Conference 7.286::digital

    There was a lot of excitment about this business in yesterday's
    Cafe talk.  I 'mis-heard' a word from Jay Atlas that surprised
    me.....he was describing the simplified sales approach with these
    'desktop' systems (he almost never called them PCs), and he said
    that there will be no discounts...they will all be sold at the
    straight price....I thought he said 'at the street price'.
    (or did he really say street price?  I couldn't believe it)

    Ken basically defended being in this business for two reasons.
    the first, and the one he claims to only admit to under his breath,
    is to prove to the world we can do it.  The other, and the one
    I strongly support, is that the things that you have to do to be
    competitive in this market are the SAME as the things we need to
    do in all the rest of the company to stay profitable.  He did not
    say we were going to make a pile of money.  I hope we dont lose
    our shirt.

    I went through a similar exercise for our school...what to buy.
    In last place was buying a PC from IBM....about tied was to buy
    one from DEC.  It was quite enlightening being courted by both
    Sales orgs.  Above that was to buy a PC from one of the
    compatible companies.  Buying a Mac was the clear winner.

    I really have no idea why someone would buy a PC from Digital.
    bob

    I'm afraid that a whole mess of people have no idea why they should
    by a PC from Digital.  

In my office (a sales office) the following has occured
since January 13th.

1)  I know of NO REP that hasn't talked to their customers
	about PCs
2)  At least 25% of those customers have bought PCs from
	us since January 13th
3)  Most are happy.

The following is a result of this

1)  The field is starting to believe in PCs..after 10 years!!!
2)  Our customers are starting to believe that we are real in PCs
	after 2 misses!!!!

To the base note about our prices being high...

Unfortunately, you are looking at our one week spot.  Our 33 MHz 486s are
premium configs.  If you looked at the 433 workstation that is a high end
CAD system, not a run of the mill PC.  AutoCAD users love it and, according
to our local PC guy) are snapping them up at 6k.  The new starburst systems
are high end servers.

We need a 33 MHz low end 486, we just don't have one now.

If you look anywhere else, we are quite competitive.

Our notebooks are GREAT!!! our 386 and 25 MHz 486 are priced right.

I bought a PC about 6 months ago from a store front in NH where they bolt
their own together.  This company's price is still about 10-15% below ours
but they will always be.  My customers will not buy from them..they want
to buy from someone like us and they will pay the 10 - 15% premium.  This 
company could not compete with our employee purchase prices today.

Jay Atlas stated that we had our first $1 million dollar day recently, so 
many people want to buy from us.

Ken Slattery

    ... they should buy a PC from Digital."
    
    'scuse me, but didn't PCSG and the folks who sell PC's just provide
    some of the few lines in last quarter that WEREN'T written in red?
    
    Not that we can't and shouldn't do better, of course, but credit where
    it's due and all that, I say...
    

    I have had a very difficult time getting a PC for a voice recognition
    system for an employee with an injury and a "doctor's perscription" and
    a health services endorsement.  It is taking an act of congress and a
    papal blessing because the PCs are on critical allocation.

    We just sold five PCs to Los Alamos Labs. It was on TV with the DEC
    sales rep. and the Los Alamos rep. shaking hands, and Sen. Domenici
    giving a little spiel about how wonderful all this was for the
    future of American business.
    There is never this sort of publicity when we sell a DECstation or
    a VAX.
    
    Possibly Intel had something to do with getting this publicity,
    since the partnership was mentioned.
    

    I heard him say "street price".
    
    Upcoming new EPP deal was also mentioned, including interest-free
    payroll deductions over two years to pay for it.  Full announcement
    in May.  Of course that does you no good if they are on allocation...

    There's more than one model for PC sales.
    
    The current products are buyouts.  We pay Tandy a deep discount from
    thier MLP (M=manufacturer), and mark it up to our net price.  The Intel
    box has no MLP but we still pay them something under our price.  Our
    old "5 to 1" markup rule (designed for minis) obviously doens't hold
    for buyouts, but like any retailer, there's room for a margin.
    
    If we build in-house (Jim Liu's new job, using Taiwan), we can still
    buy the components from the same miscellaneous vendors as the garage
    shops, only we'll probably have stricter Q.C. standards.  It takes
    decent volumes to warrant this, but we're presumably at that stage.
    
    I'm not sure that Digital's PCs really offer the key value added that I
    (as a PC user) see the market needing:  They're a serious pain to
    "integrate".  Becuse Messy-DOS (including its cousin Windows, though
    not the futuristic NT or here-and-now IBM OS/2) is stuck living in the
    640k "real mode" limit of the 8086, it's tricky to shuffle memory
    addresses of all the peripherals, drivers and TSRs and still have
    enough memory to run applications.  SCSI in and of itself is a serious
    pain (DOS doesn't know about it).  Ethernet' a minor pain.  They along
    with VGA eat memory.  PathWorks is horrible for memory (as are most
    networks).  If we came up with some specific hardware options (type x
    VGA board, type y SCSI, etc.) that we guaranteed would give "optimal"
    address-space use, and factory-configured them, complete with
    factory-installed DOS and maybe QEMM (since it's largely a software
    "memory manager" issue) and PathWorks (or Novell, or whatever the
    customers want), we'd have a real added value.  I'm not sure we've got
    it yet.

                      <<< Note 1855.2 by PBST::LENNARD >>>

>    I'm afraid that a whole mess of people have no idea why they should
>    by a PC from Digital.  
    
    Someone must be buying them.  We're in the black.
    
     It never ceases to amaze me that we have such a large contingent of 
    armchair marketeers and industry analysts who work for DEC.  We've
    managed to be profitable selling PCs manufactured by an external
    source.  We have an aggressive plan to build entry level desktop
    systems internally to sell at Dell and AST-like prices.  We're
    venturing into the catalogue sales business to further reduce the cost of 
    sales.  To the best of my knowledge, we've never tried this.
    
    We've got aggessive AD work going on in areas such as mobile computing,
    multi-media, local bus peripheral controllers that could potentially
    give us world class graphics on a desktop system, and portables.  We're
    learning how to make these puppies for less money.
    
    We have a long way to go, particularly in the areas of marketing and
    sales.  But we've got a plan to get there.  I'm the world's biggest PC 
    cynic.  I've got a Mac and and NEC at home.  
    
    Having said that, I'm very encouraged regarding our chances in the PC
    business. 
    
    Mark.

    re: .6
    
    D*mn straight!  The market for these machines (and the starburst) must
    be good if a national lab buys the first 5 sight unseen (being built in
    New Mexico helped :) when other efforts we're less than
    enthusiastically accepted.  It's a great feeling to tell the SUN and HP
    bigots I work with that the head of the lab has a DEC PC sitting in his
    office.
    
    --- Gavin

    Digital's PC business is the starting point at how the rest of our business
    needs to be done in the 1990's.  Street Pricing means no discounts, PAC
    proceedures, allowances, etc.. the prices change every week with
    price on the street.  Why would any one want to buy a PC from Digital
    call 1-800-PCBYDEC and find out!!  Great price and 1 year on site
    service. I expect Worksystems and servers will be next.
    

       As soon as the EPP payroll plan starts I will be buying one. I've
    been holding out for us to do something like this and it's finally
    happened. Call the folks at PCBYDEC and get a catalog, I did.
                                     Denny

    reference to last few notes-
    	If you guys are blaring your collective trumpets , how come you are
    about 2 years too late. PCs have taken off in th past 2 years and DEC
    was still touting the Vaxmate. The propensity is/was a day late and a
    dollar short. 

re .-1
>    		....Why would any one want to buy a PC from Digital
>    call 1-800-PCBYDEC and find out!!  Great price and 1 year on site
>    service. I expect Worksystems and servers will be next.
    
    Excuse me?  Did I miss something here?  Great price?  
    
    Everyone offers 1 year on site service.  Please reread my .0 and
    explain to me how $5000 for a $2500 system equals a great price.
    
    Oh, I get it!  Great price if you're *SELLING* them, not *BUYING* them.
    
    Silly me.
    
    Larry

    re .-1
    
    Larry, maybe you're dialing the wrong number?  I just worked with a
    customer last month on getting a few 386/486 PCs, told him about our
    new PCBYDEC pricing.  He was skeptical, so I told him to call PCBYDEC,
    right then while I was sitting there.  He did, and the PCBYDEC price
    for a DS425 system was $150 cheaper than the equivalent configuration
    for a Dell or Compuadd 386/33!  He placed the order on the spot.
    
    Jon

    Why are we trying to be in the PC business?  
    
    Because if we aren't at least present on the desktop, we don't 
    have the opportunity to sell anything else ... like software, 
    services, servers, intergalactic enterprise management ... etc.  
    The world has "moved on" (any Stephen King fans out there? :-) )
    to PCs as the prevalent style of computing; we need to be part of 
    that if we're going to stay in business at all.  Or else we need 
    to think about being a $? billion (...or $??? million) company.
    
    We need a piece and we need to figure out how to get it (which I think 
    we're doing) without losing our shirts in the process.  
    
    -j
    
        

    I'm excited by PC pricing in the last few months as my account has
    started to place orders (where it was a tough sell before) in
    significant numbers.  Also as we are now being considered as major players
    we are getting opportunities on the big buys (we were generally shut
    out before).

    RE: COST OF SALES

    I'm not sure how we allocate costs but I'm sure the direct sales folks
    are not getting their cost burdens transferred to PCBYDEC channel. 
    What I mean is that the direct sales folks are penalized if they take
    the order directly (yet the activity costs have been incurred) so they
    have the client place the order over the phone.  PCBYDEC does not pick
    up the accurate cost on how much it took to make that sale.  Therefore
    management does not know how successful (profitable) we really are as
    the proper costing has not followed the sale.  While the processing
    costs are certainly lower sales costs could be higher than they think. 
    
    John

    The new Digital Tiger PCs (made in Taiwan) are very competitive,
    even in the Asian market. Now i'm coming in from Asia, and i 
    assume we also sell them in the States ?
    
    I just spent some time last week getting a customer to switch from 
    an order of 60 compatibles (386SX) to our Tiger PCs. He found ours
    very well priced, and coming from a big player, gave us the order.
    
    Hong Kong sales closed a sale last month for 15,000 units to a local
    university.
    
    And performance, a large gov potential here spent abt 2-3 weeks doing
    tests on various compatibles, and came to the conclusion that the 
    Tiger PC SX was the best of the lot from terms of price/performance,
    even outperforming some competitive 386DX's along the way. They just
    gave us an order for 227 units couple days back.
    
    We must be going something right i reckon, and i think we are finally
    getting into that PC groove that we've been missing since the days of
    the Robins and the Rainbows.
    
