Conference vicki::boats

                           <Chrysler parts>
    
    Perley"s Marina in Rowley claims they can get Chrysler parts.
    
    Phone  948-2812
    

    there is a registered dealer in leominister. all i remember is taking
    a hard left on 117 just as you come into the center, then a hard
    right onto a street that takes you out into the country, and right
    near the power lines. I'll try to remember my dealer directory tommorow
    and update this note.

    I believe that hard left turn off Leominster center goes onto Pleasant
    St.  After following Pleasant St. for about three miles, the right
    turn mentioned is probably Wachusett St. (around the power lines).
    The old fellow's name is Charles Whitney (service center is his
    name). His phone number is (508)534-8172 and his shop is 65 Wachusett
    St.  My past experience with Mr. Whitney is that he is fair, knows
    and understands motors, and will stand behind his work or sales.
    
    I have bought two boats from this gentleman and do not regret either
    purchases.  The only other dealer in the Leominster/Fitchburg area
    is TRI CITY MARINE.  Read my reply in the note on Johnson Dealers
    for my opinion of that dealership.
    Carlo

    Indeed that is the name I was trying to think of, and your directions
    jogged my memory as being correct!
    
    I bought a prop off this guy and his price was $10 less than the
    dealer in N.H. that I bought my bayliner from!! 

< Reply to Note 83.1 by KELVIN::BUZYNSKI >
                              -< Chrysler parts >-

Thanks for the information on where to get parts.  
		
							Rob.

< Reply to Note 83.3 by JETSAM::CATALDO >
                      -< MR. WHITNEY's on Wachusett St. >-

Thanks for the information on Mr. Whitney.  I'll have to call him and
see if he can help me out. I tried TRI CITY MARINE (582-7300) in
Lunenburg on RTE 2A. I guess they only work on Johnson's, Cobra's, 
and Mercruisers not Chrysler  Someone was telling me about a dealer
on RTE 13 but I couldn't find anything.

							Rob

    
    I understand that the Force outboards you see today bought out or
    acquired or changed names from Chrysler O/B's.  Maybe a Force dealer
    could help you out if you can't find parts or manuals for your motor.
    Good Luck.
    
    
    Bob
    

I like to ask the experts: 
What do you think about  4 cycle marine engines.
Are they any good? Do they have the power needed? 
Are they better than the 2 cycle engines?
Worse?
Thanks,
demetri

RE: Note 83.8   

>> I like to ask the experts: 
>> What do you think about  4 cycle marine engines.
>> Are they any good? Do they have the power needed? 
>> Are they better than the 2 cycle engines? Worse?

Are you comparing inboards or outboards?  It's really a moot point
which is better, because once you're made the choice to go with
either inboard or outboard, you don't have much choice on whether
it's a 2 cycle or 4 cycle.  All gasoline inboards are 4 cycle, and 
99% of all outboards are 2 cycle.  The notable exceptions are the 
Honda 4 cycle outboard, and the new Bayliner 2 cycle L-drive, which 
is like an outboard mounted inside of the boat.  I'm sure someone 
can come up other exceptions like the old 4 cycle Bearcat outboard,
but you get my point.

You can't say one is better than the other.  4 cycles are just better 
suited for inboard use, and 2 cycles are better suited for outboard 
use.  Either one will have the necessary power if you open your wallet
wide enough when buying the boat.

Rick

   Follow on to re .-1:

   Then you have diesels in your inboard or i/o engines which can be either
4 stroke or 2 stroke.  The DETROIT Diesel is the most common 2 stroke diesel
and perhaps has a little better power/weight ratio, but has (if the diesel
mechanic I talked with is correct) been known to 'run away' on very infrequent
occaision.  The 4 stroke diesels are less apt to have this problem. 

   RUN-AWAY is where the diesel engine continues to run on its own crankcase oil
after the normal source of fuel has been shut off increasing in RPM's until
something comes apart OR you get the air intake closed off.  This is an unusual
occurance, but I'm sure can get a little scary if it ever happens to you.

Al

Well, I did not know enough, since the boat in question is my 
brother's boat.
Then, I should have addressed the question about the Honda 4 cycle 
engine. Does anybody have any direct experience with this Honda 4 
cycle outboard engine? I am questioning its reliability, as well as 
any other  comments the experts like to make.
Thank you again,
demetri

    I've no experience with the Honda 4-stroke.........
    
    However a friend has the 9.9 hp YAMAHA 4-Stroke on his 24 ft. Grady
    as a kicker. What a beauty......
    
    Starts with one (1) pull on the cord and purrrrrrrrs like a kitten.
    Ideal for trolling as these 4-Strokes won't load up like the
    2-Strokes 'could' and no fuss mixing oil with the gas. They can
    be rigged to run right off the main gas tank of your boat. Oil
    injection on the larger 2-Strokes has substantially reduced the
    fouling plug phenomenon at low speeds however the 4-Stroke engine
    doesn't even present this problem.
    
    /MArk
     

    I'd like to preface this question with a disclaimer that it
    is a very dumb, unenlightened, ignorant question.
    
    Can someone explain why two cycle engines require oil to be mixed
    in with the fuel?  Is it to increase lubrication or to change the
    burning mixture or some other reason?
    
    Why are outboards 2 cycle and not 4 cycle?
    
    Is this due to weight constraints (I've heard that 2 cycles are lighter
    because they are easy to cool and require less heat sink...)?
    
    What's the deal......why do I have to pour oil in there??
    
    Thanks in advance for your patience.
    
    /brett

The oil is added to the fuel in a 2 cycle engine for engine lubrication,
there is no other oil used in the crankcase.  If your shop ever charges
you for an engine oil change on your 2 cycle outboard you're being taken 
for a ride.  The fuel/oil mix lubricates the motor by passing through
the crankcase before being drawn into the cylinder for combustion.
Obviously this mix does not lubricate as well as straight oil, so most
2 cycles use roller bearings on the connecting rods and main bearings.
And remember, other than the piston skirts these are the only internal 
engine parts that need to be lubricated because a 2 cycle has no camshaft 
or valvetrain.

The main reason a 2 cycle produces more power than a similar size 4 cycle
is that it produces one power stroke for every rotation of the engine.  The
cycles of a 4 stroke are intake, compression, power, and exhaust, requiring
two complete rotations of the engine to complete the cycle.  Thus, it only 
produces power on every *other* rotation of the engine, immediately putting
it a disadvantage.

One reason 2 cycles are better suited for outboard use is weight.  This
isn't much of a factor with the smaller motors, which is why you do see
small 4 cycle outbords by Honda and Yamaha.  But when you get into the 
higher output motors, it would require a very large and heavy 4 cycle motor
to equal the output of your average 75-150 horsepower 2 cycle outboard.
Another advantage of 2 cycles is that they have fewer moving parts, and with
no valvetrain they can run happily at 5000 rpm all day.

Hope this is enough to get you started.  Any more ??? just ask.

Rick

    its this simple, you don't have a crankcase, or an oil pump,
    like a 4 stroke engine does. you don't even have a carberator,
    what you have is a mixing valve, and a set of reed valves
    replacing the carburator. the lubrication comes from the oil
    you mix in with the fuel supply.
    the best source for your answer may be in the library.
    there a resources there which go into great detail.
    i'm not sure i did well at answering this, but it can get rather
    lengthy.
    
    jim.
    

RE: Note 83.15 

>> you don't even have a carberator, what you have is a mixing valve, 
>> and a set of reed valves replacing the carburator.

Jim,
This is not true.  Your right about the reed valves, but 2 cycles also
use a carburetor.  My Johnson 88 hp outboard has 2 carbs, and the unit 
I rebuilt on my old Evinrude 40 sure looked like a carburetor.

I think the difference between a carburetor and a mixing valve is just
semantics, because when you think about, that's all a carburetor really 
is.

Rick

    I think that .14 captures the whole story.  Thank you very much
    for your enlightenment!
    
    /brett

re .16:

Reed valves are just one of the mechanisms used to get fuel/air into the 
cylinder(s) of two stroke engines. Piston ports and rotary valves are two more 
ways.

    Since this note is about motors, I would like to ask about the
    anticipated longevity of my particular application:
    
    I have a 1986 Cobalt Condessa with a 260 hp mercruiser engine.
    
    My engine has 780 hrs  on it and I'm wondering how much longer I can
    expect to go without a major overhaul. Here's how it is used:
    
    100% on lake Winnipausakee, boat is used most weekends.
    95% at 25-30mph (2500-3000)rpm
    5% at 1000-1500 rpm
    Once a week I open the throttle for 5 minutes
    Oil is changed twice a season
    Doesn't need extra oil between changes
    Oil pressure reads 38-40 psi
    Engine temp reads 140-150 deg F.
    
    Same question about the mercruiser Alpha one outdrive.
    
    thx
    ron                              
    
    
    

    A good friend of mine was in the Marine Business for roughly
    45 years. 
    
    Here's what i've been told:
    
    " A gasoline engine that is freshwater cooled, (yours is)
      should last between 1500 and 2000 hours before a major
      overhaul is needed, providing reasonable care has been
      taken"
    
    
Let me add, that "providing you don't beat it to death"
    that is constantly running it to 80% or better of its
    max r.p.m.
    
    The key is make dam sure you overpower a boat. If you don't
    you'll find yourself going slower than you'd like to.
    
    
    Oh yah, "your milage may vary"
    
    JIm.
    

    I assume this is a V8 U.S. made engine (Ford, GMC, other?).  If so, the
    main indicator of good engine health will be oil pressure and
    consumption.  As the bearings wear, they'll allow more oil volume,
    which causes lower oil pressure.  As far as rings and valve stems and
    seals, overheating is generally the cause of failure, so if the eng
    temp always stays the same (low), then OK.  The one area where you may
    consider replacing before failure is the timing chain.  If the timing
    gets difficult to set, change the chain and gears, also rebuild the
    distributor (bushings, advance plate mechanism).  Depending on what
    kind of gas you've been able to run on, the valves will eventually need
    to be done, but wear is gradual, usually decreasing performance over
    time.  If you have a valve job done, have the heads AND intake
    manifold dunked at the valve job place.  This cleanes all the inner
    passages.  
    
    Basically, the number of hours before any of this needs to be done
    depends on how much weight that 260 hp. has to push around.
    
    Carl

      I agree with Jim; fresh water = 1500-2000 hours
    			salt water = 1000-1500 hours
    
      These numbers are a pretty good average BUT, they require GOOD
    and TIMELY maintenance. for example:
    
    	one mild overheating (230+ but NOT to the point of seizing) can 
    		take 500 hours of NORMAL wear from your rings.
    	Improper oil or oil changes that aren't frequent enough for
    		the type of use the engine is getting will wear bearings,
    		cam, and lifters prematurely.
    	GOOD off-season storage is also VERY important - (you can treat
    		the engine well all season, but if the cylinders get
    		rusty because of improper storage, it throws all your
    		*good* treatment out the window)
    
      On other thing; the highest LOAD you put on the engine happens
    at the speed just *below* planing speed.(and perhaps FLANK speed)
    It is always a good idea not to hold the speed at those points.
    
	Kenny_who's_helped_his_father_wear_out_several_sterndrives :^)

    Any of you engine experts have an opinion on what the above figures
    might be for outboards  (again, given decent maintenance and off-season
    storage)?
    
    One gets the impression that the big, heavy, low-reving, "truck"
    engines must inherently last longer, but on the other hand, outboards
    have fewer moving parts...
    

     WOW that's a tough one. I've seen a LOT of outboards used for a
    l o n g time and I don't EVER recall seeing one that was used up.
    
      Since outboards don't usually have hourmeters on them it's tough
    to say how much time you can get on them.
    
      I've seen a LOT of outboards that were very old (30-40 years)
    that were still running fine. How many hours they had on them, or
    whether they had been rebuilt is hard to say since they tend to
    get passed around. 
    
      Most outboards I've seen seem to run fine until they blow up or
    seize due to some problem caused by old age/neglect.
    
    				Kenny

    I don't know if this is the norm or whether we have an exceptional motor
    but my family has been using the same engine since bought new in 1964. 
    It's a 55 horse Homelite (which I believe became BearCat or something
    like that).
    
    The first ever problem was last year when the water pressure from the
    tell-tale was intermittent except at high RPMs.  Also, the idiot light
    came on denoting high oil temperature.  Tore the motor down for the
    first time since new and found that the impellor was shot.  Replaced
    that and put the lower end back together and have not had another
    problem since!!
    
