Conference vicki::boats

    Gordon,
    
    Hate to say it, but condensation is "in". Surrounded by water, heated
    up and cooled down over many cycles a 60 gal tank will collect
    (condense) a lot of water. And, perhaps the configuration of your system 
    requires you to get about a quart of water before you run in to trouble.
    
    Yes, I'd look for leaks that might have allowed the water to enter,
    particularly after "BOB" came by with all his hot air; but I'd still
    bet on condensation. Didn't it amaze you that the Marina just happened
    to have the "answer" right there (water/fuel separator/filter). You
    aren't the only one to find H2O where a carbon chain ought to be.
                                                          

    I assume you have a built-in tank. If the vent hole is angled towards
    the bow, wave action can blast water into that vent and into the
    tank.
    
    Steve

    Or, your vent, if like mine, just happened to be in the right direction
    to allow wind-driven rain (compliments of Bob) to enter the tank.
    Chances are, you already had condensation, before the storm, and the
    storm just brought you over the threshold of pulling the water out with
    your fuel pump pickup line. The chances of recent condensation should
    be small, considering that the fuel tank would have to spend some time
    below the dew point in order for that to happen. If you boat on fresh
    water (sounds like you may use the ocean) then the lakes have not been
    below the dew point for awhile, which means your tank should have been
    above the dew point since June/May. If you use the ocean, then
    condensation could have occured recently because of high dew points.
    The chances of condensation during high dew point times is directly
    proportional to how empty your tank is. A full tank leaves no room for
    condensation, but a tank that's empty has lots of room for the
    condensation process to take place. That underscores the importance of
    storing with a full tank, since many days of the year, the nights are
    cool enough to leave your tanks very cool, and the daytime warm-up
    coupled with the rise in dew point leaves you with a very sweaty tank
    of fuel. Storing the tank full of gas minimizes the chances of this
    condensation amounting to much.
    
    Mike (on his 5th season with the same fuel filter/water-separator)

    
    
    Hey Mike, I wouldn't rave about being on the 5th season.
    
    Think you may have a time bomb...
    
    When you least expect it....
    
    
    JIm..

    Jim,
    
    That's why I carry a spare on board!
    
    No worries, mate!

    Thanks for all the replys.
    
    I think that .3 is closest to what probable happened.  The boat
    bouncing in the slip plus the wave action from the stern and the
    swirling wind could have drove water in thru the vent (which faces
    aft).
    
    The other thing could be an improperly sealed filler cap.  I cannot see
    or smell any fuel leakage in the bilge or around the sending unit
    gasket.
    
    I'm going to keep checking/draining the water/fuel separator after
    every trip until it's clear of water.  Then I'll monitor it after windy
    and rainy conditions to see if I still have a problem.
    
    Thanks again
    
    Gordon

    I believe I have water in my gas and want to install a water separator.
    Can anyone give some pointers to a source in the Nashua, Manchester,
    Salem area to pick one up during the week. I won't have enough time
    next weekend to try and locate one at Lake Winnipeasaukee and install.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Wayne

    I believe that most boat parts dealers will have them in stock.  Price
    is approx $25-35
    
    Gordon

    Wilderness Marine carries them (Rt. 101A heading towards Milford).
    Make sure you get one that has a shut off valve on each side of the
    filter or you'll be draining gas into the bilge each time you try to
    empty it.
    Wayne

    Is it a good idea to put drygas into oil/gas fuel for a 25 hp Johnson?
    I suspect that is an absolute no no because of the oil in the fuel.
    Other than draining the tank if one suspects water in the fuel is there
    any preventive maint. one can perform to eliminate water in the gas?
    
    And what about that drygas question.... putting it into outboard mix
    is out, right?
    
    Jeff

    
    Nope, using dry gas in a boat is fine.  Snowmobilers use it all
    the time, and their motors are all 2 strokes.
    
