at Bucaneers 5:00 pm
         Eagles at Bengals 5:30 pm
         Redskins at Patriots 5:30 pm
         Seahawks at Colts 5:30 pm
         Chiefs vs Jets at St. Louis 6:00 pm
         Packers at Saints 6:00 pm
         Giants at Browns 7:00 pm
         Steelers at Vikings 7:00 pm
    
    Sun Aug. 11th
    
         Cardinals at Bears 6:00 pm
    
    Mon Aug. 12th 
    
         Raiders at Dallas 6:00 pm
         Chargers at Rams 8:00 pm
    
    Fri Aug. 16th
    
         Browns at Redskins 6:00 pm
    
    Sat Aug. 17th
     
         Bills vs Packers at Madison, Wis. 11:00 am
         Bears at Raiders 2:00 pm
         Bucaneers at Falcons 5:00 pm
         Steelers at Eagles 5:30 pm
         Jets at Giants 6:00 pm
         Lions at Chiefs 6:00 pm
         Vikings at Bengals 6:30 pm
         Saints at Colts 6:30 pm
         Patriots at Cardinals 7:30 pm
         Seahawks at Rams 8:00 pm
    
    Sun Aug. 18th 
     
         Cowboys at Oilers 6:00 pm
     
    Mon Aug. 19th 
    
         Dolphins at Broncos 6:00 pm
         Chargers at 49'ers 7:00 pm
    
    Thur Aug 22nd
    
         Rams vs Oilers at Memphis 5:00 pm
    
    Fri Aug. 23rd
    
         Steelers at Lions 5:30 pm
         Colts at Eagles 5:30 pm
         49'ers at Seahawks 6:00 pm
         Chiefs at Bucaneers 6:00 pm
         Saints at Dolphins 6:00 pm
         Browns at Vikings 6:00 pm
         Falcons at Cowboys 7:00 pm
         Broncos at Cardinals 7:30 pm
         Raiders at Chargers 8:00 pm
    
    Sat Aug. 24th
    
         Giants at Patriots 2:00 pm
         Bengals at Packers 5:00 pm
         Jets vs Redskins at Columbia S.C. 5:00 pm
         Bills at Bears 7:00 pm
    
    
    Carlos

07-30-91 1134EDT
New Orleans Waives QB Fourcade
   LA CROSSE, Wis. (AP) _ The New Orleans Saints on Tuesday waived quarterback
John Fourcade, a starter for the first five games last year.
   Fourcade, a New Orleans native, was a hometown hero when he led the
struggling Saints to three victories in the final 1989 games. But he struggled
in 1990 and was replaced by Steve Walsh, acquired from Dallas.
   Walsh remains on the roster along with second-year quarterback Mike Buck and
the returning Bobby Hebert, who sat out last season in a contract dispute.
   Hebert had demanded to be traded when benched in favor of Fourcade but a
trade was never worked out.
   Fourcade said he knew his release was imminent ``when Bobby signed that
contract.
   ``I'm just thankful it happened now instead of later,'' he said.

End of story.


07-30-91 1318EDT
Cowboys Release QB Laufenberg
   AUSTIN, Texas (AP) _ Veteran quarterback Babe Laufenberg, who started and
lost the last game of the 1990 season, was released Tuesday by the Dallas
Cowboys.
   Laufenberg lost out in his battle for a backup role to starter Troy Aikman.
Cliff Stoudt and rookie Bill Musgrave of Oregon had been getting most of the
playing time in training camp.
   Laufenberg had a chance to get the Cowboys into the NFL playoffs after
Aikman got hurt last season but couldn't handle the Atlanta Falcons swarming
defense in a 26-7 loss. It was his only start for the Cowboys after coming to
the team as a free agent from San Diego.
   Laufenberg is a seven-year veteran from Indiana. His NFL passing totals are
93 of 211 for 1,057 yards and five touchdowns. He has 11 career interceptions.
   This is the eighth time that Laufenberg has been on the NFL waiver wire.

End of story.

       Hey Mike. how many tickets did you buy for the Pats-Cards exhibition
    game? That must be the social event of the Summer down your way!
                                          Denny

    RE: -1
    
    Denny, when's the game?  I haven't bought any.  I did hear from
    co-workers that the Cards looked good against Seattle this week.
    
    Mike (who's not into summertime football)

       It's a week from Saturday. Aug. 17th I think. Oughta be about 400
    degrees out.
                                   Denny

    Patriots go to Phoenix twice this year - Saturday night, August 17 at
    730 PDT for preseason and Sunday, September 29 at 4PM PDT for regular
    season.
    
    John

    It's only been averaging 107� this week.  Actually, we've had a mild
    summer.  We hit 115� in early July, but that was only a couple days.
    
    The Cards practice in Flagstaff where the elevation is 6,000ft.+ and is
    20� cooler.  They're not exactly ready for the heat either.
    
    Mike

 News on the NFL expansion front ...
 
 In recent weeks, the group leading Jacksonville's expansion effort
 announced a pretty bold new plan to entice the current NFL owners. 
 The "Touchdown Jacksonville" group said that it would give visiting
 teams a healthy cut of not just gameday ticket revenue but annual
 luxury sky box revenue as well.
 
 No other NFL team does this.   They each keep all their own skybox
 income and only share ticket income with their visitors.   The Jax
 proposal could make the owners both nervous and excited at the same
 time.   Nervous since they might someday have to do the same thing
 but excited since it could be a new revenue stream.
 
 But then, last week, the big cheese leader of "TD Jax" was arrested
 and charged with soliciting a prostitute.  He quickly resigned from
 the group saying that the group couldn't afford the "distraction"
 right now.   No telling if he'll be back when he zips his pants up
 again.   (I forget the guy's name.)
 
 Meanwhile, here in Charlotte, good ol' fashioned American capitalism
 is flourishing ...  The Richardson family, who is spearheading the
 city's push for a team, was already excited enough about the
 marketing possibilities of NCNB's new merger with C&S/Sovran which
 creates the country's 3rd largest bank and gives Charlotte instant
 financial credibility.
 
 But late last week, NCNB announced that it had won the bidding to
 extend to the NFL a brand new $980 million line of credit.  That's
 right, NCNB beat out the New York banks for the right to lend money
 to the NFL.  Close to a BILLION dollars.   Hugh Culverhouse, the
 Tampa Bay owner, was quoted as saying that Charlotte is a financial
 powerhouse.
 
 Many of the older, fully-capitalized teams/owners like the Browns and
 Steelers don't borrow a whole lot of money to operate their teams but
 some of the newer "Young Turks" like Jerry Jones in Dallas and Norman
 Braman in Philly are up to their eyeballs in the mega-debt it took to
 complete their purchases and they borrow all the time.
 
 Norman Braman is on the Expansion Committee.   You don't think Jerry
 or Mark Richardson might just whisper in ol' Norm's ear once or twice
 about where he got his credit balance, do you ???   Nah, they
 wouldn't do that, would they ???
 
 If ya cain't win it, buy it !!!   I love it.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  And don't forget that NCNB and the Richardsons leant a big
 chunk o' cash to the NFL owners' war chest during the 1987 players
 strike.

    Bob - We had an article in the local Richmond paper which said that
    Charlotte was an absolute lock for one of the new franchises. They've
    been getting great mileage out of the 150 mile gimmick. 
    
    Actually, I think Baltimore probably has the biggest potential TV
    audience of the contenders but it's proximity to Philadelphia and
    Washington make that number unreliable.
    
    St Louis is the largest metro area of the bunch but lacks the capital
    to build a suitable stadium.
    
    Jacksonville, as Bob noted, is being very creative in it's bid to land
    a team. It has the stadium but I'm not sure how big the greater Jax
    area is. About 1.5 million people sound right, anybody?
    
    Rich
    

    There's currently a war of words going on between the Charlotte
    Observer and the St. Louis newspaper.  Seems a St. Louis columnist
    wrote an article about how great St. Louis is and why they deserve a
    team and all the negatives about the other expansion candidates.  Yet
    in the end, even he said he expects the announcement to be St. Louis
    and Charlotte.
    
    What he did wrong was put down Charlotte in the process.  It was the
    same old baloney we heard when we were bidding for the NBA...nothing
    but racin', wrestlin', and religion ya'll.  So the Observer immediately
    bit back with a "you had your chance and lost your team" article. 
    
>    Jacksonville, as Bob noted, is being very creative in it's bid to land
>    a team. It has the stadium but I'm not sure how big the greater Jax
>    area is. 
    
    Is Jacksonville planning on building a new stadium because the Gator
    Bowl is the absolute pits (unless they've fixed it up within the last
    10 years or so).  I was there for Gator Bowl '81 and didn't think much
    of the facility.
    
    	--dan'l

 Are there any fantasy NFL leagues about to be formed or looking for an owner?
 If so please send mail to either cntrol::Childs or packer::Kelley.

 mike

    mike, You might try asking in SHANE::USER1:[FFL_STATS]FFL_STATS.NOTE
    if you haven't already.
    
    Carlos

 Thanks Carlos but my buddy's all set thanks to Paul Y. aka PY my friend got a
 team in the C league. Not a bad team either some real solid players on it.

 mike

    Mike -
    
    League C only has 2 original owners left - Ken Upton and myself.
    
    Totally devasted by downsizing,GEEP, etc..
    
    JD

    So - who do folks think will be the biggest impact rookies?
    
    Offensively?   Pritchard of the Falcolns??
    
    Defensively?  Maryland??
    
    JD

 JD how did my buddy's team do last year? It's the team where the owner has
 Randall the Vandall but was incorrectly using OJ Anderson???

 Some decent players on that squad...

    Mike -
    
    I won it all last year, which is all I remember.  Your buddie's team
    was /Don's last year.  Believe it finished in the middle of the pack.
    
    Amazingly,  I have the 1st and 3rd picks in our draft (since I didn't
    protect many of my players!)
    
    JD

More on the NFL expansion front ...

St. Louis had a 50,000+ sellout in Busch Stadium, Memphis sold out the 
Liberty Bowl with another 50,000+, Jacksonville had 60,000+ in the 
Gator Bowl, and Charlotte had 69,000 in Williams-Brice Stadium in 
Columbia, SC.   USC's stadium seats 72,000.

Rumor has it, though, that Jax gave away close to 30,000 tickets to 
pad the headcount.

Tagliabue reiterated yesterday that the league will cut to a short 
list by next March and will announce the two teams around this time 
nexted fall.

Obviously, I'm biased towards the Charlotte entry but this makes the 
third straight NFL preseason that Charlotte has hosted a very large 
crowd.   Two summers ago, the game was in Raleigh.  Lasted summer was 
Chapel Hill and now this summer in Columbia.   

One of the key messages to the NFL from Charlotte will be the 
wide-spread support for the team.  Raleigh and Chapel Hill are both a 
solid three hours away from Charlotte and Columbia is almost 2 hours 
away.    That *has* to look good.

Bob Hunt  

    I finally got my 1991 NFL Media Guide and Record Book this week and out
    of curiosity, took a look at the calendar for the 1992 season.  The NFL
    is indeed going to the 16-games-in-18-weeks schedule format and are
    doing so, in part, by eliminating the off week between the Conference
    Championship games and the Super Bowl.  The off week is in for this
    year and out for 1992.  In 1992, the season will look as follows:
    
    April 26-27		NFL Draft (one week later than this year)
    August 1		Hall of Fame Game and international games (1 week
    			later)
    August 7-8		Preseason weekend 1
    August 28-29	Preseason weekend 4
    September 6-7	Regular season week 1 (Labor Day weekend, which is
    			also 1 week later next year)
    January 3-4		Last regular season games (2 weeks later)
    January 9-10	Wild card games
    January 16-17	Division playoff games
    January 24		Conference Championships
    January 31		Super Bowl XXVII, in Pasadena
    
    I know it's looking ahead, but on the other hand, the longer season is
    really going to happen.
    
