Conference hips::uk_audioo

    Hook up your NICAM decode and , if you get the Crystal Palace IBA
    signal, you have regular NICAM sound NOW!! - it started this week
    (if you look closesly in TV times, you will see some music programmes
    marked 'NICAM digital sound').
    The beeb are also doing test transmissions - which, if you watch    
    the NICAM indicator in the shops, seems to mean on almost everything!
           
    Of course, if you don't get the London transmissions, you may have
    to wait a bit, tho some other trasmitters are also sending NICAM.    
        
    Dave

Hello,

I have just bought a TV and Video that I have wired up through my HIFI. I 
have heard rumours that by using the scart connection the sound and picture
quality improves quite drastically. Is this true?

Can anybody clarify this for me.

Also, does anybody know anything about the QED switch box used to expand
the amount of inputs on your Amp.

thanks for any help you can give me.

Jonathan

    re-1
    
    I have a SCART cable for mono TV's and Videos if you have a SCART
    plug on your amp then you can have my cable if you want it.
    
    Grant

    
    Has anyone ever seen a cable that has SCART on one end, and two phono
    plugs on the other end ? That's what I'd need to connect our video and
    amp. together.
    
    Trevor

    Re; .4
    
    Trevor,
    
    Tandy do a cable with a SCART plug on one end to two phono plugs
    (L & R audio) and one coax plug (composite video).

    Graham

    re.4
    
    I have one but it is only mono.
    
    Grant

    I have a SCART cable in use at the moment which runs to at least
    five phonos - 4 x audio in/out, 1 for picture. I got it in Tottenham
    Court Rd a few years back.
    
    Mike

    
    I've just bought (fram Tandy, thanks...) a SCART plug and a couple of
    phono plugs, in order to make myself up a cable to go from my video to
    my amp.
    
    It occurs to me that I don't know which part of a phono plug is the
    ground connection. Is it the central pin, or the cylindrical bit around
    the pin ? I would think it's more likely to be the cylindrical bit,
    but can someone confirm this  ?
    
    Trevor

    
    It's the cylindrical part. The center pin is therefore the signal.
    
    Peter

    Well I just bought (on saturday) a Panasonic NV-f65B NICAM Hi-Fi Stereo
    Video Recorder and it is GREAT.  I recieve the transmissions from
    London (Thames/LWT) and the Stereo light never went out over the whole
    weekend (BBC1,BBC2,ITV & Channel 4) all in stereo!!!
    
    Grant

    Does that one do long play recording too? And how much did you pay,
    Grant?

    re-1
    
    Yes it does long play and has all the goodies (bar code reader ect....)
    
    I payed �594.76
    
    �499 for the VCR
    �85 for a 2 year service agreement
    �9.99 for 3 blank tapes
    �0.70ish for a plug
    
    What is the difference between the 65 and the 70 ?
    
    Grant

re .-1

I have had a NVF70B for the past year and been absolutely delighted with it 
(see other notes dotted around this conference).

The big difference between the 65 and the 70 is the jog/shuttle dial which
allows you to accurately position the tape for editing purposes. I also have a
camcorder and bought the 70 specifically because of this feature, in truth
though I have hardly used it. 

At the time that I purchased the 65 hadn't been put on the market so I didn't
actually have to make a choice. I think that I paid about �560 for the 70 but
if I was buying today I think that I would probably opt for the 65 and save the
money. 

Nigel

BTW I use long play all the time. There is no perceptible difference in quality 
on either video or sound.

    Thanks for the info.. I must admit, the bar code reader puts me right
    off it (I hate paying for gimmicks). Otherwise it sounds good value.
    
    Keith

    Sorry to correct you Grant but the 65 has LP mode for AUDIO only (no
    picture).
    
    The only real differences between the two are:
    
    Jog and shuttle, a 'Flying' erase head and LP mode with picture...oh
    and of course 50 quid!
    
    ..Craig
    
    

    re-2
    
    I find the bar code quite usful (no fiddley little buttons to press to
    set the clock/timer)
    
    re-1
    
    I did not realize the 65 only used LP mode in Audio only.  SH*T I have
    about 10 3 Hour tapes that I have recorded Films onto in LP mode :-(
    
    Grant

	I hadn't realised that the 65 only did LP on Audio. If that is the case 
then I will amend my statement in my previous to say that if buying today I 
would buy the 70.

