Conference hips::uk_audioo

    re .0....
    
    If you're using "Tandy"-type speaker cables in that system, Alf,
    better cables will transform the sound.
    
    Mains cable, solid or stranded, probably works better than the "bell
    wire" that's passed off as speaker cable by many dealers because
    it's thicker. They can compromise sound quality, however, as the purity
    of copper used isn't too good (it doesn't need to be for mains).
    
    "Proper" cable starts around just under a pound per metre with QED
    79 strand, and this is good value; next up are Naim NACA4, Linn,
    Exposure (all stranded), or DNM (solid), and these range from (I
    think) about #1.50 to #2.50/metre. They *do* sound diffferent to
    each other. I use Naim NACA4 and have no itch yet to experiment with 
    more esoteric stuff, so it must be doing its job OK. If these are
    too expensive try Radiospares 56 strand cable; as it's only single
    core you'll need to buy two lots (different colours), and twist
    them yourself - I read somewhere that about 2 twists per metre was
    best, but I'm not sure.
    
    No speaker cable will work well unless it's properly
    terminated/connected at each end; this may be stating the obvious,
    but it's not easy to achieve, as most of the above cables are *pigs*
    to solder unless you have some way of supporting the cable and the
    plug, in close proximity, while you apply the solder and iron. If
    you're in any doubt about your soldering ability, get the shop to
    do it, don't compromise your system's sound with tatty soldering.
    You'll need *at least* a 40-watt iron. Don't spend a mint on plugs,
    if the standard Radiospares 4mm plug is OK for Linn, Naim and others,
    you shouldn't have too many problems with them!
    
    Dave

    First and foremost, my cable is 1.5 sq. mm. solid core flat twin
    and earth - you know, the stiff stuff they use for wiring houses.
    
    I'll tell you how it came about.  Like you, I had heard lots of
    things about magic being wrought by cables whose prices range from
    ludicrous to incredible.  I had also heard that solid core mains
    cable was a remarkably cost-effective alternative so I decided to
    try this, not because I expected a fantastic improvement but because
    I was curious about whether I would actually hear any difference.
    
    So I invested a fiver, swapped out the 49-strand that Reading Hifi
    had given me, and listened.  Lo and behold, clearer, more open treble
    and deeper, firmer bass.  QED.
    
    You'll have to find somebody else to tell you whether "proper" speaker
    cables are worth the astronomical prices charged.  I'm not curious
    enough (or is it too mean?) to find out.
    
    Dave M.

I bought some of the ludicrously expensive n million strand cable, and found the
only way I could connect it into a 4-way speaker junction box, was to pare the
ends down to n/2 million strands. Presumably I have now lost the benefit of the
full n million strands ????

    When these "super cables" first came out I wondered if part of the
    "improvement" in sound which some people claimed was due to
    instability and ringing produced in the power amp due their 
    impedance characteristics.  I wonder if a system should sound
    "good" or perhaps like the "original" sound.
    
    In any case there is no point investing in good speaker cable
    without upgrading your mains plugs.  Gold plated pins are a
    must according to some "experts".
    
    Alan.   (Cynical ex analogue designer)
    
    

    I notice from the US Audio conference that a manufacturer
    is now advertising solder especially made for audio
    connections, which of course you must use with your 100
    strand cable!
    
    Calvin
    

    
    Funny how one of the (seemingly [lest I start a rathole!]) least
    important things in a system gives such quick replies!
    
    I started out with just 5A mains cable on my system, as it was cheap.
    For the first two years, I also lived without speaker stands.
    
    I bought my cable (QED 79 strand at 79p/metre) and Stands (Linn
    Index) August last year. If I wanted to quantify the difference,
    I'd say that the stands were far more important, although the cable
    did make a difference. I certainly would go no more expensive than
    �2/metre.
    
    The one important thing to stress, is that it won't necessarily
    make a bad system good.
    
    I can't think of a specific reason why solid core should be any
    different. Any electronics experts out there ??
    
    Mark.

    > I can't think of a specific reason why solid core should be any
    > different. Any electronics experts out there ??

    Well, back in my studying days, I learnt that high frequency signals
    travel down the outside of a wire, rather than through the centre.
    It would therefore make sense to assume that for an equivalent cross-
    section of copper, a multistrand cable will offer less resistance
    to high frequencies than a solid one.  Though at audio frequencies,
    it probably doesn't make much difference.  Anyone with access to
    the necessary scientific equipment care to make some measurements?
    
    Jeff.

    Gentlemen, lets add some simple Ohms and Watts law to the discussion:-
    
    
    	Consider a 100 W RMS amplifier driving an 8 Ohm Speaker.
    
