Conference vicki::boats

    Good question - I have a 5 gallon can full that I've drained out
    of various old gas cans.  Also have a few others I'd like to
    clean out if I can figure out what to do with the stuff.
    
    The closest I've come up with so far is to pour it through a paint 
    filter, and then burn it in my car or truck, about a quart or so per
    tankful of fresh gas.  Haven't tried it yet though. Has anyone?  
    Neither of these vehicles is fuel injected, but I'll definitely 
    avoid putting it in my wife's car, which has f.i.
    
    Rick
    

    
    Annually the town i live in has a "hazardous waste day"
    where they will take old batteries, paint products, thinner
    etc. I don't know if they will take fuel.
    
    I would suggest you call either the police of fire dept,
    in your city or town and inquire.
    
    I don't recommend putting it in your vehicle regardless
    of the fuel system you have, a carburator has some very
    small jets that could get clogged.
    
    If you don't have any luck, there must be a state agency 
    that deals with this...
    
    JIm

1)  You make friends with someone who lives in Merrimack, N.H.  Then take the
    stuff to the Merrimack landfill, where they have the most organized disposal
    facilities I've ever seen in my life.  There's a 'section' for everything ...
    glass/aluminum recycleables, concrete/rocks, "clean" wood, brush & leaves,
    stumps & trees, tires, paint cans, auto batteries, metals, tanks for oil,
    gas & antifreeze and probably others I didn't notice.  Plus a general "trash"
    area.  An excellent set up.  And no, I'm not a resident of Merrimack.

2)  Wait for your town to have a hazardous waste collection (some have them once
    or twice a year).  Lots of towns have them in the spring when people decide
    it's time to clean out the basement.  The D.E.M./D.E.Q.E./D.P.W. shows up
    and will take batteries, paint cans, fuels, and other household hazardous
    chemicals.

3)  Call a local garage or your town waste disposal manager and ask them how to
    get rid of it.  If it's not too much, maybe a garage will let you dump it in
    their "waste fuel" container.  If it's a lot, they may charge you.  I suspect
    the town will charge you also, especially if you want them to come and pick
    it up.

...Roger...

    I was thinking that one disposal method would be to let the fuel
    evaporate. Then put the residue in a much smaller container for
    disposal on hazardous-waste disposal day. 
    I don't have any idea how much residue would be left after the gasoline
    evaporated. I don't think it would be much. You could probably use the
    same barrel over and over again until it was time to dump the entire
    barrel of distillate on hazardous-waste day.
    
    
    Haven't tried it yet, though.
    
    John H-C

       I would start by asking at gas stations if they have disposal
    facilities.  I've seen used oil receptacles at a few Mobil stations, is
    there a chance they have facilities for other fluids also?
    
    				B.C.

    Allowing the fuel to evaporate is as bad for the atmosphere as pouring
    the gas into a lake would be for the water.
    
    Jeff

    Wait for snow, and frozen ground (if that happens in your geography)
    and dump it by small amounts into a puddle, then light, carefully. Try
    shooting a flaming arrow at it, if you're sensitive to 2nd and 3rd
    degree burns. The malotov cocktail would also be an excellent choice
    for disposal. It could help achieve a political statement at the same
    time, thereby actually becoming useful in its disposal.
    
    I save all my old small-engine gas annually, just for getting the old
    brush-pile going in the event of the pile not wanting to light in the
    event of long rains. 
    
    Have stones, will travel!
    
    Mike
    
    PS: I've been to fire-fighting courses before. I know it's dangerous.
    If you don't think you should try burning old gas, by all means don't
    try! I also used gun-powder in my grammar school volcano project!

    
    	re: Oil disposal...
    
    		I tried the "ask-the-gas-station-very-nicely" route
    	with no success. But, where ever you purchase oil must take the
    	waste oil, so save those receipts and watch for the smile on
    	the face of the K-Mart clerk when you walk in with a dripping
    	milk jug of used oil.
    
    	Have fun!
    