	I think the Jog/shuttle and Flying Erase head for insert edits may be
useful to me in the future with my camcorder and combined with the LP Video 
mode would make it worth the extra �50.

	I do find the LP mode very useful as it not only means that you could 
for example record something like Live Aid in its entirety but also allows you 
to record a number of separate programmes amounting to up to 8 hours while you 
are out. It only takes a couple of movies on the same evening to be too long 
for SP. It also means that I have half the number of videocassettes in my 
cupboard.

	I thought that the bar code reader would be a gimmick but I do find it 
very useful. It _is_ easier and less fiddly than pressing buttons. In fact I've 
forgotten how to set the timer without the bar code reader. Incidentally every 
few months it stops scanning, I got really worried the first time and bought 
new batteries. I have found that you need to clean the lens on the reader, it
is a bit awkward too because it is so small but then the reader works again.

Nigel

    Sorry I made a mistake in my reply, the diffrence is actually 100 quid
    not 50!
    
    Re -1
    How good is the picture/sound quality in LP mode compared with SP?
    The LP mode doesn't interest me much due to the fact that I like all my
    recordings (especially stereo films) to be top quality - (SNOB),
    and the prices of tapes is fairly cheap nowadays. 
    
    re -2
    Oh dear Grant, try reading the instructions next time 8-) 8-)
    
    
    ..Craig  

    To be honest, I haven't ever used a barcode video, so perhaps I'm being
    a little premature in my ridiculing of it. However, I don't as a rule
    buy a newpaper, and I'd have to buy *something* (right?) to get the
    barcodes. One idea I DO like is the videos that allow you to set
    programmes from teletext.
    
    Anyone know a good VCR with Nicam, HiFi sound, LP for video,
    8 event/14 day programmable from Teletext?
    
    Keith

re .18
	When I got the 70 I did some comparative tests and could not detect any 
difference between LP and SP on the picture or the sound. I also own a Video 8 
camcorder and find that the quality of VHS is not as good as that. The image is 
sharp but the colour registration is not as good so that the colours 'swim' 
in a slightly fuzzy way compared to the source material. This is no worse on 
LP.
	I now have a much better TV set with SCART connectors and will repeat 
the tests to see if I can detect any difference now. I seem to recall from 
reading Video magazines that the resolution is typically 280 lines in SP and 
260 in LP so there obviously is a slight difference but whether it matters is 
a subjective matter.

	As with all audio/video equipment it is really worth shopping around. 
Dixons, Currys & Comet are rarely if ever the cheapest. A few phone calls can 
easily save you 30/40/50 pounds. Look through the ads in What Video. I bought 
my VCR from Colourama 2000 in North London. They won't give you a price unless 
you are ready to buy. So get lots of quotes, tell them the cheapest and they
will undercut it.

re .19
	Actually Keith you don't have to buy anything to get the bar codes. You
get a plastic card with bar codes on. You are using the scanner merely as an
alternative to keying in the numbers. The procedure to set a recording is:
switch on scanner/scan channel/scan date/scan start hours/scan start
minutes/scan end hours/ scan end minutes/transmit to VCR . This may sound all a
bit involved but I can assure you that a swipe over with the scanner is quicker
& easier than pressing little buttons on the remote. 

	The 65/70 aren't the cheapest NICAM HiFi LP VCRs but I believe that 
they are rated at the top for picture quality and facilities. I believe that 
you can get other VCRs as cheap as �400 nowadays.

Nigel

Our Video has a scanner, but I don't use it. Mainly because the scanner
is in a separate box. I think they are integrated now, aren't they?

    re-1
    
    Yes they are the 65 has the scanner built into the bottom right corner
    of the remote control.
    
    Grant

Re .21

	Yes the scanner is part of the remote control.

Re my previous notes

	I've just done an A/B test this lunchtime on SP/LP and I take back what 
I said regarding LP. There _is_ a noticeable deterioration in picture quality
on LP. 