    The best part was that there was a parts house in Minnesota that had
    the part on-the-shelf and shipped it out the next day.  We had the boat
    back on the water the next weekend!!  Not bad for a 25 year old!!
    
    I do know that my dad used to take great pride in that motor since it
    was a real conversation piece.  Being one of the first 4-stroke
    outboards always engendered some great conversations!!  The oil in the
    lower unit was changed at the beginning of each season AND at the end
    too.  He always figured that if he covered the `what ifs' then he never
    had to worry about the `if onlys'.
    
    Dana
    

    re .25
    
    for those in this conference that are not familiar with the
    Homelite 55 (Bear Cat).
    
    Its is an outboard only from the way its mounted, its is not
    2 cycle. It has a crankcase and valves. They are very heavy.
    The concept was great, but it never really caught on.
    
    But in any case for it to have lasted 25 years, pretty good.
    
    JIm.

      The ONLY thing that make an outboard an outboard - is where/how
    it attaches to the boat.
    
    				Kenny

    re:  .27
    
    kenny, no dispute that "outboard" means "outboard of the transom"
    
    I agree. Just thought i would add some clarification for anyone
    who may not be familiar with the Homelite 55.
    I would expect longer engine life from it because it has
    a crankcase, oil pump etc. 
    
    Its certainly different strokes for different folks.
    
    IMHO most outboard failure at least of the past is folks
    could not always get the right mixture of oil, or they just
    at times forgot to add it. Also i havn't seen anyone i know
    of have much luck with rebuilt powerheads.
    
    JIm.
    

re             <<< Note 83.22 by CSMET2::CHACE "I love cool weather" >>>
>                           -< Attend to their needs >-

>      I agree with Jim; fresh water = 1500-2000 hours
>    			salt water = 1000-1500 hours
    
>      These numbers are a pretty good average BUT, they require GOOD
>    and TIMELY maintenance. for example:
    
>    	one mild overheating (230+ but NOT to the point of seizing) can 
>    		take 500 hours of NORMAL wear from your rings.


	Geeze, dunno why this should be so  - -  with 180 - 190 degree 
thermostats in trucks and cars I have to believe the blocks run this
hot on the highway most of the time.  Radiator pressure caps hold the
system under pressure so that they CAN run above 212F most of the
time.  I know we use 140 - 160 degree thermostats in boats, presumably
because the system can't (usually) be pressurized and the (sustained)
load is usually higher  ....but even so ????

	A few things I was very thankful for this saturday when we
trolled through the weeds: 

	i)	My boat has a thermometer (Oh, some folks call 'em
		temperature guages (or "gages") I don't mind). 

	ii)	I was smart enough to be watching it 

	iii)	It was a 30 second or so job to turn off the engine, 
		lift the motor cover, unscrew the pick-up strainer (no
		puns on THAT, please) clear it, re-fill it with 
		clearer water and be on my way. 

	I/Os and outboards should be so easy to clear...

		well, unwrapping the weeds and fishing line from the 
	prop wasn't much fun (-:, (-:,  but even that wasn't too bad.


	Reg

	Saw the comments a few replies back about the Bearcat/Homelite
    outboards. I have 3 of them plus a couple of Junkers I use for parts
    (I should say-they are my son's since I donated them to him).
    
     They are great motors- quiet, smooth and gas sippers-my 55 HP Bearcat
    on a 16 boat would go a heck of a lot faster and use half the gas of a
    40 HP Johnson I had on the boat previously. The 4cycle engine gas a
    distinct advantage over the two cycles - at least in boat engines- they
    use a lot less fuel- the basic design of a 4 cycle allows for more
    complete combustion and the valving allows better breathing and purging
    of exhaust gases. - Just look at any of the boating mags for boat tests
    where they test the boat with both inboards and outboards- the fuel
    consumption figures tell it all.
    
     The Homelite company decided to build outboards in the late 50's- they
    took the CROSLEY automobile engine, modified the crankshaft and the oil
    pan and sttod it on end- it was a 55HP 55CI overhead valve engine. In
    those days, 1HP per CI was High performance and then some. They sold
    out to Fisher-Pierce (Boston Whaler) ,changed the name to Bearcat and later
     they were sold again until they finally expired in the early 70's
     (One of the motors I have is a 58 Homelite and one is a 1972 Bearcat.)
    
    The lower end was built like a tank- towards the end of their existence
    , Bearcat took a COventry Climax 4 cyl 85 HP engine and modified it to
    mount vertically. Put it on the lower half aof a Bearcat- and there was
    a fine engine- the Coventry Climax engine was used in the early LOTUS
    race cars, and I belive it was the same basic engine.
    
     The main problem with the Bearcat was weight and cost- they were good
    , but not cheap.
    
    With the smmoth,quiet operation of a 4 cycle, plus getting the engine
    in back of the transom and the mounting eliminating a lot of vibration,
    that was the smoothest, quitest engine I've ever had in a boat,
    including my current OMC V/8.
    
     If  you ever hear of anyone needing Bearcat parts- I've got a basement
    full. When the dealer in RI went belly up, I bought out all his stock
    (a van full) for a miniscule amount. I'd like to get rid of most of it.
    
    Dick 
    
    

      The reason why it "can be so" is because there are always spots
    that are of higher temp than the water. (small localized areas around
    the heads, exhaust valves, etc) If the *water* is at 230-240 then
    there are spots that are probably 260-280. At that temp the
    water/anti-freeze is starting to boil(in unpressurized systems,
    these numbers are much lower) (remember, this is all very
    localized) where the little bubbles are - there is NO water. the
    spots underneath those areas gets very hot, and the oil starts to
    cook. When the oils cooks and turns to coke, at loses virtually
    all of it's lubricating qualities. The area where this occurs gets
    more wear and because of the addition friction - more heat; which
    just makes the cycle worse.
    
      These kind of things happen in small areas first as the engine
    starts to heat up to excessive amounts. The engine may never seize
    or show other signs of problems, but much damage can still be done.
    Another problem which comes from this is that the oil takes a real
    beating. Then the same oil is used to lubricate the engine for an
    undetermined length of time *after* it got messed up. This can cause
    problems by itself, even when everything else is OK.
    
    				Kenny
      

    re.all
    
      I have an old Chris-craft outboard, It was made in 1956. It still
    runs but does need some work in the one cylinder. It is amazing to me
    that somethingder than I am is still running. 
    
    				Steve m.
    ps If anyone knows of anyone with Chris-craft motor parts it would be
    appreciated.

Hi Steve,

I have an interest in old outboards, and in fact will be joining the 
Antique Outboard Motor Club (AOMC) shortly.  A friend and I recently 
visited a museum in Laconia which is owned by a private collector.  
He has ~300 motors, dating back to something like 1907, and has a mint
1950's era Chris Craft outboard.

Tours of the collection are available by appointment, there is no charge 
although donations are accepted.  He spent over 3 hours with my friend 
and I, describing the history and technical details of almost every 
motor there. We spent a few minutes looking at the Chris Craft, but 
I don't remember too many of the details.  Unlike many of the companies 
of that era which put their name on someone else's motor (e.g. Firestone, 
Western Auto) I believe that Chris Craft actually built the motor themselves.

The AOMC has a periodic newsletter which is a good source of info on
parts and supplies for restoring your motor.  If you're interested in 
joining ($20/year) let me know and I'll post the address here.  I'll 
also send you the name and number of the collector mentioned above 
off-line.  He generally does not sell parts, but can probably steer you 
in the right direction. 

Rick W.

P.S.  Would you be interested in selling that motor?  8^)

    Rick,
    
      I would be extremely interested in any information you or anyone
    could supply. This is a very nice piece of hardware except for the
    problem of no parts availability. I have been told by many people that
    it was one of the smoothest running motors ever. It does have excellent
    low speed characteristics. 
    
    				Let me know,
    
    				Steve m.....
    

    I looked around and this seems like a good a place as any for this, if
    not Mr. Moderator please move it.
    
    I keep my boat in a slip in the Merrimack river in Newburyport,
    Salt/brine water.  I have an outboard engine.  My questions is: Should
    I leave the engine down (lower unit in the water) or up?  I have seen
    both at various marinas but the majority is down.
    
    I leave it up out if the water. There is a zinc attached to the
    enginemount that is still in the water.  The advantage (i Believe) of
    leaving it up is to keep growth/critters out of/off the lower unit.
    
    I run the engine out of fuel (disconnect fuel line) before I raise the
    engine.
    
    Are there advantages to leaving the engine down?  Water pump prime?
    Wasted fuel?  What do you guys do?
    
    Gordon
    

    I suggest you leave it up and don't run the engine out of fuel:
    
    Leave it up because:
    
    1. It will reduce marine growth.
      
    2. It will reduce lower unit corrosion.
    
    3. and, it will reduce the infiltration of brine into the lower unit.
    (They 'all' leak some).
    
    I suggest you don't run it out of fuel because the engine will run
    briefly oil starved as it winds down to a stop upon running out of
    fuel/OIL mix through the crankcase.
    
    Jeff

    I think this topic was covered before. There are advantages and
    disadvantages to both. If the unit is in the water you get more growth
    etc but if you leave it up you get more internal salt deposits etc. 
    	I leave mine up when moored...but most of the time I take it home
    and wash it.   ;^)

    I would like to leave it up out of the water for growth, corrosion,
    etc.  A previous note about running it out of gas could cause possible
    damage to moving parts due to lack of lubrication.  Do people who
    trailer their boats run their engines dry after use?
    
    In the previous note more salt buildup if you leave the engine up. 
    Sounds like I'll get corrosion whether it's up or down.  I donot have
    the luxury of flushing is out with fresh water after each use.
    
    Thanks for the reply's 
    
    Gordon
    

    Re .38>
    	I do not run my outboard dry for the reason stated in a previous
    reply...temporary lack of lubrication.
    	The salt build up was brought up in a previous discussion about
    this some time ago. I guess immersion/drying cycles contribute to 
    corrosion more than just immersion. I am quoting from someone else on
    this so I can't swear to it. I think the additional fouling when
    immersed more than makes up for this anyway so I always tilt mine out
    of the water. 
    	Anyway you look at it the effects of the elements are pretty severe
    in a salt water environment.  
            

    I am the noter who brought up the poor lubrication issue when running
    a oil fuel mix 2 stroke out of gas... actually this criticism of
    letting 2 strokes run out of gas was brought up by a pro who repairs
    outboards for a living.  I trail my boat.  If the engine is not going
    to be left sitting for an extended period of time > a month its not
    necessary to drain the carb.  But when putting the engine up for the
    winter why not just drain the carb via the float bowl rather than 
    starving the engine for proper lubrication?  
    
    Your points about wet/dry cycling the lower unit and thus increasing
    wet/dry corrision is well taken... it probably does accelerate salt
    water corrosion.   But what about those lower unit seals which 'always'
    seem to leak some amount of water into the gearcase.... the longer
    the unit is immersed the greater the chances of water getting in..
    especially if left underwater for weeks during week day lay ups?
    
    I suppose the gear oil is fabricated to handle the small amount of
    water but I still shudder at the thought of salt water sitting for
    days around those gears and bearings when all I have to do to min-
    imize that risk is tip the unit up out of the water.  
    

    RE: .40
    
    I never drain the carbs for winter storage.  I always fog the 
    motor, and it would be hard to time the two so that it runs out 
    of gas just as the motor achieves maximum smoke output.  Chances
    are it would run out of gas either before the motor's fully 
    fogged, or would continue to run and burn off all the fogging oil.
    
    A better solution IMO is to treat the gas with fuel stabilizer, and
    let it remain in the carb, fuel lines, etc. so that gaskets and seals
    don't dry out.  I just add the specified amount of stabilizer before 
    the last trip of the season (or add a gallon or two of gas with the 
    stabilizer mixed in).  Then fog the motor, and shut it off about the
    time your neighbors are ready to call the fire deptartment, leaving 
    the carbs and gas lines filled with gas.  You'll never have to worry
    about the motor starving for oil as it quits.  Quite the opposite, 
    if it's fogged right you'll have oil dripping out of every exhaust
    opening in the motor.