    Rgds, Mike
    

>   The new Digital Tiger PCs (made in Taiwan) are very competitive,
>   even in the Asian market. Now i'm coming in from Asia, and i 
>   assume we also sell them in the States ?

           Is this the PC that was also planned to be manufactured in the
           states (if they couldn't build 'em fast enought off-shore)?
           Anyone know where?
           
           Steve

    	Springfield Ma. facility is currently doing some TIGER work.
    

     
                     <<< Note 1855.13 by EJOVAX::JFARLEY >>>
    > 	If you guys are blaring your collective trumpets , how come you are
    >    about 2 years too late. PCs have taken off in th past 2 years and DEC
    > was still touting the Vaxmate. The propensity is/was a day late and a
    > dollar short. 
    
    Would you rather we ignore a market that some industry analysts are
    predicting could reach $85 Billion by 1996?  Heck, IBM is the market
    leader with only 10-11% percent of the market share.  Digital has
    finally climbed out of the the "Other" category on the market share pie
    charts (~1.5%).
    

    
    Mark.

    
    
    	Folks should also realize that all of DEC is not asleep.  DEC not
    only sells the Tandy/DEC PC but we are now and have been selling 3rd
    party PC's for a while.  Here in Springfield Mass, we do a lot of 3rd
    party configuration to what the customer requests.  We are shipping not
    only the DEC 433 workstations, but are also configuring PC's from 
    REPLY (started by some ex-IBM people) and AST.  We are also looking
    into adding to that base.  I've heard that ZEOS will be added along
    with some others.  And yes, we will be doing the Tiger's too.  
    
    	Although I not real close to the Tiger operation, let's just say
    that it will be VERY competitive price wise.  I'm not going to list the
    price here, but it's nowhere near the 5k stuff we now sell as DEC PC's.
    
    	Believe it or not, DEC is selling a lot of DEC/Tandy PC's plus
    a bunch of 3rd party PC's that are configured with any number of
    options.  If you want Segate drives, that can be installed.  If you
    want certain monitors, that can be added too.  Of course we don't offer
    every PC option (there are over 75K PC options available), but we're
    trying to meet the needs of the customer by giving them what they want
    at a competitive price.
    
    
    								bill

    
    Another thing I forgot to mention is the issue of maintenance.
    
    The customer that we swung away from compatibles to the DEC Tiger PC,
    who gave us the 60 unit order, was really looking for peace of mind. 
    Was a fairly small shop that is growing fast, He's an accountant. 
    Fairly technical, but when he started looking at PCs and then LAN 
    integration, and maintenance, etc, he soon came to the conclusion 
    that he would get in over he head. Rather than running the risk of 
    maybe messing up along the way, he goes for peace of mind with a big 
    player like DEC. (Since we come close to the prices of the compatibles 
    anyhow).
    
    Well since he's looking for peace of mind, we got back to him, with the
    offer of a maintenance contract. Not just for our PCs, but all the PCs
    and PC software he has in there. He's really exicited abt it and we
    should get the deal. 
    
    We are also in the process of closing off another maintenance contract
    along a similar line, in an account that we had low penetration prior
    to this, for maintenance of 2500 PC units. We didn't sell any of them,
    but so what, we get the services, and the start of account control.
    
    I'd suggest this is an excellent way to implement account control. Our 
    new focus as a company is towards services, rather than box sales. I'd 
    agree PCs are low revenue generating items, but they sit on everyones 
    desktop, and are excellent publicity. With the increasing emergence of
    the client server model, we are just going to see more and more of
    this.
    
    One other issue, one of the notes along the way here took a crack at
    Pathworks. Sure its been the butt of many jokes along the way, but I
    sincerely feel its starting to come into it own. Pathworks sales are
    much easier today than back 5 years ago when we first started, and I'd
    willingly take on a head to head technical confrontation with Novell 
    anyday in a sales situation (something I would have cringed at doing
    a couple of years back). We may win, we may loose, but we'd sure as 
    hell stand a good chance. 
    
    The memory issue of Pathworks is really a non issue. I have managed
    to get 628K out of 640K conventional memory free with all Pathworks
    components and DOS v5.0 running, with the DEPCA card configured in 
    32K buffer mode. And that was just thru fooling around one night. I
    understand that technically it can go even lower than that.
    
    I think we're at an interesting point of our company's life. Technically 
    I believe we have better products today than ever before. And with the
    ALPHA things are going to get even more exciting. However from From a 
    mngt and financial angle we are on a down swing. If we can get our act
    together (which is of course where the NMS organizational structure is
    trying to get us), I believe Digital will truely be back out on top
    again.
    
    Rgds, Mike

    
    	Albuquerque is building the 486-25/33/50Mhz tower units.
    	/john

    OK, fine, so we appear to be actually selling PC's bigtime for the
    first time.  The operative question is......are we making any money?

    Even if we don't make lots of money, there's goodness in building
    and expanding market share if we can later leverage that market share.
    I know it's leveragable on the software side, but I'm not so sure how 
    leveragable it is on the hardware side given it's a commodity market.
    Maybe putting all that hardware out will create a services opportunity,
    but at our current rates I suspect customers won't rush to avail
    themselves of them. What am I missing here????
    
    Fred
    
    

    Yeah, butr for a company that gives all indications of thinking that
    planning for next month is Long Range, can we build market share,
    and handle the lower profits with the understanding that this will do
    us good in the long run...
    
    q
    

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    Hey, you  have  a telephone system that you want to change/expand.  You
    picks  up your handset, and it says NEC on it.  Who cares if the switch
    is  Rolm  or  AT&T,  you  will remember the nifty handset you got, even
    though the smarts in the back room. Who would you call first?

Up to recently I wondered why we are trying to get in the PC business
('thought the time of the Intel-/MS-crap is over  :^)
but, if this now huge market is really still rising that high,

FIRST QUESTION: why there's no campaign like:
Digital sells PC's 10 percent UNDER street price for, say, one year?
(hopefully generating REAL *VOLUME*)

A second question: Larry (Rogers,  .0) writes:
>One of the good things about my experience at Digital has been that I've 
>always had access to good computers for my own use.

I WAS interested to buy Digital products (here in Germany), but:
-) the "Christmas Special (PC's only)" offered some 10 percent OVER
   street prices (please note: the prices *included* employee reductions!)
-) there's no "general mechanism": interested in a MIPSbased DECstation
   (at a REAL affordable price!) I tried more than once/one way, even
   our socalled marketing - it always was a shot in the dark; so:

SECOND QUESTION: is there an international employee purchase program?
			(with really affordable prices, hopefully)
Thanks in advance!
Uli

    I believe the 400st is built by Intel (mostly) and final assembly in
    Albuquerque... (Starburst)
    
    Too bad we were so short on notice for the announcement in
    Albuquerque...only had one FAB manager from Rio Rancho....
    
    Glad to see Sen. Pete Domenici there with Larry Holmberg, the local
    dist...er....(oops...NMS)  Group Manager.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Gil
    

    I went to a bookstore last night, and picked up a COMPUTER SHOPPER.
    That big horse-choker PC ad magazine.  They musta sold five of them
    in the time I was in the store.  Page after page of PC ads, 
    I was looking forward to seeing the latest DEC ads and prices.
    NADA.  NOTHING. NO-SHOW.   Not a word from or about DEC.
    ZEOS, DELL, GATEWAY 2000...No DEC.
    
    Anyone care to explain to me why DEC isn't putting ads in the most
    popular PC magazine around if they're serious about competing?
    
    Mark

    re .31
    
    Well, I picked up a COMPUTER SHOPPER a couple of weeks ago (probably
    April) and there was a 4 page Digital ad in it.  Of course the only 486
    listed was $4999.
    
    Ken
    

    Well, May doesn't.  I didn't go page-by-page, but DEC isn't
    in the advertiser's index.  I know I've seen the ads in other
    publications.  I wonder why they missed this one?
    
    Mark

    Instead of looking in the advertiser's index under "Digital," you might
    try "Desktop Direct from Digital."  I recall seeing that entry for a
    4-page ad in the April issue of PC Magazine.
    
    /Ed

    Nope.  Just looked.  
    
    Mark

    Maybe they decided that our prices, while not nearly as high as they
    used to be, don't look good next to Touch� (the ones with "Gatebusters"
    T-shirts), Syntax or the other "tier 4" vendors who dominate the
    Shopper.  Right now their "street price" for a 386/25 with 80M HD, SVGA
    and 2M is around $1200.

    ...and PC-USA who has the same config. you mentioned but with
    only a 40M hard drive for $999.  Cheapest I've seen.
    
    Mark

Digital did have a four-page spread in the April issue, but no ad in May.

In that April ad, we appeared way out of line in both price (much higher
than anybody else) and choice of configuration (no 366 DX systems).  We
didn't look competitive.  Too bad!

    
    	Some of my PC friends along with myself, prefer _PC Sources_ and we 
    have an ad in there.  There is also an ad in _PC Magazine_.

    Speaking of Advertising, I proudly pointed out the two page ads for
    PAthworks, in Mac Week to an Apple Devo friend. He pointed out that the
    adverts were absolutely content free. Didn't say anything of
    significance about anything...
    
    q
    

    Does anyone know if the client pricing for Pathworks for the Macintosh
    is going to change?  My client has a real emnity to paying ~$200+ for
    each Macintosh requiring basic file and print services when the same
    functionality on a UNIX box now comes out at $20 per client.
    
    It's great that you get additional software with the client license,
    but a "no-frills" clinet license would also be nice.
    
    --- Gavin

    I just recv'd brochure for the Desktop Direct from Digital.
    
    Here's the price:
    
    DECpc 316sx 				
    
    386sx 16 Mhz
    2 Meg mem
    52 MB 
    3.5" 1.44 MB Floppy
    1024 x 768 SVGA
    Mouse
    DOS 5.0 + WINDOW 3.0
    -------------------------
    
    Price $1,799 , 		I can get same config with 80 MB hard disk
    				and 2400 modem for only $1,319.
    
    DECstation 320sx
    
    386sx 20Mhz                                                            
    2 Meg memory
    52 MB hard disk
    3"5 1.44 MB floppy
    1024 x  768 SVGA
    mouse
    DOS 5.0 & WINDOW 3.0
    
    --------------------
    Price $1,899		I get same config with 80 Meg hard disk
    				for $1,399.00
    
    Now, would you tell me if you shop for 386 class machine, which you
    will buy from ? Would you pay 25-30% premium just for the DEC logo 
    on your personal PC ?  The same price difference for 486 class machine.
    
    
    Michael...
    
    P.S I compile my price list from PC magazine, Boston Globe, Digital
    Review, and N.Y big PC retailer...

