Conference 7.286::digital

    Well, for PSS folks, it is often our only contact with others in
    the organization.  It has become our lifeline (along with TBU) for
    not only technical but most all Digital related issues.  Without
    NOTES, I would hardly feel like I was a part of Digital.  It's often
    the only way we can keep up with the state of the art and the latest
    and greatest products we produce.  That's why you will see PSS folks
    entering notes at all hours of the night.  We couldn't survive without
    it.
    
    Bob

        I believe Anne Marie Brako did part of her masters thesis on
        a related topic.  Perhaps she will share some of her findings
        with us.
        
        Tom

    Being PSS myself, I not only agree with .1, but also believe that
    a majority of Noters could be PSS.  Maybe Ms. Brako will take up
    Dr. T's suggestion and impart some useful knowledge and statistics.
    
    ...... Dr. C

Hello,

I apologize for being remiss about posting results of a survey I conducted in
spring of 1987 here.  I did not complete writing my master's thesis based 
on the survey until summer of 1988, and was reluctant to share the data 
until the work was accepted by the university and protected by copyright.

I have attached the abstract of my work, and a summary of my findings.
I think that there are some very interesting things!

Please *do not* write me for copies; the entire work is in the Digital
library at MLO under my name (HF5718.B72, CID#61244).  Let me know if
you have trouble getting at it.  I also have a copy in my MRO4 office.
If you use the information in your own work, please remember to footnote
my document.

Thank you,
Anne Marie Brako


Conference Communication: In the Boardroom or on the Computer?
--------------------------------------------------------------
				
				- Anne Marie Brako
			          Boston University
				  School of Communications
			          July, 1988

ABSTRACT

This project examines whether an electronic medium, known
as computer conferencing, may be considered as an alternative to the
common business meeting.  The literature search affirms the potential 
economic value of such a tool to corporations, and confirms that no 
previous study has examined computer conferencing as directly compared
to meetings.  The theoretical summary compares the two forms of group 
communication, and outlines my hypotheses.  A survey of 
393 computer-conference users conducted at Digital Equipment Corporation 
provides research data to support or refute these hypotheses. 
For a summary of the findings, consult the ``Discussion'' part 
of the Results section.

{Discussion}

As substantiated by the findings of a survey at Digital Equipment Corporation,
the computer-conferencing application can reduce and complement business 
meetings.  The questionnaire was designed to identify what types of 
conventional meetings computer conferences are replacing, and if 
computer conferences had the potential to replace other types.

The 393 respondents to the questionnaire were volunteers at
Digital Equipment Corporation.  Data collection went on for three
months on the company's computer network:  from February 1 through 
April 30, 1987.  As the computer network has sites in 26 countries
and on six continents, respondents came from all over the globe.

Respondents had the option of taking the survey anonymously,
but 385 subjects provided their name.  This may be related to the 
incentives offered to increase the response level.  A public 
drawing was held in which the winning survey respondent received
a \$50.00 gift certificate.  For those respondents who preferred anonymity,
and therefore could not enter the drawing, \$1.00 was donated to the 
United Way.  Respondents could also elect to take the survey interactively
on the computer or to fill out a hardcopy version.  The hardcopy 
questionnaires were keyed in to facilitate statistical analysis.

Only people that followed three computer conferences once a week
were invited to respond to the survey.  This was done to ensure the 
sample included people that were experienced users of the medium, and
who were familiar with its benefits and weaknesses.  As 85 percent
of the respondents attended one or more business meetings the week
they took the questionnaire, this adds credibility to the comparisons
made between computer conferences and business meetings
based on the data provided by the sample.  

An interesting subset of respondents emerged:  20.6 percent of the sample
spent at least five hours following computer conferences and five more hours
attending meetings the week of filling out the questionnaire.  Of those 
respondents that spent five hours or more in meetings, 70 percent also 
reported spending most time with work-related computer conferences.  
Computer conferences round out the day for those employees who are always
looking for more work.

Over half of the sample reported using the computer-conferencing
application for two years or less.  This is indicative of the growth
of the Digital computer network (doubling in size since 1980) and the
number of new users employing the medium.  The 16 percent of respondents
who had used computer conferences for less than a year formed a new user
category.  There was no novelty effect in relation to the number of
computer conferences accessed weekly.  In fact, old users---respondents 
who had employed the application for a year or longer---were more likely 
to report that they followed more computer conferences a week.
About 60 percent of all the respondents spent the most time accessing
work-related computer conferences rather than personal-interest ones.

About 44 percent of both user groups accessed between four and ten
conferences a day, and only 7 percent did not access any computer conferences
daily.  This indicates both groups realize the ease with which one can
fall behind following a computer conference.  The tendency indicates that
computer conferences have become a part of the daily work routine.

Technical knowledge did not preclude the use of computer-conferencing. The
13 percent of the respondents that had non-technical job 
classifications did not differ significantly in usage from the rest
of the sample.  However, the data did indicate that technical knowledge 
affected efficiency. Users---in both technical and non-technical 
job classifications---that did not employ time-saving methods that 
were inherent in the software also ended up spending more time accessing
the application.

The demographic variables, although helpful to establish the reliability
of the data provided by the sample (older respondents made more money
than younger respondents; repondents in management jobs came from diverse
job classifications), did not significantly affect computer-conferencing 
and business meeting variables in many ways.  All job categories had
the same number of new users indicating that no single division 
at Digital recently began using computer-conferencing software.  
Respondents in software engineering and software services positions used
the application the most.  Only the lowest salary range of respondents,
less that \$32,000, read personal-interest computer conferences more
than work-related ones.  Curiously, salary did increase significantly
when compared with the number of computer conferencences accessed a week.

The Methodology portion of this paper hypothesized that computer conferences
could replace three meeting types, replace some aspects of two other
types, and could not replace three types.  

The first hypothesis was that the computer conference could somewhat
replace The Ritual.  The findings supported this claim.  This meeting type 
occurs at regular intervals, has the same attendees and an established agenda, 
allows for informational exchange, and allows for group socialization 
which was not investigated. This paper proposes that the computer conference 
could fill all these needs, except for group socialization.  The results 
of the study indicate that computer conferences have indeed alleviated 
problems identified at the conventional meeting:  boredom, ineffectiveness,
absence of a key individual, and the burdensome task of taking minutes.
More than half of the respondents are using computer conferences as
The Ritual in ``unannounced conferences.''  As 90 percent of the unannounced
conferences were reported to be work-related, and 85 percent are followed
daily, people are meeting more frequently than they would in The Ritual which
usually does not occur more often than once a week. 

