Conference 7.286::sports_91

    The new home for TV baseball, CBS, will be televising a whopping 16
    regular season games in 1991.

�    The new home for TV baseball, CBS, will be televising a whopping 16
�    regular season games in 1991.


Thank God!  Now maybe they'll have some decent programming on 8^)

I like baseball, but it seemed that over the summer wherever I turned
the channel there was baseball.  CBS, ABC, ESPN, TNT, WTXX-20 (mets),
Channel 26 in New London (Yankees)...  


Could it be CBS lost money on baseball?

'saw

�Could it be CBS lost money on baseball?
    
    Absolutely.  I believe they are trying to get some of their money back. 
    That doesn't have anything to do with the number of games scheduled
    though.  I think 16 games is an increase over last year's coverage.

�I think 16 games is an increase over last year's coverage.

Oh, I didn't realize that.

It seemed every time I turned on CBS this summer they had baseball
on.


'Saw

    Today's paper says that the Pirates agreed to a one-year, $450,000
    contract with free-agent infielder Curtis Wilkerson.
    
    Um...who's that?
    
    	--dan'l

    Wilkerson also spent a couple years with the Cubs...generic mediocre
    utility type player...
    
    
    py

    OK Y'all,
    
    Get thee to a punnery.  
    
    Go directly to note 69.  Do not pass Go.  Do not collect $200.

    I'm really suprised that this didn't get a play in this note.
    
    Former San Diego Padre 2B/CF Alan Wiggins, died earlier this week of
    AIDS-related complications. He was 32.
    
    In 1984, Wiggins was the catalyst behind the Padres drive to the
    National League pennant, as he stole 70 bases and scored 106 runs.
    However, the next season, drug problems caused him to be suspended,
    then dropped from the Pads. (San Diego never recovered from his loss in
    the lineup.) He was picked up by Baltimore, but he had a relaspe and
    ended up out of baseball.
    
    By the time of his death, he had melted down to 75 lbs. He is survived
    by a wife and three children. 
    
    What is really sad is that for all of the friends that he was supposed
    to have had in the game, only Steve Garvey represented the Pads at his
    funeral (a man with whom Wiggins supposedly didn't get along with). Lee
    Lacy represented the O's.
    
    I assume that his contraction of AIDS was realted to his drug use.
    
    RIP alan.
    
    Doc

    Yeah I had heard this too!  He had a great post season performance in
    '84!
    
    Mike

    Too bad it wasn't good enough... (ha ha)
    
    I heard rumors it was AIDS related, but didn't hear confirmation.

    Yeah, when I read that he died of pnemonia, and some other aliments, I
    immeaditely thought AIDS, esp. in light of his past drug use. I'm sorry
    that I was right ... :-(

Doug Drabek went to arbitration.
result= $3,335,000.00
per year

maybe I'll tell my kid he can quit school and just throw a baseball six
hours a day.

Mike JN

Hey, for that kind of $$$$, maybe I'll go to arbitration.

I can't pitch worth a darn, but he, maybe I can pick up over 100K,
which is far more than I make here...

'Saw

    Here, if you go to arbitration, they encourage you to become a free
    agent ...

The following players are the 29 remaining free agents:

AMERICAN LEAGUE 
--------------- 
Baltimore Orioles (2) -- Ron Kittle, Joe Price
Boston Red Sox (1) -- Danny Heep
California Angels (2) -- Brian Downing, Greg Minton
Cleveland Indians (3) -- Tom Brookens, Candy Maldonado, Ken Phelps
Detroit Tigers (3) -- Darnell Coles, Larry Sheets, Gary Ward
Kansas City Royals (2) -- Steve Jeltz, Frank White
Milwaukee Brewers (1) -- Paul Mirabella
Oakland Athletics (2) -- Ron Hassey, Willie Randolph
Toronto Blue Jays (1) -- John Candelaria


NATIONAL LEAGUE
---------------- 
Cincinnati Reds (2) -- Rick Mahler, Ron Oester
Los Angeles Dodgers (1) -- Rick Dempsey
Montreal Expos (1) -- Dave Schmidt
Pittsburgh Pirates (2) -- Doug Bair, Jerry Reuss
St. Louis Cardinals (3) -- Tom Niedenfuer, John Tudor, Denny Walling
San Diego Padres (1) -- Fred Lynn
San Francisco Giants (2) -- Gary Carter, Mark Thurmond.

    re .16:
    
    Several of the players listed have received invitations to spring
    training as non-roster players: Larry Sheets with the O's, Ron Hassey
    with Montreal, Rick Dempsey with the Brewers, and Gary Carter with the
    Dodgers.  I think Candelaria also got an invite to the Dodgers camp,
    but I'm not positive.  
    
    I'm shocked that Candy Maldonado still remains available...
    
    
    py

    The Braves signed Dave Justice to a one-year contract. Does anyone know
    for how much? Why didn't the Braves sign him to a multi-year contract?
    Is it because he needs to prove himself this year  or cause he can't 
    be a free agent for 3 years?
    
    Thanks,
    The Thrill

    Right-hander Dwight Gooden does an about-face, deciding his agent may 
    reopen contract negotiations with the New York Mets.
    
    Will The Thrill

    NL expansion committee will visit Denver today, the last of their
    visits to prospective expansion cities.  During their visit, they will
    tour the location of a new ballpark and Mile High Stadium, which is
    where an expansion team would play its first 2 seasons while the new
    park is being built.  A decision on the 2 expansion cities could come
    as early as mid-June.
    
    Joe

    re .20:
    
    I can imagine the "altitude effects" ratholes that would take place in
    this conference if Denver got a MLB team...
    
    
    py

    Take it to the bank...
    
    Buffalo is a shoe in for 1 franchise.
    
    Washington has a toe up on Denver for the second.
    
    As for the Florida entries; can you imagine playing baseball in July in
    Joe Robbie Stadium? 
    
    Orlando is for Mickey and Goofey - not baseball - besides, it's too
    hot.
    
    Tampa-St Pete has the best shot since they have a dome but that is
    precisely WHY I would not like to see a team go there. Baseball is for
    outdoors on real grass.
    
    Rich
    

>    Buffalo is a shoe in for 1 franchise.
    
    I'm curious why YOU think so.  I know why Buffalo SHOULD get it, but
    being from Buffalo, I have a strong feeling they won't.  It's just a 
    law of nature.  Buffalo is not a sexy town.  Sure they have a new
    stadium that is absolutely beautiful (I've been at a Buffalo Bison's
    game), they broke minor league records for attendance, they are a 
    sports town in the sense that NYC, Boston and Chicago are, etc...
    BUT NOOOOOO... (ahem, let me stop here)
    
    So why do you think so.
    
    -Paul 
    (Buffalonian in CT)

>    -Paul 
>    (Buffalonian in CT)

Let me correct that for you:

	-Paul
	(Baloney-an in CT)

HTH,
'Saw

                                               
    Everything I've read has said that Florida has one franchise locked up,
    with an outside chance of taking both.  The AL has complained that the
    second Florida franchise should be left to them for a later expansion.
    
    glenn
      

    I've heard and would agree that Florida has 1 franchise locked up. 
    Buffalo's biggest problems are that it only has a population of about
    1.2 million in its metropolitan area, plus Toronto and Cleveland are
    both only about 3 hours away.  I would be very suprised if Buffalo got
    one of the teams.
    
    Joe

    re .23
    
    Paul, I feel Buffalo is a lock because it has demonstrated such a
    strong support for baseball. 
    
    Attendance in Florida in the summer is a risk. Washington has failed on
    two occasions. Seattle has proven to be a disappointment as has
    Atlanta.
    
    Baseball wants to be assured that the cities chosen will support the
    franchise and I believe Buffalo has shown this better than any
    prospective city.
    
    As far as nthe proximity to Cleveland and Tornonto, I don't see this as
    a problem because we're talking National League. As far as 1.2 million
    in the metro area, how many are in the St Louis area? Or Kansas City?
    Both franchises draw quite well.
    
    Rich
    

    	Buffalo will support the team Rich, but the potential for cable
    revenue and pay per view revenue is greater in Miami or any other
    Florida city.  The Buffalo could very well support this team with
    sellout crowds, but if the television revenue isn't there the team
    will operae at a financial loss.  The live gate cannot finance a
    team's expenses.
    
    				/Don

    
    The Slasher's got it right-- Buffalo is *not* a lock.  They're
    officially still in the hunt, but one of the expansion committee 
    members even went so far as to make the rather damning statement 
    on the official visit the other day of "It'd be nice if you had 
    another million people".
    
    Washington very definitely could support a franchise.  Previous
    evidence that they can't is misleading, given the growth of the area
    and construction of one of the best public transportation systems in
    the country since the last move.  Between Cal Griffith and Bob Short, 
    DC was saddled with two of the most cheap-assed, short-sighted owners 
    in the history of baseball, too.  I'll go on record as saying that 
    the franchise that eventually ends up in DC will be better off 
    financially than either of the previous two that fled for Minnesota 
    and Texas is right now. 
    
    For my own personal, selfish reasons, I'd like to see the two
    franchises end up in Buffalo and Washington.  Realistically, though,
    it's going to be Florida and probably either Denver or Washington.
    
    glenn
    

    Good point, Don. However, is Buffalo any less attractive than Milwaukee
    or Seattle for TV? Or Montreal, for that matter?
    
    I think a local TV station up there could do pretty well with them.If
    they created a network that included much of northen New York that
    included Syracuse, Utica and Rochester, your talking some huge
    potential there.
    
    As far as DC. If they are planning on playing at RFK, you are correct
    in that it is on a stop for the Metro. But, sad to say, most games at
    home will be night games and that area of DC is STILL not an attractive
    geographic place to be at night. It's a 1/2 hour away from Baltimore
    and, to get there from northern Virginia is a traffic nightmare. But,
    if they could pull in 15K-20K a game, they would do well with local TV
    and radio contracts. I still don't think ole Faye wants to see empty
    seats.
    
    Rich
    

    What I think this committee will find attractive about St. Petersberg
    and DC is that they both have facilities and could start play tomorrow.
    All the other sites involve new stadiums or expansion of an existing
    one. 
    
    Or do they already have an expansion year set?
    
    	--dan'l

>    What I think this committee will find attractive about St. Petersberg
>    and DC is that they both have facilities and could start play tomorrow.
>    All the other sites involve new stadiums or expansion of an existing
>    one. 
    
    The problem with DC is that they would be sharing a stadium with the
    Redskins, and the NL has said they prefer a baseball-only stadium. 
    This could hurt DC.  I don't think they have any plans to build a new
    baseball stadium in DC.  Denver could also start play tomorrow.  The
    plan right now is they would play 2 years in Mile High, and then move
    into the new stadium.  The stadium has already been approved by voters
    and will be built if Denver is awarded a team.  Mile High would need
    some minor changes to accomodate Major League baseball for a couple
    years, but that is no big deal.
    
>    Or do they already have an expansion year set?
    
    The 2 expansion teams will start playing in the 1993 season.
    
    Joe                  
 

>    All the other sites involve new stadiums or expansion of an existing
>    one. 
    
    The Buffalo Bisons (Pirates AAA team) currently play in a brand new 
    stadium (Pilot's field).  It's ready to go.  Additional seating can be 
    added between seasons (it was designed to do so).  So in Buffalo's case, 
    I don't think that's an issue.
    
    As for Buffalo's population supporting the team enough through TV
    revenue (I agree that the bucks to be made are in TV not at the gate),
    just look at the Bills.  They are keeping some very expensive players
    on their roster and are doing quite well.  They have the support of the
    fans and because they fill Rich stadium all the other (and I mean
    pretty darn near ALL the other) 1.2 million will watch the game on the
    tube. Also, Rochester is only 70 miles from Buffalo and Syracuse is
    only 120 miles.  Currently, these cities plus Buffalo are Yankee
    territory, but if a National League team was brought in it would be
    supported.
    

    That reminds me of something I've been wanting to know for the past few
    years, Joe.  What type of baseball are they using Mile High for now? 
    Minor league?  I ask because at the beginning of every NFL season, Mile
    High is showing a baseball field as well.  That's an awfully big
    stadium for minor league ball.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .34:
    
    The Denver Zephyrs (Brewers' AAA team) currently play in Mile High.
    
    
    py

    Mile High Stadium was originally built for baseball and was originally
    named Bears Stadium.  The east stands (the ones you see on TV, across
    from the cameras) weren't there originally, and they just set up
    temporary bleachers for football season.  As the Broncos became more
    popular, the movable east stands, were installed.  The last phase of
    expansion took place just before the '77 season (just in time for the
    Broncos' 1st Super Bowl season) and involved the 3rd deck being added
    around the whole stadium, except for the open end, of course.  So
    that's why a AAA team is playing in such a big stadium: it wasn't
    originally very big and was built for baseball.  Also, they added some
    luxury skyboxes along the top of the west side of the stadium a few
    years ago.
    
    Joe

    	Rich those small market teams you mention are having trouble
    surviving financially and true the Buffalo football team is making
    money, but other than the few stars there are no long term guaranteed
    contracts and with the NFL players union being so weak it'll be
    some time before the salaries will escalate like they have in baseball.
    
    	The way for the league's smaller market teams to survive is
    for the Yankees and the large market teams to share their local
    cable revenues.  It will not happen until the league almost fails,
    but it will have to happen or the Seattles Pittsburghs etc. will
    only serve as minor league franchises to the big markets.  I'm not
    saying this guarantees winning championships for the rich teams,
    but it will guarantee their making money, while the smaller franchises
    fail.
    
    				/Don

    Buffalo is drawing great now, but don't forget they just won the AFC
    title and have won 3 straight AFC East titles.  How were they doing
    before Jim Kelly came to town?  If I remember right, they were one of
    the league's poorer-drawing teams at the time.
    
    Joe

    RE: Buffalo Bills
    
   >If I remember right, they were one of the league's poorer-drawing teams at 
    the time.  
    
    Negatory!  When they were winning 2-4 games per season, granted they
    weren't selling out, but they would draw a pretty good size crowd
    (better than most any other city that has a 2-14 team).  Face it,
    Buffalo is a blue collar town that will look for any good excuse to
    swill beer.  Buffalo is comparable (people-wise) to Cleveland or
    Chicago (just smaller).  Weren't the Browns still packing them in after
    this miserable season?
    

    re the last couple:
    
    Also, the Pirates' AAA team in Buffalo drew over one million fans in
    1988 despite finishing 13(?) games out of first.
    
    
     py

The reasons the mariners don't get any support in Seattle are many.

1) The team has sucked for most of it's existance. They've never had a .500 
    season in 14 years of existance.

2) Owners with financial difficulty. Now the Latest owner Smulyan is supposedly
    in difficulty with his radio empire.

3) They play in a stinking dome. When you have 7 months of crappy weather, 2  
    months of so-so weather punctuated by 3 months of good weather would you
    want to spend any of the time of good weather sitting inside a concrete
    structure watching a B-bal team play? The local minor league clubs that play
    outdoors draw decent crowds.


Luckily the emergence of Griffey Jr. could turn around the fortunes of the 
mariners.....It's all wait and see right now....

BTW - the M's bring in a total of $25 million/year in all local broadcast rights
       to their games. The Yankees have a $100 million cable deal alone.....

Metz

                
    It may be complete misperception, but I see both Denver and Buffalo as
    great football towns, regardless of their teams' records.  I don't 
    know if they'd do as well with baseball, though, but Buffalo has 
    proved some level of support in the recent past if not throughout 
    their minor league history.  I'm more skeptical of Denver.
    
    Rather than continuous expansion, maybe it's not a bad idea to
    circulate some of the weaker franchises after a certain period of 
    proven non-performance and non-support from both local ownership 
    and/or the fans.  Again from my personal vantage point and with no 
    offense to anyone from these cities, I'd say Montreal and Seattle 
    are ripe for moves to greener pastures, with teams like Houston and 
    Cleveland trailing close behind.  I'd include Atlanta, too, but 
    those poor people have never really been given a chance, and perhaps
    have suffered enough.
    
    glenn
        

    I remember several years ago a shot of two lone fans at a Bills' game
    doing their own private, two-man wave.  One would stand up, then sit
    down while the other one stood up, then sat down, while the other...
    One of the funniest "fan things" I've ever seen.
    
    No one else was in sight.  That would indicate that they weren't
    drawing very well.
    
    	--dan'l

    	Metz, you sure about the 25 million figure?  Sounds high.  But
    the point I am making is if Seattle can't afford to pay Griffey
    around 7-9 million (don't laugh) when he becomes eligible for free
    agency down the road they are doomed to this cycle of getting young
    players, developing them, watching them become stars and then losing
    them.  And the league is worse off for it.
    
    				/Don

    I thought the figure was closer to 3 million for the Mariners.
    
    JD

Last I heard was that the 25 million was from all tv and radio rights for a 
season. The yankess are pulling in 100 Mill in cable alone (like sportschannel),
not counting radio, local broadcast (ala 38 for the Sox) and other cable (PIX).

However I could be mistaken. I don't have the article any more. If somebody is
positive it's another number then I'll go with it.

I agree with Don that if the M's can't afford to fork over the big bucks when
Junior comes up for his next contract then they are doomed to be a minor league
franchise to the other more lucrative clubs. Also what few fans they have 
here will desert them if they don't sign .Jr and they should probably move to
another city.

Seattle is and always will be primarily a football city. It's probably close
to PitsburgH in many respects.


Metz

    
> Last I heard was that the 25 million was from all tv and radio rights for a 
> season. The yankess are pulling in 100 Mill in cable alone (like sportschannel),
> not counting radio, local broadcast (ala 38 for the Sox) and other cable (PIX).

    The Mariners are taking in about $10 million from CBS and $4 million
    from ESPN like everyone else.  That'd make $11 million from other
    sources, which sounds high but maybe the local outlets are getting
    taken to the cleaners, who knows.  By comparison, from today's Globe 
    the Brewers are taking in only $5 million from local sources, and I 
    thought that Seattle was in that ballpark.  The Red Sox take in $20 
    million from local TV, cable, and radio; the Yankees $50 million from
    MSG cable alone.
    
    I'd like to see MLB move towards dividing up the TV/radio money, but
    leave gate receipts (which seem to be more equitable, and more 
    a function of team performance) alone in order to maintain some 
    competition between clubs.  For those that think this is unfair to 
    teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox and more than a bit 
    socialistic, consider that baseball does hold an antitrust exemption 
    which legally prevents further expansion into markets like New York 
    and Boston, and protects any dilution of broadcast revenues for the
    owners of those ballclubs.  I for one would love to see National 
    League baseball in Boston, for instance, and would gladly pay money 
    to do so.  With the help of the government, MLB has made that an
    impossibility, though.
    
    glenn                     
    

 If Seattle really wants a $100,000,000 broadcast TV deal, it should add
 about 6 or 7 million people to its population base first.   There is a
 reason why some things seem just a little bigger in New York City.
 
 Also, there is virtually *NO* comparison that can or should be made
 between a city's football fans and its baseball fans.   The Buffalo Bills
 draw well because they have a good team and also because they only play 8
 regular season games plus pre-season and playoff games there every year.  
 
 Baseball teams play 81 games a year at home.   It's very easy to fill the
 stands for the annual Bills-Dolphins game.  It'll be very hard to get the
 same 30,000 plus to come out every single night for baseball.
 
 Bob Hunt

    re .42
    
    The idea of rotating border-line major league franchises is an
    intriguing one. One of the problems is that once a city loses a team
    (often not by fan support--Brooklyn) it is next to impossible for them 
    to get one back. 
    
    In European pro soccer, teams that finish last (usually the bottom 2 of
    a 16 to 18 team league, depending on the country) drop to the 2nd
    division (Triple A) and are replaced by the top 2 teams. So if a team
    hits the skids for a while, they can rebuild, then get themselves back
    in the big leagues IF they deserve it. 
    
    If baseball were to keep the 12 team leagues (keep the NL style
    schedule) and relegate a team every year, cities like Louisville, 
    Buffalo, Denver, Washington, etc. could have their chance, but if 
    they didn't survive, they just go back to being a triple A team.
    This way teams like the Indians and Braves would have to show a
    comittmet to at least TRY to be competitive. Geez, the Tribe hasn't
    been in a pennant race since the Eisenhower administration.
    
    Louisville is a case in point. A few years ago Jim Bunning was lobbying
    for expansion for Louisville (he's now a Kentucky senator), pointing to
    the good crowds they were getting. The thing was (is?) at that time the
    Reds were really stinking the joint out, and weren't drawing too well.
    Obviously, fans from Kentucky watched the Redbirds instead of the Reds
    if they were to go to a game. I wonder what kind of crowds Louisville
    draws NOW?
       
    The problem would be that the Louisville or Buffalo teams that could be
    border line ML cities would be stocked with farmhands belonging to
    major league teams. In soccer, the smaller teams are independent, and
    instead of Joe Prospect being called up to the bigs, Smallville United
    F.C. sells the Kid to Liverpool for 100,000 to 250,000 pounds, that is 
    used for operating expenses, or perhaps to buy players from teams even 
    lower on the food-chain. It probably works out the same in terms of how 
    much to the big boys spend on player development, but the small clubs CAN 
    make a run at the big time. 
    
    Tom

    >Louisville is a case in point. A few years ago Jim Bunning was lobbying
    >for expansion for Louisville (he's now a Kentucky senator), pointing to
    >the good crowds they were getting. The thing was (is?) at that time the
    >Reds were really stinking the joint out, and weren't drawing too well.
    >Obviously, fans from Kentucky watched the Redbirds instead of the Reds
    >if they were to go to a game. I wonder what kind of crowds Louisville
    >draws NOW?
    
    The Louisville Cardinals still draw extremely well.  They are a case
    study in *excellently* run businesses.  I saw a recent documentary
    which brought them up and showed how they have created an atmosphere
    for quality family entertainment, run by conscientious individuals and
    are patronized by customers who appreciate the product they offer which
    is far more than baseball.
    
    They don't deserve your skepticism, but it also doesn't necessarily
    mean that the city deserves a major league team.  It's the way the
    franchise operates which is unique.
    
    Dan

    OK, maybe so, but the point was that they drew at least *SOME* fans who
    probably would go to Cincinnati to see the Reds, but at that time the
    Reds were terrible and drew small(er) crowds. There WAS talk that
    Louisville could be a major leage team, but the proximity to Cincinnati
    makes it all but impossible. 
    
    A LOT of minor league franchises are much better run (in the business
    sense) than their major league counterparts.
    
    Tom 

    Heard today that the Braves waived Andres Thomas(SS) today.
    
    The midget(oops, treading dangerous ground here) who reportedly has
    beat him out is none other than former Pirate Raphael Belliard.
    
    Belliard is a good defensive shortstop but his lifetime batting average
    is somewhere around my bowling average.  Was Thomas that bad???????
    
    JaKe
    

    Was your bowling average that good ?

    re-.1  My best season I finished with a 184 avg(ten pins) and that's
    about where Belliard will finish this year.  Sure he's quick and good
    defensively, but the guy just can't hit the ball out of the infield.
    
    JaKe
    

    I saw in the paper this weekend that some of the expansion candidate
    cities have picked out names for their potential teams.  The one that
    sticks out in my mind is the Orlando Sun Rays.  Baaarrrffff!  There
    were a couple of others, but I can't remember them (Buffalo Bills might
    have been one).
    
    Interesting note was that the cities that already have names selected
    for the franchises are probably the least likely to get teams.  The
    other cities will hold contests to select names should they be awarded
    a franchise.

    The Sun Rays is the name of Orlando's minor league team (AA, Twins).  I
    don't think that's such a bad name and their emblem, if I remember
    correctly, is quite stylish with this golden searay.
    
    There is also a team in Orlando's division named the Carolina Mudcats
    that has an emblem of this big catfish in a C.
    
    Bob Hunt and I went to the Charlotte Knights vs Memphis Chicks game
    last night.  Memphis has an indian chiefs head for an emblem.  Couldn't
    really understand that.
    
    	--dan'l

�    Bob Hunt and I went to the Charlotte Knights vs Memphis Chicks game
�    last night.  Memphis has an indian chiefs head for an emblem.  Couldn't
�    really understand that.
    
    Isn't there an Indian tribe called the Chickasaws?

Teams these days pick such wimpy names!

How bout the Orlando Diamondbacks (they have diamond back rattler's in 
Florida, right?)

I mean, get something MANLY.

Sheesh, with a name like the Sun Rays, you'll have guys named Blaine
and Antoine playing for you!

'Saw

    Don Zimmer became the second manager in the National League to get the
    axe this season.  The first manager axed was Nick Leyva of the
    Phillies.
    
    Personally, I think that the Cub owners are acting irrationally.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    The Cubs are only one game under .500 and it's only May.  Do they
    really think Zimmer was the problem?  Stupid.
    
    I hope he turns up somewhere soon.  He's second only to Billy Ball.
    
    	--dan'l

    I agree Dan'l, the Cubs players are where their problem lies right
    now.Most of the Multi-million $$$ free agents they went out and bought
    during the off-season are hitting somewhere around their weight.  What
    they should be hitting is somewhere around Zimmer's weight.  Then the
    club would have been in 1st place by 9 games.
    
    Jake
    

    Don't know the guys name, but the Cubs hired a new manager today.  He
    was the manager of their AAA club in, I think,, Omaha, ending Joe
    Altobelli's one day stint as manager.
    
    JaKe
    

	Don Zimmer is an ironhead gerbil.  Remember two years ago when 
everybody in this notesfile was gaga over the Cubs?  Remember who said the 
Zimmer factor would be instrumental in a San Francisco victory in the NLCS?
If Zip gets another job I hope the team he goes to has a rubberarmed 
reliever (Soup Campbell) and no player whose lifestyle is contrary to what 
blubberhead believes it should be, or said player will spend a lot of time on 
the bench (Bernie Carbo and Bill Lee).  How the guy keeps getting a job is 
a tribute to baseball's "good ole boy" syndrome.

				/Don

    re .63, the new cubs manager is Jim Essian; he had been manager of the
    Cubs' triple-A Iowa team.
      
    Frankly, I don't see why so many people picked the Cubs to win the NL
    East.  Going into this season they reminded me of the pre-Clemens Red
    Sox, great offense but not enough pitching....the Pirates have
    comparable offense and *much* deeper starting pitching (even had D.
    Jackson and Harkey stayed healthy).
    
    
    py

    It was reported in another conference, byu ex Sports-noter Spud, that
    Tommy Greene of the Phillies has pitched a no-hitter...
    
    JD

    Apparently Greene walked 7 and whiffed 10.  Must have been an
    adventure.
    
    Mark.

    The organizing committee for bringing baseball to Denver has decided on
    purple as one of the prospective team's colors. Reasons: No other Major
    League teams have purple as a color, and the correlation to the purple
    majestic Rocky Mountains.  They say there's little chance the team will 
    be called the Bears (Good!!), mainly because when someone says Bears, 
    most people think of the Chicago Bears.  Possible names being tossed 
    around are Rockies, Cougars, and Grizzlies.  No mention of whether the 
    team would be called Denver or Colorado, but my guess is it would be 
    Denver.  From what I hear, they want to have a team name, colors, logo,
    and uniforms ready for the announcement of the 2 expansion cities on 
    June 12th.
    
    Joe

    
    "The Colorado Purple Majestic Mountain Grizzlies" is a fine name.  They
    could call 'em just "The Rockies" for short, and their theme song could
    be "Gonna Fly (out) Now" sung by John Cougar.  But please, don't mix
    any orange with the purple.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Joe, I heard that it's going to be Colorado ....., instead of Denver
    ....., because they want more of a regional appeal.  I agree with that
    because when they were promoting the club to MLB, they said that it
    would draw from all of the Rocky Mountain Region, not just Denver.
    
    Glenn

    I know I'll be going when the Dodgers are in town!  8^)
    

It's been heavily rumored that the "Mythical" team is gonna be called the 
Colorado Rockies. They will have a BEAR as a mascot. 

Jeff

    The Hockey team sucked big time, what would they name their baseball
    team after those losers???
    
    REK

    Another team name rumor floating about is that the next club in
    Washington, D.C. will be known as the Nationals rather than the
    Senators.

    re .74:
    
    Never mind major league baseball in DC.  Bring it back to Baltimore
    first.  :-(
    
    
    py

                 
    > Another team name rumor floating about is that the next club in
    > Washington, D.C. will be known as the Nationals rather than the
    > Senators.
    
    I don't think that's a rumor; I think the committee in Washington
    announced officially that the name would be the "Nationals".  Won't
    make much difference, though, as due to questions over the lack of  
    local deep-pockets ownership Washington appears to be all but out of 
    the running.
    
    I think Denver's a lock at this point.  By all rights, tradition
    dictates that the team be called the Denver Bears.  Short, simple, 
    with years of use behind it.  Colorado Rockies, Rocky Mountains, 
    Zephyrs, etc. don't cut it, in my opinion.
    
    glenn
    

    Yea, I also heard the nickname will be the Rockies, whether it's Denver
    or Colorado.  The logo probably won't be a bear, but it may be
    incorporated into the uniformor logo much in the same way the A's use the
    elephant.  Look for the logo to be something along the lines of the
    hockey team's old logo or the one used for the Final 4 last year.
    
    Joe
    

    
    	The majority of an opinion poll agrees with you Glen on
    	naming them the Bears.  Who gives a rat's patoot if they
    	have the same mascot as some team in another state?  Not
    	every single team in America/Canada can have a unique 
    	mascot.  The "Denver Bears" sounds good to me too.....
    
    	Claybone

    If memory serves (not a given!) MLB, "strongly suggested" to the
    ownership group that the team NOT be called the Bears.
    
    Glenn
    

>    MLB, "strongly suggested" to the
>    ownership group that the team NOT be called the Bears.
   
    That's pretty much the case.  I'm just glad to hear they won't be called 
    the Bears.    
    
    As for the cities still in the running, everything I've read and heard
    has indicated the only 3 cities still in serious contention are Miami,
    Tampa/St. Pete, and Denver.  Buffalo, Washington, and Orlando are all
    but out of the race for an expansion team this time around.
    
    Joe 
        

    Rocky Mountain Oysters
    Denver Boulders
    Aurora Borealisises (the suburb)
    Denver Diamondbacks. 
    
    Just a few thoughts.
    

    Nah, I like the Denver Elways. The mascot could be a baseball with the
    picture of a palomino horse in the middle.
    
    Rich
    

    The Colorado Colada-Sipping Soccer Yuppies.
    
    Mark.

    
    At least they will not have to play in the whimpy American League,
    those of us here in the Rockies will be able to see real teams, not
    the has been's from the American East.
    