    I can get similar prices here in Mpls.  Only it includes 1-year ON-SITE
    warranty and an additional 4-years of carry-in.  I think Digital's is
    1-year carry-in.
    
    tgc

    
    re: .42
    
    	Is that including the 20% discount?  I've heard that the new EPP
    offer that is coming around May 18th will let us buy for 20% off of the
    DECDirect price.  Although I do admit that I'm confused about the whole
    matter, that is what I have heard.
    
    	If this is the case, then the prices aren't that far out of place
    for 'us'.  Still not the machine I want though.  Although we sell the
    3rd party stuff like AST and ZEOS, I don't think they'll offer those
    options to the scribes.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    
    re: .44
    
>    	Is that including the 20% discount?  I've heard that the new EPP
>    offer that is coming around May 18th will let us buy for 20% off of the
>    DECDirect price.  Although I do admit that I'm confused about the whole
>    matter, that is what I have heard.
    
The flier I recv'd is targeted to small business and individual professional
use, it's not for DEC employee program. In the ad, it has BIG-RED-MARK stated
"New Low Price" and 1-2 PUNCH of 1992 slogan, etc. 

Therefore, I figure it's lowest price I can get for most retail volume 
(I mean 1-5 units). I have no knowledge about 20% discount if that's
EPP program you talking about going to commence on May 18th.
Neither I would believe that I can talk DECdirect to give me another 20%
discount just because DEC employee can get 20% discount in the future.

However, on the other hand, most retailer I called upon said they will
give 5% off lowest price if I buy 3-5 units.

Michael..

The 2-year interest free payroll deduction is also worth 2-10%
(guesstimate), depending on whether the alternative for you is to pay
cash or charge it over a similar period.  That helps.  Also, our
magazine ads say "1 year on-site service", though it's possible that
the EPP doesn't include that.

How does the quality of our equipment compare?  It was obvious from
browsing in Lechmere the other night that not all "14" SVGA
non-interlaced" monitors are the same, but there's no way to tell from
a magazine ad.  Also, sometimes the cheaper brands are the ones to show
up on Usenet with "the monitor was dead on arrival, service was lousy,
and the memory configuration was wrong."
Is it possible that we're selling higher quality stuff, and not telling
people about it?

   Gary

   Let's see.  The DECstation 320sx is 1,899.  I am now looking at a
   local newspaper ad--not one of those PC discount rags--which says:
   
   o 80486dx-33 or 50 MHz processor
   o High Speed Math Co-Processor built-in
   o 64Kb Static RAM Fast Processor Cache
   o 4 Mb RAM Memory (expand to 32 Mb)
   o 130 Mb - 17 Ms. IDE hard disk drive
   o SuperVGA Color Monitor (1024x768)
   o SuperVideo Card (1 Mb Video RAM)
   o 5.25" & 3.5" Hi-Density Floppy Drives
   o Parallel, 2 Serial, and Game ports
   o 101 Key Enhanced Style Keyboard
   o MS-DOS V5.0 with Q BASIC
   
   Warranty: 1 year parts, 3 years labor
   
   Price:$1,899  ($370 more for the 50 MHz)
   		 ($180 for another 8 Mb of RAM)

    I wrote the base note for this string.  It seems to be rat-holing into
    "Can I get as good a deal from EPP as I can buy on the street?"  A good
    question, but not "The $2500 Question".
    
    In .0 I tried to show that the PC market is very close to the classic
    perfectly competitive market.  I asked:
    
    	...what is DEC trying to accomplish by being a player in this
    	space?  With our overhead structure, there is NO way that we could 
    	compete with the price leaders, even if we had zero cost for
    	manufacturing/acquiring the hardware we sold.
    
    The answers to this question that have been put forward so far seem to
    be that some customers will buy from us, regardless how overpriced our
    product is.  There is talk about DEC Quality as a Differentiator, which
    I find charmingly naive.  The basic fact is that if we want to sell
    our PC's at a competitive price, we'll have to lose money on them.
    
    Now offering a loss leader is a perfectly valid marketing strategy, if
    you enter into it with your eyes open.  Somehow I don't sense that this
    is what we are trying to do -- for one thing, our prices aren't quite low
    enough.  What I really suspect and fear is that someone, somewhere in
    this company really thinks that the PC business is going to be a big
    moneymaker for DEC.
    
    And people wonder why the stock is going down the toilet...
    
    Larry

    re: .48
    
    Exactly! That's how the Japanese do it. They go after market share
    first, profit later. We need to take a hit on our bottom line (read
    investement) to make our name in the PC market. Unfortunately, short-
    sighted management won't hear of this.
    
    WHY is it the corporation's goal to make Wall Street happy? 
    
    Can someone answer this for me?
    
    Ken....

    I hate to disillusion some of you folks out there but DEC has been 
    making money on PCs for the last 3 years.  I was with that business
    for the last 4 years and it has grown and profited almost consistently
    during that time.  It is considered one of the few bright spots in the
    company.  Yes, it is very competive and DEC overhead structures 
    and systems make it very difficult to compete.  But it just 
    means we need to be creative in our approach.  DEC finally owns a
    measureable share of the market and analysts look at us as a
    competitor in this space.  Much as many folks don't like to hear 
    it, the market for PCs is better than 100 times the size of the 
    market for workstations and you either sell customers PCs or 
    they buy them elsewhere....VMS is only better in our minds...
    
    As for the pricing....we set off the the current price war (with Dell,
    Compaq etc.) in January with our Desktop Direct introduction so 
    we can't be far off base....
    
    -sue white

re .50
>    I hate to disillusion some of you folks out there but DEC has been 
>    making money on PCs for the last 3 years.  I was with that business
no wonder, with that lunatic prices...

re .49
>    Exactly! That's how the Japanese do it. They go after market share
>    first, profit later. We need to take a hit on our bottom line (read
that's the whole (marketing) story

re .0/.48
>    	space?  With our overhead structure, there is NO way that we could 
>    	compete with the price leaders, even if we had zero cost for
>    	manufacturing/acquiring the hardware we sold.
no, it's relativ: "overhead/volume", then the more volume the more fun!

>    enough.  What I really suspect and fear is that someone, somewhere in
>    this company really thinks that the PC business is going to be a big
>    moneymaker for DEC.
that's the whole story - we've "only" a management problem.

Uli (still interested in DEC HW - sigh...)

Re: .50

>    I hate to disillusion some of you folks out there but DEC has been 
>    making money on PCs for the last 3 years.  

Could you break out our PC HW (DECpc) v.s SW (Pathworks etc.) revenue
stream ?  I would agree we made in road of our Pathworks product against
VINES, Netwell rival. However, our PC HW is still not price competitive.
I certainly doubt we make money on that.
Why you think we switch from Tandy PC, Olivetti PC into current venture
manufactured by Taiwan ? I can't give you answer either. However, my
best opinion is that we can't get enough margin out of Tandy stuff.

PC HW business is like commodity now. All looks the same, service, good
marketing channel, and better price will win the biggest volume.
What we should ask is what our PC is different from one on the street
deserve us to charge 25% more ?

DEC don't have too much choice now to fight window war until we come out 
with Alpha/PC to add up our value in there. DECdirect is the good start,
however, we need to keep put service value, SW value, and solution value
into it to win customer's embrace.

Just my .02

Michael..

    >   <<< Note 1855.47 by DYPSS1::COGHILL "Steve Coghill, Luke 14:28" >>>
    >		 ($180 for another 8 Mb of RAM)
    
    I want in on this deal! $22.50/MB for RAM is *incredibly* good.

A coworker just bought a PC from an outside source after finding out
that we don't sell a monitor that is FCC approved for the home.

Bill

    re .52 The choice to bring the hardware business inside was driven by our
    ongoing success in the PC hardware business which created sufficient 
    volume to allow us to build competitively internal to DEC.  We have 
    done quite well with the hardware as well as the software (Pathworks...)
    businesses.  Both are profitable in their own right and experiencing
    significant growth.
    

>              <<< Note 1855.54 by TLE::ROBINSON "Bill, EVE/TPU" >>>
>                              -< noisy monitors >-

>A coworker just bought a PC from an outside source after finding out
>that we don't sell a monitor that is FCC approved for the home.

we're trying to move into the telecommuting market and we don't sell
a monitor that's FCC approved? What's been going on - are we
living in a dream world that employees will be working exclusively
in offices in the future?

Or is this another product which the Japanese will beat us to market
with, while we find another company which will let us badge their
products and keep most of the profit?

What does Digital have to offer the telecommuter?

Craig

    
    Sorry for the diversion but I want to set the record straight...
    
    To my knowledge all the 14" PC monitors are FCC class B ..approved for
    home use...
    (at least they were when I was there) ..this may be referring 
    to the 19" and 16" high res (1280x1024 monitors) used on PCs 
    with a special video card (not VGA)..no one in the world 
    produces a class B monitor of this type ...
    
    I personally put a lot of heat into the system to get one sourced any
    where in the world...it just does not exist.,,,
    
    -sue white
    

    I think what Sue is saying about the profitability of DEC's 3rd
    shot at PC's (Tandy->Intel line) is interesting, but is it true?
    I'm not questioning her veracity, just the measurement system.
    
    So many times over the last few years I've heard XXX business
    manager get up and say, "Yes, we met our profitability goal on
    XXX product" when in fact, it just wasn't true.  The XXX manager
    wasn't accounting for the fact that Sales Reps had to allowance
    off lots of money to sell the XXX product, or that the amount of
    effort it took to sell the XXX product ate up lots of resources.
    The net result of selling the XXX product was a loss to the Company.
    
    Several people in our company have said that we're doing great in
    our PC hardware/software businesses, and yet in my corporate account
    these exact products have yet to gain any creditable foothold.
    I rarely see any Digital products mentioned in the PC trade press, 
    or see Digital numbers above the noise level in the marketshare 
    reports.  And finally, I see no evidence that Digital has any 
    different market strategies than the other clone makers, or that
    we can supply a product better, faster, or cheaper.  So I am at a
    loss to understand how we can be making big money on PC's at this
    point, and I would be grateful if anyone can explain it to me.
    
    Geoff
    

OK, what's FCC stand for ?

    The Federal Communications Commission.  They regulate the manufacture
    of equipment which has the potential of generating Radio Frequency
    Interference.

    Equipment intended to be used in someone's home is required to comply
    with something called Part B of FCC regulations.

Thanks, something to do with the States then....

I can keep the VT220 at home still :-)

Federal Communications Commission

They basically allocate the electromagnetic spectrum (radio, TV, ambulance and
police radios, CB, amateur radio, cordless telephones, you name it).

Digital electronics is good at putting out lots of hash noise, unless you take
care to shield it.  This is bad enough when it messes up someone's TV.  If you
are in an airplane and your portable computer messes up the plane's electronic
gear, it could be a lot worse...