	I now have a Sony Trinitron with SCART input and think that previously 
the poorer quality TV and RF input meant that the differences between SP & LP 
were indistinguishable. This was  because the resolution was no better than
that obtainable with LP. Now can get better resolution the difference is 
apparent.

	SP is now indistinguishable from broadcast. Quickly flicking between a 
recording of a short segment of programme then being braodcast & the broadcast 
itself it was impossible to distinguish them. This was not the case previously.

	LP looks a little fuzzier but is still very good indeed I can still
live with slightly lower quality most of the time. There is definitely no
difference in the sound quality between LP and SP. 

	I guess I've got to change my mind now and only use LP for time 
shifting or non critical programmes. Anything that I really want to keep then I 
think that I'll use SP.

Nigel

Re .19

>    Anyone know a good VCR with Nicam, HiFi sound, LP for video,
>    8 event/14 day programmable from Teletext?

	I don't know how good it is but the cheapest that I have seen (without 
the Teletext programming but with LP, NICAM, HiFi etc) is the new Amstrad 8800
for �369.99 from Dixons. 

	The Teletext programming is on optional extra on a number of machines 
e.g. JVC 830 (about �500 without Teletext). Don't forget that you only get 
todays & tomorrows programmes on Teletext).

Nigel

.24�                                            Don't forget that you only get 
.24�todays & tomorrows programmes on Teletext).
    
    True, but you can always manually program in other programmes. The vast
    majority of the programmes I tape are on today or tomorrow.
    
    Thanks for the info -
    Keith

	You have to be careful, I think, when considering picture quality
	as to the size of tube on which it's displayed. VCR output has less
	definition than normal broadcast but this will tend to be lost on
	a small screen, but more noticeable on a large one. On my 18"
	trinitron replay is pretty well indistinguishable, particularly
	when using extra quality tapes (TDK-EHG in the NVF65) but when I
	was assessing videos to buy the measure was usually a 26" job
	where you can see the difference quite clearly between models.

	I too was sceptical about the bar code reader but then there are
	other ways to program it. However it really is very easy to use
	and one becomes converted.


>>							Incidentally every 
>>few months it stops scanning, I got really worried the first time and bought 
>>new batteries. I have found that you need to clean the lens on the reader, it
>>is a bit awkward too because it is so small but then the reader works again.

	It sounds as if you may not have read the manual (a daunting task
	I'll grant you) since there is a warning about dust accumulation
	and instructions on cleaning by removing the cover from the bar
	code reader. I tried this as an experiment and estimate the time 
	to clean it at about 20 seconds flat!.

	
	-John

    Just to close the loop, I bought the Panasonic F70B from Reading HiFi
    on Saturday. Paid �599: �89 then and �85/month on interest free credit
    (six monthly payments). They even threw in a plug for "free". 
    
    I like it, although I've only recorded and watched the Star Trek movie
    and 48 hours so far (the latter was spoilt by ITV's purile censorship,
    but the Nicam stereo on ST was great).
    
    It would be nice if the barcodes included a "today" barcode instead of
    me having to work out the date (or have I missed something?), but
    otherwise it seems pretty good.
    
    Keith

    
>     and 48 hours so far (the latter was spoilt by ITV's purile censorship,
>     but the Nicam stereo on ST was great).
    
    Yes, I thought it was a "damn" shame that they censored it.

re .-2

	A wise choice Keith.

	Perhaps we can form an F70B owners club? There are now several 65/70 
owners reading this file obviously the audiophiles choice.

>    It would be nice if the barcodes included a "today" barcode instead of
>    me having to work out the date (or have I missed something?), but
>    otherwise it seems pretty good.

	This is the one nit that I would have with the programming on the 
machine. You have to refer to the date on your newspaper (or Teletext) and then 
enter that. It would have been a good idea if when the date was left blank then 
it defaulted to the current date. After all the machine does know & display
what day of the week it is. 

Nigel

	Just happened to be browsing through Dixons today and bought some 
cheap'n'cheerful BASF Chrome tapes (7 for �7.99) when I noticed that they have 
the Amstrad NICAM HiFi VCR in their sale for �350. It has LP and SP and looks
pretty good value. 