The second hypothesis proposed that computer conferences could replace
The Problem Solver.  This hypothesis also held up.  The meeting type
involves the need to solve a problem, information exchange, and group
input into the final decision.  The results of the study indicated
that computer conferences removed the problems of too few alternatives and
a close-minded meeting leader at The Problem Solver.  In fact, only 11
percent of the sample had never solved a problem in a computer conference.

The third and fourth hypotheses were that computer conferences could
not replace The Decision Reinforcer or The Negotiator.  The Decision 
Reinforcer masks preconceived decisions as if the issues are still
under discussion and, therefore, obstructs the discussion of new ideas.
Discussions with computer-conference moderators added support to the
presumption that this type of meeting could not take place in a 
computer-conferencing environement which promotes suggestions.  The
Negotiator requires two or more viewpoints, bargaining, and the
arrival at a compromise decision.  Once again, the moderators agreed
that the computer-conference rate of interaction is not fast enough
to simulate bargaining, a critical feature of this meeting type.  Due
to the strong opposition to the computer conference as a replacement
for The Decision Reinforcer and The Negotiator, the questionnaire
did not include variables to examine these types of meetings in
a computer-conferencing environment.

The fifth hypothesis asserted that the computer conference could
replace The Town Crier.  The results provided support.
This meeting type involves the dissemination of information, occurs 
irregularly, and has no prescribed agenda.  The results held out 
that a computer conference could remove the problems of this 
meeting:  slow feedback, incorrect data may spread widely prior 
to correction, and limitations of time, size, and location.  
 
Although the sixth hypothesis proposed that the computer conference
could replace The Air Conditioner, the results were inconclusive.
At this meeting type, attendees ventilate feelings to expose
problems.  There was no strong indication that a computer-conference
environment would alleviate the inhibitions of participants.

The seventh hypothesis stated that a computer conference could not
replace The Trainer.  This meeting provides an instructional
environement where the communication is mostly one-sided.  This
hypothsis contained the assumption that a computer conference would
be unstuitable for this type of communication flow.  The respondents,
however, disagreed.  Over 77 percent reported the willingness
to use a computer conference involving communication by a single source.
Further research should be devoted to this area.

The final hypothesis also requires further study.  The study
proposed that computer conferences could replace some aspects
of The Social Gathering.  This meeting involves the discussion of
norms, values, and interest.  As shown by the high-rate of
informational exchange shown to be present in computer conferences 
by the other hypotheses in this study, it appears that the 
computer conference could meet this need. However, physical characteristics 
also influence interaction at The Social Gathering.  A questionnaire was not
deemed as a proper research instrument to look at this aspect.
Therefore, the potentional seems to be there, but further research
must be done.

Perhaps the strongest indication that the application is a good
business tool is that 91 percent of respondents would recommend purchase
of computer-conferencing software if they went to work for a company
without it.  If in a position to buy the software, 87 percent would make
the purchase.

Computer conferences have the potential to replace or complement
many conventional meeting forms.  Managers in the business community
should take note.

    re: .4 (Brako)
    
    	   Interesting thesis.  I have informally observed the
    	characteristics you describe, and have learned a few 
    	interesting things about noters, and how they can be
    	manipulated.
    
    	   I am what you would refer to as a Heavy Noter.  I spend
    	a good deal of my off-hours at the PC running through notes.
    	I will admit that I do not fit the profile you have set for
    	heavy users of employee-interest conferences, which is where
    	I spend roughly 85% of my noting time.  I mention this only
    	so that you will have a better feel for who I am, as opposed
    	to the accuracy of your findings.
    
    	   I think it can be safely stated that most noters in 
    	personal interest conferences adopt what I refer to as
    	a Notes Persona.  Many (myself included) reflect this 
    	persona in their personal names.  My previous personal
    	name was "Malice Aforethought," which was particularly
    	appropriate in that I tend to use a fairly aggressive 
    	style.
    
    	   Another trend I have noticed is the tendency for 
    	people to develop incorrect mental images of the noters
    	they are reading, particularly, though not exclusively,
    	in personal interest topics.  Once a mental image has
    	been developed, it is often hard to shed until and unless
    	the noters in question meet.
    
    	   Which brings up another interesting point.  When 
    	distant noters' paths do collide, it often impacts the
    	way those people then interact in future notes.  For example,
    	I have, in my time, discussed many volatile issues with 
    	people who vehemently disagree with my opinions.  Veiled
    	(and not-so-veiled) insults are often exchanged, but it
    	is mostly done in good humor.  In one particular case, I
    	made it a point to meet an arch-rival of mine, with whom
    	I had exchanged many insults.  Off-line, we had exchanged many
    	mail notes, in which we stated how we REALLY felt (as opposed
    	to how our Notes Personas were forced to respond).  The 
    	result was that we became good friends, and when we met
    	that bond was strengthened.
    
    	   This serves to illsutrate my point... the Notes Persona
    	projected by an individual is not necessarily indicative
    	of the personality traits of the individual.  Indeed, it
    	seems to me to be more of a reflection of the ego of the
    	individual than of the real personality obscured by the
    	ego.
    
    	   This fact led me to investigate means of manipulating
    	noters by utilizing the information presented about their
    	Notes Persona.  Many of the Digital Sales Training courses
    	I have taken (most recently, the Versatile Sales Person)
    	have given me insights into how these projected personalities
    	can be used to my advantage.  Also, each personality type
    	has certain strengths and weaknesses.  The strengths
    	are reflected in the ability of the noter to communicate 
    	an idea.  The weaknesses often appear as "hot buttons"
    	or "sore spots", about which little thought has been 
    	given by the owner thereof.  There are means of minimizing
    	the strengths and accentuating the weaknesses.
    
    	   For example, if I detect that someone has a "hot button"
    	on the subject of smoking, I may toss in a casual remark
    	about my smoking habit, in order to distract them from their
    	objectives.  This is referred to as "ratholing", and is 
    	quite a common phenomenon within Notes, whether intentionally
    	or otherwise.  Knowing how to use it to one's advantage is
    	a very valuable skill, at times.
    