I think the difference between Class A and Class B certification is that

    - Class A means "commercial equipment".  If you operate a Class
      A device in a residential area, and it interferes with radio/
      TV reception, *you* are responsible for fixing the problem.

    - Class B is residential.  I believe the RF emission limits are
      something like 10 times stricter than Class A.  Also, I think
      the FCC might accept a manufacturer's word that the equipment
      they sell is Class A, but require actual testing of the claim
      for a Class B device.  All of this is what I can remember off
      the top of my head from reading magazines, and could be wrong.

    The FCC regs are title 47 of the federal regulations.
    
    The section having to do with radiation by unlicensed devices is
    section 15.  This is the same section that regulates low power walkie
    talkies, etc.

    Minor clarification for .62:
    
    Class A: designed for computer rooms
    
    Class B: designed for general office and workplaces
    
    Class C: unconditional indoor environments.
    
    Personal computers and peripherals *must* conform to Class B.
    
    Please note that this is not a US-only requirement.  
    
    Canada:  CSA
    Germany: VDE
    Japan:   VCCI
    
    and others....
    
    Mark.

   Several people have asked "Where?" in regards to the $1,899 486dx.
   
   
   micrOtyme
   Fairmont Plaza
   4049 Marshall
   Kettering, Ohio
   
   (513) 294-6236
   
   Offer good 'til 2-May-92
   
   I would be glad to help in anyway I can if someone wants to buy one
   (short of paying for it myself).
   
   Work phone: (513) 258-3368  (This line has an answering machine on
   it)
   
   Home phone: (513) 254-1541  

    re: No FCC class B monitors
    
    I'm the employee mentioned earlier.  Here's the scoop:
    
    I wanted a 486/33 system, with somewhat souped up graphics.  What I
    ended up buying was a Centrix 486/33, 4 Meg RAM, 130 Meg hard drive
    with a Mag 15" flat-screen monitor (resolution to 1280 by 1024), and a
    Diamond Stealth video card.  
    
    While I can be talked into buying extra memory every few months, I am
    *not* interested in upgrading monitors, video cards, etc on a regular
    basis.  In short, I wanted to get something I was fairly certain I
    could live with for 2-3 years, given that I expect to be a heavy
    Windows user.  I called DEC, naively assuming that since our ads state
    "we will build you a custom PC", that I could call up and state my
    requirements.  When I tried this, it went something like this:
    
    Me:  Hi.  I'm interested in a 486/33 system, something like the 433T or
    433W - but I can't afford $5,000 or $6,000 so I wanted to cut down on
    some of the fancy features.
    
    Salesperson:  Sure, no problem.  What would you like?
    
    M:  Well, I don't need 8 Meg of memory, so we can cut that down to 4
    meg...
    
    S:  Ummmm...  hang on a sec.  (two minute wait, while S. audibly flips 
    through a few sheets of paper.)  Um, I'm sorry, the 486/33
    configuration that we have only comes with 8 Meg.
    
    M:  Hmmm.  Well, OK, memory probably isn't going to be the most
    expensive part anyway, so I'll spring a few hundred for an extra 4 Meg.
    I'd also like to end up with ~120 Meg disk drive...
    
    S:  Sure, no problem.
    
    M:  I'm also not really interested in a 20" monitor, which must be the
    largest reason the 433 sells for $5999...
    
    S:  Well, we've just dropped that to $4999, anway.
    
    M:  Cool!  But still way out of my price range.  What monitor can I get
    that will let me cut the price down significantly.  This is for home
    use, and I really have to work on a tight budget or my wife will kill
    me...
    
    S:  Did you say home use?  
    
    M:  Sure!  If I want it in the office, DEC can pay for it!
    
    S:  Ummmm.   Hang on a sec.  I'm not sure what I can do here, let me
    check.  (Four or five minutes of audible page turning, while we talk
    inanely about the Celtics...)  Oh, here it is.  You know what?  I don't
    have a configuration for a 486/33 that you can use at home.
    
    M:  Say what?  
    
    S:  All the monitors I can sell you for the 433's are FCC class A,
    which means you can't use them at home.
    
    M:  (Suddenly I'm glad that I sell my DEC stock as soon as the stock
    plan buys it.)  I'm amazed.  Is this for real?
    
    S:  Sure, but do you really need a 486/33 anyway?  
    
    M:  Well, maybe not.  What *can* you sell me for home use?
    
    S:  (Many minutes of audible page turning, while S mumbles to himself
    about which components to put where...)  Basically, I can get you a
    486/20SX with a 14" monitor, 4 Meg RAM and ~120 Meg drive for $X. 
    (Unfortunately, I don't remember what $X was, but I do remember it was
    several hundred dollars more than I could get a 486/33 for...)
    
    M:  Thanks for the info.  I'll get back to you.  >Click!<
    
    Let's contrast this to what happened when I called Centrix:
    
    Ernie:  Hi, this is Ernie R. at Centrix.  What can I do for you?
    
    M:  Well, I'm interested in something like the system I saw advertised
    in the latest Computer Shopper, except that I can't quite stretch my
    budget for what you've got there.  I want a 486/33 with 4 Meg RAM, ~120
    Meg hard drive, a super VGA monitor capable of handling 1280 by 1024,
    and a video accelerator card for Windows.  I'd also like to get under
    $2500.  What can you do for me?
    
    E:  Hang on a sec.  Oh, sure, I can configure that system, but I'm
    afraid I can't do it for less than $2600.
    
    M:  Well, that deal throws in a surge suppressor and a Focus 5001
    keyboard.  What if you keep the suppressor, and get me a Focus 2001.
    
    E:  Sure, you can have that for $2460 delivered!  (Note that he got rid
    of about $50 in parts, but dropped the price $140.)
    
    M:  Sold!
    
    

    	We (DEC) appear not to have commitment, while the other companies
    do.  It appears we can talk a good deal, but that's about it.
    	Anyone who thinks we are competitive, should get a computer shopper
    (you can pick it up at any supermarket, or book store for $2.95), and
    really look at the prices.  Call up one of them and see the service
    first hand.
    	Like I said we can talk a good deal, but others provide it.

    Jim Morton

    Sounds to me like the tables have turned.  I seem to remember the
    economies of scale to work this way:
    
    	1.  Big companies can go after markets where the profit margin is
    	    small.  That's because they can afford a big investment in a 
    	    product and sell a lot of them to make a big profit.  Their
    	    markets are general.
    
    	2.  Little companies have to stick with markets where the profit
    	    margin is large.  That's because they can't afford a big
    	    investment in a product and they can only sell a few.  Their
    	    markets are niches.
    
    I think the paradigm has changed:
    
    	1.  Little companies can go after markets where the profit margin
    	    is small because they have low overhead and their products are
    	    not much different than their competitors.  Their markets are
    	    therefore more general.
    
    	2.  Big companies have to go after markets where the profit margin
    	    is large because they have a lot of overhead and their products
    	    tend to be a lot different from their competitors.  Their
    	    markets are therefore more niche oriented.
    
    By this paradigm shift, it looks like big companies will get smaller
    and small companies will get larger.  I don't know what a big company
    can do other than reduce unnecessary overhead and operate like a bunch
    of tiny companies.  I *thought* that was the intention of NMS.
    
    My impression of NMS was that the top heavy units would get trimmed.
    That didn't happen.  I think Digital will have the same thing happen
    for a different reason.  That is, it may come down to reducing overhead
    and operating like a bunch of little companies (with big company
    advantages) or going out of business.  Might well come down to a choice
    of either reducing overhead or going out of business.
    
    Just IMHO, of course.
    
    Steve

    .66 and .67:
    
    Perhaps you missed this when it was explained the first time, but until 
    we start shipping systems  from Taiwan and eliminate Tandy and Intel from 
    our food chain, it will be difficult to underprice the mom and pop shops.
    
    We admit we have a ways to go, but we're making significant progress.
    
    Mark.

    >> <<< Note 1855.69 by RANGER::LEFEBVRE "Let's go to Memphis in the meantime" >>>
>>
>>    .66 and .67:
>>    
>>    Perhaps you missed this when it was explained the first time, but until 
>>    we start shipping systems  from Taiwan and eliminate Tandy and Intel from 
>>    our food chain, it will be difficult to underprice the mom and pop shops.
>>    
>>    We admit we have a ways to go, but we're making significant progress.
>>    
>>    Mark.
>>

    Nope, didn't miss it.

    Mark,
    	I half agree with you.  We are overpriced, but I don't agree with
    the reasoning.  Check with the catalog.  Most CPU's use INTEL (chips) 
    and parts.  If that isn't what you meant, then I submit that your
    statement is still flawed.  We not only get products from "INTEL and
    TANDY", but we make our own.  Some are made in the states, some out. 
    We still charge an outrageous price IMO.  WHY?

    	Our market is not for the masses, but the corporations.  We have no
    desire to be competitive with the mom and pop shops.  We have decided
    to eliminate an entire segment of the computer market (on purpose or
    not, I don't know).  I just know we have priced our products
    differently than our competition for the home market.

    Jim Morton

    ref  <<< Note 1855.68 by INDUCE::SHERMAN "ECADSR::Sherman DTN 223-3326" >>>
>    By this paradigm shift, it looks like big companies will get smaller
>    and small companies will get larger.  

    Brilliant ! so may be our strategy is become smaller and let the others get 
    bigger , so that when they become big , they cant stay big like us when we 
    were big because they have not been big before like us when we were big 
    (remember , we became small by then ), and they'll fall back to be small 
    like they were before becoming big, and then we'll move and be the big 
    company again.

    /nasser

    Re:  Last
    
    	Applause Applause, best grin today!
    

>    Nope, didn't miss it.
>
>    Mark,
>    	I half agree with you.  We are overpriced, but I don't agree with
>    the reasoning.  Check with the catalog.  Most CPU's use INTEL (chips) 
>    and parts.  If that isn't what you meant, then I submit that your
>    statement is still flawed.  We not only get products from "INTEL and
>    TANDY", but we make our own.  Some are made in the states, some out. 
>    We still charge an outrageous price IMO.  WHY?

    I'm not talking about CPU chips.  Tandy and Intel actually build our
    boxes.  We *buy* the boxes from them, integrate certain options and such 
    at various DEC facilities and ship to a customer.  We do not build the
    boxes at DEC.    Portables are not built here, Desktops are not built
    here, Starburst is not built here, and Eclipse is not built here. 
    Those are the systems that are being sold today in the US and via
    Desktop Direct.

>    	Our market is not for the masses, but the corporations.  We have no
>    desire to be competitive with the mom and pop shops.  We have decided
>    to eliminate an entire segment of the computer market (on purpose or
>    not, I don't know).  I just know we have priced our products
>    differently than our competition for the home market.