    Rick

I thought that one of the reasons for fear of leaving unit up was prop theft.

john

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 896.3                      DESPERATE BOATER                          3 of 5
MR4DEC::DCADMUS                                      20 lines  14-AUG-1991 08:49
                    -< OLD MOTORS=SPECIAL ORDER FOR PARTS >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    The starter should not be a problem-if you have the old one, take to a
    local auto electric shop-they can rebuild them or get factory rebuilts-
    and much less expensive than the dealers.
    
    
    Check your yellow pages for an authorized Johnson or Evinrude
    dealer-both motors are made by OMC and are pretty much identical
    engines. For an engine that old, you will probably not find a lot of
    parts in stock,and I suspect you will have to order any parts you need.
    
    
     If that doesn't work- I suggest you start calling dealers closer to
    the coast where there are a lot more boats . 3A marine in Hingham, Mass
    is one of my recommendations.
    
    
    
    Dick
    

    Moved by moderator..
    
================================================================================
Note 896.4                      DESPERATE BOATER                          4 of 5
SALEM::NORCROSS_W                                     4 lines  14-AUG-1991 09:19
                         -< Whitney's in Leominster? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know somewhere in the file is the discussion of Whitney's in
    Leominster, the guy with the barn full of older OMC parts.  I don't
    remember what the topic was to do a search.  Does anyone remember?
    Wayne

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 896.5                      DESPERATE BOATER                          5 of 5
TIS::GRUHN                                           21 lines  14-AUG-1991 09:49
                              -< Whitney Service >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
                          Whitney Service
                           Wachusett St.   
                         Leominster,  Mass.
                           508-534-8172
    
  Owner, Charles Whitney, a retired fellow, spends his days and evenings
  puttering about in his shop/barns. Has just about anything you might
  need.  I restored a 1958 Johnson 35 Hp and a 1960 18 Hp Evinrude with
  good parts from him very inexpensively.  He closes for lunch from 12-1
  and supper from 5-6 or 6-7 (I can't remember which).  Easy place to
  get to but ask someone  from that area.  I only know one way of getting
  there.  Good luck.
    
    Bill
    
    
    
    
    

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 928.0                       Outboard Repair                      No replies
ADVLSI::FONTANA "Eric Fontana"                        7 lines   5-NOV-1991 13:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
	I've done a dir/title=mech dir/title=repair, and didn't find any
	topics related to outboard engine repair.

	I've searched most of the better bookstores for a "Chiltons" like
	manual for Evinrude outboard motors.  Anyone know where I can get
	a Chilton like manual for a 1981 25hp Evinrude?  Thanks/eric

Eric,
Typing "DIR/TITLE=OUTBOARD" gives the list attached below...  For a
Clymer's manual on your Evinrude, check any Johnson or Evinrude (OMC)
dealer.  Your local library may also have one.  You can also order 
the "factory" shop manual, any OMC parts department should be able to 
tell you where to order one.
Rick

    22  MEMV01::PROVENCAL    26-MAY-1988    26  Johnson Outboard Motors
    83  PARITY::MITCHELL     19-JUL-1988    46  Outboard Parts and Repairs
    86  ASPEN2::BOIKO        25-JUL-1988     7  Ideas on buying new Outboards...
   107     BTO::MILAZZO      10-AUG-1988    11  Johnson Outboard Lower End Problem
   108  SWAFAC::ZHENG        11-AUG-1988    11  Outboard Motor Won't Rev
   131  WILLEE::DALTON       25-AUG-1988     4  Outboard Powerhead Question
   155   HSK04::TILLANEN     16-SEP-1988    11  Questions about FORCE -outboards
   171  RUTLND::DAY          28-SEP-1988     2  Yamaha Outboard Dealers in NH?
   179  FANTUM::GRENIER       7-OCT-1988     5  Evinrude Outboard Lower Unit Repair
   238  SPOTON::NERKER       17-JAN-1989     9  question on adding 2nd outboard
   390  KDCFS1::LANGE        31-MAY-1989     5  Scott Outboards (Do you remember them)?
   425   WMOIS::YOUNG        29-JUN-1989     8  Johnson outboard has no power
   556  SSGBPM::PARNELL      14-NOV-1989     8  SOURCE FOR OUTBOARD ENGINE PARTS
   567  WJOUSM::MILLS        13-DEC-1989     6  Outboard Mounting height?
   568  ISLNDS::LANE         13-DEC-1989    22  Shopping For Small Outboards
   569  WOODRO::EDDINGS      14-DEC-1989     3  Johnson 40hp outboard problems
   681   NRADM::SPENCE        1-JUN-1990    22  Bringing an old outboard back to life
   706   COBRA::HURLEY        5-JUL-1990    12  Old 50 hp Mercury outboard questions
   735  PEACHS::GILBERT      14-AUG-1990     2  Replacing Teleflex steering on Merc outboard
   773    GOLF::WILSON        4-DEC-1990    15  Antique Outboard Motors
   798  LJOHUB::REDFIELD     19-FEB-1991    48  Small outboard features and prices?
   817    STAR::KENNEY        8-APR-1991     5  Poor sailing program needs help with outboards
   818    TOTH::ORLOWSKI      9-APR-1991     8  Outboard break-in procedure?
   827  SA1794::PARKERJ      23-APR-1991     3  Ted Williams outboards
   831   SNOWY::HEDRICK       2-MAY-1991    13  Evinrude outboard won't shift into forward
   837   HYEND::POPIENIUCK   13-MAY-1991     4  Need some info on Tohatsu outboards
   852     SQM::NELSON       10-JUN-1991     0  Stolen outboard motor
   861   SNOWY::HEDRICK      18-JUN-1991    10  Evinrude outboard fuel problem?
   903  ADVLSI::FONTANA       3-SEP-1991     4  Outboard tiller steering conversion

    
    
    Here are some sources: - you will have to find the phone #'s adress 
    elsewhere in this notesfile;
    
     J.C. Whitney (an automotive mail order house)
     Bliss Marine
     Defender Industries
     E&B Marine
     M&E MArine 
     Ward marine
     Goldberg Marine
     Overton's
    
    Also most of the bookstores in the malls carry O/B manuals. I have
    found them better than the factory manuals because they tell yopu how to
    repair without investing Megabucks in special OMC tools, except where
    they are absolutely necessary.
     
     
    Dick
    

Overton's, 1-800-334-6541

Clymer Marine Maintenance and Repair Manuals

Evinrude/Johnson, 2-40 HP outboards, '73-'87.  Covers 14 gas and 5 electric
models.  368 pages.  $18.95 (reg. $21.95).  Order #20227.

...Roger...

    Ward's carries SELOC tune-up and repair manuals for Evinrude/Johnson.
    There are four different volumes and no prices are given.  If you want
    to call them the number is: 617-846-1421.  They are located in
    Winthrop, Ma.  I would just go to a big city library and make a copy of
    the sections of the Clymer's manual unless you are going to use it
    often.
    Wayne

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 929.0                       Envinrude Blues                      No replies
ADVLSI::FONTANA "Eric Fontana"                       24 lines   7-NOV-1991 16:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty good at fixing small engines, lawnmower/snow blower, etc.  I have
a 25hp Evinrude outboard that needs a little work.  Are there any "chiltons"
like manuals for outboard motors? I've looked in some of the better bookstores
and found nothing.  Also, If I can't get it running very well, I'm going to
take it somewhere to be repaired.

Here's what happened:

I bought the motor and it was supposedly in excellent working condition.
It had sat for quite some time.  I put new plugs in, and started it up,
it seemed to run very strong and without sputters, farts, etc. After 1
week of use (during a vacation) I started to see large amounts of gas
dripping from the carb bowl.  I figured the float was stuck, so I took
off the carb (very carefully) and dropped the bowl, flushed it out with
some gas, and replaced it.  The dripping stopped.  When I was testing it
out, the engine started to sputter erratically, I looked closely, and noticed
that one of the engine coils (it's a two cylinder) had a crack in it, and
there was a spark grounding out to the block. I then went to Gauch bros. and
bought a replacement coil.  I put in the new coil, no more spark, but the
engine is running very rough, almost as if it's out of timing.  There seem
to be almost no adjustments to the carb, I can't tell if it's not getting fuel,
or my mixture is off, where are the adjustments?  Any help, also, can anyone
recommend a decent (fair priced) mechanic to take this to in the spring that
won't cost me an arm and a leg.  Thanks /Eric

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 348.6                      Barnacle Removal                          6 of 6
SALEM::GILMAN                                        13 lines   6-FEB-1992 11:54
                                -< Shaft Wear >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This seems to be the appropriate place to put a note on shaft seals
    since its associated with the water pump.  Moderator, feel free to move
    this if necessary.
    
    I have a water leak into my lower unit through the shaft seal just 
    below the water pump on my 1973 25 Hp Johnson.  Examination of the
    shaft shows a worn area right where the seal runs on the shaft.  God
    knows how many millions of turns it took to wear that into the shaft.
    Does anyone know of this type of wear is typical on outboard drive
    shafts at the point where seal and shaft runs together?  Should I
    expect this to happen again when I install a new shaft or is this the
    result of a problem with the seal/shaft?  OMC wants $ 138.50 for a new
    shaft so this is not an inexpensive repair. 

    I will answer my own question since I have new info.  It seems the
    shaft wear at the water pump/gear case drive shaft seal is typical.
    Mine was not particularly severe.  Charlie recommended polishing the
    shaft with some crocus paper and putting in the new seals.  I plan to
    test the reassembled unit soon to asuure myself that there is no lower
    unit water leak now.  He also said that he has seen outboards 'running
    fine' with milky lower unit oil and the oil running out of the lower
    unit when the ob was out of the water.  He also said that the lower
    unit will run fine when lubricated with WATER.  I would think that
    might cause corrosion problems though, and I wouldn't test that theory.
    
    Jeff

    
    In response to "Charley's" comments in the previuous note about lower
    units running fine when lubricated with water-that's a bunch of
    hogwash. IF they would run OK, why wouldn't all the mfr's jus go ahead
    and use water instaed of going to the expense of all those seasls etc.
     A freind had a seal go on a brand new Johnson 85- it lasted all of
    about  15 min before the whold thing seized up.
    
     The lubrication properties of water for metal against metal are almost
    nil.If the lower unit is leaking oil into the water or vice-versa, you
    need to get it fixed (unless you have lots of money).
    
     Dick
    

    I agree with YOU..... that the unit would be ruined if lubed only with
    water.  If water was an ok lubricant, then corrosion alone could be reason
    enough to fill the unit with oil.
    
    During WWII there was a troop ship which had been torpeodoed in the
    stern.  The shaft alleys were flooded.  The ship was in port with Axis
    bombing about to begin that night.  The choice was operate the ship
    with flooded shaft alleys and risk bearing siezure or lose the ship to
    bombs.  The choice was operate the ship and take the chance.  So the
    ship headed out at reduced speed and proceeded to another port where it
    could be dry docked for repairs.  She made it ok with no bearing
    damage.  In this case, salt water acted as a sufficient
    lubricant/coolant for SLEEVE type bearings on large propeller shafts.
    So, I don't think the CONCEPT of water as a lubricant is that far out.
    What is hydroplaning or water skiing if it isn't an example of waters
    lubricating properties?  In the case of SMALL high speed needle
    bearings water might well not do the job well enough as the case you
    presented indicates.  Obviously if the mfgrs. eng. tests showed that
    water would do the job they would have designed the lower units to be
    water lubricated.  Sure would save alot of seal changes and the need to
    keep the lower unit sealed and oil lubed. 
    
    Jeff
    

I have a  7.7 hp Chrysler outboard motor manufactured in the
early seventies. It misfires at low rpm's and smooths out
at medium to high rpms. According to the previous owner, it
has had this miss since day one but he never did anything to
have it repaired. The engine has low hours (20-25).

The misfire is like clockwork in an otherwise strong running 
engine. At low rpms the miss occurs maybe every 1.5 seconds.

Could this be an electrical problem?

	thanks in advance,

	Steve

Steve,
It could be either ignition or carburetion that's causing your problem.

A low speed miss, that seems almost like one cylinder is trying to "kick
back" and causes a severe jerking motion of the motor can be caused by a 
lean idle mixture.  This can be the result of having the idle jet adjusted 
too lean, try adjusting the low speed mixture screw out 1.5 turns from being
bottomed out. Then once the engine is warmed up, adjust for the best idle
with no missing or skipping.  A lean idle mixture can also be caused by
a clogged or dirty idle jet and internal circuitry, or low float level. 

