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Conference vmszoo::rc

Title:Welcome To The Radio Control Conference
Notice:dir's in 11, who's who in 4, sales in 6, auctions 19
Moderator:VMSSG::FRIEDRICHS
Created:Tue Jan 13 1987
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1706
Total number of notes:27193

938.0. "Electronic servo" by WRASSE::FRIEDRICHS (Go B's!!) Fri Mar 24 1989 09:33

Well, I decided to open a new note on this topic rather than continuing it
in the smoke systems topic as I believe that this would be useful for a number
of different applications...

Notes 394, 474 and 644 are related, but don't really answer my problem..

Let me first restate the problem...

People that use other electric devices on an RC vehicals end up either buying
expensive electronic switches like the JOMAR switch for glow drivers (around
$35, I believe) or go to mechanical switches driven by servos...

I am looking for an alternative...  This device will be kept simple.  It need
only detect the 2 positions of the retract switch on the transmitter.  The
states that I need are...


	Tx switch in low position ---> electric device off
		servo receives 1.0 millisecond signal
        Tx switch in high position ---> electric device on
	        servo receives 2.0 milliseconds signal


The only additional requirement is that the flying lights be powered by a 
alternate source, not the Rx pack.

Possible Solutions:
-------------------

0- Is there a device on the market that does this at a reasonable price??
    
1- Build/buy recent RCM (December 88) article unit that controls multiple
devices over the range of stick motion.  Disadvantage here is that it is built
around 1.5 milliseconds and sees motion in both directions.  It also does
multiple devices and therefore is more than I need.
    
I could also try to modify their design...

2a- modify an old servo...  This may make the most sense.  However, I don't know 
how.  The servo (futaba s-28, I believe this is) has the following wiring off 
the circuit board...

	Red,white and black into servo
	Brown, blue and white on micro switch
	Red, black and brown onto motor

How do actuate a relay or similar device from the servo board?  

*** I believe this next way is the simplest way to go... ***
2b- modify an old servo...  If I tie off the micro switch so that in one
throw direction there is always current and in the other direction there is
none.   Then I could just replace the motor with the flying lights.

The big problem here is that I would like to power this servo with an alternate
battery.  Is there a simple way of doing this??

3- ??  I'm open to suggestions!!

Cheers,
jeff

T.RTitleUserPersonal
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938.1Alternate battery hookupLEDS::WATTFri Mar 24 1989 09:489
    It is easy to power the servo with an alternative battery.  Two
    of the three wires going to the servo are power and ground.  If
    you disconnect the plus power lead between the servo and the receiver,
    you can power the servo from a separate battery connected between
    it and ground.  You will need a switch to shut off the extra battery
    when the receiver is off.
    
    Charlie
    
938.2More things in heaven and earth....LEDS::COHENFri Mar 24 1989 17:1815
    What you need is the National Semiconductor servo chip,
    NE544, or something like that.  I'll look it up, and post it here if you
    refresh this topic on Monday to remind me.

    The circuit you want, which is simply an on/off, with feedback being, i
    presume, some sort of limit switch detector, can be readily accomplished
    with a few components, and probably not more than $10.00.  If I have an
    application sheet for the chip in question, I'll make a copy and see if
    I can get it too you.

    It's been done before.


    Randy
938.3Jameco has the NE544NGUSHER::RYDERSun Mar 26 1989 15:428
    Shucks, I ordered some parts from Jameco a couple weks ago --- wish
    I had known.  I could have at least ordered data sheets.
    
    	NE544N	14 pin servo amp				$1.49
    	LM1871N	18 pin radio control radio encoder/transmitter	$1.95
    	LM1872N	18 pin radio control radio receiver/decoder	$1.95
    
    Randy, do you have data sheets on the last two as well?
938.4Still working on it!WRASSE::FRIEDRICHSGo B's!!Mon Mar 27 1989 10:0415
    Well, the aux battery works great.
    
    While examining the servo this weekend, I realized that what I
    initially presumed was just a limiting switch is actually a feedback
    mechanism.  (this comes under "dawn over marble head" :-) ).
    
    So, what I need to do now to modify the servo is someone replace
    the 3 wire mechanical pot with a circuit that will allow the servo
    to travel in one direction and not the other.   Suggestions??
    
    Or, as .2 noted, re-invent the wheel.
    
    Still trying!
    jeff
    
938.5Poop SheetsLEDS::COHENMon Mar 27 1989 14:4514
>    	NE544N	14 pin servo amp				$1.49
>    	LM1871N	18 pin radio control radio encoder/transmitter	$1.95
>    	LM1872N	18 pin radio control radio receiver/decoder	$1.95
>    
>    Randy, do you have data sheets on the last two as well?