    We *do* have a desire to be price/performance competitive with the mom
    and pops shops.  We are exploring other distribution channels as well,
    and example being retail.
    
    One other comment regarding monitors and such not being FCC Class B
    compliant.  Many mom and pop shops do not perform regulatory and safety
    testing in order to keep costs down.  The gov't has recently announced
    that they will be inspecting many of these companies for compliance.
    
    Mark.

Would it be possible to refer to products by their official names?  Most of
us in the field are largely unaware of internal project names and, therefore,
have no idea what you're talking about.

-dave

From the FWIW department, and the comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware Usenet news group:

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Pierre VonKaenel) writes:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Path:
nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!decwrl!mips!mips!think.com!rpi
!scott.skidmore.edu!pvonk
From: [email protected] (Pierre VonKaenel)
Subject: Re: Digital - New PC offerings make it a contender in market
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 92 15:57:03 GMT-0:03

> 
> 	{The Boston Globe, 14-Apr-92, p. 39}
> 
>    Digital Equipment Corp. wants to be a contender.
>    With today's introduction of its most powerful personal computers yet, the
>  Maynard company is making a serious bid to gain respect in the PC market.
                                                   ^^^^^^^

Yeah, right!~$%^%&#

Consider one of their recent ads:

   DECpc 433 "Workstation" : 33 MHz, 486 with 8 MB and 40 MB Hard disk.


I have absolutely *no* respect for a company that tries to hawk a 486
with a 40 MB hard disk.  Talk about bait and switch tactics.  I
run into an occasional post from some innocent user complaining that
he can't install OS/2 or whatever because it's too big for his small
hard disk on his new 486.  Sure, the guy should have researched more
carefully before buying hardware, but it's ads like this that show
complete irresponsibility on the part of a company.  And don't flame
me by suggesting that some people don't need much disk space because
they're on a network.  I would venture to guess that *most* buyers of
a 486 NEED large disks.   [ time to let the blood pressure drop......]


>    Digital has traditionally not had much success in the PC market - 

Their marketing skills have not improved....

>    "It will take a while for them to become a major player in the PC business

..... as long as they sell stuff like this, yes,.... quite a while...



-- 
Pierre von Kaenel	| Skidmore College	     | [email protected]
Math & CS Dept.		| Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 | (518)584-5000
Ext 2391

Note 1855.68                   The $2500 Question.                      68 of 75

>    By this paradigm shift, it looks like big companies will get smaller
    
    Entropy.

>    and small companies will get larger.  I don't know what a big company

    Life, the antithesis of entropy.

    Fred
    

    re .75
    The 40Mb (now 52Mb) disk is intended only as a local swap device.
    The 433W is meant as a networked workstation, and the disk does
    a very good job of avoiding Windows or Un*x swapping over the
    network.  It isn't meant for anything else, except for maybe DOS
    in the case of a network that doesn't support remote boot.

    Just as a followup to my previous note.  I wanted to add some balance
    to .66, but just didn't have time to last night.
    
    Also, I've read the rest of this note, something that I hadn't done
    when I entered .66.  It looks like I fell into a known hole in our
    product line, as we don't have an "entry-level" 486...  That's very
    understandable, we're new to the business and I'm sure we're working
    hard to fill the gaps.  (We'd better be!)  But if we're making money at
    it, we must be doing something right.  The trick is to *keep* making
    money at it...
    
    Much of the product line is at least marginally competitive on price,
    even at first glance, and our laptops seem quite reasonable.  Through
    EPP, they might even be good deals.  Unfortunately, those products were
    not what I was after.
    
    The bigger problem is that we need to get our direct sell techniques
    down a little bit.  That means we need to configure 'on the fly',
    without embarrassingly long waits and paper shuffling.  We need to plug
    the gaps in our product line.  We need to be able to sell something to
    anyone that calls, and sound somewhat professional while we do it.
    Even if the customer wants something we can't deliver, we need to be
    courteous and professional about it.
    
    As an example, I called Zeos while I was shopping around.  I went
    through basically the same song and dance that I did with Centrix, but
    at the end the price was over $2800.  The sales rep, after doing the
    configuration, quite reasonably asked if I wanted to place an order for
    the system:
    
    M:  No, that price is simply too high.  I can get the same thing for
    about $2500.
    
    Zeos salesrep:  Are you sure you are talking about comparable systems? 
    
    M:  As sure as I can be without having both boxes in front of me, and a
    screwdriver in my hand.  You're using the same or similar name brand
    components, as far as I can tell.
    
    Z:  Unfortunately, sir, that's the best price I can quote today on a
    quantity 1 order.  Do you mind if I ask where you are getting that
    price from?
    
    M:  Well, I don't mind, but it's more than one competitor and I really
    don't have time to go over all the places I've called.  I'm probably
    leaning towards Centrix.
    
    Z:  Well, sir, I understand.  We think we have superior systems to
    anyone else out there, but that superior quality costs a bit more.  If
    you change your mind or would like to talk about this further, please 
    feel free to contact me at this number, extension xxxx.  
    
    M:  Sure - thanks for the information.  It's been a pleasure talking to
    you.
    
    The end result is that I didn't buy their computer, but I have a
    favorable impression of the company because their sales rep was
    friendly, efficient at putting together the configuration I wanted,
    didn't try to switch me to a lower priced alternative, and remained
    friendly even after she realized that the sale was lost.  I didn't get
    that impression from the DEC rep I talked to.  A sample size of one
    isn't very scientific, though - here's hoping that I got the one bad
    apple in the barrel...
    
    - Chris

    .74, "Starburst" and "Eclipse":
    
    If memory serves, "Eclipse" is the first 32-bit machine from
    Data General, circa 1975.  Maybe that one's before your time.
    
    Dick

    re:.66
    If Centrix sold you a monitor that did NOT have Class B approval and
    knew you were intending to use it at home, then they're in violation of
    the law.  If Centrix sold you a monitor that did NOT have Class B
    approval and you didn't tell them it would be used at home, then you're
    still in violation, for using it at home.
    
    If Centrix sold you a legit Class B 1280x1024 monitor, please tell us
    who made it!
    
    <flame on>The 433w is definitely not meant for home use anyway.  It's
    pretty much designed ONLY for limited LAN apps like Autocad design
    sweatshops.  Had they added one inch height and two ISA slots, it
    wouldn't need the expansion box, and could use normal-people's hard
    drives (instead of being the world's largest laptop).  But noooooo,
    they had to be too smart, and make the bounded "VAXmate II".  <flame
    off>

Re: .69
    
>    Perhaps you missed this when it was explained the first time, but until 
>    we start shipping systems  from Taiwan and eliminate Tandy and Intel from 
>    our food chain, it will be difficult to underprice the mom and pop shops.
 
Agreed here, but I even doubt we work harder and efficiently enough. If not,
even when the PC shipped from Taiwan won't do any good ?

8 out of 10 PC shop in N.Y area I know of have their PC components made
or imported from Taiwan, China, H.K etc. If we can't match the price, we won't
get the business. Period. It's commodity business now for PC.

Michael..

    re: .79
    
    	The first Eclipse from dg was a 16-bit machine.  It was an extension
    of the Nova line.  There was an S series (scientific) and C series 
    (commercial).   The 32 bit entry was code named, Eagle.  It was written
    up in a book called "The Soul of a New Machine".
    
    steve d/I_used_to_program_in_algol

    re: .80
    
    Not only making a bounded system, but then advertising it in Computer
    Shopper!  That is guaranteed to get people like me calling, who want a
    home system.  I didn't (then) know that the 433w is just for the rich
    guys with a network, none of our ads state any such thing, and it left
    a bad taste when I was essentially told "you can't possibly want
    something like that at home."  But I digress, as I've already said
    that I realize I unfortunately fell into a hole in our product line.
    
    I'll get the monitor specs tonight.  I'd hate to be breaking the law,
    but doubt that I am, since Centrix knows I wanted it for home use.
    
    - Chris

    Waitaminit.  Isn't there a name for that when you advertize one thing
    and when folks come in the first thing you tell 'em is, "no, you don't
    want that, what you really want is this more expensive model ..."  ;^)
    
    Not that that's what's really going on.  But, even giving folks the
    appearance of doing this type of thing could be a big turnoff.
    
    Steve

    >     <<< Note 1855.78 by TLE::WALSH "Follicularly challenged" >>>
    >that impression from the DEC rep I talked to.  A sample size of one
    >isn't very scientific, though - here's hoping that I got the one bad
    >apple in the barrel...
       When I called these folks the recording at the beginning told me the
    call "may be monitored", so I imagine management knows what these folks
    are telling customers.
                                         Denny

    .82:
    
    You've found me out!  These old college memories are fading...
    
    Dick

   Re:        <<< Note 1855.86 by LYCEUM::CURTIS "Dick "Aristotle" Curtis" >>>

"Old computers do not die, they just lose their memory!"

re: .75, .77, .80

I hope that .77 and .80 aren't examples of our inability to listen to
customers very well.

The poster of the Usenet article said:

> And don't flame
> me by suggesting that some people don't need much disk space because
> they're on a network.  I would venture to guess that *most* buyers of
> a 486 NEED large disks. 

So the responses in .77 and .80 may be true, they don't respond to this
particular customer's complaint.  

If we're going to sell it as a networked workstation, it needs to
marketed as such.  Include the networking card and software, perhaps as
deletable options.
Maybe even bundle Lotus Notes or similar packages.  We must especially
be clear in the ad about the goal for the system.  The essence of the
complaint isn't that the system is poorly configured, but that we were
misrepresenting it
as a potential standalone system.

   Gary

    re: Small disks on the 433W
    
    Looking through my latest copy of Computer Shopper, I see a number of
    386 and 486 configurations offered with small disks as either low cost
    starter systems or specifically as Network or LAN workstations (in
    conjunction with a file server system with lots of disk capacity).  DEC
    isn't the only company who thinks there's a market for systems with a
    small hard disk.
    
    I've got a 433W at work with the 40 meg drive, and it's an excellent
    window server - and I can't see any difference between access to the
    hard drive on the system and the network virtual drives.  As a solution
    to a specific type of application it's quite good.  I thought we were
    also offering (or will be offering) other configurations for people who
    want expandable systems.
    
    /Dave

    Not sure what the problem is:
    
    The 433W (aka DECpc 433 Workstation) has room for two disks in the it's
    low profile cabinet.  You get one 3.5" floppy and the 40MB IDE drive
    with the package that has been advertised.  Digital also sells an
    expansion box for it in which you can place two(or three) SCSI devices. 
    So if someone wants one of these with .9GB (40mb ide + 2-426mb scsi)
    it's no problem.

