Conference 7.286::digital

If I may introduce a primitive graphic device...

(best interests of Digital - measured by NYSE, F500, sales, etc.)
		|
(best interests of organization Z - measured by ...)
		|
(best interests of district - measured by SalesSat,CERTS, turnover...)
		|
(best interests of unit manager - measured by CustSat,EIS,CERTS...)
		|
(best interests of employee - measured by (X,Y)

X & Y vary from employee to employee but certain commonalities are 
probably salary, recognition, challenge, growth path, & intangible factors.
This conceptual structure presents the root of the conflict - things generally
go from an employee's specific career need (upwards growth paths) to general
(ROI, net profit, etc) for the company as a whole. What dollar value can
you put on the value to an employee of a career path within a district?
The stockholders probably are not too concerned about sales support people's 
career path... its an internal (invisible) issue. For a company participating
in the publically traded markets, monetary issues will override personnel
issues, especially in hard times. The only contravening factor I can think 
of is the Digital "cultural values" which are sufficiently vague so that 
they act primarily to prevent seriously unethical behaviours.

So much for ideas, now experience says to me that Sales Support is mainly
a stepping stone to other places, that the close association with sales
brings on stresses which end up overriding the benefits. My perception is
that when S/W specialists get that job change into engineering or research
or (some other non-sales related job), they made it, they've exited
the rat race (to some extent) of being connected to the great grinding wheel, 
sales numbers. 

I think many technically-oriented people appreciate the freedom
from being catapulted around from crisis to crisis, priorities altered every 
couple days or even hourly. My personal feeling is that the degree of quality
to my work is proportional to the degree I can focus in on it, and supporting
multitudes of sales reps somehow prevents such focus.

just my speculation,

     erik g.

    Erik, your speculation is very close to the reality.
    
    Choy Heng-Wah, Singapore SWS, sales support.

    In early 1988, I transferred to PSS after 2 years doing Sales Support. 
    Erik's analysis of the SS role is painfully correct.  The reaction I'm
    hearing form a lot of my former SS colleagues is that they're afraid of
    bcoming permanent "junior sales reps" -- losing their technical edge
    and being unable to advance either in Sales or in a technical position. 
    One SW Spec. IV of my acquaintance thought the answer might be to
    actually transfer into Sales.  No way! The cut in pay from SS IV to
    Sales Trainee was just too large and Sales wouldn't have him/her at the
    higher salary.
    
    Thanks for raising the issue, Steve.  I'm not sure what the solution is,
    if there is one...
    
    -dave

    I too have moved from 5 years of sales support, to 3 years of PSS and
    am now preparing to move back into sales support for awhile (higher
    visibility, faster track...), and from what I remember, the sales
    support role is really what you make it.. as for a career path I am
    concerned that we hired in alot of people at high positions, possibly
    putting a 'cap' on how high I can go - in any event, I agree with
    Steve that relocation/leaving DEC to work with customers may be my only
    options 'down the road a few years from now' - not that I'm seriously
    entertaining those notions now.. Digital does need to provide some sort 
    of well defined path for growth within sales support that is NOT
    centered in the DCC's or ACT's or area HQ's - lets face it, if
    a district wants to keep their good people, they have to be rewarded,
    otherwise those of us who want to continue to grow will have to make
    the 'hard choices', and we WILL make them....
    
    Ah wel, time to get back to the salt mines ... :-)#

    This topic sure hit a nerve... I'll limit my comments to the fact that
    this problem is not simply a SS problem, having worked in SS and PSS
    (the last 5 years in PSS), I'd say that the problem is *worse* in PSS.
    
    Susan

    This topic is interesting and is coming out at just the right time. 
    I'm considering a move to an SS position in the field at a DCC, but
    after reading this topic, I have a question: is it just my
    interpretation of my interview notes & reading the 'official req', or
    is it really possible (read: "actually done these days") for a person
    to do *both* SS and PSS work?  It appears to me that the req calls for
    the person to do both in approximately equal proportions, but is that
    reality or merely 'advertising hype'?
    
    Jon

RE: .6

>    is it really possible (read: "actually done these days") for a person
>    to do *both* SS and PSS work?  It appears to me that the req calls for
>    the person to do both in approximately equal proportions, but is that
>    reality or merely 'advertising hype'?
    
