Conference vmszoo::rc

    Judging from the amount of response, not many folks send there plans
    out to be kitted. 
    
    Oh well.
    
    norm
    

    Norm,
    
    I hate to sound ignorant, but I wasn't aware that such a service
    even existed..    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to hook a cutting laser up to my X-Y plotter (or 
to a pantograph, for that matter). That would sure make it easy to cut out 
precise copies of wing ribs, etc. I have a friend who manufactures model 
railroad kits. In his latest release, he had all of the basswood parts (walls, 
windows etc.) laser-cut by some commercial outfit.

Dave

    Usually the problem is finding a source for the plans, not finding
    the materials to build with.  I've heard of services which will
    sell you the plans for airplanes, but I haven't heard of one that
    will kit it for you.  A few bits of balsa and you're all set, right?
    No.  It isn't always that easy but there are outfits that sell
    wheels and others for canopies... etc.  What do you have trouble
    finding?
    
    Glenn

    
    I have seen ads for getting kits made from plans. Don't have a name
    or address on the tip of my tongue, but suggest you check out some
    back issues of RCM and Model Airplane News.
    
    Dan
    

    
    What seem to be the problem? Kit it your self. What plan/ship are
    you planning on building?  Is the issue that you haven't the tools?
    Let talk this up a bit....
    
    					Tom

Gotta agree with you on that one, Tom.  Its just not that hard to
make the kit pieces yourself.  If you (the person that posted
this topic) have a question, ask it, odds are we have an answer
out here somewhere.

Just to kick things off, I use tracing vellum to lift the
parts off the plans.  Then, depending on the part, I'll cut it
out of the vellum, or glue the vellum onto plywood with BestTest,
or glue the vellum onto the cardboard from the back of pads (I
save every one), to make a pattern.  Its not that difficult.

Actually I usually go one step further, I take the drawing
directly from the magazine page and draft it out full size
myself.  The back sides of 18" line printer paper is perfect for
this.  The thing that makes this feasible is that most kit
designers are not that good of draftsmen themselves.  They
usually have enough straight lines that you can measure off to
get the tricky curves, etc.  Most curves are easily reproducible
with a simple french curve.  

For parts that are complex or time-consuming to draw, such as
wing ribs, I use the good ol Xerox machine with 11x17 paper.  Its
suprisingly accurate. 

Just don't see how paying someone to kit your model can be cost
effective. 

    Here's a trick I've used with moderate success:

    When you get the full sized plans, make photocopies of all of the
    wing ribs, fuselage formers, etc.  Then, place the photocopy
    directly on the balsa with the image (black lines) down (touching
    the balsa).  Take your MonoKote or household iron and "transfer" the
    photocopy image to the balsa.  Now you have a "printed" sheet of
    balsa to cut out.

    This is a tricky process and will take some experimentation to get
    right.  Make sure the photocopy has very dark lines and you use a
    high heat to do the transfer.

    By the way, dispite the fact that I've scratch built a couple of
    planes, I think I'd rather pay someone to cut out all the parts for
    me.  It's true that it's not too hard to do but, it can be time
    comsuming.

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

    I haven't tried the Xerox-transfer method myself and it has always
    sounded like a slick idea to me _but_ be aware that there is _inten-
    tional_ distortion (magnification) built into any/all Xerox or Xerox
    [dry] process copier AND it's non-linear.  The image of the copy
    will be stretched from 4-to-6% lengthwise and blown out from 2-to-4%
    widthwise.  This, as I say, is done intentionally to compensate
    for minor inconsistencies in paper delivery and registration over
    the image on the copier's drum/plate.  Please accept this as gospel
    as I worked for Xerox as a Field Service Engineer for just short
    of 12-years immediately prior to coming to DEC some 9-years ago.
    
    Will this error cause a problem?  Most likely not, at least not
    a serious one, but you should be aware of the fact that you are
    introducing a slight error into the model and it and its parts will
    "grow" slightly using the Xerox-transfer method.
    
