Conference vmszoo::rc

    IRELAND
    -------
    
    Unregistered sites:	200'
    
    Registered sites:	400'
    
    Clearance required if within 5km of airport (Permission not normally
    granted to sites within 5km of an airport).
    
    Some sites require clearance for ATC regardless.
    
    The above is being revised and is hoped that an increase is granted. By
    a registered site I mean one that has had its coordinates given to the
    Model Aeronautics Council of Ireland (MACI) and in turn forwarded to
    our Department of Coummunications and Transport. As far as I know this
    information is then available to full scale aircraft.
    
    Eric.

I have a colleague that mentioned a 100m limit at a club nearby Roissy
(east of Paris) because it was sharing airpscae with a local airport, 
Ultra-lights, etc. Otherwise no problem.

Mr

	According to the Law for airspace it is not allowed for ANY aircraft
	without a radio * (to ask for permission) and the permission of the 
	control centers to fly in

    * with this I don't mean our radios to control airplanes with
                                                                    
		- Control Zones CTR (GND level to a defined height, in a 
		                     circle around airports. Diameter varying
		                     2-10 kilometers)
		             Sector A is 1000 feet above GND
		             Sector B 1700 feet above GND
		- CVFR-Areas (Height above CTR to a defined level, variying
		                     in size. Depending on airport or CTR.)

		These three areas are typically around each airport and should
		be avoided like hell. Airplanes are taking off and landing
		through these zones.

		- Controlled Airspace CTA/TMA  2500 feet above GND certain
		  rules apply for flying by view, not instruments. For shure
		  not for us RC'ers.

		- Military low flying (500 feet above GND to 1500 feet.) Almost
		  all of Germany is Military low flying. There are areas that
		  go down to 250 feet above GND !

		- Restricted Areas ED-R (GND to defined height). 

		- VFR-Restricted Areas (10000 feet above Sea level to 20000 - 
		  shouldn't be a problem for RC'ers)


	Sooooo, what does this tell us ?  

	1) avoid airports or ask what distance the CTR is around the airport.
	   outside the CTR the next height restriction is either the military
	   low flying or the Sector A starting at 1000 ft GND. 
	   If you fly below Sector B AND there won't be military low flying,
	   then you're fine till 1700 feet.
	2) In military low flying areas, if you stay below 250 feet (80m), 
	   you're safe (relatively, I've seen helicopters flying below)
	   If you know, what the military low flying level is, probably 500 
	   feet (150m). If there won't be a military low flying zone, 
	   2500 feet (900m) is the absolute limit.
	3) don't fly in Restricted areas (ED-R), they might use your plane
	   as a target drone for guided missiles or others.

	BTW, this is the International Law for Airspace (don't have the exact 
	name handy) and should be applicable everywhere. If you want to know
	about your specific area, the mapps are called (if I remember correct)
	ICAO maps.

	Additionaly to above, we have to keep 1500 meters distance to a 
	village/city. We aren't allowed to fly earlier than 1/2 hour before
	sunrise and after 1/2 hour after sunset. This would be called Night
	Flight.

	There might be special restrictions for model airplanes I don't know
	of. Probably a general height restriction especially for model 
        airplanes. Maybe others can fill in.


                  
	Bernd

In the UK the situation is a bit up in the air at the moment! 8^}

If the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) reach a decision that means we can still 
fly at all, then I'll post the results.

However, this whole discussion brings a supplementary question to mind. Can YOU 
tell how high your 'plane is? I know that I haven't really got a clue, I tried 
pacing away from the 'plane on the ground, and noting how big the plane looks, 
but of course this would only help when it's directly overhead!

Any ideas anyone ?

Cheers

Nigel

    Nigel,
    
    Yes,  I have been reading and hearing about the restrictions that the
    UK are proposing. I have copies here on the draft at home and they are a
    little off unfair. I expect that there will be lots of letter writing
    going on to get some sensible outcome from it all. What they end up
    doing will influence the scene over here in Ireland. 
    
    What height do we fly at... yes this can be difficult if not impossible
    to determine without two way communications. One of the English mags
    had a device to read and hold the max height but thats of little use
    until after the flight. My Casio watch has an altimeter on it and does
    the same thing.
    
    Let me see, X years time, we will have laser or other such exotic
    devices watching our usage of airspace. Seems like the only realistic
    way to make a fix on the height reached and warn us etc.
    
    Certainly telling if a model is at 400' or 500' etc is impossible.

    How can you tell the height of your plane? Hhmmm, that's very
    difficult. Maybe you could develop a feeling if you'd use the Casio
    watch frequently....
                                                             
    
    .... that's one big reason I have avoided to buy one until now. I don't
    WANT to know how illegal I fly...
    
    Best regards,
                  Hartmut

    
    Those watches with altimeter built in also have the peek hold function.
    (Have you read TFM ?) 
    A friend once put such a watch in a 4.5 Meter Sailplane and got it
    towed real high. The big thing looked real small up there. I'd guessed
    that it was around the max height I've flown with my 3.5 Meter
    Sailplane - shure never reach that with a power plane. The altimeter
    showed 550 Meter. I would guess that with a pattern plane you barely
    fly more than 150 meter. The Glider world is different here (again).
    There you melk a thermal as much as you can....
    
    Bernd
    

    I fly at 2 metres all the time! :-) [My height and the average height
    of a Goblin flight session!]
    
    Seriously though. I have experienced problems with flying RC models
    too high. One such incident was at an airfiled that we shared with the
    RAF glider training squadron. The deal was that we flew up-wind of their
    tow machines, by about a mile, and stayed below 1000'. 
    
    One day we got several complaints from instructors that a plane was
    flying above their full size gliders. It was embarassingly so, my plane.
    I was doing spins and was going high to start them.
    
    They went up again with a buddy of mine as a spotter and I went up to
    see what was what with my Gangster 63. I was amazed to find that I was
    measured at 1800' when I thought that I was at about 600". The gauges
    wee a little inaccurate and had to be tapped with a knuckle before a
    reading was taken but the variance between my guess and the gauge was a
    revalation, to say the least.
    
    The site was West Malling Airfield in Kent, England.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric H.

    re .7
    
    Hhhmm, I have been looking at this from a power model point of view
    where 400-600 feet would cover the full range of aerobatics.  Not being
    too into gliders, although I have done some flying, I would be unaware of 
    what heights these would go to especially when they, are you mention, start
    climbing in a thermal.
    
    So, I would think that there is a case where gliders might be justified 
    in requiring a much higher ceiling. Although I believe some weights vs
    heights have been suggested this may or may not be the best approach.
    The difference in weights between the different types of model may not
    be broad enough to be able to categorize it in this manner. 
    
    What might be of interest are the tests that full scale aircraft use on
    jet engine blades or what will cause fatal damage. 
    
    There was some amusement (on this serious problem) in Flight magazine in the 
    Straight and Level  article in a back issue, something about using frozen 
    chickens to test fan blades... I will see if I can dig it up.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric.