Conference vmszoo::rc

Sounds like a great field/club. Could you outline how the field was layed out
that allowed Choppers, gliders and power since each tends to need a dedicated
area for the main aspects of their flying.

    Long time readers of this notes file will associate my entries with
    gliders.  Indeed I have pushed hard to promote gliders and have done
    my fair share of power plane bashing.
    
    Well an interesting thing happened to me this weekend.  My glider 
    flying buddy took off his Telemaster Tow plane handed me the sticks
    and walked away.  Hmm... I was now in a position where I had to fly!
    Power flying a ship like the Telemaster always looked easy, but proved
    more challenging than I had expected.  Let's face it, it doesn't get any
    easier than a Senior Telemaster, right?   O.K. so I just fly around in
    big left circles(I turn better left than right).  The plane turns well
    with aileron only(unlike the ASK18 I had flown earlier which definitely
    needed rudder).  Hmm... seems faster than I thought when you actually
    have the sticks.  Geez, the damn thing keeps climbing and I haven't
    touched the throttle(wish I had that problem witht the gliders!).
    OK now I'm just plain to high, so I dive and my friend looks at me
    with a "What the hell are you doing expression".  So the flying just
    continues and I am literally getting tired of concentrating, being used
    to fast and furious flights of short duration with my electrics, this
    is downright tiring.  Too chicken to land I wonder when he is going to
    come back and take the sticks of this marathon monster with the $800
    engine(OS 160).  Doesn't he realize I could wreck this thing?  Finally
    He comes back.  Wheww...  flys around till it is out of gas and then
    lands it.  This is how he drains the tank at the end of the day.
    
    Boy that was educational.  Harder than I thought and I didn't even
    take off or land!  I think my flying could improve if I had one of
    these jobbies that can fly 15 minutes at a time.  So it's official
    I am building a big gas powered trainer that will serve as a tow
    plane when I become proficient.  If I don't wreck the thing I should
    get more stick time this summer than me entire 8 years of glider
    flying.
    
    Who would have thought.....  

    re: -2
    
    
    Jim,
    
       The RAMS field is quite large but smaller than many other fields I
    have visited.  The flying was as follows:
    
                      N
                      |
                      |
         W --------------------------------E            
                      |                \    
                      |    X(pits)      helicopters
                      |
                      |  ^
                         | Main traffic pattern
                      S
    
    
    RESPECT and cooperation were more important than the field layout.
    
    When we did an aerotow, nobody was landing and other
    flyers deferred until we took off.  We soared well out of the way of
    the traffic pattern.  The helicopters just flew on the E-W runway,
    out of the traffic pattern.  Nobody hogged the pins.  We did not
    fly gliders when the big 1/4 scale planes were buzzing around.
    People yell when they are taking off, landing, or are going on the
    field.  Maybe on a real crowded day it would have been more hectic.
    
    

    At the CMRCM field we usually do not have gliders and power flying
    together.  It's tough with one small runway and communication is rough
    if the gliders are launching far from the power pilot stations.  It can
    work but it is a bit unconfortable for me.  Same goes with choppers if
    they spend too much time hovering on the runway.  It's not necessairly
    a like/dislike issue but how they have to be flown that makes some
    types of aircraft incompatable at a small field.  Most of the glider
    flying gets done before power flying is allowed on weekends.  Fields
    with helis need an area where they can hover away from the active
    runway to really be safe.  A hover practice pad would be a nice feature
    at the field.  I have flown power planes when Dan Weier is flying is
    chopper and that isn't a problem because he can fly it in a fairly
    normal traffic pattern.  
    
    Charlie
    

    re:-1
    
    I agree that winch or high start launched gliders do not mix well
    with powerplane activity.  I have tried this and I was the one
    that made the decision that it wasn't workable.  Aerotow seems to work
    OK.

I guess the question should be phrased, how SMALL a glider can be aerotowed? i
might be willing to give it a try with my puny 3 meter 8^)

    Any size glider can be aerotowed.  What is important is to match
    the towplane's speed to the glider being towed.  A Gentle Lady will
    require a very slow flying towplane.
    
    I would think the 3-meter Alcyone could easily be towed by a .46 or
    any .61 without any problems.
    
    You would need to build a simple launch dolly to set the plane on
    since it doesn't have a wheel.
    
    At my father's field they are piggybacking 3 meter gliders with
    a 70" Telemaster using a Fox .50.  Piggybacking requires less
    technique and no launch dolly or releaseable towhook is needed.
    
    I will send you the video which explains it all if you like.

Sure... send the video out and I can pass it along to Kay, Lamar, and Dave so we
can all see. The only problem I see with it is the need for the nose towhook.
Most of us have lead up there 8^( I'm not sure any of us are flying a Telemaster
type plane that we could mount a cradle on at the moment.