	Incidentally for those fellow members of the Panasonic NV F65/70 Owners
Club who haven't owned one as long as I have. I've just had to replace the 
batteries in the remote. They didn't fail completely but the LCD became very 
faint but the remote remained usable. Nice to get a bit of warning, enough to 
make sure that you can leave it till the next day to buy some batteries.

Nigel

	For those people who might be in the market for a video I've just 
sighted the lowest price NICAM HiFi. It's a Comet 'own brand' the ProLine 55??. 
It looks a lot like the Amstrad and has all the same specs e.g. NICAM, HiFi, 
LP. It costs a penny under �300.

	My father has just bought one and from my brief examination of the unit 
at the weekend it looks like amazingly good value for money. I was very 
impressed with the sound & video quality plus the user interface. Not quite as 
good as my Panasonic and it lacks the niceties like indexing but then again 
it's half the price.

Nigel

	A Dixons advertising leaflet that fell from my paper on
	Sunday had the following re NICAM videos.

	Cheapest at only �250 was a one that only records in non-hifi
	mode.

	Cheapest full-function was a �360 machine.

	However this conferences favourite, the Panasonic NVF-65B, was
	on offer at �460 with interest free credit too. I make that
	an effective price of about �435.

	-John

   
   I hadn't bothered purchasing a VCR until in December 1990 when the price 
   of NICAM VCRs fell below 300. I had borrowed friends machines 
   occasionally but had never been impressed with the quality the mono audio 
   such models provided. However when Near Instantaneous Compounded Audio 
   Multiplexing was supposed to have become more wide spread, as well as the 
   drop in price, I decided to take the plunge.
    
   Admittedly after meagre research, I put my hard earned cash, 299, on a 
   SHASIO 6600, ( or similar ) from the local dixons/currys. What Video did 
   list it as good value and the cheapest NICAM machine out.
   
   I immediately connected it up to my Creek 4140 amp/ Haybrook HB1 spkrs, ( 
   sorry if the numbers aren't exact ).
   
   I was suitably impressed when "stereo" was displayed as I tuned into each 
   channel and the sound was reasonably good quality, as well as actually 
   coming out of both spkrs. However I have since noticed that "stereo" 
   being displayed is not an absolute indicator of audio quality. To be fair 
   the odd program can be very good, though not on par with the Rega III. 
   However some music programs that are advertised as stereo in the Radio 
   Times are not of very good audio quality, much hiss can be heard.
   
   Why is NICAM, assuming "stereo" displayed on my VCR means NICAM, so 
   inconsistent even when viewing recently produced stereo programs ?
   
   I was quite shocked with the play back sound when I recorded something 
   and played it back, and when playing pre-recorded tapes. This is due to 
   the VCR using linear stereo recording which is extremely poor, no where 
   as good as my 5yr old Toshiba cassette deck recording at the same time. I 
   experimented with LP recording which had the effect of making recorded 
   music programs almost unlistenable. Just a warning.
   
   The question I ask is do the more expensive Hi-Fi VCRs provide a better
   play back sound quality when recording NICAM transmissions,
   and if so how ? ( I know VHS Hi-Fi is good, that's not in question ).
   
   Is the NICAM information recorded as broadcasted, i.e. embedded in the 
   VHF signal so that it can then decoded again on play back ? I think this 
   unlikely as that should be easy, hence there is no excuse for using 
   linear audio recording, only linear play back is required to be backwards 
   compatible with older recordings.
   
   
   I would be grateful if anyone can throw a little light on this.
   
   Sorry if I've gone on too long.
   
   Mike.

re .33
   
>   The question I ask is do the more expensive Hi-Fi VCRs provide a better
>   play back sound quality when recording NICAM transmissions,
>   and if so how ? ( I know VHS Hi-Fi is good, that's not in question ).

>   Is the NICAM information recorded as broadcasted, i.e. embedded in the 
>   VHF signal so that it can then decoded again on play back ? I think this 
>   unlikely as that should be easy, hence there is no excuse for using 
>   linear audio recording, only linear play back is required to be backwards 
>   compatible with older recordings.

