Conference 7.286::digital

	Call for a meeting with UM, DM, and Personnel. Ask them for an
	explaination of why your raises do not appear to be justified by
	your reviews. If answers are not clear and logical ask for a
	meeting with who ever is your DMs boss. Also ask to see your file.
	In most contries one has the right to see it. I think you need to
	know if there is something there that no one has told you about.

	At the same time I'd be looking for an other job in DEC. You've
	been told, through action if not word, that they don't want you
	there. If you don't see anyway to change their minds about you
	find someone with an open mind.

	If all this fails hang on, give them what they are paying you for,
	(which may be less than you're doing now), and than when you can
	handle it look outside DEC. But I'd try pretty hard inside DEC
	first because I've worked else where and didn't like it.

			Alfred

    Hi,
    Sorry state of affairs and you surely don't need the negative energy
    pressures that both UM1 and UM2 seem to be putting on you.
    
    My brief advice is to attempt to find the priot-to-UM1 manager and
    seek his/her advice or counsel. He/she sounds like someone that
    values people, knows how to create an excellent work envioronment
    and still get promoted! Any other attempt to resolve the current
    work conditions may just cause you additional pain.
    
    Sorry to hear such stories and they should be rare at our company.
    Good luck at work and in your personal life.
    Tom

                It's obvious that you need support, even if not direct
        support, but only moral support.
                
                I heartily second the previous response to go see your
        original manager (the great one) for an INFORMAL talk, probably
        even after hours (buy them dinner?, lunch?, whatever). You are
        looking for two things. First, a sanity check on what's going
        on. Second, some advice on what to do next. Remember - you are
        NOT looking for direct intervention on their part, and you
        should be careful not to lead them into them that you are. (If
        they offer, be careful - make sure that it will help and not
        hurt.)
                
                I really cannot offer any direct advice as my somewhat
        similiar situation work out well and relatively easily (you are
        far past what I went through), but you should be talking to as
        many people as you trust about the situation and the fact that
        you are looking for a position (grapevine positions are usually
        the best - they go before they are posted!). And don't look down
        on someone who just wants to commiserate with you - they do help
        lighten your load. Sometimes it's not much, but it does help.
                
                The best I can say here is "Good Luck". You will need
        some, but preserverence also pays off most of the time.
                
                /s/     Bob

    Well, I'm not sure how analagous the situations are, but I can
    empathize with you.  I have, within the past 6 months, had what I
    regard as a similar experience.  
    
    I had UM that I had a good relationship with.  He was able to motivate
    under adverse conditions, provided a lot of feedback (both the positive
    and negative when required without destroying a specialist's
    motivation), had a pretty good understanding of what PSS specialists go
    through to do their jobs, and believed that reviews should NEVER have
    any surprises.  
    
    As a delivery unit, we were working on developing teamwork and esprit'
    de corps, attempting to find projects so we could get out of the body
    shop business, and trying to develop decent morale and working
    relationships.  Things here weren't perfect, but we were trying.  I
    personally had consistent excellent performance reviews (from him and
    the other 4 UMs I've previously had), never receiving less than a 2 and
    several times being told I was very close to a 1 performer.  Raises and
    promotions were comensurate.  
    
    He took a job elsewhere in the company.  Unfortunately, things didn't
    continue.  My last review, despite a long list of accomplishments, was
    the most negative experience I've had within the company.  The
    accomplishments were completely ignored and completely overwhelmed by
    the negative feedback on the review.  Things went so far that at one
    point it was suggested that perhaps I might want to seek employment
    elsewhere.  I am now a "3".
    
    I had a conversation with the DM about the situation.  Not particularly
    positive or negative.  He indicated that he'd have a word with the UM
    but there don't seem to have been much in the way of positive changes.  
    
    The two customers I dealt with over the past year gave me a 10.0 and a
    9.7 on the customer survey.  AND THE 9.7 HAD TO DO WITH A MANAGEMENT
    ISSUE!  Needless to say, despite the large amount of noise about
    customer satisfaction, there was NO loud outcry of appreciation,
    reward, or even recognition.  The responses from management?...  "Oh,
    congrats" and "Well, that was fine, but it was LAST YEARs business"!
    
    Now I'm at another customer site for an indeterminate stay.  Things
    have deteriorated to the point where its FAR safer to keep the head
    down and quietly do my job (but thats another story).  Waiting for the
    wind to shift back to having managers that care about the people that
    actually do the work than the total concern about the bottom line to
    the exclusion of all else.  I hope I'm here to see it.

    Re: .0
    
    Seems like another of those incidents that should be taken all the way
    to the 'top'.  Doesn't it make everyone feel 'sad' that note after
    note, we hear about how "valuable" employees suddenly become *unpopular* 
    with the local management and suffer mental agony due to the mgmt's
    personal vendetta ??  Maybe most readers do not take these things
    seriously (I also may not have, considering the excellent experience I
    have with my mgmt, until my wife had a similar *bad* experience).
    
    In my opinion, you should not stop at the DM.  Document your case
    thoroughly and use the ODP all the way to the top - Corp Employee
    Relations; the VP of your group (both your chain of command and the
    Personnel chain); even John Sims/Jack Shields if necessary (I presume
    you are in that branch).  From your description, it seems like there
    have been some clear case of discrimination which you can prove -
    document them properly, not missing any details.
    
    Please, don't quit in frustration: that's the last thing you want to
    do.  Since there is nothing 'officially' against you and you have been
    an above-average performer, things are in your favor.  Do not let the
    'irritants' get to you - Believe in yourself and stand up for your
    rights.
    
    If you want more support or help, contact me by e-mail.
    
    - mayank

    You'll just have to accept that maybe one out ten managers are
    competent managers. It's a really tough thing to be good manager. It
    takes both the right type of personality and experience. Good managers
    are rare gems to be cherished while you have them. But you're going to
    spend most of life working under ... rather than gems. That's reality
    buddy. Get used to it. Look for ways to work cope and succeed in the
    *typical* environment.
    
