Conference vmszoo::rc

    
    		Just had to add my two cents as this has been a lively
    	discussion I didn't want to miss out on.
    		I completly agree with Al about coupling. I have even
    	had second thoughts about dual rates but I think for the time
    	being I'll keep them but won't use them any more. I really want
    	to fly this plane and not have it flown by the transmitter.
    	I feel like this method of flying although maybe slightly 
    	more difficult when mastered will make me a better (read
    	more capable under emergency conditions) flier.
    
    					Mike
    

    	While the subject of features or extra complexity whichever
    way you see it, one very important disadvantage of these extra
    switches is the possibility of having them in the wrong position.
    If you use dual rates, be sure that you do check their positions
    before each flight.  If you have a dual rate transmitter and you
    do not wish to use the dual rates, set them up at maximum so that
    the switch positon makes no difference on your control gain.  I
    personally find dual rates handy for adding extra control for
    hotdog manuvers like snap rolls.  My plane needs lots of up
    elevator and rudder to snap properly.  I normally fly on low
    rate for smoother control.  I am willing to admitt that I could
    easily forget to check the rate switches sometime and be surprised.
    There is always a reliability price to be paid for extra complexity.
    
    Charlie
    

    	I forgot one thing in .82.  It pays to know your transmitter's
    features and how they work.  Dual rates on means low rate.  I have
    heard of people flipping the wrong switch and being surprised, 
    especially if they own more than one model transmitter.  For example,
    holding the trainer switch on disables your transmitter completely!
    It is hard to look at the switches while flying, so you need to
    memorize their positions.  If you use coupling, you must remember
    which way is on.  I know from personal experience that it is easy
    to get confused, especially if you don't use a feature that often.
    
    	Most of the better transmitters have these options, so even
    if you don't want to use them, you must know how not to use them.
    
    Charlie
    

Since this subject just doesn't want to go away, I wish to take one FINAL stab 
at explaining my position and the whys of it regarding bells/whistles, special
features on today's radio systems.  First, let's itemize what we're discussing
here:	
	1. Dual-rate elevator, aileron and (occasionally) rudder
	2. Roll button
	3. Snap-roll button
	4. Aileron/rudder mixer (also called coupler)
	5. Elevator/rudder mixer (sometimes called V-tail mixer)
	6. Elevator/aileron mixer (deflects ailerons opposite applied elevator,
	   sometimes called flaperon mixer)
	7. Flap/elevator mixer (resets elevator trim when flaps are deployed)
	8. Servo-reversing switch
	9. servo-centering adjust
       10. servo end-point adjust

There are probably more but these will suffice for this commentary.  I have ab-
solutely NO axe to grind regarding items 8. 9 and 10;  I see these as the best 
thing since canned beer for simplifying radio installation/setup in a new air-
plane...just take care to KNOW where the reversing switches are and whether 
they're correct.

But, let's take an honest look at items 1-thru-7: these features evolved from 
the needs/desires of one primary group of modelers...the pattern flier.  Make no
mistake, this is not a statement of personal opinion, hearsay or educated guess-
work; with the exception of item 5 (which came from the sailplane faction), ALL
of these features were the direct result of inputs/requests from the pattern 
fraternity.  Don't misunderstand, I'm not attempting to condemn the pattern fac-
tion, but, rather, am trying to ram home the origin of these bells/whistles. A
quick analysis of what these features can do should remove any doubt as to the
validity of this statement of fact.

Now, if we can all accept the pattern-origin of these features (at least for the
sake of argument), let's take things a step further and delve into the "why" be-
hind them.  As pattern flying evolved into the realm of ever more exacting pre-
cision, it became necessary (at least in the minds of some) to try to attain 
more predictable behavior of the pattern ship in certain maneuvers/attitudes by
letting the radio make some of the more difficult control inputs, e.g. let the
roll button input a pre-selected amount of aileron throw so the pilot can con-
centrate on only having to fly the elevator (and rudder) with no risk of distur-
bing the roll-rate during a slow roll.  Similar rationale applies to (and, in-
deed, gave birth to) virtually all the subsequently added "special-feature" but-
tons and switches.  The point of all this is that these features were developed
by-and-for advanced and expert pattern pilots (who had already mastered the ba-
sic flight controls) to enhance the precision required of them in competition.

On this premise, I contend that AT NO TIME were these features EVER intended to
be automated "training wheels" for the fledgling R/C pilot.  To my mind, virtu-
ally all radio manufacturers have been rather irresponsible in promoting (or, at
least in doing nothing to dispell) this presumption.  In their quest to stay a-
breast of the rapidly advancing state-of-the-art (and competitive), they have
ignored, overlooked or dismissed their responsibility to define exactly what 
these features are intended to do AND FOR WHOM!  They've totally neglected to 
encourage the newcomer to fully understand and "master" the use of the 4-basic
flight controls "before" experimenting with the special-features, many of which
can be the "kiss-of-death" to the fledgling who expects the radio to save his
bacon because he has come to "rely" upon a "wazoo-switch."