	Yes the sound is great (see lots of other notes here about this). They
record it in HiFi format, I don't believe that the NICAM information is stored
as such. There is absolutely _NO_ excuse for linear recording except cost
cutting on the part of video manufacturers. Actually stereo linear recording is
even worse than normal mono VHS linear sound as the track is half the width. 
   
	My first VHS recorder was a HiFi model and I was astonished at how bad 
normal VHS sound was when I played back a tape recorded on a non HiFi machine. 
I've also checked it out by just listening to the linear track (althogh not for 
long). You're right it is worse than a cassette deck, it's actually worse than 
a cheap ghetto blaster. When the difference has been heard I'm surprised that 
there is any market for non-HiFi models. You can however pay more for a VCR 
with crap sound than for a basic NICAM HiFi model. We're not talking about the
difference in sound between audiophile & normal consumer equipment, what we're
talking about is the difference between a wind-up gramophone & a CD player. 

Nigel

    I think the more expensive machines are capable of recording the
    digital NICAM signal, ready for conversion at tape playback time.
    
    This is also a problem with the external NICAM decoders one can buy. 
    When viewing a broadcast it's great, but you can't use it when
    replaying a tape.

	Yes, see topics 37 and 230 for more Nicam stuff. With half
	a grand at stake I did a very thorough survey (see 37) both
	on sound and picture quality. Proper Nicam sound is superb,
	and unaffected by interference. The better videos can also
	be used as tape recorders, and normal Hi-Fi equipment is now
	appearing with specific VCR input/outputs (same as normal tape
	and CD really but separately identified).

	The lights on the video only indicate that the transmitter
	is pumping out the signal. Since this may well have been encoded
	from an analogue original of varying quality what you get varies
	a lot. Most programs are still in mono but the number that get
	the full works is increasing.

	A quick trade up whilst Nicam videos are still a great rarity
	might be a good idea.

	-John

	I've had my '65 for a year now and performance is still impeccable.

Hi,

I have a "Stereo video", which I have used for a good few years.  
It has a primitive Dolby B implementation and is 5 years old.  I 
run it through �800 worth of Amp/Speakers.  The sound is 
infinitely better than the standard TV output, but obviously 
floored.  Recorded material is mono, Stereo material still has 
some hiss and is a little dull.  I guess the playback response is 
80hz-12khz, with occasional dropouts in one channel.  I presume it 
merely splits the allocated mono track tape space in half to 
record it's two stereo traks.

A few weekends back, a friend demonstrated his NICAM video 
recorder, through his mid-range hi-fi system.  It was just a 
standard Hi-Fi VHS pre-recorded copy of part of the Star Wars 
trilogy.

My lord, have things improved in this market!  I soon went out and 
bought a What Video? Jun'92 magazine (I have these certain 
problems).  I hope the following of interest to Hi-Fi'ers...

The cheepest NICAM video in their recommended models is the Sharp 
VH-H81H list price �380, can't see it reduced in any advertising.

A machine of particular interest is the Mitsubishi HS-M55, listed 
at �530.  It has a "great NICAM sound" and "very good" picture 
quality, recently attaining their Best-buy-of-Year award.  It also 
has outstanding VHS Indexing (auto and manual) and a jog/shuttle 
knob on the remote control.  The really exciting news is that the 
mail order adverts list it as low as �425, this model first 
appeared Dec'91.

Another interesting NICAM recommendation is the Akai VS-F510 
4-head NICAM, with very good sound and excellent picture specs.  
It is listed as low as �350 mail-order, it first appeared Oct'91.


Incidently, the cheepest S-VHS video is the JVC HR-S4700 at �700 
which can also record the future 16:9 widesreen format.  This 
looks like the Linn LP12 of video recorders, a cheep entry ticket 
into a completely different league of standards.


I have read in the past about different techniques used to recored 
NICAM encoded TV programs.  Something like:

o  The real cheep VCRs record in the mono track (similar to mine).  
o  The better ones record in the picture mixed Hi-Fi stereo tracks.  
o  The seriously good ones record the NICAM code with the picture, 
   ready to decode again during each playback, with absolutely NO 
   sound degredation/deterioration.

Does anyone know about this?
I also look forward to any further comments about Audio on Video...