    	   Finally, I have found that the skills I have obtained
    	in Notes are not limited to use within computer conferences.
    	It is not uncommon for me to use these same techniques when
    	discussing things with friends and relatives, and have found
    	that they work as well in the real world as they do in Notes.
    	Thus, my Notes Persona is beginning to project into my 
    	personality away from Notes.  I suspect this is a fairly
    	common phenomenon, though I have no evidence to back that
    	suspicion.
    
    	- Greg

    re .4
    
    Wow, this is neat!  By the way, I have a side question.  I did my
    M.S. in 1987, and got it published, but I never bothered to copyright
    it.  Is it a big deal?
    
    Eugene

    Re: .6
    
    You have lost your ability to copyright it.  Whether that's a "big
    deal" is up to you.
    
    				Steve

    Re .6:
    
    What do you mean "got it published"?  If you only had it printed and
    distributed to a few people, you may still have copyrights on it.  If
    you really had it generally published, you have lost your copyrights.
    
    There's no such thing as "to copyright" -- there's no process for
    obtaining a copyright other than writing the work.  If you write
    something and do it not under employment or written contract, you own
    the copyrights.  You need to preserve the copyrights by either not
    publishing the work or putting a copyright notice on it when you do
    publish.  You don't need to register the copyright except in certain
    circumstances, such as when you sue.
                                      
    
    				-- edp 

Re .4:

>... a survey I conducted in
>spring of 1987 here.  I did not complete writing my master's thesis based 
>on the survey until summer of 1988, ...
...
>Over half of the sample reported using the computer-conferencing
>application for two years or less.  This is indicative of the growth
>of the Digital computer network (doubling in size since 1980) and the
>number of new users employing the medium.

1.  If I recall correctly, in 1980 far less than 100 nodes were networked
together at Digital, and we now have well over 30000 nodes on the E-net.  Did
you mean to say that the network doubled in size *every year* since 1980?

2.  I've got a copy of one of the oldest notes files, and its first base note
dates from November, 1983.  I don't know when the first notes file opened up
(though I suspect plenty of readers do), but I assume it wasn't before the
summer or fall of 1983.  So the use of the medium within the company is
significantly more recent than indicated.
				/AHM/THX

    Re: .9
    
    The first NOTES conference (or notesfile as they were then known)
    was STAR::SYSNOTES, and it opened in 1980.  So noting is even older
    than you think!  The CVG::NOTES_HISTORY conference has lots of
    background on the history of noting at Digital.
    
    As for the network size, 100 nodes sounds right for 1980, and
    has indeed roughly doubled in size each year since then.  I don't
    think that trend will continue for too long, though!
    
    			Steve

Re .10:

I stand corrected.  I had thought that TOPSVMS was one of the first few dozen
conferences around.  Did the number of conferences grow very slowly over the
first few years?
				/AHM/THX

    According to my records, not perfect but I believe the best around,
    it took from 1980 to the end of 1983 for there to be 66 notes files.
    About 50 more were created in 1984, over 200 in 1985, there are now
    over 1200 announced (and many more unannounced) conferences. So yes
    I'd say Notes was off to a slow start. There is a lot more information
    on the growth of Notes in CVG::NOTES_HISTORY (KP7). Especially check out
    topic 42 (I think) which has a summary of some growth information
    that I put together.
    
    			Alfred
    
    PS: A move for TOPSVMS was announced in April 1984. It was the 150th
    topic in the Notes announcement file at that time. That file is also
    available at HUMAN::NOTES$ARCHIVE:NOTESLIST.

    re .7, .8:
    
    I did my M.S. in the supercomputing research center at U of I.  At
    that time I had an option "to copywrite" my thesis.  I didn't know
    what it realy meant (and still don't know now).  All I know was that
    if I "copywrote it", I had to pay $40 and go through a lot of
    hassle.  Since I worked on the center's computer and got paid as
    a research assistant, I figured I probably didn't own it anyway.
    The center does its own publications.  That is why I said it was
    published.  In any case, do you think I made a mistake?
    
    Eugene
                                                  

    Re: .13
    
    You only made a mistake IF:
    
    1. Somebody made money off publishing your thesis, AND
    
    2. You didn't sign a statement giving the University rights to publish
       all your work done while you were there.  (I mean the kind of
       intellectual property statement you signed when you joined Digital.)
    
    If nobody made money, or you signed everthing over, then not
    copyrighting merely saved you $40.

        Perhaps we could move the copyright discussion to a different
        topic, or even a different conference?  It really has nothing
        to do with this topic.  While it's certainly interesting, it's
        more a matter of how the law works (so the question might be
        appropriate in MOSAIC::LAWS) than about how we work at Digital,
        and it's certainly not relevant to "what kinds of people take
        part in Notes conferences".
        
        Tom

    Should I say it's somewhat obvious why conferences are used more
    by technical people?  I can think of a few reasons:
    
    1.  Non-technical people tend to know less about how to use computers,
    and don't necessarily want to learn (for whatever reasons).
    
    2.  They often don't have any motivation to learn how to use
    conferences.
    
    3.  Some feel that they can get more use out of other sources of
    information (VTX, Electronic Mail, etc.)  Things that are more easy
    to use.
    
    4.  Lack of understanding of the concept of conferencing.
    
    5.  Might not use conferences because they feel that conferencing
    would not provide them with any benefit.
    
    I would imagine that there are cases where people had a few of these
    restraints, but found that for some reason or there there was a
    conference that they needed to obtain some information from (like
    a salesperson).  Then, when they found out how to use the conference
    (probably from a helpful software specialist), they became notes
    file junkies...
    
    Doug
    

    hmmm.  
    
    I am not part of SWS.  Not a PSS Specialist.  Not even a Techie.
                                                       ^
    The last one could be argued.----------------------|  :-)
    
    In my present job (Ed. Services Instructor - OA courses and low-end
    VMS) I generally deal with end-users of computers and application
    software (primarily ALL-IN-1).  
    
    Previously, in a HR job (I have been a PA (like a PSA) and Administrative 
    Secretary in Field Personnel), NOTES was more of an extra-curricular 
    activity in off hours (more personal interest conferences than 
    work related).  I actively pursued information on DEC as a "corporate
    culture" and enhanced my understanding of DEC thru NOTES.  I also
    made contact with people I would have note made otherwise, accessing
    information like Reesa Abrahms study on DEC culture vs. IBM's, saw
    pointers to books I was unfamiliar with but helped enlarge my
    understanding of DEC and it's history (including "The Soul of the
    New Machine"). 
    