My observeration is YES is is possible to do *both* SS and PSS work.
However, I make the following qualifications:

o PSS work in the SS District sense is not done.  The developement type
work in the DCCs seems to be semi-custom "product" type work, prototypes,
and demos.  I don't think you will find DCC people doing residencies or
the project type that is done by districts.

o It seems that people primarily do either "PSS" work or "SS" work at
any given time.

o My impression is that most of the work is SS type.  If you want to do
both you would have to set yourself up in a position to do both.

Also, my observation is that I see few of the problems described in the
base note and most of the replies in [my] DCC.  The environment is
completely different than an SS District.  Except for the money of
course, I think people are generally very happy around here.

John

    I started out doing PSS (on a residency) but wound up doing ad hoc
    Sales Support from time to time.  After a while I switched to SS and
    now do PSS from time to time.
    
    In fact, our District has a fairly unique attitude of having Software
    Specialists "deliver what the sold".  In other words, I may work as in
    Sales Support role for a large proposal effort.  If we win, then I also
    work as a Project Manager, Project Leader or Project Staff on the
    effort that I helped to sell.  Not only does it break the monotony, but
    it helps to keep me from proposing something that won't work.
    
    Dave

    Hi Steve (and regards to Pat)-
    
    This might provoke a verrrrry interesting discussion if posted in:
    
    	CAADC::SALES_SUPPORT
    
    This whole topic should be taken in perspective by looking at: the
    history of SWS, the current reporting structures of Sales Support and
    PSS, the relationships between the DCC's and the geographies, the
    'transition' of SWS into EIS, and some rumors of a recent memo (that
    people have heard of but no one has seen) on the subject of the future
    of Sales Support.
    
    	-Barry-
    
    

	The biggest frustration Sales Support people experience is in the 
"reward" disparities, IMHO.  Seeing Salespeople go on 2-week junkets and get 
"bonuses" for achieving numbers, then to have go through a very subjective, 
selection process for Excellence awards having been a part of successful Sales 
efforts has torqued me from time to time over the last 14 years.  To those
"senior" people we hired en-mass in the last 5 years from places that didn't
do things like this, it must really be frustrating.  At least the party is in
one place for everyone this year, even if the metrics aren't!

	I think that a move to empowered account management by ONE person 
leading a team of Sales reps, EIS, Industry Cons., Customer Services, etc. is 
where we must go to get rid of these stovepipes.  The team gets the reward, if 
any, as a team.   We are seeing the first inklings now in the assignment of 
revenue generation responsibility to the geographic and industry districts, 
those people closest to the customer.

	Anyway, whenever anyone asks me what I think about a job other than 
the one they have now, I ask them if they would be closer or farther away from 
the customer in that job.  I recommend closer!  Having your hands on the 
customers' open checkbook is a very powerful position, and I bet it gets more 
so!

    Interesting topic.  I'm an EIS (a.k.a. SWS) Consultant 1, doing mostly
    Sales Support since '85, here in Tampa.  Barry, this may touch on your
    rumored memo: I report directly to a sales manager - not Software.  In
    fact, several of us in Florida are doing this in a 'pilot' program.
    
    As usual, the metrics stink.  I find nothing equitable about Sales
    receiving SP2 bonuses, when Sales Support gets zip.  That's just not
    fair.  Period.  If I'm in Sales, then dammit I expect the same pay
    scale  and the same award structure. 
    
    Technical expertise is also an issue - there are only two levels of
    Consultant above mine, and I don't know ANY Consultant 3's who are
    technoids like me.  None.  Not an encouraging career path.
    
    I've had zero luck with the so-called Industry Consultants we hired a
    few years ago, but that my just be my own bad luck. 
    
    On the positive side, the sales manager I report to is an old friend of
    mine, and I'd rather have that than a stranger, or worse. 
    Unfortunately, like the old line about relatives, you can't pick your
    manager, usually.
    
    Sales Support is often a risky venture, while the rewards are few. 
    There are few technical career path options, significant career risks
    involved in building QUALITY customer solutions, little or no rewards
    of any substance (I like the plaques, but I'd prefer a check), and
    absolutely no authority to get anything done.  Something needs to be
    done about this.  Personally, I'm not very optimistic.
    