We have people here that winch launch Lovesongs from the ground with no dolly.
They come off the ground pretty quickly and the ailerons are effective early.

BTW: I may bump the Alcyone span to 4 meters with an rg15 airfoil to play
around. Since I build heavy, I'll just stretch the wing area. The tail moment is
pretty long so I shouldn't be short coupled. I want to build a replacement and
save the other one which has grown heavy with repairs. The lighter loading of
Lamar's and Dave's Falcons and Dick's Magic really impresses me.

The one nice thing about the show not selling out my stock is that I now have
some "spare time" built up to work on my own stuff.

    re: -1
    
    Jim,
    
       I'll send the video to you.  
    
    With a CG towhook, a ship will winch off the ground easily, but with
    a nose mounted towhook(essential for aerotow) the chance of catching 
    a tip is much greater.  The dolly just makes it a lot safer.
    
    Another interesting point about sailplanes, is the configuration to
    launch high is not always the best for soaring.  I believe a lower
    aspect ratio ship is capable of a higher launch than one of higher
    aspect ratio.  The higher aspect ratio wings will flex more(less
    zoom) and are more prone to tip stalling at high angles of attack.
    These issues are not a problem when aerotowing, hence many 1/4
    scale sailplanes have AR approaching 30:1.  This high AR coupled with
    the weight of a scale sailplane provide astonishing L/D.  When these
    babies are released at 1000 ft. you get a lot of time to find thermal.
    
    With your wing cutting/pressing abilities you could use one of Jerry
    Slates fuselages and create a nice 1/4 scale for about the price of
    an open class ship.  The key here is pressing 6 ft wing panels.  I'm
    hoping to do a 1/4 scale HP-18 based around his fuselage($135) sometime
    in the future.

I'm actually looking at 5 foot panels with 18" tiplets. I've talked to Jerry
about kitting around his fuselages and he has no problem with it. The big
problem with Viking is getting a custom fuselage mold made. Lead times are long.

    Back to the Coexistance and problems with tow lines laid out on the
    Power field. This is a common problem with Bungee and the
    Winch where space is limited the falling line is unpredictable. 
    However in these cases clubs can find compatibility by using a hand tow
    which is rewound directly back on its drum at the point of glider
    release. In glider comps this is universally used to stop (up to 12)
    lines becoming tangled/crossed.
    
    Just for interest..
    I've also belonged to a club which went further than mixing just Radio
    areomodelling. In this case it was simply a MODEL Club covering many
    aspects of interest.. 
    
    	Aircraft
    		Radio powered - Fixed wing and helli
    		Radio Silent
    		Free flight and Mirco light (not sure of what its called)
    		Round the Pole
    		Kites
    	Land
    		Radio Cars   - racing mainly
    		Railways
    
    	Water
    		Radio Boating
    
    	Engineering
    		Steam.
    		
    .... these were of course not able to be active at the same sites but
    the monthly meetings proved to be a very useful way to become aware of
    other modelling techniques, sharing tools and materials, and a good way
    for juniors to develop from an affordable start.
    
    Regards Trev 

    I personally do not understand the logic behind some of the hyper-
    specialization I have heard about.  Separate glider and power
    clubs make some sense due to the problems of glider launches
    interfering with power traffic.
    
    But the logic of a 1/4 scale and larger club doesn't make any
    sense to me.  I have heard about two such clubs.  It seems kind
    of narrow and foolish to me.  I mean what's the difference if
    your plane is only 1/5 scale or 1/6 scale?
    
    I would like to hear what the organizers of some of these clubs
    have to say.  All I can imagine them saying is something glib like -
    "We don't like them little airplanes flittin' around."

    Jim,
    	I agree, I think its also their way of restricting
    to the experienced and exclusively 'cheque book' financed membership.
    
    I guess there would be the Safety argument. With the flitters also
    comes a carefree attitude to flying organisation (read respect for
    other peoples creation). 
    
    But again the aguments are not disimilar to Pattern or other 
    specialists who prefer to be with like minds. 
    
    	We have a group called the LMA (large model association) which
    seems to fit this bill in the South UK. I don't know much about them
    but they do appear at the various shows and put on a good display with
    large Scale aerotows etc. They tend to to be 1/4 scale tug and
    saleplane.
    
    Trev
    

    I towed Eric's Chapter 1 with my piped UNIC almost straight up.  I
    limited the speed that way rather than by throttling back. :-)  We had
    a glider release and a tow plane release.  His glider always beat me to
    the ground. :-)    After doing a 100 mph + pass!
    