    What you need to be careful of in a marine environment is to use
    a good grade of drygas that does not damage rubber parts in your
    fuel system, causing leaks and who knows what else. Use isopropyl
    alcohol drygas, which costs about $1.50/can and you should be fine.
    
    Rick

��                       <<< Note 899.11 by GOLF::WILSON >>>
��                       -< Use isopropyl alcohol drygas >-
��    Nope, using dry gas in a boat is fine.  Snowmobilers use it all
��    the time, and their motors are all 2 strokes.
��    
��    What you need to be careful of in a marine environment is to use
��    a good grade of drygas that does not damage rubber parts in your
��    fuel system, causing leaks and who knows what else. Use isopropyl
��    alcohol drygas, which costs about $1.50/can and you should be fine.
��    
��    Rick

    Well suprisingly, I'm going to have to disagree.  I read an
    artical which said that alcohol in the gas (including dry
    gas) tended to cause the oil to precipitate out of the gas.
    You ended up with a stratified mixture.  Either the oil
    floating on the gas, or vice-versa, I can't remember which.

    Also, there are those water absorbing sticks that you
    can dip in the fuel tank to remove water.  "Stick-Wick" is
    the brand Boat/US carries.

    
    Well, I guess I stand corrected, I'm so embarassed.  8^)  I've
    used isopropyl alcohol occasionally for a while now and have never
    noticed a problem.  But then, I haven't pulled the carbs apart
    either.
    
    Rick
    

    I think if stratification of the oil is an issue when using drygas then
    youmight experience an OIL STARVED engine.... and resulting bearing
    damage! 
    
    I think I had read somewhere that drygas causes the oil to stratify..
    and thats why I questioned the wisdom of using it.
    
    Jeff

    Not to beat this issue to death or anything but...
    
    As I mentioned my snowmobile buddies use the isopropyl dry gas 
    in their 2 cycle motors on a regular basis.  Condensation, spraying
    snow etc. causes lots of water in the gas.  These guys wail the pi$$ 
    out of their motors, it seems to me that if the drygas were causing 
    oiling problems they'd have found out by now.
    
    I'm just wondering whether anyone has documentation that drygas
    actually causes "stratification", or whether it's hearsay.
    
    Rick

    Maybe stratification of oil is not a problem when used with
    oil injection engines?
    
    Steve

��    I'm just wondering whether anyone has documentation that drygas
��    actually causes "stratification", or whether it's hearsay.

    BOATING magazine November 1984 pp 126 and 127

    re .17 Boating Mag.  I don't have a copy.  Is that the documentation of
    oil stratification caused by the use of drygas in premix lube systems?
    
    I agree, oil injection engines would be immune to the stratification
    issue if stratification does occur in pre mix.
    
    Jeff

Here's a curveball for ya.  In most states (including MA) it is perfectly 
legal for the gasoline companies to add up to 10% ethanol, methanol, or
whatever the heck it is they put in there without labelling or telling you
about it.

Therefore, a 20 gallon tank of gas could already contain 2 GALLONS or 256 
ounces of some type of alcohol.  Will the addition of 12 ounces of drygas 
into 256 ounces of *ol make that much difference?

Rick

    I once read an article in a motorcycle magazine claiming that
    dry gas is basically a waste of money.  The author claimed that
    although dry gas did mix with water, the alcohol in dry gas did not mix
     very well with gasoline when water was present.
    
    

    
    I guess i would call a ------- dealer (---insert name of dealer)
    
    and ask them your questions. I know for a fact that for inboard engines
    
    alcohol is a no no...  This is well documented by the Coast Guard..
    
    JIm
    

    FRom my memory bank  :^)  I seem to remember its the fuel lines
    that cause trouble. In a car, they are generally never made of soft
    material like I see in boats. 
    But I dont have a clue remember where I saw or read it.
    This ring a bell with anyone else?
    Jack

    Sounds to me as if the risks and uncertainty surrounding the use of
    drygas with fuel/oil mixes make other methods of eliminating water
    more desirable. 
    