Robert.


p.s. 
the PAGODA::VIDEO conference doesn't mention NICAM, as this is of 
little interest to our Transatlantic colleagues.

<<p.s.                                                             >> 
<<the PAGODA::VIDEO conference doesn't mention NICAM, as this is of>> 
<<little interest to our Transatlantic colleagues.                 >>

NICAM is not used in North America, therefore it is unknown on
this side of the pound. That is why it is never mentionned in the 
PAGODA::VIDEO conference.

Our stereo TV broadcasts use analog technology.

Hopefully someday we will have something similar to NICAM.


Regards.

Ga�tan.

    I see that Currys were also selling the Akai 510 for 349 pounds last
    weekend.
    
    Andy - happy Akai fs-650 owner

Hi.  
I too recently looked around town at prices.  The sales people in 
such chain stores didn't seem to be adding much knowledge, I still 
went for the Mitsubishi mail-order from London.  Ordered it 3pm 
Thursday, it arrived 1pm on Friday, and works too!

I've quite enjoyed playing with this new toy, I'm another one of those 
annoying happy consumers:

I am reasonably impressed with the audio performance.  All broadcast 
stations I receive in the Thames Valley leave the NICAM/Stereo 
indicator on.  Some are clearly mono, but do benefit from the digital 
transmission.  This can be confirmed by switching the NICAM out on the 
Video panel.  

Interestingly, I happened to notice one BBC2 documentary sounded far 
nicer without NICAM.  Is this again the digital distortion, bane of 
your life Mr.Sallitt?

The actual Audio recording method employed in the HS-M55 is the 
"better one" technique mentioned in my note -.37   I found this is 
what a VHS Hi-Fi mark means.  The VHS Hi-Fi recorded quality is quite 
good, even on budget quality VHS tapes.  Sounds as if it is doing the 
full range, bass is low and tight, cymbals nice and clear, and don't 
seem to be confused about their purpose in life.  The less obvious, 
but more important mid-range also seems intact. No specs in the User 
Guide, but I expect this equates with 20hz to over 16khz.

Recorded material off a CD source is pretty close to that via �140 
worth of Compact Cassette recorder which I have (i.e. very good).  
There is a slight harshness added to replayed recordings, similar to 
that which my previous �150 CD player gave to anything played back.

I have not seen any VHS videos stated to actually record the NICAM 
source signal though, this is the "seriously good" method mentioned in 
-.37  Is this a figment of my imagination, or do such decks exist?


I find the quality of pre-recorded videos reasonably good, this Hi-Fi 
VHS mark really means something when stamped on the binder spines!   I 
am also impressed with the sound quality given to broadcast TV 
programs.  I first heard Annie Lenox perform during Wogan, gosh!  I 
might even lower myself to add Top of the Pops to the timer programs.

We're talking atmosphere here; at the start of the Aliens film, with 
the amp cranked a little, you can actually feel the outer door hit the 
floor after it has been cut around and falls inwards. 8-)

All in all, it's not a perfect piece of kit, but recorded and 
broadcast standards are now much higher than I gave credit to.

NICAM TV and VHS Hi-Fi, can this really have become high-end audio? 

Rob.

	Just to add a little more to my HiFi video history. I've just bought a
second video recorder. Radio Rentals are selling off refurbished ex-rental TVs
& VCRs (sale ends tomorrow) & I found a Ferguson 3V48 for �109.99. This is a
basic HiFi video model, no NICAM, no LP but a great price. 

	I picked up a copy of the Daily Mirror on the tube yesterday & there
was an advert for the Radio Rentals sale with a voucher for �10 off a video
recorder. So I paid only �99.99 for my new toy. It comes with a 3 month
guarantee & looks externally in better condition than my existing VCR (no
scratches or small, sticky fingerprints) Incidentally they have other non-HiFi
VCRs for �99.99 & a variety of TVs from �79.99. 

	As to why I want a second VCR, well I've already rehearsed this for my
domestic financial controller. 1) Ability to copy video tapes - but definitely
not infinging copyright:-) 2) Watch a video while recording TV programme 3) Put
it in another room with the 2nd TV when I've grown tired of Postman Pat &
Thomas the Tank Engine 

Nigel