    
    		Then the current flowing to the speaker is:-
    		
    			  SQRT(100 / 8) = 3.54 Amps	
                
    		And the voltage applied to the speaker is:- 
    
    
    			  SQRT(100 * 8) = 28.28 Volts
                               
    
    		Let us suppose that the total resistance of the speaker
    	wire you use is 1/2 Ohm, then with 3.54 amps flowing the volt
    	drop will be :- 3.54/2 = 1.77 Volts.
    
    		So the voltage actually applied to the speaker will
    	be 28.28 - 1.77 = 26.51 volts and the power delivered will
    	be (26.51 * 26.51)/8 = 87.85 watts. So 12.15 watts are lost
    	in the wire.            
    
    
    		So if we were to define that a maximum of 1 watt
    	is to get lost in the wire then with 3.54 amp flowing then the 
    	resistance of the wire should be less than:-
    
    
    			1/(3.54 * 3.54) = 0.0798 Ohms
    
    
    		In reality this means that the wire from the amp
    	to the speaker must have resistance less than 0.0399 ohms,
    	and, obviously, the return wire must also have resistance
    	less than 0.0399 ohms. By the way, this resistance includes
    	resistive losses in the connectors at the amplifier and
    	the speaker. So the resistance of the wire should be less
    	than this to account for the contact resistance of the
    	connectors. 
    
    		Clearly, these are low resistances, hence the 
    	belief that large cables are good. 
    
    
    		Now consider that the wire to the speaker is 20
    	feet long, sorry, 6 Metres long then the resistance per
    	cm is to be less than 6.65 e - 3 ohm per metre. Very 
        roughly this means a copper wire with diameter no less
    	than 8 mm. OK!
    
    
    
    					Ken Smith 
    
    
    					CSS Solent
    

    re .8....
    
    I agree your maths shows thick cables to be more efficient, but
    8mm diameter? How did you get that figure (I can't remember how
    to calculate things like that)? Shouldn't it be 8 sq. mm cross-
    sectional area?
    
    Also Ohm's Law doesn't explain why cables sound different. Efficiency
    is just part of it, and probably many cables with the same efficiency
    sound different; someone else is probably figuring a different
    set of numbers right now, proving that the difference between the
    efficiency of the cable you describe, and that of thin 5-strand
    bell wire, shouldn't make an audible difference. The demonstrable
    fact that bell wire can't cut it as speaker cable seems to elude
    a lot of users, never mind retailers. 
    
    Lots of things affect a cable's sound, like copper purity, # of 
    strands/conductor, conductor spacing, insulation material and 
    termination quality, not to mention directionality. Many of these 
    can't be explained by Ohm's Law, and there's a few that aren't 
    explained by any classical electronic theory - at least how most
    of us understand them.
    
    Dave

    OK - here's another question.  Should both speaker cables be the
    same length?  One of my speakers is directly below my equipment,
    and being the mean sort I am, I'd like to economise on any jumbo
    cable I might buy.
    
    Jeff.

    re .10....
    
    Yes, speaker cables should be the same length. Don't coil the slack,
    but fold it or create random loops behind furniture, etc.
    
    >"One of my speakers is directly below my equipment,"
    
    You mean you don't have stands (shock, horror)?
    
    Dave
    

    >> "One of my speakers is directly below my equipment,"
    
    > You mean you don't have stands (shock, horror)?

    I mean that my equipment is on shelves half way up the wall.  My
    speakers are on speaker stands on the floor.  The National Grid
    Reference of my left speaker is roughly the same as that of my
    equipment.  Therefore, the distance from my equipment to my left
    speaker is less than that to my right speaker.
    
    I hope that's a little clearer :-)
    
    Jeff.

    >" -< 3m of cable could buy me a meal! >-"
    
    Uh? 3 x 79p (QED 45-strand)=�2.37. Where can you eat for that? Oh
    of course. You Reading Deccies have a subsidised restaurant ;-)
    
    You mean to say food's more important than hifi? Aw, come on :-)
    
    I still say same lengths is best.
    
    Dave

    With all this discussion about types, size, length, colour (?) of cable
    feeding your speakers does it really matter when the cable in the amp
    from the PCB to the output connections, and the cable in the speaker
    enclosures from the connections to the crossover and speakers is
    probably yer ordinary thin multi stranded type?. 

    Or can anybody prove me wrong by saying that their amp/speaker
    has super special wire?.
    
    Richard.
    

    A good question and I'll try to answer it.
    
    Firstly the amp. There's no doubt that good quality cable inside
    an amp can affect its sound; I tried replacing the bits from the
    PCB to the output connectors on my old Technics with QED 79 strand
    and it was like a different amp, even though the pieces used were
    only 3-4 inches long. But other things around wiring affect an amp's
    performance far more (apart from the circuit design), like topology;
    connecting the Technics' speaker return direct to the mains transformer
    centre-tap instead of back to the PCB affected performance more
    than the new wire on its own. Good wire won't make bad amp good,
    just different.
    