    -Bruce

    Check out 1125.* in RANGER::IBMPC-92 for a possible good PC deal.
    Fred

    re: .62 and .64 class confusion
    
    Reply .62 has it right - in the U.S. there's Class A for commercial use
    and Class B for home use.  The FCC requires this for almost all digital
    electronics.  In Europe, the German VDE has similar standards that are
    basically accepted throughout the European Community.  Eurostandards
    will eventually change to something called "CISPR."
    
    Reply .64 refers to Digital's environmental standards, i.e. operating
    temperature and humidity range.  There is NO "FCC Class C."
    
    Some of the replies talk about "illegal" use of a Class A monitor or
    computer at home.  While technically that's true, there's no way the
    FCC will bother individuals unless the neighbors complain.  So if a
    reader of this note has Class A stuff at home and has no problem with
    his/her own radio and TV reception, it's likely that nobody else will. 
    Your mileage may vary, of course.
    
    The impetus for FCC regulation of high-speed digital equipment was
    twofold: personal computers caused a massive increase in interference
    complaints to the Commission.  Also, some digital circuits like engine
    controls were proven to be susceptible to interference from two-way
    radios.  The "proof" often came quite dramatically.  So the FCC
    instituted standards for "electromagnetic compatibility" that were
    aimed at both the public safety and at its workload.  When suddenly it
    became possible to buy one's own telephones, the FCC instituted similar
    rules to qualify equipment based on its compatibility with the phone
    company and on safety in general.
    
    To get some idea of why these rules exist, just put a very old Apple II
    or C64 computer next to a TV, then try the same thing with a current
    version.
    
    All this rule and qualification stuff has the practical effect of
    making some problems far less likely -- the typical buyer doesn't have
    to think about them.
    
    Wes

    FWIW, the manual which accompanied the CRX 14" Super VGA Monitor that
    came with my FASTData 486 33Mhz system states that the monitor is FCC
    Class B approved.
    
    Larry
    
    PS I wrote the base note to this string.  I bought the above-mentioned
    system with a 200 MByte IDE drive, 4 Meg Ram, 8 k interanl and 128 k
    external  cache, 16 bit super VGA Card w/ 1 Meg, both floppies,
    clock-calendar card, tower chassis with 8 expansion slots, 230 Watt power
    supply, MS DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1 with Logitech mouse, and one year
    on-site warranty by GE, for about $2200.  Still haven't seen anything
    comparable at this price from DEC.
    
    

    re:.93
    Virtually every current 14" monitor is FCC Class B.  What the VAXmate
    II comes with is a much larger monitor.  As someone else noted, those
    are not readily available (if at all) with Class B!
    
    re:.92
    Enforcement is a different question.  If you live in exurbia on a big
    lot with no nearby neighbors, Class A is unlikely to cause anyone
    outside of your own home any trouble.  If you live in a city, it can be
    a real problem.  But since radio waves don't carry a clear signature,
    the affected neighbors won't know who's causing the problem.  It's like
    any other form of pollution, except that it requires different tools to
    trace.

re: 1855.92                   The $2500 Question.                      92 of 94
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>    Reply .64 refers to Digital's environmental standards, i.e. operating
>    temperature and humidity range.  There is NO "FCC Class C."

I can see where this can get confusing for some folks, because 
back a few years there was a popular category called "FCC Class C".

I know this  because I had a license to operate a FCC Class C Device,
upgraded  to an FCC Class B devices. There is yet another
level called the FCC Class A license.

The problem here is comparing bananas to giraffes ...

In this company FCC .. generally relates to the FCC Regulations on 
accidental emission of computers; where as in other companies, such
as  you local radio station FCC Regulations control the deliberate emissions
of radio waves.

The difference, of course, is in ones experience with what ... any Ham radio
operator can tell you that, also ....

Ciao,

Bob

    re:.95
    Yes, it's a rathole, but the FCC uses letter like "A", "B", and "C"
    in various contexts, none relevant to the issue at hand, but one.
    
    Part 15 of the regulations discusses incidental radiation, like the
    stuff that leaks from computers.  It has "A" and "B", but no "C",
    as compliance categories.
    
    The fact that a radio-controlled model could be covered by a license
    called "Citizens Radio Service Class C" (Part 95), or other uses of the
    letter "C" which may have existed, is irrelevant.  We need Class B
    (Part 15) compliance to sell into the home.  Some of our machines have
    it, some don't.

 The following appears in the VTX CIS system (Competitive Information System),
 from yesterday:

Subj:	 CIS DELIVERS ... Digital and Lotus offer SmartSuite 

 -----       Digital and Lotus offer SmartSuite      
|C I S|                                    
 -----  
             Source : Business Wire              Date : 05-MAY-92

     + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + 
     |  Please be advised that the information contained within this | 
     +  report is copyrighted material.  The following policies must + 
     |  be adhered to:                                               | 
     +                                                               + 
     |     -  No reformatting of the data segments                   | 
     +     -  No external distribution                               + 
     |     -  Internal use only in accordance with vendor agreements | 
     + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + 

	CAMBRIDGE, Mass.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Digital Equipment Corporation 
	(DEC) and Lotus Development Corporation today announced that the 
	companies will include complimentary units of Lotus' SmartSuite for 
	Windows with U.S. purchases of Digital PCs. 

	SmartSuite for Windows, a $795 value in Digital's Desktop Direct 
	catalog, includes the latest versions of Lotus 1-2-3, Freelance 
	Graphics, Ami Pro, and a cc:Mail Single User Pack.  Customers also 
	receive DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1, which come factory installed on 
	Digital PCs. 

	This offer applies to all 386 and 486 PCs, including the DECpc 
	400ST family, the industry's first PCs capable of fully utilizing the
	forthcoming generation of Intel microprocessors commonly referred to 
	as ``586''  technology. 

	Digital PCs purchased between May 5 and June 30 will receive the 
	complimentary units of SmartSuite.  In addition, customers who 
	purchase DEC PCs between July 1 and December 31, 1992, will receive 
	one Lotus application of the customer's choice at no extra cost. 
	These promotions apply to PCs sold through all of Digital's 
	distribution channels, including resellers and the Desktop Direct 
	catalog at 1-800-PC-BY-DEC. 

	``In the past several years, customers have become increasingly 
	interested in acquiring powerful hardware, tightly integrated 
	applications and top quality service and support from a single 
	provider,''  said Jay H.  Atlas, Digital's vice president of U.S. 
	channels.  ``We have taken a number of steps to respond to this 
	demand, including the creation of Desktop Direct, Digital's mail 
	order service for PC customers. 
	
	``Today's customers have high standards for price performance, 
	service and support.  Digital has long been committed to meeting 
	customer requirements and, like Lotus, has proven its ability to 
	exceed them.  This promotion offers customers the kind of value they 
	have come to expect from both Digital and Lotus.'' 

	``Customers purchasing high performance desktop systems like 
	Digital PCs and DECstations want to maximize their hardware 
	investments with high-performance applications that work well 
	together,''  said Frank Ingari, Lotus' vice president of marketing. 
	``SmartSuite satisfies this need with four market-leading applications
	in the major desktop categories.'' 


	Digital Personal Computers 

	The DECpc 400ST family of industry standard personal computers 
	(425ST, 433ST, 450ST) are based on the powerful Intel 486 
	microprocessors and scalable Xpress EOSA architecture.  Some of 
	today's systems offer scalability from 386 to 486.  In addition, 
	DECpc 400STs can be upgraded from 486 to the full power of the 586 
	technology simply by snapping in a new CPU board. 

	Digital sells a variety of 386 and 486 PCs, from notebook PCs to 
	high-end graphics workstations. 


	SmartSuite Applications 

	Lotus 1-2-3 for Windows Release 1.1 is an update to the Windows 
	version of the world's most popular spreadsheet.  It delivers 
	industry-leading technologies including 3D worksheet capabilities, 
	Solver and BackSolver advanced goal-seeking tools, and external data 
	access capabilities through DataLens.  1-2-3 for Windows Release 1.1 
	is compatible with Lotus' spreadsheets for other platforms. 

	Ami Pro is Lotus' award-winning visual word processor designed 
	for Windows.  Ami Pro offers such leading-edge functionality as 
	outlining, master documents and an enhanced macro language. 

	Freelance Graphics for Windows is a presentation graphics 
	software program designed to help users create professional-looking 
	presentations easily.  Freelance Graphics features SmartMasters, 
	collections of ready-made presentation pages that guide users in 
	creating presentations by prompting them to place their text, charts 
	and graphics in specified areas of each page. 

	cc:Mail is the most popular LAN-based electronic mail package, 
	with nearly 1.5 million users worldwide.  The cc:Mail Single User 
	Pack included in SmartSuite can be used to add one user to a cc:Mail 
	network. 

	SmartSuite also includes a Windows 3.1 tutorial developed by 
	Personal Training Systems, Inc.  Designed to help users quickly 
	develop competency in Windows, the tutorial explains how to manage 
	files, use multiple windows, add printer drivers and perform other 
	key functions.  It is delivered in a 90-minute audio cassette, 
	practice disk and command summary card.  For a limited period, Lotus 
	is providing this $100 value to SmartSuite customers free of charge.
	The applications included in SmartSuite are designed to be used 
	together, minimizing training time and maximizing productivity.  The 
	products are similar in their appearance, behavior and compatibility.
	SmartSuite requires a minimum of 4 MB. 

	Consistent features across the suite include SmartIcons, mail 
	enabling, WYSIWYG display, and Adobe Type Manager support.  Printing,
	opening files, getting help, and selecting colors or fonts are all 
	done using the same controls across the suite of applications. 

	Ami Pro, Freelance Graphics and cc:Mail are tightly integrated 
	with all cross-platform versions of 1-2-3, reading its graph file 
	format; Ami Pro outlines can be copied into Freelance's outliner to 
	automatically generate presentations.  ``Launching''  icons for all of 
	the SmartSuite applications allows users to move easily between 
	applications without interrupting sessions.  In addition, customers 
	using cc:Mail for Windows Release 1.1 can send mail from within any 
	SmartSuite application. 

	Lotus Development Corp. (NASDAQ:LOTS), founded in 1982, 
	develops, markets and supports business software and CD-ROM databases
	that help users access, analyze, communicate and share information. 
	The company's first product, Lotus 1-2-3, is the most popular 
	personal computer software program in the world with more than 18 
	million users.  Lotus markets its broad range of products in more 
	than 65 countries and offers users comprehensive support options, 
	including 24-hour-a-day, 7-day-a-week support in the U.S. for PC 
	versions of its 1-2-3 spreadsheet. 
	
