Conference vmszoo::rc

1574.0. "Full scale dog fighting training" by KAY::FISHER (A watched pack never peaks.) Wed Nov 10 1993 11:10

Here is another interesting story about full scale dog fighting from the usenet.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

I took this posting off the net the other day. A gift for the man who
has everything else ... Note that the aircraft is a Marchetti single
engine (prop) Italian figter plane.

- Nguyen

Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim
Subject: Part 2 - Do it for real? YES!!! (long)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 6 Nov 93 02:03:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.cranerCG1sDv.KAC
Distribution: usa
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 138

OK, I received enough response to my original post to make me believe that
a more detailed followup would be appreciated. So..... first things first:

"Air Combat - USA" can be reached at:   1-800-522-7590

Cost: $595.00

What you get:
        - Flightsuit    (No, you don't get to keep it.. *sigh*)
        - Helmet        (See above... )
        - Parachute     (Don't even ask!)
        - Video Tape of your entire flight.  (More on that in a bit)
        - Ground school (See above)
        - THE FLIGHT
        - De-Briefing   (Uses abovementioned tape, as well as that of your
                         opponent)

Total time: Figure about three hours. This includes meeting the IP's, 
            issuing of equipment, ground school, getting into the air,
            getting it on, formation flying, and the debrief.

About the video tape:
           Each aircraft is equipped with three video cameras - one located
           looking over your shoulder, another on a swivel on the IP's side
           of the aircraft, and a third that is slaved through the laser
           based tracking sight directly in front of you. During the flight
           the IP will manipulate the various views to give you an excellent
           record of your flight, i.e. on formation take off the swivel 
           camera will be rotated to view outside the aircraft and at the
           aircraft of your opponent. It can also be rotated (and will be!)
           rotated at YOU to provide a lovely profile of your every grimace,
           questioning look (you want me to do what?!?!), and whatever else
           the IP's artistic temperment dictates. The "Over the Shoulder"
           (OTS) view is _extremely_ dramatic. This is the view by which
           you will amaze your friends with your aerobatic feats. I took
           the tape from my first flight to work. The OTS caught me snapping
           off a couple of aileron rolls; the mere sight of the swirling 
           horizon caused a couple of people to turn slightly green :-).
           The tracking sight camera is used when you have managed to get
           onto the bogies tail, and are proceeding to waste him with a
           100 MIL laser beam that triggers the smoke pod sensors on his
           aircraft. Very nice... shows the smoke spewing from his plane
           and records your "kill" for posterity.

And the rest....

After you have "suited up" you go to a room whereby the instructor will cover
you on what you will do during the flight, the ROE, effects of "G" forces,
and will then describe the ACM's you will practice in this phase. Phase 1
concentrates on the high and low yoyo's. He demonstrates the maneuvers with
the "aircraft on a stick" approach, i.e. here's the bogey, he's going this
way, you do this, etc. etc. In phase 2, the importance of fighting in the 
vertical was *really* stressed. In particular, the IP emphasized how level
turns do little but bleed off air speed, and will do _nothing_ other than
make you cannon fodder for the other guy! BTW, please bear in mind that the
various phases are considered as separate sessions, i.e. the first $595.00
has you go through phase 1, the next $595.00 has you go through phase 2,
etc. I believe that the ACM portion of it has 4 phases, plus they offer
ground pounding training as well. Don't even THINK about trying to do
two of the phases in the same day! You'll be too wasted after the first
one to want to do anything other than go home, grab a cold one, and,
of course, watch your video tape :-). Personally, I did the two phases
a year apart- both were birthday presents from my INCREDIBLY understanding
wife who _hates_ air travel, but nonetheless knew that the only thing that
would make me happy would be a chance to get up there and 'rock n' roll'.
(Thanks, babe!)

After ground school you head out to the aircraft, don your parachute, are
instructed on how to use it (cross your arms across your chest and pull this
little "D" ring thingie, and oh, yeah, here are the quick release latches
to get you out of the sucker!) and then climb into the aircraft. The stick
handle is identical to that used in the F4, so you Thrustmaster FCS owners
will feel right at home, though the coolie hat does nothing, the top button
communicates with the other aircraft (doesn't light off a 9M/P/J/AARAM120,
sorry!), and the middle button allows you to communicate with the IP. The 
'pinky' button is for the manual smoke overide (translation: Don't touch!).

The IP handles takeoffs and landings. Once airborne and having gained some
altitude, he will give control of the plane to you. On your way to the
engagement area he'll have you do some gentle "S" turns. This will allow 
the other aircraft to get used to trying to stay on your tail, as well as
getting used to the "gunsight" for the laser tracking system. You will then 
reverse roles, and practice following the other aircraft through the "S"
turns.