    John

 Bob, what's to worry about Charlotte's in...you already splained the sorid
 details of them lining the good ole boys' pockets during the strike...

 mike

    The Richardsons made a decision the other week that if awarded a team,
    it would carry the Carolina name and not Charlotte.
    
    Bob and I were dreaming the other day about being season ticket holders
    and the responsibilities therein.  One duty we see clearly and foremost
    is to boycott the wave.  
    
    We then looked at it logically, and thought that it might be impossible
    to stop since all these NASCAR fans are used to cheering this way.
    "Hey, it goes in a circle, it must be good."
    
    One variation I suggested is wave booing since an expansion team is
    bound to stink.
    
    	--dan'l

 �   Bob and I were dreaming the other day about being season ticket holders
 �   and the responsibilities therein.  One duty we see clearly and foremost
 �   is to boycott the wave.  
 
 One other duty ... Immediately following the inevitable pre-game
 prayerful invocation, Dan'l and I will both finish with a rousing ...
 
       "Drop kick me, Jesus, through the goalposts of life !!!
 
 Cain't wait ...
 
 Bob Hunt

Bob/Dan'l

You guys actually gonna get tickets to this franchise? When are we gonna
see you at the Hornets???

TTom

    
    As the season starts, here are where some prominent active players
    stand on the all-time lists:
    
    Quarterbacks:
    
    Passing Yards:
    
    Montana is in 4th, roughly 5300 yards behind Unitas for 3rd.
    Marino is 10th, needs 132 yards to pass Brodie into 9th, ~800 yards to
    pass Jurgenson into 8th, ~1400 yards to pass Ken Anderson into 7th, and
    2100 yards to pass Hadl into 6th.
    
    Joe Ferguson is in 12th all-time, ~700 yards behind Norm Snead for
    11th.
    
    Phil Simms is 15th all-time, needs 191 to pass Dawson into 14th, and
    ~960 to pass Gabriel into 13th.  He's 1300 yards behind Ferguson.
    
    Steve Deberg is 16th all-time, 29 yards behind Simms.
    
    Elway is 27th, Krieg 29th, Moon 30th and Boomer is 35th.
    
    TOUCHDOWN PASSES:
    
    Montana is 6th with 242, while Marino is 7th with 241.  Directly ahead
    of them are Hadl with 244, Fouts with 254 and Jurgenson with 255. 
    Unitas with 290 and Tarkenton with 342 are out of reach this year.
    
    Joe Ferguson needs 1 TD pass to equal Ken Andersons' total of 197, and
    4 to hit the 200 barrier.  Ferguson is 16th.
    
    Dave Krieg is 3 behind Sammy Baugh, 6 behind Grise, 10 behind Stabler,
    and 12 behindd Ferguson.
    
    Steve Grogan is in 24th place, 1 behind Craig Morton.
    
    Phil SImms and Deberg are 34th and 35th, respectively.  Simms is 2
    behind Norm Van Brocklin and Joe Namath, Deberg is 5 behind Simms.
    
    
    RUSHING:
    
    Eric Dickerson is in 5th place overall, 217 yards behind Franco Harris,
    409 behind Jim Brown, 739 behind Tony Dorsett.
    
    OJ Anderson is 1135 yards behind OJ SImpson.  Anderson is in 8th
    all-time.  Gerald Rigs is 13th all time, 141 behind Csonka and ~500
    behind Joe Perry, ~700 behind Jim Taylor.  Marcus Allen is 3 yards
    behind Riggs, and Freeman McNeil is ~300 yards behind Allen.
    
    
    RECEPTIONS:
    
    Art Monk is 3rd all-time, 20 behind Charlie Joyner and 89 behind Steve
    Largent.  
    
    Ozzie Newsome is 4th, 68 behind Monk.
    
    Joames Lofton is 6th all-time, 7 behind Charlie Taylor and 20 behind
    Ozzie Newsome.
    
    Stanley Morgan is 17th all-time, JT Smith 18th, and Roy Green 19th.  
    
    ROber Craig is 22nd all-time, while Mickey Shuler is 30th all-time,
    Drew Hill 33rd, and Jerry Rice is 35th.
    
    
    POINTS:
    
    Pat Leahy is 7th all-time, 3 points behind Fred Cox, 18 behind Jim
    Bakken, 20 behind Mark Mosel.
    
    
    
    Nick Lowery is 9th all-time, 61 points behind Chris Bahr.
    
    
    JD

    I have a strong Feeling that Dickerson just may make the #2 sport by
    the end of this season (or course injuries could change that).  Hes
    missed games due to injuries and missed 6 games due to contract
    disputes.....Walter Payton had a very durable career I believe he had
    the record for most games started in a row, or something.  Eric has
    the potential and the youth to catch him....
    							MaB

Absolutely, TTom.   In a flash.  

Although $$$ is not the only concern, you gotta realize that 10 NFL games 
are a helluva lot cheaper than 41 NBA games.

Bob Hunt

Monday morning barf today.  

Picked up the Herald Tribune to read that Runningham looks through for the
season already.

What a shame, the man really is entertaining to say the least.

Any updates?

rick

    
    Randall is out for the season with two torn ligaments in his left knee.
    The hit was a direct hit to the front of the knee by the Packer LB who
    had started in place of holdout Tim Harris. If that hit had been put on
    a QB by Andre Waters, he would have been shot on sight by the officials
    and announcers. I don't think it was a dirty hit, but the perception is
    such when Waters does it.
    
    A press conference reviewing the results of the MRI on his knee was
    scheduled for 2:00 but has been delayed. Will post more info as
    available.
    
    Dennis
    

    The first official football weekend is over (but only a handful of
    college games) and we already have a couple ridiculous "celebration"
    penalties.  After Elway ran for his first TD against Cincy, he
    nonchalantly tossed the ball underhanded up to a fan in a wheelchair in
    the stands.  He got the usual $500 fine for tossing a ball into the
    stands, but Denver also got a 5-yard penalty for excessive celebration
    (or whatever the stupid rule is called).  Say what??!!?  No dance.  No
    spike.  No winging the ball 40 rows up.  A simple toss to a fan as he
    ran by.  And he gets flagged for it.  Absolutely ridiculous. 
    
    Also, on Saturday afternoon, I caught the tail end of the East
    Carolina-Illinois game on ESPN.  Illinois was a big favorite and led at
    one point 38-10, but EC had just scored to make it 38-31 with about 2
    minutes left in the game.  EC tried an onside kick and recovered. 
    The EC players were ecstatic and jumping around and congratulating each
    other, but there was definitely no taunting involved.  EC got a penalty
    for celebrating and ended up starting 1st and 25.  They didn't get a
    first down and ended up losing.  This penalty, unlike the one in the
    Denver game, definitely had an impact on the game, which makes it all
    the worse.  
    
    Joe 

    Yeah, I watched the EC/IL game too and the celebration penalty
    really deflated the team.  They had the momentum and may have
    tied or won the game before the call.  This is a stupid rule
    and, if it called that easily and quickly, will destroy college
    ball.  What's next?  Penalties on fans for cheering?  Surely,
    this rule will be ammended or thrown out before next season.
    
    Cowboy
    

Subject: QB Ratings for Week 1

  (Minimum 10 attempts)

  Name            Comp Atts Yard INTs  TDs   RATE
  --------------  ---- ---- ---- ----  ---   -----
  Dan Marino        17   28  267    0    3   128.1
  John Elway        18   28  262    0    2   118.5
  Tommy Hudson      13   18  136    0    1   112.3
  Jim Kelly         29   39  381    1    2   111.2
  Jim Harbaugh      17   24  186    0    1   107.3
  Bernie Kosar      22   31  249    0    1   105.4
  Troy Aikman       24   37  264    0    2   103.9
  Warren Moon       18   33  250    0    2    99.3
  Vince Evans        6   10  127    1    1    96.7
  Tom Tupa          10   18  124    0    1    95.6
  Jim McMahon       17   25  257    2    2    94.9
  Dave Krieg        26   35  274    2    2    91.8
  Steve Deberg      13   24  158    0    1    88.5
  Ken O'Brien       16   25  176    0    0    84.8
  Bobby Hebert      18   29  226    2    2    80.5
  Jeff Hostetler    17   31  228    0    0    78.4
  Steve Young       12   22  162    1    1    74.4
  Jeff George       27   42  301    2    1    73.6
  Jim Everett       25   35  290    2    0    72.3
  Bubby Brister     13   21  189    2    1    67.4
  Mark Rypien       15   19  183    2    0    64.1
  V. Testaverde     12   28  197    1    1    64.1
  Boomer Esiason    11   20  206    3    2    61.7
  John Friesz       19   41  192    1    1    58.2
  Jay Schroeder      8   21  117    1    1    53.1
  Wade Wilson       21   37  248    3    0    43.5
  Don Majkowski     16   42  201    3    0    24.0
  Rodney Peete       8   21   75    3    0   -10.8
  Chris Miller       9   21  110    4    0   -19.7

    	Personally I miss the coreographed dance routines.  It added
    a certain esoteric quality to the touchdown.
    
    	     			/Donald

    Hey Jess, how did the Lambs(tm) do against Phoenix this weekend?

  Here's the *correct* "standings":

  (Minimum 10 attempts)

  Pos Name            Comp Atts Yrds INTs  TDs   RATE
  --- --------------  ---- ---- ---- ----  ---   -----
    1 Mark Rypien       15   19  183    0    2   143.1
    2 Dan Marino        17   28  267    0    3   128.1
    3 John Elway        18   28  262    0    2   118.5
    4 Tommy Hudson      13   18  136    0    1   112.3
    5 Jim Kelly         29   39  381    1    2   111.2
    6 Jim Harbaugh      17   24  186    0    1   107.3
    7 Bernie Kosar      22   31  249    0    1   105.4
    8 Troy Aikman       24   37  264    0    2   103.9
    9 Warren Moon       18   33  250    0    2    99.3
   10 Vince Evans        6   10  127    1    1    96.7
   11 Tom Tupa          10   18  124    0    1    95.6
   12 Jim McMahon       17   25  257    2    2    94.9
   13 Dave Krieg        26   35  274    2    2    91.8
   14 Steve Deberg      13   24  158    0    1    88.5
   15 Ken O'Brien       16   25  176    0    0    84.8
   16 Bobby Hebert      18   29  226    2    2    80.5
   17 Jeff Hostetler    17   31  228    0    0    78.4
   18 Steve Young       12   22  162    1    1    74.4
   19 Jeff George       27   42  301    2    1    73.6
   20 Jim Everett       25   35  290    2    0    72.3
   21 Bubby Brister     13   21  189    2    1    67.4
   22 V. Testaverde     12   28  197    1    1    64.1
   23 Boomer Esiason    11   20  206    3    2    61.7
   24 John Friesz       19   41  192    1    1    58.2
   25 Jay Schroeder      8   21  117    1    1    53.1
   26 Wade Wilson       21   37  248    3    0    43.5
   27 Don Majkowski     16   42  201    3    0    24.0
   28 Rodney Peete       8   21   75    3    0   -10.8
   29 Chris Miller       9   21  110    4    0   -19.7

      So what happened with Jay Schroeder?  Was he benched or did his bell
    get runged?  I see Evans in the ratings.....
    