    Also, check the winds. Ask your UM and DM what they would say to people
    checking your references. If favorable, then you could interpret that
    as meaning they just want you out of their group. If unfavorable,
    they're unofficially telling you they want you out of company -- and
    means they really after you and will make life increasingly miserable
    until you're gone. If you do look around, ask the person checking
    references what they said about you. Don't be at suprised at what you
    hear. Just hear it! And take appropriate actions.
    
    -George

    Re .6
    
    Wow, George.  You really are something, aren't you ? You call what this
    person is facing as a *typical* environment ??  And you coldly suggest
    that they keep quiet about the injustices and silently *try* to move to
    another group ?? (you make it sound like the managers would be doing
    this person a FAVOR by letting him move to another group, rather than
    drive him/her out of the company).  I know the managers would love you
    for your views - that's what they want: to make you believe that they
    are doing you a favor!!!
    
    But in a employment situation, NO ONE is doing anyone a favor - its a
    two-way exchange, buddy.  Remember, you are talking about a good
    performer, i.e. a VALUABLE ASSET to this company.  And you want people
    like this UM and DM to blatantly ruin this person's career without any
    retribution ??  
    
    You are someone who is ready to completely ignore all that DIGITAL
    stands for.... I only hope that you are not a manager ...
    
    - mayank
    

    Yes, in Digital, we're all valuable contributors, equal to UMs and DMs.
    Two sided contribution, and all that other idealistic stuff. Okay. Now
    that we've payed our respects to the great ideals. Let's get pragmatic.
    
    99% of time you will lose in a battle with management. We're all equal,
    except management is more equal (valued by upper management) than
    others. Unless the UM or DM did some flagrant violation of company
    policy, you will lose! Calculate the probability of winning and the
    cost to you even if you do win. Moving on to another group is one
    option. Another is putting into black & white a signed agreement what
    you must do to get the next big raise/promotion. But there's no sense
    fighting battles you'll lose -- discretion being the better part of
    valor.
    
    -George

    re .8
    
    Sorry, George.  99% of the time YOU will lose in a battle with
    management.  Not all have the same record.  Please do not extrapolate
    your experience to mine.  I've lost some and won some - better than even 
    odds so far (hope the hubris doesn't result in the usual punishment.)
    
    /Dave

>    Yes, in Digital, we're all valuable contributors, equal to UMs and DMs.
>    Two sided contribution, and all that other idealistic stuff. Okay. Now
>    that we've payed our respects to the great ideals. Let's get pragmatic.
    
    So what you are saying is that all those things which KO and others 
    espouse is all 'idealistic BS'; and that middle/lower mgmt does not
    care a hoot and yet thrives (99% of it).  .9 said the correct thing: 
    pls speak for yourself!!
    
>    others. Unless the UM or DM did some flagrant violation of company
>    policy, you will lose! Calculate the probability of winning and the
>    cost to you even if you do win. 
    
    Isn't it obvious to you from .0 that they *did* violate company values,
    policies and ethics ?
    And what about the tremendous cost already paid in the 'silent suffering'?
    and the cost this person is still paying in terms of misery ?
    
    >  Moving on to another group is one option. 
    
    Yes, certainly. and that's what we would all suggest to this person.
    But do it with dignity & self-respect by standing up for your rights.
    And certainly not by giving the mgmt the confirmation that they are
    doing *you* a favor.
    
>    But there's no sense
>    fighting battles you'll lose -- discretion being the better part of
>    valor.
    
    George, even in DEC, unless *you* stand up for your rights, no one is
    going to hand them to you on a platter...
    
    Tell me - according to your own definition, you should either learn to
    live with 9/10 bad managers, or run to another group.  How long can you
    keep suffering in silence, or keep running ?
    

re.last few:

I've done both, stood and fought and cut and run, in both situations I 
believe I came out a winner. There are _areas_ of this company that suffer 
from the kind of manager described in .0, it is an organisation wide 
problem. There are other areas which live by the company philosophy. In 
environment 1, I am liable to cut and run, in 2 I'll stand and fight.

Dave.

               	
 Perhaps the situations related here and in other notes  (eg., 767) are a
 perverse result of Digital's success. DEC *HAS* been so successful that
 management has had the luxury of using other criteria than performance to 
 measure and reward employees. This would not happen in an organization where
 a manager could succeed only through the contributions of outstanding
 employees. 

 Has anyone heard of similar stories in the smalll consulting companies that
 compete against DEC SWS at 50% of our rates ? These organizations live or
 die on the work product of each employee. Those that don't contribute are
 OUT. Those that do are appreciated.

 I have heard far fewer horror stories from MEM (Manufacturing/Engineering/
 Marketing) than from the field. Perhaps it's because of greater employee
 mobility, or because of greater peer pressure on managers to conform to some
 accepted norms of behavior. 

 If this thesis is true, perhaps the dark cloud of hard times for DEC will
 have a silver lining.......

    Reading .0 makes me sad, because even in the field, I've had some
    gems for managers.  I hope that this situation doesn't drive .0
    from Digital.  It seems like they are trying very hard to do right
    by Digital.
    
    I would have two responses:  If it is possible, transfer completely
    out of the DM's control (and influence, if possible).  If geography
    presents a severe obstacle (can't move because of family member
    and present unit is the "only game in town", etc.) maybe a temporary
    jump between orgs (SWS -> Sales -> FS, whatever) would be possible.
    If none of that is reasonable at this time, start scouting out your
    next position NOW.  Make connections privately and informally. 
    Get your name known in the circles where you would like to work.
    Then, when you are able to make the move, it will be all lined up
    and waiting.  It would also give you something to do that you could
    see as making your life better in the long run.  Having a game plan
    does wonders for your morale.
    
