Conference vmszoo::rc

    I think that for the money, one of the best buys in an RC Heli radio
    on the markey today is the Circuis Hobbies Apallo.  However, for
    the slight difference, you might want to consider the Century VII.
    In all of the constests that I have been to, it seems to be the
    most popular heli radio at the meets. 
    
    My local hobby store dealer has told me that he has received some
    info that Futaba is going to produce a Conquest Heli version of
    that series radio.  He wasn't sure of the price or the availability
    date but you may want to check on that radio.  I think that may
    even be somewhat less money, but don't know the features, etc.
    Ken
    
    

    Here's a second vote for the Century VII. The way I looked at it
    when I bought mine was that it was better to spend a little extra
    for the VII than to get something cheaper. Its a false economy to
    buy a cheaper radio and then replace it a year or two later with
    something that matches your now "improved" abilities.
    
    Dan Eaton 

    Can anyone help me understand how to set up my helicopter
    transmitter?      
    
    It is a JR Apex 7 - apparently it is the latest model and is
    a bit different from the ones used by guys I know.
    
    The problem is that this is the first heli radio I have had
    having just started with choppers ( RC aircraft at all, come to
    that ) and the instructions that came with it are useless!
    
    It seems they were written in sansrcit by some one who either
    knew nothing about the subject or else knew a lot but is not
    letting on.
    
    I have got more useful info from toilet walls than this 6 page
    apology for an owners manual!
    
    Yours
    
    'Confused of Reading ( UK )'
    
    AKA Brian Warwick
    
                                      
    

    Dear Confused,
    
    First thanx for the VaxMail highlighting the events of your first
    outing with the new chopper and congratulations on your success.
    May I suggest you copy that great account somewhere into NOTES so
    all RC NOTERS can enjoy and share your experience.
    
    Next, I don't profess to know much (anything) about helicopter but
    I would suggest you don't crum JR too badly as the situation you've
    encountered with the instruction manual is almost universal to ALL
    radio systems....particularly those of foreign origin, Japanese,
    Korean, etc.  They simply do a lousy job of translating technical
    information into English!  Yer' BEST bet here is to find someone
    experienced with helicopter radio installations (preferrably on
    your specific or similar radio) and have this person help explain
    the intricacies, features, etc. of your set-up.  Just persevere
    and you'll get 'er worked out.  Maybe some of the heli-oriented
    NOTERS can offer some more useful advise.
    
    Adios....and congratulations again,			Al

    Ok Al - you suggested I put this in Notes and here it is!
    
    I hope it is of interest to others or at least gives someone a laugh!
    
    Brian
    
    
    
    
    From:	RDGCSS::WARWICK      "I might as well be parking cars ..." 10-AUG-1987 10:20
To:	GHANI::CASEYA,KERNEL::DAY,WARWICK     
Subj:	Latest DEC chopper pilot survives first flight

Hi Bob and Al,

Just popped into the office for a couple of hours before going off
on an SSAD training course and thought you might be interested in
my news.

I DID IT! Well just about.

I went to Box Hill on Sunday - the Box Hill Club held their 1987 
fly-in ( I even got a souvenir tee shirt when signing on at the 
transmitter pound! ).

I was amazed by the number of personalities there - John Wallington,
Len Mount, Jim Morley, Vago whatsit, etc, etc, etc.

There must have been 50 pilots, 100 choppers and another 100
spectators.

The weather stayed mainly dry and a good time was had by all with some
excellent flying - Tim Angel ( owner of Thames Valley Models, member
of committee for Reading and District Model Aircraft Club and my sponsor
for the day ) came third in the autorotation contest beating John 
Wallington and Len Mount!
              
Tim helped me check out my Cyclone - just a tweak here and there on
the collective and tail rotor and the OS50 started first time ( out of
the box! ).

Although the clutch was fast at first and the throttle/pitch needed a
tweak Tim leapt it into the air and it hovered - this with no gyro at
this time.

Tim out a tank full of fuel thru' it and I retired to make a few 
adjustments.

Later in the day I claimed my transmitter and went off to a quiet 
corner of the field.                               

This was it!

One of Tim's friends from RADMAC stood with me and hurled advice at me
faster than I could understand what the chopper was doing let alone
understand what he was telling me to do and I had it off the ground.

The next 20 minutes saw Mick having brown socks about every 30 seconds.

How I do not drive it into the ground at absurd angles he and I will
never know!