    	Tim

�  Here's the *correct* "standings":
    
    As long as you are correcting, it's Tommy HOdson, not Tommy HUdson.

    Thanks, Mac - I was just getting ready to point Hodson's name out.
    
    Rich
    

	Think that Shula traded Hill to Phoenix 'cuz it would look bad if 
an NFL coach 'a his stature had a player that led the league in 
"celebration penalties"?  If he did, what a stoopid move.

				/Don

    did I miss something?
    
    Was Randall Hill traded???
    
    JD

Hill was traded to the Cards for the Cards first round pick in
next years draft.

Mike

    RE: -1
    
    Which may not be a very high pick.  The Cards will win some games this
    year.
    
    Mike

    I think Shula still has visions of Marcus Dupree spiking the ball and
    himself in the endzone in '82 and having to be carried off the field.
    
    	--dan'l
    	

 �   I think Shula still has visions of Marcus Dupree spiking the ball and
 �   himself in the endzone in '82 and having to be carried off the field.
 
 That was Duriel Harris but you were close, Dan'l.  :-) :-)
 
 Bob Hunt

    So, what will Hill's role be in Phoenix?  Will he start?  I know they
    have Ernie Jones, but who are the other Wr's??
    
    JD

    I heard that because the Florida Marlins are going to be playing in Joe
    Robbie Stadium, there are plans to put down artificial turf and dome
    the structure.  Can anyone confirm?
    
    	--dan'l

    re .486
    
    I know it appears that way, but it is NOT a law that all NL teams MUST
    play on PhonyTurf and in domes. One of the reasons Miami got the
    franchise instead of Tampa/St. Pete was that the league is leaning AWAY
    from dome/turf ballparks. The only major alterations on JRS would be to
    roll back a section of sideline seats (like the Metrodome) for a deeper
    (but still non-symetrical) outfield.
    
    Tom

Subject: QB ratings, week 3 and cumulative
Date: 17 Sep 91 15:26:43 GMT
For week 3:
(Minimum 10 attempts)

Pos Name              Atts Comp   Cmp%  Yards  AvgGn TDs  TD % INT  IN%   RATE
--- ----------------  ---- ----   ----  -----  ----- ---  ---- ---  ---   -----
  1 Bubby Brister       29   22   75.9    262   9.03   1   3.4   0  0.0   114.4
  2 Steve Young         27   19   70.4    275  10.19   2   7.4   1  3.7   112.4
  3 Jim McMahon         29   18   62.1    207   7.14   2   6.9   0  0.0   106.5
  4 Mark Rypien         23   15   65.2    181   7.87   1   4.3   0  0.0   103.7
  5 Jay Schroeder       22   13   59.1    181   8.23   1   4.5   0  0.0   100.8
  6 Jim Kelly           37   27   73.0    275   7.43   2   5.4   1  2.7   100.6
  7 Warren Moon         38   29   76.3    233   6.13   1   2.6   0  0.0   100.0
  8 John Elway          32   19   59.4    252   7.88   1   3.1   0  0.0    94.8
  9 John Friesz         22   13   59.1    136   6.18   1   4.5   0  0.0    92.2
 10 Wade Wilson         24   17   70.8    199   8.29   1   4.2   1  4.2    92.2
 11 V. Testaverde       30   19   63.3    278   9.27   1   3.3   1  3.3    90.7
 12 Jim Harbaugh        25   15   60.0    221   8.84   1   4.0   1  4.0    85.6
 13 Boomer Esiason      26   15   57.7    140   5.38   1   3.8   0  0.0    85.4
 14 Jeff George         32   21   65.6    220   6.88   0   0.0   0  0.0    85.4
 15 Ken O'Brien         35   21   60.0    237   6.77   1   2.9   1  2.9    77.9
 16 Jeff Hostetler      35   25   71.4    209   5.97   0   0.0   1  2.9    74.6
 17 Rodney Peete        24   13   54.2    173   7.21   1   4.2   1  4.2    73.8
 18 Don Majkowski       38   20   52.6    258   6.79   1   2.6   1  2.6    72.0
 19 Chris Miller        33   16   48.5    198   6.00   1   3.0   1  3.0    65.0
 20 Bernie Kosar        41   20   48.8    197   4.80   0   0.0   0  0.0    62.8
 21 Dan Marino          34   16   47.1    174   5.12   0   0.0   0  0.0    62.6
 22 Bobby Hebert        28   14   50.0    193   6.89   0   0.0   1  3.6    57.6
 23 Steve Deberg        14    9   64.3     93   6.64   0   0.0   1  7.1    53.6
 24 Jeff Kemp           50   21   42.0    322   6.44   0   0.0   2  4.0    47.2
 25 Tom Tupa            24   13   54.2    120   5.00   0   0.0   3 12.5    28.5
 26 Tommy Hodson        24   11   45.8    114   4.75   0   0.0   2  8.3    25.3
 27 Jim Everett         17    6   35.3     71   4.18   0   0.0   1  5.9    24.4
 28 Troy Aikman         25   11   44.0    112   4.48   0   0.0   3 12.0    17.8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cumulative:
(Minimum 30 attempts)

Pos Name              Atts Comp   Cmp%  Yards  AvgGn TDs  TD % INT  IN%   RATE
--- ----------------  ---- ----   ----  -----  ----- ---  ---- ---  ---   -----
  1 Jim Kelly          119   87   73.1   1019   8.56  10   8.4   4  3.4   112.7
  2 Steve Young         85   57   67.1    785   9.24   6   7.1   2  2.4   110.2
  3 Mark Rypien         68   44   64.7    567   8.34   5   7.4   2  2.9   103.0
  4 John Elway          89   52   58.4    754   8.47   4   4.5   0  0.0   101.1
  5 Jim Harbaugh        69   45   65.2    560   8.12   4   5.8   2  2.9    97.5
  6 Warren Moon        108   69   63.9    798   7.39   4   3.7   1  0.9    94.6
  7 Dave Krieg          35   26   74.3    274   7.83   2   5.7   2  5.7    91.8
  8 Bernie Kosar        94   57   60.6    633   6.73   3   3.2   0  0.0    91.3
  9 Jim McMahon         88   54   61.4    637   7.24   4   4.5   2  2.3    89.1
 10 Jay Schroeder       62   33   53.2    466   7.52   3   4.8   1  1.6    87.2
 11 Dan Marino          87   47   54.0    588   6.76   4   4.6   1  1.1    85.8
 12 Bobby Hebert        84   51   60.7    630   7.50   4   4.8   3  3.6    84.9
 13 Troy Aikman        104   62   59.6    615   5.91   5   4.8   3  2.9    80.4
 14 Bubby Brister       79   50   63.3    585   7.41   2   2.5   3  3.8    78.3
 15 Boomer Esiason      74   43   58.1    562   7.59   4   5.4   4  5.4    77.6
 16 V. Testaverde       87   48   55.2    636   7.31   2   2.3   2  2.3    76.6
 17 Wade Wilson         79   51   64.6    604   7.65   3   3.8   5  6.3    74.0
 18 Jeff Hostetler      98   59   60.2    624   6.37   1   1.0   2  2.0    73.7
 19 Jeff George        105   65   61.9    619   5.90   1   1.0   2  1.9    73.5
 20 Steve Deberg        81   45   55.6    463   5.72   2   2.5   3  3.7    65.0
 21 Ken O'Brien         89   50   56.2    541   6.08   1   1.1   3  3.4    63.9
 22 Rodney Peete        83   46   55.4    519   6.25   2   2.4   4  4.8    62.3
 23 John Friesz         96   46   47.9    507   5.28   4   4.2   4  4.2    60.5
 24 Jeff Kemp           84   42   50.0    557   6.63   2   2.4   4  4.8    59.5
 25 Chris Miller        95   52   54.7    608   6.40   3   3.2   6  6.3    58.6
 26 Jim Everett         68   38   55.9    444   6.53   0   0.0   3  4.4    57.5
 27 Don Majkowski      108   56   51.9    644   5.96   1   0.9   5  4.6    53.9
 28 Tom Tupa            61   29   47.5    462   7.57   1   1.6   4  6.6    51.4
 29 Tommy Hodson        68   36   52.9    345   5.07   1   1.5   4  5.9    47.7

Pos Name              Atts Comp   Cmp%  Yards  AvgGn TDs  TD % INT  IN%   RATE
--- ----------------  ---- ----   ----  -----  ----- ---  ---- ---  ---   -----
28 Troy Aikman         25   11   44.0    112   4.48   0   0.0   3 12.0    17.8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Giggle, giggle.  Tee-hee, tee-hee.  Guffaw, guffaw.
 
 C'mon, Bubby, you're nexted !!!
 
 Bob Hunt

Well, I've got a gem of a story here that makes me feel good.


After San Fran won the Super Bowl in January 1990, Bill Romanowski,
whose home town is Rockville Ct, somehow obtained a car (He won it
or something I forget).

Anyway, he donated the car to an organization to raffle off, the proceeds
to be used to light the Athletic fields at Rockville High.

The lights were turned on just recently.

It's nice to see someone give something back.

'Saw

btw, the local paper called the lights "Romanowski Candles" 8^)

       He's a BC grad too. We all know JD's very proud of him.
                                      Denny  ;^)

    The Eagles signed ex-Card WR Roy Green - Calvin WIlliams is out for a
    month or so with an injury.
    
    The 49ers have broken off talks with Broncos about obtaining Bobby
    Humphrey.
    
     JD

    A couple of days ago, Doc Midnight mentioned Rodney Peete, and how I
    was 'wrong' about my past assertions that Rodney would be an averge QB. 
    Doc said Peete is performing well now.
    
    ANyway, after the 1st 3 games of this season, Peetes' best, old Rodney
    is the 10th ranked QB in the NFC, with a QB rating of 61.6, he's thrown
    twice as many interceptions (4) as he has TDs (2), and his longest gain
    of the year is 37 yards.  As for rushing, he's ran 10 times for 57
    yards - or averaging 3.3 carries a game for 19 yards, 5.7 yards a
    carry, and he has 1 TD.
    
    JD

       The formerly N(o)F(un)L(eague) has rescinded it's anti-celebration
    rule. So Ickey cain shuffle again, if he EVER gets healthy.
                                     Denny
    

    Denny, I didn't think they rescinded it, just loosened it up a bit.

       I don't know. I heard it on either WRKO or WEeeeEeeeI drivetime this
    AM, and the guy said they did away with it. He also said (Thur) the Broons
    might lose Cam Neely to the Penguins as comp., so what's he know.
                                         Denny

 The NFL rescinded the 5-yard penalties for players high-fiving with
 the fans in the end zone seats and for players tossing the ball into
 the stands.   Players will still be fined ($500, I believe) for
 tossing the ball into the stands.   They just won't be penalized for
 doing it.   
 
 Lasted Sunday, Elway flipped the ball to a kid in a wheelchair and
 the refs tossed a flag.  That must have embarrassed the NFL enough to
 realize it had to rescind these penalties.   It takes a lot to
 embarrass the NFL.   I'm surprised.
 