    I also was able to contribute information where people asked questions
    in notes rather than directly of their managers and PSA/PA's or
    Personnel Reps.  Most of the time it was "see your PSA" but sometimes
    it helped clear up a misconception.  I participated cautiously since
    I was sensitive to the perceptions of HR folks and didn't want to
    make any NOTER uncomfortable.  I got over that shyness and maybe
    helped dispell the notions that HR folks can't use technical tools.
    
    In my current job, which I have held for the past 2� years, I finally
    got the chance to "play with all the technical tools/toys" I became
    so enthralled with (partly thru the NOTES conferences).  And while
    my travel schedule and time teaching prevent me from accessing the
    notebook as often as I like, I am still a very active noter. 
    
    I currently count 10 conferences I regularly participate in regarding
    JUST ALL-IN-1.  Additionally, 3 others regarding WPS-PLUS.  Then
    all the DECxxxxx (DECslide, DECpage, etc) conferences.  Course
    Development and Training conferences.  This one, well you get the
    idea.  ON-THE_ROAD for when I am travelling somewhere new and don't
    want to end up at a bad hotel or wonder if I am taking the best
    route...
    
    Without NOTES, I couldn't do my job as effectively.  Sometimes it
    becomes a bit of a personal mission to introduce others to NOTES.
    In fact I have a class on VAXnotes to teach next month (customer)
    and will sanitize some examples of how it can be used to illustrate
    the conferencing possibilities.  
    
    Restricted conferences are also an important tool, and we use them
    in our group to keep both a dynamic discussion as well as a live
    history of projects we are working on.
    
    I am past "verbose", but as you can see, NOTES is not a small part
    of how I work at DIGITAL.  At times it has certainly contributed
    to my decision to stay here. 
    
    Irene 
    
    
                                                        
    
    
    

    well maybe NOTES helped me become a techie after all??
    

WELL, THERE ARE THE SHOUTERS: THOSE FOLKS WHO HAVE NOT YET DISCOVERED
HOW TO ENTER TEXT IN LOWERCASE. I HAVE HEARD THESE FOLKS ARE EITHER
NEW TO COMPUTING OR STARTED IN THIS FIELD BEFORE THE LUXURY OF LOWERCASE.

then there are the "low-key" folks who never type in uppercase or
capitalize anything except RESERVED KEYWORDS or VALUES. I bet these
folks are mostly software engineers. :-)

Then there are the "hit-and-run" noters...

	Regarding the last few replies: Can we leave the attempts to create
	the shortest replies for some other conference and return this topic
	to its regularly scheduled question? Thank you.

			Alfred Thompson
			co-moderator HUMAN::DIGITAL

re .9,.10
================================================================================
                    DISK$VMSDOCLIB:[NOTES]SYSNOTES_OLD.NOT;2
  KAWELL                        VMS system notes              16-JUN-1980 14:11
 Note 1.0                            Welcome                        0 responses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  This notes file should be used to log changes to VMS and its bundled
components.  That is, when you make a change to something that might
possibly be interesting to someone else, write a short note here.
    

    

    ..and there were no changes in VMS since 16-Jun-1980 worth mentioning ?


    Was the "first note" a success ??


    				wlodek

>    ..and there were no changes in VMS since 16-Jun-1980 worth mentioning
    ?
>        Was the "first note" a success ??

    No.
    I heard that 10 minutes after it was written, the moderator set
    it "Hidden".
    

    RE: .27 "Hidden"
    
    That was quite fitting!  Just to make sure no one gets a wrong
    impression, in those days, there were no "moderators" and no "hidden"
    notes.
    
    In those days, you could not delete you entry once replies were added
    to it.  Although a resourceful hacker could always obliterate it. 
    
    And if you note from distant land and/or forgot to set you time
    and/or NOTES$TIMEZONE, you incurred wrath of entire E-Net (it _was_
    E-Net at that time).
    
    - Vikas

    re: .28
    
    K-Notes didn't support timezones, did it?

    RE: .29 RE: .28 No K-Notes did not support timezones. This was
    one of the major factors that let to Notes-11 becoming the prime
    Notes user agent once Notes-11 started factoring timezones. I also
    think that the Notes timezone problem had a big influence in making
    people realize just how global a company DEC had become. 
    
    There is a note on the timezone problem in CVG::NOTES_HISTORY BTW.
    There is also a note there on "Moderators".
    
    				Alfred

        From the Lowell Sun, Feb 12, 1989:

        "Concord -- Valentine's Day, 1989.

        "Hearts and flowers, love and romance are still in vogue. 
        But then, so are Cupid and computers.

        "Computers?  Yes, computers.

        "Here's a love story straight out of the '80s, where
        high-tech communication blends with romance and turns out as
        enticing as any lace-edged Victorian Valentine one sweetheart
        might send to another.

        "The lovers in this true tale are Brenda Bennett, a principal
        programs analyst with Digital Equipment Corporation in Acton,
        and John 'Tony' Bean, a software products engineer at a DEC
        facility in San Antonio, Texas.

        "Brenda begins their love story during a recent interview at
        her Concord home.

        "'I've been single for 15 years and have two kids, 21 and 18. 
        I'd dated off and on, but there was nothing serious.  Tony
        was recently divorced after 25 years of marriage and has six
        kids -- 24, 21, 19, 17, 13 and 10,' she starts, a school
        girl-like giggle in her voice and eyes twinkling as she
        recalls the facts.

        "'I had finished my degree at Boston University and decided it
        was time to do something for myself,' she continues.

        "That something was a personal note, submitted last May to
        DEC's singles notes file, part of the company's massive
        private computer network which connects each of the firm's
        more than 123,000 employees electronically via computer to
        fellow workers around the world in 64 countries.

        "'Every DEC employee has access to the network of notes
        files.  The network is a forte of DEC,'  Bennett explains. 
        'There are a number of notes files on all different subjects
        -- travel, recreational, hobbies, swap, classified.  Some are
        work related and others, like the singles file, are
        personal.'

        "'Limited time only, get to meet Brenda,' her note began. 
        Then she listed vital stats, including her age, eye and hair
        colors, personal accomplishments, the fact that she is often
        mistaken for her daughters' sister and the point that she
        possesses dimples.

        "'I tried to inject humor, since I wanted the note to reflect
        me,' she explains.

        "Complying to the prescribed etiquette of the singles file,
        Bennett submitted her note through a moderator who put it
        into the file anonymously.  Another option is inserting the
        note 'live with your name on it.'