Next come the YoYo's. This will be your first taste of some "G" forces. You
probably don't pull more than 2 or 3 "G"'s, but the impact of those "G" forces
will catch you by surprise. It is also a feeling you will _never_ _ever_
forget! The YoYo's follow the same format as the "S" turns- you follow and 
target the other aircraft, then the other aircraft does the same to you.
During this time the IP is also evaluating you and probably trying to determine
how much he might have to help you out in the dogfights (and you *will* need
help :-)). He will also inquire as to the state of your stomach- they don't
want you blowing chow all over the cockpit any more than you do! They *do*
carry sick sacks, but that ain't no fun. My recommendation is to take some
dramamine. I'm not particularly subject to motion sickness, but took a couple
anyway, and there were STILL times when I felt queasy! Draw your own
conclusions...

Now, it's DOGFIGHT time!! Time to Rock 'N Roll! Bank around till you're left
to left and heading toward each other.... looking standard... and...
FIGHT'S ON!! There he is... go get him.. turn towards him... careful! you're
not keeping him in sight.. get the nose down... can't see him, huh? other
aircraft: tracking.. tracking... tracking.... alright! knock it off, knock it
off, knock it off. Your IP slides the canopy back a little bit to clear out the smoke that is there because YOU JUST GOT SHOT DOWN! Why did you get 
shot down? You broke rule number 1: "Lose sight, lose the fight" You can read
about it in the sim manuals a hundred times, but it is no substitute for 
experiencing the penalty incurred when you are "really up there."

Not to worry, you get to do a total of six dogfights and if things go as they
should, you'll probably end up with a 3/3 split. After all, the idea is also
to have fun, and they know that showing a video tape to your friends where
you get waxed six times in a row would probably be a less than satisfying
experience. :-) During the course of these dogfights, you'll probably pull
more and more G's. You may briefly lose your eyesight as the 5 G maneuver
you just executed drags the blood from your head. You will sweat like a
fiend and your muscles will begin to ache. By the time you do the last 
dogfight, you will be one tired little puppy, and not at ALL disappointed that
it is now time to go home.

After landing, you change out of your drenched flightsuit and then sit with
your opponent as the video tapes of the dogfights are displayed side by side.
The IP's point out what happened in each fight and why somebody won or lost.

That's pretty much it! You grab your video tape and trundle home. Your neck
(at least!) will probably be sore for a couple of days, but most importantly
when folks talk about pulling high G turns, you will know not only WHAT they
are talking about, but HOW it feels!

Apologies for the length of this; I tried to keep it as concise as possible,
yet still convey the "essence" of the experience. If you have quewstions, plz
feel free to email. 
-- 
Cliff Craner                                                     |
[email protected]                              

I wonder:  is this for real?

< Eric >


++++++++++++++++++++++ The full NEWS header follows +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
News Article 19579
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!ogicse!adaptive!nguyen
From: [email protected] (Nguyen Nguyen)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rc
Subject: participating in a full scale dog fight.
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 8 Nov 93 19:00:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: asi.1993Nov8.190050.4108
Distribution: usa
Organization: Adaptive Solutions, Inc.,  Beaverton Oregon
Lines: 155

    I've read about this before and would love to try it. Problem is, I'd
    probably blow lunch.  I've pulled in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 G's
    before and it felt like the skin was being peeled off of my skull.
    Can't imagine 5 or more.

    >I've read about this before and would love to try it. 
    
    Just sit on my Gremrocket sometime and you can...
    
    
    
    
    >Problem is, I'd probably blow lunch.  
    
     ?
    
    
    
    >I've pulled in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 G's before and it felt like the 
    >skin was being peeled off of my skull.
  
    I thought that was a wig all along! :-)
    
    
    
    
    >Can't imagine 5 or more.
    
    	2 + 3 or 4????
    
    
    E.

If you keep an eye on the cable channels you can see several segments
on this school--if the previous note didn't say how much it costs, its
$800 a pop, but I've gotten the impression that you don't necessarily
have to know how to fly.  I saw a segment just last nite on ESPN that
featured this outfit.

Apparently, if you have some misplaced aggression, this school is
guaranteed to give you a direct vent!

Then, for the really big bucks guys, you can get an hour on a Connie
for a grand or so...

> Then, for the really big bucks guys, you can get an hour on a Connie
> for a grand or so...

What's a "Connie"?

				- Dan

hi dan,

What's a "Connie"?

connie, aka lockheed super constellation, (sp? i never know the spelling of
that company) is the famous 4-prop 3-rudder long range aircraft, used in the
50ies and 60ies. the most recent appearance was in the movie "homo faber".

i have seen pictures of several models, all of them are beautiful. this is due
to the fact that the real connie is good looking too (good proportions).

joe t.