    REF:         <<< Note 1094.11 by SCAM::GRADY "tim grady" >>>

    >><<As usual, the metrics stink.  I find nothing equitable about Sales
    receiving SP2 bonuses, when Sales Support gets zip.  That's just not
    fair.  Period.  If I'm in Sales, then dammit I expect the same pay
    scale  and the same award structure.>>
    
    Rumor has it (Digital Review?) that SALES this summer will be given
    commissions. 
    

    I find our matrix managment approach to be the biggest career blocker
    of all.  I frequently get calls from the local district, and from
    districts around the country, to do manufacturing consulting because of
    my expertise and reputation in this area.  But because the matrix
    managment approach allows me to virtually go anywhere and do anything,
    there is nothing to incent anyone to add me to their payroll and
    promote me.  I am viewed as a "free" corporate resource.
    
    I am coming to the conclusion that most DECCIES are destined to remain
    at the level they hired in at, and that the only way to get ahead is to
    leave.

    
    Same pay scale? Ha!
    
    There's a $25K top end difference between a SWS Consultant I and a
    Sales Exec I! Certainly makes you wonder, doesn't it? Don't get me
    wrong - there's a lot of headaches in a sales job but they also dump a
    lot of them on the first capable software person they see...
    
    -Ray
    

    re .12
    
    According to the interview with Ken, printed in yesterday's
    Worcester(MA) Sunday Telegram, there are NO plans to place
    sales on a commission. This has been Ken's opinion for a very
    long time. "A sales force on commission is not necessarily the
    right decision from the customer perspective."
    
    Bob Mc

    re -.1;
    
    I'd find that quote a bit easier to swallow if our sales people weren't
    goaled almost solely on revenue.
    
    
    -dave

    "Goaled"???????

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

    re .16

    Technically, it's certs (cretified orders, ones customers have signed).
    Nothing to do revenue. Personally, I'd like to see *profit* in there
    somewhere as well.

    /petes

    re .16,.17;
    
    Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.  I'm going out to have my verb
    generator excised!  The only excuse I can offer is that I've been
    attending a lot of Sales meetings lately ;^)
    
    -dave

    In English, any noun can be verbed.  Even Shakespeare did it.

    re: .18
    
    Sales people should NOT be measured on profit!  They get paid to do one
    thing and one thing only - sell our products.  The people who design,
    manufacture, and price the products are paid to worry about whether or not
    they are profitable.  Sales people, for the most part, don't have any
    control over the cost of the products.  Put another way, it's not the 
    sales persons fault if customers want to buy less profitable products.
    
    Sales management will, starting next year, be measured on something
    called ROR (return on responsibility).  This is essentially what
    percentage of the value of CERTS are realized above the unit, i.e.
    (CERTS-Cost of sale)/CERTS.  It gives the sales force an incentive to
    manage the controllable costs.
    
    Now, if you want to suggest that the service branches surrender their
    operations management function, then you're cooking with gas.  Sooner
    or later we've got to start doing what's right for Digital, not the
    special interests of one or two stovepipes.
    
    Al
    

    re .21

    Mea culpa for getting sidetracked. It's just that I don't think sales
    people who sell projects (combo hardware/software/services) that are
    a net loss to DEC should go to DEC 100.

    /petes    

    Amen to .21, Al.  My wife (at the time representing a manufacturer)
    worked with a distributor that paid its reps commissions based on gross
    profit margin (i.e., you get 2%of the selling price on item A and 3.5%
    on item B).
    
    This looked sensible, and in the short term provided better profits and
    happier sales reps.  In the long term, customer satisfaction suffered. 
    The customer got the feeling that the sales rep had a hidden agenda --
    and he/she did!
    
    
    -dave

RE: .21

While I agree that sales people should not be measured on profitability
sales management should.  Next to cost of administration, cost of sales
is the biggest management problem within Digital.  I have seen cases
where two to four man weeks have been spent on writing proposals for
$60,000 MicroVAX sales because managers though a formal custom written
proposals were in order.  Such sales are Pyric victories.

John

    re: .24
    
    That is what will happen in FY 91 - Sales managment will be expected to
    manage the costs under their control such as headcount, facilities,
    travel, training, sales support, rotation/consignment, etc.
    
    That is NOT the same as dinging them for selling more VAXstations than
    6000's.  No one in Sales can help it that it costs more to
    manufacture a small system relative to the selling price than a big
    system, nor can they help it that there is a more competetive
    market for some products.
    