On the ignition side, a low speed skip could be caused by a weak or cracked
ignition coil, bad condenser, bad or mis-gapped spark plug, bad plug wire,
and dirty, worn, or mis-gapped points.  

If messing with the idle mixture doesn't cure the problem, the condition 
of the ignition coils and point gap are the next things you should check.
Cracked coils can cause all kinds of intermittent problems.  And an 
incorrectly set gap on one or both set of points can cause your exact 
problem.  What happens, is that if the point gaps are mismatched by even 
just a few thousandths, the ignition timing for the two cylinders will 
vary be several degrees. In which case you will never get the motor to run 
right, because while the timing and mixture for one cylinder will be just 
right, the other will have a different timing setting and require a different 
mixture setting.  The symptom of this is that you can spend all day trying 
to get the idle and/or high speed mixtures adjusted, and just never seem 
to be able to get it just right. The correct method of setting point gap 
is to set to factory spec, and then use a degree wheel with a pointer and 
a penlight to be sure the two sets of points are opening EXACTLY 180 degrees 
opposite each other.

If you would like more info send me VAXmail

Rick

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 994.0              HELP NEEDED TO I.D. OLD EVINRUDE              No replies
USMFG::WGRABOWSKI                                    11 lines  11-JUN-1992 08:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Can anyone tell me of a way to identify what motor I have. I would
    like to obtain an owners manual for it but need a mdl# and serial#.
    The motor is "an early 60's" Evinrude 10h.p. Old style prop [exhaust
    does not exit through hub, dual gas line. The only # I can find on 
    the motor is on a round silver emblem on the side of the cylinder
    head. I know this is not much to go on but I would like to pick up
    an owners manual if possible to make sure it's maintained properly.
    Would any of you old motor fans have any clues?
                                                     thanks,
                                                     wayne
                                              297-2424

    
      Well, to start with, if it has a dual gas line then it is not newer
    than 1959. I am not positive which year they stopped using the dual
    line, but it was not later than 1960. 
    
       Look around the motor bracket to see if you can find a small plate
    (About 3/4" X 1.5"). The model and serial number would be on that.
    Remember that it may be painted over or corroded badly depending on the
    condition of your motor.
    
    	Hopes this helps at least a little. Keep us informed.
    
    				Kenny

    Oops,my mistake. It is not a dual gas line. I talked to an Eninrude
    dealer who thinks those two sets of numbers I mentioned on the
    silver plate on the cylinder head are the model and serial#'s.
    It looks like it's narrowed down to 1960 -1964. The guy is digging
    up a serial # listing and I will call him back. Hopefully those
    model years used the same owners manual then I won't need the exact
    year.                               
    
                                                               wayne

    One more "old" outboard question. What about using todays unleaded
    gas? Is it ok or do you need any additives? BTW found out my old
    evinrude is a 1961.
    
                                                             wayne

    
    From what little i know, unleaded gas is not good for 4 strokers
    built prior to 72, the valve seats were not hardened.
    
    since yours is a 2 stroker, and has no valves, you do not have
    that problem.
    
    JIm.

Wayne,
2 stroke outboards have NEVER needed lead, they don't have any valve seats
to wear out.  What they always needed is enough octane to prevent pinging,
which is deadly to an outboard.  If you use a good grade of at least 89, 
and preferably 92 octane unleaded you'll be fine.

You should probably change the fuel lines in the motor to the newer type
alcohol resistant hose.  Unleaded fuel has lots of alcohol and will
deteriorate the older hoses.

Regarding oil, use OMC brand oil at a mix of 48:1 (1 pint oil/6 gallons gas).
Older motors that specify 24:1 can be safely run at 48:1 with modern oils. 
If by chance, a tag on the motor specifies 16:1 ratio (1/2 pint per gallon)
as 1950's OMC motors did, you should never run it any leaner than 24:1, even 
with modern oils.  These motors have bushings on the crank and rods instead 
of needle bearings, and can't tolerate a 50:1 ratio.

Rick

    How can you tell if your outboard is pinging?  There is so much ambient
    noise that I don't know how you would hear ping.  Didn't someone
    say that the pung noise when an ob is at low speed is ping?  Is that
    an indication of whether your running too low an octane.  I thought
    outboards 'always' made that pung noise when idling?
    
    Jeff

    	My understanding is that O/B's are relatively low compression 
    and do not require high octane fuel, i.e. above 89. I got this info
    from a USPS Engine Mainenance Course, which may not be the absolute 
    authority but usually can be relied on.
    	Anyway the point is moot since leadless gas has come on the scene.
    No lead burns dirty and leaves cabon deposits which can cause major
    problems. Higher octane fuels tend to burn cleaner and the higher
    priced fuels usually contain additives to further clean any residues.
    	I have been burning 89 octane till recently but I'm using the
    premium stuff along with an additive now. I want to clean up whatever
    is probably already gumming up my cylinders and want to prevent any
    future deposits. 
    	I'm also going to start educating myself on 2-cycle oil. I've been 
    using OMC with no problem but I saw an ad for Yamaha oil and it went on 
    about their super low ash residues, or some such thing. I just might
    start reading labels and comparing.
    	I think this topic was discussed recently so there may be
    additional info around.
                                       

RE: Note 83.65
>> How can you tell if your outboard is pinging?  There is so much ambient
>> noise that I don't know how you would hear ping. 

That's exactly the point, most often you CAN'T hear it ping.  Which is why
you run the best fuel you can get and afford, regardless of whether you think
it's pinging or not.

>> Didn't someone say that the pung noise when an ob is at low speed is ping?
>> Is that an indication of whether your running too low an octane. 

I think what you're referring to is the low speed "skip" or "kick" that you
get on some outboards when the idle mixture is set to lean.  This has little
to do with the octane you're using, and can usually be eliminated by richening
the idle mixture, which is done by turning the idle adjustment knob counter-
clockwise.  Correct setting is usually about one turn out from being bottomed.

>> I thought outboards 'always' made that pung noise when idling?
    
No, see above. If you have that problem it needs to be corrected.


RE: Note 83.66
>> My understanding is that O/B's are relatively low compression and do 
>> not require high octane fuel, i.e. above 89.

OMC a couple years ago came out with an advisory that all motors should be
run on 89 octane MINIMUM.  While the static compression ratio may not be
high compared say to cars of the late 60's, larger outboards are actually
very high performance motors.  In most cases they are pulling 1hp per cu.in.
of displacement or better, which is far more than your average high performance
car.  They are also operated at high rpm, under heavy loads for long periods
of time, and can use every bit of octane you can afford to feed them.

>> I saw an ad for Yamaha oil and it went on about their super low ash 
>> residues, or some such thing.

All of the oils from the major OB mfg'ers make the same claims, Yamaha's is
nothing unique.  I don't think you can go wrong with oil from OMC, Merc, or
Yamaha.  Be careful using Yamaha oil though if you switch, I don't know if 
it's still an issue, but Yamaha *snowmobile* oil isn't (or wasn't) compatible
with other oils and couldn't be mixed together.  Once you switched to Yamaha
oil you had to stay with it or drain the oil injection tank to switch back.
Their outboard oil may not have this problem.

Rick

    
      You're right, this was touched upon before. Rick is absolutely
    correct in that it is quite difficult to hear the ping on a water
    cooled two-cycle outboard. You just want to make sure you avoid it
    completely. 89 octane minimum should be sufficient for all but the
    higher HP motors, but it can't hurt to go higher if you're in doubt.
    Although it does NOT help to use a higher octane than you need. The
    only trouble being it is not always easy to tell just what that number
    *is*, so it is best to err on the high side.
      The 'static' compression ratio of a 2 cycle engine is typically quite
    low (on the order of 7-9 to 1), but when combined with the ram effect
    of tuned intakes and exhausts (which ALL two cycle engines have to some
    degree) the NET compression ratio can run VERY high - as high as 15:1.
    The reason is that the pressure waves that are harnessed in the intake
    and exhaust tracts actually end up stuffing the cylinder with more air
    than ambient pressure allows - just like a turbo or supercharger
    does...... but this is not a good place for engine theory. Feed your
    engine well and it will last. 
    
      Don't underestimate the work that a two cycle engine (especially in 
    a boat) is doing. For example, the SeaDrive on my father's boat is 
    158 cubic inches. It produces 175 propshaft horsepower which will be 
    close to 200 crankshaft. It is required to put this power out
    continuously sometimes for an hour at a time and it does this while
    running not too far from it's RPM redline (During a long offshore
    run). By contrast, one cruises down the highway in their car say at
    60-70 mph with the engine putting out perhaps 1/3 of it's rated power
    and at nowhere near it's RPM redline. (The average car needs ~30-50 hp 
    to push it's way through air at those speeds) This is easily understood 
    when you think of how much you let off the gas when you're cruising 
    down the highway and the fairly low RPMs you're turning at those speeds. 
    
    				Kenny

    At least with a 2 stroke you don't have to worry about burning the
    exhaust valves with too high octane...

    RE: .69
    Even with a 4 stoke, you don't have to worry about an increased chance 
    of burning exhaust valves if you use higher octane gas.  Higher octane 
    gas burns cooler and with a much more controlled explosion than low 
    octane gas.  So there is actually a greater chance of burning valves
    (and pistons) with lower octane gas.
    
    If you want to avoid burned valves, you SHOULD use premium gas.
    
    Rick

    "Controlled" = slower burn.  Higher compression burns faster, therefore
    higer compression GENERALLY requires higher octane.  In the olden days,
    right after they invented the wheel, they invented stuff like Sunoco
    260, which was real high test (96? 98? octane?)  This WOULD burn the
    non-hardened valve seats* in low compression motors, as combustion
    would continue a bit after the exhaust valve had opened.  
    
    *non-hardedend valve seats  See "Unleaded Gas - The Early Years."
    
    
    ;-)  ;-)
    
    Carl

    I used to run pure Sunoco 260 in my modified 427 Corvette. I believe it
    was 102 octane rating. The other gas I used to run was from Hess
    Stations in Maryland. That was 102 for sure.

	Awe common 
	We all know the Sunoco Dial changes the price not the octane!
	Almost had us on that one....HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa

    Don't know what is true today since I haven't seen a Sunoco station
    since I left Boston in 1976. But the dial certainly changed the octane
    rating in the early 1970s since my 427 was very sensitive to octane
    rating. It was modified and blue-printed and balanced. Maybe you've
    just never had an engine that cared, therefore you never noticed any
    difference.

    Yes, Sunoco still exists. In Maryland at least. You can tell the
    difference if you've got the engine to make use of their hi-octane
    lemonade.
    
    (Original owner of '67 GTO -Now sporting Tri-Power-)

    RE: .71
    
    Carl,
    I stand corrected - I've received some mail offline from another
    boats noter (thanks Kenny!) that has convinced me that under 
    certain conditions it IS possible to burn an exhaust valve if
    using too high an octane fuel.
    
    I do think the chance of it happening with today's pump fuels are 
    probably fairly remote though.  The high test that we can buy today 
    (92-93 octane) is about the same as what was considered to be 
    "regular" 25 years ago.  Older engines that specified regular and 
    are now being run on high test are getting about the correct octane 
    rating that was specified.  They're not getting the lead that they 
    also require for valve seat lubrication, but that's a different issue.
    
    One thing that should be pointed out, is that the octane rating system 
    has changed from 20 years ago, much like the hp rating sytem has changed.
    The old Sunoco 104, if it were readily available today would have a 
    lower rating.  The previous method used a theoretical resistance to 
    knock, or "research" rating. There is now also an actual test of knock 
    resistance using an engine built to a standard set of specifications, 
    called the "motor" method.  The motor method is a real live test, and 
    gives a lower rating than the research method.  That's why today's 
    ratings in fine print say "R+M/2", it is an average of the two rating 
    systems.
    
    Rick

    Moved by moderators...
    
================================================================================
Note 999.0          Check your tilt hydraulic lines annualy.          No replies
BTOVT::JPETERS "John Peters, DTN 266-4391"            9 lines  24-JUN-1992 08:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One of my external (submerged) hydraulic lines for the power tilt on my
    1981 Mercury V150 outboard ruptured yesterday as I was tilting the
    motor down.  Luckily, it occurred while the boat was on the trailer.  
    
    As this could be a disabling event on the water, I recommend checking
    these lines as part of annual maintenance.  It would also be wise to
    replace them after, say, five to seven years of service.
    