    Now the speakers. I tried the same experiment on an old pair of
    Castle Kendals, again it was an inprovement, but not as big as when
    I routed each drive unit's return individually, as opposed to via the
    crossover PCB, back to the return terminal, and soldering connections
    as opposed to faston tabs. As with amps, other things affect a
    speaker's performance more than its wiring, but the effects of wiring
    can be heard.
    
    It's the length that's significant; cable lengths inside boxes is
    trivial compared to amp-to-speaker lengths, so the internal ones have 
    a small effect compared to the external ones. The effect is there
    to hear if you care to poke around with a soldering iron, but you
    won't turn a Binatone/Amstrad pseudo hifi into hifi.
    
    So the answer to your question is yes and no. Yes, if the rest of
    the system components are of a reasonable standard and properly
    installed (and that's another can of worms), then choosing a better 
    speaker cable will bring benefits proportional to that. No, if the 
    system is of questionable quality hifi-wise, or just thrown into the 
    room, don't waste your money on anything better than 5 amp lighting flex.

    Dave

    .8
    
    Ohm's Law is not a lot of use, you need Maxwell's equations.  Ohm's
    law works fine for DC, it doesn't work too well for AC and the
    distortions in cable for what amounts to white noise aren't even
    touched upon by it.
    

    start with Maxwell's equations, add in the necessary for inductance
    and capacitance of copper strands.  Determine the effects of mains
    EM fields and then try to decide what cables do the least damage
    to the signal.  Intuitively, that is thick, solid core and shielded
    cables.  Intuition is often wrong ... look at relativity.
    
    								jch

    > Uh? 3 x 79p (QED 45-strand)=�2.37.
    
    The cable someone was buying in B&B Hi Fi Newbury was �1.95 a metre.
    �5.85 would buy me a decent pizza :-)
    
    BTW, the cable was pretty thick, and separated by plastic (bit like
    600 ohm flat ribbon), so I assume it has a fixed impedance.
    
    Jeff.

    re .17>
    
    �1.95/metre isn't too bad, sounds like Naim, Exposure or Linn cable
    from your description. Any of those are worth every penny.
    
    Some cable can cost over �20/metre, don't ask me how they justify
    *that*.
    
    Dave
    

>        Some cable can cost over �20/metre, don't ask me how they justify
>    *that*.
    
    Sometimes things sound better if you shell out a lot of money on
    them.  Monster cable was one such, for my ears anyway.
    
    								jch

    If you are particularly concerned with the resistance of speaker
    cable, one can get much lower resistances than huge "Monster Cable"
    by using 18 guage (lamp cord, here in the US) wire.  Solder the
    two leads of 18 guage wire together at both ends and use one such
    wire the plus lead of one speaker, and a second for the minus (two
    more for the other speaker...).  This parallel set up will effectively
    halve the wire's resistance.  There is a company that produces flat
    four-lead wire (two for plus, two for minus), tho I don't know who
    that is.
    
    However, I still have no idea if it will sound any better.
    

.19>     Sometimes things sound better if you shell out a lot of money on
.19>     them.  Monster cable was one such, for my ears anyway.

    I've some 1-amp bell wire I can sell you.  I will charge you �30 a
    metre for it, so it will sound even better than your Monster cable!	:-)

    -Les.

    .21, I'm not the dream customer, I'm too cynical to buy Monster
         cable!

    OK...since I wrote .0 here's an update.
                         
    So I read all the entries in this note. So I came to the conclusion
    that bigger cable was probably a good move. So I looked at normal
    electric cable and at QED 42/79. So I juggled my own cynicism with
    what everyone was telling me and compared costs and aesthetics of
    the various options. So I bought some B&B HiFi (own brand) 79 strand
    cable in Newbury and connected it up (bare wire to speaker terminals
    and banana plugs to amp). So I powered up and ran some disks
    through.
       
    So I'm converted.
       
    Dramatic improvement in the stereo imagery and the "sound stage"
    appears to be significantly more 3D. The bass in particular is tighter
    but all the instruments have benefited and sound more "full".
       
    The improvement is almost as much as when I replaced my old Warfedales
    with the Mission. And for less than 10 pounds (12 Meters @77p/M).
       
    Now, how do I tie a reef knot.....
       
    cheers
    alf   

    Re: .23  I bought some of the same cable from the same place (B&B
    Newbury) at the weekend, and I too was amazed by the improvement.
    
    Mind you, I've only heard half the improvement so far - one of my
    KEF speakers died and is in for repair (they tell me it's the crossover
    unit), and they lent me a pair of crappy bottom-of-the-range Marantz
    speakers to tide me over :-(.  The loan speakers even have permanently
    connected bell-wire type cable coming out through a hole in the
    back!
    
    Jeff.

   Speaker cables might be important but let's not forget interconnects.