    Cadzilla
    
    Denver SkySox?

Howsabout da Denva Collies! I know Hoot and Monty, where ever they are would
preciate that name! Or better yet, the Denver Oysters.




Steve

�    At least they will not have to play in the whimpy American League,
�    those of us here in the Rockies will be able to see real teams, not
�    the has been's from the American East.
    
    yah, they'll be in that mighty NL West.

    Whoops, I forgot, how about the Denver Excitings? They could have
    "mood" uniforms that glow everytime a Bronco player farts.
    
    Rich
    

    
    	Hey Mac, lest we forget, the Reds from the mighty NL 
    	West won the WS lasted year.
    
    	Claybone :^)

    And the 16th best team in the NHL almost walked off with the Stanley
    Cup...
    
    Didn't the Reds play <= .500 ball following the All Star break last
    year?  They certainly put things back together for 4 games though.

    Lesse...
    WEST 			East
    
    90 Reds win WS
    89 Giants lose WS
    88 Dodgers win WS
    				87 Cards lose WS
    				86 Mets win WS
    				85 Cards lose WS
    84 Padres lose WS
    				83 Phillies lose WS
    				82 Cards win WS
    81 Dodgers win WS
    
    3-2                         2-3
    
    West 			East
    
    90 A's lose WS
    89 A's win WS
    88 A's lose WS
    87 Twins win WS
    				86 Boston lose WS
    85 Royals win WS
    				84 Tigers win WS
    				83 Orioles win WS
    				82 Brewers lose WS
    				81 Yankees lose WS
    
    West 3-2 			2-3
    
                                   
    Seems the NL West isn't as bad as first thought. Looking at the trend
    it seems that the East was better in the first half of the decade where
    the West is better over the last 5 years. We'll have to see what 1991
    brings.

    Er, Mac....I'd bet my last dollar that you'd be tickled pink if the Red
    Sox went 0-81 after the All-Star break, yet win the WS.
    
    Mark.

    
    	Thankeee kindly there LuFay.  Ya beat me to it.
    
    	Claybone_who's_tickled_pink_the_Reds_won_it_all

    re: a few back
    
    Why did the league object to the "Bears" so much? Isn't that the
    traditional name that Denver's minor league teams have had for years
    (until the ZerOfers recently). A LOT of expansion teams have kept the
    names of the minor league teams. The SD Padres, LA Angels and (I think)
    the Seattle Pilots were originally PCL teams and kept the names when
    they wnet Big-time. 
    
    Montreal Used to be a Dodger team known as the Royals, KC was the
    Blues, a Ynakee farm team, but all the other newer teams are relocated
    from somewhere else. Actually, I think the Milwaukee Brewers was the
    name of a team from a long time ago (pre-Braves) and they revived the
    name.
    
    ANY name is better than some of these ridiculous singular names that,
    unlike the leisure suit, survived beyond the '70s.
    
    Tom 

    Baltimore's minor league team was the Orioles before the St Louis
    Browns moved there.
    
    Rich
    

    Buck Rodgers got the axe from the Expos today.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    It's reported in both the Rocky Mountain News and the Miami Herald that
    the latest rumors indicate Miami and Denver will be awarded expansion
    franchises next week.  Miami is supposedly #1 on the list due to their
    strong financial ownership group.  
    
    But, there's also some bad news.  The latest rumor in Denver is that
    the team would be called the Grizzlies.  Stick with Rockies, guys.
    
    Joe
    

HEY, what's wrong with Grizzlies?  There's a famous rugby team by that
name, and I think it's kind of manly....  Why it makes me think of some
of those stories Claywad tells.....

8^)

'Saw

    No St. Pete?  What the hail are they going to do with that huge
    stadium?  I can't believe they would get snubbed.
    
    	--dan'l

    Hey, what happened to the Denver Elways?
    
    Rich
    

    
    	Grizzlies?  That's assa9 (er, I mean stupid)!  There hasn't
    	been a grizzly sighted in Colorado since 1976.  They should
    	call them the Bears (according to the opinion poll they
    	took).  Somebody from the proposed team management was
    	quoted as saying that they are hoping for the disenchantment
    	with the name "Rockies" will blow over.  That's a great way
    	to start off a team/city relationship.  
    
    	I personally vote for "Bears" due to the bad history
    	surrounding the "Colorado Rockies" name.
    
    	Rich, they couldn't find anybody to be the mascot (nobody
    	wif big 'nuff teef that is!)
    
    	Claybone

    I like the Denver Marmots.  
    
    Or how bout the Denver Aspens?
    
    The Denver Water Rights?
    
    Nope, I like Denver Marmots...
    
    JD

    
    I kind of like the Rockies.  You could get Morganna the Kissing Bandit
    to be the mascot for the team.  With those Mts. she would be perfect.
    
    \pjb

I still like the Colorado Collies, why not give the whole state somin'
to root for.


Steve

    
    The Miami Herald is reporting today that the Expansion Committee is
    definitely recommending the Miami franchise to the MLB owners, and 
    most likely the Denver franchise as the second expansion team.  The
    Miami team will be called the Florida Marlins, unless St. Pete gets the
    other team (unlikely), in which case they will be called the Miami
    Marlins.
    
    glenn
    
    

    Marlins, huh? AMC used to make a car called a Marlin. Looked like an
    ugly AMC Javelin.
    
    Rich
    

    
    Rocky Mtn's Rejects

    
    Howsabout the Denver QuicheEaters????
    
    At least Elway would fit in!!!.
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

I didn't get a chance to read the story, but today's paper reports that the NL
expansion has been put on hold indefinitely.  Sorry Denver, Miami.

=Bob=

    
> I didn't get a chance to read the story, but today's paper reports that the NL
> expansion has been put on hold indefinitely.  Sorry Denver, Miami.
    
    Not necessarily the expansion, just the announcement (which was
    supposed to be next week).  The NL and AL are still squabbling over the
    money...
    
    glenn
    

    This delay has COP-OUT written all over it.  It's kind typical of
    baseball after they put expansion off for so many years.
    
    As Glenn W. said, money is the big road block.  $190 million, and how 
    it will be distributed to be specific.  The AL wants their piece of the 
    pie, understandably so.  Also, there is the very small issue is how 
    much of a part the AL will play in the expansion draft.      
    
    You also have to wonder if the rumors yesterday about Miami and Denver
    being the 2 cities have anything to do with this wimpy-a$$ed coput. 
    St. Pete obviously doesn't like hearing that, and they the pressure 
    the committee to put the decision on the back burner to bide time.
    
    Joe

    
    One of the things that I heard soured the announcement is the fact the
    guy guy who backed the Miami entry is having financial problems.  He
    owns Blockbuster Entertainment, and witn Markie and his friends having
    watched every video on earth already they are all now watching Nots
    Withstanding and other such soap operas.  Having lost much of the
    lucrative, velour covered, yuppie market, Blockbuster's stock has
    halved its price in about 9 months.  
    
    My guess at what happened is that they were ready to announce Dever and
    Miami, but got skeered because the guy with the bucks may not be
    around, so they decided to wait and see (after all, Dances with Wolves
    is coming out on video soon, so Markie will rent that).  If things are
    OK, Miami is in, if not it's St. Pete.
    
    Bruce
    
    PS  How about the Collar[ado] Sister Kissers?  Fits the state's image,
    is plural, and illiterative-- the 3 most important specifications for a
    team name.

    Broose, them's fightin' woids.
    
    I *don't* watch Snots Landing.  Wifey-poo does.  In fack, my guitar
    lessons are on Thursdays, so pfftt.
    
    And how *did* I get pulled into this?
    
    Mark.

RE: .112

>>	Colorado Sister-Kissers ... illiterative ...

Was that an intentional misspelling, and innocent malaprop, or just
another Noter trying to sound *eddicated*...??   (;^})

- Steve, who's_always_trying_to_teach_our_native_language

    Yesterday's SI had an article about this topic. They rated the cities
    on several categories, such as population base, TV market, ballpark,
    proximity to other teams, etc. They also listed biggest asset & biggest
    drawbacks.
    
    For Miami the biggest drawback was the rainy summer weather, and the
    biggest asset was the megabucks guy, since, in addition to the $95 
    million expansion fee, teams need another $30-35 million just for minor 
    league infrastructure, front office, uniforms/equipment, players, etc. 
    This is not including ML payroll. Consider the salaries and the quality 
    of players these teams would get. Wes Gardner at $1.4 million a year....
    What a steal! 
    
    If the Miami owner is having $$ problems, it seems St. Pete would be a
    contendah. Either that, or an existing team (Seattle?) might be
    persuaded to move there. The draback is that they would play in an
    ug-lee dome with astro turf and air conditioning. A friend of mine in
    Florida said that even at night it's hotter than hell in the summer, so
    this it the only way they could get people to come out(in)doors. (Even
    Norman Schwartzkopf could only attract 28,000 to Tampa Stadium, so if
    you think they are going to pack an outdoor park to see Joe Hesketh 
    pitch to Daryl Boston...)
    
    Denver looks like a good bet, but is dependent on peripheral states
    for support, much like the KC Royals. As the only team in the Mountain
    time zone would also make travel easier as a stopover to the west
    coast.
    
    Orlando would have to play in the Royals spring training home, Baseball
    City for a few years until a new park was built. It is also hurt by
    being the 3rd chioce in Florida, and still reasonably close (2 hours?)
    to the Tampa-St. Pete area.
    
    Washington is too close to the Baltimore Orioles, who draw 20% of their
    fan base from the DC area. Also, the new park is a little closer to DC,
    so that would eventually raise the same questions that came up when the
    Senators left before. Vincent said they would "go where baseball
    isn't," so that certainly points to Denver and Florida, and not
    Washington.
    
    Buffalo shot itself in the foot by (very sanely) saying that it was too
    ridiculous to play high-cost baseball the way mediocre players were
    getting H-U-G-E contracts. They've got a nice park and reasonable
    ticket prices, which would certainly change if they joined the NL, so 
    they'll probably stay a triple A team. 
    
    The most important rule is that any city that proposes a singular name
    should be IMMEDIATELY dropped from the list. Miami Marlins is good,
    Buffalo Bisons is good, Washington Nationals is OK. Denver/Colarado, with
    Purple as their color, could be in trouble, depending on the second
    color (gold would be good, but they'll probably knuckle under to the 
    ski-yuppie crowd and go with mauve, teal, aqua, peach, etc.) Haven't heard
    anything about the Tampa-St.Pete name proposals, but as long as they
    don't consult the bozo that chose their hockey name they have a chance.
    The person who chose "Orlando Sun Rays" should be SHOT. It's just as
    well that they won't get a team.
    
    Tom     

 �   The person who chose "Orlando Sun Rays" should be SHOT. It's just as
 �   well that they won't get a team.
 
 I'm not sure if it's been pointed out in here before or not but "Sun
 Rays" is *not* a new name ... 
 
 The Orlando Sun Rays are the Minnesota Twins' AA team and they play
 in the Southern League with teams from Charlotte, Birmingham,
 Knoxville, Memphis, Greenville, Chattanooga, and others ...
 
 For what it's worth ...
 
 Bob Hunt

  <<< Note 3.114 by SOFBAS::TRINWARD "Maker of fine scrap-paper since 1949" >>>
                             -< Alliteracy hurts? >-


    Maybe you should practice what you preach?
    
              <<< VAXWRK::$1$DUS6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RED_SOX.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< Boston Red Sox Baseball >-
================================================================================
Note 13.1607                     TRADE RUMORS                       1607 of 1607
SOFBAS::TRINWARD "Maker of fine scrap-paper since 19" 0 lines   7-JUN-1991 11:02
                        -< Bring baczk the Spike-man! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    

RE: previous note:

A typo 

	"baczk" 

due to too-fast fingers


does not equal a misused word 

	"illiterative",

... at least not in my book    8^}

- Steve, who's_still_trying_to_bring_baczk_(tm)_English_as_a_first_language

    Steve, who's_always_trying_to_teach_our_native_language
    
    Just what Indian language are you trying to teach?
    
    Lee

    Actually the holdup has to do with the Screen Animal Guild. You see,
    they are demanding a percentage of the prospective Denver/Colorado logo
    that will be on the outfield walls of many NL parks. Since Mr. Ed was a
    bona fide member of the SAG, royalty payments must be made by any team
    displaying the Denver/Colorado logo.
    
    Rich
    

    Rich, wouldn't the Colorado Lassies have the same dilemma?
    
    Mark.

RE: .121

>>   Actually the holdup has to do with the Screen Animal Guild. You see,
                                                   ^^^^^^ 
>>  they are demanding a percentage of the prospective Denver/Colorado logo
>>  that will be on the outfield walls of many NL parks. Since Mr. Ed was a
							       ^^^^^^
>>  bona fide member of the SAG, royalty payments must be made by any team
>>  displaying the Denver/Colorado logo.
    
>>   Rich
    
Whew!  I read that one quickly, and was trying figure out why the "Screen
Actors [sic] Guild" and "Mr. Ed (Asner)" would have problems with the
logo...

Clever, whether intended or not...!

- Steve, who_just_hopes_the_Stallions_don't_leave_too_many_*apples*_around

    Thas rite, Mark. The Collies or the Elways. Heck, even if it's the
    Grizzlies or the Bears, Gentle Ben's agent is liable to file suit. 
    
    Just that national anti-Denver bias coming to the forefront.
    
    Rich
    

    It's all but official now, Denver will be playing in the NL starting
    with the 1993 season!  The expansion committee has recommended Denver 
    and Miami, as new cities, and the owners need only approve that
    recommendation.  That official approval could come tomorrow at the
    owners' meeting, but most likely won't happen for about 2 or 3 weeks.
    
    Team colors are purple, black, and silver.  It's a nice color scheme,
    but I've always felt 3 colors were one too many.  The Seachickens are the
    only team I can think of that use three colors other than white.  A
    logo and team name are expected to be unveiled in the next 7-10 days.
    
    According to Baseball Tonight last night, the Miami team will be called
    either the South Florida or Miami Marlins.  They should go with Miami
    IMO.  I can't see why they don't want to call them Florida, because
    there's a good chance St. Pete could get a team within the next decade
    or so either by exapansion or another team moving there.  I just don't
    think South Florida would sound good.
    
    Joe
    

    RE: South Florida
    
    Having lived and worked in Boca Raton in the past, I can understand the
    push for this moniker.  Miami is the hub of South Florida (a.k.a. the
    Gold Coast), but the spokes (Boca, Ft. Lauderdale, Delray Beach, Palm
    Beach, Hollywood, Miami Beach etc.) like to think of themselves as part
    of the whole picture...when the picture is good.  They distance
    themselves from Miami when you talk of crime and other negatives.  This
    is just another effort for all the Gold Coast wealthies to feel a part
    of what will be a "nice thing" about the area.
    
    Wasn't the Marlins the name of a team Miami once had? 
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Back in 1984 when Tom Monaghan bought the Tigers he paid $50 million.
    
    Not a bad return on his investment if a new team cost $95 million 
    plus $35 million franchise fee.
    
    \pjb
    

What's all this talk about the Mariners possibly moving to St. Pete in the 
future? The team has a long term lease on the kingdome and they've been drawing
pretty good crowds for the past 2 seasons. 

I haven't heard a word about it locally but ESPN and CNN seem to mention this
rumor with every breath.

I could see the Indians moving out of Cleveland for St. Pete but I don't see the
M's moving in the near future. Now that they've got a decent team they should
remain in the area (and draw fairly well) for quite some time. If they had a 
decent stadium (removable roof) they'd draw even better.


Metz

    
    I think the Indians and Astros are the most likely candidates to
    be making moves...
    
    glenn
    
    
    
    
                                                    

    
    	I can see the Indians possibly making a move, but why the Astros?
    Are they doing that badly in Houston & the Dome?
    
    	After all the years of carrot dangling, it's about time that 
    Denver got a baseball team.  Granted the team won't be competitive
    for a few years, but it will draw good crowds as there are lots of
    transplants from all over the country and they brought their previous
    baseball allegiances with them.  Plus, it would give the Donks some
    serious competition as for sports attention.  Not to mention that I'd
    get a chance to see the Mets whenever they're in town. :-)
    
    
    						 glen j.

    I believe that the 'Stros are for sale.  After spending the last few
    years in the cellar, excercising a self imposed salary cap, and dumping
    players, the attendance isn't what it was.

    I am totally against naming a franchise after a state. The California
    Angels should be the LA Angels. They draw heavily from LA County,
    probably have games televised by LA stations and probably have games
    aired on LA radio stations.
    
    Ditto Minnesota North Stars, Twins and Vikings. Name them either
    Minneapolis or St. Paul. But pick one!
    
    Ditto Texas Rangers - Should be Dallas or Ft Worth Rangers. Pick one.
    Does Arlington have a TV or radio station?
    
    Golden State Warriors sounds ridiculous to me. Call 'em either San
    Francisco or Oakland Warriors.
    
    New England Patriots should be either the Boston or Providence
    Patriots. I lean towards Boston because advertising revenues to Boston
    stations is higher.
    
    New Jersey Devils should be called the Hackensack Devils.
    
    Griffith started this trend in 1960 when he moved the Senators to
    Minneapolis and called the team the Minnesota Twins. Then Finley got a
    hockey franchise and called them the California Golden Seals. 
    
    I don't like it.
    
    Rich
    

    Whoops - forgot the Utah Jazz. Now someone tell me THAT name makes
    sense!
    
    Rich
    

    .133�    Whoops - forgot the Utah Jazz. Now someone tell me THAT name makes
    .133�    sense!
    
    	You're right..THAT name dosen't make sense..but the original team
    came from New Orleans...and THAT name does make sence.
    
    HTH's
    
    B.A.
    

    RE: 132
    
    The California Angels should never be called the L.A. Angels. If
    anything it should be the Anahiem Angels, also the L.A. Rams should be
    the Anaheim Rams. Both these teams are in Orange County, and are about
    an hour drive from Los Angeles. Although they do draw a lot of fans frm
    L.A county the majority of people who attend these games come from
    Orange County.
    
    ED who used to live in L.A. (it was only 5 minutes to Dodger Stadium
    but an hour to Anahiem stadium).

    	Hey Rich, how do you know the New York Giants/Yankees/Mets/Rangers
    /Knicks/Jets aren't really using the state name and not the city
    name?

    re /Don - ya GOT me, big guy.
    
    re Angels and Rams. 
    
    Anaheim is OK by me.
    
    Rich
    

    I have no problem with a team being associated with an area, be it New
    England or a state.  They draw fans from a much larger area than the
    city they play in, so why not have the team name reflect their fan
    base?  You also have several teams which play their games in the
    suburbs and not in the city they are named after.

    
    	Well, I've changed my mind regarding the team name for the
    	Denver/Colorado franchise.  In honor of all those mountain
    	men we used to/still have, they should be called the Denver/
    	Colorado "Johnsons" (you know, as in Jeremiah!) :^)
    
    	Claybone
    
    	ps  Yeehaw!  I get to see the Reds play now!

    I think the NY Jets should be known as the RON Jets.
    
    HTH
    
    HH

    I read in today's Hearld that DAve Dravecky will undergo surgery next
    Tuesday to amputate his left arm in an effort to stop infection and arm
    problems as a result of the tumors that he had.
    
    Sad.

    Yeah, I read that today, too.  What a shame.  The poor guy has already
    had a very bad time with it, and now it's past saving.
    
    Lee

    
    > Yeah, I read that today, too.  What a shame.  The poor guy has already
    > had a very bad time with it, and now it's past saving.
    
    The irony is that the comeback he made, which eventually resulted in
    him breaking it twice, probably cost him the use of the arm.  He has no
    regrets though, and I've got to admire him for deciding to go ahead and
    do what he loved best at whatever risk...
    
    glenn
    

Loved those mid'60s uniforms that Cinci and Philladelphia wore yesterday!  It
was a great throwback.  Was it some kind of old timers day or something in 
Philly?

=Bob=

    
    For the record, Dave Dravecky had his arm and shoulder amputated
    yesterday to keep his cancer from spreading.  Doctors are not
    commenting, but all indications is that he should recover soon and get
    on with his life.
    
    

RE: Dravecky

I had heard that doctors stated that his prognosis for rull recovery was "very 
good".

Wish him the best.

=Bob=

    Last night, some big hoohas were in Charlotte to attend a Charlotte
    Knights baseball game and consider the site for expansion to one of the
    new AAA clubs.
    
    The Knights' only gimmic to get people to the park was to be a softball
    game between the Hornets and the local media.  However, at about 5:30
    the skies opened up in a big way.  The softball game was cancelled. 
    The weather cleared around gametime enough to start playing ball
    in front of
    
    
    
    9,200+ fans. 
    
    When you consider the weather conditions and the fact that they weren't
    giving away a car or a year's supply of Spam or anything like that,
    that's mighty impressive.  These league officials had attended a 
    Birmingham Barons (also in the running for AAA) game the night before
    for a game that attracted just under 6,000 on a 3 for the price of 1
    ticket giveaway.
    
    Bob Hunt, it's gonna happen!
    
    	--dan'l

 That's great news, Dan'l.   
 
 If I had been in town, it would have been 9,200+ plus 1.
 
 For the record, the Charlotte Knights were the attendance leaders in *all*
 of AA ball lasted year and they outdrew many AAA teams as well.  And the
 team was brutal.   The record for one night was 12,500+ in a 10,000 seat
 stadium with grassy overflow areas.   That was the night "The Chicken" was
 in town.   He really is a hoot.
 
 This year the team is just a little better than lasted year's wretched
 squad and the attendance is hanging in there, too.   9,200 has to be the
 top crowd of the year so far since "The Chicken" hasn't been there yet
 this year.
 
 AAA ball in Charlotte ???   Has a nice ring to it.
 
 Bob Hunt

    For the record, Bob, you missed The Chicken.  Last Friday, Max Padkin
    was there and Saturday was The Chicken's night.  Cliff and I went, but
    when we got to the exit at 6:30 and the traffic was backed up to the
    welcome center (1 mile) we turned around and went to a sports bar in
    Dilworth.
    
    See ya tonight, dude.
    
    	--dan'l

 Dan'l,
 
 What was the attendance for Chicken Night lasted Friday in Charlotte ??? 
 
 Also, I believe The Chicken will be in Charlotte *twice* this season.   In
 addition, the Phillie Phanatic will be there, too, for a one-game visit in
 August sometime.   You know me and the MicroHUNTs will be there for that
 one.
 
 Bob Hunt

    It was reported in the Baseball conference that the Denver franchise
    has settled on a name of the team.  They will be caled the Colorado
    Rockies and have a bear as a mascot.

re Denver: 

	Darn, I was hoping for the "Rocky Mountain Oysters".....

re Chicken Night:

	When they have Smelt Night, could someone please let me know....

'Saw

    Up until two days ago, the Pirates had maintained the best winning
    percentage in baseball (LA surpassed them by one game Saturday). 
    However, there are only two Pirates on the NL All-Star team, Bobby
    Bonilla and John Smiley.  
    
    That's either the mark of a great team playing as a team, a terrific
    bench, a great manager, or a combination of all three.
    
    And if you ask me, Bonilla doesn't necessarily deserve to be there let
    alone starting at DH hitting .286.
    
    	--dan'l

dan'l mentioned Dion Sanders in the Pittsburgh Pirates note, and it reminded me
of something I saw in the paper this morning.  It said that he is supposed to 
report to Falcon training camp nexted week.  The story I read said that he asked for some
time off in between, and that the Falcons said no.

Kinda stinks for the Braves, who are in the middle (okay, the outskirts of the
middle) of a pennant fight, to lose a starting player.  I guess $$$ rules again.

=Bob=

    Sanders is only starting because the Braves, like the Bucs, are hit by
    the injury train (as Jake so eloquently put it).  He was only hitting
    around .200.  
    
    Countdown to Deon Doom starts this Sunday.
    
    	--dan'l

    re: .-1
    
    No, Deion didn't start because of injuries.  The Braves gave him a
    start because it was his last (baseball) game of the year.  The timing
    worked out well because it allowed Ron Gant to serve a 1-game
    suspension at the same time.  Whoever made the decision to start him
    deserves a kudo, cause his 3-run homer was *huge*.  
    
    I was at the game and the fans of Atlanta seem to be taking an actual
    liking to the young man.  Every at-bat was greeted with decent applause
    - absolutely no booing.  (His BA was around .190.)  When he hit the HR
    the fans *demanded* a curtain call, and when the Braves pulled a
    double-switch in the 7th and took him out he got a rousing standing
    "O", which "Prime Time" responded to by blowing kisses to the 23K on
    hand!
    
    One other note from the game - apparently Ted and Jane were in
    attendance.  Turner visited with the team before the game before
    heading for his owners box.  Then, with the Braves trailing 6-1
    they both left, only to miss probably the most stirring comeback
    of the whole season!  Haw haw haw!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    

    Knorr.. as in Snorr... :-} Just kidding.. Sanders got the start because
    Gant drop his appeal for a 1 game suspension.... Gant figured he had
    better take the game now instead of waiting until September....
    
    REK

    Rong, REK.  Gant decided to take his 1-game suspension cause the Braves
    wanted to give Deion a start on his last game of the year.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Isn't that what I said Snorr?????
    
    REK

    What's this?  Chris Knorr suddenly an Atlanta Braves fan...now that
    they're winning?!?  Seems the same thing happened with a guy named Mr.T
    around the time a certain hockey team began winning.  You two do have
    something in common!!!
    
    	--dan'l

 My thoughts exactly, Dan'l ....
 
 Used to be you could have your very own personal *section* in
 Atlanta-Fulton County.    Just you and a hundred other empty seats
 around you.
 
 Now, it's oh-so-chic in Hotlanta to be a Braves fan.   Apparently,
 they're even doing some sort of new group cheering activity in
 Bravesville.   Called the "Tomahawk Chop" or something like that. 
 
 Seems as though, when cued by appropriate stereotyped tom-tom music,
 all the nouveau fans stand up and start making chop-chop motions with
 their right arms simulating a group scalping, I guess.
 
 Wonder how long it'll be before a Native American rights activist
 group gets the clever idea to spring a lawsuit claiming some sort of
 prejudicial harm done to their image.    Hmmm ???
 
 I guess it's better than The Wave, though.   Would have liked to have
 seen the one guy in the stands doing the Tomahawk Chop a few years
 ago.  Probably would have been arrested on suspicion of doing the
 Pee-Wee Thang.
 
 Atlanta is still the *ONLY* sports town in the country with at least
 three major league teams ... all of whom have *never* even played for
 a world championship title.    Perfect for Tar Heel fans !!!
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Atlanta's sports stock has jumped big time in the non-pro
 ranks, however.   Georgia Tech's 1/2 national title lasted year and
 the Olympics in 1996 are prime time accomplishments.

    I plead "GUILTY" to the charges of 'Braves Bandwagon Jumping', along
    with an estimated 2,000,000 other Atlanta residents.  In our defense
    I would only raise the issue of how hapless this franchise has been for
    so long.  Guess it took a Tar Heel fan (and our storied history of
    Consistent Excellence) to turn things around.
    
    (BTW Ketch, the equation with Carolina basketball with Atlanta based on
     the non-Title metric is wholly false and bogus, cause in 1982 Michael
     Jordan hit a baseline jumper to give UNC a victory over Georgetown
     in the NCAA Tournament finals.  HTH.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    re Bob Hunt it's not just in Dixie, here in Southern NH/Northeastern MA
    I'm seeing a LOT more people wearing Braves' hats this year than in the
    recent past.
    
    (that being said the Braves are my favorite NL team, hope they can pull
    it off...)
                
    
    py

    
    The Boston Braves.  Yep, one of my favorite teams too.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Bob Hunt mentioned that attending Braves games is the "in" thing in
    Atlanta now. I don't dispute that but I would like to bring up a lousy
    situation in good old Boston.
    
    Going back only 4-5 years ago, one could almost assure themselves of a
    bleacher seat for any Red Sox game at the gate except versus the
    Yankees, on Opening Day or on Patriots' Day. Of course, during some
    late months, when the Sox were in the thick of a pennant race, seats
    became scarce.
    
    But now, it is quite unlikely to get a seat the day of the game at
    Fenway. Sure, much of the crowd are dedicated baseball fans who would
    support the team through thick and thin. But it's almost gotten to the
    point where those frustrated yuppies who couldn't get a Celtic season
    ticket now get a Red Sox season ticket. 
    
    And I wouldn't say Atlanta is alone in wagon jumping. Houston and
    Cleveland had huge crowds when the teams were winning. When the Yankees
    stumbled through the first 1/3 of the season this year, fans were hard
    to find - sans George even. Then the Yanks put together a respectable
    winning streak and fans returned.
    
    As far as the Braves go, I think they are somehow a darling of fans.
    When in Milwaukee they captured the imagination of the country as they
    dominated in the late 50's, dethroned the Yankees once and paraded a
    list of greats like Spahn, Matthews and Aaron before the public.
    
    Turner tried to label them America's team through TBS but that never
    worked. But they have their old uniforms back, have cultivated good
    talent through their farm system, made wise trades and hired a pretty
    good baseball mind in Bobby Cox. They lack that one charismatic person
    to put them into the national spotlight. Justice isn't that yet,
    Niether is Nixon or Glavine. But they are close......
    
    Rich
    

 It's only natural for more fans to attend more games when the team is
 winning.   Nobody argues with that and it's one of the primary
 reasons why an owner would want the best team possible in the first
 place.
 
 What is arguable is the raw spread between low points and high
 points.   If the Red Sox have a great year, they pack all 33,000
 seats in Fenway.   Jam 'em in butt cheek to butt cheek.   If they
 sip, they draw, what, only 30,000 per game ???
 
 Same thing in Philly.   When the Phils do well, they pack in 35,000
 to 40,000 every single night.   If they do poorly, they draw 25,000
 to 30,000 every single night.   Fans in Philly are legendary for
 their preference for the Phils.   Back in 1981 or '82, I think, a
 Game 7 between the Sixers and the Bucks drew only 7,000 fans while
 more than 35,000 saw a Phillies-Cubs game across the street.
 
 You can say that about a lot of teams ... Toronto draws well, win or
 lose.  So do the Cubs.
 
 But when the Braves can have season after season full of games with,
 like, maybe 5,000 fans or less in the seats and then zoom up to over
 20,000 to 25,000 per night, then you've got bandwagon jumping.
 
 It's not evil or anything like that.  It's just not quite proper, as
 the English would say.   You've got to suffer in the bad times in
 order to earn real spurs as a true-blue fan.   Braves fans don't
 count yet.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Let's take what Bob Hunt said one step further.  Pittsburgh.  When
    Pittsburgh had the terrible teams between 81-88, Three Rivers was like
    a ghost town.  Yet, not a day went by when you didn't talk about what
    the Bucs did last night.
    