    Like John (Tavares), I trace all the parts from the plan onto tracing
    vellum (available at any art/drafting supply house) but, from there,
    our methods differ.  I don't care for gluing patterns onto the wood,
    only to have to peel them off after the part is cut out.  I prefer
    to use dressmakers' carbon-paper to transfer the pattern onto the
    wood using a stylus (or worn out ball-point pen) for the straight
    lines and a Dritz-wheel (like a clock gear mounted on a handle)
    for all the curves.  All of these items are available from yer'
    local sewing/dress-material store.  The carbon-paper comes in various
    colors (even white) but I recommend the black and blue as the
    best/easiest to see.  This leaves a nice outline on the wood which
    can be easily cut out (slightly oversize/outside the line) and sanded
    to finished shape with a sanding block.  Multiple parts are made
    by stacking the necessary number of pieces of wood together, pinning 
    them together and cutting them all out at once.  BTW, a jig-saw
    and disc-sander are a windfall to scratch-building; I use the small
    Dremel varieties of these tools and they work excellently for the
    task.
    
    Kay, I'm not sure I'd publically advertise my prowess as a RE-kitter,
    were I you. ;B^}  I'll keep yer' service in mind, should I ever
    need it (which I kinda' doubt) but the MiG-3 isn't ready for such
    a fate as yet, thanks just the same.  :B^)  Maybe Kevin'll let you
    practice on his new P-47.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I'd still like to hear from the originator of this note on what
    ship is being built?
    
    						Tom

Re. Note 636.10 by PNO::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >
<	The image of the copy will be stretched from 4-to-6% lengthwise 
<	and blown out from 2-to-4% widthwise.  

That may have been the case with earlier copiers, but at least part of that
problem is now moot. I've used one of the copiers which is equipped with a
variable zoom feature, in which one selects the appoximate magnification/
reduction in large steps and then going up or down in 1% increments. Most
recently, I used this method to copy plans for an HO scale railroad turntable
model and the dimensions were within an inch or two (scale) over a span of 60
scale feet. I've heard of (but never actually tried) transferring Xerox copies
to wood (bass or balsa) by ironing the back of the copy onto the wood in
question. If that works, there may still be a problem with the relative scales
in the X and Y directions, but not much. 

Dave 

    re .10
    
    Al, while I agree with you that a Xerox copier is not faithful,
    I was under the impression that this was done intentionally for
    legal reasons (so the copy can be distinguished from the original
    - for whatever reason...). Just something I pulled out from the
    back of my mind...
    
    I don't know if this is applicable to model planes, but here is
    a tip I got from attending a seminar on homebuilt Sailplanes (1:1)
    at Oshkosh, by Dick Schreder, who has some 27 different types under
    his belt.
    
    He uses foam ribs to which aluminum sheeting is stuck. This foam
    isn't the white styrofoam we see, but seems more like plastic wire(s)
    that have been squashed into a sheet and heated a wee bit so-to-speak.
    
    How does he cut all the ribs to the same exact size? (Laminar-flow
    wings conform to the ideal as close as 1 mil / inch). He uses a
    plastic (perspex?) rib as a template, onto which he anchors a couple
    of rough-cut foam ribs. The template is cut oversize to compensate
    for the router's cutter and the metal stud on the router table against
    which he guides the template rib. Voila! Identical ribs quickly mass
     produced, with a smoot cut too!
    
    Wonder if this method is used at all by any of the scratch builders?
    I personally have used the vellum/carbon paper routine described
    earlier...
    
    ajai
    
    

    Tom,
    
    The ship I'm going to build is the SPARROW. The plans are from the
    September 1988 issue of Model Aviation.

    Norm,                   
    
    I saw the Sparrow in M.A. and I'd have to say that this would be
    and ideal first scratch-building project.  It's a very basic box
    fuse with constant-chord wing which would be a snap to cut parts
    for.  If its a case of apprehension, I'd have to encourage you to
    lay yer' fears aside and give it a whirl.  It's not nearly as difficult
    as you might imagine and you have ooooodles of help right at yer'
    finger-tips via the notes_file.  Frankly, almost _any_ price for
    having this simple an aircraft pre-kitted for you would negate any
    advantage to scratch-building it and you'd be as well off to purchase
    a kit for a similar looking airplane...there're many of 'em around,
    believe me.     