        ...
        ---------------

        Well, you get the gist of it.  There is about as much
        additional text in the article which I didn't fell like
        typing in.  I was only interested in the technical details.
        :-)

        Bob

	As one of the moderators of Singles and the creator, I'm not
	a happy camper reading .31. I'm just waiting for Corp. Public
	Relations to phone me up and talk to me..  I don't want to
	rat-hole about it but I WILL voice my displeasure at finding
	out about this 3rd hand.

	This is NOT right!

							mike
							Moderator of SINGLES

    re: .32
    
    Excuse me?  I just re-read .31.  All I see is an entry of part of
    the text of a newspaper article.  What is wrong?
    
    Bob

>    Excuse me?  I just re-read .31.  All I see is an entry of part of
>    the text of a newspaper article.  What is wrong?

What is wrong is that someone at DEC talked about DEC to the press, most likely
without permission.  DR::BLINN can quote the Orange Book, but I don't think
that's necessary.

    .35 got etherzapped, so I'll try again.
    
    I thought .32 was mad at .31 for entering the text.  I guess I missed
    the level of indirection.
    
    Bob

       RE: .36
       
       	You got it.. I'm not mad at .31.. I'm mighty upset with people
       	talking to the press about something that could affect me 
       	(And my career?) WITHOUT asking me FIRST! Not to mention 
       	breaking company policy!
       
       						mike

    I do not see anyone is likely to object to what amounts to a free
    advert for Digital. Furthermore, I do not think it likely that the
    moderator of any conference could be held responsible for the actions
    of anyone reading said conference.
    
    Who knows, we might even sell a VAX with Notes on board to a few
    dating agencies. 
    
    Mike Day
    

        I must admit that I thought it was pretty neat that a
        front-page (second section) story on one of Digital's
        networking strengths appeared in a paper published in Wang's
        home town. 

        (Wang has been running networking ads which imply that a Wang
        system is one of the ways to get VAX systems to talk to IBM
        mainframes and PCs.  Of course, VAX systems can do that
        directly.)

        Bob 

re: .37 Notice that the story was told by the principals to the press.
    	There would not seem to be ANY use of note info per se:
    
      "Brenda begins their love story during a recent interview at
        her Concord home."
    
      I liked it!
    
    		RMM

re Note 735.37 by STAR::MFOLEY:

>        	You got it.. I'm not mad at .31.. I'm mighty upset with people
>        	talking to the press about something that could affect me 
>        	(And my career?) WITHOUT asking me FIRST! Not to mention 
>        	breaking company policy!
  
        Mike,

        I don't see any clear violation of company policy here.

        That, of course, does not mean that your fears are unfounded.
        This article gives high visibility to non-business use of
        company resources.  The following from the article:

              "There are a number of notes files on all
              different subjects -- travel, recreational,
              hobbies, swap, classified.  Some are work
              related and others, like the singles file, are
              personal."

        seems to imply, by saying "some are work related", that
        non-work subjects predominate.  This is, of course, not true.

        This article probably increases the chances, by a small
        amount, that non-work-related notes conferences, either
        individually or network-wide, will some day be shut down due
        to some crisis, real or perceived.

        But I'm proud to see it in print.

        Bob

	The volation was that a DEC employee was discussing with the press
	about activities at DEC without going thru Corp P.R. This is a no-no
	and I know that cuz I've already had discussions in the past with
	Corp. P.R.

	We want to advertise DEC as a Network Corp. by the virtue of our
	products and the marketing of our products, not by the fact that
	it's easy to meet people on the net.

			Still upset,

							mike

re Note 735.43 by STAR::MFOLEY:

> 	The volation was that a DEC employee was discussing with the press
> 	about activities at DEC without going thru Corp P.R. This is a no-no
> 	and I know that cuz I've already had discussions in the past with
> 	Corp. P.R.

        The article is almost entirely about these two people and how
        their relationship started and developed, not about
        "activities at DEC".  On the other hand, some activities at
        Digital were incidental to their meeting (the part of the
        article that I didn't type in mentioned attendance at a
        training course in Bedford, for example, which enabled them
        to get together).

        I suppose that if they worked at the CIA or NSA, they would
        be properly trained to say absolutely nothing about what they
        do or did at work.  There would have been no story in that,
        however, since it would have been about two people, separated
        by thousands of miles, mysteriously getting to know each
        other and falling in love.  I think they did the right thing.


>      	This is a no-no
>       and I know that cuz I've already had discussions in the past with
>       Corp. P.R.

        I wouldn't totally rely on any group's self-description of
        their area of responsibility or scope of authority.

        Bob

    Well, the guilty party is here to face the firing squad!  Just got
    a copy of the note that started all this and decided I should let
    you know how this came about.
    
    After being approached by the author of the article, I had two
    priorities before I said yes to the interview.  To speak to my fiancee
    and find out if he was agreeable and to check with Corporate Public
    Relations to find out if it violated any company policy.
    
    During my conversation with the woman there (sorry but I didn't
    retain her name after I sent her a copy of the article) I was informed
    that the subject was acceptable and given a few marketing statments
    to try to include in the article.  Why miss the opportunity to free
    press.  The only thing that I was asked to say that didn't get included
    (although I did pass it along) was that the personal subjects were
    only supposed to be accessed during non-working hours. 
    
    I didn't realize that the moderators would feel that they needed
    to be informed of the article also or I would have done it.  I did
    everything I felt I should as a good corporate citizen.
    
    Brenda Bennett

(Everything in this topic since reply .31 appears to be a new topic,
although one quite relevant to this conference.)

	The rest of the discussion has been taken off-line

							mike

from 735.37:
       RE: .36
       
       	You got it.. I'm not mad at .31.. I'm mighty upset with people
       	talking to the press about something that could affect me 
       	(And my career?) WITHOUT asking me FIRST! Not to mention 
       	breaking company policy!
       
       						mike

and from 735.43:

	The volation was that a DEC employee was discussing with the press
	about activities at DEC without going thru Corp P.R. This is a no-no
	and I know that cuz I've already had discussions in the past with
	Corp. P.R.

	We want to advertise DEC as a Network Corp. by the virtue of our
	products and the marketing of our products, not by the fact that
	it's easy to meet people on the net.