    Yep,
    
    I'm pretty sure that I do.  I'll try and remember to look 'em up this
    evening when I get home.

    I'll let you know.

    Randy
938.6Servo BasicsLEDS::WATTMon Mar 27 1989 14:4711
    Jeff,
    	I don't know whether this will help or not but what you have
    in the servo is a special chip that tries to turn the motor forward
    or backward to match the pot position with the pulse width of the
    input signal.  If you take a servo apart and plug it into a receiver,
    you can move the joystick and see what the motor does 'open loop'
    The farther the pot position is from the desired position, the faster
    the motor runs.  Maybe you can use this to do what you want.
    
    Charlie
    
938.7WRASSE::FRIEDRICHSGo B's!!Mon Mar 27 1989 15:4410
    Open loop the servo continues in one direction continuously.  I
    had hoped that removing one lead of the pot would allow continuous
    motion in one direction and no motion in the other.  However, the
    servo never stops.
    
    I am going to try to use a couple of resistors to simulate a specific
    position on the pot (namely fully turned in one direction).
    
    jeff
    
938.8Project (this part, at least) completed!WRASSE::FRIEDRICHSGo B's!!Tue Mar 28 1989 10:4415
    Well, it is done and it works!!!  It is actually very simple once
    I realized what I needed to do...
    
    I simply had to replace the feedback pot with a 10k adjustable pot.
    Then I just had to adjust the pot so that it matched the resistence
    for the chip.
    
    Along with an alternate battery source, I now of a switchable motor.
    
    Now, back to the SMOKE topic...
    
    Thanks all for your help!
    
    jeff
    
938.9Servo TutorialK::FISHERStop and Smell the Balsa!Tue Jan 23 1990 15:26197
Just got this from the UUCP net.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################
From: [email protected]
Subject: Servo Tutorial (Long--Good)
Date: 20 Jan 90 01:48:54 GMT
 
 
Tutorial on servos:
 
Once, a year ago or so, I posted an explanation on the innards of
an R/C servo. It would seem that it might time to post it again. I
did not save a copy of the last posting, so, will do so from the
beginning again. Some history is included.
 
I give first an operational discription, followed by a crude logic
drawing/schematic.
 
The stages within the servo are:
 
1--A pulse generator.
 
2--A pulse comparator.
 
3--A pulse stretching circuit.
 
4--Output drivers to the motor, in both minus and plus polarity.
 
5--A feedback or "look ahead" circuit.
 
6--Motor/geartrain/pot, most servos contain four gears, not counting
   the pinion on the motor. The pot is connected to the servo output
   shaft. If the output turns 90 degrees, then the pot wiper moves
   90 degrees.
 
 
In operation, the incoming pulse from the receiver or pulse source
of your choice triggers the pulse generator internal to the servo.
The time constant of the internal pulse is controlled by the pot
in the servo. In the past some manufacturers used negative pulse
servos, but at this time, I believe most all use positive pulse
types.
 
In the beginning, servos were built up with discrete parts, until
Phil Kraft paid Texas Instruments something in the order of $250,000
to lay up the first IC servo chip. After that, many others followed.
The first servos were called 4 wire servos, improved design brought
about the bridge configuration in the output stages and they became
3 wire servos. Loss of a single cell in the battery pack did not cause
slow run in one direction and normal speed the other direction.
 
Also, in the early days, Heathkit marketed a servo with a variable
capacitor as the time adjustment in the servo. This removed the dirty
pot blues, but limited the possible reduction in physical size that
could be achieved. It fell by the wayside as a result. I have always
felt that a magnet and magnetic field sensing logic might be the way
to go. Hall effect transistors might be employed.
 
The incoming pulse is a positive pulse, the one generated within
the servo is a negative going pulse. The two pulses are fed to
a summing circuit (comparator). If no pulse exists and voltage is
applied to the servo, the summing output is 1/2 of applied voltage.
Assuming applied supply to be 5 volts, the output at the summing 
circuit is 2.5 volts.
 
When a pulse arrives at the input of the servo, which is positive,
it triggers the negative pulse in the servo. With both pulses
present at the summing circuit, the output is still at 2.5 volts.
When the shorter of the two pulses goes away, the output of the
summing circuit changes to the polarity of the remaining pulse.
 
If the input pulse were shorter, the output of the summing circuit
would be 0 volts as the input pulse went away, until the negative
pulse timed out, whereby it would return to 2.5 volts.
 
If the input pulse were longer, the output of the summing circuit
would be 5 volts after the internal negative pulse timed out, until
the input pulse went away.
 