    	Rick
    
    	Gee, Mike... I like the malatov cocktail idea, can it be used on a
    	S**lboat?  :-) <------- see the smiley, see the smiley!

    
    	RE: Oil Disposal
    
    	Exxon will recycle oil (Free).  I haven't actually taken any to
    them, but they've air'd several commercials stating they'll take your
    used oil.
    
    	Probably punishment for the Alaskan oil spill...
    
    Ray

re -.1

Rick,
	I once worked at a Honey Farms in Rutland and asked that very question.
I was told to refuse to take the oil.  If the customer wished to pursue it
through legal channels, that was their perogative, but the court battle over
not taking the oil was considered to be minor compared to the court battle over
illegal storage (even for a short time) and dealing with proper disposal.

Al

    Wilton, NH, also has an excellent recycling center (on Rt 101).  They
    didn't require resident stickers when I used to go there as they were
    a regional facility for Wilton, Mason, and a few other towns.  I take
    my used oil and hydraulic fluid (from my tractor) back to Chappell
    tractor.  They have a "used oil" furnace which heats their garage area.
    When I drain the old gas out of my tank in the spring, I will be trying
    Rick's idea of mixing a little at a time into the gas tank of my 
    carb equipped truck.  I'll mix in some dry gas first to pick up water.
    I thought that a chamois cloth either allows water thru but not gas
    (or maybe it was the other way around?).  Filtering the gas prior to
    putting in the truck tank will be done.  May I suggest that before you
    purchase oli you ask if they are going to accept the used oil as
    required by law.  If the answer is no, don't buy it there.
    Wayne  

    
    Al,
    
    	The department stores and auto parts places I've purchased oil
    from by the case have never had a problem taking my waste oil as
    long as I had the receipt.
    
    Rick
    
    	Hmmmmm... taking waste oil to Honey Farms, gee if I was really
    bored some Saturday, it might be fun..... :-)

    
    FWIW...Marlboro's trash containment area accepts waste oil,as well as
           old batteries, but I doubt they'd take used gasoline.
    
           It would make better sense to run it thru a sieve, then feed it
           to an old clunker lawn mower or something like that, then to use
           it in  your vehicles, IMHO.
    
           Marlboro's trash area requires a $5 yearly sticker for city
           residents...which seems reasponable to me.
    
           Marlboro also holds a hazardous waste disposal day twice yearly,
           and they're getting ready for full-time cub-side recycling, so
           they're on the right track.
    
           Good luck with the gas.
    
    Dick
    
          

    Milford NH also has an excellent recycling center, almost everything
    except regular household trash gets recycled.  They used to have a
    big drum you'd dump all your used oil into, and it would be hauled
    away by a waste oil company so they weren't too picky about what you
    put in there.
    
    Now they have you leave your oil in small containers on a wooden
    skid, and they use it to fuel a waste oil furnace in the sorting
    building.  They're pretty picky about what they take, understandably.
    No gas, antifreeze, water, etc...  A quart or so of gasoline dumped 
    into the furnace could really brighten someone's day!  8^)  I've seen 
    them sniffing the contents of each container before they move the skid 
    over to the furnace storage tank.
    
    Used oil disposal doesn't seem to be much of a problem, but gasoline
    disposal is.  One place I thought of is your local auto junkyard.
    I'm sure they're not allowed to just drain tanks onto the ground
    like they used to - they must have some kind of a storage or recycling
    process for old/bad gas.  Maybe they'd accept containers of gas?
    Probably for some kind of a fee though...
    
    Rick

Getting rid of used oil is relatively easy.  Without receipts, some gas 
stations will let you add it to their own collection (they give/sell it to 
oil recyclers), but the simplest for me was finding a small business which 
heats its premises with used oil.  All he asks is that it's relatively 
clean (not sludge) and that it's uncontaminated by things like gas, dirt
and water, etc.  With two 8" x 24" filters on the wall between tank and 
furnace, I guess he burns it with some confidence.  Cost of a winter's 
heat = $O, plus filter elements.