			Still upset,

							mike
				*******
	Brenda took this a bit more lightheartedly than I did, much to her
credit.
	FLAME ON.
Seems a bit like we've been through a kangaroo court... never mind a judge,
or jury, folks...just hang 'em at 'yon tree!!

Brenda and I met last July through the SINGLES file.  Last January, she
was approached by the Lowell Sun's reporter as a result of that reporter
overhearing a conversation Brenda was having with a friend.  Brenda acted
in a responsible and professional manner in securing Corporate Public Relation's
blessing before the interview ever took place.  A copy of the newspaper article
was sent to them.   

But, without even trying to check with us, the moderator of the Singles
Conference is here accusing us of "breaking company policy" and of "the
violation" of not going through "Corp. P.R." in *this* public forum. 

It seems that if he requires us to "check it out with him" (paraphrase)
first, so he might not get caught *unawares*...he might at least extend
the same courtesy to us.

FLAME OFF.

I liked the article, by the way... and I am pleased someone (besides Brenda
and myself) read it!  8*)

Tony

    I think the article is just great. I don't see any
    problems with it at all. I really don't think there
    is any issue to make a fuss over. 

    Perhaps I am missing some information, but it does appear
    from previous notes, that unfounded statements of not going
    to Corp P.R. were made. Should there be an apology over this? 

This whole thing reminds me of a local joke going around here in Motown
about Detroit cops:

BANG! BANG! BANG! (wounds suspected criminal)....STOP - or I'll shoot!!!

It sure looks like "shoot first - ask questions later..."


Regards,

	Al

	"Offline by whom"

	By you in your mails to me Tony. I've already said what I have
	to say to Tony. Nothing else need be said. The matter is ended
	as far as I'm concerned.

	If it's a "public" apology you want, fine. I apologize. But I
	stand by my statement that Moderators should be informed in 
	a case like this. 

				End of subject.
						
							mike

	Can we drop the issue of this story and who should or should not
	have been informned? At least from this topic? I think there is a
	topic here somewhere on how talks with the press should be handled
	already.

	As to the issue of informing or not informing a moderator maybe that
	should be a seperate topic. Perhaps in the HUMAN::ETIQUETTE conference?

	Let's get back to the subject ok? Thanks.

		Your heavy handed mean and nasty moderator,
						Alfred

    My perspective is that, in the field, it's mostly SWS people NOTing.  
    Several reasons, mainly DCL access, editor sophistication, ability to set
    up print queues, etc.  Sales is intimidated by any editor other
    than WPS, and even though I've offered to wire in WPS as their default
    NOTES editor, still intimidated.  Also one rep told me there's "too
    many NOTES."

    The Failed Circuits guys in this office have flipped over NOTES, now 
    that they have VAX access, rather than PDP11s running RSTS.
    
    I enjoy using the PERSONAL_NAME field as sort of a 'virtual bumper
    sticker', changing it whenever the mood strikes me.. sometimes several
    times a day.  There is a well known noter that seems to have
    sort of a 'fortune cookie' PERSONAL_NAME generator.. or he spends
    lots'o'time switching names..
    
    karl

    Ah. Reading .46 from Brenda was music to my ears. It appears that
    she did go through PR first and PR had the good sense to give her
    the OK. I think this note is yet another golden example of moderators
    who think that the title 'moderator' gives them the right to make
    judgements on other noters intentions (and even in this case make
    accusations based on presumption). When moderators realize that
    a conference no more belongs to them than anyone else everything
    will go a lot more smoothly.
    
    By the way today in college interview training the head of LKG
    employment ENCOURAGED us to tell potential hires about the plethoria
    of employee interest conferences on the net. I'm as sure not going
    to go through PR to ask if there are any conferences I shouldn't
    mention. I will use my own good judgement, I wish all these
    'moderator' types would also start from the assumption that others
    are using good judgement.
                      
    Dave

       
       	RE: .56
       
       	Hey, I asked to end the damned subject, ok? I'm a little fed up
       with the moderator bashing and I'm starting to get a little tired
       of noters who sit and throw stones at people who have volunteered
       their time and energy to "do the right thing".  If you don't like
       moderators then go start your own notesfile and deal with it
       yourself. And when someone commits a big boo-boo in the conference,
       and/or draws the attention of your management (because their
       managements attention was drawn by someone high up) see how quickly
       you'll scramble. p.s. Don't ask for sympathy from us. You know more
       than we experienced "God-erators"
       
       	I've made my apologies for jumping the gun. If you can't read them
       then go to Soapbox and call me whatever you want there.
       
       						mike
       
       
       	p.p.s.  Thank you so much for offering a solution to the "problem"
       of Moderators BTW.

    Getting back to the topic of the base note, recent entries indicate
    that to some, there are three kinds of noters who make up conferences: 
    
    	1) the sainted, long-suffering, overworked moderators who have
    	   dedicated their lives and sacrificed their careers to the nearly
    	   impossible task of keeping this corporation running just
    	   one step ahead of massive lawsuits through their unselfish and 
    	   unerring judgment and justifiable use of power by closely 
    	   monitoring and correcting what people type to each other.
    
    	2) those who are not moderators but agree with the above.
    
    	3) irresponsible fifth-columninsts who probably shouldn't have
    	   accounts on DEC machines, let alone VAXnotes.
    
    -joe tomkowitz

    
    
    I get pretty fed-up with the umpteen thousands of employees who
    are NOT Noters.
    
    I spend a lot of time reading Notes, & co-moderate one obscure Notes
    Conference. This particular Conference is aimed at discussing new
    business applications and opportunities in the EDI area.
    
    Takes time & effort, but the fact is that not many people read
    the Conference. Those that do are predominately SWAS & Engineers
    - Sales people seem loath to get into Noting, & claim to us that
    VTX suits them better. Marketing in UK & Europe seem more active
    in our area, but Marketing US/GIA is quiet for us.
    
    That's a shame, 'cos much of the info we post is directly related
    to Sales & Marketing feedback - opportunities, successes, case
    studies, strategic issues, legal developments etc. 
    
    Colin Osborne
    
    
    I suppose what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that our information
    distribution system in the company is a bit haphazard when it comes
    to unstructured info.

    i'm another heavy noter, well, right now it's 0:25 sunday, 
    i liked anne marie's abstract, very interesting, i would like to
    have tools to monitor who (not the names, but the number of people)
    accesses vaxnotes conferences.
    