 I upgraded my cheap 'n nasty piece of wire that came supplied with my Technics
CD player with some QED Icon P1 Gold at the weekend. All that I can say is that
you wouldn't know it was the same system. The bass was greatly extended with
much better control, while the top was a little less sharp. The only minus
point is that the sound stage was a touch more shut in, but not to any great 
extent.

  But be careful then connecting the wire as many cables such as QED Icon are
directional and in your haste to add your new purchase to your system your bound
to put it on the wrong way. I did, and the result was not very kind to the ol'
lugs.


Steve. 

    Re: .25 Are we talking audio cables?  The ones with red and black
    phono-plugs on each end?  If so, I'd like to hear more, like what
    is available, and why are they directional?  Unless they're not
    just bits of wire.
    
    Jeff.

>    Re: .25 Are we talking audio cables?  The ones with red and black
>    phono-plugs on each end?  If so, I'd like to hear more, like what
>    is available, and why are they directional?  Unless they're not
>    just bits of wire.
    


   Yep, you've got it in one! The cables are the connection between the
source component and the amplifier, and in this case I'm talking about line
level connections ie CD, Tape & Tuner.

   I shall briefly describe (unlike Mr. Bright, he must spend all day typing in
his notes!) the construction of the QED Icon cable.

   The first thing to note is that the phono plugs at the end of the cable are
gold plated, this is to reduce contact resitance. The other visual feature is
that the lead is actually made up of 2 cables, one each for the L & R channels,
of 4mm diameter. Inside each of these cables are two balanced conductors of
OFHC copper (I'll explain later), whether these are solid core or multistrand
I don't know.
   The directionality of the cable comes from the type of copper used in the
conductors, in this case OFHC (Oxygen Free High Conductivity) copper. The
process of making this copper involves growing crystals of copper which are
much larger than those found normally and therefore there are less crystal
boundaries for the little electrons to cross, which gives a lower noise floor
and greater conductivity. This process of growing larger crystals produces a
conductor where the electrical properites vary according to the direction of
the cable ie whether the electorons are travelling along in the direction of
the crystal growth or not. If the electrons are opposing the crystal growth
direction then the above advantages (low noise & better conduction) disappear
and may infact become worse.

  As for the other cables on the market, try a quick look through the back of
Hi-Fi Choice.


Steve.

    You know, 
    
    I've been trying for ages to get to grips with this "directionality"
    of cables.
    
    Now, I think you will agree, music signals are AC - that is they
    change plarity on each half cycle. Now, I know that they are not
    symetrical - unless you are listening to a single note of a flute
    stop on an organ (almost a sine wave), but who can say which way
    round is the right way round? ( and let's not get into the absolute
    phase argument just yet - with multiple phase inversions possible
    in the studio between different instrument groups)                   
                                                                         
    As I understand it, the effect is supposed to be caused by the       
    rectification effect that occurs at crystal interfaces in the wire,  
    which form diodes, the direction of which depends on the end from    
    which the cable way drawn from the bar. (which end is the cathode    
    - the pulling end or the bar end?).                                  
                                                                         
    the thing that gets me is that the vast majority of recordings are   
    mixed on an analogue mixer, so the signal has been through miles     
    and miles of ordinary 7/0.2 copper cable, PCB track, Op-amps galore  
    etc etc.                                                             
                                                                         
    I cannot see that a few centimetres more between Player and Pre-amp  
    can make any real difference to the FIDELITY of the reproduction.    
    Which is not to say it won't sound DIFFERENT.                        
                                                                         
    Anyone have any views/experiences?
    
    Dave                                                                     
   
    

    	Re .28 and .29
    This sounds to me like the Polish diode.
    
    It conducts both ways in one direction and neither way in the other
    direction.
    
    Er.....hmmmmmmmmm.
    
    cheers,
    Barry in Masachussetts.
    

    I really have a problem believing that there is any difference at
    all in which way round a cable is connected. Sorry to sound so cynical,
    but it sounds much more like a marketing ploy to me.
    
    Keith

 Well, who would believe that twisting a LP12 belt would make a difference
or even following PWB methods? But the fact is they do!! 

    re .32....
    
    I can relate to how you feel, Keith. I come from a traditional
    electronics background and the theory as I was taught it says all
    this directionality business is bunkum.
    
    But the fact remains that there are things you can do in a hifi
    system which can affect the sound, yet are not revealed by conventional
    testing and analysis, and cable directionality is just one worm
    in a very large heavily populated can.
    
    Dave (who's as confused as you but has learnt to trust his ears
    and is now at peace!)

    I too have difficulty believing the "directionality" of cable, but
    just to be on the safe side, wire it up with the Linn symbol pointing
    to the loud speaker! Could someone please explain why, if it is
    a marketing ploy, the companies talk about the cables directionality.
    What have they to gain ?? (I must be naiive or something)
    
    Mark.
    
    P.S. Could twisting the belt, tighten it, and so give a better speed
    ???

       I've just upgraded my speaker cable from some sort of 79 strand
    to Superflex by Monster Cable.
    