    My second response (second due to lower probability of success given
    what has gone on) would be to sit down with the DM, who appears
    to be the one with the beef at this point, and try to get a list
    of all the things that (s)he has against you. (We seem to be on
    bad footing, what can I do to get back in good standing with you?)
    Then DOCUMENT EVERYTHING and attempt to disprove every one of the
    DM's allegations.  You seem to suspect that his belief that you are using
    drugs is part of the core problem.  If your own morals/beliefs allow
    you to do this, getting your own, independant drug test would probably
    go a long ways toward putting that issue to bed.  NO FLAMES FROM
    THE "DRUG TESTING" NOTE!  This is purely voluntary, and indeed would
    constitute bending way over backwards.  Maybe it would be worth
    it to have a good working environment again.  It would appear that
    UM1 poisoned the waters with your DM, and DM has not let go of those
    pieces of misinformation.
    
    Good luck, and keep trying!
    Kevin

Starting from the assumption that .0 is an accurate description...

Since the description in .0 implies you are in the field, I'd suggest you
start looking to get out, either to another district if the DM is involved or
further afield (e.g. corporate or outside DEC)

If you choose to fight, remember that in a district or region (or whatever the
next level up is called these days) you are fighting a pyramid power structure
and it WILL close ranks against you. You will need to determine how far up the
influence of your UM and DM spreads and try to go higher.

Personally, I think that even if you win, you will lose unless you are so
successful as to have the DM and UM replaced. I know this sounds very cynical,
but I've seen and felt the results of the sort of problems you describe. I do
not think the ODP works at all in the field unless you can find that rare
commodity, a good manager. If you succeed in getting your problems acknowledged,
I'd suggest you consider a transfer if at all possible.

One difference I have noted since moving from field positions to corporate
positions is that peer pressure from other, competing managers tends to keep
things more honest and the more matrix oriented management structure allows
things like ODP to work.

I would not give your current UM or DM ANY indication of interest in looking
elsewhere for a job until you have to. Remember, you trusted you current UM
once....

In general, I'd be wary of friends who become managers, at least in the field.
Very few go into MOSO and FMDP and come out unchanged.

I don't know if you can request to see a copy of your personnel file, but if you
can you should do so, although it will make your current management even more
annoyed. In the current atmosphere of paranoia, you want to be certain that no
reference of 'suspected drug use' appears in your file. Of course, this assumes
that your local personnel people won't lie to you (and they are a part of the
management pyramid too...).

You may wish to consult a lawyer that specialises in employee relation problems.
In particular, you want to be ready if a prospective employer calls your UM or
DM for a reference and they say "Oh yeah, we got rid of xxxxxx because we 
suspected a drug problem" or "Yeah, xxxxx just couldn't take direction or work
in a team", etc, etc. It happens, and just because they shafted you once, it
doesn't mean they won't do it again.

gary

    I've never been a manager so I've never been officially exposed to the
    rules that apply, but this is my understanding:
    
    Digital confirms employment, period. No employee is authorized to
    comment beyond that: no salary data, no performance appraisals, no
    skill list, etc.

    > I've never been a manager so I've never been officially exposed to the
    > rules that apply, but this is my understanding:
    
    > Digital confirms employment, period. No employee is authorized to
    > comment beyond that: no salary data, no performance appraisals, no
    > skill list, etc.
    
    The *Personnel* organization will confirm nothing other than employment
    without written approval from the employee.  For example, when we
    applied for our mortgage we had to authorize Personnel to confirm our
    salaries when the mortgage company called; without that authorization
    they would have refused.
    
    A former manager is likely to say whatever he/she wants when called.  I
    was a UM for 4 years and don't remember ever seeing or hearing anything
    about what to say or not to say when called for a reference on a former
    employee.
    
    							Pat

    

    
    1. I work in Personnel, and used to be a PSA. ANY
    employee may review their Personnel file, and this
    should not include management involvement. They 
    may be reviewing old jobs for a resume, collecting
    dates of transfers, job codes. They DO NOT need
    to say why. 
    
    2. I am surprised no one mentioned EAP. Given that 
    the manager "insinuated" a drug problem ( and DEC;s
    unwritten policy is to HELP such people who do
    by providing/recommending treatment facilities) 
    and the person is going through the traumatic
    experience of an impending family death, a COUNSELOR
    trained in dealing with stress is needed to step in. 
    
    Personnel consultants are not trained and certified
    counselors in mental health. They may have some 
    background courses, but they are there to interpret
    policy and solve managerial and/or employee conflicts.
    
    
    This situation has turned into much more than a conflict
    of views. EAP could talk with the employee and perhaps
    talk with the individuals involved to get some sense
    of what is going on. I have a feeling more objectivity
    would come from them than a local personnel group. Not 
    to insult local personnel, but sitting with the troops
    and knowing the politics of the group can be a problem. 
         
    The last thing I want to mention is - can't you see this
    person desperately needs to do what is right for them? 
    I know I would not want to leave a group on such 
    a horrible note. I think this person is saying that
    being forced to give in is failure, and will 
    this ultimately follow them?  I would try my best
    to find the right people to help me fix it.  
    
    I hope these suggestions help. 
                                                

    I too recommend EAP - from personal experience.
    
    Our daughter needed psychiatric help and was over the age where our
    insurance was in effect.  Believe me, this is a tough situation to be
    in with lots of stress!  The way personal protection laws are now
    written it is extremely difficult to influence public health
    organizations in the case of adults, regardless of relationship or
    one's percieved seriousness of a situation. 
    
    In a couple of phone calls, EAP gave me a whole new slant on how I was
    trying to deal with the situation.  Following their advice started
    the ball rolling in the right direction.
    
    Try it.  It is entirely confidential and no one will hear of your
    involvement unless you tell them.

    Fred

    Just a few suggestions about what's been said here....
    