    We opened a couple of "attractive" conferences, one is about
    "RISTORANTI" another is about buy/sell/swap and we succeeded in
    convincing even a number of salesmen to use them. 
    
    well, now they try to sell vaxnotes!
    
    we also use vaxnotes to concentrate all those repetitive mails that
    come in multiple copies from the network, like VNS news, Notes from
    the underlan, Blue Flash etc. we eliminated all but one subscriber
    in our office, and *that* subscriber is a dummy account that gets
    the mail and files it into the proper conference.
    
    Given the status of our network, crowded with replicate traffic
    and slooow peripheral Areas... that was a necessary move.
    
    well, if only vaxnotes was better integrated with mail and vtx....
    
    Bruno.......

    is it possible for anyone to be able to determine *who* READS vaxnotes?
    and if so...is it done often?
    
    tony

    if you are running image accounting, you certainly could be tracking
    what applications are being used. 
    
    are you asking who reads which conferences?  beyond checking links
    to other nodes and such, I haven't seen a clean way to do it.  
    
    i am not sure if that kind of tracking feature is what you find
    in a DEC product.  reminds me of counting keystrokes (something
    else most DEC products i know of don't provide statistics on in
    a personal productivity measurement sense.)
    
    of course i could be wrong.
    
    irene 

    Re: .61, .62
    
    Using supported tools, it is easy to determine at any given moment
    who is accessing a notes conference that resides on your node, or
    who on your node is accessing notes elsewhere (and you can determine
    on what node).  That by itself doesn't tell you what conference
    they are reading, though depending on the node and how many conferences
    it hosts, you can often make an educated guess.  This method can
    also be used to interrogate another node, unless the system manager
    of that node has gone out of their way to prevent you from doing so.
    
    Using unsupported tools, it is possible for a system manager to log
    every access to conferences on their node, with name, file accessed,
    time, number of notes read, written and deleted, and length of
    connection.  I don't use this, myself.  (And don't ask me how, either.)
    
    Because of my concern for the privacy of the noters who access
    conferences on my node, I have arranged matters so that access to
    the network link information (first method) is not available except
    to selected users (mainly Easynet Operations, which doesn't care about
    network links but needs other information.)  If you are a system
    manager and wish to learn how to similarly restrict access on your
    system, send me mail.
    
    The upshot of this is that you should generally assume that it IS
    possible for someone, anyone, at any time to tell if you are reading
    notes, and if so, what conference.  True, it will very rarely be the
    case that someone is doing so, but the possibility is there and you
    will generally have no clue that it is happening.  
    
    			Steve

    in re .58
    
    
    yeah, joe, right! lets just get rid of that third class! :-)
    
    bonnie a_long-suffering_overworked_moderator :-) ;-)  ;-)

In Note 1272.105, Russ NEWVAX::PAVLICEK writes:

>     PS/ An example of GREAT technology that clearly HASN'T sold itself --
>         even when industry analysts seem to be begging for it -- VAX NOTES.

        A lot of people think that, as good as it is, VAX Notes has
        problems that keep a much wider audience from using it. 
        (Ever notice that there are people who praise Notes, and who
        make a big deal about electronically-supported teams, who
        nevertheless don't use it?)

        There is a lot of activity starting up in Stone's
        organization (TNSG) intending to "fix the problem" with
        Notes.  One objective of this work is the integration of
        Mail, Notes, and possibly VTX in a new form.  Another
        objective is to fix what is perceived by many as an obscure
        interface oriented towards the technical user.

        It would be good if the intense user community involvement
        that surrounded the creation of VAX Notes could likewise be a
        part of the definition and refinement of this new facility.
        But how would that happen?  With VAX Notes we had the
        bootstrap of K-notes and Notes-11.  No analogous opportunity
        would seem to exist for this new system (and I, for one, have
        grave doubts that we can build an adequate product in this
        area without the intense prototyping that VAX Notes
        benefited from).

        Bob

re: <<< Note 735.65 by XANADU::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63)" >>>
>                             -< the next "Notes" >-

	You know, the ironic thing is that the next generation of notes
    is probably going to look alot like a competitor product which was
    named after the same thing your very nodename is named after: XANADU.

	Has anyone ever heard of Ted "hypertext" Nelson?  Well, Ted
    is apparently some sort of computer-age prophet who lives out in
    Silicon valley somewhere who has been promoting just such a system
    for the past twenty years or so, and a year ago or so a company
    finally took him up on the idea.  The company is named after his
    pet project: The Xanadu Operating Company, and is a division of
    Autodesk (makers of AutoCad, etc.).  According to an article in
    October's issue of "PC Computing" (page 200), this system is
    scheduled to be released sometime late next spring.

	This article is huge, and I was trying to enter this article
    on-line in my spare time (as I try to do with most of my notes in
    here) so that I could then post it in this conference, but given that
    so many would-be bean-counters have learned to use the "DIR/AUTHOR=<> *.*"
    Notes command and then equate the amount of notes one enters in a
    given notesfile as an indication of lack of productivity, then I
    have since lost interest in bothering with such efforts.

	Anyway, assuming I ever finish typing in the article, maybe
    I'll post it in here.  In the meantime, you might be interested
    in checking out a back issue of the article (assuming you are
    interested in these sorts of things).

	You might also be interested in some of the ideas (as well as
    the resulting feedback on those ideas) for such a system in note #1024
    of this conference.  It was through this discussion that I was later
    contacted by Dave Doucette (author of the "Computer Village" ideas)
    who then turned me on to Ted Nelson and the Xanadu project (which
    looks to be hauntingly similar to my ideas in note #1024).

	It's all coming folks, I just hope DEC makes this window of
    opportunity in time to cash in on some of the market share.

				   -davo

p.s.	I wouldn't mind working on such a project, but so far, all of
	the stuff in note 1024 has been relatively unrelated to my real
	job(s), so don't go assuming I am doing anything with any of
	these proposals at this time.

    RE: .65 Notes grew the way it did and got the user feedback it
    did for a number of reasons. One is that, starting with Notes-11,
    new baselevels *widely* were available regularly. Also user
    feedback was acted on quickly (discussed quickly, implimented
    quickly, used widely quickly). Problems were discussed openly
    among the users.
    
    VAX Notes was designed by the users in many ways. The resource
    and performance problems caused by the FAL method were a problem
    and people brainstormed and came up with fixes. A number of people
    then took the ideas and got support for making a real product but
    the need and design was clearly customer driven.
    