      It's an awesome sight though, the cable contains some 250-300
    strands per conductor (which makes it about 3mm diameter of copper)
    with the two conductors being separated by about 6mm.
    
    
      My initial listening discovered the sound to be much deeper and
    firmer in the bass region but the mid seemed recessed. A wave of
    the soldering iron (to solder the ends up) and the chanting of a
    few sacred words and I was ready.
    
       "LET THE BE MUSIC!", I bellowed
    
    and there was music, beautiful music, the ol' system hadn't sounded
    this sweet in a long time (the best I've heard it when sober, it's
    amazing what a difference a drink can make to the sound of a system!).
    
    
    
    
       One thing to note is that the contruction of this cable gives
    a low capacitance and a high(ish) inductance. These are important
    factors in the sound equation as different values will suit different
    amplifiers and drive units. So try before you buy as even the most
    highly recommended cable could upset your amp/speaker combination.
    
    
    
    Stephen.   

    Remember me?  I'm the guy who said "Bah, humbug - solid core mains
    cable is good enough for my speakers!".  Well, the time has come
    for me to eat those words.
    
    Curiosity finally drove me to invest in some "proper" speaker cable.
    On the advice of my local dealer I chose Mission Cyrus Cable and,
    I have to admit, the improvement is amazing.  I still say the mains
    cable was a lot better than the original stranded stuff but, frankly,
    I didn't know what I was missing.  Words like "openness",
    "transparency", and "imagery" come unbidden to the mind....
    
    Dave M.

    Common practice with the preamp-amp crowd is to put the amp as close
    to the speakers as possible.  You then minimize the length of the
    "lossy" speaker cable (see previous replies).  You run a long (several
    meter) high quality interconnect from your preamp out to the amp
    input.  You need to have a low preamp output impedance, and a high
    (over 50k ohms for transistor amps) amp input impedance.  An added
    benefit is that you can put your signal source away from the speakers,
    minimizing the interactions from the music.
    
    People with LP12's and such should recognize the cable argument
    as corollary to the "turntable (beginning of the signal source)
    is the most important component to get right."  Use the highest
    cable quality you can especially in the beginning od the audio chain.
    
    In the States, people like FMS cable (personal favorite), Monster
    Cable, and MIT cable (Music Hose and Shotguns).  Van den Hul cable
    is also highly regarded, but very expensive here, but may be less
    so in the UK.
    
    You know, all this messing with components is really systems
    engineering!
    

    I just found a speaker cable that beats all of them. Its made from
    a new metal called " Unobtainium". These cables are hand woven in
    caves by left handed Gnomes The secret of these cables is thousands
    of years old handed down from father to son ( always handed down
    usi the left hand only) These cables are only sold to people who
    are believers. I know the American Gnomes make these cables but
    I'm not sure about British Gnomes. 

     Bill                             *  * 
                                        ^
                                       \_/ 

    Hmmm. I must get some of this for my new Mission Impossible
    speakers.
    
    Ian.

    I was in a local electritian at the weeked looking for mains cable
    for my speakers I already have QED 79 strand cable but with this
    cable I cannot get the speakers correctly phased.  Anyway the guy
    in the shop said that mains cable was only woth having on high quality
    Hi-Fi equipment.  My question is would you class this system as
    high qualty?  and would main cable make any difference in sound
    quality?
     
    Sansui AU-G11X amp
    Ariston Q-Deck Turntable
    JVC SEA-11 7 band Graphic Equalizer
    JVC KD-V100 Cassette Deck
    JVC KV 220 Compact Disk Player
    Technics ST-G450L Tuner
    AR 8Ls Bookshelf Loud Speakers on Target Speaker Stands

    Grant
    

    re .41.......
    
    I don't understand how the cable you use will affect the phasing
    of your speakers. Please clarify this.

    In saying that only high quality equipment should use mains cable,
    I take it your friendly electrical retailer means for speaker cable?
    This is basically a load of tosh. Solid core cable can sound dull,
    which means if you have a harsh-sounding system it can be easier
    to live with if you use mains solid-core; but if the system is
    reasonably well matched, as yours seems to be, there's no reason
    why a cable like QED79 shouldn't produce acceptable sounds.
    
    If you can clarify as requested above, we should be able to get
    your existing QED cables working right.
    
    And don't get hung up on whether or not your system is "high quality".
    
    Dave

    re .42.......
    
>>    I don't understand how the cable you use will affect the phasing
>>    of your speakers. Please clarify this.

	If he means phasing in terms of amp+ to speaker+, then the type
	of cable makes no difference.

1.		    Amp
		L	R
	       +-      +-
               !!      !!  
               +-      +-
                 Speakers

	(If the speaker has no markings, then just choose a +&- and
	apply the same methoid to the other speaker. If the CABLE has no
	markings, then you should connect an arbituary core to amp R+ and
	the other to Amp L-. Then follow first stand untill you get to the
	speaker end. Connect to speaker R+. Be consistant with the other
	speaker and youll be in  phase!