    In Atlanta, people didn't even give a darn about the Braves until this
    year.  Atlanta, as a city, is made up of bandwagon jumpers.  Don't
    believe me?  Ask the Falcons.
    
    	--dan'l

    re: Atlanta (bandwagon town)
    
    I don't disagree with this.  I think the reason for it is two-fold:
    
    1. Atlanta is a very transient city.  People come.  People go.  In
       our subdivision if you've been here more than 2 years you're
       considered an old-timer.
    
    2. Atlanta sports teams have had a long, storied history of LOSING.
       Now it's true that the BoSox haven't won a Title since time
       immortal, but they always have a competitive product on the field.
       Not so for the Braves, Falcons, or Hawks.
    
    Additionally the south is very much into the college game, especially
    college football down here.  The papers are chalked-full of college
    football on a daily basis from now until January.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
             <<< Note 3.168 by SHALOT::MEDVID "time is eternal" >>>
            -< But it'd be nice to see 'em win the west regardless >-
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Dan'l,
    
        May I remind you that the Braves beat the living sh!t out of the
    Bucs this year.  The Bucs went 0-6 in Fulton County Stadium and 3-3 in
    3 Rivers vs the Braves.   Personally, I hope someone else wins the West
    'cause the Bucs will have a helluva time vs. the Braves cause the
    Braves seem to have the Pirates number this year.
    
    
    JaKe
    

>    1. Atlanta is a very transient city.  People come.  People go. 

    So why aren't they coming and going like they used to?  Nope, Atlanta
    reminds me very much of the Brie-eating, champagne-sipping yuppie
    Northstar fans...and you've joined their company, Chris.  

    You see, it's the thing to do.  "Let's go to a baaaaaaallgame, Muffy." 
    No one went to Falcons games until last year, but then it became the
    thing to do because Glanville came to town and changed the uniforms to
    a chic black base.  "Bravo.  Encore, old chap!  Pass the caviar for my
    Chic-Fil-A, Bifboy.  Thanks, you are a dear."

    And as soon as the Braves start losing again, you'll see the signs of
    old: "Go Braves...and take the Falcons with you!"

    Jake,

    You don't have to remind me of the Bucs skid in Hotlanta.  The best
    part about Atlanta winning the west would be the Bucs going back to
    Fulton County Stadium and womping their wigwam right there in front of
    their tomahawking fans...you know, the cheer they stole from Florida
    State.

    Let's see how much Knorr like that cheer when the Seminoles are beating
    the crap out of UNC every year.

    	--dan'l

    Interesting how some cities support teams maniacally while shunning
    other teams. 
    
    Take the Braves. In their last year in Boston I believe thier total
    attendance for the year was slightly over 200,000. While the Red Sox
    pulled in over 1,000,000. This just 3 years after the Braves won the NL
    pennant!
    
    Bob Hunt - do you recall the disparity between the Philadelphia
    Athletics and Phillies? And, in THAT case, the Athletics were the
    franchise with the most success, weren't they?
    
    Boston is wild about the Celtics, Red Sox and Bruins. Crowds are over
    85% of capacity regardless of how they do. Yet they only fill the
    stands in Foxboro if the Patriots are winning.
    
    Interesting.........
    
    Rich
    

    The Patriots are relatively rookies in the New England sports scene. 
    Add to that their not so-impressive record and the grassroots following
    of the older Giants and they really don't have a strong base of loyal
    fans.

 �   Bob Hunt - do you recall the disparity between the Philadelphia
 �   Athletics and Phillies? And, in THAT case, the Athletics were the
 �   franchise with the most success, weren't they?
 
 *MUCH* more successful.   Connie Mack won 10 pennants and 5 World
 Series with the A's in Philly.   They won the AL pennant in 1929,
 1930, and 1931 when both Ruth and Gehrig were in the absolute prime
 of their careers up in Yankee Stadium.
 
 The A's had beaucoup Hall Of Famers ... Waddell, Bender, Plank,
 Collins, Dykes, Foxx, Grove, and so on ...    
 
 The Phillies won 2 pennants and lost the Series both times yet the
 Phils consistently outdrew the A's.   And they shared Shibe Park for
 many of those years, too.
 
 An amazing situation ... Finally, the A's moved to Kansas City in the
 mid 1950's and the Phillies had the whole town to themselves.
 
 Bob Hunt

Well, I think a lot has to do with how the team is perceived by the
fans, not just how they're doing.

If the fans perceive ineptitude in the front office, then they tend to
discount the team.  While the Sox have ineptitude in the front office,
they have years and years of tradition and history (and some excellent
losses and almost theres) to offset the fans tendency to stay away.

The Patriots have a jackass in the front office, who's managed to put
his feet in his mouth a couple of times...


I like to look at the Whalers.  With no winning tradition, and with
sheer ineptitude running rampant in the front office, and continually
rising ticket prices, the fans are saying "Forget about it...."


These aren't the only factors though.....

'Saw

    re: fans
    
       It will be interesting to see how the many fans the Colorado
    Rockies draw in comparison to the Broncos, especially if and 
    when they become good enough to challange for the pennant.  
       
       The Broncos were Colorado's first ever major league sports 
    franchise and have consistenly sold out since '69, excluding 
    strike years.  Ever since the franchise beginnings they've had 
    a virtual monopoly on the Denver sports scene.  All the other 
    happenings, barely receive any notice.  Everyone breathes, eats, 
    drinks, and farts Broncos.  Granted, Denver isn't like Chicago or 
    Boston, larger cities that have long histories of great atheletes 
    and competitive teams.  But even in the relatively short period
    of time since 1960, some competitive teams and players have 
    passed through.  Like David Thompson, Dan Issel, Alex English, 
    the early/mid 70s CU Buffs, the '85 Air Force Football team.  
    Big deal.  To hear the fans and media tell it, the Broncos are 
    *it*. 	
                                                               
       CUs 1990 national championship season is the lone exception 
    thus far.  Even their glory is short-lived as another August 
    rolls around and the media camps out in Greeley and gives daily
    updates about the Broncos.
    
       I'd expect the Rockies(hope that name isn't a bad omen) to
    do well for their first 2 seasons.  Then the newness will wear
    off and we'll see what happens.
    
    
                                                 glen j.  
    

    Glenn, you forgot to mention the several National Championships Air
    Force has rung up in Rugby.  Then again, by not mentioning it, you
    probably make your point even better.

Mac, 

You and Glen both forgot to mention the National Club Champion Denver
Barbarians, for 1990....

Hope this helps,
'Saw

Yo Glen you also forgot to mention that World Arena Football championship 
that the Denver Gold won in 88' 


I suspect that the Rockies will have big Draw every summer till about Mid-July
when they have been mathmatically eliminated from the rest of the Division. 

Kind like the Braves, Mariners, Cubs, Indians, White Sox....

    I'll be there whenever the Dodgers are there!

    Hey Jeff, that was the Denver Dynamite that won the Arena Football
    championship a few years back.  Come on, don't you know you're Arena
    Football trivia? :^) :^)  The Denver Gold played in the USFL.
    
    It would be fairly safe to say the Rockies will draw 3 mil their first
    year.  There will be the obvious large crowds at the beginning, but
    there will be a 2nd stage of excitement in mid-'94 or '95 when the new
    stadium opens.  In their early years, I would think crowds will start
    to shrink in August & September when they're in or near last place and
    football season is starting up.
    
    Joe

    I was told last week that Florida (Miami) is going to play in Joe
    Rob-me Stadium.  Is this true?  If so, won't that be a sh!tty place to
    watch a game.  It's not like the cirular stadiums of Cinci, Philly,
    Pitt, etc.  It's a football stadium (big enough to play world class
    soccer on).
    
    Montreal played in an unmodified Olympic Stadium for several years and
    had no right field or center field seats.  It was like a cavernous
    tomb.
    
    	--dan'l

    > It would be fairly safe to say the Rockies will draw 3 mil their
    > first year.
    
    Come back?  3,000,000 is an awful lot - that's an *average* of close
    to 37K per night!  Very few teams in baseball history have reached this
    lofty number.  (The Dodgers have done it alot and I think Toronto has
    also.)
    
    I was at a Nuggets game a few years ago and, despite a very competitive
    product (this was obviously before the Paul Westhaid fiasco) there were
    only around 8,000 bodies in the building.  Hopefully they'll support
    baseball better than hoops ...
    
    If the Rockies draw more than 2mil I'll be impressed ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Braves won last night to go � up on the Dodgers before gametime of the
    Dodgers and Pirates.  Who won between LA and Pittsburgh, and between
    the Cardnals and ??? ?
    

    Pittsburgh defeated LA.  Braves now have a full game lead on the
    Dodgers.

    dan'l
    
    St.Louis 2 - Sand Diego 1
    Pittsburgh 6- LA 4
    
    MikeL
    Closet Bucs fan (when Sox sux)
    

    Thanks for the responses.  Atlanta leads the west.  How about that.
    
>    St.Louis 2 - Sand Diego 1
    
    Are you sure this isn't reversed?  Someone just told me SD won and the
    Bucs are up 5 games in the east.
    
    	--dan'l

    Pardonez-moi
    
    Twas SD 2, St. Loo 1. Sorry. Hurst wins 15th
    

    	The Braves were always one of my favorite National League teams.
    
    				/Do*

    THe Braves who ??? Is this the Atlanta Braves....What were the odds
    against the braves to go to the World Series at the begining of the
    season...The Braves are better then the Redsox's..What a YEar

    YEah, and the Braves have all those pitchers like Glavine and Smoltz
    and Avery that Sox fans said weren't worth trading the likes of Mike
    GreenTeeth for....
    
    Terry Pendleton and Otis Nixon were fantastic pickups, and Sid Bream
    was activated yesterday (got 2 hits).   The Dodgers lost again...
    
    JD

    	What Red Sox fans are those JD?  The fictional ones you make
    up in your haid?  Darryl Strawberry better start worrying about
    the Braves now!
    
    				/Don

    Naw /Don - the clique in the Red Sox note.  Heck, most of 'em wouldn't
    trade Greenwell for Canseco and Rickey Henderson even up.
    
    JD

    At the time the rumors of Greenwell going to Atlanta were flying, the
    Braves pitching staff looked very sorry indeed.  It took them a couple
    of years to finally live up to their potential.  Who knows, the Braves
    may go the way of the Orioles of a couple of years ago.

    
    > Naw /Don - the clique in the Red Sox note.  Heck, most of 'em wouldn't
    > trade Greenwell for Canseco and Rickey Henderson even up.
      
    Dream on, JD.  Greenwell has had his very vocal detractors for quite
    some time now...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn-
    
    Dream on yourself.   I've yet to see an intelligent trade discussion in
    that file.  Perhaps this year, finally, folks are thinking they could
    dump Mikey or Ellis - now that their worth is down.
    
    I knnow that no matter what I say, you'll say the opposite.
    
    The world is round.
    
    JD

    
    > Dream on yourself.   I've yet to see an intelligent trade discussion in
    > that file.
      
    Now this much I'll agree with.  Most of the trade suggestions are
    along the lines of dealing a Greenwell or a Burks for Vince Coleman
    or Gary Pettis, fercripessake!  Talk about overcompensation!
    
    > I knnow that no matter what I say, you'll say the opposite.
      
    No, I reject the notion that the world of Boston sports fans is
    a single-minded collection of know-nothings that can only be wrong
    because they don't agree with you.  If you have a point, make it.
    You don't have to insult the intelligence of anyone who happens
    to be a Boston Red Sox fan to do so...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn -
    
    Since I'm a Sox fan, I don't hold the views that *you* seem to think
    that I do.  There are a vast majority of boston fans who are
    knowledgeable - just as there are in every city/town/area I've ever
    lived in my life.  
    
    Of all the places I've been - and if you take *big* cities, that's New
    York, Boston, DC and Seattle, I found Boston fans to be the ones who
    over infalte the value of *themselves* and their players the most.
    
    Most of the trades are along the "Marty Barrett and a John Moses Card
    to Chicago for McDowell and Thomas" variety.
    
    Any time an intelligent trade is brought up - especially one that is
    *risky*, i.e. the Sox have to give up a 'prospect'  or a 'name', it is
    quickly shot down.
    
    You'll never get 100% agreement - no kidding!  You got the patent on
    that thought?   You seem to have a kneejerk reaction to defending the
    Sox and Boston whenever a criticism is brought forward.
    
    As I"ve always said "fans are fans are fans - doesn't matter where you
    are."
    
    JD

    
    > You seem to have a kneejerk reaction to defending the
    > Sox and Boston whenever a criticism is brought forward.
      
    Which would be ironic because I'm not from Boston or New England
    originally, absolutely despised the Red Sox until around 1983-84,
    and am not much of a fan of any of the other Boston teams.  I guess
    your opinion of Boston fans comes from closer to the perspective of
    an original insider, and mine as an outsider.  Funny that we perceive
    the same things so differently, and from the opposite inclination...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn -
    
    But I'm not an original Bostoner nor New Englander.  Maybe because I
    went to school in Boston with a vast majority of New Englanders, all
    Boston fans, that have the views that I do.  
    
    Sox fans are a strange bunch.  The Sox are a frustrating team.
    
    I still think they need to scrap 'oldthink' - since it hasn't gotten
    them a title in years, and turn it around.  Maybe a St. Louis Cardinal
    Northeast is what is needed.  Would drive the fans nuts, but if they
    won, they'd love 'em.
    
    Of course, the Sox problems start with ownership - upper management has
    been a joke, and will continue to be one.  They always seem to be on
    the edge of a diving board - but afraid to dive in and get wet -
    because they want assurances that the water is perfect, that they have
    a towell to dry off with, etc.  Even when they make moves - like the
    free agent signing this winter, they seem paralized with fear to make a
    trade.  
    
    As for taking a bad rap - bostoner's take no worse a bad rap than folks
    from Detroit do, or New York, or Miami.  In fact, IMO, they get off
    easier.  Nationally, Boston's problems (busing notwithstanding), are
    kept fairly local, compared to other large cities.
    
    JD

    Went to see the Braves in Atlanta one week ago today. The night they
    climbed into a 1st place tie. Only 16,000 fans in the stands. What a
    disgrace!
    
    Rich
    

    	Yeah but Rich, I think that was the night they had to go head
    to head with the midget car racing finals or something.
    
    				/Don

    Kinda sad, really. They've got this kinda neat stadium that they will
    tear down in'96, an exciting baseball team that only sells out on
    weekends and Georgia Bulldog bumper stickers on most cars. I guess the
    priorities I am used to don't apply there.
    
    Could not believe it only cost $3.00 to park at Atlanta-Fulton County.
    The wife and kids met and shook hands with Homer the Brave. Bought
    tomahawks for the kids. 
    
    Nice to see so many ex-Richmond Braves on the big league roster. Brian
    Hunter, Keith Mitchell, Armando Reynoso and Mark Wohlers were all with
    the R-Braves in June/July. Then, it was nice to see other players I've
    seen in Richmond such as Treadway, Blauser, and Olson. However, the
    R-Braves have been picked clean. Worst record in the IL this year. Poor
    Phil Niekro had little left by the middle of August.
    
    Rich
    

    	Sounds to good to be true Rich.  First you ain't got to deal
    with DockerWearin', VolvoDrivin', PerrierDrinkin', BrieEatin' 
    IzodShirtWearin' yuppie eventgoers.  AND, you get to see real baseball
    not pseudo-softball like you get in the Almost League with lead-footed
    fatsos tryin' to hit homeruns every time at bat.
    
    				/Don

    Doesn't Turner show all the Braves games on TV?  That may have
    something to do with low attendance at the games, plus the fact that
    Fulton County Stadium is downtown and the perimeter and interstate
    system is gridlock from 4pm till 7pm.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    Fulton County Stadium has relatively easy access.  It is one of the
    nicest stadiums I've been in.  To tear it down and build another
    abomination (a.k.a. a dome) is a crime.
    
    And if you don't think that the majority of that crowd are yuppies,
    you're dead wrong.  They, like the Minissotans, have come out on the
    bandwagon and asking friends for good baseball books to read.  This
    after years of not so much as taking a passing glance at FCS during the
    summer months as they passed by in their BMWs.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .208:
    
    About 130 of the Braves' 162 games are shown on WTBS; the remaining
    games are shown on the SportSouth cable channel.
    
    
    py

    o Most Braves home games are on WTBS
    
    o Home games start at 7:40. Traffic on I-75/I-85 not gridlock after 6
    
    o Saw lots of Dockers in the stands and Jags in the parking lot
    
    o The "Chop/Chop" thing is really dependant on the organists whims
    
    o Atlanta Fulton County stadium is CLEAN and easy to get to.
    
    
    The decision was made, while I was there, to defintely tear the
    currenty stadium down. Olympic Stadium will be built, within the next
    few years, in the current parking lot adjacent to AFC stadium. The
    current stadium will be used for some events in 1996 and then it will
    be torn down. The Braves will then play in the new Olympic Stadium
    which will be modified somewhat. 
    
    The Georgia Dome and Olympic Stadium are not the same thing as I
    understand it. The Falcons will play in the Dome as will, most likely
    Georgia Tech.
    
    Of all the inner city stadiums I have been to, Atlanta Fulton County is
    the easiest to reach. Parking is ample and affordable. I guess the only
    thing I don't like about it (and this is based on my Fenway/Wrigley
    bias) is that if you put plastic grass down, it would look almost just
    like Bush Stadium. The place has no character.
    
    Rich
    

    Another dome in pro football....a tragedy to the game.
    
    Yet another reason college football rools, the very low percentage of
    dome teams.  Houston, Syracuse, and Minnesota are the only ones that
    come to mind.
    
    Atlanta will make 7 dome teams out of 30 (after expansion), nearly a
    quarter of the league.  :^(
    
    Joe

    Broke into my daughters piggy bank yesterday so's I could head down to
    the (chop! chop!) Braves game last night.  (chop! chop!)  I was justly 
    rewarded, (chop! chop!) what with three (3) Atlanta hurlers (chop!
    chop!) tossing the first combined no-hitter in NL history! (chop!!!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    It looked like an infield hit to me.  You were there, Chris, so let us
    hear your point of view...and be objective.
    
    Why did they pull the starter if he was throwing a no hitter anyway?
    
    	--dan'l

�    Why did they pull the starter if he was throwing a no hitter anyway?
    
    Probably because he was due up the next inning.  Noone wants to see a
    guy who gets a couple of whiffs, I mean swings, of a bat every 5 days
    in a 1 run ball game.

    I flet it wa an error.  In fact, its that type of 'hit' that is many
    times called a hit that pees me off about official scoring.  Pendleton
    had it the whole way, but I think he saw Belliard out of the corner of
    his eye and misplayed the ball.  Error in my book.  And the decision by
    the official scorer was quick - and he said he would have scored it an
    error if it was the first batter of the game, FWIW.
    
    jD

    re Taking ther starter out
    
    Merckur (sp?) has been a reliever nearly his whole career. The plan
    when he pitches is to get 5-6 good innings out of him.
    
    Why risk runing the guy for the year? 
    
    Rich
    

    re: Why pull Mercker
    
    Rich is right.  He's a relief pitcher whose been called into service
    as a starter because of the Braves complete lack of a 5th man in the
    rotation.  No way was he ready to go 9 innings.
    
    
    re: the error
    
    To be honest, those watching on TV probably have a much better
    perspective on this than I do.  I was sitting out in the left field
    stands - not exactly right on top of the play!
    
    From the replays I've seen though as well as the comments made by the
    official scorer, I agree with JD.  The official reason he gave the
    error to Pendleton was because he started for the ball and then
    stopped.  This can be grounds for an error.  Earlier this year the
    same scorekeeper got a kudo from Sports Illustrated cause he gave an
    error to an outfielder who called for a short pop but then let it drop
    untouched cause of a communication breakdown with his shortstop.
    
    (BTW, the reason Pendleton stopped going for the ball is cause he lost
    it in the lights ...)
    
    Great game.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    When the no hitter was being reported on during the Sox broadcast last
    night they said that the no-no had been broken up by an IF hit.  They
    later reported that the ruling was changed and an error was given on
    the play.  Is this true?
    
    Most of the high choppers I've seen have been awarded IF hits since the
    scorer usually decides that the runner would have beat it out any way.

    That reports was completely wrong Mac.  The scorer *IMMEDIATELY* ruled
    the play an error.  There was no hesitation, and there certainly was no
    changed call.
    
    In the paper this morning the scorer said he was so confident of his
    call that he didn't even bother to look at the replay.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    	'Twas a "Baltimore Chop" hit all the way.  What a homer (not
    Simpson) call.  One that should make a DeanDisciple proud.
    
    				/Don

    
    Based on current, consistent (same standard as if there's not a
    no-hitter) official scoring practice, it's a hit all the way. 
    The ball was chopped very high, and Pendleton would have had to make 
    an exceptional play to even have a chance at throwing Jackson out, if
    he even had that much chance.  That's a hit 100% of the time if there's
    not a no-hitter going.
    
    And either way, of course the official scorer is going to make the
    error decision quickly and then back it up later.  I mean, if he rules
    a hit, he better be ready to flee the stadium being chased by 30,000
    tomahawk-wielding Braves fans.  When you're at the game like that,
    you're not going to be as objective as when you're at home watching on
    TV with the benefit of replay.  I wouldn't be, either.
    
    glenn
     

    Somewhere (notes, papers, ?) I read a suggestion that MLB add another
    umpire to each crew.  The extra umpire would serve as the official
    scorer.  Umps would rotate as they do now so that each member of the
    crew would have a turn in the field, behind the plate, and as the
    scorer.  It was suggested that this would provide consistency and help
    eliminate bias in the scoring.  It would also help get the good umps
    promoted from the minors.

    Bad new for Braves fans -- Otis Nixon, league leader in stolen bases
    and lead off batter for the Braves starting line-up, has been suspended 
    for apparently failing a drug test.  No further details (ie. what the
    suspected drug is, etc.).
    
    What is curious (to me, maybe others will know better) is that drug
    tests are not mandated for Major League baseball players ('least that's
    what I understand).  Rather, they are given if volunteered or if a
    problem is obvious.  Certainly I don't know first hand Otis' case but
    it didn't -appear- he had a problem.  So, perhaps he approached someone
    regarding the issue.  I dunno... 
    
    Suspension is for 60-days which will extend the remainder of the
    regular season, the playoffs, and into next season (beginning today).
    
    -Andy

    Yowaza -  That might really hurt the Braves.  Who takes over left =--
    Lonnie SMith??
    
    JD

    In retrospect, Otis underwent drug rehab while playing for the
    Cleveland Indians (I believe) and may still be under some kinda drug
    rehab program.  If this is the case, it -is- possible he was submitted
    to a random drug test.  In fact, thinking back, it might have been
    about last Wednesday/Thursday -- I think he missed a home game against
    the Padres (no explanation given that I know of).  

    Rumors were flying about earlier on the 6:00 news as to if he can
    appeal or not -- one station said he might be able, another says
    definitely not.  Personally, I think he won't be able to but I'm no
    expert.

    Who'll take his place?  I don't think that's been ironed out yet but
    whoever it is definitely won't be as quick as Otis.

    Keep on choppin'...

    -Andy

- Cincinatti & Atlanta were rained out last night.  Will play a double header
  this afternoon (if the rain lets up).  Dodgers won last night (boo, hiss)
  which puts them up by 2 games.

- Deon Sanders was reactivated as a Brave (currently using Otis' locker).  He
  is expected to be used, at least, as pinch-runner.  Maybe more...  He -will-
  be playing for the Falcons this Sunday against the Saints.  This is the
  only time (that I know of) that a pro athelete has been activated to play 
  two different sports for two different teams at the same time (and in the
  same stadium, no less!).

- Keith Mitchell was arrested last night on DUI charges.

-Andy

    
    	What do you guys think of the trade between the Braves and Cubs? I
    think it is a little too late for a trade, specially for a pitcher that
    might not get a start and will be inelegible for post season...  The
    catcher might be of help...  Wasn't the catcher (can't remember his
    name) highly touted once...
    
    	If the Braves don't make it, it will not be for lack of desire...
    
    	Go Braves!
    
    LT

    Good trade, I think.  Shows they want to win this year.  Bilecki might
    be a help from the bullpen - which has been hurting the Braves lately.
    
    
    Berryhill can spell Olsen for a game this week. He needs it.
    
    As for next year.  Bilecki can be the 5th starter, and Berryhill either
    the starter or platoon with Olsen.
    
    I like it.
    
    JD

    So just what was the trade... I still haven't seen all the players.
    
    Rick

    Trade was Berryhill and Bielecki for two prospects, can't remember who.
    
    Like the trade, but wonder if it's too little too late as far as this
    year goes.  Olson has been slumping in September, probably due to
    overuse, and the Braves sure could have used another arm yesterday with
    Pena unavailable.  (Have to wonder if Wohlers just plain not having it
    yesterday was also a result of being used often lately.)
    
    
    py

�                -< btw, what's up with the BASEBALL notesfile? >-
    
    According to Mike Corbett, the moderator, HECKLE is down and expected
    up sometime today or tomorrow.

RE: Baseball notesfile


	Hope to have it up later this afternoon.  

Tex

	Well it looks like Bill White decided to reverse his suspension of 
the Nastiest Boy because it was in the "best interests of the pennant race". 
BullCookies!  It was in the best interest of the Los Angeles Dodgers!  Now 
while the blue crew are the benefactors of this decision I'm not sure that 
they originated it.  White did this because the fellows at CBS aren't to 
pleased with Minnesota and Toronto being in the ALCS and PittsburgH being one 
of the participants in the NLCS.  Nothing against the teams but the 
television markets are small and while the Braves have the potential to 
capture America's immagination like the '69 Mets did the backroom decision 
makers at CBS would rather a solid TV market team like the Dodgers be the 
other team in the NLCS.  This was a network decision that was pushed on 
baseball.  I never thought Bill White would prostitute himself like this.


				/Don

    
    Anyone know the schedule for the NLCS and World Series?
    
    

    
    Bill White has made some of strangest decisions this year I've ever
    seen.  Stuff like limited or *no* suspensions for obvious beanballs and
    large brawls, a fine but no suspension for Rob Dibble throwing at a
    baserunner "because he's been punished enough", an unprecedended *7*
    game suspension for Norm Charlton because he had the nerve to admit to
    an obvious beanball (hypocrisy at its worst from White), and now the
    startling conclusion that games involving the Reds in September *really
    are* more important than games involving the Reds in June, even though
    the rules don't change according to schedule (and even though the Reds 
    are out of it now!)
    
    glenn
     
    

    Boy /Don, that note looked almost cynical enough to be one_a mine!  (Or
    even MorT's ...)
    
    No doubt you're right - the boys at CBS are pulling for the Dodgers
    big-time.  Wonder if White was on the line to Roger Craig the other
    night, instructing him to leave Righetti in while he was serving nothing 
    but BP to the Dodgers ....
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Ha.  Big deal.  I've felt that baseball's 'rulers' have been full of
    doo-doo for years.  the phrase "The Integrity of the Game" makes me
    laugh whenever I hear it.  It was at its worst under that pompous ass
    Bart Giamatti, and the league presidents and the commish are full of
    it.
    
    How come Don ZImmer hasn't been crucified in public yet?  How come Don
    Zimmer hasn't been proven guilty before due process - like a certain
    ex-Cincy Red was?
    
    Why this move by White?
    
    Baseball is hurting on TV, that's why.  CBS has lost millions on the
    contract, and caint stand the prospect of a Pittsburgh-Toronto world
    series.  They'll go nuts.  The want L.A. and Tommy Pasta and Darryl
    Burrberry and Mike Sciatia there.  
    
    JD

If an investigative reporter, like the kind that prowls around Capitol Hill
ever got the key to Baseball's Closet, so many skeletons would fall it
it would like like a biology lab on "Put the Cat Skeleton Together Day".

There'd be so much dirt in there that MLB would be forced to induct
Shoeless Joe into the HoF post haste.

Can you say Hypocrites?  Sure, I knew you could.....


'Saw

The ultimate ruler of MLB, like all sports is not Bill White, Faye Vincent or
Bart Giamatti's ghost, but the almighty $.  i don't beleive this was always the
case, Judge Landis took no s*it from anyone, he was simply a hateful and 
predudice man.

The past several years, money has made the baseball go round.  I even question
the outcome of the playoffs and series.

=Bob=

    There is some kind of discombobulated logic to this whole thing.  The
    original offense was committed against the Dodgers.  To suspend the guy
    now with the Reds playing the Braves could be viewed as penalizing the
    Dodgers.  Then again, you'd have to subscribe to the theory that
    September/October games are worth more than June games...

    
    	White put three days of Charlton's suspension on hold 
    	until after the three game series with the Braves.
    
    From the local rag:
    
    	"With the close pennant race in the Western Division, it	
    	is imperative that all teams play with their full complement
    	of players in order to guarantee that the competition is 
    	fair and balanced," White said.
    
    	White handed down the suspension one week after the incident
    	at the beginning of a 2 game series with LA.  Charlton
    	appealed, putting the suspension on hold.  He dropped the 
    	appeal Sunday with one week left in the season so it would
    	not carry over to next season.
    
    	"I don't really understand it," Charlton said.  "There's
    	this thing called the integrity of the game that Pete
    	Rose got kicked out for.  They said Pete Rose might ruin the
    	integrity of the game.  Yet Bill White suspends me against
    	LA.  I drop the appeal, and he make me play against Atlanta."
    
    Claybroon

 This Bill White-Norm Charlton thing is truly bizarre.    
 
 Not only does White concede, through his decision, that late season
 games are more important than early or mid-season games.    Not only
 does he directly influence the pennant race in favor of the Dodgers.
 
 But he also jeopardizes the Reds' chances for *NEXT* season.  
 Charlton was suspended for 7 games for admitting that he threw at
 Mike Scoscia and now that White has allowed him to play these three
 Braves games, Charlton will not be able to finish his suspension this
 year.
 
 He'll have to sit out two games of the 1992 season.   White better
 hope the Reds either win the division or lose it by more than 2 games
 because if they lose it by 1 or 2 games, they have every reason to be
 damn angry.
 
 White is doing 'shrooms big time.
 
 Bob Hunt

> White is doing 'shrooms big time.
 
Just so the record is clear on this, he *didn't* get them from me!

'Saw

    
    Bob,
    
    	Let me qualify this by stating that I am a big Reds
    	fan.  Now that we've established that........
    