 But the penalties for "excesssive or pre-meditated celebration" are
 still in effect.   That means the "Ickey Shuffle" and others like it
 are still a no-no anywhere in the stadium.    But a spike in the end
 zone is still okay.
 
 These anti-celebration, anti-taunting, and anti-crowd noise rules are
 the silliest rules on the books.   Mind-boggling to me why people
 would want to control the emotions involved in playing and watching
 such an emotional game as football.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Celebrating and taunting can lead to fights and I'd rather have no
    celebrating and taunting at all than have fights on the field.  I
    support the rules.
    
    John

 �   Celebrating and taunting can lead to fights and I'd rather have no
 �   celebrating and taunting at all than have fights on the field.  I
 �   support the rules.
 
 Then throw the flag on the fights.   Better yet, toss the fighters
 out of the game ... maybe the next game, too.   And toss in a hefty
 fine while they're at it.
 
 Penalize the problem, not a possible cause of the problem.
 
 The rules are asinine.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I say bring back the days of celebrations and TD dances!  That's what
    makes it exciting for the players *and* fans.  Place stiffer penalties
    on fighting if that's their concern.
    
    I guess the non-stop action, excitement, drama, and celebrations are
    what makes me such a big fan of the NBA.
    
    Mike

    We're also going to get back in the rathole of taunting vs
    sportsmanship if we're not careful, too.  Let me just say I'm
    anti-taunting because taunting is the antithesis of sportsmanship. 
    Call me naive but I still think sportsmanship has a place in today's
    sports.
    
    I would rather prevent the fights from happening than cleanup the mess
    resulting from fights and I think the officials would, too.
    
    John

       I don't think 'taunting' and 'celebrating' are the same thing. Mark 
    Gastineau taunted. I'd throw the flag on him. The 'Skins 'fun bunch'
    and Ickey celebrated. I'd leave them alone.
                               Denny

 � Let me just say I'm anti-taunting because taunting is the antithesis
 � of sportsmanship.  Call me naive but I still think sportsmanship has
 � a place in today's sports.
 
 Very few would argue this point.
    
 � I would rather prevent the fights from happening than cleanup the
 � mess resulting from fights and I think the officials would, too.
 
 Sounds reasonable but there are limits.   I mean if they quit playing
 the games, fired all the players, disbanded the teams and sent
 everyone home, they'd sure as hell prevent the fights, too, wouldn't
 they ???
 
 Sounds to me like we just have a simple disagreement on the *degree*
 of the prevention.  I think they've gone too far and I think the NFL
 looks silly in doing so.    Just an opinion.
 
 Bob Hunt

There is nothing better in the world than a good, hard, brutal, hit
to get your point across.  You don't need to taunt.

But for the league to regulate the amount of joy one must display
when scoring is un-American, and more properly belongs in what
used to be the Soviet Union.

The league should look more closely at the abomination of instant replay
than at celebrations in the end zone....

JMHO,
'Saw

    �I think they've gone too far and I think the NFL looks silly in doing
    �so.    
    
    Substitute "players" for "they've" and "NFL" and I'll agree with you,
    Bob.

    Some of the Players may go too far but for the most part I think
    these rules are hurting football.... Let the Players show Emotion,
    if you want to stop the Choreographed/Gang Celebrations fine but
    let the man who scores the TD/Makes the sack/ Recovers a fumble or
    gets an interception CELEBRATE.... I liked the Ickey Shuffle and
    like the players who say STICK it to the NFL and still spike the
    ball or throw it in the stands.  And beleive me being from NE my
    Home Team is never doing any of the about but are alwasy on the
    recieveing end and it dont bother me NONE.....
    
    Just Curious if the Poeple who agree that the Celebrating should
    be banned completely are the OLD, Coach Potatoe Types that cant get
    up and Celebrate with there teams anyway....:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
    :-) :-) :-) :-) (that should be enough)
    							M_Air_Brooks

	You know something?  I enjoy those endzone celebrations and 
gyrations so much that I think the season ticketholders should do something 
to bring the "Fun" back into the NFL.  In our section we are coreographing 
our own touchdown celebratory dance, and it goes something like this...  
First we jump onto the edge of the wall (we sit in the first row) and begin 
kicking furiously Rockettes style.  After a few good kicks we do a backflip 
onto the tops of our seats and begin undulating and gyrating our hips, 
Elvis-like and letting out a long loud "Woo, Woo, Woo" from the bottoms of 
our larynxes.  After this we circle 'round and 'round while holding our 
index fingers high in the air.  We conclude by slumping back on our seats 
with arms folded across our chests (rappin' style) and our haids slightly 
tilted to the right.  All this is supposin' that the Pats will score a 
touchdown at home this year though...

				/Don

       Yikes, and I git to sit with /Don this week!. Guess I better
    practice!
                                         Denny

>    Just Curious if the Poeple who agree that the Celebrating should
>    be banned completely are the OLD, Coach Potatoe Types that cant get
>    up and Celebrate with there teams anyway....:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
>    :-) :-) :-) :-) (that should be enough)


Mac is the farthest thing from a couch potato you could imagine.

While I've never had the privilege of going against him head to head,
I have had the opportunity to watch him play As and Bs while I've
played Cs.

He goes for 80 minutes, scrums his ass off, and is one helluva rugger.

I think a lot of his views on celebrations come from the fact that
there's damn little of that in rugby.  Usually when someone scores a try,
there are some handshakes on the way back to line up to receive the kick
again, and that's it.  I've even had side captains tell us not to do that,
in the belief that making it look matter of fact gives us the psychological
advantage of making them think we can score at will....

Folks on the sideline go spastic however, and on HWRFC there is a 
tongue in cheek tradition for C side games of doing a wave down the sideline
when C side is playing particularly well....

A handshake in rugby is tradition.  When you get to practice and see
guys there's always handshakes.  never notice that anywhere else.

So nope, Mac is not a couch potato....

Personally, I'd rather see a spike, or a high five, or something than
all this dancing stuff....

'Saw

    For the most part, I can do without celebrating.  Yes, I find it quite
    alright to show emotin - a pumped fist, a good hearty yell, some good
    old backpatting or even high fiving, hand shaking, a spike every now
    and then.
    
    However, I loathe choreographed celebrations such as the Ickey Shuffle,
    the Fun Bunch, the Billy Johnson dance, the Gastineau Sack Dance. 
    First, since they are choreographed, they aren't natural, spontaneous
    shows of joy.  Yeah, maybe they were (in some cases) the first time -
    but after that they become nothing more than cheap flaunts.  These
    types of celebrations are a form of tuanting, IMO.  
    
    However, I do/did find the NFL's rules prohibiting things like
    excessive fan noise, or hand slapping with a player to be a bit much.
    After all, without Fans, the NFL would be like going to the opera.
    
    Celebrate, cheer, show emotion - just do it spontaneous and natural.
    
    JD

    
    Yeah, Saw, but rugby players have class.  The reason we know they have
    class is because they exhibit sportsmanship even though they might not
    be technically required to by the rules.
    
    I'll say what I've said before: if a guy's an ass, let him make an ass
    of himself.  Just makes it all the easier to know who the good guys are.
    You know, the ones that hit the end zone and touch the ball down or
    hand it to an official...
    
    glenn
    

>FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623"             5 lines  20-SEP-1991 14:10
>    Celebrating and taunting can lead to fights and I'd rather have no
>    celebrating and taunting at all than have fights on the field.  I
>    support the rules.
    
    I disagree.  They celebrate in hockey after a goal and you never see 
    this hap...  Hmmm, maybe I better pick a better analogy.  :-))
    
    One of the funnier moments in one of the most thigh-shuddering 
    games ever prior to this year [8-4, Pens over Flyers in game
    6 of 1989 playoffs, Mario with 5 (FIVE!) goals], was Hextall 
    trying to catch Robby Brown and communicate his (Hextall's) 
    displeasure at Robby's Connors-style celebrating.
    
    In general, though, the celebration after a goal in hockey is
    tolerated.  Unlike the Cowboys (?) trying to break up the Fun
    Bunch...
    
    Hockey players: a classier breed of athlete.  :-)
    
    Charlie

      I thought the reason that the NFL didn't want celebrating was to
    speed up the game.  I guess they figure 25 seconds of celebrating was
    to much time, as apposed to 1 1/2 hours of commercials.......
    
    
     I don't mind the celebrating.  I used to like Gerald Willhite's back
    flip until the dip messed up his hamstring.
    
    	Tim

    	I always thought the celebration was meant for the fans, sort of
    a "Look at me. I made a touch-down and I'm happy" type of thing. When
    I played(small college) ball there was a helluva lot more taunting
    during each drive,both by the offense and the defense,  than some ol' 
    end-zone celebration. Personally, I used to look forward to seeing(sp)
    different celebrations in the NFL and(after a few brews) would celeb-
    rate right along with my favorites. So for those who are opposed to 
    the idea, try to remember, a lot of these men are young, from the 
    inner-cities(where "clownin" is cool) and very rich so why not act
    a fool. If/when I strike it rich, able to perform in front of millions
    of people, you can bet ya last money i'm a act like a damn fool and not
    even think twice about it. Just let your emotion flow and celebrate.
    
                               Darren                                   

    Do the Saints have a_awesome defense?  Now, granted, the Vikings are
    a marginal squad with a_outside shot at a wild card even with the 
    easiest schedule in the league, but...
    
    The Vikes racked up 150 some yards, over 50 of them on two plays, one 
    an end-of-half Hail Mary, the other a 14 yard run against scrubs as the
    game was ending, which put their *real* total yardage somewhere around
    90 yards.
    
    The Vikes had 6 first downs (two of them on the meaningless plays mentioned
    above) leaving only 4 first downs when it counted.
    
    The Vikes went 1-for-11 on 3rd down attempts.
    
    The Vikes never took a snap on the Saints' end of the field.
    
    I think the Saints have the best D in the league, and I thought that
    even before this game based on watching the 2nd half of the Saints' 
    stomping of the Rams last week.  Best LBs in the league, they have a
    rush now, and when needed (which is isn't often) their young DBs cain
    do the job.
    
    On the other side, they have three fine runners and a QB who may not be
    Dan Marino but he cain read Ds and check-off with the best a them and
    he's reasonably accurate with the pigskin.
    
    The Saints certainly have a shot at the Super Bowl...
    
    MrT
    

    Speaking of stupid celebrations....
    
    The Saints look good but one thing I can live without is there owner
    dancing around on the field with that sissy umbrella after each win.  
    
    Makes you wish you had one of those 10 ton weights they always dropped
    on people on Monty Python.
    
    Pat
    

    Last night's MNF game was one of the most exciting games in the history
    of the NFL.  The ending was enthralling.  Dierdorf had it right at the
    end when he said, "no wonder the NFL has so many fans."
    
    	--dan'l

       Where's Dan and JoJ when you really need 'em?!
       BTW, where's out Jest newsletter Hawk? I thought you were supposed
    to take over.
                                      Denny

    
    NFL coaches put entirely too much faith in their field goal kickers.
    I can't understand why, either, since all these guys have computers now
    and should be able to calculate the percentage of success from a given
    distance and see that it don't come close to 100%.  Some of these guys
    even get conservative as soon as the potential FG is within 50 yards.
    My theory is that they would rather see the kicker get the heat (read 
    Scott Norwell) than have to take it themselves in the unlikely event
    that someone fumbles or something while continuing to advance the ball
    to the goal line...
    
    glenn
    

    Ah, but the BEST line of the game was from Al Michaels:
    
    "The Jets' legacy is one game, upsetting the Colts in Super Bowl III.
    They've lived that legacy for almost 23 years.  They're always trying
    to take the next step.  Well, when?  The Jets are the NFL's wannabes."
    