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    I'll have to check it out. I thought that the last design offered
    had a  dual tapered wing. In any event If it has a constant cord
    wing then that a simple task. First make a rib template from some
    1/8" aircraft grade ply. Install two small 1/8 inch laminates of
    ply app 3/8 x 3/8 at the leading edge and as close to the trailing
    edge as possible. Understand that the laminates cannot hang over
    the edge. Now drive two pins thru the 1/4 inch thick section so
    that the pointed end of the pin extends thru the template app. 1/8
    of an inch. Now the template is ready for use. The tips of the pins
    will keep the template stationary on the balsa as you cut the rib
    out with aan exacto knife.
    The formers are best traced on drafting paper and then transfered
    to the building material using carbon paper.
    To do the fuse side I lay the plan section onto my building board
    and run a row of pins along the top surface of the fuse side and
    along the firewall. I then wrap carbon paper over a piece of balsa
    for the fuse side and slide it in between the plan and the building
    board until it abutts the pins. I then pin through the plans/balso
    into the building board. Now trace the fuse side. Remove the pins
    and one fuse side is ready for cutting. To cut two identical fuse
    sides glue a second fuse side sheet onto the printed one you just
    made. Glue them on the excess wood that will be cut off in the cutting
    process. With a scroll saw or exacto cut out the two fuse sides
    at the same time.
    
    Gee your over half way there to the scratch bird. Bet you didn't
    think it was going to be this easy??
    
    
    						Tom

Re. Xerox copies. 

Just for the heck of it, last night I tried transferring plans from a Xerox �
copy to balsa and it worked fine. I used my sealing iron set at the highest
temperature setting (a fabric pressing iron would probably work just as well or
even better since it covers a larger area at once). It helps to have a dark copy
to work from, the more toner the better. 

Dave 

    I'm an old FF glider flyer. It used to drive me crazy cutting
    masses of ribs for a large wing. At least it did until I found
    a real quick way of doing it.
    
    Start by cutting a rectangular piece of sheet balsa for each rib
    you need. Stack pieces in a nice neet pile. Cut 2 pieces of thin
    ply (1/16) the same size as the balsa sheet. Transfer the outline
    of one rib to one piece of ply. place that on the top of the stack
    and the other piece of ply on the bottom. Clamp the whole stack
    together using a C clamp. Run the entire stack through a bandsaw
    with a nice fine blade. The plywood pieces on each end of the stack
    keep the edges of the balsa nice and clean. All the splintering
    ends up on the bottom side of the plywood. Tapered ribs can be cut
    the same way by tilting the stack as it is passed through the bandsaw.
    

    Does anyone in this file have any experience or knowledge conserning
    Bill Effinger pattern and plan sets? In a recent model aviation I
    saw a picture of a buhl pup and theres something about it I like.
    I see that W.E. Technical services has plans. One more question.
    has anyone flow, built, or seen first hand a buhl pup? How big 
    is a 1/5 scale bird gonna come out?
    
                                                      Thanks noters

>                      <<< Note 636.19 by CSLALL::ONEILL >>>
>                                 -< Buhl Pup >-
>
>    Does anyone in this file have any experience or knowledge conserning
>    Bill Effinger pattern and plan sets? In a recent model aviation I
>    saw a picture of a buhl pup and theres something about it I like.
>    I see that W.E. Technical services has plans. One more question.
>    has anyone flow, built, or seen first hand a buhl pup? How big 
>    is a 1/5 scale bird gonna come out?
>    
>                                                      Thanks noters

I don't know - but I know someone who does know.
Call Al Casey.
Tell him I sent you.  I mailed him something a couple of weeks ago.

(602)516-3754

Tell us what he said.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

                      <<< Note 636.19 by CSLALL::ONEILL >>>
                                 -< Buhl Pup >-

    Does anyone in this file have any experience or knowledge conserning
    Bill Effinger pattern and plan sets? In a recent model aviation I
    saw a picture of a buhl pup and theres something about it I like.
    I see that W.E. Technical services has plans. One more question.
    has anyone flow, built, or seen first hand a buhl pup? How big 
    is a 1/5 scale bird gonna come out?
    
                                                      Thanks noters

Hi all.... its been a long time since I entered anything here. Too much
work and not enough play!

Back to the subject. Bill Effinger has had a lot of nice designs that have
covered many years of model airplane building. I have 3 sets of his plans.
The plans are drawn well but the reproduction stinks. Most are faded blue line
on a faded slightly lighter blue background (standard over exposed blue prints).

The plans I have are for the Fokker VII (I think they are serial number 3 or
4), a SE-5A, and a Curtis Falcon. All of the plans are on multiple large
sheets. All of them hard to read. The best being the Fokker the worst and also
the nicest of the 3 is the Falcon.

He has set most of his larger aircraft up to receive a portable engine mount 
that is removable and swapable among his designs. The engine mount contains the
full tank and the proper mounting layouts for a Quadra 35.

He normally includes one or two sheets that has just the patterns of the parts.
This way you don't butcher the plans just the templates.

His plans are not too expensive and they do hold a lot of detail. I am not sure
how scale they are though.