Oh, by the way, I did not have any garden canes or other aids on the     
chopper - the store was closed when I went by first thing in the morning.
                                                  
I could not truthfully say that I hovered the Cyclone but did manage
a number of short hops around the field - at one time I fed in too much
collective when I thought I was beginning to guess what it was going to
do when it defied gravity and clawed into the air - before you could
say SHIT it was at shoulder height and moving sideways towards me and
to Mick's consternation, him!

Twiddle, twiddle later and ease off the left hand a bit and it was moving
away but heading for the ground a mite fast. 

And so it went on.

I did not break anything - it always landed on it's skids and I had learnt
a great deal of respect for this bucking bronco - I had also learnt that
I was scared SH**TLESS.

I can't wait to get out again! and scare myself some more.

I have joined the Reading club - RADMAC ( I may still join you at 
Basingstoke, Bob ) and if the weather is OK will be out on Wednesday nite
trying to look cool and not terrorise the other pilots.

WHAT HAVE I LET MYSELF IN FOR? I MUST BE MAD!

By for now

Brian

	Hya Brian....


                        The instructions that come with the APEX set
	are about as much use as a fart in a thunderstorm.... 
	
	The goodies to set up on the APEX, and these are common to
     	other comparibly priced Heli-Sets are:-
	
	1. Pitch curve, upper and lower. Pitch trim.
	2. ATS or tail rotor compensation.
	3. Idle up.
	4. Throttle hold.
	5. Cyclic dual rates.
	
			                            

	Firstly you need to set the beast up to hover at half stick, this
	set doesn't have a 'Hover Throttle'. This is important 'cos the
	upper and lower pitch curves and idle up phase in/out at half stick.
	

	1. The pitch curves are set up to match the pitch change to engine
	throttling characteristics... The idea is that as the
	throttle/collective is opened the engine revs stay constant-ish,
	the extra power turning higher pitch rotors... To little pitch change
	and the engine will over rev, to much and the revs will die.
	Changes in motor rpm, hence torque, need to be compensated for 
	with more/less tail rotor. 

	Believe it or not the upper pitch curve works above half
	stick, and the lower below.. The upper curve setting positive
	pitch, and the lower negative (for when these things are upside
	down )

        I set my lower pitch curve to give 0 pitch at low throttle. I
	find my chopper heads for the ground quite quick enough, without
	the help of -ve pitch sucking it down even faster.
           
        Simple eh?...
	
                                                          
	The others you are better off leaving switched out. It's just 
	turned pub time, so I'll explain the others when I've 
	wetted my whistle a bit.....


	bob


		

        	That's better... here we go. if you really must
	switch these other goodies in. This is what you do.

	2. ATS, automatic tail compensation. Not sure how that
	abbreviates to ATS, but there you go.

	ATS applies tail rotor pitch automatically as you move
	the throttle/collective (t/c) stick. It adjusts the pitch
	to compensate for, amount of t/c input and rate of t/c
	input. As you apply t/c stick the transmitter mixes in some
	tail pitch. Notice this is applied on stick movement NOT
	actual tail movement..

	The problem with AST is that is needs to be set up with
	the Gyro switched out, but until you can actually fly you
	need the Gyro switched in.. A small problem... When you've
	sorted that out you can think about setting the ATS up.

	Firstly you must decide wether you need left or right 
	compensation. This is easy to figure out. Select l or r
	and wind the compensation pots to max. get the thing
	hovering and open the throttle. If it spins round and 
	crashes into the ground you guessed wrong.... Give lots
	of money to the local model shop, repair it and take off 
	with the switch the other way. Seriously, l or r depends on
	direction of rotation of main rota, and thrust of tail rota.
	set it so that as you open the throttle the tail rota thrust
	opposes the torque reaction.

	My set has 2 ATS pots. One that mixes in more tail pitch, 
	proportional to the amount of t/c stick movement. The other
	mixes in a 'kick' of tail pitch proportional to the RATE
	of stick movement.

	To set it up, get the thing into a hover, open the t/c stick.
	twiddle the ATS pots until the tail stays steady and it just
	climbs straight up. Now you can switch the Gyro back on.
	 
			
	On a Heli-set two seperate functions, ie throttle and collective
	are driven from the same stick.. This sometimes causes problems.
	idle-up and Throttle hold solve these problems.



	To be continued in another reply, 'cos I doubt if this link
	will stay up long enough

	3. Idle up, is mainly used when you are int aerobatics and
	other posey things.
	
	 Imagine that you are John Wallington or Vago Whatsit... and 
	you want pull a loop. You give your chopper lots of forward
	speed, ie lots of throttle and collective. You apply some
	back cyclic to do the loop. Half way round the loop you still
	have lots of throttle and lots of pitch, in other words lots
	of lift.. Since the chopper is upside down, lots of lift makes
	you go towards the ground.. This doesn't make for very round 
	loops. or very clean trousers...