    I could envision Dan turning red and blue and getting ready to fax Al a
    200 page rebuttal.  I loved it.  And so true.  You could replace "Jets"
    with "Joe Namath" and get the same meaning.  One moment of glory like
    the Jets HAD is better than none (like the Oilers...), but it gets old
    real fast.
    
    Last nights game is, IMO the Jets equal to the infamous "Meadowlands
    Miracle" game that signalled the end of the "Good Old Boy" Giants in
    1978.  For Jets fans, they should hope that embarrassment leads to 
    a shake up.
    
    JD

    I wonder if the Jests would be interested in re-hiring Joe Walton?????
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    amf
    
    JaKe
    

< Note 5.501 by FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623" >
.

.

.

�    I would rather prevent the fights from happening than cleanup the mess
�    resulting from fights and I think the officials would, too.
    
�    John


	This brings up something I think is totally ridiculous, on those
few occasions when a fight does actually break out during a game, more 
often than not, the penalties called (if any) are off-setting.  I really can't 
understand this.  I can only think of a few instances where one or both of the
combatants were ejected from the game.   If penalties are suppose to serve 
as a deterrent to unacceptable behavior, were is the deterrent in off-
setting penalties ?

The NFL should adopt some type of "instigator" rule similar to the NHL, where 
the player/team that instigates the incident is assessed an extra penalty,
and/or is ejected from the game.

I think that would cleanup some of the stuff that goes on during and after
the play is over.

Chap

    Any update on Montana?  Has he started to throw yet?

    
    >>Any update on Montana?
    
    Still a state in Northwestern USA!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    AMF
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    RE - .523      Montana should begin throwing again between this Friday
                to next Monday.
    
                                                       Night Flier  ~~v~~

    Don't get me started on my theory of how Montana (the state) doesn't
    really exist outside of a stage set for AMEX commercials, and is only
    there on maps to fill out a border for the US and put Jimmy Hoffa.
    

    
    >>there on maps to fill out a border for the US and put Jimmy Hoffa.
    
    
    C'mon Walt, We all know that Jimmy Hoffa is in the endzone at Giants
    Stadium.
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    

    Yeah, but where do you think the concrete came from?

    
    
    From ESPN:     Joe Montana will begin throwing on Monday.
    
                                                      Night Flier   ~~v~~

    
    The AFC Central is off this week.  That makes two weekends in a row.
    

 Good one, Dan'l.
 
 Hey, here's an interesting question for NFL fans to ponder ...
 
 I was daydreaming about the NFL schedule rotations on the drive in
 this morning ... {No comments, please.   I was diagnosed as terminal
 many years ago.}   Anyway, I was trying to remember which AFC-NFC
 pairings we would see nexted year.
 
 If I recall correctly, the NFC East will play the AFC West teams in
 1992.   And that got me thinking that if the standings hold form and
 both teams avoid the cellar, the Philadelphia Eagles will play the
 Kansas City Chiefs sometime nexted season.
 
 I know, I know ... get to the point already.    The point is that
 these two teams have *not* played each other since the 1972 season.  
 It's true ... KC and Philly have not played since a 21-20 Eagles big
 upset victory in Arrowhead in 1972.    One team or the other has
 always managed to be in the basement the season before when this
 rotation comes around and they keep missing each other.    Happened
 in 1989, 1986, 1983, 1980, and so on ...
 
 Is there any other of these *NON*-matchups that goes back any longer
 than 1972 ???    When was the lasted time the Chargers played the
 Lions, for example ???    You need two teams that have generally been
 pretty dismal over the last 20 or so years.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Bob -
    
    Before lasted year, the Jints hadn't played the Dolphins since
    1972....
    
    Also, this might interest you.  The offensive line (esp. Dan Alexander)
    of the Eagles said they like having McMahon to block for - because he
    gets rid of the ball quickly.  He said Cunningham is always scrambling 
    around trying to make the big play - and that its easier to move in the 
    '4 yards and a cloud of dust' mode that McMahon has the team going in.
    
    Wonder if these type of comments will cause any ill blood?
    
    JD

    
>    Before lasted year, the Jints hadn't played the Dolphins since
>    1972....
    
    But these two teams did have a game cancelled in '87 due to the strike.
    
    Joe
 

    The Eagles have DOMINATED the Chiefs for the past TWENTY (20) YEARS!!!!! 
    
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

Giants beat the Brownies, Hal takes a powder.

Yet there is still a Halism(tm) in SPORTS.  

I've been reading the past few and rolling!


'Saw

     A question for you guys....
    
     +-------------------------------------------------------------+
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     |                                                             |
     |                                                             |
     |    //                                                       |
     |   //                                                        |
     +--| |--------------------------------------------------------+
     |   -                   -                 -                   |
     |   O                   -                 -                   |
     |  //                   -                 -                   |
     | <>                    -                 -                   |
     +----------------------------5 YD-----------------------------+
     |                       -                 -                   |
     |                       -                 -                   |
     |                       -                 -                   |
     |                       -                 -                   |
     +---------------------------10 YD-----------------------------+
	OK guys, I have this NFL rule question that I THINK I know the 
	answer to, but am not sure and I want your opinion.  

	A receiver has caught a pass, and fallen down (without being 
	touched).  His lower torso is in the endzone but his upper
	half and the football are on the 1 yard line.  This is not a 
	touchdown.

	Now some opposition player come running toward him, and in his
	attempt to wiggle into the endzone while still on his belly,
        his foot touches out of bounds.  

	Question is...what is it?

		Touchdown?
		Touchback?
		Ball spotted on 1 yard line?
		Safety?

	I think the ball is on the 1, but....

	Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    I would say ball on the 1 also.

    I think it's a a TOUCHDOWN as long as the foot was out of bound in the 
    end zone.
    

    It cain't be a touchdown since the ball never entered the end zone.  It
    won't benefit the other team in any way unless it was 4th down since he
    didn't commit a turnover.  Almost by process of elimination, it's ball
    on the one.
    
    When a player is standing upright and steps out of bounds, the ball is
    considered to be out of bounds where his foot touches.  If a player is
    on the ground as you describe, I think the ball is considered to be out
    of bounds where his foot touches too except when the end zone must be
    considered.
    
    John

    If the ball is at the 1 yard line when his foot goes OB, ball is placed
    at the 1.  The ball needs to break the plane of the endzone to be a TD.
    
    
    
    Nelly

Uh, I think it's a 5 meter scrum...

Ooops, wrong sport.

It's on the ONE.


(And hey, IBM didn't take us over.  Why don't you phone them and have
THEM make the call 8^))

'Saw

    I have seen where a running player swings his feet JUST inside the
    endzone flag, the ball never breaks the plane of the endzone and that's
    a TD.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    -1  Shouldn't be a TD,  but you how consistant officiating is...
    
      On the other question,  or I guess its still the same one,  it seems
    the ball should go on the  1 yrd line.  Now that I think about it, 
    maybe the guy should just throw it in the stands and say we forfit this
    game;^
    
    	Tim

    
    	Tim!  I thought I had you straightened out on the 
    	smiley face thang!!??  OK, this is the last time...
    	PAY ATTENTION!
    
    				:^)
    
    				^
    				|
    				|_  Tilt yo goofy haid 90
    				    degrees down towards
    			     	    your left shoulder.  There!
    				    See that!  That's a smiley
    			 	    face!  Sheesh.........
    
    
    Claybroon  8*)

Claybone Wade:   SPORTS FacePolice(tm)

    re: celibrations rules
    
    I know this is very late, but I'm still catching up from 3 weeks of
    vacation.  
    
    One thing I don't like about the rules is that they are supposedly
    there to eliminate the taunting and the fights resulting from it.  Yet,
    the NFL ignores 90% of the taunting that actually goes on and singles
    out the non-taunting celibration.
    
    I can't count the number of times that I've seen a safety deliver a
    hard hit to a reciever, then stand over him jawin' at him about
    (heavily paraphased since this is  public record) how bad a player the
    reciever is and how fortunet the reciever is to be injury-free.  Yet
    I've never seen a flag thrown.  Occationally the viewer can even read
    the lipps of the taunter, or the announcers comment on the incident.
    
    Another example is Tim Harris recently of the Packers.  He went so far
    as to color the index fingers of his gloves a different color.  This
    made his hands look even more like guns in his "six-shooter"
    celebration after QB sacks.  Again, no flags.
    
    These incidents seems much more likely to start fights than a player
    doing a dance behind his own bench 20 yards away from the nearest
    opponent.  Yet the NFL turns a blind eye to one and is up-at-arms about
    the other.
    
    Commander Scott

       Someone over in the Pats file says WEeeeEeeeI reports that Ron Meyer
    has been canned! Def Coord takes control of the Indy machine.
                                        Denny

    re .548:
    
    You knew it was just a matter of time...
    
    
    py

    
    They should have given him one more week.  He'd have picked up his
    first win this weekend against Pittsburgh.
    

    
    >   Someone over in the Pats file says WEeeeEeeeI reports that Ron Meyer
    > has been canned! Def Coord takes control of the Indy machine.
    
    The report off the newswire says that the new coach is defensive
    coordinator Rick Venturi, formerly head coach at Northwestern.  While
    at N'wstrn, Venturi led the 'Cats to a then-NCAA Division 1 record 
    losing streak.  The Colts go with a proven winner!
    
    glenn
    
    

    I noticed that both the Falcons and Braves are scheduled to play at
    home Sunday - the Falcons in the afternoon and the Braves at night. 
    Are they planning on switching the Falcons game to SF or are they just
    gonna go for it and play 'em both at home?  The papers I have indicate
    the football game is still gonna be played in Atlanta.
    
    
    Joe

    Heard earlier today that the Falcons will go to SF this week and then
    SF will come here later on in the season - just flip-flopping the
    dates.
    
    John

What's the deal with this week's byes in the NFL?

If I read it correctly Chicago, Detroit, Green Bay and Tampa Bay from the
NFC Central have byes as do Denver (5th place AFC West?) and New England
(5th place AFC East?). What about Minnesota? Who's in charge here?

TTom

    AFC Central		Week of September 29
    NFC West		Week of October 6
    New England, Denver, NFC Central except Minnesota
    			Week of October 13
    NFC East except Phoenix
    			Week of October 20
    AFC East except New England
    			Week of October 27
    AFC West except Denver
    			Week of November 3
    Minnesota, Phoenix	Week of December 1
    
    John

Thanks for the data, John.

I thought they rolled up the 5th place teams and gave them all the same
week off? Or was that lasted year?

In any case, I know what will happen.

TTom

    That was lasted year when all 4 5th place teams had the first week in
    December off.  I have no idea why they changed it this year.  I'd
    personally rather have this week off anyway.  This is a good weekend to
    have no game to worry about.
    
    John

    During NBC's pregame show they played an excerpt from Mike Ditka's
    weekly radio show.  Ditka was expressing his opinion on the Bears'
    previous 2 opponents, the Jets and the Bills.  The Jets managed to
    loose the Bears in overtime on Monday Night Football.  The Bills pretty
    much stuffed the Bears the following week.  Ditka said that the Jets
    were the superior ballclub.