    	I think Charlton timed this whole thing on purpose.
    	He immediately appealed in time to face the Dodgers.
    	He then gave up the appeal in time to not face the
    	Braves.
    
    	It's common knowledge he HATES the Dodgers (Charlton	
    	that is).
    
    	This is, of course, my opinion.  
    
    	I just might be searching for a new team after all the 
    	bush antics the Reds have been pulling.  Hey!  Isn't
    	Denver getting a team? ;^)
    
    	Claybroon

    Excellent point, Bob-man.  
    
    The Braves pulled off a most-improbable "W" over the Reds lasted night. 
    Down 6-zip after 1 inning, the Reds have Rijo on the mound, ... and
    they pull off the 7-6 win.  Unreal.  
    
    
    re: Wade
    
    I'm a Reds fan too and you very well may be right, but the theory is
    sheer conjecture and certainly could not be used by White to base his
    decision.  Charlton says he wants to get his suspension
    outa the way so he'd be ready for next year, and that's perfectly
    reasonable explanation.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 And two of the Braves runs came off Charlton so perhaps "Justice" is
 being served after all.
 
 Regardless, that still doesn't relieve White from a bonehaid
 decision.  And, furthermore, consider this ...
 
 Bill White based his decision to suspend Charlton's suspension for
 the Braves series because he said he wanted to make sure the pennant
 race competition was as fair as possible and that all the teams
 involved had all their players at hand.
 
 Wonder what Otis Nixon thought of that ???
 
 Bob Hunt

� Bill White based his decision to suspend Charlton's suspension for
� the Braves series because he said he wanted to make sure the pennant
� race competition was as fair as possible and that all the teams
� involved had all their players at hand.
    
    Using this logic, Roger Clemens should never have been tossed out of
    that ALCS game last year.

    re: Otis Nixon
    
    The timing of the Nixon suspension definitely feeds my cynical
    appetite.  Consider that he apparently tested positive way back in
    July, but for some reason or other the league never notified the
    Braves or Nixon.  Apparently there was some question as to the validity
    of his showing up positive (to Cocaine).  Then in the heart of a fierce
    pennant race he gets retested and (surprise!) turns up positive.  What
    a shock it musta been to the league, huh?
    
    I realize it's tough to have sympathy for Otis given that he's
    admitted his guilt, but consider that since his initial coke problem
    in 1987 he's been tested over **TWO HUNDRED** (200) times!  *If* the
    league had noticed the Braves of the questionable test back in July
    there's a halfway decent chance he woulda stayed clean at least through
    the rest of the season.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    

    > *If* the
    > league had noticed the Braves of the questionable test back in July
    > there's a halfway decent chance he woulda stayed clean at least through
    > the rest of the season.                                     
    
    If I'm not mistaken, the Braves and Nixon were fully aware of his 
    marginal positive test.  It would have been kind of hard for them not 
    to be, since Nixon flew to New York to meet with the commissioner to 
    discuss the problem.  ;-)
    
    I don't think the Braves really have a beef on the Nixon suspension. 
    If anything, Vincent let him slide in the "best interests of baseball",
    which can most succinctly be expressed as "whatever keeps our good name
    out of the mud".  The rest of the league could make the argument that
    Vincent was obligated to suspend Nixon the first time, as he was
    technically in violation of his aftercare treatment agreement.
    
    glenn
    

    re: .-1
    
    According to the Braves GM, John Scherhoff (sp), he was never notified
    of the failed drug test.  I believe Nixon had to go to NY because of
    his run-in with a Phillies pitcher who beaned him.  (Otis went after
    him wif his bat.)
    
    
    Chris

                                                 
    > According to the Braves GM, John Scherhoff (sp), he was never notified
    > of the failed drug test.  I believe Nixon had to go to NY because of
    > his run-in with a Phillies pitcher who beaned him.  (Otis went after
    > him wif his bat.)
    
    Okay, that sounds reasonable.  But Nixon definitely knew of the test, 
    and he still stuck his nose back in the bag.  And even if he hadn't 
    known, he still had to know that he was acting in violation of league
    policy and susceptible at any time to getting caught.  No excuses...
    
    glenn
    

    > No excuses
    
    As I said, difficult to argue with this, but I'll always be curious if
    Nixon played for, say, the LA Dodgers, if the same events would've
    transpired ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    This'll be the official note to discuss the NLCS!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Are we making predictions? If so, I'll take the Dodgers to go with
    the Pirates.
    
    	Go big Blue!
    
    B.A._if_not_then_delete_this_note_
    

    Since we already have a topic to discuss the National League, I see no
    reason why the NLCS can't be discussed here.

	I was listening to Sports on W-eee-eee-I this morning and they had 
one of the Dodger players whining about how the Reds laid down for the 
Braves because they were pulling for Atlanta to beat Los Angeles.  What a 
pathetic bunch of crybabies.  All the more reason to root for my Braves!

		/Don(making tomohawk motions as I type this)

    Uh-oh... when does Farley call him a dirty name again?
    
    Dodgers bleed weenie blue...

    re: .-1
    
    Boo hoo!1  Those poor Dodgers ...  BOO HOO!!!!!!! 
    
    Blah.  Guess they forgot about the fact that the same Reds "layed down"
    for the Dodgers a week or two ago, getting swept in LA!
    
    Anyway, after ONE HUNDERED AND FIFTY-NINE (159) games, the Dodgers
    and Braves are in a dead heat.  Advantage has to go to Atlanta right
    now, with three (3) home games against the Astros, while LA travels to
    San Francisco to face a mean Giants team.
    
    Chop!  Chop!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

SEE?????  Just like I been sayin.....
    
    
    Most excellent, wise, thoughtful and profound bit of fair-handed
    
    moderator authority *I've* ever seen!   WAY TO GO! your exalted
    
    moderatorness!!!!!!

    ;^)
    
           <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 3.259               The National League (Baseball)               259 of 262
CHIEFF::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll"                       2 lines   3-OCT-1991 10:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Since we already have a topic to discuss the National League, I see no
    reason why the NLCS can't be discussed here.

Bring the Braves back to Boston where they belong!!!!!!!!!
For cripes sake!

8^)

 Yes, the Braves do have the advantage of playing the lasted three at home
 against lasted-place Houston while the Dodgers have to visit the Stick,
 the traditional house of horrors.
 
 But the Braves also have the pressure of trying to build on a current
 six-game win streak.  It's very very hard to win 9 major league baseball
 games in a row.
 
 If the Braves do win 9 in a row to end the season, they deserve the flag.  
 If the Dodgers sweep the Giants and the Braves then win their 10th in a
 row in Game 163 in LA, then the Braves deserve a parade down Peachtree
 Street.
 
 Must be a new feeling for you, Soup.  You know, rooting for an
 overachieving gotta-love-'em underdog.   Keep up the good work.
 
 Bob Hunt

I'd like to see the Braves do it, if only for the fact that it's someone
DIFFERENT.

I love underdogs.  Underdogs are the American Way of Life.  Overcoming
tremendous odds to win everything...  It's an orgiastic feeling that
pervades the heart of every American....


jmho,
'Saw

    The only problem with the Braves winning is you have all these
    new-fangled yuppie style, tomahawking bandwagon fans like Soup
    strutting their chests.
    
    However, I'd like to see 'em win only because I caints stand Tommy
    Pasta or Darryl Burrberry.
    
    JD

    Who really gives a sh*t who wins the west... The "winner" will lose
    4 straight to the Pirates anyway....
    
    REK

    Rick, that's what everyone said about the As last year too.
                                      Denny

    > The only problem with the Braves winning is you have all these
    > new-fangled yuppie style, tomahawking bandwagon fans like Soup
    > strutting their chests.
    
    This is what I was saying, in favor of the Dodgers, until Tommy Lasorda 
    emerged as a first-rate crybaby down the stretch.  Now I can't think of 
    anything sweeter than the Giants (who I prefer to either team) sticking 
    it to their hated rivals this weekend in Candlestick. 
    
    Still, the Buccos are the only ones left to really hold my interest in 
    the postseason...
    
    glenn
    

    Yeah, but JD, how can you not root for a city that has radio stations
    giving away tix when the listeners hear a slurping sound and call in
    to say "Tommy Lasorda sucks Slim-Fast"?
    

    > The only problem with the Braves winning is you have all these
    > new-fangled yuppie style, tomahawking bandwagon fans like Soup
    > strutting their chests.
    
    Perhaps, but for every such wagon hopper there's a fan like the author
    of .229 (who I remember from the old Braves' notesfile), who's stood by
    the Braves through what were frankly some rotten seasons in the
    mid/late 80s. For those people, you can't help but be happy.
    
    And Glenn Geiger, wherever he may be right now, is surely smilng too.
    
    
    py
                                                               

    Pau. Walt, et al -
    
    Hey, I know that.  Heck, I want the Braves to do it just cuz they kinda
    remind me of the 69 Mets.  I was just making a cut at Soup, who I don't
    remember showing any interest in baseball over the last years.
    
    And yes, I'm sure Glenn Geiger is smiling, wherever he is.  I met him
    in CXO, and he was a super guy.  And heck, Paul, Glenn and I had by far
    the worst DNR teams ;-)
    
    JD

    No interest in America's Pastime, JD????  Where were *you* when I
    boldly predicted a Cincinnati 'W' in the playoffs (after Nazzaro's 
    pre-playoff statement that he thought the Pirates would give the A's a
    nice battle) as well as a Cincinnati 'W' in the WS???
    
    I WILL confess to being a Braves bandwagon jumper.  No way around that. 
    But if you saw the car I was drivin', you'd drop that 'yuppie' label
    but_quick.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    ACChis is to baseball as MrT is to hockey.

JD,

If all you had to root for was a team that wore the prettiest shade
of baby blue, and who achieve excellence during the recruiting season
and regular season, but then who continually choked on Beechnut Strained
Peas in the Big Dance, wouldn't YOU jump on a bandwagon too?  8^)

    I think that the Bucs will beat hooever they play from the west, BUT,
    and that's a huge plate-stacker style BUT, I hope they don't go to
    sleep the way they did lasted year .vs. the Reds.
    
    Drabek has been scheduled to start the NLCS opener nexted wednesday.
    
    Hopefully, Bonds won't go 0 fer NLCS the way he did lasted year, too.
    What got me was he blasted Jeff King for not playing but he suyre
    didn't do anything to prove that he was on the field, either.
    
    Bonds made a pretty big turnaround this year, though, I must admit.
    After batting about .190 thru the end of May, he has played good ever
    since.  
    
    
    JaKe
    

 Yeah, but Soup's bandwagon ride is a little easier to swallow than
 T's illegitmate ride on the North Stars chariot.
 
 I mean the No Stars got into the NHL's worthless playoff system with
 a losing record, fer cripes sake.   And it took an upset win or two
 or three or more before T decided he'd "discovered" ice hockey.   Did
 we hear any manly admissions about how losing teams didn't deserve a
 shot at the Cup ???   Oh, no, all we heard was "miracle this" and "on
 a roll that" and so on and so forth ???   You'd have thought the
 sport was invented in Minnesota, fer cryin' out loud.
 
 At least Soup hopped on the wagon of a team that has to truly earn
 its post-season berth.
 
 But he did succumb to the Tomahawk Chop silliness so he's not
 completely blameless in all this.   He needs to step forward *now*
 and denounce the Chop as an over-hyped media symbol of a one-time
 only bandwagon filled to overflowing with sunshine warriors.   Not
 only that ... he should reject the clearly racist implications behind
 the unfortunate gesture.    Factual intellectual honesty demands that
 he do this *NOW* !!!
 
 Bob Hunt

			    ACC Heelbilly
	(sung to the theme song from the Beverley Hillbillies)

	Come and listen to my story 'bout a man named Cyst,
	A poor Tar Heel fan makin' tommy chops wif' his fist.

	And then one day he started rootin' for the Braves,
	When the good folks of SPORTS started callin him a knave.

	Yuppie that is.  Bandwagon jumper.

	Well the first thing you know ol' Cyst's a baseball main,
	The SPORTS folks said "Cyst cut out whilst you cain".

	They said "'Snuffy and the Heels are the only team you luv",
	"So take your Excellent Losses outta here or we'll give you a shove".

	Tossed off the bandwagon.  Jilted.

    /DON -
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA(TM)
    
    JD

    From USA Today:
    
    From the home office in Tijuana, the top 10 reasons why no one outside
    of Los Angeles is rooting for the Dodgers to outlast the Braves on this
    final weekend:
    
    
    
    10.  Atlanta's tomahawk chop is our best hope for getting rid of the
    wave.
    
    
    
    9.  If the Dodgers win, there will be no escaping Tommy LaSorda's
    Slim-fast commercials.
    
    
    
    8.  Jane Fonda needs the TV time, and Ted Turner will see that she gets
    it.
    
    
    
    7. We've gone this long without seeing Eddie Murray smile.  WHy change
    now?
    
    
    
    6.  Some of us still have a grudge about Al  Campanis' theories on
    buoyancy.
    
    
    5.  We used up the last of the smog and sushi jokes during the
    Bulls/Lakers series.
    
    
    
    4.  Atlanta gives you Justice.  LA gives you gas  wiht the pitching duo
    of Orel and Belcher.
    
    
    
    3.  For a town that has never hosted a sporting event of consequence,
    Atlanta could use some practice before the 1996 Olympics.
    
    
    
    2.  In all of sports, is there any phrase that rolls off the tongue
    more easily than "Beat LA"?
    
    
    1. and the Number ONE reason the world is rooting against the
    Dodgers...If the playoffs are in Atlanta, we'll be three time zones
    away from Sonny Bono's Senate Campaign.

    What is the tie breaker for homefield if the season ends tied?
    Coin flip?
    head to head record?

�    What is the tie breaker for homefield if the season ends tied?
�    Coin flip?
�    head to head record?
    
    A coin flip was held a week or two ago.  I don't recall the result.

�                        -< LA won the coin flip.  :^( >-
    
    And I'll bet CBS provided Bill White with a 2 headed coin and told
    LaSorda to pick heads, right?

    The Coin flip didn't matter!!!
    

       Strawberry says the teams that played da Braves down the stretch
    didn't care about winning. Of course he also said all the teams that
    the Blew played were out to get them.
                                          Denny

    re .288:
    
    The same Daaarrryyll who went 1 for 8 in Friday's and Saturday's games.
    
    The Dodgers didn't lose it down the stretch.  They lost it by not
    putting Atlanta away back in July, when the Braves were 9-1/2 back and
    Justice and Bream were just starting DL stints.
    
    
    py

    I loved it when Darryl whined.  When he was up in the 9th, man on, down
    by two - I told my wife - Darryl will stike out.  He did.  Somethings
    never change.
    
    Braves were 55-28 after the all-star break - best in baseball.  Folks
    are handing the Pirates the Pennant already.  I don't think so...
    
    JD

    > Folks are handing the Pirates the Pennant already.  I don't think
    > so...
    
    Agreed, JD.  The amazing thing to me is that any Pirates fan could
    actually be confident heading into this series.  Consider:
    
    o Atlanta had the best record in baseball the 2nd half
    o Atlanta won the season series 9-3 against Pittsburgh
    o The Pirates supposedly are susceptible to lefties, and the
      Braves figure to throw a couple of tough ones at them
    
    I'm not so sure Atlanta will win.  The Pirates have an experience edge,
    especially in pitching, which I think is significant.  I also tend to
    minimize the Braves hot play down the stretch, cause of Dean's theory
    about tournaments.  (You build momentum IN the tourney, not prior ...)
    
    But the fact remains that Vegas' making Pittsburgh a prohibitive
    favorite would leave me salivating, assuming I was a gambler.  (Which,
    BTW, I'm not.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    >>o The Pirates supposedly are susceptible to lefties, and the
    >>  Braves figure to throw a couple of tough ones at them
    
    ESPN had a graphic yesterday showing the BUcs had the best record in
    the NL .vs. lefties.    Something like 34-16 against left handed
    starters.  Is that being susceptible??????
    
    JaKe
    

    As a Pirates fan, the Braves certainly scare me.  But I'd much rather
    be playing them than the Dodgers.  A few points:
    
    - The Bucs do have an experience edge, but two of 90's Pirates,
    Belliard and Bream, are now playing for Atlanta.  And Terry Pendleton
    adds lots of post-season play experience and leadership.
    
    - Bream will be cheered in Pittsburgh again.  Belliard will be booed.
    
    - The Pittsburgh weather might play a factor.  It's getting cold up
    there.
    
    - One, two, or all three of the Pittsburgh outfielders will be too hot
    to touch.  My guess is Bonilla.  VanSlyke will struggle against the
    lefties; perhaps unstoppable against the righties.
    
    - The Braves might be living high right now and celebrating winning the
    division a bit too much.  They might have a bad attitude of, "Well,
    even if we lose the playoffs, we had a great season."  The Pirates are,
    on the other hand, looking to avenge their horrid October 1990.
    
    - I just think it would be great for Pittsburgh to beat the Minessotta
    Yuppies twice in one year in two major sports.  They have to get past
    the Atlanta Volvos first.
    
    	--dan'l

    Interesting, Jake.  I forget where I heard the lefty thing ...
    
    Haven't read the paper today, but I'd guess the Braves 3-man rotation
    will be either Glavine-Smoltz-Avery, or Glavine-Avery-Smoltz.  Anybody
    hear?  Also, who do the Pirates figure to being throwing ...
    

>Also, who do the Pirates figure to being throwing ...
    
    I would think the Pirates rotation will be
    
    	Drabek
    	Smiley
    	Smith
    
    That would put Tomlin in the bullpen for strong middle relief...if
    needed.
    
    And I'll go out on a limb here for the hell of it:
    
    	Pirates win pennant in five games, Garry Redus MVP
    
    How's that for brash?
    
    	--dan'l

       What I wanna know is: are the Bucs as unstoppable as the '90 As?
                                          Denny

    If the Braves and Twins can go from worst to first in one year, nothing
    says the Rockies can't win the NL West in '93.  :^)
    
    Joe

    Congrats to da Braves. I hope they kick PIttsburgh's ass.

    The Tomahawk Chop is not an Atlanta original, they stole it from
    
    PeeWee Herman's Florida Theater motion!!!
    
    (8^)*    (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey, you guys see the picture of that Braves fan in today's USA 
    Today?  Sorta reminds me of that guy in David Lynch's "Wild At
    Heart."  Haa.
    
    MrT

William Dafoe is the guy from Wild at Heart. Truly nice teeth. Ends up
blowing his own head off but has very memorable seen with Laura Dern. One
can only wonder if the Braves fan suffers similar ignominy.

FWIW, Dafoe made a mark with his portrayal of the title role in "Last
Temptation of Jesus Christ".

TTom

    Willem Dafoe:
    
    Streets of Fire
    To Live and Die in LA (played a most excellent bad guy)
    Platoon
    (some other Vietnam movie with Gregory Hines and Fred Ward)
    Last Temptation of Jesus Christ
    Wild at Heart
    

    
    >>How did LA not win the NL West?
    
    The whole team choked on one of Tommy Lasordid's Ultra-Slim Fascist
    cartons!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >> <<< Note 3.305 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "RussMeyers-UnappreciatedGenius" >>>
    >>               -< I've always been a closet Braves fan >-
    
    
    Right, but you're still in the closet on some things, right
    slasher??????
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

Read in an article not long after his stunning performance in Platoon
(all the performances in that movie were GREAT), but anyway,
Willem Dafoe's REAL name is William.

When he was a kid a baby brother or someone couldn't pronounce William
and it came out Willem.  It was kind of a nickname that stuck, and
he's used it as a stage name since he got into acting.

Some of his friends were so taken by his "death" in Platoon that they
called him to see if he was okay.



Now, as to /Don in the closet, the only thang he doing in there is
desensitizing his filberts for the Olympics, so that if dInz *does*
tickle him there, it won't blow their routine.


Finally, I'm glad Atlanta won.  It's nice to see someone different
in there for a change....


'Saw

    	Be nice boys, otherwise when the Braves beat the Pirates we
    won't let you on this wagon.  We've already thrown Faux and his
    Excellent Losses off.
    
    				/Don

    Dafoe was not a nice man in To Live And Die In L.A. He did have some
    huge ganos though. 

    Big question now is...
    
    Cain the Pirates actually sell out their NCLS games?  If not, maybe
    they cain bring in that stupid-assed Elvis impersonator and Ulf-the-
    Underhanded to perk things up a bit to attract more attendees by 
    working the stands.  If that won't work, I suggest Fay pick up the
    tix and T&L and bus in several thousand real baseball fans from 
    Cincinnati to make for a sellout.
    
    MrT

    re -.312
    
    
    Y A W N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Several thousand fans from Cincinnati,
    Why 3/4 of dem musta be from Kaintuck, so if'n you import 'em to
    Pittsburgh, that'll lower/increase the IQ level of Steel City by a
    significant amount, dependin' on yo' perspective. Since Pittsburghians
    support said-maimster UlfEeeee,I gotsa believe the IQ will be greatly
    increased.
    
    
    And THAT's even admittin' that when several thousand Cincinnati fans
    simultaneously think, all fire dept.'s are put on top alert!!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    >>support said-maimster UlfEeeee,I gotsa believe the IQ will be greatly
    >>increased.
    
    
    >>And THAT's even admittin' that when several thousand Cincinnati fans
    >>simultaneously think, all fire dept.'s are put on top alert!!
    
    >>MikeL
    
    
    Hey Mike, thanks, I was feelin' sorta down today until I read this and
    got a huge laugh out of it.
    
                                  
    BTW, who has 18 teef and an IQ of 136??????
    
    The State of Ohio(not including Clevescum)
    with Clevescum it's
    
    19 teef and an IQ of 63
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball,clari.news.law.crime.sex,clari.news.group.women,biz.clarinet.sample
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 91 10:10:27 EDT
 
	PHILADELPHIA (UPI) -- A New Jersey woman claims New York Mets pitcher
David Cone raped her in a Philadelphia hotel room last weekend.
	Police say they are investigating the allegations by the 24-year-
woman but no charges have been filed.
	The woman says the 28-year-old Cone assaulted her at the Hilton
Towers in downtown Philadelphia on Saturday night.
	Hours after the alleged assault, Cone tied a National League record
by striking out 19 Philadelphia Phillies in the last game of the season.
	The woman reported the incident on Sunday.
	A published report Tuesday quotes a source as saying Cone and the
woman, who were previously acquainted, met at a bar Saturday night and
then went to Cone's room.
	According to the report in the Philadelphia Inquirer, the woman
contends Cone, who was naked, forced himself on her after she gave him a
massage.
	Police spokesman Ed Tenuto says that for now the incident is being
treated as an ``allegation,'' not a rape.

    I see USelessA TODAY researches their facks.
    
    The say, in both an article, and in a picture caption that Andy Van
    Slyke is a "Switch hitter".
    
    Funny, in the years that he's been in Pittsburgh, I've never once seen
    him bat right handed.
    
    JaKe
    

    Pirates win 5-1.  Andy "can't hit lefties" VanSlyke took young Glavine
    deep in the first inning and had an RBI double in the third.  That
    essentially ended it.  So lord knows why Drabek felt compelled to try
    to turn that double into a triple.  He could be out for his next
    scheduled start (Sunday) but the paper today says it doesn't appear to
    be that serious.
    
    Go Bucs!
    
    	--dan'l

    > Pirates win 5-1.  Andy "can't hit lefties" VanSlyke took young Glavine
    > deep in the first inning and had an RBI double in the third.  That
    > essentially ended it. 
    
    yep, when I saw that ball go over the fence I knew right then and there
    it wasn't going to be the Braves' night.
    
    Got a kick out of how Buck and McCarver said absolutely nothing after
    Van Slyke connected...didn't need a bunch of commentary, the crowd
    noise and picture spoke for itself.
    
    
    py

	Van Slyke does have much more of a problem with most lefties.
	Unfortunately for Atlanta, Tom Glavine isn't one of those he has
	a problem with, as his lifetime average vs Glavine is around .370.

	BTW, Doug Drabek's next scheduled start is Monday.  Randy Tomlin
	is slated as the game 4 starter on Sunday night vs Leibrandt.

Regardless of whether Drabek was smart to try and stretch it into
a triple or not, it sure was fun to watch a pitcher step into the box,
swing some lumber, and poke the ball over the CF's haid!


'Saw_who_wishes_the_DH_would_go_AWAY!

    
> Regardless of whether Drabek was smart to try and stretch it into
> a triple or not, it sure was fun to watch a pitcher step into the box,
> swing some lumber, and poke the ball over the CF's haid!
    
    Exackly what I said when it happened...
    
    But, to be fair since he's not here, let's give equal time to the
    opinion of Dan Schneider:
    
    "That poke by Drabek is exactly why we need the DH.  It serves as a
    reminder of how rare such occurrences really are.  Why, the other two
    times up Drabek struck out feebly.  The near-triple is strictly
    anecdotal evidence of the fictional excitement that is generated with 
    a pitcher up at the plate..."
    
    We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
    
    glenn
    

    T'wer a truly excellent game.
    
    Van Slyke for the HoF.
    
    Glavine should go back to hockey.  (8^)*
    
    Bucs in 5
    
    
    JaKe
    

Is Drabek's injury serious?  I heard pulled muscle, but didn't hear if he will
be able to make his next start.

I know Van Slyke gets his share of press, but it was still nice to see him as 
the hero, rather than Bonds or Bonilla.  Taking nothing away from those guys,
of course.

=Bob=

    Lasted nites crowd of 57k+ was the largest crowd ever to see a game at
    3 Rivers Stadium.
    
    Haven't heard whether Drabek's injury is major or not.  ESPN this AM
    said Drabek will be checked today and more will be known later.
    
    Van Slyke earned a major portion of his $4.2 million lasted night.
    
    
    JaKe
    

 Most excellent Glenn!!!!!hahahahahaa

 If I didn't look at the header I'd have sworn I was reading true Schneidisms...

 hahaa

 yup Andy's shot was the game last night. Before it Glavine looked like
 a cool collected customer, after it he looked all hopped up like he'd
 got a bad batch of Saw's Shrooms....

 mike

>	BTW, Doug Drabek's next scheduled start is Monday.  
    
    They're starting the world series on Monday?  ;-}
    
    	--dan'l

    I am as big a fan of VanSlyke as possible.  I got to point this out
    however...
    
    In the post game interview, Andy says...
    
    "Now I know how Cin. felt after taking the first game last year."
    
    Obviously Andy is no brain surgeon.  Pitt won game one last year.  It
    must be nice to be in your own little world!
    
    Rick

    Van SLyke's clubhouse nickname is "Norman Bates".
    
    That about says it all.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Barry Bonds continues to be Mr. Untober.  At two key points in last
    night's game he grounded into a double play and popped up.  The latter
    was especially costly because Bonilla had a lead off double and there
    were no outs in the ninth.  Braves win 1-0 in a terrific pitcher's
    duel.
    
    He better produce in Atlanta or the Pirates might have a long trip home
    next Monday night.  They need to win two or they're done.
    
    	--dan'l

    IMHO, Avery threw a masterpiece at the Bucs lasted night.
    
    What killed the Bucs was the mis-play at third base, which allowed Dave
    Justice to score.   I think it was a combination of Bueschel splitting
    his concentration between getting the ball and tagging Justice, instead
    of concentrating on getting the ball first, then worrying about
    Justice, and one ton of spin on the ball causing it to take a weird
    hop.    When Zane Smith got out of the bases loaded and nobody out jam
    in the second, I thought it would be another oneof the Bucs nights, but
    Steve Avery had different thoughts on that, eh!!
    
    On to Atlanta tomorrow and as --dan'l, Mr Swimmer, said, the Bucs HAVE
    to take 2 out of 3 there or we could be witnessing 1990 all over again.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    > Barry Bonds continues to be Mr. Untober.  At two key points in last
    > night's game he grounded into a double play and popped up.  The latter
    > was especially costly because Bonilla had a lead off double and there
    > were no outs in the ninth.  Braves win 1-0 in a terrific pitcher's
    > duel.
    
    Three-and-one count, too, dan'l.  That really hurt.  Bonds had reason 
    to be upset after that one, although it's generally considered classier 
    to throw your tantrum in the dugout instead of out on the field.
    
    Steve Avery was immense.  I think one of the biggest myths in baseball 
    is the advantage of being the "experienced veteran" in a pennant race 
    and the postseason (as the Braves have shown since the All-Star break).  
    In the last two days we've seen great efforts from Juan Guzman and now
    Avery, who looks like he's still a junior in high school.  If you're 
    good, you're good...
    
    glenn
    

It's too bad that Beucelle will wear the goat's hat for lasted night.  From
what I saw on ESPN towards the end of the season he was rock solid at 3B.  I 
agree that Avery pitched a great game, nothing like a good old pitchers duel/
defensive game.

=Bob=

    Another thing that erks me about the way lasted nights game ended.
    
    (Can't remember who it was that endedn the game at the plate)
    The Guy who got called out on strikes at the end of the game should be
    jabbed in the a$$ with a branding iron.  With 2 out and a guy on third,
    tying run, the game on the line and Pen� on the mound throwing nothing 
    but heaters, if the ball is within 6 or 8 inches of the strike zone, ya 
    gotta swing at it. The pitch that ended the game wasn't even close to 
    being a ball and the BOZO lets the damned thing go by.   Leyland should 
    pull out theo old "reamer" and give the guy a new "southrern end".
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe              

	If all the games are like last night, I hope this thing goes
    7 games.
    
    				/Don

    Jake, nothing used to get me PO'd more than having someone take a pitch
    in that situation, with a count of 2 strikes already.  
    
    Hey, we need a modern-day Yogi Berra.  Hell, he used to pick them off
    of his feet, or even over his head, and get that run in.  Probably was
    THE best badball hitter to ever play.
    
    Lee

 �   Hey, we need a modern-day Yogi Berra.  Hell, he used to pick them off
 �   of his feet, or even over his head, and get that run in.  Probably was
 �   THE best badball hitter to ever play.
 
 Beg to disagree ... Roberto Clemente was the best badball hitter of
 all time.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I don't know about best, but according to my calendar of Hall of Famers
    hanging in my office, this month's calendar boy, Yogi Berra, was "a
    notorious badball hitter."