    J

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1018.0                   Pointers 69 Johnson?                    No replies
TWEKE::HANEY                                         15 lines  28-AUG-1992 08:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Before I disassemble the whole motor,does a 1969,85 hp johnson have 
    points? If so are they located under the flywheel? Because Im having
    starting troubles,no spark,plus I can't get it too turn over with
    the key,I have to but a jumper from the battery to the start soilenoid
    to get it to crank.
     Does any one out there have a wiring diagram for this motor??
    This boat (17'clastron)and motor was given to me,and it ran two years
    ago,but they have no manual with it.I know about engines but this is
    my first boat motor. 
    
              HELP" I want to go sking......
                                                Dan.
    
    P.s. Kenny this is your mother inlaws boat,maby you can help?
    Hows that floor in that bayliner?

    I'd fix the "no crank" problem first.  When you crank it over
    by jumping it, are you remembering to turn the key to the "on"
    position?  Without it, you'll have no spark.  Or if the switch
    itself or the wiring to it is bad, you may put it in the "on" 
    position and still have no spark.
    
    Once you get the motor cranking normally with the key, check 
    again for spark.  If there's still nothing, I would strongly 
    suggest that you buy a repair and troubleshooting manual for
    the motor before going any further.  Check to see what voltages
    are required at the various connectors on the motor, and make
    sure the boat's electrical system is providing them correctly.
    If you suspect a wiring or electrical problem with the boat 
    itself, you'll have to just start tracing wires and draw your 
    own diagram.  It's doubtful that a factory diagram for the boat
    is available or even exists, and electrical systems in most 
    older boats have been modified so much over the years that a 
    diagram is useless anyways.
     
    Rick

    
    
     Try to check the ignition switch, for corr., broken wire, if you dont
    see either try to hot wire the ignition switch, if that works the
    problem is the switch itself.
     as Rick said once you get the motor cranking then check for spark, if
    there is none, it could be the points or the coils, and by all means
    make sure you are not in a position to get a shock from the coil.
     
         If that still doesnt fix the problem contact me off line and let
    me know where you live at, I know a DEC employee who used to work for
    johnson/evenrude and he is an excelent mechanic.
    
    
                                                       Lee
    

The fact that it won't crank AND there's no spark leads me to believe
there's something wrong other than the ignition system. Like, maybe the
neutral safety switch is gunked up? Or the wiring from the ignition
switch is somehow screwed up?

    Will it turn over by hand with the spark plugs out?  When I froze up my
    lowerunit, the engine wouldn't turn over either.
    
    Gordon

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1018.0                Evinrude Blows 20 Amp fuse                 No replies
WMOIS::ROBERTSON                                      8 lines   1-SEP-1992 13:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Would anyone out there have any experience with Evinrude 70 hp
    motors blowing 20 amp fuses. It's mounted on a SEA NYMPH. 
    The fue is located on the top of the Engine.  
    Seems my OMC throtle linkage has an electric choke. I believe they
    blow due the the choke. ?
     Anyone else seen,heard or would like to discuss this before I pull
    the linkage apart ?
     

    I would suggest you first find out what the fuse is for, by either
    checking the shop manual or tracing the wire(s).  Removing the fuse
    in question and checking to see which accessories or features stop
    working will point you in the right direction.  After removing the 
    fuse, be sure to check *every* accessory.  Someone may have tied 
    some obscure wire off this fuse and overloaded or shorted it.

    Once you find out what the fuse is for, it will probably still come 
    down to a matter of tracing wires, and isolating various segments 
    until you find a shorted wire or component.
    
    How are your electrical troubleshooting skills?
    
    Rick

    A friend has a 1969 Johnson 6hp, in excellent running condition,
    except...
    
    The choke pin has recently broken--part #205500.  (That's the hard 
    rubber/plastic piece you pull out with your hand.)   Repair is not
    practical, apparently.  Unfortunately for him, OMC dealers discontinued 
    carrying parts for that motor just a couple years ago.  Do any of you 
    know of a source for such a part? 
    
    Any help you can offer is much appreciated.
    
    Thanks,  John. 

    re: .85
    Whitney's in Leominster should have it, or something close enough
    that will work.
    
    Call Charlie Whitney at 508-534-8172. Or stop by at 65 Wachusett St.,
    Leominster, MA.
    
    Bring lots'o cash, it'll probably cost a whole dollar or two.   8^)
    
    Rick

    An electric choke can cause a fuse to blow.  The choke on my 15 hp
    shorted and blew a 20 amp fuse whenever I tried to start the engine
    with the choke turned on.  The choke was frozen when removed.  The
    cause in my case was the choke switch shorting causing the choke to 
    be on too long.  Probably burned through the internal wire enamel 
    causing the short and lockup.

    
    RE..78
        Back from vaca. I got the 69 85hp johnson going,and yes it was 
    neutral switch stuck open,I wish I had a terminal at home so I could
    of read that reply. The boat runs like champ!! I too have the blown
    fuse proplem on the elec.choke,all you have to do is rap the fuse
    with tinfoil until the wire fries and follow it back and you found
    your proplem!!! ;) I dont use it,Ijust go back pull the choke out
    crank it up,go back push it in and off I go... This winter I,ll take
    a look at it,put for now lets ski...
    
                                 Thanks for all replies..
                                                        Dan

    I have an old 3.9 hp merc Late 50's? The problem I am having is that
    it will start, can be revved up but die's quickly. Once it warms up
    it will idle, but once you rev it up it will die. Any clues?

    Rich

    Sounds like a fuel problem.  Check for clean, water-free fuel, good
    fuel line, clean carb (no water or dirt in bowl), gaskets in good
    shape (not dried out), float, (still floats?), no gummy fuel passages
    or jets.  Seems like idle circuit is ok, hi speed circuit gummed up?
    
    Carl
    

    Moved by mod.
    
================================================================================
Note 1036.0              Signs of old age in an outboard               2 replies
AIDEV::THOMPSON "Mike  LMO2-1/M13"                   21 lines  12-JAN-1993 14:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a 25' sailboat with a 1984 MARINER 8HP which shows some signs
of sickness. I'm not happy at all happy at having to replace it
and would like to pospone that expense.

The main problem is that it will not run at a constant
slow speed. After throttle is set to SLOW, the engine 
decreases in revs, runs rough for a while and then stops.  
This phenomenon seems most evident as I approach a dock. 
I have been left dead-in-the-water several times with
the dock just out of reach....

This problem is not solved by changing spark-plugs etc.

Is this a common problem with old engines?

What are the symptoms of old-age in an outboard?

Is death sudden 'with acute systemic insult' or do old
outboards just fade away?

	Mike

    Moved by mod.
    
================================================================================
Note 1036.1              Signs of old age in an outboard                  1 of 2
SOLVIT::CHACE "My favorite season is getting nearer" 12 lines  12-JAN-1993 15:12
                       -< Most likely just needs fixing >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Mike, not knowing anything about how you've been using that motor, just
    let me say this: Unless you have more than 1500 hours on that engine or
    it has had some extraordinary use, it will not be worn out. It is much
    more likely that it merely has some sort of problem that can be
    diagnosed and corrected.
    
      I could speculate and almost did, but there are so many possibilities
    that you really should just give it to Rick and let him fix it for
    you. :^)
    
    					Kenny

    Moved by mod.
    
================================================================================
Note 1036.2              Signs of old age in an outboard                  2 of 2
ASDS::BURGESS                                        56 lines  12-JAN-1993 15:24
             -< change the points  -  it all points to the points >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re            <<< Note 1036.0 by AIDEV::THOMPSON "Mike  LMO2-1/M13"
>>> >                      -< Signs of old age in an outboard >- 

	Ahhhh,  another topic on which the mechanically inclined (and
wannabees) can pass expert opinion  - -  cabin fever relief (-:

	Yes, its junk, take the following steps;

	a)	buy a new one  -  preferably AT LEAST a 150 (you're 
	replacing an 8, right ?  OK, so 150 should be almost enough).

	b)	send the old one to me - for ballast, since it is 
	useless as an engine.  I can tell without looking at it, 'cos
	I know about these things. 

	c))	if you come across anyone looking for an 8hp outboard 
	in  *_EXCELLENT CONDITION_*  send them to me, I'll have one soon.
	{Not your's, this is coming in from a fresh water lake in a 
	retirement community}


Or,

	Try rebuilding the carb...   it DOES have a carb, doesn't it ?
	This is a stock answer from  "click and clack".  I don't know 
	what it means, but others in this conference will tell you the
	same thing, I just wanted to be the first one. 


Or,

	clean the fuel bowl

Or,

	replace the fuel filtre

Or,

	clean the toilet bowl
		(you DO have a head on this boat, right ?}

Or,

	wait until everyone else replies to this topic, get thoroughly 
	confused and have your dealer scr<censor> fix it for you anyway.

Or,

	same as above, but when the dealer fails to fix it buy a new 
	engine (note, this is only a slight variation of my first
	suggestion - you'd just be dealing with a pro_feshnul
	scr<censor> instead of a hac<  "private party". 

	R

re: .0

A 1984 motor worn out?  Why, that sucker's practically brand new! I've 
got several 1950's motors that have never been rebuilt and are still in 
fine shape.  Oldest one is a 1927 Elto Ruddertwin which ain't worn out 
yet.

Unless the motor's been badly abused, run without oil, overheated, or 
just has a zillion hours, it shouldn't be worn out.

More likely, it probably needs a good tuneup.  What kind of maintenance
have you done on this thing?  Check the points if it's got any, or the 
electronic ignition module for cleanliness and stuff.  Clean and adjust
the carb., linkage, idle mixture and speed, etc.  Replace the fuel filter
if it has one. Make sure it's running cleanly on both cylinders.

Some other things that can cause your problem:
- fishing line wrapped around the prop shaft 
- overheating due to clogging or a bad water pump
- low compression
- A bad fuel line or connector, causing the fuel pump to suck air
- And one that I've seen a couple times. Vibrations while the motor is
  running may be causing the throttle to slowly back off until the motor 
  stalls.  I assume you're busy steering the boat and not holding your hand
  on the throttle to keep it running?  See if the throttle is moving by 
  itself while in a slow idle position. Have someone hold it if necessary
  and see if the problem still occurs.

Hope this helps...

Rick

Re 83.93

	I enjoyed that.

	One reason for my enquiries is that the
	yard that maintains my outboard also
	sells new ones--  :-(

	Mike

If you could arrange to duplicate the situation in non-threatening
circumstances you can get additional data for your investigation.
Specifically, I'd run it at that speed at which it rudely dies, and when
it does die I'd *immediately* (not later that day, right now) pull the
spark plugs and examine them. If they're dry, you lost fuel. If they're
soggy wet, then there are two choices: either they flooded out due to
excess fuel supply or they're not firing properly due to weak spark.

I had this problem with an old engine with integral fuel tank because
someone had put a rubber liner inside the gas cap, which was supposed to
have a breather hole. At relatively high RPMs there was enough vacuum on
the tank to suck air in so the fuel could flow, but at low RPMs there was
just too much vacuum in the tank and the gas would quit flowing. I'd open
the cap to see if there was any gas, thus relieving the vacuum, and I'd be
able to re-start the engine. Drove me crazy.

Art

    This is on an inboard but you explanation reminded me of this story.
    My granddad had a two inboard Matthews.  It ran fine at cruising
    speed for about 45 minutes.  Then BOTH engines would slow and die.
    They would open the engine hatches check things out and both engines
    would start and run fine... for (you guessed it 45 minutes) when the
    same thing would happen.  They had mechanics check the twins out...
    all was well.  Engines wouldn't die with mechanic aboard for test 
    run.  Put the machanic ashore and 45 minutes later both engines would
    die.
    
    It turned out that the engine compartment was well sealed.  It took 
    45 minutes for the twins to suck enough oxygen out of the area to
    choke and die.  Open the hatches... fresh air and away they go. when
    the mechanic was aboard the hatches were open to check out the engines
    which of course resulted in no problem
    
    A few air vents and the problem went away and stayed away.  This 
    drove him crazy for almost an entire season.
    
