Conference vmszoo::rc

    Jeff,
    
    Boy! this would've been a great "first topic" for the scale column
    (note) I'm trying to get started...see note 271.  Orrrrr, maybe
    not, WW-I is not my strongest suit...but I'll give it a whirl.
    
    Lessee', correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the -11 the slab-sided
    Nieuport, as opposed to the later round-fuselaged versions?...had
    a drum-fed Lewis machine gun mounted above the top wing??  If so,
    I may be able to help.  I'm almost sure I have one of the old, orig-
    inal Profile Publications on the -11.  I can almost see the color
    4-view drawing of one with an indian head on the side.  This is
    a pretty good source as Profiles are back in publication...check
    out the various aviation book catalogs, specifically Zenith Aviation
    Books.  I know they are mail ordering Profiles...I remember seeing
    the selection index in their most recent catalog.
    
    Lemme' double check my documentation library at home and  1.) if
    I have the one you need and  2.) if you draw a blank obtaining what
    you want and  3.) if you want it, I might see my way clear to "LEND"
    my Profile to you.
    
    Sorry, can't help you with the Italian...I have enough trouble with
    English at times.  If it's no big thing for you, how about considering
    putting any subsequent questions/comments/etc. in note 271?  I'd
    like to see us start compiling a notebook crammed with scale stuff.
    
    Hope this helps......adios,	Al

    Al,
    
    I saw note 271 before I entered my note.  However, I did not want
    to clutter up the general discussion of scale with a specific
    request.  If the moderator feels that this should move to the other
    note (actually, the note just before mine, I will be happy to...
    
    I get a couple of those catalogs and always keep an eye out for
    WWI stuff, the -11 in particular.  I have not yet seen it though...
    I will have to check it again tonight...
    
    Yes, the -11 is flat sided with a lewis on the top wing.  The indian
    was the marking for the Escadrille American, the group of americans
    that fought for France before the U.S. entered the war..  If I can
    find solid enough information about a particular plane, then I will
    likely go with that.  However, EVERYONE with a Nieuport at Rhinebeck
    has the Esc. American paint scheme..  I would like something different.
    
    I would rather have my own copy of Profiles if I can find one. 
    Thanks for the offer.  If anyone else knows where I can find one,
    please let me know and I will order it immediately...
    
    Any italian readers out there??
    
    Thanks,
    jeff
    

    Jeff, 
    
    Documentation, the search for - care & feeding of same, is such
    a BIG, BIIIIG part of scale (cometition) that the subject couldn't
    be more apropos to the topic of geting started in scale.  If it's
    possible to move this discussion to 271, I think it would be right
    at home there...no big deal if there's a high pain-level to do so.
    
    I checked my doc. library last evening and, unfortunately, I don't
    have the desired Profile after all.  I'm certain I DID have it at
    one time...must've "loaned" it to someone and never got it back.
    Check the Profile subject index in the latest Zenith Aviation Books
    catalog and see if you can find the one on the -11.  The entire
    series is not yet available so there's a chance the one you want
    hasn't been released yet.
    
    Adios,	Al
    

    Can someone get me the name/address/phone # of the publisher of
    profiles??  If I can't find it in the catalog, I will call the
    publisher and see what I can do...
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    

    So, no one out there reads Italian, huh??
    
    Oh well...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

Hang in there, Jeff.  If I could find an expert on Polish
aircraft, you should be able to find one for Italian aircraft.
Try writing Don Berliner, c/o Model Aviation magazine; that
fellow is one heck of a resource. 

    Well, I spent a few hours Saturday talking with a guy that I knew
    had built a Nieuport-11..  What I didn't know was that he has built
    about 5 Nieuports, 11s and 17s...
    
    He is a very talented scale builder and will be going to the Scale
    Nationals (or whatever competition it is) in Neveda in October...
    
    Anyways, we solved a few problems...
    
    1) We talked about the italian planes and such.  I decided (with
    his encouragement) to forget about trying to do a plane with relatively
    few marking documents..  I am going to build the plane after Joe
    Pfieffer's N-11 that is in California.
    
    2) I am not going to build it as a N-17.  Although there are not
    a lot of differences, there are enough.  And rather than spend my
    time making modifications that I am not comfortable with, I will
    spend that same time doing more detailing.
    
    3) He has the Profile book.  However, it is about the N-17 not the
    N-11.  
    
    4) He also gave me the source of the photo paks of Pfieffer's N-11.
    I will order these today...
    
    We talked at great length about using one 3 view for the 3 view
    documentation then using a different picture(s) to show the color
    markings.  He made an interesting point...
    
    Any contradicting documentation will only add confusion and make
    your project more suspect when being judged.  Thus, the 3 view markings
    should match your photos and your plane if at all possible.
    
    Well, I will keep you all posted..  Thanks for your help!!
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Well, I got all sorts of stuff recently...
    