From: [email protected] (Mike Royko)
Newsgroups: clari.feature.mike_royko
Subject: NICE TOWNS FINISH IN FIRST, AT LAST
Date: 9 Oct 91 16:30:30 GMT
 
MIKE ROYKO
	
	The last time the Cubs made the playoffs, readers in other parts of
the country sent me numerous newspaper columns written by those who
loathe the Cubs, their fans and Chicago.
	They were fun to read because that's part of baseball's charm,
finding some irrational reason to dislike strangers and hoping a flyball
lands on their heads.
	Because the Cubs are so seldom involved in postseason play, I've
always prepared for the playoffs and the World Series by trying to work
up a good hate. It's either that or fall asleep in front of the tube.
	The choice has been easy when a New York team is involved, Yankees or
Mets. The Yankees, because as a child I was taught that they represented
the greedy forces of Wall Street who exploited the workers. My
grandfather taught me that. I later learned that my grandfather was
mostly exploited by bookies and bartenders, but I disliked the Yankees
out of habit.
	And the Mets? Well, any Cubs fan knows why.
	It is also easy to generate an instant grudge against any California
team, with their effete, face-lifted, fanny-tucked movie-star groupies
and laid-back, trend-hopping, glassy-eyed fans. If nothing else, I
merely remind myself that California gave the nation Richard Nixon and
Ronald Reagan. May its grapes rot.
	As you can see, the players have nothing to do with it. The choice of
hate objects is dictated by the city, the state or the region. Sort of
my own personal mini-civil war.
	In a pinch, for example, I can develop an instant hate against
Boston. It's a nice city, but I just remind myself that Harvard is
there, and like any decent, envious, class-conscious American, I'm
filled with resentment. And the thought of Ted Kennedy helps too.
	But this year, generating even a mild dislike is a challenge. I can't
remember any playoffs when there have been four cities so ... I'm trying
to think of the right word ... decent, I suppose.
	Minneapolis. How can anyone dislike Minneapolis? The city is so
clean. The politicians are so honest that they must be retarded. And the
people, most of them well-scrubbed Scandinavians, are so polite and
decent that when they catch a walleye, which is their main recreational
activity, they thank it for biting their hook. And Minneapolis gave us
Hubert Humphrey, the last liberal Democrat who didn't look morose.
	Pittsburgh, another town that can only be described as nice. Can
anyone say Detroit is nice? Or Miami, Chicago, New York or even
Philadelphia? No, but Pittsburgh is nice. It used to be a sooty mill
town, but now it is neat. Many of the people are real ethnics, but they
don't stomp each other out of pride. And I'm told that very few women in
Pittsburgh get their biceps tattooed anymore.
	Toronto. I suppose I could use the fact that it's a Canadian city as
an excuse to sneer and jeer at their efforts to become champions of our
national pastime. (No, not homicide, silly, baseball.) And if it were
Montreal, I might become chauvinistic because in Montreal they persist
in talking French, a language favored by twits and snobs. I even resent
the fact that French is spoken in Paris, a practice calculated to
frustrate American tourists. But Toronto is another clean, civilized
city. And when I visited there, I couldn't help being impressed at how
fluently the natives spoke English, considering that they are
foreigners.
	Atlanta. It is a tempting target because it's in the South, and I've
never understood why Southerners brag about their hospitality when their
roadside restaurants deep fry everything, even spaghetti, and their bars
are populated by beady-eyed guys named Junior and Rufus, who are hostile
to anyone who doesn't have facial bottle scars. But Atlanta isn't like
that. The last time I was there, I ate in a fine restaurant where the
waiter removed the cork from the wine bottle and offered it for my
perusal. That is sophistication. And with a touch of salt on it, it was
the finest cork I ever ate. Besides, Ted Turner is from Atlanta, and
ever since he took up with Jane Fonda, she hasn't said one idiotic
thing, which is her all-time record.
	So I don't know what I'm going to do to generate some wholesome
venom. I never thought I'd say it. Or even think it. And I'm not sure
that I can write it. But I'll try.
	I really miss the Mets.
	
	(C) 1991 BY THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE
	DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.
    

From: [email protected] (Mike Royko)
Newsgroups: clari.feature.mike_royko
Subject: PIRATES COURTING `FACTOR' DISASTER
Date: 11 Oct 91 16:01:41 GMT
 
MIKE ROYKO
	
	It was a year ago, almost to the day, that I was the target of
widespread ridicule and derision. Oh, the hooting and jeering I endured.
	That was the day, shortly before the World Series began, that the
headline above my essay declared: ``A's might as well throw in the
towel.''
	As that headline indicated, I had written that the Oakland A's did
not have the remotest chance of winning the series.
	Some of my sportswriting associates and many readers thought it was
the most idiotically funny thing they had ever seen.
	Didn't I know, they asked, that the mighty A's were overwhelming,
unbeatable, incomparable, and were creating a dynasty? They had won the
previous World Series in four straight. They had just won their playoff
series in four straight. They were like Desert Storm.
	Or, in the words of Ben Bentley, host of the Sportswriters TV
madhouse: ``Could the A's be the greatest team in history?''
	We all know what happened next. Not only did they lose, but they
didn't win one game. They were crushed and humiliated, and they haven't
been the same since.
	So here we are, once again approaching the World Series. And once
again I caution the experts: Don't sneer at a mysterious force that is
so powerful it defies all odds, all logic, and can change the course of
baseball history.
	I'm referring, of course, to the amazing Ex-Cub Factor.
	For those who may be unaware of it, the Ex-Cub Factor works this way:
	Since 1946, 14 teams have entered the World Series with three or more
former Cubs on their rosters.
	As with Oakland last year, some of these teams were thought to be
superior to their opponent. Others weren't that strong. But bulge of
bicep, fleetness of foot, managerial cunning, experience, poise -- none
of it mattered.
	All but one of these Cubs-tainted teams lost.
	That's what happened last year. The Oakland A's had three ex-Cubs.
They lost in four straight games. One year earlier, when they had only
two ex-Cubs, they won in four straight games. Strange, eerie and
terrifying.
	So what does that tell us will happen this year? It tells us that if
the brawny and cocky Pittsburgh Pirates get past the upstart Atlanta
Braves, the Pirates will be doomed.
	That's because the Pirates, in an act of suicidal folly, put four ex-
Cubs on their roster. No other team in the playoffs has the curse of
even three.
	You would think that by now, no team would defy the Ex-Cub Factor. It
hasn't been a secret.
	It was discovered in 1981 by a Ron Berler, a Chicago writer, teacher
and baseball stats nut. He sounded the alarm, but did the experts
listen? No, they sneered and said it had no scientific validity; it was
just a silly, meaningless coincidence.
	That's what they said when the Boston Red Sox had certain victory
within their grasp. Then Bill Buckner, one of their three ex-Cubs, let
that fatal ground ball dribble it all away.
	And that's what they said before the unbeatable Oakland A's, with
their four ex-Cubs, turned to mush.
	Naturally, the ex-Cubs become indignant when it is suggested that
they might be responsible for disaster.
	A reporter mentioned the Factor to Gary Varsho, one of the four ex-
Cubs on the Pirates. He dismissed it, saying: ``No one around here
brings it up or thinks about it.''
	Naturally, he'd say that. If managers ever come to accept the virtual
certainty of the Factor, no ex-Cub would be able to find work. They
might have to file discrimination complaints with the federal
government. But even the bureaucrats might hesitate to take action when
they looked at the evidence.
	Nobody knows why the Cub factor is so devastating. It isn't that the
ex-Cubs are terrible players. Some are remarkably good, such as Dennis
Eckersley, of the A's, who became a big star after he left the Cubs. Of
course, he might have been a big star with the Cubs if he had ever
experimented with pitching while sober.
	Some students of the game believe that having once been Cubs gives
players something called ``Cubness,'' which means that in their hearts
they know they're losers.
	But this theory doesn't hold up. If a team has only one or two ex-
Cubs, their Cubness doesn't appear. Which is why Toronto, with mighty
Joe Carter, an ex-Cub, isn't afflicted. Only when there are three does
the Factor kick in.
	Which has led some scholars, such as Dr. I.M. Kookie, the noted
expert on lots of stuff, to theorize that it is not a curse, but a virus
that becomes active only when there are three carriers in the same
dugout.
	If this is true, one would think that the government would have
launched a research program to isolate this virus and find a cure.
	But as Dr. Kookie says: ``There would be a taxpayers' revolt. With
all the other problems in the world, why spend good money to find out
why Cubs are losers? It's something we have to live with. Like the new
old saying goes: `Two Cubs are company, three's a complete disaster.'''
	
	(C) 1991 BY THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE
	DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.
    

    Pirates take game four, 3-2 in ten innings.  Ex Digital employee Mike
    LaVallier tags clutch hit.
    
    I'm a complete ball of noives.
    
    Goodnight.
    
    	--dan'l

    I just figured something out.   
    
    Eric Gregg is using a chartered "Concorde" plane and travelling at high
    speeds betwixt the ALCS games and the NLCS games.  At the ALCS games he
    is going by the name of Kirby Puckett!!!
    
    
    Many, many (8^)*'s
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs are trying hard to overcome the "Ex-Cub factor", as they have
    more ex Cubbies on their roster than the Atlanta Braves do.
    
    BTW, is it just me or what.  Somewhere near the 3rd inning of each
    game, I'm ready to turn off the TV sound 'cause I'm sick of that Indian
    singing in the stands at Fullofit County Stadium.  Hell, I'd rather
    watch the Steeler games and see Brister's mother 3 or 4 hundred times a
    game than listen to that chanting.
    
    I still say the Braves fans stole the "tomahawk chop" motion from
    PeeWee Herman!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

What annoys me is that you can tell the Atlanta fans are "rookie fans".

Having just hopped on the bandwagon at mid-season or so, they are inept
as to the art of true fandom.

That tomahawk chop thing is SOOOOO hokey, ad are most of the fans.

It almost peed my pant last night, as the camera found these two old
ladies, who most likely had no idea that a curve ball is any different
that a highball, and they're all doing the tomahawk chop.  Stupid.


'Saw

    I HAVE A REQUEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I'm in class out here in Colorado Springs all day today, and the
    Bucs-Braves game starts at 1pm, Colorado time.
    
    Could someone that listens(or watches) today game whilst it is going on
    put some updates in here throughtout the afternoon????
    
    
    It would be DEEPLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

>    BTW, is it just me or what.  Somewhere near the 3rd inning of each
>    game, I'm ready to turn off the TV sound 
    
    It's Tim McCarver that's getting to me.  He adds nothing to the game as
    far as I'm concerned.  "Yes, Tim, I did see the catcher run to third on
    the bunt.  Routine.  You don't have to replay it five times."  Why does
    he insist on reporting the extremely obvious when just the obvious will
    do?
    
    Last year, when Penn State played FSU in the Blockbuster Bowl, the
    Seminole fans did the tomahawk thing the entire game.  At the time, I
    thought it was great.  In fact, I remember saying to myself, "I wish I
    had gone to school there.  That looks like a fun crowd."  Now I'm not
    so sure.  Maybe it's the fact that these adults are the ones doing it,
    including Jane Fonda and the former president of the US.
    
    Actually, when they show the crowd, you can see some old, die-hard
    Braves fans (the few hundred that went to the games even when they were
    losing) just sitting there.  I can almost hear them saying, "For God's
    sake, ya'll, please shut up!"
    
    	--dan'l

    
    >>so sure.  Maybe it's the fact that these adults are the ones doing it,
    >>including Jane Fonda and the former president of the US.
                ^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I must say, for someone in her 50's. Jane still looks pretty good!!
    
    JaKe
    

    While Barry Bonds continues to possess a VERY anemic bat, he does
    continue to play good defense.
    
    I felt he got screwed on being charged with an error on the play at the
    plate in the first inning.  Slaught missed the ball, the throw was on
    the money.
    
    JaKe
    

    The ex-Cubs factor doesn't kick in until the WS.  There is no
    correlation between number of ex-Cubbies and CS performance.

    Come on JaKe, if you were a *real* baseball fan you would've been sick
    today.  :^) :^)
    
    Let's get this straight once and for all: the FSU fans originated the
    tomahawk chop and the Indian chant; the Braves and Chiefs have copied
    it just this year.  I turned on a few minutes of the baseball game last
    night and Atlanta's chant is weak - the FSU fans can make that
    much noise when they're on the road.  You ever watch an FSU home game?  
    That war chant is very, very loud the whole game. 
    
    
    Joe

    I cain't wait till nexted year when my new amour, them Cleveland
    Indians start out of the block in April
    Cain't you feel the emotion!! The 250 Indian fans Chop, Chop, Choppin'
    away!
    
    MikeL
    

    > Let's get this straight once and for all: the FSU fans originated the
    > tomahawk chop and the Indian chant
    
    No one disputes that -- in fact, didn't all this Braves chopping start
    with Deion Sanders (from FSU) doing it in the dugout in an early seaosn
    game?
    
    
    py

    
    >>Come on JaKe, if you were a *real* baseball fan you would've been sick
    >>today.  :^) :^)
    
    I'd kill for one of those SONY Watchman things right now(well actually,
    in about 2 hrs and 45 mins.)
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Ditto on this chanting...  It is stolen and Atlanta and Chief
    fans should have to pay restitution to FSU! :-)
    
    	I'll admit, a couple of years ago when I watched FSU for the first
    time against Miami and their fans were doing that chant, I felt the
    same as Dan'l...awesome chant.  This is what college football in
    general is all about.  To this day, when I hear it, it sends chills
    up and down my spine.  Greatest cheer I've heard, and I think it is
    pretty un-imaginative for these other teams to adopt it as their own.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Between McCarver's innane chatter and the war chant, I'm glad I have a
    mute button on the remote control.  The headaches are getting to me.
    Why can't the fans in Atlanta just scream, yell, and throw stuff like
    the rest of the country?
    
    Rick

    
    Does anybody have an update to this afternoons game?
    
    
    steve

    If someone with brains went into Fullofit County stadium in Atlanta,
    and went to each fan with a fake foam tomahawk, and shoved the thing
    down the owners throat, what would the maintenance crew have to clean
    up under the seats after the game????
    
    Toma-HOCKERS!!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    zip-zip after 2.  Braves just had the sacks saturated with no outs,
    but failed to score.
    

    Bucs go down 1-2-3 in the top of the third.  In the home half of the
    second... Glavin fails to get the suicide squeeze bunt down... the
    Pirates get a double play.
    
    Rick

    0-0, Braves batting in bottom of 4th ...
    

    Braves seemingly go up 1-0 in the 4th, as David Justice scores from
    2nd on a single.  
    
    BUT NO!!!!!!!!!!  He missed 3rd base!!!!!!  Declared ***OUT***!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    ANd a bizarre bottom of the 4th.  Justice hits a grounder toward lind
    that Redus fields and throws away - Justice to 2nd.
    
    Hunter hits a tapper in front of plate, and is called out on
    interference - just like Armbrister/Fisk, I guess (I'm listening on the
    radio, not watching...)
    
    Then Olson hits a line drive to center, that is questioned if it is a
    catch or not.  It is.  2 outs, Justice on 2nd.
    
    Lemke singled, Justice scored - but is called out when Smith throws
    ball to Buchele at 3rd - Justice missed the base...
    
    Braves are squandering lots of chances...
    
    JD

    Bonds just popped up to lead off the fifth.  Oh wait, that's not knew. 
    You probably could have guessed that.
    
    VanSlyke did indeed catch that ball in the bottom of the 4th.  No question.
    
    

    Beuchel and Slaught on first and second, 1 out.
    

    Beuchel scores on Lind's RBI single.  Pirates lead 1-0.

    Good work --dan'l, JD, and ACChris, keep it up, I got to see the 
    lasted out of the 4th whilst on break but it's back to serious learning
    now.
    
    Mucho Appreciated
    
    JaKe
    

    Pirates strand Slaught and Lind, lead 1-0 going into bottom of 5th.

    Atlanta threatens in bottom of 5th but comes up empty.  Smith pitching
    well.

    VanSlyke doubles off Glavine.  Deadmeat of the order coming up with one
    out in top of 6th.  
    
    Bonilla being intentionally walked.  Here you go, Mr. Bonds.  Time to
    deliver.

    Bonnds strikes out looking.  What a freaking bum.

    Beuchel grounds out for third out.

    1-2-3 inning for Smith in bottom of 6th.

    1-2-3 inning for Glavine (Smith being third out).

    Braves go down 1, 2, 3.
    
    

    Top of the 8th, 2 outs, Bell on third.  Again they intentionally walk
    Bonilla to pitch to Bonds and true to form, Bonds flies out.  Still 1-0
    Pirates in bottom of 8th.

    Bottom of 8th, 2 out.  Pendleton triples.  Leyland replacing Smith
    w/ Roger Mason ...
    

    Pendelton hits two-out triple in 8th.  Leyland calls for Roger Mason.

    Beat ya to it, dan'l!
    

    This is just like VAX PHONE!
    

    Gant pops up.  1-0 after 8.
    

    Roger Mason shuts down Braves.

    Pirates get Beuchel to third with two outs.  Leyland does not hit for
    Mason.  Tries suicide squeeze.  Pena balks (yes it looked like one to
    me, he had his hands up and set for a second) but it isn't called. 
    Leyland pretty POed.  Mason strikes out.

    Hey, I don't wanna place a down note in here but we were watching
    the game last night and everybody was noticing how tentative, even
    defensive, the Pirates were playing.  Then on came a shot a Jim
    Leyland smoking a butt in the dugout.  Some wag in the room then
    commented, "no wonder Leyland's smoking and the Pirates need dumb
    errors to win games - the Pirates' coach looks like a_AIDS victim,
    so he figures he doesn't have long to live anyway and the players 
    just want to finish these games and git out a the lockerroom and
    shower back at the hotel!"
    
    Unfair comment?  Maybe.  But this had to be reported.
    
    MrT(wins Win)

    One out, bottom of ninth, Braves have runners on first and second.

    Roger Mason pitches out of jam.  Pirates win 1-0.
    
    Zane Smith player of the game.

    Re .389
    
    "T" go tell your mother she wants ya.   Already trying to stir things
    up for the BUcs/Minnysoda series that the Bucs will take in 6, huh??
    
    re --dan'l and ACChris, thanks tons for the updates.  DEEPLY
    Preshkiated!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    From what I just heard, Wed. game will be Drabek .vs. Avery.
    
    I guess we'll get to see what Avery is really made of cause there'll be
    no tomorrow for the Braves(I hat using clich�s, BUT...).  Avery will
    have more pressure on his shoulders than he would if Eric Gregg was
    sitting on them.   (8^)*  (8^)*
    
    Barry Bonds, as --dan'l has stated before--has sipped indiscreetly
    thruout the NLCS.   He's trying too hard to hit every ball out of the
    park, hence, the tons of infield popups and short flyballs he's hit in
    the series.   Hell, when, during the regular season, does anybody
    recall them walking Bonilla with runner(s) already in scoring position,
    let alone doing it twice in one game???????
    Show how much the Braves respeck Bonds, don't it??
    
    JaKe
    

    FWIW, 
    
    Barry "0-fer" Bonds is 3 for 20, .150 avg, with NO RBI, with 3 stolen
    bases.
    
    JaKe
    

    I just looked for this note today, and found it to be enjoying.  (esp
    the "What a freaking bum" comment about Bonds)
    
    
    It's amazing that Bonds has come up to be such a bum in post-season
    play.  (and I wish that nitwit would stop saying "he's always
    dangerous when he comes to the plate")   I took in three games in
    Pittsburgh this summer (they sewpt the hated Mets) and Bonds was on
    fire.  The guy can really hit the ball, but this week he sucks!
    
    Other comments:
    
    	Bonds got a bum rap for the throwing error
    	Jay Bell was out at third
    	Both teams have squandered more runs in this one series than
    	  I've ever seen before
    	The Pirates are the better team, but they sure aren't playing 
     	  Like it.
    	Leland took a hell of a chance today letting Mason hit
    	  (he would have been in serious trouble if the braves had scored)
    	Why do these games start so damned late?  Last night's 12:30 finish
    	  was a pain in the ass.
    	Is Doug Drabek really that stupid to try to stretch it to third?
    	Is Leland that stupid to encourage that behavior?
    	The Atlanta fans are obnoxious with their chop.  It was neat the
    	   first time I saw it
    	Tim McCarver is an idiot
    
    And finally
    
    	I'm Soooooo Jealous of my brother, who has tickets to Games 6/7 of
    the NLCS and games 3/4 of the World Series.
    
    
    -bill
    From Pittsburgh
    
    

    Barry "I want 4.2 mil" Bonds may not need to wake up...
    
    VanSlyke's comment about bad Pirate pitching sure looks stupid now...
    
    The much maligned Buc pitching appears to be good enough.  Mason really
    did a great job today.  Five pitches to Gant and not one ball.
    
    How good are the Pirates at catching the ball in the OF?  As good as it
    gets.
    
    This series may be over in game six.  Thank goodness the chant is
    history for this NLCS!
    
    Rick

    
    The Pirates may just yet win this thing, but I gotta admit that they're
    giving me heart failure doing it.  The Braves have outplayed them, but
    just aren't pulling the trigger on situations.  Two tight games in a 
    row where an Atlanta win probably pushes the Bucs over the edge for
    good, but they manage to pull 'em both out (thank gawd that Cox pulled
    Mercker last night; I had a good feeling about the forgotten free agent 
    Spanky Lavalliere-- Smokey Burgess reincarnate-- coming through, what 
    with all this billion-dollar talent around him floundering).  Hopefully 
    Game 6 will be short and sweet, with the Bucs finally breaking loose at 
    home.
    
    It's everyone's greatest nightmare looking like it'll be back from the 
    dead: Pittsburgh versus Minnetwinky (no cockiness here; until counted 
    out these Braves are still alive).  Gotta hand it to those northerners 
    to keep coming back from adversity, only to be hammered down again...
    
    glenn
    

>    - the Pirates' coach looks like a_AIDS victim,
>    so he figures he doesn't have long to live anyway 
    
    T, this is one of the most offensive and insensative comments I have
    ever read in this conference.  Please be a little more careful in the
    future.
    
    Bill Jackson, were you at the Saturday game in August when the Bucs
    swept the Mets?  So was I!  Two SPORTS noters so close and not getting
    together?  What's wrong with us?!?
    
    	--dan'l
    

        That stupid war chant is starting to make the wave look good!
                                          Denny

    Re -1   I'll second that! Just a bunch of yuppies trying to get back to
           nature learning how to chop firewood. Please.....somebody make
           them stop!
     
                                                   Night Flier  ~~v~~

From what I saw of the highlights of yesterday's game, it looks like the Braves
came down with a case of Red Sox disease (not beign able to come up with 
important hits).  

I heard on the radio this morning that replays reveal that David Justice did
indeed graze third base with his spikes on the way by.  Think of the uproar if
baseball had an instant replay official, and changed that ruling!!11

=Bob=

BTW - thanks again for the updates, guys

    There was a miniscule puff of white powder only visible on super slow
    instant replay.  The fact that Justice didn't even argue the call says
    that he himself didn't feel his foot hit third.  Good call.
    
    	--dan'l

    Umpire Crew Chief Doug Harbey's version of what happened yesterday,
    from USelessA TODAY:
    
    -on Dave Justice's failure to touch third after scoring on Mark Lemke's
    single:  "If you notice on replays, he went around third, held up and
    then broke.  He had a thought in his mind that he had missed third
    base.  That was the tipoff right there, when he stumbled, took a step
    back toward third and then broke for home"
    
    -On Andy Van Slyke's running grasstop catch of Greg Olson's liner
    "There was a catch and Dana DeMuth from the left field line ran out and
    called it immediately.  There was no doubt in my mind on it."
    
    -on the batter's interference against Brian Hunter:  "The hitter hit
    the ball, and he moved out in front of the plate and stood there.  Then
    he didn't make an attempt to run and they collided.  He never made an
    attempt to run."
    
    JaKe

    First, it always amazes me how snobbish fans are.  Whenever a team that
    hasn't been in the playoffs for a while gets in, and their fans show
    some enthusiasm, 'real' fans get down on them.  
    
    I think the chant is pretty neat.  I cold do without the foam tomahawks
    - but hey - i like them better than white hankies or green weenies.
    
    What's the big deal - what's the proper way to cheer.  Perhaps someone
    in this conference should write a book (hey, maybe we could collaborate
    on it) about the proper way to cheer at a ballpark.
    
    No doubt, most folks would want to use say, Boston fans, as models.  
    
    On the Series;
    
    I thought the Suicide Squeeze was a stupid call by Cox.  Bases loaded,
    let the pitcher strike out, and have your #1 and #2 men try to bring a
    run in.   
    
    Also, I think Cox should be playing Bream instead of Hunter.  Bream
    gets pumped up playing his ex-mates, plus he has experience and soul.
    I don't care about the lefty/righty thing.  I think using Hunter must
    make Leyland and the Bucs happy.
    
    JD

    	Justice did touch third and lucky for Barry Bonds that the umpire
    blew it because he would've had to answer why he double pumped and
    held on to the ball so long then made a bad throw to the plate.
    I wonder if Ed Armbrister watched the game?
    
    				/Don

    
    re: -2
    
    	Wait a minute...the green weenie is sacred!  The green weenie was
    seen as a lucky charm to the 60 Pirates.  It just didn't develop over
    night during the world series.  You can't even put foam tomahawks in
    the same class as the green weenie!  
    
    	It seems as if Pittsburgh fans have a special place in their hearts
    for these lucky charms..  I can think of three.  The green weenie which
    helped propel the Pirates to the 60 series win.  The terrible towel
    which came along way before SB XIII, but helped propel the Steelers
    to 2 additional SB titles, and the babushka (sp).  The babushka was
    not as evident as the other two, but it was a trendy thing in the early
    70's for the Pirates.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
    	Not that it means anythang now, but Justice DID touch
    	3rd.  Jake, Glen Johnson, and I all saw the replay at
    	my house.  We all agreed he touched it.  It was ever
    	so slight, but that "puff of chalk" came from off the
    	top of the bag, not the foul line.
    
    	Claybroon

    
    re:-1
    
    	Well, there's a decent shot in the Boston Herald that shows Justice
    not touching the bag as he rounds it.  The shot is from slightly above
    the thrid base line directly in line with the bag.  The bag is in the
    left of the photo and Justice is on the right side about a foot away
    while turning.  
    
    	To be honest, I didn't see the play, but from this picture, it
    is pretty clear that he didn't touch the bag and that the chalk dust
    people are talking about is from the line.
    
    							bill..g.
    

 �   -on Dave Justice's failure to touch third after scoring on Mark Lemke's
 �   single:  "If you notice on replays, he went around third, held up and
 �   then broke.  He had a thought in his mind that he had missed third
 �   base.  That was the tipoff right there, when he stumbled, took a step
 �   back toward third and then broke for home"
 
 Hey, that's pretty nifty there.   Now we've got mind-reading umpires.  
 What's next ???   Mood interpretation ???   Dream weavers ???   Karma
 analysts ???   Biorhythm experts ???
 
 I can see it now ... 
 
 "Well, as he went into his stretch, his heart rate was way up, his EEG was
 all over the scale and his galvonic skin response indicators were pegging.  
 Coupled with the fact that he's a Gemini, it was a balk all the way.   No
 doubt about it."
 
 Over the lasted 20 years or so, the baseball umps have increasingly upped
 their media exposure and their public persona.    Whether it's
 controversial calls or public staredowns with players and managers, they
 feel a consistent but insecure need to make sure they're heard.   
 
 They won't do it but they need to just shut up and call the games.  They
 have all the authority on the field they're ever going to need or get. 
 Why can't that be enough for them ???
 
 Bob Hunt

RE: .399

Yea, I was there for all three days in August against the Mets.  


-bill

 What slays me about the call is that when you look at Alomar's supposed
 double play the other day when he spread-eagled the bag and the other
 automatics they give the defense that they could turn around and call
 that. I for one also thought he grazed the top of the bag....

    
    	A still photo has nothing on a slow motion replay....
    
    	Claybroon

    
    A slow motion replay has nothing on a split-second call on the field.
    
    Thank goodness baseball is still pure.
    
    	--dan'l

    From the angle on the slow-mo replay I saw, it appear that Justice
    brushed the bag.
    
    That being said, failure to get anything across with bases loaded and
    none out in the second croaked the Braves just as much as any calls/
    noncalls....
    
    
    py

    BTW, Bonds double pumped because he saw Justice was at a point of
    indecision.  Justice had already stumbled by third and the third base
    coach was waving him home.  Justice, it seemed, feeling he had missed
    third faultered and thought about going back to the bag; that is when
    Bonds double pumped...why throw home when the runner isn't going?
    
    Bonds made a good throw (not excellent, just good) and it just happened
    to skip in there at the same time Justice did.  Slaught should have
    come up with it.
    
    	--dan'l

    Bonds is getting a bum rap everytime he does something in the field. 
    Both throws he's made were more than adequate.  LaValliere makes BOTH
    plays.  Slaught just isn't quite as good.  People love to pick at Bonds
    because his attitude sucks.
    
    Rick

    
    dan'l
    
    	I didn't mean to imply baseball needs instant replay.  I
    	hope they never institutue it.
    
    	Just pointing out a bad, easy to miss, bad call.........
    
    Claybroon

    
    	Quote from the local rag:
    
    		"I know I touched it," Justice said.  "It's the
    		 only reason I kept going."

    FWIW, in USelessA TODAY the Braves' 3rd base coach is quoted as saying
    he thought Justice missed the bag.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    OK, enough about whether Justice hit the bag, VanSlyke made the catch,
    Slaught should have come up with it, Cox should not have squeezed, etc.
    Game's over.  Pirates lead series 3-2 going back to cold Pittsburgh.

    A few Q's:

    	- Does anyone think Avery will pitch tomorrow as well has he did in
    	  game two?  Think the hamstring will knock Drabek out early?

    	- If the Pirates win this thing, who is your NLCS MVP?  No one
    	  has stood out for the Bucs.  Bell is hitting .400+, Lind leads
    	  in RBIs, Beuchel has had a good series.  If Avery does a number
    	  on Pittsburgh tomorrow night, but the Pirates win Thursday, it
    	  very well could be young Steve in a losing cause.

    	- If Bonds should get an extra base hit at some point tomorrow
    	  night, does anyone else besides me think he'll be unstoppable 
    	  after finally doing so?

    Go Bucs!

    	--dan'l

    	Sorry but Bonds throw was not good.  He was in very shallow
    left field and there is no way any other catcher could've made the
    play because the throw was to the first base side of the plate and
    got there just before Justice crossed the plate.  I for one think
    Bonds is the MVP in the National League this year, but the throw
    still sipped big time.
    
    				/Don

    >     Does anyone think Avery will pitch tomorrow as well has he did in
    >	  game two?
    
    He very well might, but then one has to ask the question -- will the
    Braves score enough runs to make it not count for naught?
    
    
    py

    >Thank goodness baseball is still pure.
    