	 Idle up 'disconnects' the throttle from collective. So you can
	use the t/c stick to vary the pitch, but keep the throttle open,
	ie keep the motor torque constant, so keep the tail straight.

	The actual amount of throttle is set with the Idle up pot, up
	to the equivalent of half stick.  

	You may as well leave it switched out for the next year or two.
	If you really want to you can set it to keep the engine revs up
	during decents. however this does mean that when your precious
	helicopter is thrashing around on the ground, trying to dig
	through to Oz and you pull the t/c stick back, it'll keep 
	digging until you manage to switch the idle up off.... I suggest
	that you set the idle up to min so that should it get switched in
	it doesn't keep the revs up......

	The APEX also has idle up rate... In this case, if you haven't got
	idle up selected the you must be hovering. If you're hovering you
	want the machine docile.

	The posh heli sets have 2 idle ups (?) to cater for different
	flying requirements.....



	5. Throttle Hold is not dissimilar to idle up. Only it is used to
	hold the throttle at a good idle, allowing you to vary the
	collective, say during an auto-rotation.... 

	I find it handy to switch in when I want to put the Tx down while
	the engine is running. That way should the TX fall over (and I've
	seen this happen) the chopper won't leap into the air.... 


	6. Cyclic rates are the same as aileron/elevator rate on a 
	fixed wing set.. When switched in the amont of servo movement
	is set by the rate pot between 20-100% of the servo movement
	without the rates off... Ie less servo mevement for a given 
	amount of stick movement... The effect is to dampen the machines
	response.
	
	I leave mine at 100% so that it doesn't matter if they get 
	switched on accidently.. 	
	
        


	Somes heli-sets have an invert switch.. This is for use when the
	thing is intentionally upside down.. When it's in this state, several
	functions work backwards.. The Invert switch sets your transmitter
	inverts several channels so that flying upside down requires the
	same stick movements as if it were the right way up.. eg opening
	the t/c stick gives more negative pitch, and forw/back cyclic are
	reversed....I'ts most entertaining when this switch is thrown
	accidently....           


	Cheers

	bob

    Bob,
    
    Re: your last reply(ies) regarding heli-radio set-up....HUHHHHHHHH??
    
    If I ever had any doubts, you've just convinced me to stick with
    the fixed-wings and leave the squirrely-birds to the more intrepid,
    FOREVER!
    
    Adios,	Al

Thanks Bob Day.

I don't have a Heli but I've read several accounts of radio adjustments
including one that just came with my new JR Single stick (book covered
both Pattern and Heli versions).

Up till now I've never read anything that made any real since to me.
Now I know why you guys want special radios.

Thanks again for doing such a good job of explaining the unexplainable.

P.S.  For the record the directions with my JR are slightly better than
      with my Futaba.  But - both are skimpy and assume a lot.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Thanks a bunch Bob - I found your explanations very helpful.
    
    I think that I have it pretty well set up now ( must admit I had
    some help from a couple of guys in the Reading club ) as I have
    been out for a second time and am managing to hop around.
    
    In fact, last night I even managed an almost perfect take-off and
    long smooth 20 feet flight at 3-4 feet high with gentle landing.
                                                
    I'm not so scared of it now - well not quite so scared! - great
    enit!
    
    Thanks again
    
    Brian
    
    

		G'day

		The facilities offered by a heli-set aren't
	actually that complicated. I dare say a decent fixed
	wing set is just as bad, what with mixing this and that,
	auto rudder, up/down adjustment, end point adjustment etc
	The difference is, with a helicopter you must have these
	goodies to do anything other than hover.. 	

		The really tricky bit is setting them up correctly. I 
	guess this is where experience counts...
		
		ATS is an awkward one. If you alter any other function,
	eg pitch trim or giro gain then the ATS will need to be altered to
	compensate.. Similarly if you set while it was windy, it will
	need resettting to fly in different conditions. ATS virtually
	needs to be set on a flight by flight basis... lot of
	aggrevation that...... It's what your left thumb's for.
	                 
		A function that you find on better Heli-sets is a 
	thing called Hovering Throttle....

		With the APEX set it assumes that the machine is
	set up to hover at half stick. Functions like pitch curves
	and idle up phase in/out at half stick... If your chopper
	hovers at 3/4 stick, then you get problems....