	All prices and terms for the U.S. only 

    RE:??? 20" COLOR MONITOR FCC CLASS B COMPLIANT
    
    Was at Lechmere' in Salem NH last night. Saw 20" color monitor made
    in Taiwan for NA Phillips on display. Retail @ $1699.00 certified as
    FCC class B compliant.
    
    Just a FYI for interested party.

    Rumor has it that we are about to offer a "super" deal on PCs in EPP
    any one have any info?
    FJK

        I heard on the news that a deal now being offered on PCs DEC sells
     - FREE LOTUS 1-2-3 and I believe one other application with a value
    of $795. Can't believe I heard it on Channel 5 (WCVB) and not one
    mention of it in here.Offer good until June 30th.
    
                                               Rich

    .100 is correct.
    
    According to _Digital Today_ (May 4, 1992 issue), US Customers who
    order any DECpc or DECstation system between May 1 and June 30 will
    receive a free copy of Lotus SmartSuite, worth $798.  This package
    includes full copies of the latest versions of Lotus 1-2-3 for Windows,
    Freelance Graphics for Windows, AmiPro, and cc:mail.
    
    Not a bad deal.
    
    Mark.

    So what!!
    
    Of late I've been pricing systems trying to decide which one to
    buy.  Yesterday I call DEc and detail the system I'm looking for.
    DEC's price was 120% higher than I can purchase a similar system
    on the open market.  We're talking a 386/25 mhz system here.  
    Nothing exotic, rather an off the shelf item.
    
    You're not going to be successful in the PC maket carrying the overhead
    DEC does within it's corporate structure.
    
    
    Tom

    RE .100, .101:
    
    Note 1855.97 already detailed this offer.

    
    Here's the headline from yesterday's U.S.A Today:
    
    IBM :  A PC to your door for $1,495
    
    IBM is jumping into the mail-order PC business with a vengeance.
    Here's what they offer:
    
    IBM: PS/2 35SXSX. 20 MegHz. 40 MB drive, 2 Meg Memory. DOS V5.0. +
    Color Monitor.  $1,495 (previously $2,309)
    
    IBM: PS/2 40SX, 20 Mhz, 40 MB drive, 2MB mem, DOS V5.0, color monitor. 
    $1,595 (previously $2,419)
    
    Compare it to DEC's offering yourself !!!!
    
    Competitors says IBM's mail order prices are low, but not low enough.
    
    Dell CEO says IBM might find the mail order business a bit puzzling.
    You have to have the service and support structure. It's not an 800
    number and 1000 people pn the phone. It's a lot more complex than that.
    
    
    
    Michael..

    Re: .58 Before any product is brought to market by Digital, a
    Business Plan for that product is required.  The Business Plan
    contains a P&L for the life of the product.
    As the product goes through the different phases of product life,
    the Financials are updated as required.  This is one way to 
    understand how profitable a product will be.
    Financials include (but are not restricted to) NRE, discounts, 
    allowances, cost of Engineering, Marketing, overheads, Sales
    etc.  Before a product can be blessed, we need to understand
    whether or not it will meet the acceptable margins.
    Additionally, the Finance group monitors the product and PCU on
    a quarterly basis.  If a product is not meeting the acceptable
    Financial hurdle rates then any number of things can happen
    ranging from renegotiating product costs to marketing the product(s)
    in a different way.
    Based on the Business Plans that I have seen and based on
    comparisons of forecast to actuals, Digital IS making money on
    PCs. 
    Just curious - are YOU a Finance person.  Is this why you are
    questioning the methodology?
    

My big question after reading the following:

Can we compete in $500/per_unit_PC for the coming 3-5 years period ?


Michael..

=====================================================================
Acer is still searching for the password to the U.S.

By Pete Engardio in Taipei, with Kathy Rebello in San Francisco and Bruce 
Einhorn in Taipei.

Business Week. May 18, 1992.
                  
Stan Shih likes to talk about his _go_ strategy for conquest in business. 
Rather than lunge for the quick victory, a master player of the Oriental board
game methodically surrounds his opponents before moving in for the kill.  Since
1984, Shih has been using this patient tactic to move Acer Inc. into the U.S.
computer market.

The first step was to build up Acer's own research and development capability. 
Then he expanded the product line by buying two Silicon Valley computer makers. 
He also invested heavily to recruit U.S. distributors and make the Acer name
familiar to consumers.  By this year, Acer was to have been ready for its big
assault.  it would storm the $500 PC and an ad blitz.  Shih's goal: To make the
Taiwan-based Acer one of the world's top five computer makers by 1995.

The _go_ strategy hasn't gone as Shih had hoped.  Last year, heavy losses in
Acer America Corp. led to the parent company's first loss in 15 years - $22
million on sales of $472 million.  Leonard Liu, a 20-year IBM veteran and
Acer's president for American operations, quit on Apr. 22, and Shih assumed his
responsibilities.

Shihs first mistake was investing in the wrong Silicon Valley companies.  In
1987, he paid $6 million for Counterpoint, a startup that built a powerful
minicomputer using multiple microprocessors.  But Counterpoint was no match for
the likes of Digital Equipment Corp. and failed two years later.  In 1990, Shih
doled out $94 million for Altos Computer Systems Inc.  A microcomputer pioneer,
Altos had thousands of customers and an extensive network of distributors.  But
it, too, was selling minicomputer-like setups, and sales were evaporating.

'THE TERMINATOR.' But mismanagement, Acer executives say, caused the real
damage.  On top of poor inventory control and an unappealing product mix, slow
shipments of finished PCs from Taiwan caused bottlenecks at the PC assembly
plant in San Jose, Calif.

Last year, the company began slashing Acer America staff by 10%, to about 600, 
and streamlining supply lines.  It now plans to send parts, rather than
finished PCs, to San Jose.  That will make it easier to change configurations
and cut prices quickly.

The $500 PC, which Acer nicknamed "the Terminator," has been dropped.  Acer
couldn't get the price down that low, says Acer PC System Business President
Johnny Shih - no relation to the founder.  But last August, the company
launched the low-cost Acros line for mass-merchandise chains and computer
superstores.  The cheapest model, based on Intel Corp.'s 80386SX chip, sells
for about $800, and Acer expects Acros sales to hit $100 million the first
year.  "The revenues are huge," says Peter A. Janssen, Acer America's marketing
vice-president. "The problem is profitability."

ROUGH TERRAIN. Shih says the troubles in the U.S. weren't unexpected, given the
recession and price wars.  Acer, he notes, made money everywhere else.  "We can
compete anywhere in terms of product and price," he says.  But the U.S. "is
totally unfamiliar."  He concedes, too, that he underestimated the investment
needed to penetrate the U.S. market.

But he's not giving up.  Acer America is boosting its service staff and has
started a telemarketing operation.  Acer computers were recently picked for the
ComputerLand Corp. chain, and Shih expects a 40% rise in U.S. sales, to $280
million - and breakeven - in 1992.  "We're medal winners in South America, the
Middle East, and Southeast Asia," he says. "But we haven't won the U.S. Open
yet.  We're not used to that game."  So far, at least, the patient _go_
strategy hasn't worked.

    re:  .104  "Why am I questioning DEC PC practices"
    
    No, I'm not a finance person, I'm a sales support person.  Over
    the past few years, I've seen every sales person who got involved
    in trying to sell DEC PC's *killed* by either the competition or
    by the process of getting >50% allowances to induce customers to
    buy our products.  My last encounter with this phenomenon was two
    weeks ago, where my account team begged one of our best customers
    to consider buying his next batch of PC's from us.  He gave us
    several opportunities through the various channels, and he gave us
    candid information on competitors proposals and quotes.  The initial 
    $150K order went to Dell, and the feedback on DEC was @#$%& ...
    
    I realize that is anecdotal information, but I will also say this:
    several of my friends work at both Dell and Compuadd here in Austin,
    and their descriptions of their business practices differ markedly
    from yours.  Dell in particular seems to recognize the commodity
    aspect of their business, and uses methods that would not be out of
    place on the floor of the Mercantile Exchange.  While it has taken
    Mike Dell years to get his "system" down right, it now seems to
    work with remarkable speed.  I can judge it's success in very 
    simple terms:  revenue, earnings-per-share, and marketshare, 
    all of which are headed in the "up" direction.
    
    Digital on the other hand, is an enigma.  I have seen several memos
    from product managers over the years proclaiming success for things
    like the  PROs, the VAXmate, and the Tandy line.  But I've never seen
    *anyone* outside of Digital refer to them as successful products.
    I have not seen any evidence in my customer base that Digital PC's
    are gaining marketshare.  So I tend to be a little gun shy when
    people tell me that "We're exceeding expectations" ...
    
    I'd be very glad to see DEC's PC strategy be enormously successful and
    bail the company out.  But the last major batch of PC's I saw sold had
    Gateway and Dell labels on them ...
    
    Geoff Unland in Austin
    
    

    
    According to USA Today, Dell has cut prices again.  This makes
    the fifth price cut in 12 months.  "Dell cut prices as much as
    26% on its line of desktop and floor-standing personal computers
    as well as its color notebook PC.  New prices include the 325NC
    color notebook for $3,499 vs. $4,299, and the 325SX for $1,199
    vs. $1,349."
    
    Will DEC match this cut?
    
    jeff
    

>    are gaining marketshare.  So I tend to be a little gun shy when
>    people tell me that "We're exceeding expectations" ...

Slightly cynically but... if your expectation is zero, then *any* sale
will exceed it... 

What I find more frightening is that this philosophy seems to be carrying
over onto the software side as well.

Gavin

    
    Additional info from U.S.A Today
    
    It's amazing to learn PC maker Gateway 2000 had $627 mil revenue last
    yr, and going to breakthrough 1 Billion this year.  Growth rate is 128%
    for 1991. Earning is $60 Mil. Excellent work for 7 yrs old firm.
    
    Same for Dell, $890 Mil revenue last year and 63% growth rate.
    
    Michael...

 Things are perhaps not so easy for our PC competitors...:

Extracted and condensed from "Dowvision Test" 
Date: May 11 1992    

        Low-Cost PC Makers Have Come On Strong But Difficulties Loom

    It wasn't very long ago that life was a breeze for the makers of cheap 
 personal-computer clones.

    Peddling their wares by mail and through discount stores, a group of 
 eclectic upstarts set off a pricing and marketing war that roiled the 
 industry. Stealing market share from the industry giants, the newcomers grew 
 at dizzying rates.

    Now the war is beginning to take its toll on the young Turks. 

    The new vendors are facing their own set of problems -- a lack of 
 working capital, administrative overload, complaints about quality and the 
 relentless threat of even cheaper vendors.

    In recent months, Northgate Computer Corp., a mail-order star, has run 
 into financial troubles, while Packard Bell Electronics Inc., the king of the 
 mass-merchandising outlets, is awash in debt and red ink. Even mail-order 
 phenomenon Gateway 2000, has been humbled with product defects, rising costs 
 and management turmoil.