	The problems occur when you connect a amp + to a speaker -
        on one channel ie only one speaker can be out of phase. By definition
        if you change one channel around, (doesn't matter which), both will be
        ok!
		Out of Phase

		    Amp
		L	R
	       +-      +-
               !!      !!  
               -+      +-
                 Speakers


		To fix,   or as first shown (1)

		    Amp
		L	R
	       +-      +-
               !!      !!  
               -+      -+
                 Speakers
		 

	As far as I am aware, polarity at the speaker end is not important
	although it may be with some crossovers. Best to get it right just
	in case.

    re .43...
    
    That's what I understand phasing to be, and as you say cable type
    doesn't matter.
    
    Dave
    

    re last few
    
    The reason I mensioned changing the cable was because the QED79
    is not colour coded.  As far as sound goes the sound sounds GREAT
    to me.
    
    Grant

    I have QED 79 strand cable, and it is difficult to get the side's
    right. The first time, I followed the cable all the way through.
    That's pretty tricky!
    
    If you look at the cable closeley, and feel the edge of it, one
    side is slightly grooved. Just make sure it goes to the same colour
    jack on amp & speakers.
    
    Cheers.
    
    Mark.
         

    If you can't see any marking on the cable, here is the easy way to tell
    if the speakers are in phase. Put the two speakers more-or-less facing
    each other a foot or so apart, and play something MONO (or use the mono
    switch on your amp). Put your head between the speakers. If the sound
    appears to come from one mid-point, the speakers are in phase. If the
    sound appears to come separately from each speaker, they are out of
    phase (and thus the connections to ONE speaker should be reversed). A
    few minutes playing around like this and you will see what I mean.
    
    Keith

    Buy yourself a torch bulb and a battery...then use one  strand of the
    speaker wire at each end to make a circuit from the base of the battery
    to the thread of the bulb. Touch the base of the bulb on the top of the
    battery. If the bulb lights, you have the same strand both ends---so
    mark them (with tape?) . If not, change the strand ONE end...bulb will
    then light... mark strands. (if it doesn't work you've got a duff
    bulb/battery!)
                  
    repeat for other side's cable.
                          
    If you have a Car continuity tester, you can use that
        
    Easy, init!
        
    Dave    

    I know this conversation has gone dead, but....
    
    Re .46, the ridge on one of the sides of the cable is the official
    channel marking on QED 79.

    The embossed writing/logo should read left to right, speaker to
    amp.

    No kidding.

    
    I am now using a pair of 4 meters West German made coax speaker cables
    called OCOS. It has better preformance than my previous Monster M1.

    
    So, I am an accountant, and do not really understand most of this.
    
    Someone tell me please, what cable to get.
    
    Mains, solid core, mulitstrand or whatever.? 
    
    Amp is Rotel Ra820a
    Speakers Wharfedale Ritz Diamonds
    
    Current cable is qed c38 - not very good apparently!
    
    
    
    
    juju
    xxxx
    

    I want to connect my mono Televideo upto my stereo amp.  The Televideo 
    has 2 phono sockets at the back (1 for input and 1 for output).
    What I can do is connect the output of the Televideo to the left
    channel of either the AUX or TAPE 2 input on my amp and then switch
    my amp to mono.
    
    I could also do the same with the input of the televideo but connect
    it to the left channel of the TAPE 2 record socket.
    
    This would allow me to watch TV with the sound coming from my amplifier
    rather than the small speaker on the television.  I would also beable
    to record music from VHS video to normal audio tapes OR Record from
    tape,Radio,CD,record deck to upto 8 hours of VHS video.
    
    My only problem is where do I get 15 feet long phono cables?
    
    I have my HiFi on one side of my bed and the TV on the other.  Also
    because of where the power sockets are located in my bedroom I cannot
    bring the TV nearer my HiFi.
    
    Where can I get phono cables that long?
    Would I have to get them specially made?
    Would somewhere like Tandys in the butts centre have what I require?
    
    Thanks in advance for any help
    
    Grant

    re .55....
    
    I do exactly that with my video, except the interconnect is about
    30 ft.
    
    You need any reasonably good audio coax cable, plus the connectors
    for your video/hifi, all of which Tandy should have in stock.
    
    I doubt you'll get them already made up in the length you require.
    If you can't solder (shame on you!) maybe someone in this conference
    who's "local" can help.
    
    It's worth the effort, you won't believe how good TV sound can be
    until you try it.
    
    Dave
    
    

    re-1
    
    Thanks Dave
    
 
    Do you have any idea how much 15ft of audio coax cable is ?
    
    Thanks again
    Grant

    re -.1...
    
    Any more than 4 or 5 pounds would be expensive.
    