    It's good to see you publicly confess that you consider plastic
    rugs in keeping with baseball's purity, dan'l.  Also, I look forward
    to your extolling this same purity when the Pirates send in their
    first Designated Geek against the Twins.
    
    MrT(wins Win!)

    "T"
    
    At least in baseball they don't stop after every play, even the obvious
    ones, and let some BOZO watch the play 35 times from 35 angles to see
    if it was called correctly.    I'll hate it when the "designated
    horrible defensive players" get to bat in place of the pitchers when
    the games are played in the HHH Metronome, but that's the rules,
    nomatter how assinine they be.
    
    The ManySordid Twinkies will fall in 6!!!take it to the bank.
    
    JaKe
    

    That brings up an interesting point.  If the Pirates do make it to the
    series, who will be the DH?  MacLendon, Varsho, or Wilkerson I suspect. 
    That's pretty scarey.  If the Braves go, Bream is the easy choice.
    
    	--dan'l

    QUESTION:::
    
    Jim Leyland asked the league if he could use one roster(from the
    eligible pool) for the NCLS, and alter that roster if the Bucs made the
    World Series(presumably for the purpose of the designated lousy fielder
    or gimpy kneed player).  What did the league say about
    this???Approve-disapprove?????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Fess up, T.  The baseball atmosphere in Minnesota is as "impure" as it
    gets anywhere in the world.  Dome, turf, baggies, baffles, speakers-- 
    you name it, it's there-- *and* The Geek.  How cain you live with
    yourself?  
    
    On the umpire thing: it's just as much the umpire's responsibility to
    make sure that a player touches all the bases while traversing them 
    as making sure he's missed one.  Let's be honest:  Justice stumbles, 
    stretches out his big toe to just barely brush the bag, if even that 
    (and which *maybe* he felt but no mere human being was going to see), 
    rounds it, STOPS, and looks back, and the umpire is arrogant and 
    incompetent for calling him out?  Hey, you'll see at least one call 
    worse than that almost every time out...
    
    glenn
    

         It seems we have allot of questions as to if Justice touched the
    bag or not. In a still photograph it looks as if the bag was not
    touched but in a replay there is dust being kicked up. Not much dust
    though mind you. Personally even though I see the dust kick up a little
    bit I still do not see Justice's foot touch the bag. It brings me to
    this....if you were to have dust on the bag and sweep your hand across
    it at the same speed as Justice's foot was crossing the bag you would
    see dust fly. This is just my opinion and other people may differ but
    it may have just been the breeze from his foot causing dust to fly. In
    any case the Umpire was looking right at it and it is his call. It was
    just smart of Pittsburg to appeal at third.

                                                   Night Flier  ~~v~~
                                                

>    just smart of Pittsburg to appeal at third.
    
    CBS had a great replay angle of Jay Bell trailing Justice and his eyes
    (best I can tell through his sun glasses) are focused right on
    Justice's feet.  Jay Bell is the one who made the appeal.
    
    Think about that for a second.  When you're playing softball and a
    batter hits the ball to the outfield, where are you looking?  Guess
    that's why the dudes in the majors get paid big buccos.
    
    	--dan'l

    Point well taken, Mark.  My point, however, was that it was hard for me
    to feel sorry for Helms.
    
    Two wrongs don't make a right.  Nor do hundreds.  Let's all be a little
    more sensative, me and T included.
    
    	--dan'l

    Case closed.
    
    Thanks, Dan'l.
    
    Mark.

    Speak for yourself, Dan'l.
    
    The single most offensive comment I've ever read in here was your
    distasteful, oppresive, obscene, pornographic, lurid, harrassing,
    embarrassing, humiliating, and unjust equation of AstroTurf with
    baseball purity.
    
    >How cain you live with yourself
    
    Easy, Waugamain: I don't say anything nice about the place, and only
    go there once a year (postseason excepted).
    
    MrT

>    embarrassing, humiliating, and unjust equation of AstroTurf with
>    baseball purity.


I wonder if the inner city youths that Willie Mays used to go play
baseball with after a Giants game ever thought their brand of
baseball any less pure because it was played on asphalt?

If the game brings pleasure, and the smiles, sweat, strain, concentration,
and joy are present in the players, then how is the game not pure?

Is the game not greater than the surface on which it played?  Is the
game not stronger than the attempts to fence it in and dome it?

The only abomination, IMO, to sully the game is the designated hitter.


'Saw

    
    	Anyone got any news for us 2nd shifters?  Last I heard it was 0-0 in
    the 1st in.
    
    
    B.A.

    re: .-1
    
    The Braves are putting on one of the most enemic offensive displays
    ever seen in the history of playoff baseball.  They've now gone 26
    straight innings without scoring a run!
    
    0 - 0 going into the bottom of the eighth ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Its 0-0 going to the top of the 9th.
    
    line score thru 8
    
             R  H  E
    Atlanta  0  6  0
    Pitts    0  3  0

       A classic game 6.
    
       Braves won it 1-0 in the top of the 9th.  Gregg Olson 
    singled down the 3rd base line to score Ron Gant for the 
    only run.  Braves sent in Pe�a and the Pirates sent in 
    Gary Varsho to PH for Drabek and he singled.  Redus sacrificed 
    him to second.  Jay Bell flied out, and Varsho advanced to 
    third on a wild pitch by Pe�a.  Van Slyke struck out looking
    at a change-up to end the game.  Can't help but wonder if
    the Braves would have walked Bonilla to get to Bonds had
    Van Slyke got on base?  
    
       Though neither Smoltz nor Smiley pitched particularly well 
    in Game 3, the advantage would have to be with the Bucs since   
    they're at home.  10 of Atlanta's 15 runs came in that game 3
    romp.     
    
       
    						 glen j.
    

    I just loved that pitchers' duel last night.  What an awesome display
    by two terrific arms.  Hard to believe that Drabek ends up with the L.
    
    I think the Pirates are done.  The team that won the NL East was not
    the team that lost in the ninth last night.  VanSlyke has been in a
    position to win three games and has struck out or grounded out in each
    instance.
    
    I'm teaching class tonight so I'll probably miss the first four innings
    or so.  I fully expect to return home with the Bucs in the hole by
    about five runs.  It's over.
    
    Freakin' Bonds.  Trade the chump tomorrow!
    
    	--dan'l

    I sat down for about the last 4 innings and saw some exciting baseball.  
    I don't follow baseball that much and am not a fan of either team (I'm
    pulling for the Braves though) but I was on the edge of my seat the last
    couple of innings.  Van Slyke sure extended the drama with all those
    foul balls he hit.  Gant should've caught that lead-off hit in the ninth,
    which looked more like an error.  That double play turned by the Braves 
    in the 6th was a thing of beauty.
    
    I don't think the Braves should've pinch-hit for Avery in the top of
    the 9th.  The guy had given up only 3 hits thru 8 innings and you've
    just broken on top by a run - why take a chance on changing pitchers? 
    Granted, they did have a runner in scoring position but in a tight game
    like this I think they should've left it up to Avery after they got the
    1-run lead.  
    
    Joe

    I just read in the paper that Avery told Cox he requested to be
    pinch-hit for because he felt he was losing a little.  
    
    Joe

    	What a magnificent game.  The only downer is that after watching
    the two best teams in baseball battle down to a deciding 7th game,
    the World Series against the "Spamball" champion will be such an
    anticlimactic event.  Although I picked the Braves to win, all I
    can say is bravo to both teams and good luck (although they shouldn't
    need it) to the winner in the Series.
    
    				/Don

    Avery threw another masterpiece lasted night, no doubt about it.
    
    It still erks me to see a game end on a called strike!!!
    Van Slyke had battled Pen�, fouling off a slew of fastballs, and was
    probably looking for a fastball when Pen� goes and throws a bender.
    
    --dan'l,
    I wouldn't give up on the Bucs yet.  With Smoltz in there, Merced will
    be at first and Lavalliere will be behind the plate, and both are
    better hitters than their replacements against lefties.  Smiley had a
    bad outing in Atlanta, but I look for him to throw a good game tonight,
    and for Smoltz to get knocked around by the 6th inning.  
    
    I hope the Bucs take it tonight, 'cause if they lose, there's no
    telling how far they'll make it nexted year, with the team starting to
    get broken up after the season.
    
    Bonds is taking the art of "Sipping Indiscreetly" to a new level, with
    his performance in this series.
    
    One last thing, WHY, with Drabek throwing nothing but breaking balls in
    the ninth, wasn't Buechele playing closer to the line??????He must've
    been 10 feet off of the line, with Olsen sure to pull the breaking ball
    if he got the chance, which he did, and the rest was history.  Also,
    why didn't Leyland have Drabek throwing over to 1st to try to keep Gant
    closer???Was he afraid of an errant throw?????
    
    Ah sh!t, gotta sweat one out tonight!!
    
    JaKe
    

    - Gotta agree with JaKe on where Buechele was stationed.
    
    - Drabek had struck Gant out, McCarver even said so, but the ump didn't
    give him the call and that ran the count full.  Bummer.
    
    - The strike to VanSlyke looked more like a ball than the
    aforementioned called ball that Drabek threw to Gant.
    
    - Bary Bonds can make up for everything tonight.  I can only hope he
    will.
    
    - Anyone notice the Pirates fans behind the plate last night doing the
    horizontal chop? 
    
    - Pittsburgh is a beautiful city.

    
    
    >>- Pittsburgh is a beautiful city.
    
    I am decidedly biased, BUT, I think that Pittsburgh at night, with all
    of the lights on, is one of the most beautiful cities I've ever seen.
    
    Anyone who has come into the city from the west at night, and come thru
    the Fort Pitt tunnels has to agree that the view upon exiting the
    tunnels is AWESOME.  Anybody who visits the city, MAKE SURE for the
    BEST view, go to the West End Overlook.
    
    >>- The strike to VanSlyke looked more like a ball than the
    >> aforementioned called ball that Drabek threw to Gant.
    
    I agree, BUT, Whether Van SLyke was fooled on the pitch or not, it was
    a close enuf pitch that Van Slyke should've made an attempt, even if it
    was feeble, at trying to foul the thing off.  It pisses me off to see
    someone watch strike 3 go by, ending the game, with the tying run on 
    third!!
    
    JaKe
    

 What a great game !!!   Filled with so many tiny events that were
 absolutely titanic in scope.   Baseball at its exquisite finest.
 
 Lonnie Smith slides ever so slightly past second base on a steal attempt
 and is tagged out.    Makes up for it a few innings later with a perfect
 throw to cut down a shocked Don Slaught.
 
 Tim McCarver sets up the situation perfectly by insisting that Gery Redus
 will *not* ground into a double play because a) he hasn't done so all year
 long and b) Avery is throwing high in the strike zone.    
 
 Whap ... grounder to Bream and he and Belliard turn one of the most
 beautiful double plays you will *ever* see.    The 3-6-3 DP is an
 extremely tough one to pull off and those two ex-Pirates did it
 beautifully.   Noticed that McCarver didn't chew any crow on his setup,
 though.  He should have.
 
 Ron Gant steals 2nd in the top of the ninth.   He does *not* score on
 Olson's hit if he had stayed at first.   "Little ball" at its best.
 
 Pena throws his only off-speed toss of the night on the final pitch and
 Van Slyke is totally frozen.  Even Froemming's punch out call was
 off-speed so even the ump was fooled by it.    Beautiful pitch.   What
 pitching is all about.   Work fast, throw strikes, change speeds.
 
 And, Chris, even though the Braves were held scoreless for all those
 innings, they kept plugging.   I remember sitting through the Phillies
 1980 NLCS with Houston.   The Phils went thru an 18 inning drought and I
 must have tossed in a dozen towels in defeat.   Yet they kept on plugging.
 
 Braves are in great shape.   They'll be flying high tonight and the Bucs
 are going to have to regroup a bit.   They gotta be mumbling to
 themselves.   This will easily be the most important and biggest baseball
 game in Atlanta Braves history.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
>>and is tagged out.    Makes up for it a few innings later with a perfect
>> throw to cut down a shocked Don Slaught.
 
    Another gripe on my part, Slaught was a dead duck at second.  I know
    it's a split second decision on his part, but the ball wasn't really
    the type that you get a doble out of.  The ball was hit hard, and not
    that far to the left of Smith, plus Slaught doesn't have blazing speed.
    
    Belliard had an almost identical hit, and Belliard has good speed,
    later in the game and when he saw Bonds come up with the ballo, he put
    the brakes on BIG TIME.  Slaught, IMHO, should have done the same.
    
    JaKe
    

 �   Another gripe on my part, Slaught was a dead duck at second.  I know
 �   it's a split second decision on his part, but the ball wasn't really
 �   the type that you get a doble out of.  The ball was hit hard, and not
 �   that far to the left of Smith, plus Slaught doesn't have blazing speed.
 
 But Lonnie Smith *did* have to go his left, plant and throw back across
 his body to 2nd base.  Smith's arm has never been that good plus he's
 notorious ("Skates") for losing his footing in the outfield and on the
 basepaths.
 
 Slaught probably went because the Bucs' scouting report said to go in that
 situation.   The scouting report was probably a good one.  Smith made a
 great throw and the scouting report is now toast ... 
 
 Bob Hunt

    	Does anyone remember this kind of banter (questioning baserunning
    decisions and managerial strategies) happening during the SLCS
    (Spamball League Championship Series)?  I mean other than Cito starting
    the SLCS with his third best pitcher (but hey after not making
    decisions all year long it's tough to start).
    
    				/Don

    
    
    	Great game, but these are not the Pirates I've grown up with who
    were always refered to as "the Lumber Co.".  These guys are more like
    the Slumber Co.!  I've never seen such a pathetic lack of offense
    as the Pirates have shown over these 6 games.  The big 3 B's have 
    pretty much stunk up the joint while the minor B's have picked up
    most of the slack.  I've also never seen so many hitters (Pirates)
    swinging at the first pitch.  Almost every batter does this and 
    ends up being in the hole after 2 pitches..  
    
    	No excuse for Van Slyke watching the last pitch.  Anything close
    and you gotta protect the plate!  Amazing that these guys that are
    making 4 mil a year can't seem to remember basic baseball fundamentals!
    
    	As for the run scoring double, Buchelle(sp) or the managers should
    be hung out to dry.  I played 16 years of organized baseball at 3rd
    base and given the same situation, I would of been standing on top of
    the line!  Give up the hole between short and third because you have
    a great arm in left and the runner might not score on a single in the
    hole.  But if the ball gets down the line, it's a sure double, and
    sure enough, Buchelle was to far off the line!  What's even more
    curious is that the announcers didn't even persue that line of thinking
    after they continually analyze every other play to death.
    
    	Given the situation in the 9th of a close ballgame, I would protect
    the corners to the strong side of the batter.  At least that is what
    I was always taught!  If Bushelle was on the line, Atlanta wouldn't
    of scored and the outcome might of been different.  Bushelle has been
    touted as having a great glove, but all I've seen him do in this 
    series is cost the Pirates two games with mental "errors".
    
    	At this point, I don't even care if the Pirates make it or not.
    This is not the same type of Pirate team I grew up with or identify
    with.  There is no team leader and no offensive power.  That's not
    taking anything away from the Atlanta pitchers because they have
    pitched awfully well, but I think the Pirates are making them all look
    invincible.
    
    	I'm surprised that on one has used the big "C" word yet...but there
    still is time!
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Hey, at least we know how the Pirates will be in NLCS after Bonds and
    Bonilla eventually leave.  Getting there might be another story, but
    you could have a 50-year old Matty Alou out there and it wouldn't make
    much difference, at least in the offensive categories.

  �  	No excuse for Van Slyke watching the last pitch.  Anything close
  �  and you gotta protect the plate!  Amazing that these guys that are
  �  making 4 mil a year can't seem to remember basic baseball fundamentals!
    
    Pena hung Van Slyke out to dry on that lasted pitch.   Completely
    fooled him.   That's the only explanation that makes sense especially
    since he was obviously in a mood to swing to protect the plate on the
    dozen or so two-strike foul balls that he had already hacked prior to
    that outstanding off-speeder.   
    
    Pena got him.  One memory of my high school days as a catcher came
    flooding back to me after that pitch.   We had a pitcher who threw some
    serious smoke and that's all he was doing in this one particular game. 
    Came down to their lasted out and their stud hitter was up.   He knew
    that he was going to see all fastballs and he kept fouling them off
    looking for the perfect one.
    
    After about 10 or so foul balls, I threw down the "3" sign and my
    pitcher didn't nod "Yes" nor did he shake "No".   He just smiled this
    great Cheshire cat smile and we fanned him on the s-l-o-w change.  
    Stee-rike thuh-ree.   Ballgame.   Loved it.
    
    Your Buechele argument is tough to refute, however.  Gotta guard that
    line in the late innings.  Redus had done so on Justice's grounder to
    first to lead off the inning ... Buechele should have done the same
    over on his side of the field.
    
    Bob Hunt

    re: Buechele
    
    I cain see both sides to this argument.  Normally you'd definitely be
    guarding the line in the late innings (though some managers no longer
    subscribe to this 'conventional wisdom') but in this case there's a
    runner in scoring position with terrific speed.  It's highly doubtful
    that Bonds is gonna throw out Gant on a single between short and third.
    
    On the other hand Greg Olsen absolutely makes a living pulling the ball
    down the 3rd baseline.  I've seen him do it countless times, and I'd of
    thought the scouting report would show this.  Still, I suspect Leyland
    was 'playing by the book' by NOT guarding the line, since a single is
    most likely gonna score the runner.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Avery pitched a great game, but I got a little tired of both announcers
    gushing over him.  Drabek was doing just as well and I didn't hear half
    the orgasmic compliments they were dribbling on young Steve.
    
    	--dan'l

I wouldn't BLAM Van Slyke at all for getting caught looking. Pena threw the
perfect pitch at the perfect time. You gotta give whomever called that pitch
some credit. Van Slyke was sitting on and hammering the fastballs (but foul).
There was no way he could recover enough to even try and pull the trigger on
that pitch.....it was a beauty....

Methinks you Buc's fans are a little sensitive after staying up too late last 
night..btw, I'm rooting for the Buc's also...

I just hope we get as good a game tonight as we got last night....


Metz

    re .455:
    
    > Avery pitched a great game, but I got a little tired of both announcers
    > gushing over him.  Drabek was doing just as well and I didn't hear half
    > the orgasmic compliments they were dribbling on young Steve.
    
    Even as one rooting for the Braves, I have to agree 100% Dan'l.
    
    If Atlanta takes Game 7 it's going to be a house divided at my
    place, as my wife who's originally from "Meffa" will surely be rooting 
    for Pags and the Twins.
    
    
    py
                           

                                                                 
    And they say that ACChris is only a bandwagon baseball fan.  Could have 
    fooled me with that absolutely correct analysis of Buechele's positioning 
    in the ninth.  There is no "book" on guarding the lines with a man on 
    second and *two outs*.  *Any* outfield hit will score Gant; I don't care
    who's out there.  So the decision rests with the batter and the pitch,
    which in this case was a fastball, not a curve.  In his previous
    at-bat, in a similar situation on the same pitch, Olson hit a ground ball 
    to *short* (the play where Bell nailed Gant at the plate).  I really
    can't come to the conclusion that Leyland or Buechele made the wrong
    decision, except of course with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.
    
    The same thing goes with Van Slyke's strikeout.  It's not like the guy
    just choked on the first two-strike pitch that he saw.  He fouled
    several good fastballs off, most of them hard hit, before Pena just
    absolutely fooled him.  You can't blame the batter there, not after
    that kind of a tough at-bat.  Sure, maybe he could have just waved at 
    the thing and been all the way around on his swing before the ball
    reached the plate, but then today we'd all be saying what a dummy he 
    was for swinging at an unhittable ball that might have been out of the
    strike zone.  You got to give credit where it's due.  That was a
    *great* pitch...
    
    I, too, was surprised that Drabek didn't throw over to first on Gant in
    the ninth.  McCarver kept speculating on the pitchout, but fearing that 
    it would cause Drabek to lose the batter, I didn't like that idea
    (which the Bucs promptly executed anyway, putting Drabek behind 2-0 and
    giving Gant a guaranteed pitch count to steal on).  All he needed to do 
    was to keep him a little honest.  I haven't seen that much of Drabek 
    this season.  Is he one of those guys that has a mortal fear of throwing 
    to the bases or something?
    
    One last thing.  While I won't question his positioning, has Steve
    Buechele *cleanly* fielded a hard-hit ball since he's come over to the
    artificial turf fields of the NL?  Okay, so he looks good with his 
    dives, but can he actually *catch* a ball on the funny stuff without
    backing up on it or otherwise letting the ball play him?  This guy was
    supposedly the top Gold Glove candidate in the AL when he was traded...
    
    glenn
     

    Over lunch, another flaw in Leyland's "strategic" workings occured to
    me.  It was the ninth inning, Gant was on second with two outs, after
    leading the inning off with a walk and swiping second.
    
    Now, Olsen is batting 7th, right.  For the series to that point, he's
    hitting somewhere around .350, with 3 RBI.  Raphael Belliard, who
    couldn't hit the ball over the fence from 2nd base, and who couldn't
    pull the ball it it was sitting on a batting T, is in deck.  Raphael
    was hitting an anemic .154(which BTW was higher that Barry Bonds'
    avg., and first base was open.
    
    Why the fluffin hay didn't they walk Olsen and set up an "any base"
    force with Belliard up next?????????????????
    
    SAheez, you sit long enuf and think about the game for long enuf, you
    cain find all of the flaws.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    > Why the fluffin hay didn't they walk Olsen and set up an "any base"
    > force with Belliard up next?????????????????
    
    Probably wouldn't have hurt any, but you wouldn't have seen Belliard. 
    You'd get a pinch-hitter, one (Hunter?) who by the percentages, at
    least, is a better hitter than Olson.  If the Braves' manager is
    content to leave his .240-hitting righthanded catcher out there against
    my righthanded pitcher, I can probably live with that.
    
    I'm not just trying to stick up for Jimmy Leyland at all costs here.  I 
    think he's made some strange decisions that have both worked and
    failed.  Letting Roger Mason hit the other day was pretty bizarre, but
    it worked (barely).  I also thought he should have had Espy in there as
    a pinch-runner when Varsho singled to lead off the inning, had Merced
    looking at a few pitches from the occasionally wild Pena and then had
    Espy stealing.  The way the Bucs were going, that first out in the ninth
    was too valuable to give away without at least a fight from Merced, who 
    has a very good eye, not with speed on the bench, at least...
    
    glenn
      

    
     Obviously a sign of a deeply flawed team...!!!...
    
    		GO BRAVES !!
    
    			Big Game

    Although I PRAY that the Bucs win this thing tonite, even if they lose,
    I feel that, at least for me, this has been one of the most exciting
    LCS's, whether NL or AL, that I've seen in many years.  3 1-0 games and
    a 3-2 game, with a 10-3 shellaquing and a 5-1 Bucco pounding thrown in
    for good measure.
    
    Although I don't expect a high scoring event tonite, it would be nice
    to not have another nail biter and have the Bucs bat around inn the 1st
    inning(wishful thinking).
    
    Wasn't it just a year ago when the Braves fans were saying "Go Braves,
    and take the Falcons with you"????
    
    
    GGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
    BBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

  I grew up in Pittsburgh and remember Mazeroski's homer to win the 60
  series. I never enjoyed watching a player more than Clemente and he
  certainly lived up to his reputation in the 71 series. In 79, the team
  was tight and adopted the song "We are Family". In all of those years
  they seemed to have something special going for them. Now in 91, the
  Bucs probably have the best talent for one team in all of baseball. But
  at the same time, you have a couple of so-called stars talking about 
  leaving the team at the end of the year and for the most part, the talented 
  stars are not producing. This is in sharp contrast to the leadership of
  people like Clemente and Pops Stargell and the "We are Family" attitude
  of the past. I hope the Bucs pull this one out but something in the back
  of my mind doesn't have the confidence that I had in 60,71 and 79.

  With that said, I think Doug Drabek, Jay Bell(offense and defence) and 
  Zane Smith are rising to the occasion and having a terrific NLCS.

  Go Bucs !! If they win tonight, I just wish the gunner was around to hear him
  say "We had em all the way".

					Keith

	I have to agree with Glenn and Chris that Buechele was positioned
	properly on the Olson double.  As Glenn mentioned, Olson had hit
	that same pitch to the shortstop's left just 2 innings earlier, and
	was much more likely to hit it through the hole than down the line.

	On Drabek's "decision" to not throw to first, what I have heard
	since is that this was the type of move that the hamstring problem
	was preventing him from making smoothly, and comfortably.  Perhaps
	he feared aggravating the problem.

    If the Aspirates lose tonite (and I hope they don't, cuz we 'Sotans
    up here are licking our chops hungering for Pittsburgh Title-meat
    to sink our teeth into) then they too will be rightfully branded
    chokemasters just like the Blue Jays.
    
    If this comes to pass, then why not a ChokeBowl between Pitssburugh
    and Toronto?  Be kinda like those consolation games they used to have
    at the Final Four.
    
    Reason?  So one a them could finally learn how to win a Final, albeit
    a penultimate one...
    
    MrT(wins!)

    "T(winkiesonthebrain)", 
    
    go wait in the truck!!!
    
    I don't see where the "C" word can be used for either team in the NLCS,
    regardless of who wins.  
    
    Throw out the 5-1 and 10-3 games and both teams have scored only 4
    runs each in the other 4 games.  Pitching has prevailed in the series,
    not lay down and die type baseball like the Blown-Jays played.
    
    JaKe

   >  If the Aspirates lose tonite (and I hope they don't, cuz we 'Sotans
   >  up here are licking our chops hungering for Pittsburgh Title-meat
   >  to sink our teeth into
    
    Ha!  From today's USelessA (tm) Today:
    
    "On the way out of Minnesota last week, the taxi driver was musing
    about the prospects of his Twins being in the World Series, and who
    they might face.
       
    Even though there were only two possibilities, he spoke of his
    choice with great conviction.
    
    'Anybody but Pittsburgh,' he said.  'Nobody in Minnesota wants to
    see Pittsburgh again.'"
    
    (Seems that not *all* Minnesotans share the optimism of this one 
    transplanted hypocrite.)
     
    > If this comes to pass, then why not a ChokeBowl between Pitssburugh
    > and Toronto?  Be kinda like those consolation games they used to have
    > at the Final Four.
    
    > Reason?  So one a them could finally learn how to win a Final, albeit
    > a penultimate one...
    
    You better hope this transpires for the Twins' sake, what with the 
    Pirates' outstanding record for coming through in the clutch in the 
    "Finals" of 1960, 1971, and 1979 (underdog teams all, no less...).
    
    MrT, how do you reconcile your current fanaticism for the Twins with
    all of the crap you've been dumping on the woeful "Twinkies" of the 
    past few years?  Who's next in line, the Golden Goofs? 
    
    glenn
            

    	MorT, the National League Champion is going the wipe the floor
    of the HubertHoratioHornblowerDome with the Spamball chumps.  To
    bad you wasn't a bettin' main.
    
    				/Don

    Wow, love them Braves!!!  They are my current favorite team, tied for
    first with them Twins!
    
    Go Braves.  Go Twins.  
    
    
    :*)
    
    Lee

    Well, it's over.  What can you say?  Am I disappointed?  Yes, but not
    as much as I thought I would be and I think that has something to do
    with spending the past week engrossed in perhaps the greatest LCS in a
    long long time.  What great baseball.  After this, the WS is bound to
    be anticlimactic.  And I'm happy for the people of Atlanta.

    Bonilla is through as a Pirate.  It is my opinion that the Pirates
    should wait to see who Bonilla goes to and send Bonds to the same team
    in a trade for players who have conviction.  It would be ashame to
    split the choke brothers up.  What was that Bonds said at the beginning
    of the summer when the front office wouldn't increase the offer to
    Bonnilla: "If they want a championship in Pittsburgh, they're going to
    have to pay for it."
    
    The Pirates could be back in the playoffs next year if they still had
    Wes Chamberlin to take Bonilla's place.  Thanks, Larry Doughty.

    Frankly, I'd like to see a VanSlyke-led team finish 4th in the division
    next season than to put up with Bonds for one more year.  He doesn't
    deserve the good people of Pittsburgh and I bet there are many waking
    up there this morning saying just that.  

    With all the free agents, you won't even recognize the men in Pirate
    uniforms next year unless you've recently seen the Buffalo Bisons play.

    	--dan'l

    Well I dont watch much baseball, I watched 2 games, game 5 when the
    Braves missed the 3rd base bag (more or less giving Pitt the win) and
    them last nights game, I watch to the bitter end.  How about that
    rookie hunter.......Loved his double pumping fists on that RBI double.
    
    Go Braves and Take the Falcons with you...Maybe them meant Go to the
    World Series Braves and take the Falcons to the SuperBowl with you :-)
    
    

    Van Slyke bit the bullet and admitted the Pirates have plenty to answer
    for over the winter. He in effect admitted that the Pirates as a team
    simplty have underachieved the past two years. And dan'l, you're
    correct. Bonilla and Bonds just might not git all the money from other
    clubs that they are lookin' fer.
    Got to gave the Braves' pitching credit. Two shutouts in Pittsburgh.
    Wish we had Avery and Smoltz.
    
    Did I see/hear correctly? Were there quite a few no shows at Trois
    Rivieres?  Quite a loud Brave contingent in the upper deck in right
    field.
    
    MikeL
    

    They weren't no shows.  The game wasn't sold out.  A chance to see your
    home team take the pennant and there's not a sell out?  Unbelievable.
    
    Course, maybe these few thousand were just fed up with paying Bonds'
    sallary and having him grasp throat, open mouth, and insert finger.
    
    Talked to my dad over the weekend and he said that the city of
    Pittsburgh is taking some big heat for the way it treated the fans. 
    This mainly stems from parking fiascos.  TRS used to have adequate (at
    best) parking.  This season, they took away about 5,000 spaces to build
    a science center on the river.  
    
    Well, during the first two game sellouts, there was a great lack of
    spaces and people began parking anywhere and everywhere.  Instead of
    just letting a tense situation be, during the first two games, the city
    of Pittsburgh towed over 200 cars.
    
    Way to go, mayor Sophie.  Everyone pisses and moans about the low
    attendance and then when you get a great crowd you treat them like
    crap.  Doubt if I'd have gone to last night's game either fearing my
    car would end up in the city impound.
    
    	--dan'l

    So now it's the Mayor's fault?  
    
    I suspected all along that the alleged snafu surrounding last 
    year's empty seats was a Trick Dick Nixon-style cover story, and
    now I know it.
    