    1.  A prudent person who is asked to give references will most
    definitely stay away from bad comments unless he/she is prepared
    to back them up.  In New Hampshire, defamation of character is a
    criminal offense.
    
    2.  Don't leave Ken Olsen off your Distribution List for complaints.
     
    3.  Constructive Discharge is unlawful.  If all else fails, contact
    the National Labor Relations Board, U.S. Department of Labor.  (I
    assume we're discussing a US employee.)  In Boston, the Department
    of Labor is in the Tip O'Neil Federal Building, 617-565-6710, ask
    for the on-duty Information Officer.  Otherwise, the main office
    is at 1717 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington DC 20570, 202-632-4950.
    
    And watch your back.
    
    -- Don Black

Re: .20

>    3.  Constructive Discharge is unlawful.  If all else fails, contact
>    the National Labor Relations Board, U.S. Department of Labor.

What is Constructive Discharge?

				-- Bob

    > What is Constructive Discharge?
    
    Sh*tting bricks?

    Re: .21:
    
>   What is Constructive Discharge?
    
    That's when a NODdy is asked: "Why you do something constructive for a
    change?  Leave the company!"
    

    I've known managers and their groups in both hardware engineering and
    software engineering that had very large turnovers in subordinates.
    Those managers are still running the same groups years later and
    promoted to boot. Yes, many of those employees tried to fight. Even if
    you "win", and the manager isn't fired, you have to continue working
    under someone is who even madder at you, i.e., you really lost.
    
    I talked to guy in industry marketing that told me had a stack resumes
    an inch thick from people under some certain product managers. The
    managers are still here, some of the people are gone. Others, can't
    find a way out. Those groups are still having problems because they're
    measured on revenues and market share. Of course, it's incompetence of
    the employees that market share fell and not the managers. So, the
    managers will fix things by having another reorg... And of course, in
    none of the reorgs did they ask the workers what they thought was
    needed to turn things around -- management knows more than them about
    how to fix things.
    
    When you pick a battle with management, pick it very carefully and have
    fall back plans to with your battle plan. Fighting a 600lb. grizzly
    bear isn't courage, it's stupid -- unless you have a big gun or a fast
    exit out of the cage.
    
    -George

    re .24
    
    George, you are a pessimist.  I read of a grizzly bear that was killed 
    with rocks by a railroad track inspector with a (probably very very) very 
    good arm.  Few managers are as tough as a grizzly bear -).
    
    You are right.  A fight requires good planning, good documentation,
    good position, AND determination.  You should also be right, and that
    can be a problem in an interaction between people.  A win is not
    assured (and in some cases, not desirable).  Despite my twitting you 
    I have had to "cut and run".  Strange thing is that the manager in the 
    job I most desperately had to flee *loved* my performance.  But being a 
    firefighter when the boss is an arsonist (not literally, of course) can 
    be a real killer.  Sigh...  I got lots of money for it too.  But I 
    wouldn't have lived to enjoy the proceeds very long.
    
    /Dave

re .16:

I am a manager, and I have been told quite clearly by Digital Personnel 
that if I am asked for a reference by a non-Digital person, I am to
refer that person to Personnel. I am not to answer any questions whatsoever.
See the section entitled External Disclosure in Company Policy 6.18. Normally,
Personnel will only verify that the person is/was employed by Digital, the
dates of employment, and the last position held as given by the questioner
(ie, yes, s/he was/was not a senior engineer as claimed -- as I read the
policy Personnel is not to give the correct position if the questioner has it
wrong). There are limited exceptions to this.

    re .21
    
    Constructive Dismissal (discharge?) is when the employee is forced to
    resign due to pressure from management who would really like to fire
    that employee but havn't got proper grounds to do so.
    
    I think this happens far more than we would ever like to believe.
    Sometimes, the pressure can be very, very subtle but over a period of
    time, it has the desired effect. 
    
    Jon

>    Constructive Dismissal (discharge?) is when the employee is forced to
>    resign due to pressure from management who would really like to fire
>    that employee but havn't got proper grounds to do so.
    
    In the absence of an "official" definition, I like your description. It
    properly sums up the *bad* experiences that people have described, and
    applies to .0 very well.
    
>    I think this happens far more than we would ever like to believe.
>    Sometimes, the pressure can be very, very subtle but over a period of
>    time, it has the desired effect. 
    
    Yes, this is the frightening reality.  That's where the employee should
    either (a) "cut and run" i.e. transfer out of the management's locus of
    influence, or (b) invoke the ODP and pursue it right to the *top*, if
    necessary. (and we know that it has been necessary in some cases :^( )
    
    After all, Constructive Discharge should NOT be allowed in Digital !!
    
    - mayank

================================================================================
Note 889.20       What do you do if they *are* out to get you?          20 of 28
SALEM::BLACK                                         19 lines  18-AUG-1989 12:17
                           -< And from up north.... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       Just a few comments on what's been said here....
    
>>>2.  Don't leave Ken Olsen off your Distribution List for complaints.

WARNING: Having been involved in a bloodbath with an unsat manager, 
I have elevated to company officers. What they don't tell you is that 
every employee who contacts a company officer in writing gets a "special 
file" started on him/her. Call it a "special handling" file if you 
want. Personally, I think such a practice is reprehensible at best, and 
perhaps illegal as well. But be aware that it will occur to you if you 
contact KO or any other officer. How do I know? Personnel told me after 
I had contacted a senior VP regarding the bad situation in which I was 
at the time trapped.
     
>>>3.  Constructive Discharge is unlawful.  If all else fails, contact
>>>the National Labor Relations Board, U.S. Department of Labor.  (I
>>>assume we're discussing a US employee.)  In Boston, the Department
>>>of Labor is in the Tip O'Neil Federal Building, 617-565-6710, ask
>>>for the on-duty Information Officer.  Otherwise, the main office
>>>is at 1717 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington DC 20570, 202-632-4950.
   
