Conference vmszoo::rc

    Brown paper has been used in England for covering foam fuselages
    for a long time.  It is applied using water thinned white glue.
    It supposedly resluts in a very hard, durable finish which can be
    painted. 
    
    Many of the smaller electric warbirds(40-50" wingspan) I have seen
    at KRC used this covering method.  Thw wings tended to be covered
    with tissue of film.
    
    
                                                       Regards,
    
                                                       Jim
    
                                               

>                                                 <<< Note 1502.1 by MISFIT::BLUM >>>
>                                                        -< Fusleages too! >-
>
>    Brown paper has been used in England for covering foam fuselages
>    for a long time.  It is applied using water thinned white glue.
>    It supposedly resluts in a very hard, durable finish which can be
>    painted. 

Jim, can they work this stuff around compound curves when it's wet?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

There are some really impressive models about using this technique. I've seen 
some photos recently of a guy (whose name escapes me) flying a huge D/F Backfire 
bomber, complete with swing wing. I know that the fuse was carved foam/brown 
paper, and I believe the wings were too. This was one impressive model. If 
there's any interest I can dig out the article, and post more details.

cheers

Nigel

    I have used Xmas wrapping paper - the posh type, instead of brown
    paper.
    
    E.

    Kay,
    
       I read an article somewhere about applying brown paper with thinned
    out Elmer's white glue.  Apparently it is quite easy to do using
    a brush.  
    
    This method is well suited to electrics because there is no gas
    and oil to destroy the finish.
    
    The examples of Camouflage I have seen using this method were great.
    It provides a light, durable finish.
    
    
                                                            Regards,
    
                                                            Jim

    Regarding the compound curves:
    
    
     I actually had a question on this that i didn't ask in .0. The article
    shows the paper being wetted on what apears to be a large mylar 
    hinged sheet. By large I mean larger than the area of the wing and paper.
    
     Not having used mylar sheets in bagging, and only having watched the
    tapes on it, i seem to remember the mylar sheets being cut to the
    planform of the wing in order for the fiberglass to conform to the
    edges. Is this true. if the mylar is not cut to
    the planform of the wing, how would the edges of the paper on the root
    and tip conform to the wing shape?
    
    i hope my question is clear. If you look at the pictures in the
    article it will probably make more sense.
    
    also, the article had the root and tip finished with a balsa strip
    before bagging to prevent the foam from being crushed. This may be
    related to the mylar sheet being larger.
    
    thanks for input's
    
    mike
          

OH Boy! Another odd-ball material to try out!

The only thing I'd question is that in my experience with foam and
tissue, the foam soaks up the white glue faster than you can put it
on.  Must be some trick if you can do it.

I've also had problems with the paper soaking up any finishing
material.  I've used Flecto Varathane varnish as a sealer with mixed
results.

Gonna give that one a try, thanks.

... the method Jim Blum mentioned for making Paper Mache fiberglass molds. 
Chances are that the mylar is just there to give a smooth outer surface. 
One of the old problems with using white glue on fuselages and such was 
that the material doesn't like to take paint (like John mentioned). If you 
do it was epoxy, that might be less of a problem.

    RE: 1502.3   Nigel, I would be very interested in the article your
    mentioned.
    
    Thanks
    
    Dennis
    

Dennis,

I'm sorry, I searched my pile of mags, but I just can't find that article again! 
However in the April edition of RCM&E there was a short pice on a model that was 
finished with the brown paper & glue technique:

"Finish and construction are Solarfilm on brown paper on foam, the paper applied 
using watered down PVA with a glue to water ratio of approximately 1:4. If 
you've ever contemplated this form of construction, but have yet to try it, let 
me tell you that the results are remarkably strong and produce an ideal surface 
for either paint or film"

Well, there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth! The model in question 
here was a Mick Reeves Disco, which is basically a flying saucer, with a fin! 
It's obviously much smaller than the Backfire, but I guess the construction 
techniques hold good all the way up the scale.

Hope this helps, I'll keep searching for the first article, doubtless I'll find 
it when I'm looking for something else!

Cheers

Nigel.

What's PVA glue?  You Brits are so quaint!  I'll bet it'll turn out to
be flour and water.

    White wood glue. and beware they are closer than you think!!!! ;-)

I've seen watered down Elmers (white glue) used with silkspan over foam. 
It is a better surface to finish from than raw beaded foam.

A bit of reading at the weekend revealed the fascinating fact that when A.V.Roe 
(A British aviation pioneer) built his first aeroplane, he used largely bamboo 
and, would you believe, Brown Paper!! The records do not state whether he used 
PVA, flour and water, or anything else as a finish.

Well if it was good enough for him.......

Cheers

Nigel.

OK thanks to you folks from over the pond.  However, I question that PVA
is the same as white glue since white glue is of the family of
Aliphitic (sp) resins, whatever that means.  The thing that PVA rings
for me is the name of the plastic stuff that the indoor types pour
over water to make their film covering.  But I know I'm wrong about
that.  Isn't PVA used as a parting agent in fiberglass (or rather
GRP) moulding :-).  Never associated it with stickiness.