    
    >>               -< Mike Ditka:  "Jets better than Bills" >-
    
    this statement   +    75�  will get you a cup of coffee.
    
    SOunds more like sour grapes to me.
    
    JaKe
    

Eh, Coach Dicka knows what he's talkin' about.  If he says Da Jets
are better'n da Bilss, then he's right.

Next week Da Bearss are off.

DA Bearss....


hth,
Bill Swersky
    

    In case you haven't heard, Montana is scheduled for elbow surgery this
    week and will miss the rest of the year.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

Week 6 QB Ratings.....
    (Johh Friesz is moving UP)
    
Week 6 (minimum 10 attempts):

Pos Name              Atts Comp   Cmp%  Yards  AvgGn TDs  TD % INT  IN%   RATE
--- ----------------  ---- ----   ----  -----  ----- ---  ---- ---  ---   -----
  1 Jeff Hostetler      18   14   77.8    200  11.11   1   5.6   0  0.0   131.5
  2 Bubby Brister       16   13   81.2    181  11.31   2  12.5   2 12.5   113.8
  3 Dan Marino          38   25   65.8    331   8.71   2   5.3   0  0.0   110.7
  4 Warren Moon         31   19   61.3    334  10.77   2   6.5   1  3.2   106.1
  5 Troy Aikman         41   31   75.6    287   7.00   1   2.4   0  0.0   102.4
  6 Ken O'Brien         23   19   82.6    195   8.48   0   0.0   0  0.0   102.0
  7 Steve Deberg        23   16   69.6    150   6.52   1   4.3   0  0.0   101.7
  8 Jim Kelly           23   17   73.9    189   8.22   0   0.0   0  0.0    97.9
  9 Jeff George         28   22   78.6    191   6.82   0   0.0   0  0.0    95.1
 10 Chris Chandler      11    7   63.6    105   9.55   2  18.2   2 18.2    94.9
 11 Bernie Kosar        24   16   66.7    133   5.54   1   4.2   0  0.0    94.6
 12 Rodney Peete        38   24   63.2    281   7.39   2   5.3   1  2.6    92.1
 13 John Elway          42   24   57.1    301   7.17   2   4.8   1  2.4    85.5
 14 John Friesz         22   12   54.5    118   5.36   1   4.5   0  0.0    85.0
 15 Mark Rypien         31   18   58.1    168   5.42   2   6.5   1  3.2    81.1
 16 Rich Gannon         23   10   43.5    105   4.57   1   4.3   0  0.0    71.8
 17 Jay Schroeder       23   15   65.2    184   8.00   1   4.3   2  8.7    68.0
 18 Blair Kiel          35   18   51.4    212   6.06   1   2.9   2  5.7    55.9
 19 Tom Tupa            40   23   57.5    230   5.75   0   0.0   2  5.0    53.1
 20 Boomer Esiason      38   18   47.4    256   6.74   0   0.0   2  5.3    47.7
 21 Hugh Millen         31   17   54.8    191   6.16   0   0.0   2  6.5    46.6
 22 Jeff Kemp           31   16   51.6    204   6.58   0   0.0   3  9.7    32.9
 23 Jim Harbaugh        41   17   41.5    206   5.02   0   0.0   3  7.3    27.1
 24 V. Testaverde       18    5   27.8     52   2.89   0   0.0   1  5.6    16.4
 25 Brad Goebel         20    9   45.0     62   3.10   0   0.0   2 10.0    12.9

    
    All Season QB Ratings 
    
Cumulative (minimum 60 attempts):

Pos Name              Atts Comp   Cmp%  Yards  AvgGn TDs  TD % INT  IN%   RATE
--- ----------------  ---- ----   ----  -----  ----- ---  ---- ---  ---   -----
  1 Jim Kelly          206  143   69.4   1833   8.90  14   6.8   5  2.4   109.5
  2 Steve Young        151   96   63.6   1290   8.54   8   5.3   4  2.6    97.3
  3 Bernie Kosar       140   86   61.4    873   6.24   5   3.6   0  0.0    91.2
  4 Troy Aikman        192  125   65.1   1342   6.99   7   3.6   3  1.6    91.1
  5 Warren Moon        183  108   59.0   1400   7.65   8   4.4   4  2.2    88.6
  6 Mark Rypien        145   90   62.1   1156   7.97   8   5.5   6  4.1    88.2
  7 Jim McMahon        125   80   64.0    955   7.64   4   3.2   3  2.4    87.9
  8 Jeff Hostetler     165  110   66.7   1257   7.62   3   1.8   3  1.8    87.9
  9 John Elway         181  101   55.8   1355   7.49   6   3.3   2  1.1    86.2
 10 Dan Marino         191  108   56.5   1376   7.20   7   3.7   3  1.6    84.9
 11 Bubby Brister      120   75   62.5    956   7.97   6   5.0   6  5.0    83.2
 12 Bobby Hebert       138   80   58.0    936   6.78   6   4.3   4  2.9    81.1
 13 Steve Deberg       156   93   59.6    939   6.02   6   3.8   4  2.6    79.0
 14 Ken O'Brien        166  103   62.0   1141   6.87   2   1.2   3  1.8    78.9
 15 Jeff George        204  133   65.2   1302   6.38   3   1.5   5  2.5    77.7
 16 Jim Harbaugh       187  107   57.2   1272   6.80   5   2.7   6  3.2    73.7
 17 Tom Tupa           167   93   55.7   1246   7.46   5   3.0   7  4.2    72.1
 18 Jay Schroeder      142   72   50.7    910   6.41   6   4.2   5  3.5    70.5
 19 Rodney Peete       167   99   59.3   1126   6.74   5   3.0   8  4.8    69.6
 20 Boomer Esiason     149   79   53.0   1030   6.91   4   2.7   7  4.7    64.4
 21 John Friesz        172   81   47.1    926   5.38   5   2.9   5  2.9    61.3
 22 V. Testaverde      128   63   49.2    790   6.17   2   1.6   4  3.1    61.0
 23 Jim Everett        132   73   55.3    904   6.85   0   0.0   5  3.8    60.9
 24 Chris Miller       156   83   53.2   1013   6.49   5   3.2   9  5.8    60.1
 25 Hugh Millen         85   51   60.0    550   6.47   1   1.2   5  5.9    58.5
 26 Jeff Kemp          156   84   53.8   1060   6.79   3   1.9   9  5.8    57.6
 27 Don Majkowski      152   78   51.3    920   6.05   2   1.3   7  4.6    55.3
 28 Chris Chandler      67   34   50.7    330   4.93   3   4.5   4  6.0    54.9
 29 Wade Wilson        122   72   59.0    825   6.76   3   2.5  10  8.2    53.5
 30 Tommy Hodson        68   36   52.9    345   5.07   1   1.5   4  5.9    47.7

    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

Bobby Humphrey is available for a 1st round pick nexted year....

       Is today the trade deadline?
                                 Denny

    Yup... at 4 pm ET.
    

    I saw in USelessA TODAY where the Oiler QB, Warmand Spooned, is crying
    about money.
    
    He supposedly has a clause in his contract where his salary is
    automatically bumped up to the average of the top 3 QB salaries in the
    NFL.
    
    Why the hell does anybody sign a long term contract now-a-days????
    It always seems that a year or 2 later, they CRY that someone else is
    making more and demand re-negotiation.
    
    Or, they have one good year and demand re-negotiation.
    
    If they have a horrible year, does management demand money back????No
    
    
    I say, "they signed it, they should suffer with it"
    
    JaKe
    

    Warren was interviewed on NBC's pregame show this past Sunday.  He
    wasn't doing any crying then.  His only comment which could possibly be
    viewed as "crying" was that it is difficult to determine what other
    players are making so that the conditions of his contract can be met.
    
    If USA today is so useless, why do you keep reading it and putting that
    "useless" information in the conference?

    I'm only reading USelessA TODAY cause the Colorado Springs Hilton
    slides one under my door every morning.   
    
    I figure they either want me to read it or squat over it.
    
    So, being already house trained, I read it.Actually, it's not to bad of
    a generic style newspaper.
    
    
    JaKe

    Thanks alot Hawk. I'm having enough trouble with the Flutie rathole in
    the Patriots' conference without you trying to start it up again in
    here.
    
    ;^)

Subject: JOE MONTANA moves to CFL
    
    
Now for the juicy news: KTVU reported last night that Joe is on the verge of
signing a 5 year $21 mill. contract with the Toronto Argos!?!

Well! the benefit to Joe is obvious. So, why would Mcnoll(?), owner of the Argos
pay big bucks for a 35 year old QB on the verge of a possibly career ending 
surgery? Because, apparently FOX Television has an agreement with Mcnoll that
if he could sign Montana - they would televise CFL games here in the US!!

Eddie DeBartolo, apparently, is not totally opposed to the idea of letting Joe
go to CFL. And this is because a) Joe's value to the 49ers is questionable
after the surgery. b) He already has a good quarter back in Steve Young. c)
He saves $7mill left on Joe's contract which extends to '93. and finally d)
He doesn't lose Joe to any other team in NFL.


Who are KTVU's sources: International Business Management - a New York based
company that handles endorsement contracts for Joe Montana and Wayne Gretzky!


Whether these rumors are true or false - I for one certainly hope that they
get settled as sson as possible so that the rest of the team get on with 
the game - and try to get into the playoffs. It is too much of a distraction 
right now.

    
    
         It's official! Joe Montana had elbow surgery last night at 8:00 PM
    PST at Stanford Medical Hospital in Palo Alto, CA. The surgery lasted
    approximately 1 hour. By all reports out of the hospital everything
    went ok and there are no problems. There will be a news conference held
    today at 10:00 AM PST as to what was done, how much damage they found,
    if there will be a need for more surgery (there was speculation that
    some of the Tendon may be too badly damaged and some from his other arm
    may be used to replaced the damaged portion), and to what his prognosis
    is. From what was said last night on the TV he will be finished for the
    season.

                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~

    I duno about that rumour, but I s'pose anything is possible. Sure, it
    might be worth it to McNall and the Argos to get another marquee star
    in the CFL, but what about the rest of the league (other than the BC
    Fluties). Many franchises are hurting at the gate and in the wallet. If 
    anything, Joe should play for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats or the Saskatchewan/
    Ottawa RoughRiders, since those teams are barely hanging on. As it is 
    the CFL has only 8 teams. Where else could Win-a-Pig be in the EAST
    division?
    
    The CFL is hurt because of cable TV giving access to NFL games.
    Obvously the skill level of players is higher south of th border, so
    many fans might be more likely to watch the NFL on the box than to brave 
    the cold and sit in the stands. This is too bad, since in a lot of
    ways, the CFL rules provide for a more exciting game. With the "rouge"
    or "single" ties are almost non-existent. Also, there are only 20
    seconds instead of 30 between plays, so the players get right up & get 
    in the huddle after the whistle blows. No milling around like cattle 
    like the NFL. This makes the game go MUCH quicker. I think the rosters
    are a good deal smaller, so there's less specialization. You get guys
    who are more complete players, not guys who can only play on 3rd down,
    less than 5, facing the West end zone in afternoon games when it's
    cloudy, but between 40 and 65 degrees.
    