I also sought relief in this manner re. the above mentioned bad situation.
I found that unless you are a member of a union, the NLRB is powerless to
help you, unless the manager has been stupid enough to commit a felony
before witnesses. I was able to pursue relief through the DoL since my
at-the-time manager was trying to hurt me for being a member of the
armed forces reserve, which *is* illegal. But unless you are covered
by a similar particular provision, the NLRB us useless for help at DEC.

>>> And watch your back.

Amen. Document *everything.* Insist on everything in writing. It will 
make the difference between winning and losing the fight.
    
Good luck -


kbs

       
       
       	If you are a member of the reserves and are recieving a hassle
       over it, then you should be letting your reserve unit fight your
       legal battles for you. Letting them know that DEC's policy is
       usually very generous when it comes to that wouldn't hurt either.
       (Just don't show them Company Confidential stuff like the P&P
       manual. That could get you in trouble)
       
       	As for the "special file", it doesn't completely surprise me. But
       then, I'm surprised when anyone has to go to the level of a senior
       VP to get the right thing done.  Is it Personnel that institutes
       the "special file"??
       
       	FWIW, I'm sure my name has been on a few lists over the
       years. I'm not terribly worried as I plan on being around for a
       long enough time to outlast those lists and to see the right thing
       get done.
       
       						mike

>       (Just don't show them Company Confidential stuff like the P&P
>       manual. That could get you in trouble)

Are you sure the Orange Book is confidential?  I'll have to go look at a
hard copy of it in the morning, but I don't think it is.

/john

    Re: .31
    
    Yes, the Orange book is absolutely and positively "For digital internal
    use only".  I have checked it out.
    
    Re: .30
    The sad situation that people have faced with *bad* (read: with
    perosnal vendetta) managers (that digital does not need) sometimes
    force an employee to use ODP all the way to a senior VP to get the
    RIGHT thing done.  The sad part is that only those with a "steel and
    iron" stomach can withstand the pressures of the ODP bull-pit.  This is
    because the mgrs of the *bad* mgr fully backs them up with no fear of
    being disciplined (read note 15.*).
    
    Re: .29
    The file maintained on you need not necessarily be bad (though it can
    be used in a damaging manner).  What kind of bad experience did you
    have with your file ??
    

    What good is the statement "Do the RIGHT thing" when people like in .0
    (and others) do not find it for yeeeaaars ?? - and when managers like 
    the DM in .0 get "promoted" on "non-people-skills" criteria and never
    "disciplined" for the blatant violations of Digital P&P ??
    
    - mayank

>    Yes, the Orange book is absolutely and positively "For digital internal
>    use only".  I have checked it out.

How did you check it out?  I checked it out, too, and reached a different
conclusion.

    -	No copies of it in any of the managers' offices in my area say
	anything about it being restricted in any way.

    -	It doesn't make sense for it to be restricted.  In any sort of
	personnel dispute, our policies need to be open for public
	inspection.

I know that the first page of the VTX screen says "Digital Internal Use Only"
but I don't believe everything computers tell me.

/john

re Orange Book:

In the copy on my shelf the first page is a memo form John Doherty in
Corporte Personnel. The memo says, in part, "All Digital employees
should have access to the Personnel Policies and Procedures Manual.
However, information contained in the manual should not be released to
any individual or organization outside the Company." This clearly
indicates that the Orange Book is company confidential (or whatever the
right phase is these days). 

>               <<< Note 889.35 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >>>
>                         -< Policies are confidential >-
    
> "All Digital employees
> should have access to the Personnel Policies and Procedures Manual."
    
    Then it must not be Digital Confidential.  That description sounds
    exactly like Digital Internal Use Only.
    
    These classifications are explained in the Orangebook.
    							Larry

    re .24, .25,
    
    No George, you are not a pessimist, you are a realist. I've been
    through a few battles myself (10 yrs at DEC), and I have scars to
    sho them too. Whether you choose to fight or not, you have already
    lost respect for the person whom you are fighting against. Once this
    happens (even if you do have a tough hide), its a pain working for
    someone you don't respect. And, if you do still respect this person
    and are still feverently trying to work things out (after 1+ yrs),
    then you are a fool and you have already lost. This does not imply
    that the manager is 'bad', it just implies that there is an obvious
    clash, somewhere. Remember the old saying "You can please some of
    the people, sometimes, you can please other people, other times, But
    you can't please everyone, all the time' (I know, this is not an
    exact quote, but it should get the point across).
    
    re. 0
    
    My unsolicited response to this matter is, try to learn something from
    this situation (ie., what is causing this clash?).  The scenery may
    change, people don't. Granted, mgmt obviously appears to be out to get
    you, and they are doing a pretty good job of succeeding, but this
    doesn't mean that they just singled you out of the group so they
    could harrass you. I suspect it has something to do with whatever it
    was you confided to the 2nd manager who discussed  your personal life
    with a subordinate. It seems that the harrassment started at about
    that time. Since you have stayed with this group for so long, I would
    have to assume that you are doing so because of your family sit. and
    you are in an area where there is not much room for movement (ie.,
    someplace where there is only 1 DEC facility).
    
    The other notes suggesting the use of EAP (Employee Assistance Program)
    looks like the best all around advice. Although they may not be able to
    alleviate the problem, they should be able to help you in dealing with
    the problem emotionally, and they are a great source of documentation
    if you should choose to go to court.
    
    Also, if your mgmt has negative feed back on your reviews, you can always
    refuse to sign them, or add your own comments in regards to the neg.
    feedback. This is another method of documentation. In reference to the
    'poor raise vs. good work', mgmt does salary planning yearly and has
    usually planned what you will get as a raise well ahead of your review
    (unless it occurs near the salary plan date (end of each fiscal year)).
    Therefore, even if you do quite well, mgmt will not usually go to bat
    for more money unless you score a '1' on your review.
    