    Dave

    RE-1
    
    Well I went to TANDYS today and got 2 lengths of 24ft audio cable
    with PHONO plugs already connected for 4 pounds.
    
    So when I get home tonight it will be just a matter of plugging
    the cables and I will have TV/Video sound coming out of my HiFi
    speakers.
    
    
    Thanks again Dave
    Grant

    re=2 Dave
    
    
    You were right the sound is 1000% better.  Listening to music on
    TV is great it has real bass and does not sound light and tinny.
    
    Grant

    RE: 19.55 by Steven Carpenter
    
    Hello Steven,
    In your intro note, you mention that you are using QED Icon P1 phono
    leads between your CD, amp and cassette deck.
    
    You are using the graphite screened version for the cassette.  Why is
    this?  I'm interested, because I was sent one graphite version when I
    ordered 2 standard P1 Gold cables.
    
    Rob.

    It's a simple answer.
    
    The first cable I had was the P1 Gold which I liked so much I thought
    I'd get some more for my cassette deck. The problem was that all
    the dealers I went to had sold out of P1 Gold so I bought the graphite
    version instead. Since I mostly use the cassette deck for making
    tape for my personal stereo the slight difference in the cables
    is not noticable.
    
    
    Stephen.

    
    Just bought some Mission Loudspeaker cable, set it up and the sound
    appears to be clearer.  However, there are arrows on the cable, and I'm
    not sure if they mean anything or not.
    
    Any thoughts.
    
    Iain

arrows: from amp -> speaker

    Yeah,
    
    The P1-Icon phono leads (see 3-4 replies back) also have signal flow 
    arrows on them.

    Now the proud owner of P1-Icon Gold Interconnects and Mission Cyrus
    solid core speaker cable.  Makes the sound seem less blurred in some
    classical recordsings.
    
    Iain.

    I have a CYRUS TWO with PSX power supply, speaker is KEF C75, input 
    is a ONKYO DX7500 CD player. At the monent, I am using KIMBER 4VS 
    speaker cable, Ven Der Hul D102 mkII interconnect cable.
    
    The bass seen to be no very tight and the high is a bit thin.
    I would like to hear some recommendation for the right type of
    speaker and interconnect cable.
    
    QUESTION :- Which interconnect/speaker cable is best suit for my system
              - Is it true that ready build interconnect cable is better
                than self build ?
              - I would like to build interconnect cable, any
                recommendation  for cable and RCA plugs ?
              - I may try to build a pair of MONSTER M1000 cable, any
                ideas of the right connection ?
    Thanks
    Parry

    For all those people that think 79p/m for QED 79 strand cable is a bit
    over the top, Maplin Electronics (Oxford Road, Reading and elsewhere)
    have '79 strand hi-fi cable' in their catalogue at 48p/m.

    I swear by twin and earth solid core, and that's only around 29p/m
    
    beat that !

Hi,

 Is there anyone here in DECpark that has access to a decent soldering iron, who
can repair a speaker cable or lend me the iron so that I can repair the cable
myself. I attempted this with my own iron but it proved to be too puny for the
job.

 I would like to fix the cable today or by tomorrow evening at the latest.

 If anyone can help please mail me or call me on 830 6646.

  If I have no response this morning I will be taking the cable to reading Hi Fi
at lunch time.



		Thanks

	Barrie.

    If you want expensive looking speaker cable for little money which
    sounds good then I have the answer. Wickes (DIY) now sell External twin
    & earth, like the white and grey stuff BUT this is in *THICK* *BLACK*
    PVC !!!!! wowowowowowowowowowo. #13.00 for around 10M. Also it's
    circular in cross section. Looks like it should cost much more if
    bought from you local Absolute Sounds, with an italian/japanese name.
    
    the only problem I can see is it looks so stiff (!? Oh err missus) that
    you probably wont need any speaker stands at all, the cable will
    support the speaker alone :-)

   >      <<< Note 29.68 by SHAPES::KINGHORNJ "Funtime Software {:o)" >>>
   >                            -< Cheapo cable >-
   >
   > For all those people that think 79p/m for QED 79 strand cable is a bit
   > over the top, Maplin Electronics (Oxford Road, Reading and elsewhere)
   > have '79 strand hi-fi cable' in their catalogue at 48p/m.
   
   ... and it's cheaper in 100m reels. I was contemplating buying about 40m
   over the next few days. If anyone wants any of the remainder at 40p/m
   let me know and I shall go for the 100m.
   
   Dick
   
   (in Decpark, 830-3005 or IOSG::CARLIN)

   In reply to Art's question by mail, there is nothing to suggest that
   this is QED cable.
   
   I bought what I wanted anyway. It seems adequate for my medium-fi needs.
   It's certainly heavy! - my shoulder still aches.
   
   So, sorry, I guess the bargain offer is off.
   