I'm afraid that I can't even totally buy the proposition that "at least the 
bells/whistles allow increased air-time" as I question the value of that air-
time when it allows bad habits or dependencies to be developed.  What good is
all that time when a beginner still doesn't understand the basics and is let-
ting the radio do the work?  If he ever intends to become a truly accomplished
pilot, he has just that much more to "un-learn," only to discover how little he
actually learned in the first place.  Nope, while I know many of you will dis-
agree with me to-the-death, I simply cannot be convinced that there is any bet-
ter way to learn than to learn the basics FIRST, and, only then, experiment with
what the gadgets can do for you.  Can you imagine taking flying lessons (full-
scale) and being taught the auto-pilot, electronic navigation etc. BEFORE you've
been taught the "basics" of pilotage and manual navigation?  Believe me, guys, 
it just doesn't happen that way!  Why shoud we be any different?  Are we not 
trying to replicate full-scale flight...are we not subject to ALL the same laws
of aerodynamics??  I think we're deluding ourselves to believe there are "any"
viable shortcuts to crawling before we walk.  To consider and use special-fea-
tures as training aids may eventually bring one to the same point as the guy who
learned the basics "first," but I'll wager the shortcutter will have a more dif-
ficult time of it and will bust up a lot more hardware in the process.

Well, that's about it.  I've spoken my LAST piece regarding this issue.  We're
deadlocked in a no-win harrangue in which I'll stand on my position to the grave
and so will many with opposing views.  It's pointless to continue beating a dead
horse so I rest my case for you to accept or reject as you see fit with the pro-
mise never to broach the subject again.

Adios amigos,	Al

    On the subject of special bells/whistles, the helicopter radio falls
    into a special catagory.  I would highly recommend anyone getting
    into choppers to get a heli radio.  The main features that I feel
    are nearly a requirement (and with some choppers actually are required)
    are the collective pitch/throttle mix, and the tail rotor compensation.
    
    For the beginner, these cut down the learning curve tremendously,
    and are used full time, not just once and a while. If you want to
    progress into rolls, loops, or autos, throttle hold and idle up
    are really necessary functions, although it would be nice if they
    had inhibit switches on them. (some radios do have the inhibit).
    I had a crash because I hit the idle up switch while I was just
    learning to hover, and by the time I realized what happened, the
    chopper was in the ground.
    
    The invert switch is only used if a person wants to fly inverted,
    but is almost required if inverted flight is desired.  Obviously,
    there are other features that are less needed, but I think that
    due to the nature of the chopper, the type of features found on
    most basic heli radios are nice to have and almost necessary to
    have in most cases.
    
    Ken

		I think it's about time someone said something
	in defense of rates.. They're great, you can set the
	response of the plane to be as sharp as your a**e will
	allow ..... As you get used to the plane you can wind
	in more movement...
	
	I don't have any of the other goodies on my fixed wing
	set. But I've seen very experienced fliers crash 'cos
	a goody switch got knocked on...


		Helicopter's on the other hand need all the twiddly
	bits to stand any chance of flying decently... I mostly don't
	have the ATS switched in, it's such a pain to get it set 
	correctly.. The Giro and my left hand keep the tail under
	control....

		If you want to develop your skills at rudder/aileron
	coordination try a helicoptor. 
                          
        cheers

	bob

    Helicopters are a DEFINITE EXCEPTION.  Like the full-scale articles,
    they need a little "system help" to put the flight controls within
    the reach of a human's motor skills.  Rates, judiciously and care-
    fully used can also be an asset, but that's it `til the basics are
    absorbed.	Al

>    Helicopters are a DEFINITE EXCEPTION.  Like the full-scale articles,
>    they need a little "system help" to put the flight controls within
>    the reach of a human's motor skills.  

	
	Bit of an understatement here Al. They need a lot of help, in
	fact the better you get the more help you need. Now if that
	isn't a wierd statement nothing is..


	bob

    
    	From what I've seen (not being a heli pilot yet) I must agree
    with bob. There have been about ten people try choppers in my club.
    Of the ten four have made it, five have given up and one is trying
    again. The five that have given it up all went along the same path.
    The purchased the cheap chopper with fixed pitch and tried to use
    an aeroplane radio with mechanical hook ups rather than electrical
    via the radio. The ones that have been successful all have purchased
    choppers with collective pitch and heli radios. The radio choise
    has always been the JR Century VII.  The adjustability of this radio
    helps with the set up and get you hovering faster rather than fiddling
    with the chopper. My two buddies have now been flying for about
    one month. This is better equated to the amount of fuel burned.
    It seems that after one gallon of fuel one is comfortable and can
    hover pretty much at will where one wants to hover. One rule they
    have impressed in me already is to learn to hover 10 inches off
    of the ground. This is the hardest place to hover but the safest
    if one gets into trouble. It seem that once you can hover at this
    altitude one can hover higher without fear of serious damage.
    The two latest graduates are now as of this week into forward flight.
    They say that forward flight is easier than hovering. The fun begins
    wher you come out of forward flight and into a hover.  I'll be
    joining them in a month or so once I have the money to buy a JR
    Century VII. I already have a shuttle with a brat .28.
    
    
    
    					Tom

    RE:HELI Radio's
    
    Just want to throw in my two cents. A gyro will tame the tail of
    a copter no matter what radio is used. However, using a heli radio
    that is properly set up you can live with out the gyro! I never
    could fly my Cobra with the gyro off untill I had an expert set
    the radio. Now I can fly with or without gyro. Normally I fly with
    it on but if it ever fails I still have the radio to fall back on.
    
    Dan