    The UNIC is a 40 size plane that does not fly real slow so it is not
    ideal for 2M glider towing.  I'd love to make a tow plane that could
    tow at CMRCM.  Anyone interested in this?????
    
    charlie
    

As long as you aren't on ch30, you can strap my ships into the cradle.

I'd be VERY interested in this. But then I'd probably be foolish enough to try
to stay up LONGER than the towplane 8^)

How about a cradle for the Hots? 8^)

    I have an underpowered Kadet Senior with an OS40 sitting around (was my
    trainer).  Probably need to put a 46 or 60 or 90 4 stroke for towing. 
    Plane does have motor mount to fit larger engines already installed.
    
    Robert 

    Jim,
    	Actually, the Ultra-Hots would be an excellent tow plane.  When do
    you want to try it.  I'll have to figure out where to attach my
    release/tow mechanism.  I mounted it to the rear wing bolt on the Unic
    but the  Hots has a difficult mounting arrangement at the rear of the
    wing because it's a mid wing.  It would be fun though and it's slow and
    has plenty of thrust with the G-38 up front.
    
    Charlie
    

My Alcyone 2M is all set up and we could try it some weekend. I'm going to head
down after work tomorrow night with the Gremlin to clean out the engines/tanks.
Let me know when you figure out a method of mounting it and I'm there.

Jim

    I'll look the Ultra-Hots over and see if I can figure a way to do it.
    
    
    Charlie
    

    
    Just a note to go back to the base note, I visited a club fly last
    weekend and was asking "beginner" questions about things in general.
    When I mentioned I was getting into Helicopters, the exact comment i
    got from someone was, "well, we don't really like helicopters, and I
    suppose you guys don't really care for us fixed wing types either"...
    I was suprised at this, and the more I ask around I find this to be
    close to the truth. I like the context of the base note, doing a lot of
    stuff in one club. Other than radio interference. 
    
    Guess there is this type of prejudice in any hobby but I just didn't
    realize what kind!
    
    Oh well...any active helicopter pilots in or around the maynard area I
    can go talk to and watch?
    
    -chuck

Dan Snow just moved from Maynard to Groton. He's been playing with a Shuttle ZX
recently. You might send him a note via his wife at cthq::snow (hope you don't
mind, Lin)

    me mind?  me miiiiiiiiiiiiind?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    nope, i don't mind a'tall...
    
    have a good weekend, Jim :)
    

Well, I usually clear it with someone before I refer to them as a mail recipient
but I figured it would be alright.

You have a good weekend as well.

Jim

    The comment sounds like one from one of our club's Scale guys and a BOD
    member.  (I won't mention any names but his initials are Harvey T.)
    He has told several new heli flyers that they were unwanted at our club
    - on his own.  This is NOT the general feeling of the club members that
    I am aware of and it is out of line as far as I am concerned.
    	I don't fly helis but I do not have any negative feelings about
    them.  I do think that learning to fly them requires an isolated area
    at a club field if there are a bunch of people using the active runway. 
    Once a heli flyer can do forward flight, they can use the runway
    without tieing it up for long periods and they can fly in a pattern
    that is compatable with the fixed wing planes.  
    
    Charlie
    

    An interesting transition in my club status has occurred of late.  I
    have been feverishly working for the last 6 weeks on my first glo
    powered plane.  I feel like the prodigal son!  Many of the club
    members feel I have finally "come around" and have become much more
    friendly when I show up at the field.  Some actually talking to me for
    the first time after 3 years of membership.
    
    This is all very interesting  - I AM STILL ME - whether I have a gas
    powered plane or a glider or an electric powered plane should be
    irrelevant.
    
    There are people in this world who are so insecure that activity in
    any area which they do not participate is threatening to them. A lot
    of maturity is required on the part of these individuals to not
    excercise the power to ban the threatening activity, if indeed they
    have this power.
    
    Don't get me wrong, it is much easier to run a club where the scope of
    activity is the same.  It also can tend to be limiting and in the
    extreme lead to a very stagnant club.
    
    If you are in a position to influence the banning of certain forms of
    R/C flying in your club, I think you need to carefully examine your
    reasons for doing so, being sure they are truly egalitarian, rather
    than personal in nature.
    
    I am no saint, I must admit that if I were in an established Glider-
    only club I would need to heed my own advice when I guy pulled into
    the club field and pulled out his pride an joy with a an IC motor on
    the front.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim 

    Jim,
    	Most people tend to associate mostly with club members that share
    their interests.  Don't take it personally if the power guys aren't
    interested in gliders.  Keep in mind that you are much more likely to
    run into a club that is glider only than one that's power only.
    
    Charlie
    

    re: -1
    
    Being sort of on the fringe of the club has never bothered me.  It
    goes with the territory.  Actually my exclusive use of foam wings
    and fiberglass fuselages is more "radical" in this club than the
    glider flying.