   Dick

I don't want to start a flame war, and I couldn't find an explanation in this
conference, so here goes:

Can anybody give a technical rationale for "directional" speaker cables
and interconnects?  Do electrons waggle better in one direction or is
it all a load of horse?

Thanks,


guy

A sort of "hand-waving" argument

As the wire is created by successive pulling of the metal through smaller and 
smaller holes in diamond dies, there are a number of microscopic stress 
effects on the wire. These are in addition to any crystal domain effects.
Essentially, there are a (large) number of crystal juntions in the metal
which can have diode type effects.

Dave

Re -.1

Thanks v much, to a non-sparky that sounds quite reasonable.

guy

    I've had a niggling curiousity about whether cables really do make much
    of a difference so when I was in Reading the other week I bought the
    bits to make an interconnect between the cd and the amp (couldn't face
    the money to buy a ready-made one). I bought a set of four gold-plated
    phono plugs by Ixos (�13) from B&B, and pink interconnect cable (dunno
    whether it's a trade name but it's certainly a description) at �2.50/m
    from Reading hi-fi. So yesterday I soldered it all together and
    expectantly plugged it in. This replaced a cheap thin connector.
    
    Result: there is a subtle but pleasing difference. High-frequency sound
    like cymbals is more detailed and sort of smoother sounding. Not a big
    difference but a worthwhile improvement. Think I'll get round to doing
    the same for the tuner and the cassette deck eventually.
    
    
    Rod

    Maplins do much cheaper bits n pieces, and differing cable qualities.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    They do gold-plated phono plugs at �2.20 each. But as of two weeks ago,
    Maplins in Reading didn't have them in stock.
    
    
    Rod

    How 'damaging' to the sound quality is it by joining speaker cable
    together?
    
    Having had a re-org in the living room, I find my speaker cable isn't
    long enough, and I'm wondering what the effect of just buying the extra
    small bits will be?
    
    How much difference will I notice over buying the whole lot again (4
    lengths as I have surround sound for the TV)?
    
    It's not the best system in the world, so if any sound less is minimum,
    it would be better for me and my wallet!!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    For surround speakers it won't make a significant difference.
    
    For main speakers when used with a VCR or TV it won't make a
    significant difference.
    
    For main speakers used in your audio system it will make a difference
    in proportion to the worth of the cable.  (Splicing original monster
    cable together will make less of a difference than splicing Audioquest
    Clear).  But it will make a difference that you can hear.
    
    Ken

Hi Ken,

What about a twisted strands, very hot siver soldered connection with heat 
shrunk sleeving around it?

e.g.

************
************======
************======  ******************
************  ======******************
              ======******************
                    ******************

Just curious.
Done well, and over a long run, I don't understand how it will have a 
significant effect on impedance against a complete cable.

Surely not in the league of bi-wire vs single-pair connections?
Rob.

It is not absolutely clear to me why, joining cables would matter to sound 
quality.  To Ken's point, it is also not clear that a joint would be audible, 
that depends on the system and use and owner's intensity.

I will offer a couple reasons that I do not really understand but expect 
would be offered by those claiming expertise in audiophile wire physics.

Audiophile wire is very high purity copper and is usually annealled. This is 
intended to improve alignment of the copper crystals and reduce small 
diode effects on the signal.   Exposing wire ends, by definition will 
contaminate the copper and joining them will seal the contamination in the 
wire. Some contamination may be flushed away by the solder flux. The heating 
of soldering stresses the copper, undoing the annealing. Compression joints 
will stress the wire less, but does nothing for the contamination.


Thus the joint is not so much an electrical impedance problem as a structural 
problem with the conductor.  You might well imagine how big a mess the 
hundreds of joints inside the average audio component must make of the sound 
in comparison. But that is an aside - maybe some day we will have processes 
to build continuous crystal conductor electronic circuits - but interconnect 
and speaker wire is there.

So,  as Ken said, if you are joining Monster Cable to be used in an average 
to good AV system, you probably wont notice anything. If you are joining a 
couple sets of $1000 per meter speaker cable in a $100000 system you probably 
will - or you will imagine you do - which is just as important.

Walt

    My feelings about the effect of additional joints or connections come
    mainly from experience with my preamp.  It's really a stepped
    attenuator with 4 sets of inputs.  Three of these inputs lead to a very
    short wire to a high quality 3 position switch to a Vishay resistor to
    the output jack.  One of the inputs is direct to output in that it is not
    switched - when a front end device is connected to this input pair the
    signal path is input jack, Vishay, output jack.  
    
    Listening comparisons between switched and direct paths reveals a
    noticeable, and for me, important difference in what I can only
    describe as transparency.  The mechanical difference is about 5 inches
    of wire, 2 solder joints and the switch.
    
    A few years ago I also listened to a pair of decent, but unremarkable,
    speaker wires first bare ended and then with spades I crimped on
    myself, poorly no doubt.  I remember liking the bare ended wire better.
    
    Ken