    Making matters worse, IBM and Compaq are preparing to launch special lines 
 of "clonebusters," which will cost much less to produce than their standard 
 models.  Digital Equipment Corp. says its recently launched Desktop Direct 
 mail-order business has been successful. And Dell Computer Corp. has started 
 to regain market share by tightening its belt. 
  
    IBM and Compaq believe they don't need to match low-end competitors dollar 
 for dollar: For many buyers, they say, reliability and experience are as 
 important as price.

    Some big corporate customers agree. Nike Inc., for instance, recently 
 decided to buy only IBM, Apple and Compaq PCs after running a comprehensive 
 series of tests on a wide range of clones. Roderick Rockwell, the shoe 
 company's top PC technician, says the tests showed that low-end machines tend 
 to perform poorly in networks -- just the sort of use they're likely to be put 
 to in a big company. 

    Amid the raging price war, some of those who started it are showing
 fatigue; Northgate Computer has retained an investment bank to search for 
 new capital or someone to buy the company outright. One looker: IBM.
  
    Zeos's profit grew to more than $10.3 million, but the company is now 
 warning of possible lower first-quarter earnings. James A. Stone, an analyst 
 with Ladenburg, Thalmann & Co., contends that falling gross margins coupled 
 with high sales and marketing expenses make Zeos's near-term future "bleak".
  
    Packard Bell disclosed that it would have reported a cumulative loss of 
 $9.7 million between 1987 and 1991, including losses in two of the last three 
 years, if it had been a public company. Although gross sales climbed 34% to 
 $819.5 million in 1991, customer refunds and other adjustments ballooned 56% 
 to $143.5 million.

    The situation is worse for KLH Computers Inc., another major player in the 
 warehouse and "superstore" markets. Last month, after enduring a year of 
 liquidity problems brought on by a retail slowdown and a fight with bondholder 
 Carl Icahn, the Houston company filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy-law petition.

    At first look, it wouldn't appear that any of these problems have affected 
 Gateway 2000. 
    With low overhead, Gateway practically seized control of pricing in the 
 industry by undercutting everyone else. Its strategy was simple: Keep wages 
 and other costs to a minimum, and let other PC-makers spend on research and 
 development. 
    But lately, some bugs have appeared in the formula. Customer support -- not 
 a problem when the company was shipping a few thousand boxes a year -- has 
 suddenly turned into a major issue. Nearly half a million Gateway systems are 
 in circulation now, and on a typical Monday 9,000 users call Gateway's 
 800-line with questions ranging from how to plug in a monitor to what to do 
 about a hard disk drive failure.
    As the company's sales have grown, so have complaints about quality.
 Gatwway recently acknowledged that a large quantity of motherboards produced 
 mathematical errors when running a popular spreadsheet program. Although the 
 boards were replaced at no cost to consumers, some customers blame Gateway 
 for inadequate testing.
    In recent months, Gateway has slowed its price cutting, giving competitors 
 some breathing room. 

Do you have any experience with these companies or 
own (maybe know someone who does own) there systems

Rick A (in search for the right PC)


 Company Name          |  Cooments here please...................
=======================+=======================================================
A-PLUS Computers       |
Arche                  |
A-Tronics Inter, Inc.  |
ALLUR' Tech Inc        |
ALR                    |
Altec Tech Corp        |
Altex Electronics      |
Amka Int               |
AmtA Computers         |
ARES Inc               |
Ariel Design           |
Austin Computer Systems|
Blackship              |
Blue Dolphin           |
Bus Comp System Inc    |
Centrix Corp           |
CIN Incorp.            |
CompuAdd               |
Compudyne              |
Comtrade               |
DATA Dataworld         |
DATOM Tech Inc         |
DCP Computers          |
Dell Computers         |
EPS Tech Inc           |
FASTMICRO              |
Gateway 2000           |
Gecco Computers        |
HD Computers           |
High Definition Sustems|
High Tech USA          |
Hokkins Syst. Inc      |
Infiniti Computers     |
Infinity Systems       |
Insight                |
Inverson TECH          |
JCC Systems            |
JDR Microdevices       |
KEYDATA                |
Lapine                 |
Locus Digital Products |
Lodestar               |
Micro Data             |
Micro Generation       |
Micro LAB              |
Micro Link             |
Micro Tough            |
Micro PRO              |
Micro Professional     |
Mid-West Micro         |
Mid West               |
Myoda                  |
NAGA                   |
NeXT                   |
Northgate Computers Inc|
Packard Bell           |
PC BRAND               |
PC Professional        |
PC Turbo Corp          |
PC USA                 |
Quantex Microsys. Inc  |
RITE Microsystems      |
Standard               |
Strobe                 |
Sawn Tech              |
Solidtech              |
Sunnytech              |
Syntax Corp            |
Tandy Corp             |
Touche'                |
Treasure Chest Comp Sys|
Tri-Star Corp          |
USA Turbo              |
USA FLEX               |
UTI                    |
V-Com                  |
WSYE                   |
Zenon                  |
Zeos                   |
    

Please take any discussion of which-pc-should-i-buy, etc. to RANGER::IBMPC-92.

Thanks,

Bob - Co-moderator-DIGITAL

    re: .112
    
    Also, if you ask for feedback on possible suppliers in IBMPC-92, you
    might want to add that negative feedback be MAILed to you, since
    current corporate guidelines are VERY tight these days regarding 
    "negative" comments about other companies in notesfiles.
    
    -- Russ

    re:  Clone makers in disarray ...
    
    So far, those clone makers who are failing are doing so because of
    two major reasons:  Attempting to "buy" marketshare with lowest
    prices and lowest overhead, and those who are succeeding beyond
    their wildest expectations and are dealing with growth issues.
    
    Packard Bell is a major case for Reason #1, and Gateway is a case
    for Reason #2.  Northgate is a *very* interesting case, because I
    believe that they used a strategy very similar to our current PC
    strategy.  Northgate believed that they could walk a middle line
    between price and "value-added" marketing niches.  A Northgate
    system would cost 30% more than a Gateway system, but Northgate
    claimed lots of "quality awards" made the price difference worth it.
    
    Northgate started choking when Gateway and others matched the
    service offerings, and customers started regarding Northgate's
    "value-added" claims as frills and frivolity.  The niche they
    aimed for between IBM/COMPAQ on the high-end and DELL/GATEWAY
    on the low-end has closed up, and Northgate will go under or
    be bought for a pittance.  Digital PC business managers should
    take note of this lesson.  Oh yes, Northgate owes a lot of its
    present red ink to two financial black holes:  They did a lot
    of "custom component" design and manufacturing, and they tried
    to start up a "corporate" direct sales force.  Sound familiar?
    
    There will undoubtedly be more shakeout in the market over the
    next two years, since the PC market as a whole is slowing down,
    and as the get-rich-quick companies start to drop out.  The
    companies who survive will be the ones who invent new business
    practices to control costs, or who invent new market strategies
    that will attract new business.  Digital seems to be unable to
    do the first, control costs, and we seem quite content to copy
    the two-year-old business strategies of others.  An example:
    
    The latest program in Sales is to provide laptops to field Sales 
    and Sales Support people.  This will help get everyone PC literate,
    and in turn be more responsive to customers who buy PC *solutions*
    to business problems.  The only problem with the program is that it
    requires each and every person to travel to a training center and sit 
    through two days of very superficial classes in order to get the PC.
    
    No thought was ever given to using the existing technical resources
    in the field, or of the proficiency levels of the PC recipients.  
    Therefore, a number of people like myself (with 5 years experience 
    in building PC hardware and software solutions) end up spending 
    $500-$1000 in expenses and two days of valuable "people-time" to 
    get a PC, over and above what it cost DEC for the PC and software.
    At least it keeps a few trainers in jobs for the next year, I guess.
    
    
    I always hope I'm wrong, and that our PC business will pull DEC out
    of it's financial morass and keep me employed for a few more years,
    but I refuse to put blinders on ...
    
    Geoff in Austin
    

re: 1855.115                  The $2500 Question.                    115 of 115
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                           -< Hard business lesson? >-

>    for Reason #2.  Northgate is a *very* interesting case, because I
>    believe that they used a strategy very similar to our current PC
>    strategy.  Northgate believed that they could walk a middle line
>    between price and "value-added" marketing niches.  A Northgate

Recently in the news is that IBM is buying Northgate to take get into
the 'direct sales', without alienating their existing dealers.

Computer Shopper recently highlighted DECs entry into Direct Sales; however
the article wasn't very complimentary to DEC or to IBM.

DEC has a long way to go to to catchup, and even with the current level
of success, ar least we seem to be getting onto the right track.

Some of the PC-BY-DEC Software is much lower in price than some in Computer
Shopper. Seems odd when compared to PC Prices ...

Bob

From VNS (and since I put it there I don't have to attribute it :-)

 Intel - Again cuts prices sharply on its 486 chip
        {The Wall Street Journal, 14-May-92, p. A3}
   Effective July 1, Intel said the price of the 25 MHz Intel 486 SX would be
 $119, in quantities of 1,000, down from the current price of $282, which was
 reduced from $319 on April 1. Intel said the latest cut reflected a drop in
 manufacturing costs and an attempt to grab more of the low-end PC market. As a
 result of the price cut, it said consumers will be able to purchase more
 powerful 486 SX-based computers for about the same price as machines based on
 386 microprocessors.

    i think i heard on the news yesterday that INTEL just slashed the
    prices of 486 chips by up to 50% . that should bring prices of PC's
    down even more.
    /nasser

    
    
    RE: .113
    
    I am not looking for which PC to buy.
    Only asking here and on RANGER::IBMPC-92 as
    to companies and any experience anyone may have.
    
    Concur with MAIL on negative feedback.
    Anyone who response to this PLEASE DO SO.
    I do not think though that if you had a good or
    bad experience with a particular company as to service,
    support or whatever should be considered "negative".
    
    Oh well... whatever...
    
    thanks anyway  RIck A

Taiwan Plant Boosts PC Manufacturing

Product Insight. Digital Equipment Corporation. May/June 1992.

Digtial will utilize its world-class manufacturing facility in Taiwan for PC
design and manufacture.  This move will strengthen relations with Intel Corp.,
Tandy Corp., and Ing. C. Olivetti SpA, who have been supplying Digital with
various components for the manufacture of PCs.

Intel has been supplying chips for the various models, while Olivetti has been
jointly producing portables with Digital, mainly for sale in Europe.  Tandy has
been building PCs to Digital's specifications, and Digital has been adding
value by including its own components in those units.  The three vendors will
continue to supply Digital with a variety of products for the Taiwan facility.