    I got the pictures from Scale Model Research.  A pretty good set
    with many closeups.  I also got mail from WW-1 Aero magazine.  
    Apparently there were 2 N-11s built in CA at the same time.  The
    sister ship to the one I was going to model is at the San Diego
    Aero Space Museum and built by Walt Addems.
    
    Is there anyone out in CA that can tell me what his paint scheme
    was???
    
    They also pointed me to a list of items that they have.  Now I have
    to send for the list, look at it, then send for the pieces I want.
    It would have been nice if they could have sent me the materials
    list first..  Oh well..
    
    I also got a letter back from "Over the Front", the replacement
    to the US "Cross and Cockade".  He gave me 2 references that I now
    need to find.  If anyone has any info about them, please let me
    know...
    
    1) An issue of "Air Classics" which featured Joe Pfeiffer's N-11.
    I sent back asking for vol/issue number...
    
    2) A Volume 2 of "Cross and Cockade Journal" (I don't know if it
    was British or US) that was all about the Lafayette Escadrille.
    
    This guy, Jim Kerr, GAVE me a copy of a book all about the Escadrille.
    That was really nice of him!
    
    Still no info about the FS color schemes.  Hopefully the NASM will
    have something since this is a US built replica...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    	Be aware that the subject that you model (the exact subject).
    Must have flown at least once. I don't know about the subject
    in the Ca. museum but if you use it for documentation, ie
    markings,color etc. and it didn't ever fly then your scale subject
    will not meet the AMA rules.
    
    						Tom

    That's an interesting point...  Thanks Tom.  I believe that one
    I am modeling after DID fly, although I would like to see that 
    article in "Air Classics" to find out for sure...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Jeff `n Tom,
    
    Interesting point you've brought up about the prototype aircraft
    having to have flown, at least once.  I do believe we're talking
    about a very "fine" catch-22 here.
    
    I think the intention is to eliminate models of aircraft that never
    flew in ANY form, like many of the early pre-Wright Bros. attempts
    and some exotic experimental types, even if they COULD be made to
    fly in model form.  I believe you'd be OK modeling a non-flying 
    replica of an aircraft which was well known to have flown (like the 
    Nieuport), provided both the replica and the model carried the au-
    thentic paint-scheme and markings of one that DID fly....that is,
    it'd be acceptable to use documentation from a non-flying replica
    of a S.P.A.D. done up in Eddie Rickenbacker's markings.  BUT, if
    the replica was just done up in some generic scheme, representative
    of general markings but not specific to ANY specific prototype which
    actually flew, you couldn't use it.  At least, that's "my"
    interpretation of the rule.
    
    Adios,	Al

    I got my best Christmas present Thursday afternoon from the original
    manufaturer of the Italian built Nieuport-11!!
    
    As some of you know, I have been having a hard time confirming the 
    colors that I should use for the Nieuport.  There are no color 
    pictures of a replica nor the real thing.  Through the MEIS::FLYING
    notes conference, I had conversed with a guy in Italy that got me
    some B&W photos and a decent 3-view, but still didn't confirm the
    colors that were used.  I then wrote to them again and received their
    reply on Thursday!
    
    Here is what I got...
    
    - Cover letter - perhaps the most useful piece of the package.  
      The letter was written by the author of the booklet that originally
      got me interested in doing the Macchi variation!  In the letter, he
      states:
    
    	"I can confirm that the Italian Nieuports were painted in a light
    	yellow colour, due to the particular type of clear dope applied on 
    	the fabric and to the natural colour of the fabric itself.  I
    	noticed the colour of other machines  of the period preserved in 
    	France is lighter, while in U.K. is darker, but I do not know why.
    
    	"Usually Italian NI 11 were not camouflaged and did very seldom 
    	bear personal or squadron badges or isignas.  As far as colours are
    	concerend, I am familiar with FS colours, but I do not know exactly
    	which is the best.  Personally I believe that it is not possbile to 
    	state that a particular FS number is the *only* correct colour. 
    	Sun, rain, time, dirt, etc will always change the shades.
    
    	"Personally I thinkg that standard Humbrol enamals can provide a
    	good reference."
    
    *** Does anyone know anything about "Humbrol Enamals"??
    
       The letter goes on and states that the official records were "lost
       during WW II in an (american) bombing raid."  touche'
    
    - A series of color plates from his book.  These will be readily used 
      in my documentation book.
    
    - A copy of the 3-view that I had already received, PLUS a detailed 
      side view of the fuse and detailed rudder and stab drawings.
    
    - He also sent copies of 3-views of a number of seaplanes that they
      built between 1915 and the '20s.  
    
    - A reprint of the original catalogue of 1919.
    
    - A copy of a book that gives the history of the company and what it is
      involved in today.
    
    All of this stuff was "free"!!  Rather than asking for money, they have
    asked that I try to locate a book for them..  "Italian Civil and
    Military Aircraft 1930-1945" by J Thompson.
    
