Conference vmszoo::rc

    Kay,
    
    	I use the scroll was about as much as I use my band was. For
    formers fuse sides and misc. other items. For ribs (constant cord
    wings) I usually use the saw to make a template and then hand cut
    the ribs one at a time. It really doesn't take all that long. I
    can make a template and cut out all the ribs for a 60 inch wing
    in about one hour. With a band or scroll saw you have to be careful
    that everything is square and that there is no blade lag. If either
    condition happens you will find that some of your ribs are smaller.
    Definately go with the scroll saw. Youo'll find a lot of uses for
    it. For ribs however make a template and hand cut them. After you
    have cut a couple out every one of them will match exactly.
    
    						Tom

Kay,	

The two most versatile, handiest and most frequently used power tools in my 
workshop (aside from the obvious electric drill] are my Dremel jig-saw [Moto-
Shop] and Dremel disc/belt sander.  Yeah, they're a little expensive but, as 
you've already discovered, an equivalent tool is hard to find for less money
outside of the hobby and, once you get used to having these tools at yer' dis-
posal, you'll honestly wonder how you ever built a model without them.

I already had the jig-saw but bought the disc/belt sander just as I was start-
ing construction on the scratch-built MiG-3.  These two tools took just about 
all the pain out of "self-kitting" the necessary parts for the ship.  I used
drafting vellum to trace all parts from the drawings, then traced them onto the
appropriate balsa/ply/etc. using dressmaker's carbon paper [available from any 
store which sells material, patterns, etc. for sewing] and a combination of a
tracing stylus [a worn out ball-point pen will work nearly as well] and a Dritz-
wheel [little gear-like toothed wheel mounted in a wooden handle for tracing
sewing patterns onto cloth material - buy one at the same place you buy the 
dressmaker's carbon paper].  The parts were then roughly cut out on the jig-saw,
leaving 1/8" or so excess around the outline.  Then the parts were taken to the 
disc-sander and carefully sanded to the final outline/shape, just like the hand
sanded parts found in the finest quality kits.  This process and these two tools
not only took all the pain out of scratch-building, they actually made it a very
pleasureable and satisfying experience.

Since the MiG has a double tapered wing, no two ribs were the same which elim-
inated the use of the stacking method of rib-cutting [except, of course, that 
two of each rib were fabricated].  Most parts "did" require two of each to be
made, however, and these were done by pinning an appropriate sized piece of bal-
sa [or whatever] "under" the piece with the pattern traced on it, then jig-saw-
ing/disc-sanding as though it were a single part.  This ensured symmetry of both
sides of the fuse and both wing/stab panels.  As I recall, yer' limited to 3, 
maybe 4" maximum so you can't stack anything higher than that but that hasn't
caused me any "real" inconvenience.  For stacked parts higher that the saw will
accomodate, I merely rough cut the blanks in stack-heights the saw "will" handle
and, then, stack everything together and finish-sand to final shape on the disc-
sander..., simple.  Actually, a band saw is required to provide the ability to
cut almost unlimited height materials.

To cutout the inside of a rib/former/whatever, simply drill a 1/4" hole anywhere
inside the area to be cut out.  Then, loosen the jig-saw blade from the top 
scroll arm, pull the blade back a little, place it through the 1/4" hole and
reattach the blade to the scroll arm.  Now, cut out the desired area, turn the 
saw off, and, reversing the procedure, remove the finished part from around the 
saw blade.

I also use the saw to make my own triangle stock [much cheaper] by clamping 
guides onto the saw table and adjusting the table 45-degrees to the blade; works
like a champ...fast and easy.

I don't use the power takeoff features of the Moto-Shop much as my Dremel-tool 
does all this type work for me and I already have a small grinder so the grind-
ing wheel is superfluous also.  But, I find the wire-wheel verrrry handy and 
leave this attached to the power takeoff virtually all the time.