    Unfortunately, I can see the CFL becoming what the NASL was. A
    generally weak league with a couple of mega-strong teams (NY Cosmos).
    Both leagues ha/ve/d a pretty decent thing going, and the PO-TEN-SHILL 
    for success, but it seems like a matter of time before the weak sisters
    of the league just can't compete with the Argos. The Argos then will
    apply to the NFL after the CFL folds, cause they have to play someone.
    
    Tom  

    Tom, if the NFL is going to expand, I'd like them to expand into the
    CFL and accept 4 teams from there.  I'd like the NFL to be similar to
    MLB with both Canadian and American teams.  The time has come.
    
    Glenn

    Fair enough, Glenn, but which 4 teams do you think are strong enough 
    to be NFL franchises? Toronto, definitely. Edmonton? Good bet. They 
    have a great stadium - Empire Stadium, about 10 years old and about 
    70,000 seats, and they come close to filling it every week. British 
    Columbia? Flutie back as an NFL QB - Who woulda thunk it? Actually, 
    I think the SeaHawks would have a lot to say about this, since 
    Vancouver is quite close. They would probably demand a ton of money 
    for "territorial rights," so that might sink the BC bid. The Win-a-Pig 
    Blue Bombers are a decent team on the field and do reasonably well 
    at the gate, meaning they lose less money than Hamilton, Ottawa,
    Calgary and Saskatchewan, who are in "intensive care."
    
    Aside from this, whose rules do you use? The 3 down format forces the 
    game to be more wide-open, go for the bomb, instead of the 3 yards and
    a cloud of dust running game. This is patially why players like Flutie,
    Ismael and others thrive in a wide-open game. The fields are also much
    bigger - about 60 yards wide, 110 yards long and 25 yard end zones.
    Reality says that if a Canadian team joins the NFL, they will play by
    NFL rules/dimensions, but it still would make it a more exciting game
    if they adopted *SOME* of the CFL rules. The NBA got it's 3-point shot
    (which is universal in ALL levels of B'ball) from the ABA.   
    
    That is all we need - to abolish the CFL, which is the exact antithesis
    of the NFL: An entrtaining league that isn't so self-important that it
    strips players of all individuality. Part of the low-key image is that
    it knows it is at best, second banana to hockey (and possibly
    baseball). The point is that games can still be entrtaining, and to
    make it a "NFL-North" would strip away everything good about the CFL.
    
    Tom

       <<< SWECSC::DISK$PELLE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]AMERICAN_FOOTBALL.NOTE;2 >>>
                   -< American Football all over the world. >-
================================================================================
Note 263.23                  NFL Results (1991-1992)                    23 of 23
SWECSC::AHLGREN "Love knows no colour!"             391 lines  10-OCT-1991 11:45
                            -< Statistics Week #6 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
Subject: NFL Statistics
Date: 8 Oct 91 22:23:15 GMT

                         NFL Statistics
                  By United Press International
                  AMERICAN FOOTBALL CONFERENCE
                             Offense
                             tot.  rush   pass
Buffalo                    2477    770   1707
New York                   2035    896   1139
Denver                     2028    731   1297
Seattle                    1918    618   1300
Houston                    1890    513   1377
Miami                      1825    505   1320
San Diego                  1786    920    866
Cincinnati                 1549    578    971
Kansas City                1684    795    889
Los Angeles                1483    574    909
Pittsburgh                 1463    505    958
Indianapolis               1407    296   1111
New England                1275    514    761
Cleveland                  1199    413    786
    
                             Defense
                             tot.  rush   pass
Cleveland                  1357    624    733
Pittsburgh                 1555    508   1047
Houston                    1571    538   1033
Kansas City                1677    652   1025
Indianapolis               1696    840    856
Seattle                    1718    564   1154
Cincinnati                 1792    598   1194
New York                   1825    504   1321
Denver                     1880    661   1219
Los Angeles                1889    689   1200
Miami                      1970    748   1222
San Diego                  1984    689   1295
New England                2064    498   1566
Buffalo                    2102    935   1167
    
                  NATIONAL FOOTBALL CONFERENCE
                             Offense
                             tot.  rush   pass
New York                   2080    877   1203
Washington                 2018    880   1138
Detroit                    2015    902   1113
Chicago                    1895    599   1296
Dallas                     1892    663   1229
San Francisco              1832    585   1247
Phoenix                    1719    534   1185
Green Bay                  1603    409   1194
Minnesota                  1597    682    915
New Orleans                1547    634    913
Tampa Bay                  1522    572    950
Philadelphia               1521    469   1052
Atlanta                    1481    535    946
Los Angeles                1294    460    834
    
                             Defense
                             tot.  rush   pass
New Orleans                1053    266    787
Philadelphia               1391    468    923
Washington                 1398    583    815
Atlanta                    1420    711    709
San Francisco              1448    563    885
Los Angeles                1502    575    927
New York                   1561    579    982
Detroit                    1588    521   1067
Tampa Bay                  1809    765   1044
Green Bay                  1923    458   1465
Phoenix                    1934    810   1124
Chicago                    1936    736   1200
Dallas                     1937    508   1429
Minnesota                  2055    838   1217
        
                  AMERICAN FOOTBALL CONFERENCE
                             Scoring
Touchdowns                    td rsh rec ret pts
Okoye, KC                      5   5   0   0  30
Pinkett, Hou                   5   4   1   0  30
Baxter, NY                     4   4   0   0  24
Beebe, Buf                     4   0   4   0  24
Clayton, Mia                   4   0   4   0  24
Thomas, Buf                    4   2   2   0  24
    
Kicking             	      ep-a  fg-a  lg pts
Jaeger, LA           	       7-7 14-15  49  49
Leahy, NY                    12-12 12-17  40  48
Treadwell, Den               14-14 10-13  47  44
Howfield, Hou                18-19  8-10  46  42
Norwood, Buf                 21-21  7-12  52  42
Kasay, Sea                   12-12  9-13  45  39
Anderson, Pit                13-13   8-9  49  37
Carney, SD                   10-10  9-14  48  37
Stoyanovich, Mia               6-6 10-11  53  36
Lowery, KC                   11-11  7-10  41  32
Staurovsky, NE                 6-6  8-10  39  30
Stover, Cle                    7-7   7-8  45  28
Breech, Cin                    8-8   4-5  46  20
Biasucci, Ind                  4-4  5-12  54  19
    
Passing                        att cmp   pct  yds td int
Kelly, Buf                     206 143  69.4 1833 14   5
Kosar, Cle                     140  86  61.4  873  5   0
Moon, Hou                      183 108  59.0 1400  8   4
Elway, Den                     181 101  55.8 1355  6   2
Marino, Mia                    191 108  56.5 1366  7   3
Brister, Pit                   120  75  62.5  956  6   6
DeBerg, KC                     156  93  59.6  939  6   4
O'Brien, NY                    166 103  62.0 1141  2   3
George, Ind                    204 133  65.2 1302  3   5
Schroeder, LA                  142  72  50.7  910  6   5
Esiason, Cin                   149  79  53.0 1030  4   7
Friesz, SD                     172  81  47.1  926  5   5
Millen, NE                      85  51  60.0  550  1   5
Kemp, Sea                      156  84  53.8 1060  3   9
    
                         Pass Receivers
Receptions           	       no  yds   avg  td
Blades, Sea                    36  516  14.3   2
Reed, Buf                      35  484  13.8   3
Thomas, Buf                    34  333   9.8   2
Johnson, Ind                   34  310   9.1   0
Cook, NE                       34  282   8.3   2
Dickerson, Ind                 32  197   6.2   1
Moore, NY                      28  431  15.4   3
Clayton, Mia                   28  428  15.3   4
Jeffires, Hou                  27  323  12.0   3
Beebe, Buf                     26  331  12.7   4
Lofton, Buf                    24  457  19.0   2
Williams, Sea                  24  219   9.1   0
Givins, Hou                    22  392  17.8   1
Brooks, Ind                    22  342  15.5   1
Kane, Sea                      22  340  15.5   2
Toon, NY                       22  309  14.0   0
Fryar, NE                      22  251  11.4   0
    
Yards                        yds   no   avg  td
Blades, Sea                  516   36  14.3   2
Reed, Buf                    484   35  13.8   3
Lofton, Buf                  457   24  19.0   2
Moore, NY                    431   28  15.4   3
Clayton, Mia                 428   28  15.3   4
Givins, Hou                  392   22  17.8   1
Brooks, Ind                  342   22  15.5   1
Kane, Sea                    340   22  15.5   2
Thomas, Buf                  333   34   9.8   2
Beebe, Buf                   331   26  12.7   4
Duper, Mia                   324   21  15.4   2
Green, Pit                   324   20  16.2   3
Jeffires, Hou                323   27  12.0   3
Jackson, Den                 320   17  18.8   0
Johnson, Ind                 310   34   9.1   0
Toon, NY                     309   22  14.0   0
        
Interceptions                  no  yds  lg td
Byrd, SD                       4   35  22  0
Harper, Sea                    3   84  43  0
Atwater, Den                   3   55  46  0
D.Smith, Den                   3   49  39  0
Dishman, Hou                   3   43  43  0
Lewis, KC                      3   21  21  0
Washington, LA                 3    6   5  0
    
Rushing                       att  yds  avg  lg td
Thomas, Buf                   106  556  5.2  33  2
Green, Den                    125  554  4.4 t63  3
Okoye, KC                     114  519  4.6  48  5
Bernstine, SD                 102  482  4.7  27  2
Higgs, Mia                    122  459  3.8  24  2
Thomas, NY                     88  364  4.1  25  0
Pinkett, Hou                   82  342  4.2 t31  4
Foster, Pit                    61  332  5.4 t56  1
Brooks, Cin                    67  295  4.4  25  1
Dickerson, Ind                 93  284  3.1  27  1
Russell, NE                    76  275  3.6  24  1
Williams, Sea                  66  273  4.1 t35  2
Craig, LA                      83  272  3.3  11  0
Butts, SD                      48  243  5.1  44  2
Fenner, Sea                    71  221  3.1  15  3
Baxter, NY                     54  203  3.8  13  4
    
Punting                         no lg  avg bk x-net
Roby, Mia                       26 58 46.5  1  34.6
Stark, Ind                      28 65 43.1  0  33.2
Gossett, LA                     24 52 43.0  0  38.1
Hansen, Cle                     27 57 42.9  0  35.7
Kidd, SD                        26 55 42.0  0  32.1
GrMontgomery, Hou               14 50 41.6  0  36.5
Johnson, Cin                    21 59 41.0  0  32.9
Aguiar, NY                      21 61 40.4  0  32.8
Stryzinski, Pit                 23 50 40.3  0  35.3
Barker, KC                      26 55 40.0  0  33.2
Horan, Den                      27 59 38.4  1  32.9
McCarthy, NE                    19 51 37.7  0  33.3
Mohr, Buf                       18 54 36.6  0  34.0
    
        x-net (team efficiency) -- Total punt yards minus return yards,
minus 20 yards for each punt over goal line divided by total attempts
including punts blocked.
Punt Returns                   no  yds   avg  lg td
Woodson, Pit                    9  161  17.9  40  0
Warren, Sea                    17  200  11.8 t59  1
Brown, LA                       9  102  11.3  23  0
Metcalf, Cle                    9   90  10.0  30  0
Henderson, NE                   8   72   9.0  39  0
F.Jones, KC                    12  108   9.0  25  0
Miller, Mia                    12   92   7.7  15  0
Edwards, Buf                    9   67   7.4  21  0
Verdin, Ind                     8   43   5.4  16  0
Coleman, Hou                   11   38   3.5  16  0
    