Actually, I'm very far behind in my Model Aviation reading, think I'm
working on the October issue now--due to some classes I'm taking.  But
I think I remember seeing an article on using paper mache for
cowlings, etc in one of the issues.  And has anybody tried out that
stuff from SIG that you wet out with lacquer thinner and mold?  I
wonder if we could put the brown paper stuff over that; you could then
make a master mold out of 2x4s, put the Sig stuff over it and mold
your shape, then finish it up with the brown paper, or fiberglass and
resin, I suppose.

Geez I still have a couple of big sheets of cardboard in my shop, all
I need is some time to start cutting out another Son of Quick Stick. 

PVA = Poly Vinyl Alcohol = Fiberglass parting agent

Yes, it's water soluble but I don't think it would make a good glue.

    I'm working from home so I am able to check this up.
    
    PVA (on this side of the pond) = Polyvinylacetate.
    
    You buy it powered (Cascamite springs to mind) and mix with water to
    form the adhesive or you can buy it as a liquid (goo). I've been using
    'extra bond' a PVA adhesive from Humbrol to glue my (half-finished)
    Black magic and Yamamoto. This stuff is a general purpose wood adhesive
    and it really dries rock hard.
    
    PVA has two other uses which I encountered when building a brick wall
    three weeks ago. Firstly it can be used as a plasticising agent for
    mortar. Secondly, when patching up concrete or adding a layer of
    concrete to an already dried layer, you paint on PVA adhesive and let
    it dry and the PVA helps bond the two layers of concrete. Honest. I was
    dead surprised and only really believed it when a) I found it mentioned
    in all my home building and DIY refrence books and b) it even says it
    on the bottle of 'extra bond'!!!!
    
    Angus

Is this stuff powdered and kind of a light brown color?  It sounds
like the old wood glue that was used in the days before epoxy.  I
haven't seen in stores, even woodworking stores, in years.   Probably
could use white or yellow glue instead.  The fact that you mix PVA
with water answers the question of how you get the paper fibers wet
enough to mold.

I was at my club's monthly meeting last night, and I saw what I think was a 
quite outstanding model.

First, a little background. The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight is maintained 
by the RAF, and flies regular displays throught the summer. The displays usually 
consist of an Avro Lancaster four engined bomber, escorted by a Supermarine 
Spitfire, and a Hawker Hurricane. For any aviation enthusiast this is a stunning 
sight, and the sound of six, count 'em, six Rolls Royce Merlin engines on song 
is absolutely beautiful.

Anyway, in tribute to this enterprise two men from my club have built a BoB 
flight slope soarer. This stunning model has the Lancaster as the centre piece, 
with the Spitfire and Hurricane connected by glass fibre rods, keeping them in a 
V formation. The really elegant bit is that the whole airframe of each of the 
two escort fighters acts as an elevon! This, combined with the horizontal tail 
surfaces of the Lanc, comprises the control surfaces. The model is to 1/24th 
scale, and weighs in at about 3.5 pounds. The aerofoil on the Lanc is SD3072.

The outfit has been flown at the Hole of Horcum, with great success, the comment 
was "it's a real pussycat".

The reason I'm posting this here is that the construction uses white and pink 
foam, with brown paper covering on top, and glass fibre underneath. The brown 
paper is fixed to the airframe with decorator's size. I don't know what this is 
called on the other side of the pond, but it's the stuff you paint onto walls to 
seal them prior to putting up wallpaper. This results in a finish, which is not 
ding-proof, but reasonably strong, very light, and smooth. 

All in all I came away very very impressed at the ingenuity of the two guys 
concerned, and the quality of this model.

I hope that it will appear in some magazines shortly, maybe with some 
construction details.

Cheers

Nigel.

    On a different tack.
    
    Here is your mission shouold you chose to accept it................
    
    Is there anyone fanatical enough to take about 200 detailed and three
    view photos of the "Last of the Many" for me?. This BoBMF plane is my
    chosen scale subject. I will, of course pay for all the film and
    developing etc.
    
    I need photos of everthing from every angle. I can produce a list for
    someone to follow.
    
    I was hoping to get a trip over to do it myself but you can't get much
    international travel right now. It would require getting permission to
    go in the storage hanger or open standings for about an hour. A good
    35mm camera would be a must.
    
    I know that this is a long shot but one never knows..
    
    Regards
    
    Eric H. 
    
    P.S. "Last of the Many" is a Hurricane
                                                                       

Eric,

I'll (tentatively) volunteer. I've been looking for an excuse to go and take a 
look at the museum anyway. Two things, what's your timescale? I've got to fit 
this in around a bunch of other stuff. Secondly I'm no expert photographer. I 
can get the use of a decent 35mm SLR for the day, but you'd need to tell me 
exactly what you need. 

If you decide to go for this, you can get me on All-in-one with:

Nigel Eaton @LZO

Cheers

Nigel

    The secret is to get an automatic with flash. I have a NIkon 2020 auto 
    focus etc. that is literally idiot proof. A prerequisite I know :-).
    