Getting rid of old gas, however, is a hassle.  Finding some 5+ year old 
gas (~2 gal), I called the town, which had no idea what to do other than 
warning me not to take it to the dump ("recycling center").  I called the 
state, got a series of taped messages with no useful info interspersed
with a few "I dunno's" from totally unqualified desk jockeys.  Having 
missed our neighboring town's Hazardous Waste Day by a couple weeks, I 
chose to burn it rather than store it indefinitely.

My technique, which proved entirely undramatic, was to find a metal 
container (old trash lid, planting box, etc), be sure it was relatively 
leakproof, prop it solidly on the ground in a safe open area (my gravel 
drive, wet down by sprinkler beforehand), fill the container about 1" deep
with oil absorbent sand (Sol Speedi Dri or the like; kitty litter probably
would do), then add gas to the sand up to a point *short of saturating*
the sand.  I lit it by throwing matches from 6' away, but the flare-up was
nothing to singe even the eyebrow of a nearby gnat.  It burned for well
over an hour; once it had cooled for a couple hours (this is
*important*!), I did it again. 

Ecologically, no good; much black smoke.  But what else is better these 
days, if there's no designated safe place to put it?  (My garage doesn't 
count.)  Here's one unresolved ecological problem that hits many of us 
right at home.

J.

    My local gas station will take my used 5 gal containers of used
    crankcase oil.... sometimes free sometimes for .50 per gal.   (it
    depends on his mood and whether I have gone into debt to pay him some
    massive repair bill lately).  He DOES NOT 'take' gas mixed into the
    oil.
     

    send er to Iraq,special delivery to Sadam,with these instructions:
    
    No need to unwrap
    firework displays inside
    just light er and watch er go
    fer you my buddy,special D.
    chillin to the maximum 

    Lets see - what to do with old gas.
    
    	Find the location for the filming of Total Recall II, Highlander 
    	III or Diehard III. Those folks really know what to do with
    	gasoline!!
    
    	Try Ft Devins or whatever you local military establishment might
    	be. Let's see 3 parts gas to 1 part gelling agent, add a pinch of
    	phosphorous for flavor and viloa! jungle flambe'!! 8^) 8^(
    
    Lets see - what to do with old oil.
    
    	Try your local truck stop.

    I'm getting the distinct impression that gasoline is an environmental
    hazard not only when it is burned for power, but also when it is just
    sitting around unuseable for power....
    
    Ouch!
    
    
    John H-C

    John, they put the vapor recovery systems on fuel hoses at gas stations
    to minimize the gasoline vapor which is forced out of the tank as you
    fill the gas tank.... the vapor recovery nozzle has a hose within a
    hose.  The 2nd hose has a slight vacuum which sucks the gas vapor back
    into the filling stations fuel tanks where it is recondensed into
    gasoline.  It saves the atmosphere.... and the loss of fuel which other
    wise would go into the air.  
    
    Yes, petroleum products are environmental hazards whether they are
    burned, poured on the ground, evaporated into the atmosphere, poured
    into lakes or the ocean.  Of course the environment can absorb a
    certain amount of petroleum pollution without undue damage.  For
    example, under the ocean there are 'oil leaks' from natural oil fields
    under water.  As in many environmental insults... quantity and
    frequency of the insult matters.... allot.
    
    Jeff

    
    Not to side-track, but a couple of weeks ago, i thought it best
    to get the snow blower out, start it and put it back in the barn
    
    WRONG...  each spring i'm a good boy, change the oil, run fuel
    preserv. thru the engine, and store with a full tank...
    
    this year i got bit, the dam thing wouldn't start, i had fuel
    and plenty of spark,,,, the fuel had just gone bad, after
    draining the fuel tank and filling it with new fuel, it
    started right up...
    
    i put my other motorized housedhold things to sleep, except i drained
    their tanks, and ran them dry...
    
    JIm (who-now-has-old-gasoline-too-get-rid-of)
    
    

    I burn all my old/contaminated gas in the lawn mower.  I have a 20+
    year old sears push mower and I just dump the stuff in careful not to
    get water or solid particles in the tank.  I have done this for years
    and it still starts on the third pull every time.
    
    I have some gas and water mixed that I got from my boats fuel tank and
    stuff drained from the fuel/water separator.  I leave it outside in the
    shed in a plastic container.  When it gets cold enough to freeze the
    water I will pour it into my lawn mower or snow blower.  I have even
    used old gas in my older carb type cars with no ill effects.
    
    Gordon
    

re .20:

Let me see if I got this right -- the gas station folks suck the gas 
vapors that belong to me out of my gas tank and into their tank, they 
then condense the vapors, and sell my gasoline to somebody else????

That's THEFT!!!! I'm calling my lawyer!

:-)

re                <<< Note 932.23 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >>>

> re .20:

> Let me see if I got this right -- the gas station folks suck the gas 
> vapors that belong to me out of my gas tank and into their tank, they 
> then condense the vapors, and sell my gasoline to somebody else????

	You got it partly right.   They also suck the evaporated gas 
out of other peoples' tanks and sell it to YOU !

That is  RECEIVING !!!!  (stolen property)

> That's THEFT!!!! I'm calling my lawyer!

Good idea, remember to explain  EVERY PART OF ALL THE TRANSACTIONS (-:


	We joked around with this one time;  it only works if the 
tanker truck recovers the vapors from the gas station tanks, 
and if the tanker truck filling depot recovers the vapors from the 
tanker trucks
and if....
We concluded that it probably doesn't make it back into the oil well, 
so eventually it all gets vented to the atmosphere somewhere.

	R

    
    
    The cost of vapor recovery is pretty prohibitive. And remember that the
    vapors that are recovered would have been lost to the atmospher anyway
    since they would be displaced by th gasoline that is entering the tank.
    
    
    There is probably all of one or two tablespoons of gasoline that are
    lost due to vaporization- you los emore than that with the car sitting
    it the hot sun on an august day.
    
    Dick
    
    

    
    
    I wish it were August, and i was complaining about my truck sitting
    
    in the hot sun, costing me money cause i'm losing gas to the
    
    atmosphere...  8)
    
    JIm

Gee, wish I had the numbers at hand, but when California first went to 
vapor recovery systems statewide, the estimated fuel savings totaled 
something like an additional day's fuel saved each year.  Regardless of 
the precise figure, I recall it was a surprisingly significant amount.

J.

    re .23
    
    Forget the theft or reception, how would you prove which molecules are
    yours versus anyone else's???
    

    
    	The other day at the local petrol filling station I noticed an
    old gas tank leaning against the wall of the station and asked the
    attendant what they did with the old/bad gas. He said "We have a tank
    over there that we dump it in and a guy comes and picks it up". I asked
    if I could give him some and he said I'd have to ask the boss...
    
    	Nothing concrete, but certainly a starting point.
    
    Rick

If I put my old gas in my car, as suggested in previous
notes does the oil gas mix have a bad impact on the motor?

Reading all the preceding notes I realised that
last year I was lucky to meet at the gas station
a guy that gladly took my half tank of old gas.  I asked
him what he was doing with it and he told me
that he was a tree pruner/cutter and very often
they burn the green wood using gas as a fire starter.

Michel.

    Yes, what about oil/gas mix in a carburated 4 stroke?  How about in
    a fuel injected 4 stroke.  Rick?
    
    Jeff

Well, let's see...
At 50:1, there's 2.66 oz of oil per gallon of gas.

If you dump 1 gallon of old/bad gas into a tank already containing
15 gallons of good gas, you now have 16 gallons of gas with 2.66 oz.
of oil.

I calculate that to be a 770:1 gas/oil ratio.  I don't think it'll
be a problem.  I'd be more concerned about the effect of the old
gas gumming up the works, which is why I wouldn't add more than a 
gallon per tank of good gas. Preferably even less, and I plan to 
filter it carefully thru a paper paint filter.  I guess it depends
on how much and how fast you're trying to get rid of the old stuff.
I have 5 gallons to get rid of myself.

Rick

    Rick, I would think that even if the gas has some amount of varnish in
    it that if you were to throw a bottle of carb cleaner (the type that
    claims to remove varnish deposits) in with five gallons or so of "bad"
    gas, that one would not have a problem with a CARBURETORED vehicle
    burning the stuff.  I would be less willing to use it in a fuel
    injected engine because of the small size of the injectors.
    Wayne

Since the oil/gas will mix any way at some point
to increase the oil concentration would not
hurt much.  Is my deduction correct?

Michel.

<                -< Same conclusion for  a 4 stroke lawn mower? >-
<Since the oil/gas will mix any way at some point
<to increase the oil concentration would not
<hurt much.  Is my deduction correct?

Why would there be any gas & oil mixing in a 4 stroke engine of any size?

In a 4 stroke engine the oil in the crankcase lubricates the moving parts and
the gas is used as fuel for combustion and a cooling agent for the valves, in a
2 stroke engine there is no crankcase oil so the lubrication (oil) is added to
the fuel (gas) and the gasoline delivers it to the bearings, wrist-pin, and
cylinder walls during the exhaust/intake stroke. 


The mixing of oil and gas in a 4 stroke engine should not cause any major
problems in "very" lean mixtures, but will cause the "blue" smokescreen as the
oil burned in the combustion chamber is purged.  In 'rich' mixtures there may
be excessive carbon deposits and it may affect the ignition point (aka it will
run rough). 

Al

    I have a tank of gas that is about 9 months old and was not
    "conditioned". Is it too late? Will adding conditioner now help
    anything or should I toss it? If the latter, how can I dispose of it
    safely and legally? Thanks,
    
    Chris

    >  how can I dispose of it  safely and legally? Thanks,
    
    
    Dump it into the gas tank of your favorite automobile, well diluted
    with fresh gas. Even if it is mixed with 2 stroke oil, adding a gallon
    of mix to 10 gallons in your tank will cause no harm and you get to
    legally burn it, and cut down on what you pay at the cas pump.
    My end of season gas always gets run thru my car.
    
    Bill
    

    re .-1 you might want to decant it into a container where you can see
    it to be sure you aren't adding raw water to your car. If it has been
    sitting that long, it may have become saturated. I'd mix it with
    a tankful of  higher octane than usual, and not more than a gallon
    per 10 or so.
    
    Bill
    

    .36  Buy a snowmobile :^)

    	I tend to use up my old gas in my chain saws and/or lawn mower. If
    you have a snowblower, that may be a thought come this winter. Water is
    heavier than gas, so it sinks. If you have a hand pump or siphon hose,
    you can take gas off the top and pour the remainder into something to
    check for water. 
    
    	Ray

    Using old gas in a snowblower or chain saw is fine if it is diluted
    with fresh gas. This person is talking about gas that is 9 months old.
    If it has absorbed a lot of water and otherwise gone stale, I wouldn't
    try to run it without diluting it. I have seen motors (lawnmower)
    that wouldnt start or run at all from the previous season's
    gas (8 months old?) but which ran fine as soon as the old gas was
    replaced with fresh.
    
    Bill
    

    It's proebbly worth noting that you can't see a lot of the water.
    Some of it combines with the gas in solution. This is especially true
    if there is any methanol in the gas. The methanol will quietly absorb
    water until it reaches a saturation point and then release it.
    That is why the more expensive "dry gas" products contain isopropyl
    alcohol and not methanol. The point of the above is that just because
    you pour off the gas, leaving separated water behind doesn't mean that
    there also a lot of water absorbed in the gas also.
    
    Bill
    

 I'm not sure if any of you know this... The NEW gas on the market that they 
 are using in city areas and my town too is a different animal than the ole
 gas.