    By the way, speaking of harrassment, there is actually a book out in
    personnel  titled "EEO" (white with green letters) that discusses DEC's
    policy on this type of problem.
    
    If you choose to fight, you're guaranteed that it will be bloody, not
    who will win.
    
    

    re .37
    
>    Whether you choose to fight or not, you have already
>    lost respect for the person whom you are fighting against. Once this
>    happens (even if you do have a tough hide), its a pain working for
>    someone you don't respect.
    
    Its not a question of fighting and continuing to work under the same
    person: that's lunacy.  But there's definitely a *huge* cost in trying
    to leave silently too !!!  Not only to your self-respect and dignity
    (in suffering silently), but also in terms of perf & salary review,
    poor reference from the mgr who is troubling you, etc. etc.  And
    remember that not everyone *has* the luxury of being able to leave and
    join another group very easily (as in .0's case).
    
    So, you have to fight by standing up for your rights (no one else will
    do that for you) and meanwhile, also look actively for another job. 
    That way, you are not "running away", but walking out with Dignity.
    Sure you'll scars from that, but atleast they won't be hidden inside
    you.
    
>    If you choose to fight, you're guaranteed that it will be bloody, not
>    who will win.
    
    You are absolutely right!!!  Company P&P are not always upheld in the
    proper manner!  But if you don't choose to fight and allow the *bad* 
    element to walk all over you, who is guaranteed a WIN ??
    

    If I may...
    
    Any job is only a job, and it's a trap to let it become more important
    than that.  If life circumstances absolutely prohibit (for financial
    reasons or whatever) a change in the short term, decide to make
    a change in the long term and do what you can outside work to make
    yourself feel happier and more fulfilled so you can withstand the
    pressures on the job.  Then, when you can, bail out!  There is no
    honor in ulcers and stress-related illness, and staying where you
    are unhappy (and will continue to be unhappy) is setting yourself
    up for problems like that.
    
    Once an interpersonal problem arises between managers and employees,
    especially if the employee fights it and thus brings higher level
    management attention on the situation, there is, in my opinion,
    no hope of ever regaining friendly, normal terms again.  It's a
    little like a kind of amputation.  You can work again, but never
    quite the same way as before.  Most likely not better.  Perhaps
    the manager should, ultimately, be fired.  (Unlikely to happen.)
    If they stay, you should be reporting, as soon as circumstances
    permit, to someone else.  Hopefully within the company.  But not
    necessarily.
    
    A helpful exercise (at least I found it so) when you get into these
    painful prediciments is to review (maybe in writing) what the "worst
    thing that could happen" would be and how you would respond to that.
    Be realistic -- don't add nuclear war into the scenario! ;^)  But
    if being fired, for example, is the "worst-case" for you, list the
    reasons why (no income, lose vestment, lose benefits) and how you
    would react (revise resume, contract/temp until hired somewhere,
    apply for unemployment insurance, borrow from family, sell the kids...)
    If you see concrete alternatives, even the worst doesn't seem as
    bad, and KNOWING there are alternatives, sometimes you can deal
    better with existing circumstances.

    I vote for EAP as well.  You could use a fresh perspective on several
    things, and they are trained to help, and know of resources.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Sherry

    
    .39: very well put.
    
    Here's one of my favorite definitions:
    
    INSANITY: REPEATING THE SAME ACTIONS AND EXPECTING DIFFERENT RESULTS.
    
    
    
    Ken
    

	Posted on behalf of the author of the base note at their request.
================================================================================

    A short while ago the person in my immediate family died. I don't think 
    I would be revealing too much if I identified this person as my spouse. 
    I'm really trying to keep this as anonymous as possible yet realize 
    that anyone who is familiar with this situation will know who I am. So 
    now I am a single parent on top of it all. My first concern will be 
    whatever is best for the "new family". 

    Right now the best choice on the immediate horizon is taking a position 
    with a competitor. The pay and benefits are better, which I at first, 
    found hard to believe and accept. But I am so very hesitant about 
    leaving DEC. The only 2 other viable alternatives are to "take a 
    visible and aggressive stand" or to "ride thru this manager's time 
    here". I can't use ODP again. Once bitten, twice shy, and all of that. 
    I have to think of the additional stress this may cause on me and 
    therefore my family. Although I haven't ruled it out completely. There 
    are actually two other options. The ODP one, and the use of an 
    employee/labor relations attorney. I actually dream about the 
    possibility of DEC offering me some sort of incentive to leave. I'd 
    take it without a moment's hesitation.

    As for staying in DEC but in another group/area that's not possible. 
    It's either "where I am" or "out of DEC". EAP is an alternative we, (my 
    spouse and I) had already explored. It seemed to be primarily a 
    counselling function which was not appropriate at that time, ergo 
    stopped, and I cannot see it helping much now either. I know the 
    options. I just have to determine what is best for my family, and 
    myself.

    I would also like to thank the numerous people who replied to me 
    off-line, and Alfred as well, for the time and effort spent in this on 
    my behalf. I have been away a lot recently for obvious reasons, and I 
    didn't want to burden Alfred with extracting and forwarding my replies. 
    Plus, I have to maintain my anonymity as best I can. 

    I keep checking this topic and I thank you all for all of your advice. 
    In certain ways each one has been helpful in every way from confirming 
    my sanity (yes DEC does try to get rid of people sometimes) to support 
    (hang in there and think it out) all the way to caution (watch your 
    back). All of it applies.

    I haven't yet made any decision but I think it is obvious I am leaning 
    towards taking a job with the competitor. But I feel it is much too 
    early after the death for that. I guess I just have too much baggage to 
    make a decision now.

    Thanks.

    is it too much to suggest that someone in the 'great white north'
    bring this situation to UPPER managements attention??

    RE: .41
    
    Your news makes me sad. Please accept my condolencies. 
    
    The only thing I can say is encourage you to take your time (as you
    hint).
    
    I don't know you or where you work, but somehow I'll miss you.
    
    RE:.42
    
    In my opinion you're right. But we need to pick the right time and
    place to do this. Right now is neither the time nor the place.
    
    Keef.

    Re .41:
    
    Your case may be an exception due to what you've been through prior to
    your spouse's death; however, classic grief counselling usually
    includes the strong advice to put life decisions on hold during the
    grief process (at least for 6 mo. - 1 year).
    
    Just one more nudge to take your time...
    
    Thanks for your openness and vulnerability in sharing your struggle
    and pain with us.

	Latest update from the person who wrote .0.
    
    			Alfred
===============================================================================

Well folks, the heat is being turned up I think.

I sense a forcefulness from my manager. The only way I can think of putting 
it is that I am left with far less leeway in my tasks than I had before. 
Instead of the manager asking for my time estimates, the manager is now 
telling me when the task should be completed. This may be due to the fact 
that when my spouse passed away all of my responsibilities were pushed back 
by a few weeks. I can understand where the manager is getting antsy about 
having them done but there is definitely a noticeable change which I do not 
attribute to the extended deadlines.

And here's what is really getting to me. I had a performance review about 6 
months ago. And I have yet to see it. I have asked for it at least 
(literally) 20 times. I am always told "soon". After my spouse died I had 
to find various papers, etc., and while I was doing that I also looked for 
my past JP&Rs. Of all the JP&Rs, only one copy (photocopy) was signed by my 
manager's manager, the DM. I then decided that I wanted copies of all of my 
reviews. The formal ones which are signed by all those who have to sign 
them. So I asked my manager for them.

That was 2 weeks ago. In the meantime I have reminded my manager almost 
every second day and the manager keeps putting me off. The latest excuse is 
that it is the end of the quarter and so the manager and the secretary will 
be very tied up for at least 2 weeks.

The manager's copy of my file was in the manager's desk not more than 18 
inches from the manager's arm. Yet it was the end of the quarter and there 
was too  little time to photocopy the reviews. That doesn't sound right to 
me. And I cannot come to any other conclusion except that something is not 
right in that file. Either they weren't signed (hard to believe), they've 
been altered after my signature (possible), or the manager is being 
difficult (fits the pattern).

Also, I contacted the appropriate govenrment office regarding proper 
notices when resigning, etc., and this person called back when I was 
unavailable. A message was taken. These messages are always left either with 
the secretary or on the person's desk. My manager handed me that particular 
message and the look on the manager's face said that an explanation was 
expected. None was given.

I feel that the excuses pertaining to the reviews not being photocopied to 
date are unacceptable. Now I have to call personnel. The phone message 
incident, I admit, is not helpful to my situation, but then not much is 
these days. I face the prospect of going to either personnel, or the DM, 
neither of which can be called a friend at this point. I am tempted to ask 
for my file to see what's in there.

And as a side note to this, my other colleagues also have not received 
their typed JP&Rs which they had in the past 3 to 6 months.

    It is ILLEGAL (not against Digital policy, I mean against the law) for
    your manager to keep a separate Personnel file on you.  Oh, yes, every
    manager has a small file with the employee's salary review time and
    perhaps the last review in it.  Even that's illegal, but I guess all
    managers do it.  I was very surprised when I learned that in management
    training, but I guess the intent is to keep everything in one file,
    maintained by the Personnel organization, for your protection.  If
    official information is being maintained on you all over the place, how
    could you possibly expect to have access to all of it -- after all,
    accessing it is your right.
    
    Which leads me to my suggestion.  Forget asking your manager for copies
    of your reviews.  Go directly to Personnel.  You do not need your
    manager's approval or knowledge to do this.  You do not need to give
    Personnel any explanation, and they should not ask for one.  Just tell
    them you want to review your Personnel file.  It will probably be made
    available to you then and there, no hassle.  All your reviews should be
    in it.  If all is copacetic, your manager will never know you even
    looked at your file.  And if it isn't, you can decide what to do next
    based on your own knowledge of your situation.
    
    Good luck!
    
    							Pat

    Pat,
    	 it may not be illegal in countries outside the US. I don't know
    for a fact that it isn't, but I have a feeling that  it may not be.
    
    - ���

    Thanks, Andy.  I fall into the trap of assuming everyone lives in the
    US like I do.  I apologize.
    
    							Pat

>    Thanks, Andy.  I fall into the trap of assuming everyone lives in the
>    US like I do.  I apologize.
Does this person work and live in the U.S.?

After reading this through I'd suggest the following:

	- Get a Support Buddy.  A friend who doesn't work at DEC.  Ask
		this person to support you with this situation.  I'm sure
		that you are discombobulated and unorganized with the loss
		of your spouse, so this will help immensely!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	- Get focused.  Take responsibility for your life!

	- Take the suggestions in this note and discuss them with your
		Support Buddy.  Put together a game plan.  What you will
		get and when.  What you will do if you don't get it.
		PLEASE!!!  Be sure to document what you do!!  Remember,
		verbal contracts are worth the paper they are written on!!
		Send mail to your manager for all future correspondance.
		If the secretary prints out the mail for your manager,
		ask her to ensure that he recieved it.  Document this.
		
	- Your manager was a friend.  The key here is 'was'.  He is no longer
		your friend.

	- Consult with a lawyer who is practiced in these scenerios

Dan

	Here is the latest update from the author of the base note.

			Alfred
==============================================================================

Well, here's the latest news. Ever since my spouse died things have been 
fairly stable here. I was left alone to do my work. But I knew that nothing 
had really changed and so I actively pursued other career opportunities. At 
one time I had was could then have been referred to as "a sure thing" with 
a competitor. I thought my problems were over. That is until the industry 
hit a downturn and hiring freezes became standard practice with those that 
weren't firing staff. Needless to say I am still here, which in itself is 
not a bad thing at all. Not bad except for the fact that I have found out 
some very scary things, plus I feel "they" are back at me again.