The output stages are a totem pole arrangement, where input to them
at the 1/2 voltage level turns nothing on and the motor does not
run. The summing circuit drives the output stages, so when it is
at the 1/2 voltage, there is no drive. When either at the 0 or 5 volt
level, the summing circuit will activate a pair of drivers. There
are four drivers, arranged in pairs, such that either lead of the
motor can be pulled to plus or minus. The arrangement is such that
one of each gets turned on. If one motor lead is pulled to 0, the
opposite will be at 5 volts.
 
The servo actually runs on an error in timing between the two pulse
lengths, when they equal, no activity takes place. Modern servos can
detect an error as small as 4 or 5 micro seconds, which is the dead
band time of the servo.
 
The pulse stretching is usually a capacitor connected to the summing
curcuit output, such that it will remain at the other than 2.5 volt
level for a little time, after both pulses are gone (provides drive
to the motor between pulses). The drive voltage from the summing/stretch
circuit rises quickly as the error occurs, but decays at an exponential
rate. If the servo is updated at a low rate, the torque at the servo
output is less than if it is updated more often. This is because the
drive voltage does not get the chance to decay to a low point on the
exponential curve before it gets updated again.
 
The feedback or look ahead circuit is a lead tied to one of the
two motor terminals, which has a resistor going to the summing circuit
output. This is usually done on the PC board, so you will not see an
additional third motor lead. The purpose of the feedback is to shift
the output of the summing circuit by a few millivolts, in one direction
or the other, depending on which way the motor is running. This causes
the motor to shut down slightly before the two pulses are actually
equal, and allows for the coasting of the motor as it comes to a stop.
If the motor shuts off at the correct time, it will not coast PAST the
desired point, generating another error in the wrong direction causing
the servo to then back up. In practice, the servo would "dither", or
chatter.
 
As a note of knowledge, the "Autopilot" developed by Mr. Hill amplified
the difference in electrostatic voltages, wingtip to wingtip, and the
output of the amp was fed to the summing circuit, such that it could
cause the servo to move based on wing tip elevation. This fact indicates
that if one is clever, the servo CAN be moved via a DC voltage input at
that point. For those interested in this, but not fimiliar, the AMA
magazine, plus others carried articles on this some years back, and
were entitled "An Electrostatic Autopilot", by Mr. Meynard Hill.
 
Logic/schematic:
 
                                    ---
                                   |   |
Input pulse                   _____|   |______ 
  >-------------------------------------
            |                           \
            |  Summing resistors------> /
            |                           \____________
            |                           /     |      |
            |          ------           \     |      |
            |         |Pulse |          /     |     ___
             -------->|      |----------      |     --- <--Pulse stretch
               +5V    | Gen  | ----     ----  |      |
                |      ------      |   |      |      |
                /        ^         |   |      |     Gnd
                \        |          ---       |
                /<------                      |
  Position pot->\    ^                        |
  tied to the   /    |                        |
  gear train.   \     -Feedback goes          |
                |      here in some           |
               Gnd     designs.               |
                                              |
            ------------------------------------------------
           |                |                               |
           |                \                               |
           |         5V     /<--Feedback          5V        |
           |         |      \                     |         |
           |         |      /                     |         |
           |      -------   |                  -------      |
           |     |       |  |                 |       |     |
           |     | Pos   |  |                 | Pos   |     |
           |   ->|       |  |                 |       |<-   |
           |  |  | Amp   |  |                 |  Amp  |  |  |
           |  |  |       |  |                 |       |  |  |
           |  |   -------   |   -------        -------   |  |
           |  |      |      |  |       |          |      |  |
            ->|      |-------->| Motor |<---------|      |<-
              |      |         |       |   ^      |      |
              |   -------       -------    |   -------   |
              |  |       | In early servos-   |       |  |
              |  | Neg   | this motor pin     |  Neg  |  |
              |->|       | went to battery    |       |<-|
                 | Amp   | center tap and     |  Amp  |
                 |       | the totem pole     |       |
                  -------  to the right did    -------
                     |     not exist.             |
                     |                            |
                     |                            |
                    Gnd                          Gnd
 
In the above amplifiers, they are multiple stage. Some designs
have all transistors contained within the servo IC, others have
the preamp in the IC and the drivers are external to the IC.
The outputs going to the motor above COULD in fact drive external
darlingtons to run a really big motor/gear train and the position
pot could be external to the above logic, gear reduced such that
several turns of the output shaft would be possible. A tiller
servo on a 12' R/C sail boat might be an example.
 
Just dream on...........
 
 
Al Irwin
Univ of Illinois
Dept of Comp Sci
[email protected]