    One dealer will tell you one thing... while another will definitely
    contradict what the first said.  I would call an outboard mfgr. first
    I think.
    
    Jeff

    moved by moderator...
================================================================================
Note 950.0           Symptoms of water/fuel filter failure?           No replies
HOTWTR::SASLOW_ST "STEVE"                            12 lines  18-FEB-1992 12:04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What are the symptoms of a clogged fuel filter/water separator?
    
    I have the small Racor with the kind of orange plastic bottom. Are you
    supposed to see anything in the plastic bottom?
    
    Experienced one engine falling off RPM but then coming back fine as I
    struggled into my marina yesterday in 10 foot seas. After two hours of
    that kind of seas, I just tied her up and left. I'll check her out next
    weekend. 
    
    Any ideas?
    

The point of a translucent bowl on a Racor is to allow you to see fuel 
floating on top of any separated water. If the contents of the bowl are
uniform, then the bowl is either entirely full of water or entirely full
of fuel. Racor suggests using a vacuum gauge between the filter and the
fuel pump to determine if the filter is clogged. As the filter becomes
dirtier and more clogged, the vacuum in the line increases. I've added a
gauge on my boat (diesel engine), but I'd be very reluctant to do it on
a gasoline engine without using an isolator between the fuel line and
the vacuum gauge line. I don't recall the maximum vacuum Racor suggests
(20 inches of mercury perhaps), but on our engine with a brand new
filter the vacuum gauge needle barely moves, but then even a rather
clogged filter will flow the half a gallon per hour our engine uses. 

Are both of your engines supplied by the same Racor? If so, I'd be
surprised if only one engine was affected by a clogged filter. 

    points?
    
    Check em.
    
    Bruce

    .24 how many hours on these.
    
    it falls off and comes back by itself...  
    
    JIm.

    Re boat in .24 -
    
    Separate Racors - one for each engine.
    
    125 Hours on each engine.
    
    Runs fine in neutral up to 3000 RPM - It was falling off from 2600
    under heavy load all the way to 600 rpm then coming back up. If backed
    off to 2000 rpm still under heavy load (remember 10 ft seas), it ran
    fine.
    
    This was on way back from first weekend trip of the season and had not
    been run ( other than half hour warm ups throughout winter). It ran
    fine all weekend. I was bouncing around so much coming back I figured I
    stirred up some water that must have condensed in tanks over the
    winter. At first I figured I was grinding up some kelp or something but
    it happened 3 times and there was no kelp in sight.
    I will change filters this weekend. Can one see if they are dirty when
    you take them off?
    

    Came back in 10 foot seas?  Where are you?  As I am in N.H. I still
    have a full two months of even thinking of going boating.
    
    Jeff

    re .-all
    
    Lets see 10ft seas - could have been cavitation around the fuel tank
    pickup. Most tanks aren't baffled sufficiently and that may have caused
    a problem. How full were your tanks when coming in and did the problem
    still occur when you reached calmer waters?
    
    Could be water or other debris in the fuel, fuel lines or carbs. I
    would check that out first. What you describe sounds more like fuel
    interruptus than other causes.
    
    Points - possible but not on the top of the list. Usually you get an
    more consistant bad behavior when the points go south. But, like
    everything else in the world that isn't guaranteed! I'd check the plugs
    first and see that they are ok, not fouled.
    
    But, unless you are comfortable around internal combustion engines you
    may be better off seeking help.
    
    

    It was a beautiful President's Day in Puget Sound ( Sat. and Sunday, at
    least) Temperatures were 50s and clear blue sky and sunny. The storm
    wasn't supposed to come in until Monday evening. Guess what, it
    surprised us by blowing in Mon AM about 4 AM.
    
    Seems like I will concentrate on fuel supply and filters, water, etc
    this weekend. Plugs and points will be checked but I think they are OK
    or it wouldn't have run at 2000 under load or 3000 RPM in neutral.
    
    We do have nice boating weather here year round, it is just in winter
    things change fast.