Kickoff Returns                no  yds   avg  lg td
Lewis, SD                      12  290  24.2  56  0
Elder, SD                      11  257  23.4  42  0
Warren, Sea                    11  249  22.6  42  0
Craver, Mia                    12  258  21.5  49  0
Ball, Cin                      12  241  20.1  24  0
Graddy, LA                     12  241  20.1  37  0
Woodson, Pit                   13  260  20.0  42  0
Edwards, Buf                   14  275  19.6  28  0
Mathis, NY                     16  313  19.6  50  0
Holland, LA                     8  154  19.3  24  0
                              Sacks
Fuller, Hou 6.0
D.Thomas, KC 5.5
Kennedy, Sea 5.0
Smith, KC 5.0
Townsend, LA 5.0
Tippett, NE 4.5
        
                  NATIONAL FOOTBALL CONFERENCE
                             Scoring
Touchdowns                    td rsh rec ret pts
B.Sanders, Det                 7   7   0   0  42
Anderson, Chi                  6   4   2   0  36
Rice, SF                       6   0   6   0  36
Delpino, LA                    5   5   0   0  30
Green, Det                     5   0   5   0  30
Riggs, Was                     5   5   0   0  30
E.Smith, Dal                   5   4   1   0  30
    
Kicking                       ep-a  fg-a  lg pts
Lohmiller, Was               21-21 14-17  53  63
Bahr, NY                       8-8 13-17  49  47
G.Davis, Phx                   8-8 12-17  52  44
Andersen, NO                 13-13 10-10  47  43
Willis, Dal                  13-13  8-12  54  37
Murray, Det                  15-15  7-12  47  36
Ruzek, Phi                     9-9  9-11  47  36
Butler, Chi                  10-10   7-9  46  31
Christie, TB                   7-7  8-12  38  31
Zendejas, LA                   7-7   8-8  50  31
Cofer, SF                    11-11  6-10  47  29
Jacke, GB                      9-9   6-8  42  27
Reveiz, Min                    6-7   7-7  49  27
N.Johnson, Atl                 4-5   2-4  36  10
    
Passing                       att cmp   pct  yds td int
Young, SF                     151  96  63.6 1290  8   4
Aikman, Dal                   192 125  65.1 1342  7   3
Rypien, Was                   145  90  62.1 1156  8   6
McMahon, Phi                  125  80  64.0  955  4   3
Hostetler, NY                 165 110  66.7 1257  3   3
Hebert, NO                    138  80  58.0  936  6   4
Harbaugh, Chi                 187 107  57.2 1272  5   6
Tupa, Phx                     167  93  55.7 1246  5   7
Peete, Det                    167  99  59.3 1126  5   8
Testaverde, TB                128  63  49.2  790  2   4
Everett, LA                   132  73  55.3  904  0   5
Miller, Atl                   156  83  53.2 1013  5   9
Majkowski, GB                 153  78  51.0  920  2   7
Wilson, Min                   122  72  59.0  825  3  10
    
                         Pass Receivers
Receptions           	       no  yds   avg  td
Novacek, Dal                   30  306  10.2   3
E.Jones, Phx                   28  437  15.6   2
Irvin, Dal                     28  399  14.3   3
Clark, Was                     26  386  14.8   2
Davis, Chi                     26  380  14.6   2
E.Smith, Dal                   26  138   5.3   1
Sharpe, GB                     25  357  14.3   1
Clark, Det                     23  359  15.6   1
Barnett, Phi                   23  322  14.0   2
Byars, Phi                     23  286  12.4   2
Rice, SF                       22  445  20.2   6
Ingram, NY                     22  333  15.1   0
C.Carter, Min                  22  239  10.9   2
Proehl, Phx                    21  369  17.6   1
Jordan, Min                    21  238  11.3   1
Anderson, Chi                  21  179   8.5   2
Meggett, NY                    21  179   8.5   1
    
Yards                        yds   no   avg  td
Rice, SF                     445   22  20.2   6
E.Jones, Phx                 437   28  15.6   2
Irvin, Dal                   399   28  14.3   3
Clark, Was                   386   26  14.8   2
Davis, Chi                   380   26  14.6   2
Proehl, Phx                  369   21  17.6   1
Clark, Det                   359   23  15.6   1
Sharpe, GB                   357   25  14.3   1
Ingram, NY                   333   22  15.1   0
Barnett, Phi                 322   23  14.0   2
Novacek, Dal                 306   30  10.2   3
Kemp, GB                     287   19  15.1   1
Monk, Was                    287   19  15.1   4
Byars, Phi                   286   23  12.4   2
Ellard, LA                   286   18  15.9   0
        
Interceptions                  no  yds  lg td
Green, Was                     4   36  24  0
Marshall, Was                  3   61 t54  1
Joyner, Phi                    3   41  41  0
Paul, Chi                      3   21  10  0
Allen, Phi                     3   11   7  0
Holt, Dal                      3    2   2  0
    
Rushing                       att  yds  avg  lg td
B.Sanders, Det                132  640  4.8 t69  7
E.Smith, Dal                  129  639  5.0 t75  4
Byner, Was                    129  526  4.1  25  3
Walker, Min                    92  401  4.4  49  1
Anderson, Chi                 104  353  3.4 t42  4
Hampton, NY                    65  348  5.4  44  4
Delpino, LA                    83  293  3.5  36  5
Johnson, Phx                   73  269  3.7  20  0
Fenerty, NO                    54  253  4.7  54  0
Heyward, NO                    62  221  3.6  15  4
Thompson, Phx                  77  217  2.8  15  0
Riggs, Was                     47  197  4.2  32  5
Sherman, Phi                   74  194  2.6  12  0
Tillman, NY                    39  178  4.6  17  0
G.Anderson, TB                 43  176  4.1 t64  1
Henderson, SF                  33  176  5.3  19  1
    
Punting                         no lg  avg bk x-net
Newsome, Min                    27 60 46.9  0  37.2
Barnhardt, NO                   27 61 45.1  0  37.9
Camarillo, Phx                  22 53 43.8  0  35.8
Fulhage, Atl                    25 58 43.2  0  34.2
Feagles, Phi                    36 77 43.1  0  37.1
Saxon, Dal                      21 62 42.2  0  33.6
Landeta, NY                     19 61 41.4  0  34.4
Mojsiejenko, SF                 16 55 41.0  0  29.7
McJulien, GB                    34 56 40.6  0  34.5
Arnold, Det                     18 63 39.7  0  29.6
Royals, TB                      32 56 39.6  0  30.1
Buford, Chi                     30 58 39.1  0  33.7
Hatcher, LA                     25 52 36.7  0  33.6
    
        x-net (team efficiency) -- Total punt yards minus return yards,
minus 20 yards for each punt over goal line divided by total attempts
including punts blocked.
Punt Returns                   no  yds   avg  lg td
Mitchell, Was                  20  343  17.2 t69  2
Gray, Det                      13  202  15.5  42  0
Taylor, SF                      9  127  14.1  24  0
Sikahema, GB                   11  144  13.1  62  0
Lewis, Min                     11  112  10.2  44  0
Sanders, Atl                   13  125   9.6  23  0
Harris, Phi                    25  238   9.5  34  0
Meggett, NY                    15  132   8.8  16  0
Bailey, Chi                    16  140   8.8  37  0
V.Buck, NO                     21  164   7.8  18  0
    
Kickoff Returns                no  yds   avg  lg td
Gray, Det                      17  438  25.8  56  0
Turner, LA                      7  163  23.3  36  0
Dixon, Dal                     15  338  22.5  39  0
D.Carter, SF                   10  216  21.6  52  0
Sikahema, GB                   10  214  21.4  35  0
Nelson, Min                     9  184  20.4  29  0
Bailey, Chi                    12  238  19.8  29  0
Meggett, NY                    15  279  18.6  25  0
Sanders, Atl                    9  161  17.9  26  0
Harris, Phi                     9  148  16.4  33  0
R.Hill, Mia-Phx                 9  146  16.2  33  0
    
                              Sacks
Paup, GB 7.5
Simmons, Phi 6.5
Jackson, NO 6.0
Mann, Was 6.0
Harvey, Phx 5.0
Stokes, Was 5.0
Taylor, NY 5.0
White, Phi 5.0
Brown, Phi 4.5
    

Vancouver, BC is a good 2&1/2 hours away from seattle. There's a lot of NFL 
teams that are around as close. Plus the Northwest is so packed with NFL fans
the Seahawks won't take any sort of attendence beating.

Actually I hear that the CFL is expanding. They are looking at Portland for a 
CFL franchise. I love watching the CFL games, No mutant 350 pound slabs o' flesh,
no minimum 6 foot QB's. No 3 yards and a cloud of turf, no sissy touchbacks in
the endzone and no TV timeouts.

Metz

Metz...

Ask JD about the two Vancouver fans we met lasted year, eh, when they
were down in Seattle for Boxing Day weekend, eh....

8^)

    I heard Portland and Detriot/Windsor were under consideration for
    CFL sites...

    re .566
    
    Actuall FaKe, if Moon is just asking that the terms of his contract be
    met, why are you saying that he is whining ?
    
    Because you can't say anything else bad about him, because he's better
    than any QB the Squeelers have had in a LOOOOONNNG time - if ever !
    ===========================
    
    Moon's contract says that if he finishes in the Top 3 in the NFL, he
    gets a bonus which is equal to the avg. salary of the other two QB's.
    If I'm correct that mean's that you add, then divide by 2 Jim Kelly's 
    salary with that of Joe Montana.
    
    Moon should be looking at a $2 million bonus, but the Oiler's are saying
    that they can't figure out who his making what .... utter B.S. and
    everyone knows it ...

�    Moon should be looking at a $2 million bonus, but the Oiler's are saying
�    that they can't figure out who his making what .... utter B.S. and
�    everyone knows it ...
    
    As I said earlier, Moon himself said that it is difficult determining
    exactly what other players in the NFL.  He said this in an interview on
    NBC's pre-game show last Sunday.  Moon mentioned that a lot of guys
    have confidentiality agreements in their contract.  This isn't so far
    fetched when you think of all of those "terms not disclosed, but it is
    estimated at..." reports every year around signing time.

 and the Oilers just got done screwing Terry Kinard. No me thinks Warren
 is just be a gentleman to the organization by saying it's hard to figure
 out who's making what. Cmon on now we're talking about the Good Ole boys
 here of the NFL. These guys sleep together for christsakes....

 mike

    Thanks Mike ... the Kinard (attempted) screwing was so low, I thought 
    Taglibue would have stepped in, but I then remembered who signs his checks.
    
    I'm quite sure a neutral arbitrator could step in and determine what
    the other QB's are making, if the Oilers' mgt. wasn't equal opportunity
    a$$holes, I rated them as the most racist in sports. However, I think
    Childress has held out, and so did Harvey Salem a few years ago. 
    
    Bud Adams is just a classless jerk, who can make old Vic Kiam look like
    a prince ....
    
    Doc 

    Does any one know what happened after the New Orleans-Philly game
    yesterday? I was listening to the game on the radio when I thought
    I heard them say that some Phily player  jump on Martin while the
    two teams were walking off the field...
    
    REK

 Andre Waters ran clear across the field and jumped on Eric Martin after the
 gun. Not too cool. he'll probably get suspended. Depends upon what the good
 ole boys tell Taggy what to do....

 mike