    If you want the next Notes to grow as fast take a look at some of
    the old Notes on Notes conferences for hints. I believe many of them
    are archived. Or talk to the former developers (I believe Mark and
    Benn and others are around and would be willing to make suggestions).
    
    		Alfred

re: .65,

	Well, I finally finished entering the whole article about the
    Xanadu project by hand!  Wow!  That only took two months of off-hours
    editing to accomplish (it's a fairly hefty-sized article, but pretty
    good reading - Ted Nelson is quite a character and fun to read about).

	Have fun, I posted the article over in note 1024.107 (in hopes
    of perhaps rekindling the Info-Market disscussion in the process).
    Well, it's late and my back hurts from hunching over this keyboard
    all night, so I'm off to bed!

				   -davo

	 re .65:

>>>        It would be good if the intense user community involvement
>>>        that surrounded the creation of VAX Notes could likewise be a
>>>        part of the definition and refinement of this new facility.
>>>        But how would that happen?  With VAX Notes we had the
>>>        bootstrap of K-notes and Notes-11.  No analogous opportunity
>>>        would seem to exist for this new system (and I, for one, have
>>>        grave doubts that we can build an adequate product in this
>>>        area without the intense prototyping that VAX Notes
>>>        benefited from).

	Marketing is one of those areas of knowledge that are complex
	enough to be "counterintuitive". In other words, you can quite
	reasonably come to quite opposite conclusions based on the same
	facts.

	How does this relate to VAX Notes? Well, while the thoughts
	quoted above look perfectly sensible, try this alternative 
	point of view:

	VAX Notes has never quite been successful with the majority
	of customers, because it doesn't quite fit their expectations,
	needs, or way of working. That's not surprising, because it
	was lovingly moulded to Digital's way of working over a period
	of years - which way of working is quite different from most
	organizations'.

	This happened precisely BECAUSE VAXNotes was based on K-notes,
	Notes-11, etc. In fact, to my knowledge, the "productization"
	process consisted of taking one of our very best engineers,
	working with one other engineer, and taking 6-9 months to
	polish up the user interface and make it "production quality".

	BUT NOBODY REDESIGNED NOTES FOR THE INTENDED MARKET!!!!

	In fact, I seriously question whether anybody at any stage
	designed Notes. It just evolved. Moreover, I question whether
	anybody had a clear idea what the intended market was. I suspect
	it was just "all those other people out there who are developing
	products just like us".

	So - maybe if the Notes follow-on is based on marketing
	requirements gathered from real customers (and looking at
	the state of the art, e.g. Lotus Notes), and if it is carefully
	designed and tried out on real, average customers - then maybe
	it will sell like hot cakes as it should have done long ago.

	/Tom

 

    The prerequisites for successful use of an application such as VAXNotes
    and VTX is a large organisation with loose rules around communication
    and a large network.
    
    As this is only the case in a very small number of companies worldwide,
    it's hardly surprising that VAXNotes hasn't sold like hot cakes.
    
    VAX Notes is, however, the basis for a worldwide culture within DIGITAL
    that can't be beat.

re Note 735.69 by COUNT0::WELSH:

> 	So - maybe if the Notes follow-on is based on marketing
> 	requirements gathered from real customers (and looking at
> 	the state of the art, e.g. Lotus Notes), and if it is carefully
> 	designed and tried out on real, average customers - then maybe
> 	it will sell like hot cakes as it should have done long ago.
  
        Actually, to a point I agree with you (even though you
        appear to be disagreeing with my earlier statement).

        The problem is that we are unlikely to try out the next
        notes-like product on "real, average customers" until most if
        not all of the major design decisions have already been made
        and cast in concrete.  We just might come up withe a product
        that nobody, in or out of Digital, really likes.

        Bob

    >The problem is that we are unlikely to try out the next
    >notes-like product on "real, average customers" until most if
    >not all of the major design decisions have already been made
    >and cast in concrete.  We just might come up withe a product
    >that nobody, in or out of Digital, really likes.

    
    This points out that our way of operating internally, with lots of real
    time feedback from the 'customer', is very different from the formal
    product development approach.
    
    Judging from the comments I have observed from midnite-developers, our
    formal product development approach is not only risky to customer
    satisfaction, but it is less satisfying to the developer as well.  Is
    this due to a dysfunction of our development process, a failure to
    identify 'test-sites' early enough in the process, or just a cost of
    doing business (as Digital)?
    
    Dick

    I'm a midnite-developer.  The biggest obstacle I've seen is that it
    costs Digital too much time and money to formally develop a product 
    for a small market.  This is because of all the hands and procedures it 
    has to go through before it can get it out.  Not to mention that it can't 
    even get out until Digital's interests have been protected (patents and 
    so forth).  Digital would rather purchase the innovation more cheaply 
    from outside developers who are not encumbered.  Which leaves midnight 
    hackery as the only feasible method for software innovation as these 
    hackers become free "outside developers".
    
    As an example, the stuff I hack on has three patents pending and one
    recently issued.  Since the time of the patent application two outside
    software companies that I know of have developed and sold similar
    products ($500 and $1000 per copy).  I'm still pushing the state of the
    art with this tool, but what we have now is effectively one midnight 
    developer against two small outside companies.  We looked at turning
    this into a product, but I was led to understand that it would be too
    expensive for Digital to do for the small outside market involved. 
    
    Steve 

 RE:      <<< Note 735.70 by LESLIE::LESLIE "Andy, *RE02 F/C3, 830-6723*" >>>
 >
 >   The prerequisites for successful use of an application such as VAXNotes
 >   and VTX is a large organisation with loose rules around communication
 >   and a large network.
    
    
    	Andy, I'd like to respectfully differ with you opinion about the
    successful use of a product like VAXNOTES.  I can see VAXNOTES as a
    product that is adminstered by a small organization with strict rules
    regarding communication and used by a worldwide group of people.  As a
    community bulletin board operator, I see thousands of VAXNOTES-like
    products operating worldwide serving many special groups, all one needs
    really, is a group with something in common who has access to terminals
    and modems and the sky's the limit.  I have always envisioned VAXNOTES
    as a way of involving our customers and suppliers in our business.  
    
    	In my plant... we aren't willing to take the risk yet, or we don't
    see the opportunities or both.. that's not bad, it just means that
    we're at a certain point on our learning curve.  I intend to keep
    proposing the idea until we move forward.
    
    
    Regards,
    Steve