    Al
    

We seem to be ranging far afield from the original topic -- blocking
of career advancement by districts.  Is it "doing the right thing" by
our employee to restrict advancement within a specific geography, such
that the only way to advance is to either leave the company or pursue
a long-distance relocation?

    Re: .10  (I know it's a bit late...)
    
    As one of those 'senior people' hired in the last five years, the
    frustration is not with the sales rewards being significantly larger,
    it is with Digital supplying a line of BS during the interviewing
    process about how valuable our experience will be and, once we're
    on board, treating us like we just got out of school and it's our
    first job!
    
    I get negative comments on my business judgement from people as
    high as subsidiary VP's who, IM-not-so-HO haven't the acumen to
    run a newstand and prove it daily!  But, to get ahead, I'm supposed
    to sit down & shut-up (an apparent impossibility) and wait another
    10 years.   Presumably this is so I will become digitized, smilingly
    apologizing for our 'stovepipes' rather than say the terrible things
    I do now, like:  "Mr. Xxx is doing things not in the bests interests
    of this company.  Please have him straighten out or leave."
                     
    And if you want to see your career REALLY blocked, just try pointing
    fingers at a DM or higher level when one of the 'good ol' boys'
    acts like a donkey!
    
    You know you're right when they attack the fact that you say things
    not the things you say.
    
    
    Don
    say.
    

    re .27

    Well, there's not much I can add to that. That is the key to the kind
    of career blocking that can happen here. You're a professional. You're
    experienced. Your boss tells you

    	(1) F___ doing the "right thing for Digital" do the right thing for
    	    me
    or
    	(2) You know, being as objective about the situation as can be, that
    	    your manager is plain wrong.

    So, what is your preferred method of losing sleep?

    	(1) Do the wrong thing and watch something go down the tubes,
    or
    	(2) Do the right thing and watch management screw your career.

    Meanwhile, the people who are inept, except at politicking their way
    ahead, do the wrong thing and don't lose sleep. And when their boss
    tries to blame them when things finally do go wrong, they just say,
    "Yes, but I did exactly as you told me" and get rewarded for their
    "loyalty."

    I've witnessed all of these.

    /Peters

    Surely its not ALL doom & gloom. Don't you find sometimes that you
    do the 'wrong thing' directed by your manager and it turns out OK?
    
    It begins to sound as though the only people who have the correct
    solutions to problems are always in the subordinate position and
    those 'above' are dolts.
    Calvin

    Re: .28 What do you do?
    
    What Digital pays me for, and so far, no promotions - and I'd get
    a good night's sleep if I only had some time...
    
    
    Re: .29  "It begins to sound..."
    
    The problem is not that *all* the above are dolts.  The problem
    is that the 'loose cannon' or 'not a team player' tag is attached
    	a) at first instance of percieved 'threat to status quo';
    	b) without you knowing it at the time;
    	c) with crazy glue and epoxy.
    
    The result is that one or two critical comments per year brand you
    unpromotable.  Now, tell me there aren't two things the company
    appears to handle incorrectly in any given fiscal year...
    
    Don
    

Re: .30

>    The problem
>    is that the 'loose cannon' or 'not a team player' tag is attached
...
>    	b) without you knowing it at the time;

This is rather insidious: you could potentially waste several years of your
life before you realized that you were working for the wrong group.  The best
defense is to have a clear idea of what your career goals are, and if you're
up against a brick wall to realize that it's time to move on.

				-- Bob

    re .30

>   The result is that one or two critical comments per year brand you
>   unpromotable.  Now, tell me there aren't two things the company
>   appears to handle incorrectly in any given fiscal year...

    About a year ago, I was one of the "moving forces" in getting an
    extremely successfull month-long ACT event staged. I was the senior
    technical person (with my own tasks), but also supported the group,
    and held everything together when the project manager was out sick the
    entire month before the event started. I even had to be the morale
    booster to nullify some poor people management by one of the regular
    managers involved. And, to get this all done, I worked twelve hour
    days for at least a month.

    My DM's ENTIRE comment on my performance on this project? "A good
    hacking job. I don't mean to insult you, but that's all it was."

    I have had people forward that EXACT SAME COMMENT to me from other
    managers in our area that I have NEVER WORKED WITH. 

    When that happenned, I called up my then new boss and told him in no
    uncertain terms, including explitives, that I expect my DM to keep such
    comments to himself.

    I haven't heard any since, but you never know.
    
    /Peters