    Now I can give a judge a letter on the original manufacturers sationary
    that says that the colors were not defined.  I will then try to match
    the colors to the color drawings that I have in my book.
    
    Yea!!
    jeff
    

Hi, I've started monitoring this conference, I used to do some chopper stuff
and cars - now the two kids, house, cars, yard (5 acres), and other things
have reduced my disposable time and money....but I shall return....

Humbrol enamels are a series of paints similar to the Testor line.  The
line used to be very popular with the plastic precision scale crew due to
the consistant color and texture, the variety of colors, and the coverage
which the paint gives (I still have about 20 cans and use them for some WWII
models with my son).  I haven't seen a Humbrol display in years.  The shop 
which I used for the paints no longer exists.  I'm out in Rochester (NY) so
any references to stores are probably useless anyway.

Good luck, your best bet is probably to do an informed SWAG.  After all,
does anybody really know what the *original* colors were?  Age changes all
colors and in ref to the variations in color from Italy to England, it's all
in the dope and fabric.

I'm sure you will create an acurate model and pay tribute to a beautiful
vintage aircraft.  Have fun!!

Trying to help -
Steve
(DTN) 252-7179

    Jeff,
    
    Glad to hear you have yer' color documentation problem solved.  As
    stated in .13, Humbrol is a line of enamels much like the Testors line
    used mostly on plastic models.  Humbrol, as I recall, found particular
    favor with the model railroading fraternity so the first place(s) I'd
    try would be shops catering to the train folks.  I know a brand called
    Poly-S has bevome very popular with the railroaders and this may be why
    Humbrol is harder to find these days.  I'm almost certain that Humbrol
    originates in the UK so, if all else fails, one of our UK noters may be
    able to lend an assist.
    
    BTW, as I'm sure you've already surmised, these paints are NOT fuel
    proof and REQUIRE a clear coat (I recommend K&B clear epoxy) to protect
    them.  This is a very common finishing method in the UK according to
    what I read in the British model mags.
    
    On the book, you might invest a call to some of the larger aviation
    book houses like Zenith and put them on the trail.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    If all else fails, you might find the book you want through the
    Rutgers Book Center.  Their primary focus is firearms and military
    stuff, but they do list some books on aviation.  They claim over 7000
    in print titles as well as 5000 out of print and used books.

    	Rutgers Book Center
    	127 Raritan Ave.
    	Highland Park, New Jersey 08904
    	201-545-4344    (VISA & MASTERCARD)
    
    Good Luck, hope this helps.

    Well, it has been some time since I wrote to this note...
    
    Since I am doing quite a bit of work on it lately, let me bring you all
    up to speed and then I can go from there..
    
    My wife gave me the Proctor Nieuport-11 kit for Christmas in 1985.  
    
    I then started a long search for the specific subject that I would
    model.  Following along with Al Casey in note 271, I went back and
    forth on the particular plane I would model.  After getting an Italian
    translation of a book, I wrote to AerMacchi in Italy.  They had built
    the Nieuport-11 under license during WWI.
    
    Well, what I got back was great, and it just keeps getting better.  I
    got a number of 3-views and actual factory drawings, along with a
    letter from the author of the book.  We have continued to correspond
    since then and I now have virtually a complete set of factory drawings.
    In addition, he gave me various photos and plates that will enhance my
    scale documentation greatly.
    
    In the mean time, I occasionally worked here and there on the plane. 
    Often times I would get overwhelmed and put it aside and work on other
    projects.
    
    Over the years I had completed the rudder, stab and elevator.   I had
    also built the ribs (each rib is 1/32 ply which is stained.  Then a cap
    strip is added.  With 2 wings worth of ribs, this took awhile..) and 
    had glued them to the spars.  All pieces were stored carefully on a
    nice flat surface out of harms way.
    
    Well, it had been well over a year since I had last worked on it.  A
    couple of weeks ago I got motivated and started up again.  I have
    basically finished the upper wing (sans ailerons) by adding leading and
    trailing edges, wingtips (made from bamboo..  Neat stuff..  to make
    shapes, you heat it over a candle and it becomes pliable.  After it
    cools, it is very solid!), strut and cable attach points.  Everything
    needs to be sanded into the contour of the wing.  
    
    Yesterday I joined the wing halves and I am now adding more of the 
    between wing pieces.  I still have to sand all of these to contour.
    
    The bottom wing should be a piece of cake after this!!
    
    -------------------------
    
    For anyone considering building a Proctor kit..  Be careful...  They
    are overwhelming kits as they provide every little piece.  However,
    the instructions are written in paragraph form, using part numbers to
    reference pieces.  As a result, it is very hard to follow along the 
    instructions.  I have found that I use them more as a reference when I 
    don't understand the plans.  
    
    -------------------------
    
    Perhaps since this, the ever lasting C-45 twin and an unstarted
    Predator are the only items on my work bence this winter, I will get a 
    chance to fly this in the next year..  (yea, sure you will jeff..  :-)
    
    Cheers,
    jeff