    Jeff

    Moved by moderator.  As mentioned in several of the earlier 
    replies to this topic, call Charlie Whitney in Leominster MA.
    /Rick
    
================================================================================
Note 439.14                  Registration Question                      14 of 14
WMOIS::DENINE_V                                       7 lines  14-MAR-1993 21:26
                     -< KNOW CLUE WHEN IT COMES TO BOATS >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sorry for the delay .I live in Mass.The boat is a winns or something 
    to that name .It is a 16 footer.My uncle did the boat over completelty.
    The motor is a 1969 evinrude 100 hp.The motor doesn't run .Thats my
    problem .I cant seem to find anyone who will work on it.I am told 
    that it costs to much to have the special tools?I find it hard to
    believe .Anyhow do you guys know a place in mass or southern NH
    who could work on it.

    Can anyone recommend a marina or repair shop around Center Harbor NH?
    
    I'll be looking at a boat up there in a few weeks and if the overall
    package looks good, I'd like to have the outboard (200hp Mercury) 
    checked out by local technician.
    
    -donmac

    This is part way around the lake from Center Harbor, but Jeff (Fay) at
    Fay's boat yard on Varney Point Road in Gilford has done work for me
    (my boat lives at Fay's most of the summer). The work, service and
    price are all right. I have total trust in the integrity of the Fay
    family. Jeff's dad, Merrill Fay, is the second generation owner.
    
    Bill
    

    
    My brother-in-law has had his boat worked on by Goodhue Marine
    for the last 8+ years, Stan's very good. 
    
    They're located in Center Harbor, down behind the Service Star, 
    near the ramp and where the Mount ties up.
    

    83.101 has made a good suggestion. Goodhue's is the place in CH for
    Mercury stuff. The only experience I had with them was getting a new
    fuel hose, but the built it from scratch in almost no time flat, and
    they were very reasonable. (The hose cost me the same or a little less
    than the Bliss Marine price for a standard-issue Johnson hose.)
    
    FWIW
    
    John H-C

    Hi Everyone,
    
    I'm in the process of de-winterizing the boat for the comming season
    (Hopefully the cold weather is just about over !!) and I have a 
    question for all the mechanics out there.
    
    I have a 1986 Mercury 75hp Outboard that was experiencing some problems
    last fall before I winterized, so I'm anticipating that I'll have to
    do some (hopefully) minor work to it this spring.  The motor is NOT
    oil injected.
    
    The motor starts and idles fine.  If I rev the engine in neutral, 
    everything sounds fine as well.  However, when the boat is under load,
    there is definitely one cylinder that does not fire.  During the hole
    shot, the engine runs on three cylinders.  I can tell because the
    boat does not get to full RPMs and the boat is very slow to plane
    (FWIW the boat is a 16' aluminum Semi-V hull).  Once the boat 
    approaches planing speed, the fourth cylinder kicks in and the boat
    takes off, and runs normally, until I come off plane and start all
    over again, then the symptoms return.
    
    Now, I did a little bit of investigation last fall.
    
    I pulled the plugs and examined the tips.  3 of the four had what
    looked like normal dark coloration and carbon/oil etc.  The fourth
    appeared "lighter" and drier.  I then checked the spark in the
    suspected cylinder and got what appeared to be a strong spark.
    So I swapped the plugs around and took the boat out, with pretty
    much the same symptoms as before.
    
    So I'm inclined to think that it might be a fuel delivery problem.
    My father (the mechanic in the house) tends to think it might be the
    reed valve assembly in that cylinder that is not operating properly.
    I hope that's not the case, as it is a pretty major operation to get
    at the assembly, and I'd only like to break down the powerhead if
    absolutely necessary.
    
    My questions are:
    
    + Could the problem still be an electrical one?  Could the spark only
      *look* strong enough to fire properly?
    
    + What other electrical components might be suspect?
    
    + What other fuel related components should I check before considering
      the reed valve assembly that might be easier/less expensive to fix?
    
    + What other test procedures do you suggest I try to isolate the
      the problem?
    
    Thanks alot, in advance.  With the onset of warmer weather (ok, so
    just TWO days were nice, but at least it's a start) I'm really
    anxious to get the tub ready for launch.
    
    Gus
    

    I'm not an outboard-kinda guy (straight inboard for me) but from what
    I've read, getting to the reed valves may not be as much of an
    adventure as you may believe.  I would certainly want to take a close
    look at the carb feeding that cylinder so by the time you remove it
    (them?) you are almost at the reed valves.  Of course, Rick W. is our
    resident outboard expert so listen to his advise.  It certainly sounds
    like a fuel delivery problem to me except for the fact that it smooths
    out once you stop accelerating.
    Wayne

    I only have a few seconds, will try to add more later, but I have
    some IMPORTANT info for now.
    
    Since one plug is dry, it sounds like you have a fuel delivery
    problem.  Until the problem is fixed, DO NOT run the motor at
    all except to troubleshoot the problem, and even then run it 
    very gingerly.  2 cycle O/B's rely on their fuel/oil mix for
    lubrication of the crankshaft, rods,  and cylinder walls. Since
    each cylinder is isolated from the next within the crankcase, 
    you may be running a cylinder completely dry, with no lubrication.
    At minuimum, you're probably running very lean, which *will* 
    cause problems with detonation, damaging pistons, rings, and 
    cylinder walls.
    
    More later...
    
    Rick

    
      Here's more.... *grin*
    
    
      It sounds like the low speed mixture of that one cylinder is clogged.
    When you open the carb enough to get into the high speed fuel curcuit,
    it then works. It could also be leaky reeds. I'd take that carb off and
    clean/inspect it very carefully.
    
      Rick is very right about not operating the motor much under these
    conditions. You run a very real risk of damaging that cylinder from it
    running too lean.
    
    				Kenny

    A little more info.
    
    As mentioned earlier, it does sound like you have a fuel problem.
    Non-firing spark plugs will usually be very wet.
    
    You should start off by doing a compression test on each cylinder.
    Remove all the spark plugs, open the throttle, and crank the motor 
    thru at least 5 complete rotations as you test each cylinder.  2 
    cycle "static" compression is usually lower than a 4 cylce, so don't 
    be surprised if you see them down around 75 PSI or so. More importantly,
    you're looking for uniformity, no more than 10-15 PSI variation between
    all cylinders.  A weak cylinder can cause it to run lean due to the 
    design of a 2 stroke, making you think you have a fuel problem when 
    you actually have a compression problem. 
    
    Next, if you can borrow or buy a neon spark tester, that will tell
    you if each cylinder actually has a good spark under the conditions
    in which the motor is skipping.
    
    If both of the above test out OK, you're pretty much narrowed it down
    to a fuel problem.  Figure out which carb is feeding the affected 
    cylinder, and make sure it's getting sufficient fuel and is adjusted 
    properly.  If those seem OK, it's time to pull the carb apart and check
    for clogging, stuck float, dirt, or other internal problems.  Since this
    is a Merc, let's hope you have a carb problem and NOT a reed valve 
    problem.  If you narrow it down to reeds by a process of elimination,
    it's time for what could be a MAJOR teardown. Most Mercs have the reeds 
    on the crankshaft, not just behind the carbs like on OMC motors.  They 
    are not an easy job, and are best handled by a professional.
    
    One other thought.  Merc has at least one model that allows the motor 
    to idle on only 2 of the 4 cylinders to save fuel.  If this is one of 
    them, you may have a problem with whatever linkage or circuitry is 
    used to allow the other cylinders to kick in. I don't which models use
    this feature (or bug) or how they work. This may also be something best 
    handled by your Merc dealer.
    
    Rick 

    
    did anyone mention that if your compression in one
    cylinder is down its most probably reed vales.
    
    the other thing which ive had is a faulty coil which worked fine
    when testing and also once on the plane but when i tried to 
    take off it just didnt want to fire.
    
    if you swapped the coils on two cylinders you may see the problem
    follow the coil. or buy one coil and lead and try it on the suspect
    cylinder. i used to carry a coil as part of my spares kit after a few
    problems id had. 
    
    the other reg
    

    Thanks for the responses so far.
    
    I'm going to drag the boat out this weak and continue the
    investigation.  I certainly agree with Rick, and hope (nay
    PRAY) that it is not a reed valve problem.  After looking
    through the Merc repair manual, the reed valves are in fact
    on the crank which, if they are the problem, is a major
    tear down.
    
    Here's some additional info.  The Mercury is an inline 4 cylinder
    with two carbs.  The cylinder in question is definitely the bottom
    cylinder (number 4?) and number 3 appears to be O.K.  I will perform
    a compression test this week.   Some additional questions:
    
    1) Should I de-winterize the engine prior to the compression test?
       (i.e. does the engine have to run, or can I just crank it over with
       the fogging oil still in the cylinders?
    
    2) If the problem was the carb, wouldn't both the #3 and #4 cylinders
       be affected?  Are there separate ports for each cylinder, or is it
       a single port into a single reed valve assembly for the two
       cylinders serviced by that carb?
    
    3) Anyone have a wild-guess estimate of how much a dealer might charge
       for this type of repair?  My mechanic (father) has rebuilt engines
       from the crank up, but if the prices were't too outrageous, I'd 
       probably opt for a dealer, since some limited warranty would apply.
       Anyone have a reputable dealer in the Merrimack Valley, Greater
       Lowell area that service Mercs??  How about Middlesex Power and
       Marine ??  I'll probably give them a call and find out if there's
       a flat-rate charge involved with that type of repair..
    
    
    Thanks for all suggestions.  I'll report back once the compression 
    test has been completed....
    
    Gus (who's-getting-a-bit-worried-that-his-spring-launching-may-
         be-delayed-this-year!!)
    
    

re: .108
>> did anyone mention that if your compression in one
>> cylinder is down its most probably reed vales.
   
Reg, I know that you're "down under", but don't know how your gasoline
quality is holding up.  "Up over", our gas quality is really deteriorating,
to the point that the number one cause of low compression in any one
cylinder is usually broken or stuck rings, or a melted piston.  Stuck
reeds are fairly rare.  In any case, being a Merc, it has to come apart
completely to fix either one, so he'll find out for sure.

 
>> the other thing which ive had is a faulty coil which worked fine
>> when testing and also once on the plane but when i tried to 
>> take off it just didnt want to fire.
   
As mentioned earlier, a bad coil will usually result in a "wet" spark
plug. Since the affected plug is dry, I tend to think it's not a spark
problem.  But using the neon spark tester while under load will tell
for sure.


re: .109
>> 1) Should I de-winterize the engine prior to the compression test?
>>    (i.e. does the engine have to run, or can I just crank it over with
>>    the fogging oil still in the cylinders?
    
Yes, you should run the motor a bit to burn off the fogging oil before 
doing the compression test.   Fogging oil is very heavy, and may tend to 
mask low compression by partially sealing the cylinder.  I suspect though, 
that if your "dead cylinder" problem is due to a bad cylinder, you're going 
to find a catastrophic failure in one cylinder, not one with slightly worn 
rings.  Otherwise, the cylinder would still be firing.

>> 2) If the problem was the carb, wouldn't both the #3 and #4 cylinders
>>    be affected?  Are there separate ports for each cylinder, or is it
>>    a single port into a single reed valve assembly for the two
>>    cylinders serviced by that carb?
    
Yes, you'd think that a bad carb would cause a problem in both cylinders.
Or at minimum, the problem would be in the upper cylinder, not the lower 
one, since what little fuel may be getting through would tend to settle
toward the lower cylinder.  That's why I suggested a comprssion test first.


>> 3) Anyone have a wild-guess estimate of how much a dealer might charge
>> for this type of repair?  My mechanic (father) has rebuilt engines
>> from the crank up, but if the prices were't too outrageous, I'd 
>> probably opt for a dealer, since some limited warranty would apply.
>> Anyone have a reputable dealer in the Merrimack Valley, Greater
>> Lowell area that service Mercs??  How about Middlesex Power and
>> Marine ??  I'll probably give them a call and find out if there's
>> a flat-rate charge involved with that type of repair..
   
No one will be able to give you a price of course until they know the
extent of the problem.  In the past, MP&M has had a bad reputation, with
some real horror stories coming out of there.  The place is now under
new ownership and managment from what I understand, so may be worth 
checking out.