First, as a step to both protect myself, and to determine  if there was 
some hidden reason for all of this activity being directed against me, I 
asked UM2 (my present UM) for all of my JP&Rs dating back to my date of 
hire. I asked for copies that were duly signed by the proper people, ie., 
DM, UM, and Personnel. After 4 weeks of badgering UM I finally received 
these copies. 

At least 1, and maybe 2 JP&Rs were not given to me. Half of the rest were 
not duly signed. I then asked personnel for these copies. And guess what? I 
got them back pretty much the same way, although more of them had the 
signatures than those I received from UM. And here too some were missing. 
So now I don't even have an official and complete paper trail to support 
me.

Plus, my last JP&R was 6 or 7 months ago, and I still haven't received a 
copy of it. And to the best of my knowledge, neither has anyone else in the 
unit. Our next JP&Rs are being scheduled now and I have insisted on a 
proper copy of me my previous one before I have this next one. Time will 
tell what will become of that.

And now just a couple of days ago I was told that the DM and Sales DM (SDM) 
insisted that I do a short stint residency out of town, for about 2 to 3 
weeks. I was asked what I thought about it and I asked not to be considered 
for that for numerous reasons. One, 2 other people within the unit have 
more, and more recent, experience with the relevant work, and two, due to 
the structure of our (my child and I) new life, it would impact on the 
amount of quality time I would be able to spend with my child. 

I was under the impression that I had a choice until other DECcies at the 
customer site called me to inform me of the work required. When I told them 
it wasn't definite that it was I who was going, they then told me that they 
were told that it most definitely was me. So, playing out the string, we 
decided to set up a time to get together during the week. i wanted to wrap 
up my current project, so I leaned towards the middle of the week, until I 
was told (by these DECcies), in an absolutely nice manner, that thjey were 
led to believe I was starting g almost immediately, thereby not allowing me 
to finish up my work.

I mentioned this to UM and she/he said that she/he was under the impression 
that I had decided to go. Translation: DM and SDM said that I was going, no 
ifs, ands, or buts, and therefore I readily agreed. Unless my job is at 
stake, I will not go. So far it looks like I will have to.

Because the work is donkey work, or grunt work, almost any other person 
could go. Perhaps another person without children, or with a spouse at home 
for emergencies, or with other family in town, or with more experience 
even. But no, I was chosen at this extremely bad time. These people should 
have been with me to see how my child was affected by the loss of a parent 
at Thanksgiving, and even Halloween. We as adults do not place much 
emphasis on a small thing like Halloween, but it is such an important time 
for children. Especially after they are used to one parent staying home to 
hand out candies and the other taking them out. Afterwards, everybody sits 
around the table, and you know all of that kind of stuff. My child this 
past weekend took to crying and hugging and kissing a picture of my 
deceased spouse, so the enmotional fragility is still there. My child is 
seeing a child psychologist to help my child, and myself, in dealing with 
my child's/our grief. I have lunches with my child on occasion too. I also 
do as much as I can during lunchtime so that when I pick my child up from 
school we can spend quality time together insted of doing various errands 
that are totally unenjoyable "grown-up" type things. If I must work out of 
town then that will most definitely impact on our quality time. How can I 
measure that loss?

With the death of my spouse, we lost an income, and with the added daycare 
we gained an expense. It is bad enough that I am now looking for part-time 
work, and therefore spend more time away from my child, but now I will be 
losing out on our good time together as well. If I had gotten the decent 
raises I felt I deserved, then the financial situation caused by my 
spouse's death would certainly not have had such a large impact as it has 
now. So not only do I lose out on money I felt I have earned, but I will 
lose out on time that is needed with my child now. Doubly shafted is the 
only way I can see it.

I have asked for a cellular phone for the trip (for emergencies) to and from 
this customer's site, plus travel money in advance, because on my salary I 
cannot afford extended travel while waiting for an expense check to arrive.
As of yet I haven't heard anything back, and I'm due to leave in a couple 
of days. The UM is certainly aware of all that I've written here, and more, 
yet there seems to be little apparent compassion or understanding. It will 
be terribly embarassing if I cannot travel to the site on the second day 
due to a lack of funds. Although that would drive home the point about my 
low salary.

So perhaps as a sort of summary, I should wind it up by saying that there 
are people far better suited for this short term residency, for various 
reasons, yet all of a sudden the DM and SDM have found my name and have 
chosen me to do it. I will concede that there may be valid business reasons 
for this decision, but my family (to me) comes before business. I should 
also mention that this residency is not overnight at all, unless (because 
it is winter) I am stranded due to snow storms, etc. I believe there are 
many valid "single-parent" concerns here that are being ignored.

I have taken to calling a personnel office outside of my district, and 
anonymously, to see what, if any, internal rights I have in this matter, so 
in essence I have reopened the possibility of ODP again. This sounds like 
either my last stand, or my way out. I'll try to keep you posted.

With all the recognition that DEC is getting for it being a veritable haven 
for single mothers (parents?), I am quite surprised at this apparent lack 
of concern for DEC's employee's health and welfare.

Signed,

Fighting_for_maintain_my_family_life

    Does the author know about the official that you can go 
    to straight for work related problems to get independent
    arbitration?  Unfortunately I don't remember which note
    the name of the person is in.  

    re: .50
    
      Alfred,
             my only advice is to try and get a 9-5 job in Manf. You
    would not receive that kind of treatment there. Your situation
    has occured here before and the individuals concerned have been
    treated with the utmost sensitivity and have been allowed time
    to adjust to their loss and plan for the future.
    
    	     I wish you well,
    			     Don H.
    

    re: .52
    
    I made a boo-boo. Thanks to those who rightly pointed out that
    Alfred is posting replies to this note on behalf of another for
    reasons of anonimity.
    
    My comments still stand however.
    
    Don H.