		Hovering throttle allows you to set 3/4 stick as
	the point at which pitch curves etc phase in/out....

		Another thing to look out for is the pitch trim...
	on APEX type sets the pitch trim works over the entire pitch
	range. If you move the pitch trim it screws up the pitch
	curve setups..... On better sets the pitch trim only works
	around Half stick ( or wherever hovering throttle is set). It's
	effect is phased out as the stick is moved from hover point. 
	So it has no effect on the full stick pitch. Similar to the
	way the throttle trim only functions at idle....

		The big point is get the thing trimmed out correctly
	before you attempt to play with all these goodies.. They will
	not compensate for a chopper that is badly set up... A 
	properly trimmed helicopter will virtually hover hands off.


		bob
    

    		     ??	FM 6-7CH HELICOPTER RADIO INFO ??
                              
    HELLO, 
    	I AM LOOKING FOR PEOPLES PERSONAL OPINIONS ON WHAT BRAND NAME
    RADIOS THEY WOULD RECOMEND OR STRONGLY NOT RECOMEND. I HAVE BEEN
    OUT OF THE RC SCENE FOR ABOUT 5 YEARS, AND AM HAVING A HARD TIME
    GETTING ANY QUALITY INFO FROM THE MAGAZINES. I AM CURRENTLY BUILDING
    A BARON 28 HELO, AND I AM NOW FACED WITH TRYING TO MAKE MY DECISION ON
    WHAT RADIO TO BUY. 
                   
    I AM CURRENTLY LEANING TOWORDS A FUTABA FM 7CH FGHI W/4 SERVOS FOR
    ABOUT $250.                     
    
    ANY INFO WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!
    

>    I AM CURRENTLY LEANING TOWORDS A FUTABA FM 7CH FGHI W/4 SERVOS FOR
>    ABOUT $250.                     

Well - I'll start off with what will probably be several controversial
replies.

The Futaba FGK series were good radios.
BUT - it's receiver will not meet 1991 specs.

I have seen lots of Helicopter pilots in the last few weeks
and they seem to be dominated by JR century 7 twin stick radios.

In point of fact the AMA has only recognized Airtronics receivers
as having passed independent lab tests for 1991 compatibility.

In fact ACE, JR, Airtronics, Aristocraft and Novak are the only companies
advertising 1991 receivers.  I don't think ACE and Aristocraft make
Helo transmitters and Novak doesn't make transmitters (only Futaba
compatible AM receivers).

Sooooooo - As I see it you have a big fat choice of JR or Airtronics.
JR prices have been going up a lot lately.  Based on my observations
I would lean towards Airtronics BUT...

Since everybody at the local field has JR I personally would take
advantage of that and stick with them - that way trainer cords work
and experts can help.  A visit to your local field and talking with
the active flyers will help you make a decision.

I'm sure other radios are becoming 1991 compatible and others will no
doubt add to this note.

Conclusion = get what the others have if and only if they are available
in a 1991 version.

P.S.  $250 is probably at least 50 short of any 1991 system.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    I think Kay answered the question just the way I would.  However,
    there is a couple of things I would like to add.  The Century VII
    FM set currently sells for about $350.  JR also has a Century VII
    PCM set for about $380.  I think that the extra $30 would be a 
    good investment due to better interference rejection (choppers
    can generate lots of noise).  It also has the added feature of
    a fail safe system, but I am not sure what good that is on a
    chopper, since pre-setting anything would be tough.  Also,
    these system prices are with 4 servos, so you would want to add
    the cost of one additional servo.  
    
    I know I have helped several people set up their choppers, and I
    feel much more comfortable doing this with a Century VII system,
    since I have a better idea what I am doing, and what to expect.
    
		________
	 /	  __|__  
	=========[_____\>
	/	__|___|__/  BREAK A BLADE,
			    Ken    	

    OK.  I've recently joined the ranks of Rotary Winged Flyers.

    I've got a JR Century VII.

    I bought the Heli and the Radio used.

    It all flies, and since I havn't crashed in a dozen or so 15 minute
    hovers, I can only assume that either I'm wicked good, or the Heli's set
    up reasonably correctly.

    Can someone who owns a JR Century VII give me a concise explanation of
    the various radio functions.  The instruction manual is devoid of useful
    information, and although the system seems set up OK, it really bothers
    me that I don't have a decent understanding of what it's doing.


    Randy

Hi Randy,
Why don't you contact me offline and I'll go over the radio with you,
                                                        /     \ /
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