And just to into a little more detail on what I mentioned yesterday
about a 2 cycle engine with low or no compression in one cylinder 
appearing to be getting no fuel to that cylinder...  A 2 cycle engine
operates almost as 4 (or 2,3,6,8, whatever the case may be) separate
engines, because each cylinder is isolated from each other within the
crankcase.  Each cylinder relies on the downward motion of the piston
to pressure the crankcase, which forces fuel from the crankcase, thru
the exposed intake port, and into the cylinder. The upward motion of 
the piston then creates a vacuum in the crankcase, drawing in the next 
load of fuel and air from the carb and reeds. Now, think of a piston 
that actually has a big hole in it.  The mass of the piston goes up 
and down like it should, but if the hole is big enough, pressure between 
the cylinder and the crankcase will remain constant.  There will never 
be any pressure or vacuum pulses in the crankcase, and therefore, no 
fresh fuel or air will ever be drawn into the cylinder.  You'll then 
have a dead cylinder that appears to be running lean, but actually just 
has no compression.  And because each cylinder is isolated within the 
crankcase from the others, and backflow is prevented by the reeds, you 
won't even see any backfiring or sputtering from the other cylinders or 
out of the carb, as you would with a bad piston in a 4 cycle engine.

Rick

    Rick,
    
    Thanks for all the info (despite the fact that It's all bad news,
    I still appreciate it :^( ).
    
    The only thing I don't really understand, is that if it were a 
    catastophic ring/piston failure, the cylinder would be permanently
    dead, would it?  If the piston was blown, or the rings completely
    gone, how would the engine run perfectly normal *once* the boat
    is one plane??  I am certain that the engine does end of running
    fine, once the fourth cylinder kicks in.  
    
    To winterize the boat last fall, I dropped the boat in the Merrimack
    river.  I wanted to warm up the engine to operating temperature before
    fogging the engine.  I also needed some lower unit oil, and knew there
    was a mariner on the river that I could buy it.   So, I dropped the
    boat in and took off.  The boat planed more quickly than when loaded,
    but not perfectly.  Once on plane, the boat ran at normal RPMs and
    normal speed, for 3+ miles at WOT with no problems.  After getting
    the oil etc.  The boat only hesitated less on the return
    trip (when getting on plane) and again WOT normally for the 3+ miles
    back to the ramp where I fogged the motor and that's where it is today.
    
    Of course all of this wishful thinking mught just be denial of
    the inevitable !!!
    
    I'll post more info once the compression test is done etc.
    
    Thanks again everyone.....
    
    Gus (the downtrodden)
    
    

    I love talking about this stuff so much, I guess I got a little
    carried away.  8^)  I wasn't actually saying that you DO have
    a blown piston or busted rings - it was more of an attempt to
    describe what the symptoms would be, how to diagnose it, and 
    what causes it.
    
    From your most recent description, it sounds af it was a very
    brief occurance.  I was under the impression that it was an
    ongoing thing, and that you had done some troubleshooting and
    plug swapping, and that it still continued.
    
    If it only happened briefly, it could be as simple as a fouled 
    plug or a little water in the gas.
    
    Rick

    Hi Rick,
    
    Keep on talking !!!  Though not a real techy, I do enjoy this 
    stuff as well.  
    
    The previous description was just the last day of last season.
    The symptoms were occuring the last several times out (I don't
    remember exactly how many times, but it was definitely several).
    It definitely does clear up once the boat planes.  If the boat
    is fully loaded (two people plus all my gear etc.)  It takes
    a while for the boat to plane and subsequently run well.
    
    I did do some of the preliminary analysis mentioned before, i.e.
    visually checked the spark and what appeared to be a dry plug.
    
    I'm going to do the checks you recommended (compression etc.) and
    then as part of the de-winterizing process, buy a new set of plugs
    and see what happens.  
    
    I wanted to get a feel for what might be wrong so I DON'T run the
    think without fuel in the one cylinder, causing "catastophic"
    piston failure (I had to deal with that with my jeep a couple 
    years back, and once is DEFINITELY enough :^)).
    
    Thanks again, as usual you've been a great source of info !!
    
    Gus
    
      

    
    <Rathole alert!>
    
    >>back to the ramp where I fogged the motor and that's where it is today.
    
    	Does this mean that you fogged the motor into the river?
    
    	I wonder what the local environmental cop would think about that,
    not to mention other boats that might be in line for the ramp.....
    
    Rick
    

    Hmmm...
    
    Point well taken Rick.  I did not occur to me that the fogging
    oil would make much more of an impact to the environment than 
    the burning of regular two-cycle oil.
    
    Before I continue rat-holing this particular note, I'll move over
    the the winterizing note...
    
    Gus
    

    Howdy,
    
    Well, I think the problem may be solved.  While working the
    motor over last night, I ran the motor for quite a while to
    allow it to warm up and to insure that the fogging oil was
    completely burn up.  The motor was running pretty rough.
    
    I replace all of the plugs and restart the motor.  I then noticed
    the plug wire #1 was arcing. So, I jury rigged the new plug
    wire I had, and plugged it in and low and behold no more arcing, but
    the engine was still running lousy.  Turns out wire #3 was arcing as
    well.  So, out come the spray can of silicone, spray all wires and
    connections and motor suddenly starts purring, running smoothly on
    all four cylinders, while Motor idles at 800 RPM.
    
    So, I will replace all four wires and take it for a test spin.
    Apparently the rubber coating on the wires dried somewhat and
    became porous, causing the arc.
    
    Does this sound reasonable??  Will report back once the test run 
    is complete.
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions/comments.
    
    Gus
    

    Gus, your motor was doing exactly what my truck motor was doing most
    of the winter.  When I tried to accelerate, it could hardly get out of
    it's own way.  I could feel it only running on less than six cylinders.
    Once it got up to speed, it seemed to run fine.  My mechanic checked
    everything: spark, compression, carb, etc., and could find nothing
    wrong.  He thought that it might be water in the fuel and a dirty fuel
    filter.  I kept running dry gas thru it but it never got better.  One
    night I had to open the hood for some reason while it was running.  I
    noticed that one spark plug wire was resting next to the exhaust
    manifold under the power steering pump.  The jacket was burnt thru and
    the wire was arcing to the manifold.  The mechanic probably didn't have
    the wire in the same position when he was testing it so it didn't arc.
    The spark plug didn't even look any different because enough spark was
    probably getting thru to fire it.  When accelerating, though, the extra
    gas being dumped into the cylinder with a less-than full power spark
    was probably causing it to foul.  Once I got up to cruising speed,
    everything went back to normal and it ran fine.  I replaced the wire
    and it's running fine now.                           
    Wayne

    Howdy,
    
    The good news is that the new wires completely solved the 
    problems I was having with my motor.  I went out friday and
    the motor runs superbly.
    
    The bad news is that a channel marker that was 6+ inches under 
    water on the lake allowed me to wipe out a prop  :*(
    
    Anyone know who has a decent in-stock selection of props 
    in the Merrimack Valley area at reasonable prices??  I'd
    rather not miss this weekend, if the weather cooperates.
    
    Thanks for everyones help !!
    
    Gus
    

I'm running a 1957 Evinride 35hp outboard on my boat.  Of course it has
conventional ignition, with points, condensers, and coils.  Since the
motor sees so much use, and as points wear they tend to close up and
change the ignition timing, I thought I'd install an electronic ignition
kit that replaces the points and condensers.  It's called "Magna-Tune", 
and is a "universal" kit sold by NAPA auto parts, as well as many other 
sources.

The kit consists of two small red plastic IC chips, and metal mounting
brackets.  A wire lead from each chip attaches to an ignition coil, and 
the chip is grounded when mounted to the bracket.  The points, condensers, 
and point cam are completely removed.

These chips do not pick up pulses or signals from either the crankshaft
or the flywheel.  I asked a few people, and no one seemed to be quite
sure of what method the system uses to "know" just when to fire off each 
spark plug.  The only apparent possibilites are that it either fires just
after the flywheel magnet passes by the coil pickup and the field collapses,
or that it fires when the voltage charge reaches some pre-determined 
threshold.

I had some concerns about whether either of those methodes would provide
the correct ignition timing.  It turns out, they DON'T!!!  I put the 
motor back on the boat and ran it for the first time on Sunday.  What a
disaster.  The motor wouldn't slow down to anything less than about 2000
rpm (even with throttle fully closed and timing backed off), it pinged 
badly, and wanted to keep running at high rpm after a quick opening and 
closing of the throttle.  In general, it had all the symptoms of a motor 
with the ignition timing grossly advanced.  

Since the only thing I changed over the winter was to install this new 
ignition system, I pulled it apart and reinstalled the points and condensers.  
Bingo, everything's back to normal, and the engine's running fine.

Do any of you electrical engineers have any input on how this thing is
"supposed" to work?  Since it obviously doesn't work (at least on *my* 
motor), and electrical parts aren't returnable, I'd say it's a hard 
learned $40 lesson.  

8^(

Rick

    Thanks for the advice on the places to get outboards checked out around
    center harbor.  I called the places mentioned, the only place that had
    people working on weekends already was Faye's in Gilford.  They were
    pleasant to work with and very reasonably priced.
    
    -donmac

    Rick, I can't answer you question other than all the conversion kits
    I've seen replaced the rotor with something that triggered the sensor.
    If the instructions/package/salesperson really say that it is
    "universal" and it really isn't then I would strongly urge trying to
    get you money back unless they can tell you how it will work on your
    motor.  It's one thing for them to sell you the right part and they
    won't take it back assuming that you were probably trying the old
    "isolate the problem" troubleshooting technique.  But if they sold you
    the wrong part that just wasn't meant to be used on your engine, that's
    their fault.  Do they claim that this kit also works on inboard
    engines?  I would like to get rid of the internals of my old Mallory
    point-type distributor.
    Wayne

    I think what you bought is what in the sixties was called Capacitive
    Discharge Ignition.  It is an add-on to be used WITH the points, etc.
    
    What it does is sense the points opening and closing or whatever, at
    low voltage and amperage, amplifies that signal and sends it to the
    coil at a higher (12?) voltage and amperage.  This is to prevent the
    points from pitting and deteriorating.  The rubbing block on the points
    will still wear, and the points will need replacing, eventually, but
    you should get longer point life, stronger and more consistant spark.
    
    CD ignition was the first of many steps to full electronic ignition.
    
    Then again, I could be completely wrong, and you bought a 40 dollar
    piece of crap.   ;-)  ;-)
    
    Carl

re: Note 83.121  
>> I've seen replaced the rotor with something that triggered the sensor.

This kit has no sensor whatsoever.  It's strictly solid state, with no
moving parts, or magnetic/optical pickups at all.  I'd still like to
eliminate the points if I can.  OMC started using a magnetic trigger
system like you referred to in the mid to late 1970's.  Since two cylinder 
OMC outboards were essentially unchanged from the 1950's all the way thru 
the 1970's, I may try and adapt the later OMC system to my motor.

>> Do they claim that this kit also works on inboard engines?  I would 
>> like to get rid of the internals of my old Mallory point-type distributor.

No, it's intended only for 2 cycle engines, with 1 or 2 cylinders, and a
single magnet flywheel.  That's why I tend to think it triggers off of
the collapsing field after the flywheel magnet passes by the coil pickup.
The instructions in the kit specifically say NOT to use it in 2 magnet 
flywheel applications.  Some outboard flywheels have two magnets (one for 
the charge coil) and this would cause an extra spark pulse at the wrong time.
As far as your Mallory distributor, write down the model number and take 
it to a speed shop.  There are aftermarket kits to convert Mallory systems.

re: Note 83.122
>> I think what you bought is what in the sixties was called Capacitive
>> Discharge Ignition.  It is an add-on to be used WITH the points, etc.
   
I know the type of system you're talking about, but this is definitely
not one of those.  It has no CD box, or any other external parts to
add on.  Only a tiny red IC chip to install in place of the points and
condenser.  And the instructions clearly say to *remove* the points and
condensers.  The kit isn't intended to boost the voltage like a CD, only
to replace the mechanical points as a source of wear and timing changes.

Unfortunately, as I said they seem to be triggering off the collapsing
field after the flywheel magnet passes the coil pickup.  That may work
fine in some applications if that's the exact same time that the points
would have opened and triggered the spark.  That doesn't seem to be the
case with my motor at least.  I may try and rig up a degree wheel and
see just when the points do open, in relation to where the flywheel magnet
is at the time.

>> Then again, I could be completely wrong, and you bought a 40 dollar
>> piece of crap.   ;-)  ;-)
   
I think you're right.    8^(

rick

    Moved by moderator.  Go see Charlie Whitney in Leominster MA, 
    508-534-8172 (referred to several times in this topic). He
    has dozens of control boxes and cables hanging from his barn 
    wall.  Cheap, too!
    