    I am after the flying Hurricane that has "Last of the Many" painted on
    its side. Do you know wher ethey keep it. It was at Scampton last I
    heard?.
    
    E.
    

Eric,

My wife, who has taken a college course in photography, has volunteered to help, 
so that covers that problem.

I believe that the museum is still at Scampton, I will try to get an address, 
and write to them to get permission to get close to the Hurricane. 

I've seen the "Last of the Many" quite a few times, with the BoB flight, but 
usually at 500 feet and 200mph, I look forward to getting better acquainted!

I'll let you know when I've found out whether they'll let me.

Cheers

Nigel.

    GREAT!

Mr. Moderator, this string appears to be getting out of line ! 8^)

Yes, I know that's because I keep posting unrelated stuff. Anyway, here's some 
more. If anyone's looking to visit the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, then 
don't go to Scampton, 'cos it isn't there! It's now located at RAF Coningsby in 
Lincolnshire.

Eric, I've written to FO Barry Sears, who's in charge of the flight, I'll let 
you know when I get a reply.

Cheers

Nigel

Eric,

Well, I had a reply from the BoB flight, which had mixed tidings. They're more 
than happy to allow me to photograph the Hurricane PZ865. Unfortunately however 
it no longer carries the colours of "The Last of the Many". It seems that they 
repaint the aircraft regularly to represent different squadrons which operated 
through the war.

The aircraft has also been extensively re-modelled inside the cockpit, I don't 
know whether this matters to you? If it does maybe I can find another, 
unmodified, Hurricane to work with?

If you want me to go ahead, let me know and I'll arrange a date.

Cheers

Nigel

    Yes, please still photograph it. It is a different Hurricane in that it 
    has 6 exhaust stubs each side, like a Spit, instead of kidney shaped
    ones. (Later merlins are being used!). It has modern landing lights etc. 
    I need all the details thatI can get. The "Last of the Many" can be 
    substitued later using commercial photos if I wish.
    
    Another wish!. If you get close to the mechanics a couple of drops of 
    sample paint would be aces too!. Actually small cans would be better.
    
    It is great news that you can get in there. 
    
    A sunny day out taking pics, a nice dinner on the way home, on me... 
    couldn't get much better eh?.
    
    Scale documentation is much more important that most people realise.
    Hence all the interest on my part. Also the construction of the frame
    is most critical and can't easy be changed later. For example, If I
    choose to have an opening exit door on the cockpit I need to be very
    sure about the frame strength in that area.
    
    My current search is for a good set of retracts for an 88" span
    wing!!!!!.
     
    Best regards,
   
    Eric H.
       

Eric,

OK, I've set the wheels in motion, and hope to make the visit before the 
beginning of June. Can you mail me a list of the areas you specifically want 
covering? I'll be using a standard 50mm lens, so if there are any close ups you 
need, (< 3ft or so) let me know, and I'll borrow something better!

The sunny day out? Well, we can hope! As regards a dinner on the way home, well 
really not necessary! I'm sooooo pleased to have an excuse to climb over a 
Hurricane you wouldn't believe it! I'll get the films, and I guess you'll need 
the processing done here. When I know what this lot cost, then I'll let you 
know, and we'll come to some arrangement, probably involving you posting me some 
of those ridiculously cheap modelling goods from that side of the pond, sound 
fair?

Cheers

Nigel

    I will build a list and mail it to you. (I wonder how far out of topic
    we are here?) :-)
    
    Must run, or should it be must fly.........
    
    E.

write the list on a...


Brown Paper Bag!

Well, back in the dim and distant past I said I'd try to find the article on the 
Backfire bomber that was covered with brown paper. I never did! However I came 
across a similar idea in the May '93 copy of Radio Modeller, so I thought I'd 
supply a few details. The model this time is a HP Victor B1 bomber. It's built 
by a guy called Chris Golds, who has a reputation for "unusual" models! For 
those unfamiliar with the Victor, it's an amazing piece of equipment. Originally 
built as a nuclear bomber, it soldiers on with the RAF as a tanker. It has a 
crescent wing, a T tail (also a crescent), and a fuselage which appears (like 
Tinkerbell) to have been modelled on Marilyn Monroe, more curves then the Indy 
500! The model spans 10ft, weighs 50 (fifty!) pounds. It's powered by 4 x Rossi 
.90's driving Byrojet DF's. Fuselage is 1mm ply over lite-ply formers, cockpit 
wings, tail surfaces and tail cone from blue foam. 

The Victor is skinned all over with brown paper and wallpaper paste, which is 
sprayed with Polycote (sorry, I'm not familiar with Polycote!). It certainly 
looks impressive in all over white anti-flash finish. 

So, it seems that the paper/paste technique is a viable proposition, even for 
large models. I'm happy with the ways I have of finishing at the moment, but 
I'll certainly bear this one in mind for the future. In the meantime, I'm still 
looking for that blasted Backfire! I know it wasn't my imagination......


Cheers

Nigel.