    As a Americain I am ashamed for our National Pasttime.  As a baseball
    fan I am angry.  There was talk a few years ago about getting baseball
    out of Pittsburgh, and I wonder whether Fay Vincent, staring in shock
    at all those empty seats at a NLCS game seven, rues the decision to
    save the Pittsburgh Pirates.  
    
    It's time to face up to the fack that Pittsburgh is not a quality 
    baseball town and to get the franchise moved to a more deserving city,
    such as Indianapolis or Charlotte or Salt Lake or Portland or wherever -
    anywhere but Pittsburgh.
    
    MrT

    I know I've spoken out against high ticket prices and management
    ineptitude in the past in order to support fans staying away away from
    the ballpark, but to fail to sellout the 7th game of the playoffs (when
    other games *HAD* sold out) is pathetic.
    
    It's almost as if the fans gave up on the Pirates after the 6th game
    ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >><<< Note 3.475 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Clarence Thomas for President" >>>
    >>           -< disappointing, damaging, sickening, revulsive >-
    
    And that's just when you look in the mirror each morning!!!  (8^/\*
    
    Re  Pgh not a good baseball town.  Propel it through your southern end,
    "T".  2mil + attendance.
    
    Although, when CBS first came on lasted night, I couldn't believe the
    empty seats.  Here I am in Colorado for the4 lasted 4 weeks, not a
    chance of going to see ANY of the playoff games, and there's a bunch of
    empty seats at 3 Rivers.
    
    Got tired of Jack Buck and Tim McCarver lasted night.  Every time
    Bonilla's face popoped up on the tube, Buck tries to get melodramatic
    and spews,"Could this be Bonilla's last game as a Pirate?".  Musta
    heard it 10 times lasted night.  
    
    Also got tired of seeing hunter's HR from every angle except thru
    Smiley's a$$hole, where CBS would've had a camera if they could've put
    it there.
    
    Re somewhere back in thiis note, Zane Smith is truly the starting
    pitcher for the all-ugly team, and Brian Hunter, IMHO, wins the
    starting job at first.
    
    Lessee, Braves .vs.  Twinkies in the WORLD SERIES.  Hah, I couldn't
    give 2 SLOF's who wins this thing, although I would rather that the
    Braves do, cause they're the only good team in the Series.
    
    Doubt seriously if I'll get to see a game of the series, or really want
    to see one.
    
    The Bucs "big 3" set the tone early lasted night, when both Orlando
    Merced and Jay Bell got on in the bottom of the first.  Andy Van Slyke
    had the best shot of the nexted three, and was out on a ball that
    looked gone off of the bat.  Bonilla and Bonds feebly ended the first
    inning.
    
    Those three, Slyke, Bonilla and Bonds batted .333 in the NLCS with
    nobody on base, but when it counted, and there were runs to be driven
    in, they batted a horrendous .077.
        
    Ah well, now to watching the Steelers fumble up and down the field, and
    watching the Penguins repeat as Stanley Cup champs.
    
    dissapointedly
    
    JaKe
    
    

 �   Did I see/hear correctly? Were there quite a few no shows at Trois
 �   Rivieres?  Quite a loud Brave contingent in the upper deck in right
 �   field.
 
 I got some inside info on this.   Spoke to my sister who works for Delta
 and lives in Atlanta.    Late yesterday morning, Delta announced that they
 would fly three chartered jets to Pittsburgh for Braves fans who wanted to
 see Game 7.    This was in addition to Delta's regular daily flights to
 Pittsburgh which, presumably, were already full.
 
 The three extra charters filled up so fast that Delta added a fourth
 charter in mid-afternoon and that one filled up, too.   So, at least four
 full planeloads of Braves fans were in Three Rivers lasted night.   They
 all walked up and bought tickets at the door and then did their Chop thing
 all night long.
 
 They were all back in Atlanta around 2:00am this morning.
 
 Congratulations to the Braves.   Superb pitching.   Feel bad for Bucs'
 fans but the Series matchup is really sweet with both "worst-to-first"
 teams in there.
 
 1992 World Series - Cleveland vs Montreal.    You heard it here first.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I can't help but wonder what affect the empty seats at Three River may
    have had on the Pirate players lasted night.
    
    Biggest game, in way of importance, of the year.  Win you go to the big
    show, lose, and the best Pirate team in the lasted 11 years is but a
    memory, forever.  And the fans fail to show.  
    
    The Pirates left port lasted night but forgot to put the sails on the
    boat.  I can't help but think of the unused potential this team brought
    to the NLCS. They had Gold loves in left field and center field.  They
    wore the label as the best defensive outfield in the NL, if not the
    whole game.  Their outfielders combined for 300 RBI this year, but
    couldn't put any that meant much across in the NLCS.
    
    Some will say the Pirates choked, others will say they just met up with
    terrific pitching.  Personally, I say it was a combination of the two.
    
    Barry Bonds ends the season second in the NL in RBI, but can't put a
    SINGLE rbi to his credit in the NLCS.  In the first, with two outs and
    runners on first and third, he fails.  Later, with nobody on, he slams
    a ball into the left field corner for a double.  Oh, but for that hit
    coming in the 1st inning.  
    
    The whole complection of the game was set when the Bucs left those two
    leadoff hits go to waste in the first.  The never threatened
    afterwards.
    
    John Smoltz pitched a good game.  He had a crutch there, his
    "PERSONAL" psychologist.   How Thweet!!
    
    Can't help but wonder if Barry Bonds has his personal Proctologist
    attend every NLCS game, he hits like such an a$$hole.
    
    I feel disappointed this AM, but also angry that the team that was the
    best in the Majors this year during the regualr season, can only score
    12 runs in 7 games, and had so many hitters going for the fences
    instead of just trying to hit the freakin ball.
    
    I'd say, "Wait til nexted year", BUT, this was the lasted chance for
    this "team".  This winter, the team will be decimated by free agency,
    and, as --dan'l wrote earlier, they MAY finish fourth nexted year.
    
    Larry Doughty, Bucs GM, let a couple of prime prospects get away, some
    to satisfy the present, and others thru assinine mistakes.  
    
    The Pirates don't have the revenue to pay the BIG bucks.  The market
    they are in is too small.  There are no multi-million dollar TV deals
    like the NY and LA teams worked out.   Fielding a mediocre team will
    only hasten teh removal of baseball from Pittsburgh.  Ah well, at
    least maybe they'll end up with a minor league team a few years after
    the BUcs leave.  Not saying that the BUCS wil leave for sure, but
    without remaining a contender, and exciting team, and without some sort
    of revenue sharing thruout the league, the BUCS will not be able to
    survive financially over the nexted few years, and will sell to new
    owners, and move to a larger market.
    
    There was talk on ESPN that Bonilla could be baseball's first "SIX
    MILLION DOLLAR MAN".  Salaries for playing a FREAKIN GAME are getting
    tottally out of hand, IMHO.  No wonder it costs so freakin much for a
    family to go to a game.  Food and beverages, plus souvenirs are priced
    sky high, 'cause the team takes a cut out of each, and must pay the
    huge salaries if they wish to remain competitive.
                                                               
    Not to say it's the players' fault either, it's a combination of both
    the management and the players.  Greed, Greed, Greed.
    
    I ask, is anybody really worth 4 million, 5 million, or more PER year
    fro playing a GAME, just a freaking GAME.  But I guess that's
    entertainment.
    
    Enuf for now
    
    JaKe
    

  Jake, I feel exactly like you do. I remember when you could get a seat
  in the left field bleachers at Forbes field for 50 cents and watch player's
  like Mazeroski, Clemente, Smokey Burgess etc. and you would never hear
  a complaint about their salaries.

  I would be a real shame if the Pirates left Pittsburgh. They've been there
  for what, 80 years or so, and have one of the best baseball histories in the
  game. 

				Keith

    And coffee used to be 5� a cup, and a movie ticket was $1, and, and and
    
    When you look at the money CBS paid to MLB to televise a handful of
    games, you can I understand why the players are demanding more money.

    Mac -
    
    I understand your arguement - but I do feel that salaries are way out
    of hand.  There's as much talk about salaries and free agency and
    collusion and agents and demands are there is about fungo's and hitting
    and pitching and fielding.
    
    I wish baseball would have a salary cap or something.  
    
    And what happens if CBS, which LOST a ton of money on the contract,
    doesn't sign back up for the big bucks?  Do the players lower demands?
    Not in my lifetime.  
    
    But, there will be no end.  I won't be long til the 10 million dollar
    contract (yearly...
    
    JD

    IMHO, salaries on the Major leagues should be on a scale.
    
    Set up a base pay of say, $250k for a first year player.
    2nd year player $350k, 3rd year 450K, ans so on.
    
    Then add the incentives.  Hit 5 homers, get an extra $50k.
    10 homers, $100K, etc.  
    Less than 5 errors, extra bucks, make the defensive scale go on
    chances/errors made percentage.
    
    Hit over .250, extra bucks scaled up all the way to winning the batting
    title.
    
    Money for RBI's, money for pitchers wins, saves, etc.
    
    Then, when a palyer has a good year, he gets paid for having a good
    year, when he has a bad year, he doesn't still get paid for failures.
    
    Now, I can see all of the arguments from younzes, Windfall profits for
    the owners, blah blah blah.
    
    The owners would be permnitted a certain profit margin, with the rest
    of the money going to either pension fund or a new "get a real life, do
    something worthwhile with your life" re-education plan which would help
    the players who can't count as high as their salaries, or tie their own
    shoes, learn a "valuable" skill, like basketweaving, to keep them from
    starving for the rest of their lives.
    
    I guess I'm sounding bitter, well I guess I am bitter.
    
    I'm just tired of the way sports has gravitated from what was once
    "fun" to nothing but chasing the almighty dollar.  I'm bitter about the
    fact that if I want to go to a game, and take my family, I gotta shell
    out a major portion of a days wages for tickets, parking, food,
    souvenirs for the younguns, etc.  And who do I get to watch????
    A bunch of players, who were gifted with some athletic ability, and a
    few breaks in life, who are making mor in a week than I can ever hope
    to make in 2 or 3 years, PLAYING A GAME!!!!
    
    And what'll they do this winter, charge money for their autographs,
    like they really need the dough.  The owners will raise ticket prices
    again, bleed the f#$%ing public, cause they have to pay the exhorbitant
    salaries, etc.
    
    CBS shells out over a billion dollars for baseball, and they're losing
    their shirts on the deal.  The NLCS and ALCS ratings were sewage.  And
    you know what, I feell sort of glad that the ratings are shit.  There's
    a helluva lot more things I can spend my money on that are more
    worthwhile than watching sports at the ballpark.  There are people
    starving in this country because they're out of work and can't find a
    job, but the professional athlete thinks he's so important, he's worht
    millions of dollars per year.
    
    Don't get me wrong, if I were in the league, I'd go after all the
    money I could get to make myself financially independent for life, but 
    I just get tired of hearing how much these bozos are making for playing
    a game when there are som many other problems in the world that are
    worthwhile.
                             
    When pro sports eventually goes exclusively pay per view, then my
    watching of sports will be finished.
    
    I have in the past, had season tickets to the Pitt Panthers football
    games, and will be buying them again nexted year, at least there, I'm
    not seeing athletes whose minds are cluttered thinking about the
    salaries they're receiving, YET!!
    
    Peaved
    
    JaKe
    

    Hail, I can remember when ballplayers had off-season jobs!  Selling
    cars, beer, etc.
    
    Know what?  There was an incentive back then for players to win the
    pennant and WS.  It was called MONEY!  LOTS of MONEY, compared to what
    their salaries were.  Which were still pretty good compared to the
    working man.
    
    Nowadays, it's basically loose change for many players.
    
    What really bugs me is that I have no say in this unbelievable
    escalation of salaries in sports.  It doesn't matter if I watch or
    listen to the game, or attend.  The dough is offered by TV and radio
    stations.  They, in turn, charge their sponsors, who are only to happy
    to have a spot during a game.  They, in turn, whack us, the poor
    consumer who may or may not know what the hell the tomahawk chop is.
    
    That's what bugs me, Bunky.  Now, it's been described as entertainment. 
    But, I can elect to either go to a concert or movie if I wish.  Or, to
    buy a CD or tape.  I have some control of where my dough goes to.  
    
    But, unless I do watch in order to determine which products to boycott,
    how will I know which ones they are?
    
    I've been had, and it ain't gonna stop.
    
    Lee

    Luvs it Bob,
    My new amour,the Cleveland Indians vs PeeWee's Expos in the Series.
    I cain see it now.
    80,000 screamin' Cleveland maroons on a cold October night in the
    Mistake by the Lake. But only 2000 of 'em are Chop, Choppin' away
    and chantin'. Da rest are all dressed in brown,wif' dog masks on
    throwin' bones at dem Expos and woofin'. They think the Brownies
    are playin'! Great baseball town that Cleveland is.
    
    Mikel
    

    Was it all that long ago that the late Lyman Bostock offered to take a
    cut in his next season's salary, following what he felt was an off-year?
    
    re Lee:
    
    > Know what?  There was an incentive back then for players to win the
    > pennant and WS.  It was called MONEY!  LOTS of MONEY, compared to what
    > their salaries were.  Which were still pretty good compared to the
    > working man.
    
    For a Steve Avery or a Brian Hunter who's making the major league
    minimum, the World Series purse *is* going to almost equal their
    salaries.  Perhaps that was the difference... 
    
    
    py

    I only made it to a couple of Pirate games this year, but that was
    mostly because I work evenings now and can't justify taking a day off
    to go see baseball, much.
    
    I will, hosever, take a day off once in a while to take my family to a
    game, BUT, only on a Wednesday night when the Bucs have what is called
    "Family Buck Night".  I get parking for a buck, gen. admission for a
    buck, a hot dog for a buck and a coke for a buck.  That's $13(souvenirs
    not included) for me and the wife, and our 2 older children(8 and 5 yrs
    old) to see the game.  The kids mainly want to watch teh Pirate Parrot,
    but my daughter, 8, likes to watch the game, too.
    
    Now $13 ain't too bad, but if I wanted box seats, the price jumps to
    $57.  Take away the Buc night promotion and we're talking $85 or more.
    Hell, I cain take the kids to a movie and "Chuck E. Cheese's" 3 or 4
    times for that kind of money.
    
    So for me and my fmaily, it's "Buck Night" or not at all.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Getting back to the subject at hand...
    
    	Congrats to the Braves..they deserved it.  They took 3-4 in the
    Pirates home park which is quite amazing.
    
    	As for the Pirates, if no one else will say it, I will...CHOKE
    They had the best record in baseball, had 2, count em 2 MVP candidates,
    an ex-Cy Young'er, a legit Cy Young candidate and they end up being
    shut out 3 times in 7 games.  Pathetic..
    
    	For the money, anyone can have Bonds or Bonilla.  Bonilla and Bonds
    have tried to hold the Pirates hostage for a couple of years now by
    holding this "or else" mentality over the organization.  As far as I
    am concerned, they aren't worth the hassle.  Over the last 2 years 
    when the money was on the line, neither produced much more than a
    pile of sunflower shells.
    
    	As I said yesterday, this is not the Pirates I once knew, loved,
    and emulated.  This team has no clubhouse leader like a Stargell or
    Clemente.  This team had/has no identity.
    
    	As for the non-sellout last night, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette
    said it all on Thursday when they said that Atlanta had (already)
    won the best of 7 series.  One thing Pittsburgh fans aren't and that
    is dumb.  This series was over after game 6.  Actually, I'm glad 
    a lot of the folks didn't waste 40 bucks to see this sorry bunch.  
    
    	True, the city isn't a great baseball town, but then again, they
    aren't a bad baseball town either.  Pittsburgh people will rally behind
    anyone they feel is giving their all.  I simply don't think the
    people of the city feel that close to this current group of players
    especially Bonds and Bonilla.  The folks of Pittsburgh have many fond
    memories of the older players that extended themselves in the field
    and around the city.  Few if any of the older crew, ever moaned
    and groaned about pay and threatened to leave.  These things simply
    don't sit well with the people of Pittsburgh.  Most have worked pretty
    damn hard to make ends meet and they expect nothing less from the
    pro athletes that represent the city.  If they feel they are being
    taken, they will let you know, and that's pretty much what they did
    last night IMO.
    
    
    							bill..g.

    bill..g.
    
    I went to my first Pirate game at the ripe old age of 5, in 1960, at
    Forbes field.  Smokey Burgeww won teh game for the BUcs with a 9th
    inning home run.  I watched it from the left field bleachers.
    
    I lived 6 miles from Forbes Field, and spent many a summer evening or
    weekend afternoon at Forbes field.  Watched Stargell when he was a left
    fielder, Bill Virdon in Center, Clemente, the true "Great One", in
    right.  "Maz" at second, and a host of others.  I agree with you, these
    teams had an identity, character, they were proud to play for the
    Pirates, and showed true loyalty.
    
    As you've stated, the current Pirate teamhas no identity.  The Outfield
    "B"'s(Bonds and Bonilla) both will jump to whoever pays them 5� more a
    year.  Bonilla thinks hit SLOF don't stink, when in reality, he's 
    nothing more thatn a decent ballplayer, definitely no "SUPERSTAR" like
    he'll obviously get paid for.  Bonds has all of the tools to become
    baseball's next "SUPERSTAR", strong bat, CAN hit for average, hit for
    power, he's FAST on the bases, and has a top quality glove in lefted
    field, plus a strong arm.  He's got one more year in Pgh, if he doesn't
    get traded first, and where is his mind set??  He says if Bonilla goes,
    he'll be gone nexted year.  Good, go a$$hole.  So much for team spirit
    and dedication.   It's this kind of mindset adn arrogance which will be
    the downfall of professional(major league) baseball, if not most or all
    pro sports.
    
    Ya heerd it here firsted
    
    JaKe
    

    People complained when Babe Ruth was getting paid big bucks (remember
    his line about having a better year than the president?).  Nothing's
    changed.
    
    Although baseball is probably the most individual of the team sports, I
    think it would be pretty tough to set up a salary scale based on what
    Jake suggests.  A pitcher might have a 1.57 ERA but be 12-8 because he
    has a poor defense and an anemic offense behind him.  A player could be
    batting over 300 but have a handful of RBI's because the guys in front
    of him aren't doing their jobs.  It also puts a lot of pressure on the
    manager when it comes to things like pulling a pitcher going for his
    xth shutout or benching a player in a slump who's going for his yth
    RBI.

1960 must've been a GREAT year to be a Pirate fan.

I'll be that 7th game of the Series was a doozy!

What was it, something like 9-9 in the bottom of the 9th, when Maz
hit what had to be one of the greatest all time homers that game has
ever seen.


What kid hasn't fantasicize this, when playing sandlot ball:

	World Series, 7th game, bottom of the 9th.
	Men on first and second with 2 outs.
	The count is 1-2, the visitors lead by one....

My brother and I would do that endless hours in the neighborhood.

If you were in the field, you made that great leaping catch at the
wall to save the game.....


"Memories, light the corners of my mind"

'Saw

>    Although baseball is probably the most individual of the team sports, I
>    think it would be pretty tough to set up a salary scale based on what
>    Jake suggests.  A pitcher might have a 1.57 ERA but be 12-8 because he
>    has a poor defense and an anemic offense behind him.  A player could be
>    batting over 300 but have a handful of RBI's because the guys in front
>    of him aren't doing their jobs.  It also puts a lot of pressure on the
>    manager when it comes to things like pulling a pitcher going for his
>    xth shutout or benching a player in a slump who's going for his yth
>    RBI.


They ought to do it like they do here at DEC.


Make you write up a bunch of bullshit on how you felt you did in the
last year, write up there own bunch of bullshit, which is obviously
better bullshit than yours because they're getting paid more than
you.

Then they tell you that your bullshit is bullshit, while theirs is
right.

Then they make you have a woodie will they give you a little raise.
You sit there and smile like they're so benevolent, then you leave
the room saying "Cheap ass bastard".

Everybody else goes through the same thing, but you can't tell anyone
else what you make.


hell, if baseball did that, it'd probably still cost .50 to go to a game....

    Looking at Bonds (and to some extent Bonilla), the Mets' fan in me knew
    what the Buc fan was going through.  I saw "Darryl" written all over
    their play.  Ship them to L.A., where they love that type.  Great
    talent, no doubt.  No heart, however.
    
    Yep, I saw a little Strawberry in Barry Bonds...
    
    JD

    >I only made it to a couple of Pirate games this year...
    
    Typical Pirates "fan."  This is why the franchise must be moved to a
    baseball town - for the good a the game, for its honor.  Last night
    was a mortifying embarrassment.  Not only the thousands a empty seats
    for the NLCS' game 7, but the fack that the stadium was half empty as
    the Pirates batted in the 9th.
    
    Hey, git a clue you low quality Pittsburgh baseball "fans": This ain't
    football, they have no clock in baseball!
    
    MrT

    Although this didn't receive any publicity on CBS (surprise!) there
    were mucho problems in the stands last night at 3 Rivers.  Seems all the
    Braves fans that poured in were not too appreciated by the Pittsburgh
    attendees.  With defeat staring them in the face and the Atlanta fans
    seemingly rubbing it in their faces with the tomahawks and war chant,
    they headed up into the stands to try_an shut 'em up.
    
    IMO the wound that hurt these overly emotional (not to mention
    intoxicated) Pirate fans wasn't the pro-Atlanta cheering, but the fack 
    that so many were able to git tickets and attend the game in the
    first place!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    >>                         <<< Note 3.495 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight" >>>

    >>>I only made it to a couple of Pirate games this year...
    
   >> Typical Pirates "fan."  This is why the franchise must be moved to a
   >> baseball town - for the good a the game, for its honor.  Last night
    
    
    Get the whole freaking context from the original note,
    Twinkiesupthedirtshute.
    
    Precisely how many verifiable Twinkies game did you attned this year,
    that YOU PAID for???????
    
    20, 30, 40?????
    
    I agree that lasted night's attendance was an abomination, but I
    haven't done my investigation yet as to the why's and how's.
    
    Full report in a month or twenty.
    
    JaKe
    

    This summer I watched a lot of baseball and without question game 6
    was about the finest performance I've seen this season. Atlanta 
    has had opportunity after opportunity to fall to the wayside late
    but they haven't.  We waited for their collapse after the Nixon
    bust and they didn't. We waited for them to fold in the heat racing
    with the Dodgers and they didn't do that either. Then faced with
    winning 2 of 2 in Pittsburgh and fight their way out of a terrible
    hitting and scoring slump, many had them written off. The Braves
    then preceeded to shut them out in 2 straight. I don't believe
    there's enough water in all the lakes of Minnesota to cool these
    boys down. That bunch is hot right now.  
    
    BoB

    As a lifelong Pirate Fan, I say...
    
    Bye Bye Bobby
    Bye Bye Barry
    
    Who is in Buffalo?
    
    I can't put up with Bonilla's greediness or Bond's attitude.  Not if
    they can't back up their demands with action.  Enough is enough.  Bonds
    may be Dave Parker all over again.  Bonilla just ain't that great. 
    Bobby Bo... no defense, slightly above average hitter.
    
    Rick

    
    >>they can't back up their demands with action.  Enough is enough.  Bonds
    >>may be Dave Parker all over again.  Bonilla just ain't that great. 
    
    I disagree, Parker contributed to the 1979 World Champ team during the
    playoffs and in the WS, Bonds hasn't contributed as much as a wooden
    nickle.  
    
    On the other hand, Bonds hasn't tried to snort up the foul lines,m
    either, YET!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Compare these two quotes on free agency and tell me who has heart:
    
    "If they want a championship in Pittsburgh, they're going to have to
    pay for it." 
    
    	Barry Bonds
    
    "If you transplant a tree, you might damage the roots."
    
    	Willie Stargell
    

dan'l  --


You couldn't have picked a better illustration of the demise of 
baseball in the last twenty years.....

 File this one under "some things never change" ...
 
 Read in yesterday's paper that the Reds refused to pay Jose Rijo a
 performance incentive bonus of $62,500.    Rijo's contract stated that he
 would receive the extra dough if he pitched 205 innings or more.
 
 Rijo finished the year with 204 and 1/3 innings pitched.    He missed
 quite a few starts with a mid-season ankle injury, too.    But Schott
 stiffed him anyway.
 
 According to the Black Sox legend, Charlie Comiskey stiffed Eddie Cicotte
 out of a $10,000 bonus because he won *only* 29 games instead of 30.  
 Cicotte went on, of course, to lose 2 games to the Reds in the tainted
 1919 Series.
 
 Yes, you can make the argument that neither player reached their
 agreed-upon goal and shouldn't have been paid no matter how close they
 came to it for whatever reason.
 
 But, is it any wonder that ballplayers look to leave town on the firsted
 train out ???
 
 Bob Hunt

While it's JMHO, smart management would say:


	Okay Jose, you missed it by 2/3 of an inning.  Well give you
	the bonus, but we'll take off a commensurate amount.

Player is happy, you've given him what he's earned, and next season he
feels like he can trust you, and he goes out and gives it his all...

But again, JMHO,
'Saw

                                                               
 >   Not to say it's the players' fault either, it's a combination of both
 >   the management and the players.  Greed, Greed, Greed.
    

	It's not the fault of management or the players its societies fault.  
We, through tickets, souvenirs, cable, and  buying sponsors products
pay these salaries.  We give the money to the entertainment industry.  

Mike

�You couldn't have picked a better illustration of the demise of 
�baseball in the last twenty years.....
    
    I'd say the death of baseball has been greatly exaggerated.  People are
    going to the ballparks in record numbers.  Two new teams will be added
    to the NL.  Baseball paraphenalia is a better investment than a blue
    chip stock (and you wonder why athletes are charging for autographs?). 
    There is more TV coverage of baseball than ever before (even with CBS
    abysmal regular season coverage).

Okay, I'll put it in terms you can understand then:


	Willie Stargell -- Rugby Union

	Bobby Bonds	-- Rugby League


Catch my drift?

Sure, I knew ya would,
'Saw

    >but I haven't done my invesitigation yet as to the why's [sic] and 
    >how's [sic].
    
    Shouldn't this read "but I haven't cooked up my shameless spin-control
    job yet," wouldn't that be more, er, intellectually honest?!
    
    Why investigate at all, RaKe?  Why not just belly up to reality and 
    admit that these thousands a seats were empty cuz Pittsburghians just
    didn't care, that the town just isn't a baseball town worth a damn.
    
    re: Rick
    
    I agree.  The Braves' three starters look like maybe the best group
    going into a Series since the days of Koufax and Drysdale. 
    
    The Twins, on paper mind you, look stronger on offense, somewhat 
    stronger on defense (the Twins are a excellent D team with no holes,
    the Braves have some fine defenders [Pendleton] but a hole or two)...
    
    I think the Twins have better relievers BUT the Braves the stronger
    starters, much stronger.  And, in a 7 game Title series 3 guys cain
    wreak a lotta damage.  Just think back to what Orel Hershisher and Co.
    did to the A's!
    
    People in Minnesota think the Series will go the full 7 with the Twins
    prevailing cuz a the homefield advantage...
    
    MrT(wins win!)

    
    Mac;
    you're right but I'd lay money that it won't last long cause the
    general pubic will sooner or later, and I'd say sooner, get fed up with
    it and turn their back on baseball.  Not everybocy, but a major amount
    of the heretofore "faithful".
    
    JaKe
    

    	Hey MorT, talk about spin control!  Here you are talkin' up
    the Braves staff like it's Hall O' Fame material and poormouthin'
    your Spamball Chumps to CYA just in case the Braves win.  Just a
    few days ago you wuz puffin' out that hairy chest of yours about
    the Twinks.  HAHAHAHAHA�
    
    				/Don
    
    	P.S. Go Braves!  Win it for baseball!

 �   you're right but I'd lay money that it won't last long cause the
 �   general pubic will sooner or later, and I'd say sooner, get fed up with
 �   it and turn their back on baseball.  Not everybocy, but a major amount
 �   of the heretofore "faithful".
 
 Sorry, JaKe, but you'd lose your money.   Fans have been complaining about
 baseball for over a century and half now.    They thought the players were
 overpaid worthless bums back when they made pennies comparaed to today's
 numbers.
 
 Yet attendance and popularity have climbed nearly every year.   If the
 1981 mid-season strike and the subsequently smaller labor disputes didn't
 kill it, then it's immortal.   Probably always was.
 
 There are more and more "faithful" every year.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    >>Why investigate at all, RaKe?  Why not just belly up to reality and 
    >>admit that these thousands a seats were empty cuz Pittsburghians just
    >>didn't care, that the town just isn't a baseball town worth a damn.
    
    T, I must admit that the first part of your statement is possibly true.
    It appals me that the stadium only had 47k in it lasted night, and I
    hold true to my contention that that affected the Pirate players.
    
    As per you sewage that Pgh isn't worht a damn as a baseball town,
    bullsh!t.  Pittsburgh is a town rich inn baseball tradition, spanning
    back to the 1800's.  Who played in the first World Series, I aks
    you????  Pittsburgh .vs. Boston. The Pirates have had some of the best
    players of all time play for them, Clemente, Mazeroski, Stargell, Honus
    Wagner, Paul and Lloyd Waner, and many more whose names elude me right
    now.  If Pgh was so horrible as a baseball town, why did they set club
    attendance records in each of the lasted 2 years?????The club had never
    drawn 2 mil in their history and now they've done it 2 years straight.
    Sure, a few years back they only dres 700k+, but the team was LOADED
    with a bunch of deadweight who couldn't have beat a team of corpses.
    Buys like George"I don't run out ground balls"Hendricks, Steve Kemp,
    Sammy Khalifa, and a host of others who were barely class "A" minor
    league material.  Why drop $30 for the night when you could pay $.25
    the nexted day for the paper and read about the LOSS.  People got tired
    of Chuck "dipshit" Tanner's attitude, "oh well, that's the breaks".
    They won the '79 World Championship in spite op Tanner, not because of
    him.
    
    Baseball was in Pittsburgh long before youse Minny-sodains even knew
    how to walk upright.  But the fans will turn out in droves to the
    Hubert's House of Heifers Metrognome so's they cain show off their
    Beamers in the parking lot, eat tons of Brie and sushi, and drink
    expensive crappy tasting wine, along with their freinds, Muffy and
    Biff,  and they'll just generally YUP OUT!!
    
    I don't know what kept the people away from lasted night's game, but if
    I had been in the 'burgh, I woulda been there.  I know now that there's
    many people who are glad they didn't drop the $40 to see the shitty
    excuse for a basebnall game the Bucs pretended to play lasted night.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    JaKe, weren't you walking out of the classroom about an hour ago?
    
    T's even made you log on longer than you have to.  Get home and when
    you come out of the tunnel tonight, say a little "hello" for ol' dan'l.  
    
    Believe it or not, I'm off to Atlanta tonight.  Going swimming with a
    girl I hardly know down there.  Wonder how many laps I can do in that
    hotel room jacuzee.  Should be fun.
    
    See yunz.
    
    	--dan'l

>    Believe it or not, I'm off to Atlanta tonight.  Going swimming with a
>    girl I hardly know down there.  Wonder how many laps I can do in that
>    hotel room jacuzee.  Should be fun.
    
dan'l,

You're really starting to annoy me!

If you're going swimming with her and you hardly know her, be safe....

Wear a wetsuit!  8^)

>lately your notes are starting to read like a cheap
>    harlequin novel.
    
    Funny, so is my life.
    
    Thanks for the chuckle, Saw.  Just what I needed after the Pirates'
    demise.  (See, I knew I could get this back to the NL.)
    
    Is anyone going to start a world series note or will that discussion be
    reduced to IgKnorr and T(winkie brain) on VAXphone since this will be
    so anti-climactic?
    
    	--dan'l
    

    Main I *luv* you Pittsburgh guys!  
    
    First, cuz almost all a you seem to be *from* Pittsburgh.  And, hey,
    I ain't gonna rub your faces in the stinky choke-job turned in by
    them fishbone sword-swallowers who wear those stupid retro puke yellow
    and black uniforms who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty.
    
    No, I LUV the way you guys shamelessly fed us a crock o' bull about 
    last year's empty seats and now THIS year what do we git?
    
    	* Dan'l turning to unsafe sex to salve his remorse
    
    	* RaKe waxing about antediluvian history as if it somehow meant
          anything.  Hey, RaKe, git a clue willya.  Be here now!  Be here
          now or be square how you cain compare Pirate feigns with real
          baseball fans is beyond MrT and reality!
    
    re: Rochibaud
    
    Know what?  It's good to see you finally emerge as WardleVane's
    successor.  But, like Pittsburghians, you ain't even a good front-runner.
    
    MrT

>    	* Dan'l turning to unsafe sex to salve his remorse
    
    Never do I perform unsafe sex.  I ALWAYS use a safety net.
    
    	--dan'l

    MrT
    
     I really don't think this guy comes close to Wardlevane when it
    come to blowing in the wind.......  I could be wrong,  lets ask JoJ's
    dog Jerry !!!!  ;^)
    
    Big Game

    
    Little late on this, but... first things first, I must extend a hearty 
    congratulations to the Braves.  For the most part, this team is a bunch 
    of kids, mere pups, and they didn't back down one iota in response to 
    the pressure of this intense NLCS.  They slipped up a bit last night, 
    but I expect they'll be back strong tonight to tie things up at 1-1.  
    I don't know if MrT was blowing smoke or not, but regardless I guess he 
    got to see what he wanted in Game 1 from that "corporate box" of his,
    wherever it might be located.
    
    On a second point, I hope most of what I've read in the aftermath of 
    Game 7 was just the immediate emotional reaction to a disappointing 
    series for the Pirates, because most of it doesn't make too much sense.
    Would we be hearing all this crying over overpaid players and ticket
    prices if Bonds and company had come through and the Braves hadn't? 
    I seriously doubt it.  Hey, somebody's got to win and somebody's got 
    to lose, even if *both* sides get paid well (and if the Braves' players
    aren't right now, they soon will be).  I can also personally attest
    that there are many, many tickets available and affordable to families
    in Pittsburgh, on a regular basis, so I'm not buying into this business
    of the Pirates losing a big series somehow being responsible for all
    that's wrong in sports today.  Look at it from the other side, from the
    Braves' side, and general opinion on the matter shifts pretty quickly
    towards what's still great about the game of baseball...
    
    Why is all of this invective being hurled exclusively at Bonds and
    Bonilla, too?  What about Van Slyke?  Why is he such a sacred cow?  The
    guy's the highest paid player on the team, has already got his money
    instead of just waiting to get it, and admitted that he didn't set the 
    stage for the 3-4-5 slots and just didn't get it done (after Game 1
    he was just as much an automatic out as the guys who followed).  I'll 
    go on record as saying that if Bonds ends up walking (Bonilla's already 
    gone) in part because the Pirates decided to pay Van Slyke $4 million a 
    year over a longterm contract, they decided on the wrong guy.  I like
    Slick, but he's no Bonds, and at $4 million is overpaid by MLB standards.
    You might like his "attitude", for whatever that's worth, but it will be 
    no substitute for production.  
    
    For more perspective on Bonds, let's not forget what the eminently 
    lovable Willie Stargell did in his first *five* postseason appearances 
    *before* 1979-- .221, 2 HR, 6 RBI in the playoffs (in four of five 
    *losing* efforts), and .208, 0 HR, 1 RBI in the 1971 Series.  Are you
    guys forgetting that Willie had a *major* "choke" albatross around his
    neck going into 1979, or were you just more of a faithful fan, win or 
    lose?  Or was the offense really more forgivable just because Stargell 
    wasn't hauling down six figures?  I can't buy that.  Our memories are 
    short and always subject to revision, especially where winning and 
    losing-- a 50/50 proposition-- is concerned.  Bonds has plenty of time 
    left, and I for one would love to see a player of his caliber on my 
    team for years to come.  He's that kind of talent, and eventually 
    talent wins out.
    
    Lastly, there's no excuse for how far short Game 7 was from a sellout.
    History doesn't mean a thing if there aren't many natives left who 
    truly appreciate it.  Pittburghers sensing the "choke" doesn't cut it
    as an answer, either (how many of those folks would have been right 
    back on the bandwagon for the World Series?).  I had three members of 
    my immediate family, still die-hard Pirates fans all (I gave up such 
    rigid allegiance to my team of birthright long ago), at this series-- 
    who came in from Cincinnati, DC, and San Francisco to do so (these
    people aren't rich either, but they do understand that the opportunity
    to see the Pirates in the postseason, much less a Game 7, is a rare
    one).  It is a shame that a Game 7 to the most exciting series in years
    wasn't able to attract even 50,000 fans, even if just as fans of great 
    baseball.  If the Pirates ever do move from Pittsburgh, which really 
    would be a great tragedy, the fans who couldn't even make it out to a 
    Game 7 at the home park of the team with the best record in baseball 
    would only have themselves to blame.  You can't keep pointing fingers at
    management, not when the product has been as good as the Pirates the
    past few years...
    
    glenn
    

    >They slipped up a bit lasnight...
    
    Got their butts kicked is more like i
    
    >... but I suspect they'll be back strong tonight to tie things up at 
    >1-1
    
    No, they're 0-2 and whining about the umpiring.
    
    MrT

    Took a trip to Atlanta this weekend to visit a young lady friend of
    mine.  She is a professed Braves fan, but was quite merciful on my
    emotional state regarding the Bucs' choke job.  
    
    Anyway, she gets this room for us at the Marriott Suites downtown.  She
    said she would have a snack (food) waiting for me when I arrived after
    my long drive Friday evening.  Walked in the door, and there's this
    plate of crackers and this round glop of cheese on a plate waiting for
    me.  I asked, "What's that?"
    
    I kid you not, folks.  She replied...
    
    
    
    "Brie"
    
    
    
    It was all I could do from becoming the total definition of Seriously
    Rollward.  I ate only the crackers and got down to business.
    
    	--dan'l

    Why didn't you eat the brie?  It woluda inured you buds for sensory
    impacts encountered only minutes later, us it's a food much preferred
    by people of discrination, taste, and class.
    
    Or, more to the point, what was the beer?  Heinekin or Iron City (that
    watered-down swill much loved by chest-beating pseudo-machos too skeert
    and not main enough to admit they've made it).
    
    MrT

>    Or, more to the point, what was the beer?  Heinekin or Iron City (that
>    watered-down swill much loved by chest-beating pseudo-machos too skeert
>    and not main enough to admit they've made it).

    She had Rolling Rock waiting for me.  It was a good beer before it
    became yuppified, so that and the crackers (no pun intended) weren't
    that bad.

    And another thing, you should see Atlanta and how totally they are
    behind this team.  Got my first taste of it about 20 miles outside of
    the city when this pickup truck merges into the lane next to me and
    what should it have attached to the bed but a 10 foot, totally
    aerodynamic tomahawk.  And driving into the city, if a building doesn't
    have a tomahawk on it, it looks out of place.  Even the church steeples
    have tomahawks on them.

    Went to a formal reception at the Georgian Terrace Hotel Saturday
    night.  There's ol' dan'l mixing with the Atlanta Blue Bloods, looking
    for some old rich sugar mamma with one foot in the grave wanting
    companionship for the last few years of her life.  No such luck. 

    Anyway, I digress; most of these aristocrats in black tie and buns
    cumbered were wearing walkmans, or had watchmans, or had brought
    portables and were watching the game out on the terrace.  Their being
    so engrossed with the game left the food and drink lines short and boy
    did I take advantage of that...with utmost decorum of course.

    	--dan'l

    	Iron City is a good beer.  Figures MorT wouldn't like it.  MorT's
    like those Viking fans who came to Foxboro with parkas and huge
    blankets to guard against the 50 degree weather yesterday.  Braves
    take three in a row in Hotlanta.
    
    				/Don

Actually, Brie is not a bad cheese at all.  

Like other yuppified things, however, it has been tainted by the fact
that genetically inferior financially superior people like Chip and
Muffy have made it a symbol of their plastic lifestyle....


I'm not a big wine drinker, preferring beer and/or whiskey (Jack Daniels),
so if I ever have Brie, it ain't with win or Perrier.  (You oughta see
folks do a double take if I'm having Brie with my Jack).....


Still love a good sharp (Supremely SHARP) Vermont Cheddar the best....


'Saw

    T,
    
    I see from your personal name that you REALLY did go to da game since
    
    that particular banner wasn't shown on TV but the guy in my office
    
    told me about it earlier today.  (He also brought me a super looking
    
    Twins BBall hat, white cloth with red 1991 "M" stiched in and in large
    
    dark blue letters "Champions" stiched in just above the brim.
    
    Also hanging from my partition wall is a Homer Hankie.
    
    I gots to know - How many plates can ya stack on Bonds butt??
    
    Kev
    

    Best banner I ever saw in my life.  Btw, I saw Ted on the concourse 
    during the game.  He was walking along with this grin on his face
    (not a care in the world, but if *you* had $200M and Jane wouldn't
    YOU be grinning too?) and poking at this tiny hand-held electronic
    device not even watching where he was going.  
    
    But we watched were he was going and he was going back to sit next
    to Jane.  Dirty rat.
    
    MrT

 � I see from your personal name that you REALLY did go to da game since that
 � particular banner wasn't shown on TV but the guy in my office told me
 � about it earlier today.
 
 Not so fast, Kev.   The "Jane and Ted's Bogus Adventure" banner may not
 have been shown on the tube but it was described in yeterday's Series
 coverage in the St. Paul Pioneer Press.
 
 So, our favorite prankster's new p_name might very well be another cruel
 prank.   I think we need more proof.    I didn't see or hear about a
 "Snuff Chokes!" banner so I think it's safe to say that T did *NOT* go to
 the game.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I forget eggzakly where I saw it but I think it was in the
    
    Sunday "Parade" magazine and they had a blurb on Jane.  Seems that
    
    although she's a bodacious 53 years old, she's travelled the road
    
    that Cher has - a nip here, a tuck there and a implant to go from a 
    
    "A" to a "B".
    
    HTH,
    
    Kev
    

    T -- ask Spud about his encounter with Ted and Jane after last night's
    game (if he hasn't already told you about it, or if you haven't already
    read the BASEBALL conference).
    
    
    py

    No athletic contest would be complete without a bit of
    
    controversy so let's start this one with that little bit
    
    of an "encounter" at first base in the 4th(?) inning when the
    
    MinnyTwinny (don't remember his name) 1st baseman, ahem, assisted
    
    the Braves guy (ditto on the name) offa the bag and had him called
    
    out.
    
    Should he have been safe?  
    
    I loved how CBS tried to create an issue out of it by bringing in
    
    Lasorda and umps to keep it going.  I'm only doing my part here
    
    to help!  ~/~
    
    Kev
    

    Gant's motion pulled him off the bag.  Hrbek merely tagged him.
    You don't have to be Einstein to know that as Hrbie maintained
    the tag that it would appear as if he were pulling his leg when
    in fack he was only maintaining contact with the leg's upward
    motion that was the result of Gan's clumsiness.
    
    MrT

    RE.534
    
    Yea sure... Gant just about knocked little Kent over.
    
    I don't care who wins this boring series.  
    
    I thought Eric Gregg was working first on that call.

    Thank you, Dr. Science.
    
    The head of umps in the booth put it best (when I though he was going
    to really defend his umpire) when he:
    
    	- explained the rule
    	- said it was the ump's judgement call
    
    It was a good call if you're a Twinks fan.  It was a bad call if you're
    a Bravos fan.  It was the ump's call if you're anything else.
    
    And I loved when they woke up Lasorda to ask his opinion.  
    
    	--dan'l

>    And I loved when they woke up Lasorda to ask his opinion.  
    
They didn't wake him up.  They had to pry the Thick, Rich and
DEEEE-licous SlimeFast shake outta his mouth.....8^)

RE: Call at first

	I think Hrbeck pulled him off.  Great move too...you never get the call
if you don't give it a try.  

	and where is Mr. Robichaud today now that the spamball representative
has jumped out 2-0.  Look the Braves may need that luck after all huh /Don?


	Twins in 5....

mc

    Credit Tim McCarver for maintaining his objectivity as a analyst
    (I *LUV* it when they do that!) vis a vis the Twins among this
    pro-NL crew.
    
    He corrected the senile Jack Buck on several points, not the least
    a which is that the Dome was silent on Lemke's stupid mistake on
    the pop fly and therefore noise played no part in that miscommunication.
    
    Even Lasorda was still making this false claim at the broadcast's end.
    
    The Twins are licking their chops at the prospect of taking their big
    bats to the punk home run park called the Launching Pad.
    
    Twins in 5.
    
    MrT(wins)

       /Don lost his voice at the Pats game yesterday. That's why he's so
    quiet in here. He talks as he types.
                                   Denny

    If it was deemed Hrbek was interfering, does the runner get second?  Is
    there any deterrent on the first baseman's part?

    	--dan'l

>    a which is that the Dome was silent on Lemke's stupid mistake on
>    the pop fly and therefore noise played no part in that miscommunication.
    
    You are right, T.  It wasn't the noise that disrupted an otherwise
    routine play, but it was still the dome that caused that ball to drop. 
    In my opinion, both players feared taking their eyes off the ball and
    consequently losing it in the white roof.  
    
    Still, Justice should have been calling anyone off regardless if he
    knew Lemke was there or not.  Error on young Dave any way you look at
    it.
    
    	--dan'l

    I find it sort of ironic that Mr. T is supporting a team that plays 
    in that DH league and on that artificial stuff.
    
    Anyone know what the Twinkies record is in real stadiums with real
    grass?
    
    Mike

 Not really Mike when you consider that the Wardleshooter hisself introduced
 T to this fine conference...

 obviously they had more in common than just work....

 ;^)

           <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 3.525               The National League (Baseball)               525 of 544
AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Doin' the Tomahawk Chop"             6 lines  21-OCT-1991 09:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    	Iron City is a good beer.  Figures MorT wouldn't like it.  MorT's
    like those Viking fans who came to Foxboro with parkas and huge
    blankets to guard against the 50 degree weather yesterday.  Braves
    take three in a row in Hotlanta.
    
    				/Don

    No one mentions that Gant Should have slid back to first base.  If he
    had slid then there wouldn't have been any problems.   Gant should be
    lambasted for his mistakes, go to far of 1st to draw a throw and then
    not to slide. 
    
    

RE: /Don

	good enough...I just want to make sure you eat your share of 
crow when the Spamballer win it.

mc

    re the last couple:
    
    Braves taking three in Hotlanta is the one chance they have to still
    pull this off.   Even 2 of 3 at home makes it necessary for the Braves
    to take Games 6 AND 7 in Minnesota....I just don't see them doing that.
    
    
    py     

    >                      -< Neither did the Pirates >-
    
    Yes, BUT -- the Twinkiedome is a MUCH bigger home field advantage than
    Three Rivers.   You can take it to the bank that there would not be
    7,000 empty seats for a Game 7 in Minnesota, then throw in the physical
    factors (such as the roof) plus the fact that it's AL rules (i.e., DH
    is used, giving the Twins a much stronger lineup 1 to 9 than they'll
    have in Atlanta where the pitchers must bat.
    
    
    py

    I think it's interesting that everyone is blaming the ump and Hrebek
    for the call at 1st rather than Gant. I would say this situation is
    very much like the "missed" third base during the NLCS. Gant knew he
    would make it back, very much like Justice knew he had touched 3rd. In
    both cases, perception became reality as Justice was called out and
    Gant couldn't "hold" the bag at 1st. The AL ump at first should have
    seen the problem (although I can't say the same for the Justice play at
    third) but from what I've heard today he's not one of the better umps
    in the AL. 
    
    Dennis
    

    Dennis...
    
    You couldn't have seen the play and thought Gants' momentum carried him
    off!  I thought you paid attention to this sport!
    
    Rick:^)

    Rick, 
    
    At least one person thought it did!!!	:*)
    
    Dennis

    Gant's momentum clearly carried him off the bag.  Shoddy baserunning
    on his part.  A course, *then* protocol dictates that poor Hrbie (the
    best defensive 1B in the game) must be blamed for his clumsiness...
    
    MrT(wins)

    It's become apparent that the young Braves are in over their haids
    in this Series.  They're just happy to be there and that's a good
    outlook for them to take.  Now that they're in the Series they should
    just smile and be positive and enjoy it all and let the veteran Twins
    (who've been there before) take care a it all.
    
    Yes, they should just lay back and enjoy it...
    
    MrT(wins)

    
>    Gant's momentum clearly carried him off the bag.  Shoddy baserunning
>    on his part.  A course, *then* protocol dictates that poor Hrbie (the
>    best defensive 1B in the game) must be blamed for his clumsiness...
     
    Huh?  Never thought I'd read such tripe from an "objective analyst",
    but then again we're talking about someone who's steadfastly refused 
    to address the subject of the hypocrisy of his sudden love for the 
    Twins, in light of past criticisms of their entire operation and 
    league.  The stuff's really starting to get deep in here...
    
    For what it's worth, from the replays I saw Gant *maybe* would have 
    come off the bag had Herbie not interfered, but it did look like
    Gant switched feet on the bag and was going to maintain contact, 
    however tenuously.  Once Hrbek interfered, however, that becomes a 
    moot point.  Hrbek clearly brought the glove up and Gant's leg with
    it.  It's not the umpire's job to guess what would have happened
    in the absence of such interference.
    
    glenn
    

     It is obvious that the Braves are in over their respective heads.
    I am pulling for the Twins to win this thing but I found it pretty
    tough to do after the crap Hrbeck pulled at 1st base.  I don't know
    about you boys and girls but I was always taught that it's not
    whether you win our lose but how you play the game.....  I sure 
    wouldn't sleep well knowing I cheated in the biggest of big games.
    Although it doesn't look like they will,  I hope the Braves make
    it an interesting series !!
    
    Big Game

I tend to agree with Big Game.

The way the play looked to me, Gant looked as if he would stay on the
bag.  Yes, he was off-balance, but I didn't think his leg would come
off.

Hrbek on the other hand, did what a lot of Sportsmen do.  He pushed
the rules to the absolute limit, and got the call he wanted.

I do that on the rugby pitch every chance I can.  If I'm in the lineout,
I'll barge and barge and barge until I get called.  If I'm throwing in,
I'll shade it towards my team until it gets called.  Hrbek did the
same thing.  He pulled the guys leg, but got a favorable call.

That's the way I saw it, and I'm not particularly going for anyone
in this series, I'm just waiting for it to be over......

'Saw

    I cain trufefooly say that so far, I've watched no more than 1/3 inning
    of the Worldly Serious.
    
    I flew into Pittsburgh Saturday afternoon from Colorado Springs(boy my
    arms were tired).  After having my wife and 3 curtain climbers meet me
    at the airport, getting re-acquainted with all 4 of them, and finally
    getting to the old homestead, we had dinner and after some "TV" time,
    put the kiddies to bed.  Tally, went thru 35 gallons of "Veinerschlider
    50"....'nuff said!!
    
    Sunday, took the kiddies to WQED for the open house so's they could
    visit the real "Mr. Rogers" place.  Taped the Steelers game(tape is now
    in the trash, couldn't stand the thought of re-using something with
    that abomination of a game on it), went out to dinner, then home, put
    the kiddies to bed and finished off the rest of the 55 gallon drum of
    "veinerschlider 50".  Couldn't waste 2 perfectly good nights watching
    the worldless series!!!
    
    Anybody know where I cain get recapped??????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>                  <<< Note 3.519 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>
    >>      -< Reaction from Pittsburgh has been sad and disappointing >-
    
    >>Why is all of this invective being hurled exclusively at Bonds and
    >>Bonilla, too?  What about Van Slyke?  Why is he such a sacred cow?  The
    >>guy's the highest paid player on the team, has already got his money
    >>instead of just waiting to get it, and admitted that he didn't set the 
    >>stage for the 3-4-5 slots and just didn't get it done (after Game 1
    >>he was just as much an automatic out as the guys who followed).  I'll 
    >>go on record as saying that if Bonds ends up walking (Bonilla's already 
    >>gone) in part because the Pirates decided to pay Van Slyke $4 million a 
    >>year over a longterm contract, they decided on the wrong guy.  I like
    >>Slick, but he's no Bonds, and at $4 million is overpaid by MLB standards.
    >>You might like his "attitude", for whatever that's worth, but it will be 
    >>no substitute for production.  
    
    Glenn,
    
    On the field, BOnds is an asset, but once off of the filed, he becomes
    a liability.  Go back to lasted year's NLCS, when Jeff King was
    injured(back problems which kept him out most of this year also). 
    Bonds flaps his jaws about King not playing hurting the club.  What
    does Bonds do to help in that NLCS, hit somewhere around .183.  This
    year, he kept his big mouth shut for a while, but every time he stepped
    into the batter's box, he swung for the fences, trying to be the hero,
    instead of just trying to hit the ball, and hits, AGAIN, below .200. 
    Afterwards, he accuses the media of putting him under a microscope. 
    He's the jerk who didn't hit.  It was in the NLCS, nationally
    televised.  Overall, he is bad for team moral with some of the day to
    day BS he spews.
    
    Bonilla, on the other hand, when asked what he thought of Van Slyke's
    performance following game one, jumped down the reporter's throat,
    accusing him of trying to make Van Slyke out to be a superstar.  Sour
    Grapes over Van Slyke's contract?????  You tell me.
    
    Both Bonds and Bonilla have been holding the contract BS over the Bucs
    mgmt head all year long, with Bonds continually making threats to be
    gone after nexted year.  
    
    I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but let's compare Van
    Slyke and Bonilla.  Van Slyke hit in the low .260's this year, with 17
    HR's and 83 RBI.  Bonilla hit right about .300, with 18 homers and 100
    RBI.  Edge to Bonilla.  40 points on the average. Where Van Slyke has
    it over Bonilla HANDS DOWN is defense.  Slyke can run circles around
    Bonilla in outfield range, and in his throwing accuracy, too.  Bonilla
    is slow on the bases,  Van Slyke is a base stealing threat.  the $4 mil
    plus that Van Slyke gets is a bit on the high side, but you take Van
    Slyke out of the Pirate line-up, and CF goes to hell.  Van Slyke missed
    some games this year and while he was out, a couple of the games were
    lost on hits to center that Van Slyke would have made routinely, but
    whoever the bum of the day was in center field couldn't track down.
    Bonilla would be best suited as a first baseman, but may need a bit of
    work to succeed at it.  If I had to choose between keeping Bonilla and
    playing him in right field, or keeping Van SLyke and having him play
    center, Bonilla would have his plane reservations already. 
    
    What the Pirates should do with the Bonds situation, if Larry Doughty
    is smart, and there are many here in Pittsburgh who think he's not, is
    trade Bonds now, while his stock is up.  Get a starter(LF or RF) for
    him, and a couple of young prospects, and throw his going away party
    after his plane leaves.  Bonds is a little kid in a man's body.
    
    Bonilla will probably get huge bucks this winter, but he's just a
    slightly above average ball player, at best.  He's not worth more than
    $2.5-3.0mil/year, but he'll get almost twice that.  As far as Bonds
    goes, once he gets a "big bucks" contract, I look for him to do what
    Dave Parker did when he got his huge contract in Pittsburgh, FALL FLAT
    ON HIS FACE!!!!!  it'll go to Bonds head and he'll drown in himself for
    a year or two afterward.
    
    Another thing the Bucs should do, tell Jim Leyland that they'll double
    his salary and give him a gauranteed 5 year contract with an
    exclusivity clause in it.  Manage the Bucs, or no one for the nexted
    five years.  Leyland has, with help from Syd Thrift and Larry
    Dorky...er...I mean Doughty, built this team.  he's been the major
    factor for the Bucs having the best record in baseball during the
    regular season, and making the playoffs the lasted 2 years.  It was his
    big bats that let him down and kept the Bucs from being up 2-0 over the
    Twinkies right now.  Above all, KEEP LEYLAND!!!
    
    'nuff for now
    
    JaKe
    

>    poor Hrbie (the
>    best defensive 1B in the game) 
    
    I recall six months ago T making a claim that Casey was the best goalie
    in hockey.  After this, he was pulled in the remaining three games due
    to his ineffectiveness and the Penguines won the Stanley Cup.
    
    	--dan'l

	You know, the way Poor MrT has been staggerin' around on this 
designated geek issue, like a rummy swinging from a street lamp, one has to 
question the main's stability.  MorT, I's worried about ya'.

				/Don

P.S. Go Braves!  Win it for *real* baseball!!

    There is no hypocrisy in my rooting for the Twins.  Explain your charge,
    Waugamain, and I'll answer it.  But for now, you're just blowing hot
    air, just so much bluster.
    
    As for Hrbie, he's generally considered the best defensive 1B in the
    game.  The only reason he hasn't been winning Gold Gloves in the past
    is cuz a a certain pocked-face violence-prone whiner who hits .197 and
    steals basks in Gilt by Association and a 49 rabbit ball homer year...
    
    But the gig's up on him now.
    
    MrT
    

    
    > As for Hrbie, he's generally considered the best defensive 1B in the
    > game.  The only reason he hasn't been winning Gold Gloves in the past
    > is cuz a a certain pocked-face violence-prone whiner who hits .197 and
    > steals basks in Gilt by Association and a 49 rabbit ball homer year...

    Truly an injustice, but McGwire has affected Hrbek in exactly *one* year
    of his ten-year career.  And while Hrbek is certainly a fine fielder
    (and with Joyner probably one of the two the best in the AL), the
    "best in the game" claim belies MrT's professed knowledge and 
    preference for the Senior Circuit, where Mssrs. Clark and Grace reside,
    superior fielders both.
    
    > There is no hypocrisy in my rooting for the Twins.  Explain your charge,
    > Waugamain, and I'll answer it.  But for now, you're just blowing hot
    > air, just so much bluster.
                          
    Bailiff:     Doyousweartotellthetruththewholetruthandnothinngbutthetruth
                 sohelpyouGod?
    
    Defendant:   I do. 
    (MrT)            
    
    Prosecutor:  Have you at any time in the past suggested that a 
    (Waugamain)  sub-standard Minnesota Twins' franchise might serve as a 
                 suitable candidate for bringing the great game of
                 baseball to the more deserving city of Denver, Colorado?
                 
    Defendant:   Um, er, hem, haw...
    
    Prosecutor:  Answer the question, please, sir!
    
    
    glenn
    
    

    Defendant:  Yes, I have in the past, and continue at this time, state
                that each and every ALmost League franchise is substandard
                in terms a the product put on the field from the standpoint
                a quality and esthetics, which are critical to a non-action
                thinking main's game such as baseball.
    
                And no, you ain't even explicated how this in any way shape
                or form constitutes hypocrisy on my part in connnection with
                me rooting for the Twins in this World Series.  
    
    	        So, Mr. Persecutor, if they ain't even a question axed (and
                there isn't), then I ain't guilty a hypocrisy.
    
    	        But *you* are hereby found Guilty of non-pacific blabber !!
    
    MrT

    
>        Defendant:  Yes, I have in the past, and continue at this time, state
>                that each and every ALmost League franchise is substandard
>                in terms a the product put on the field from the standpoint
>                a quality and esthetics, which are critical to a non-action
>                thinking main's game such as baseball.
 
    Prosecutor:  Irrelevant!  Moving an AL franchise from Minnesota
                 to Denver would not in any way improve the esthetics
                 of ALmost League baseball, unless you were implying
                 that the Minnesota Twins were in some way deficient
                 even by ALmost League standards!  Is it not hypocrisy
                 for a Minnesota native who once suggested that major
                 league baseball would be better off without a team 
                 there (but instead with a team in Denver) to adopt the 
                 moniker MrT(wins) upon said team's arrival in the 
                 postseason, and additionally to generally carry on like 
                 a lovesick schoolboy over the newfound success of "his"
                 Minnesota Twins?!  *That* is the question, and the 
                 accusation before you that you must refute...
    
    glenn
    

Gentlemen, Gentlemen....

You didn't ask permission to have a Trial in here.

Even in the REAL world, you gots to get a date on the docket.  You
just cain't usurp a courtroom and get going at it.....


'Saw

>                 -< Shaddup 'Saw.  This is better 'n CourTV. >-

I'm the DocketMaster.  If you wanna get a courtroom, ya hafta ask
permission!

                   <<< Note 3.572 by CAM::WAY "Go Wahoos!" >>>

>                 -< Shaddup 'Saw.  This is better 'n CourTV. >-

>> I'm the DocketMaster.  If you wanna get a courtroom, ya hafta ask
>> permission!


  IMPEACH the DocketMaster NOW!!!!!!1111111111

    THHHHHHHHHPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTT !!!!!!!!!
    
    I Taut I Taw I Putty Tat !!!!
    
    Big Game

    >the accusation before you that you must refute...
    
    What accusation?  You ain't accused me a a damned thing.  It's 
    still up to you to explicate any connection between my high browed
    denunciation of the Designated Geek, Turf, and domes, and my perfectly
    understandable boosterism for the Twins, who are clearly the best team
    in the game.
    
    When you do that, *if* you do that (and you won't), then let's talk.
    
    MrT(win Twins WIN !!)