If I thought about it a bit, I'm sure I could come up with numerous other uses/
advantages for the jig-saw and disc/belt sander.  While I "did" for many years,
I don't think I could build anything anymore without these two tools.  I highly
recommend the saw AND the disc/belt sander to you as standard, mandatory work-
shop equipment.  (Next, I'm gonna' try the little Dremel table saw.)

Adios amigo,	Al

I use my Dremel saw in much the same way as Al, and couldn't get
along without it.   It indeed takes most of the sting out of
scratch building.  I stack saw my ribs, since most of my models
at this time are constant chord wings.  I can cut out about 1 1/2
inch of ribs with no trouble, though I also cut just outside the
line of the template and sand to shape.

The worst thing I can say about my Dremel is that it is not
straight; I have to cock the work slightly to the left to get a
straight line, and I can't see anything that would cause this in
the machine.  Since the amount of offset seems to vary with the
blade, I think there may be some sort of blade twisting problem
going on here.  Also, the reason I work outside of the stack
outline is because it is not perfectly straight vertically
either.  Its quite difficult to get perfectly vertical, since the
throat height is too small to get a reasonable square into to
line up the blade, and anyway, the blade is to thin to line up
exactly; if you tried it you would know what I mean. 

I built a small table saw and a disc sander to go along with the
Dremel.  Together they help greatly in scratch building a model.

Al, did you see the method in Higley's Master Modeling book on
carving a shaped wing?

    John,
    
    Yeah, I agree that lining the blade up vertically can be something
    of a task but I've had reasonable success using a small drafting
    triangle against the blade.  As you've said, you can never seem
    to get it absolutely perfect but I've never thought of that as an
    absolute rerequisite for a simple jig-saw...close is more than good
    enough for my purpose as minor blade misalignment means nothing
    on 1/16 up to 3/16" or so thicknesses and for larger sizes, I simply
    cut oversize and sand to shape [as you do], which I would do in
    any event as this allows me to precisely control the final shape
    I'm attempting to attain.
    
    As to the "shaped wing,"  I've never heard the term and can't admit
    to even knowing what it is...care to enlighten me/us??
    
    Adios,	Al

Actually, Al, I was hoping you'd do the enlightnening!  I've
re-read the method in Higley's book over and over again and still
don't completely understand what he's talking about.  What he
does is cut the ribs to rough shape, then (and this is the part I
don't understand) sandwich the ribs into a block with spacers in
between.  He explains how the spacers are proportioned to get the
right taper on the wing.  After that he just carves the wing to
its proper shape, sort of a miniaturized version of the wing.
Then he breaks the block apart and Voila! there's the ribs.  Next
time you visit your local model junkie, you might check into his
book to get the idea????

    I've read harry's book to and I think you have one or two things
    wrong.
    
    	To start we are talking tapered wings. He makes up two ply templates.
    One for the root and the other for the tip. He then determines how
    many ribs he will use and then sandwiches all but one of the balsa ribs
    between the two templates. The last balsa rib is then installed on the
    outside of the ply tip template. The reason for this is that you are
    making a series of balsa templates not ribs using harry's method. The
    outer most balsa template is placed outside the ply template because
    when you carve and sand the balsa templates they're edges become
    beveled.  After you've completed the sanding of the balsa templates
    you will be using these templates to trace the shape of the ribs
    onto the balsa rib stock. You will lay the template down on the
    balsoa rib stock so that the larger of the templates sides lays
    on the surface.  I don't have the book here but if I remember correctly
    before harry disassembles his "mini" wing of templates he marks
    the location and size of the spars on the mini wing. From here once
    the mini wing is broken into it's individual rib templates he the
    draws the cut outs for the wing spare and removes this material
    from each rib template. Now the templates are finally completed
    and can be used to trace the rib airfoil onto the balsa rib stock. 
                             
    
    						Tom

< Note 400.2 by GHANI::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >
...
>I don't use the power takeoff features of the Moto-Shop much as my Dremel-tool 
>does all this type work for me and I already have a small grinder so the grind-
>ing wheel is superfluous also.  But, I find the wire-wheel verrrry handy and 
>leave this attached to the power takeoff virtually all the time.
...

Al - tell me more about the wire-wheel.
Is this attached to the power take off or it it attached to the long
flexible drive with the collar on the end.

If it is attached to the power take off then one didn't come
with mine and I don't see any listed in the Dremel catalog.
I suppose you could find any generic wire-wheel and get it on somehow.

What is it that you use it for all the time?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    It's altogether possible that things've changed since I bought my
    Dremel Moto-Shop (jig-saw) but mine came with both a grinding wheel
    and a wire wheel (both about 3-3 1/2" dia.) in addition to the flex-
    shaft attachment which accepts moto-tool bits, cutters, etc.  I
    have the option to attach any of the three to the power takeoff
    on the side of the saw body which is directly connected to the saw
    motor.  It's been so long since I've taken the wire wheel off I,
    frankly, don't remember exactly how the wheel options attach but
    I'd bet they're secured by a single screw into the takeoff shaft.
    
    Hmmmm, now you've got me wondering; I seem to remember the wire wheel 
    coming with the Moto-Shop but it's just possible I stole it outa' an
    old electric drill set and adapted it to the power takeoff...I honestly
    can't recall for sure, now that you've brought the question up.  Oh well,
    a little 3-4" wire wheel can be bought in almost any hardware store for 
    peanuts if you want to try one.
    
    What do I use the wire wheel for?  Well, lemmesee if I can list
    a few uses:
    
    * Clean rust/corrosion from music wire prior to soldering.

    *   "     "     "        "  sheet stock  "    "     "    .

    *   "     "     "     /glue and such from screw threads.

    * Polish/clean/deburr wire landing gear axles.

    *   "     "     "     any metal part after cutting or working on with
      the moto-tool

    * This is a bigee; clean CA glue from spinning drill bit which was
      just used to open clogged CA glue bottle...I leave the bit in
      the drill and, while it's running, hold the bit in the spinning
      wire wheel - cleans out the CA like magic!
    
    These are just a few uses that come inmmediately to mind.  As you
    can see, cleaning metal parts is the central theme and there are
    a myriad other uses which just don't come to mind at the moment.
    During the course of building a model, I expect I use the wire wheel
    as frequently as I use the saw...once you have one available, you'll
    find jillions of uses.  BTW, always work "with," NEVER AGAINST the 
    wire wheel's direction of rotation...the part yer' workin' on can be
    launched to near escape velocity and be lost, not to mention the ob-
    vious safety hazard.  I always wear safety glasses whenever using this
    or any power tool.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

        I too have noticed the allignment problems with this unit. It
        takes a bit of tinkering to get (and keep) it straight. Mine also
        wants to cut off to one side (left I think) for no aparant reason. 
        
        The basic unit itself is OK, the direct attachments (danding disk,
        grinder, wire brush) acceptable, but the flexible shaft accessory
        is worthless. Pitch it and get a real Moto-Tool. 
        
        Price? I got the complete, deluxe version for $39, and that was
        list! Did I mention that my father bought it for me when I was a
        Cub Scout back in 1964? Recently Dremel has been bought out by
        Emerson, the level of plastic went up, and the quality went down,
        but what hasn't? Except for a long dead "lifetime" bearing, and
        deteriorated rubber suction feet, mine still runs almost 25 years
        later. 

    Has anyone had any experience with the larger Sears scroll saw?
    I need something to help with cutting aluminum sheet stock to make
    brackets and such, and the hacksaw/nibbler routine gets old fast,
    and gives non-optimal results besides.  The saw is around $150,
    depending on sales, but looks like it ought to do the job.  I don't
    want to go with the smaller ones, as there's too much plastic in
    them and I'm more into metalworking than balsa/plastic....
    
    Willie

>< Note 400.9 by CHGV04::KAPLOW "sixteen bit paleontologist" >
...
>        The basic unit itself is OK, the direct attachments (danding disk,
>        grinder, wire brush) acceptable, but the flexible shaft accessory
>        is worthless. Pitch it and get a real Moto-Tool. 

Hey - pitch them my way!  I use my flexible shaft all the time.  Usually I
leave the sanding drum on it.  It's the cats meow for sanding little
pieces.  Example - I had to scalp the trailing edge of some sheeting
on the Super Aeromaster fuselage.  Just took seconds with the flex shaft
sanding drum.  But I admit I also have and use a standard Moto-Tool.

P.S.  Did everybody notice that Dremel is now advertising a wireless Moto-Tool.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Has anybody used one of the Robart right-angle Moto-tool attachments?
Are they well built, worth the cost, etc??

G. Schrader

        As I mentioned, mine is old, and the shaft went in the trash long
        ago. The basic problems were much lower RPM than the moto-tool,
        and severe loss of speed and power due to binding whenever the
        shaft was bent much. Add that to the shaft coupler slowly working
        loose from the power drive housing due to vibration and twisting,
        and soon the end gets chewed up pretty bad.
        
        We already had a moto-tool like unit, so we used that instead. 

    Back to scroll saws:
    
    Does anyone have any experience with the German Hegner equipment?
    I've been toying with buying a saw but don't know if the Hegners
    are worth the extra money compared to the Dremel.  By the way, in
    Australia the Dremel is about US$200, and the Hegners start at about
    twice that, so its not a trivial decision!
    
    Thanks
    Tony
     

I don't think the Henger is sold in this country; maybe Hobby
Lobby would have it...?

Been thinking about this topic lately, meaning to post something.
I complained earlier about the difficulty of cutting a straight
line with my Dremel/Sears saw.

A few weeks ago I ran out of the thin blades in the middle of a
project and was left with only the sample "metal cutting" blade
from the original kit.  This blade is about 3/16 wide, as opposed
to the thin blade which is about 1/8.   I tried it out and was
very surprised by its ability to cut cleanly and in a straight
line. 

I think the crooked cutting problem is caused by the stress on
the thin scroll saw blade by the springs in the saw.  It must
cause the blade to twist somehow.  Anyway, I recommend the
thicker blade as a means of getting straight lines. Of course,
this blade does not cut corners like the thin one does, but I
usually use the saw on plywood with few intricate cuts. 

Its good enough that I've pretty much retired by home-brew
circular saw, and am now dreaming up ways to put a fence on the
jig-saw!

RE:< Note 400.15 by CLOSUS::TAVARES "John -- Stay low, keep moving" >

>   and am now dreaming up ways to put a fence on the jig-saw!

    I bought a neat gadget that makes cutting straight lines easier (but
    not great since I'm still using the small blade - thanks for the
    information on the large blade).  

    It is a piece of plexiglass that gets bolted on top of the normal
    scroll saw table and has 2 slots milled in it running from the front
    to the back.  It comes with a little wooden miter gauge (looks like
    a T-square that has an adjustable angle) that fits in the slots. 
    There is also another slot milled across the front of the plexiglass
    for the wooden fence.

    The company also makes a similar device for the disk sander on the
    side.  (I bought one of these too and like it very much.)

    I don't remember the name of the company that makes it, but I think
    Tower carries it.  (I bought mine direct from the manufacturer at
    the WRAM show.)  Let me know if you want any further details and
    I'll try to get them for you.

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

    Oops - forgot to mention they also make a replacement machined
    aluminum disk for the sander.  It's much easier to sand a straight
    edge using the metal disk instead of the floppy rubber one.

                                    - Dan Miner

    John,
    
    I simply use a C-clamp (or two) to clamp a strip of 1 x 2 hardwood
    to the table of my Dremel jig-saw for use as a fence.  I even use
    it with the table tilted 45-degrees and cut my own triangle stock.
    (Learned this trick one Sunday evening when I desperately needed
    some tri-stock to keep going and [of course] all the hobby shops
    were closed.)                               
    
    Tony,
    
    I'll readily admit that the Dremel saw is not the most precisely
    built unit on the market.  However, I find it _more_ than adequate
    for any/all modeling applications and do not hesitate to recommend
    it.  Unless you plan to use the saw for other, more demanding
    applications than modeling, I think it'd be a waste of money to
    spend double (or more) the price of a Dremel.  I have a shop full
    of Dremel power-tools and find them all to be well designed and
    built for the purpose of modeling...I still have my original moto-tool
    (30+ years old) and it still runs like a champ!  Afraid I have no
    knowledge of the Henger unit so I can't draw a comparison...sorry.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Well, I finally broke down (they had a sale) and bought the Sears
    16 inch scroll saw.  After the usual delays (maybe it's me!) and
    runarounds I got it home and fired it up and it's just about perfect!
    Probably a little overkill for balsa and other modelling tasks,
    but it's great for cutting aluminum stock up for Tycho brackets
    and other stuff (plow blade is going to be the first major project,
    then I'll know more).  The only things I'm going to do different
    are:
    
    1)	The table has a rather large slot in it for the blade to pass
    thru, I'm going to put a plate over the table with a smaller hole
    in it.
    
    2)	Since the pieces I work with tend to be kind of small, I'm going
    to have to find some heavy gloves, as binding blades are a bit scary.
    
    3)	The clear plastic 'blade safety guard' is (in this application)
    pretty useless, so it's not getting installed.
    
    I really wish I had gotten this before I did all that other work
    on Tycho, it would have saved me a lot of hours....
    
    Willie

    Re: back a few, Dan (Miner),
    
    By all means supply whatever information you can on the attachments
    for the Dremel jig-saw...they sound like just the ticket.  Frankly,
    I'm surprised that Dremel hasn't come out with attachments themselves.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

RE: .16 & .17  Attachments for Dremel Scroll Saw

    As requested, here is the name, address, and phone # of the company
    that makes the attachments for the Dremel Scroll Saw:

            Calico Miniatures
            8825 Juniper Court
            Orland Park, Illinois  60462
                (312)349-8726

    I have 3 of their products (and like them very much):

      - table attachment discussed in .16 to turn the scroll saw into
        a "sort-of" table saw - fairly good for straight cuts

      - a neat wood & plexiglass stand with miter square for the sanding
        disk on the side - makes the disk more useful for precision sanding

      - a machined aluminum disk to replace the useless floppy rubber
        one that comes with the Dremel.

    If you own the Dremel disk/belt sander, you won't have any use for
    the sanding attachments.  However, if you don't have the disk/belt
    sander, I feel this is a cost effective alternative.

    I paid $50.00 for the whole works on a special deal at the WRAM
    show.  I think the list prices are (APPROXIMATELY):
        Table attachment $35.00
        Sanding table    $20.00
        Sanding disk     $ 8.00

    I think Tower Hobbies carries at least the table attachment (but
    forgot to look in their catalogue this weekend).

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

>      - a neat wood & plexiglass stand with miter square for the sanding
>        disk on the side - makes the disk more useful for precision sanding
>
>      - a machined aluminum disk to replace the useless floppy rubber
>        one that comes with the Dremel.

This sounds great.  I use the flexible shaft attachment instead of the
disk sander a lot.  Would I still be able to swap back and forth between
sander and flex shaft as easy as before?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

> Would I still be able to swap back and forth between
> sander and flex shaft as easy as before?

Yup.  The little wooden table just clips under the base of the  Dremel
unit.  If I can remember to bring it, I'll bring it to the  Fun-Fly next
week to show you.  (You are going to be there aren't you Kay?)

                                - Dan Miner