================================================================================
Note 1056.0           Evinrude 28 H.P. control unit needed!           No replies
ESKIMO::RINELLA                                      15 lines   6-MAY-1993 13:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    Well I couldn't find this topic so I figured I start one. Moderator
    please move to the appropriate note if one does exist, thanks.
    
    
    I just purchased an older model boat, motor and trailer, late 60's I
    believe, and have no control box. The motor is a 28 horse Evinrude
    and it dosent have an electric shifter. I was wondering were I would be
    able to pick one of the units up or make my own. I was able to start
    the motor up by directly going to a marine battery. So it does run;')
    Any and all info is greatly appriciated.
    
    
    Gus                

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1056.0             need help on outboard eng repair              No replies
SALEM::JROSS                                         17 lines  18-MAY-1993 11:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have an old (25 yrs?) British Seagull outboard engine that I would
    like to have tuned-up and or repaired.
    The engine was last used 4 years ago in saltwater.
    
    I would like to take a shot at the tune-up myself but feel it would
    be wiser to get it done by a qualified source.
    
    Does anyone have a name of a dealer/repair source in the
    Salem/Manchester N.H. area they can recommend (I live in Sandown N.H.)?
    
    Also what would be a reasonable cost to tune-up/repair without just
    tossing it and going new?
    
    BTW - I was in Baert Marine - Plaistow store is closing 6/1 and moving 
    to  
    Seabrook, everything was "On Sale"  
    

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1057.0                       Melted piston                          1 reply
DNEAST::FICKETT_DAVE                                 33 lines  20-MAY-1993 12:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Not being a full-fledged mechanic, I'd like to pick somebody's brain
    to help me understand the following scenario...     
    
      Earlier this spring, I was given a '59 10hp Evinrude.  I could get it
    started but not keep it going.                 
    
      I checked fuel, spark etc., and all was fine.  I removed the plugs
    and felt for compression by hand.  #1 cylynder was OK, #2 felt very
    weak.  After removing the head and gasket, I was 'not-so-thrilled' to
    see that the top of the #2 piston had melted in four places on it's 
    outer edge.  This lined up with the four intake ports on the cylinder
    wall.  (at least I think they're the intakes.  These four port were wet
    while the four ports on the opposite wall were dry and carboned
    assuming the exhaust ports.)
    
      My questions to all you experts are....
    
      Why would this happen?
    
      Why on the intake side?
    
      Is it worth trying to salvage?
    
      What parts and how much $$$ would you estimate for a fix?
    
    I'm probably going to be in the market for a new outboard anyway.  I'm
    looking for something a little bigger.
    
    Thanks for any advise or information.
    
                                                            Dave
      
    

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1057.1                       Melted piston                           1 of 1
SOLVIT::CHACE "My favorite season is getting nearer" 19 lines  20-MAY-1993 14:01
            -< It may be worth fixing - if not for you, somebody. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
      It IS unusual that it would happen on the intake side. It is usually
    the exhaust side that is quite a bit warmer, since the hot exhaust goes
    right by there. My *guess* (And its a BIG guess) is that something
    strange happened, like foreign objects in the incoming charge (Like
    dirt or worse) OR that you simply have the two sides mixed up and it
    was the exhaust side that melted. THAT (the exhaust side melting) can
    happen from too much spark advance, too greatly worn piston, too little
    oil, or really poor gas.
    
      Is it worth salvaging? I suppose that depends on if you can do the
    work yourself and if the cylinder walls are in decent shape. The
    cylinder is steel while the piston is aluminum, so the piston always
    loses the battle, but you also have to see what the rings might have
    done to it (They're hard). You'll need at least a new piston, rings,
    wristpin and headgasket. I'm not up on parts prices right now. Perhaps
    Rick W. can give you an estimate.
    
    				Kenny

        Well after doing alot of work to my new toy, a late 60's 14' Glastron 
	with a 28 HP Evinrude motor, I finally put it in the water on friday 
        afternoon. It ran great right across to the other side of the lake. I 
        figured I would test it out thoroughly and keep it running while doing 
        a little fishing. I hadn't fished but for five minutes when it started 
        coughing and spitting and died. I anchored and could not get it 
        restarted. I pulled the plugs and noticed that there were dry. It 
        looked like no fuel was getting to them. After draining the bowl and 
        tinkering for a bit, it finally started. It was running real rough but 
        I was able to make it back to the ramp.  

        Sunday I pulled the carb off and took it completely apart and cleaned
        it thoroughly. Found a hole in one of the fuel lines and replaced it.
        I put it all back together and started it up in the yard. It sounded 
        pretty good so I told my wife and son lets pack up and go fishing. We 
        get out on the lake and are motoring in the no wake area heading 
        towards open water. The engine is idling the best I've seen it yet! As 
        I open her up, it's only running at mid range. I check to insure that it
        is at full throttle which it is. So I tell the wife to take the wheel
        figuring that it's just a matter of adjusting the high speed jet. 

        While turning it in, it started to pick up speed then I bottom out 
        the high speed jet and it dies. Well after backing out the jet a bit,
        I try to start her back up and it just won't start. When I would choke
        it, I would have all sorts of gas coming out of the throat of the
        carb. Upon inspection of the spark plugs, they were dry as a bone. They 
        should have been soaked! Does anyone have any suggestions to what the 
        problem could be??? Should I take the carb off again and clean it or
        could it be something in the intake of the motor???  Any
        suggestions/comments is greatly appreciated.

        Thanks 
              Gus
    

    
    I've been out of touch with this notefile for awhile.  For the person
    looking for Merc related repair shops in the Center Harbor area, Tup
    Goodhue is the closest as stated, there is also Monroe's Marine out on
    Long Island at Harrilla Landing. You go down the Moultonboro Neck Road
    to the end and that's it. Reggie Monroe is excellent on Merc outboards
    and even better on I/O's and inboards of different flavors.
    
    hope this helps,
    
    Bob
    
    p.s. Boy I need a boat bad!!!!
    
    Rick, do you know of any 25' Checkmates around for the right price????
                                                                       

If this is a vented system;

	was the vent to the gas tank open?

If not, a vacuum will develop in the tank and restrict the flow rate of the
fuel to the engine.

Symptoms are - runs great at firt start up and for a period of time
               then starts to loose power and putter out.

I would also check the bulb on the fuel line to see if it has collasped
as a result of this vacuum.

If you remove the carb again you might consider inspecting/reversing the
reed valves behind it.

Doug.

    re. -1
    
    I had that happen once when I was running a sled boat up the Umpqua
    river (here in Oregon).  I was right in the toughest part of the rapids
    when it crapped out. It's hard to think when you're trying to keep from
    drowning, but I did realize I had forgotten to unscrew the aircap on
    the gas tank and was able to get it restarted in time to avoid a major
    disastor.
    
    Ken  

    re. -2


      Yes, the vent plug was open. I had that happen to me once before;').
    Monday I headed for the Worchester library and found a manual for it.
    After setting my high and low speed jets to spec and checking out the 
    vacuum actuated over-speed switch, I tried starting it up. It still
    wouldn't start. So I decided to go back to the basics and check out the
    NEW spark plugs I had installed earlier. Well the 1st plug was sparking
    fine, this is the one we checked out on the lake to see if we were
    getting a spark, but 2nd plug was shorting out internally. What a
    bummer, I  never thought of checking the 2nd plug out. I put in one of
    the old good plugs and she started right up! Oh well live and learn.

    Last night I took my father in law and son out back on the lake for a
    test ride and some fishing. It was purring just fine but again had no
    top end. After a minor adjustment to the high speed jet, we were off.
    Talk about having a big grin on my face;') Well my son, who's four,
    ended up catching 15 blue gills and lost half as many. So it was
    an enjoyable time for a change;') Thanks for the replies..

    Gus

                                  

    Hello, fellow Mercury OB owners....I just bought a 100hp o/b 1988, Had
    motor checked out and service person recommended a carb cleaning or
    complete rebuld cost $100 to 300. Now for a little background on the
    issue at hand this motor was started about 6 times on two year old gas
    by the the person who sold it to me....Is it to late to drain carbs and
    clean screens myself or should I wait the ten days for a Professional??
    
    Note motor misfireds every 10 to 20 seconds.
    
    
    
    Mel
    

    It could very well be old gas. Try some dry gas. Find out if the
    previous owner ever replaced the power pack, if not, it could be
    the culprit.
    
                             Jeff

    
    How about spark plugs??  They are alot cheaper than a power pack......
    
    Junk gas can put a build up on the plug electrodes......
    
    
    Bob

Howdy All,

I'm having a problem with my 1986 Mercury 75hp Outboard and
I'm looking for suggestions as to what the problem might be
before I start tearing things apart, or bringing it to a dealer.

Yesterday I took my boat out, dropped in the water and it started
immediately, and idled/ran perfectly.  The motor has been running
fine all season.  I took off for one end of the lake, pulled up to
a spot, shut down the engine and started fishing.  About 15-20 minutes
later, I went to start the motor, and all she'd do is crank over.
No firing whatsoever.  I pulled a plug wire and cranked it over
and did not get a spark at all.

So we spent the next couple hours using the trolling motor to get
back to the ramp and pull the boat home.

When I get home, I check all of the obvious ignition related wiring
for loose/corroded connections, and all seems well (the motor is
extremely clean, and used only in fresh water).  Still no spark.
Then I pulled at the spark advance control level on the throttle,
and then when I rechecked the spark, it appeared to be firing normally.
So all the plugs go back in, the motor submersed in water, and we
tried to start the motor, with no success, and no firing as well.

So, here are the current symptoms: Spark seems fine.  Fuel delivery 
seems fine (wet plugs after attempted starts), plugs fine (cleaned
and will fire outside the cylinder), and no ignition at all when
the motor is being cranked.

My guess is that the timing control is gone.  Is this possible given
the description?  What mechanism is used to control the timing on
this motor?  Is there some kind of belt/gear/chain that resides up
under the flywheel?  

Any suggestions would be appreciated, this problem seems strange in that
the individual components of the ignition process seem fine.

Thanks !

Gus


    
 

Put an inductive type timing light on each plug wire and check for
spark (light) while cranking. This will tell you if the plugs
are firing under load.

If all plugs are firing, check the timing of #1 plug.

If timing is correct and all plugs are firing try a little ether.
If she fires up I would check the functioning of the fuel pump and
delivery system.

Doug.

    Do you have any type of "kill" switch on board?
    I had spark at the plugs, getting fuel but it 
    just wouldn't turn over.
    The Dog had pulled the cord to the kill switch just 
    enough for it not to make contact.

    
    
      re .137
    
        I am not trying to be a smart *$$ but NEVER use ether on a
    outboard! the ether creates aa much more volatile explosion, you
    can seriouslly damage the motor by just useing ether 1 time. this is
    what I was told by a reputable OMC mechanic.
    
         If you would take the time, ask a boat mechanic about the use of 
    starting fluid, I do believe that they make a marine engine starting
    fluid, but a phone call to your local repair shop before hand may save 
    you many $$$$$ in the long run.
    
    
                                                             Lee
    

Used in small quanities it works well. Spray a little into each carb to wet 
the surface, then try starting. 

If you spray in ether while the engine is turning over you might put in
too much and blow a hole in one or more pistons. 

I've been using the stuff for over 15 years without any problems. Other
starting fluids are just not as effective.

As always, be carefull and err on the side of saftey.

Doug.

    Does anyone carry older Johnson parts in the Nashua area? Specifically,
    I'm looking for a new throttle cable (early 70's 60 hp Johnson).
    
    Ross

Call Rick Wilson....  his no is in here somewhere (everywhere)




Jim

Does anyone know a reliable outboard repair place?

I need to get a 9.9 Nissan outboard repaired.  The outboard
is currently in Bristol, RI, so somewhere near there would be
ideal.  If not there, either somewhere on Cape Cod, around Boston,
or Nashua will do.  I'd rather bring it somewhere that can
be trusted even if it's a hassle to bring it a further distance.

			Thanks,
				Maria
	

    I need a bearing housing for a 1971 60HP Johnson outboard. Just as good
    would be a lower unit or even the whole motor to salvage parts from.
    
    Anyone know who might have any of the above?
    
    7 below zero this morning and here I am thinking about boating.
    
    Thanks
    John
    
    DTN 226-6879
     

    
    I have a 1947-ish (+/- a couple of yrs) Johnson 5 hp outboard in very
    good condition.  How does one determine the value of such an antique?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Joe 
    

    Usually by the pound.
    			Peter