 In speaking with an industry professional, he told me the NEW gas has a 
 short shelf life 60-90 days. If your area is using this gas, you can abandone
 all notions of the past.

 We used to fill up the tanks, drop in some stable and see you in the spring.
 With the NEW gas, you want to get this crap out of there and live with a 
 little dry gas in the spring for moisture accumualted. 
 
 Most new boats have fiberglass tanks anyway and condensation build up in an
 empty tank is almost a non-issue.

 BTW--> I haven't put my boat away... There's no ice! Plus, the fish are
 still biting-- albeit I got one with a frosted fin last week.

 -Dave

    re .43
    
    I was talking with a Tohatsu dealer on this subject and was told
    to keep the tank of my little critter (3.5 hp) full. Emptying out the
    tank will make the gaskets in the carb dry out and then leak in the
    spring.
    
    I use  2x or 3x amount of storage additive in the lawnmower, snowblower,
    chain saw, motorcycle and the two outboards. Haven't had a problem yet.
    In fact, I ussually add some just for the heck of it, unless I know
    I am going to use the fuel up immediately.
    
    If you have a lot of gas, give it to the marina. I used to. They need
    a lot of it for moving the boats to the sling, and bringing them in
    from their moorings. And if it already has oil in it, they are more
    than happy to burn your "free" fuel.
    
      john

 JOHN,

 I'm sorry --> I was referring to boats with motors...('^')

 - Dave
 

    >JOHN,
    >
    > I'm sorry --> I was referring to boats with motors...('^')
    >
    > - Dave
    
    
     No problem Dave. That's for my tender. The "big" boat has a 9.9. Then
    again, I got 300+ hours on the water this year and it cost me 18
    gallons of gas. But I did have 4.5 gallons left over in a tank, so I
    put that in my Jeep. We only use motors for motoring back when the 
    wind dies, or tight movements in a marina. When you use a motor as
    little as we do, but depend upon it working 1st time, you get good 
    at knowing how to stabilize fuel.  ;>)

    Question:
    		I've had my boat in storage for > year and the gas is
    "old".  Would anyone know the proper way to start out the new season?
    I'd like to drain it & give the gal new high octane food this spring, 
    but I'm doubtful I could find a proper way to dispose of the old petro.
    Any ideas or suggestions?  Additives/boosters?  Has anyone been in a
    similar situation? As I recall I have a fairly full tank, maybe close
    to 25 gallons.  Not that it makes any difference but the boat is a
    bass boat w/115 merc.  My gut feeling tells me I should not use the old
    gas...?
                          /k

    I'd hate to even guess how much it would cost to dispose of 25 gallons
    of "toxic waste". I'd be seriously inclined to mix up a couple of
    gallons of fresh premium fuel with enough fuel conditioner to cover what's
    already in the tank and dump it in and run it.
    
    I've got about 10 gallons of fuel in my tank left over from a late fall 
    day trip - but I added fuel conditioner when I filled the tank 'cuz I
    knew I wouldn't run it dry before hard water set in. I don't expect any
    problems ('course I have my fingers crossed ;^)
    
    Cheers!
    
    /dave

    If the gas is unleaded I would siphon it out and run it in my car.  If
    oil is mixed in with it I would still run it in my car but only use
    about 25% of the old gas/oil mixed with 75% non-oil gas in my car.
    
    I would do this until it is all used up, which for me would not take
    more than 2 weeks.  Don;t burn this gas if you are going for a vehicle
    emissions test though.
    
    Mark

	Re - 48

	As -1 said, I run the old gas (50/50 mix) in my carburated winter
 rat whether it has two stroke oil or not (the oil helps with bugs, plus
 there is nothing better than 2 stroke fuel burning in the morning to get
 the blood moving ;-). I usually do this with the lawn mower/weedwhacker/
 snow blower/boat. I also run some 2+4 fuel conditioner in the last tank
 in the fall. I would worry a bit about adding it to a fuel injected car
 though.

	Norm