Conference vicki::boats

    I recently installed a Micrologic Explorer on my Boston Whaler.
    If you can install a VHF radio than you can install a LORAN.  RF
    noise can be a problem with some installations but there are
    inexpensive filters avaliable.  Best to install unit and test your
    Signal to Noise Ratio.

    How much was your Micrologic Explorer? Where did you get it? I saw
    it in an ad and it looks like a small, removeable unit.
    
    What do you think of it?
    
    Regeards,
    
    Ray

    I have a Micrologic Explorer which I bought last year. It's on my
    23' Seaway and it works great. I have it mounted on the dash/bulkhead
    and I remove it since that part of the boat is open. It is very
    easy to use, seems to be very accurate (when compared to other units),
    and I believe the cost was about $600. I bought mine at Landfall
    Marine in Hingham, Mass. Other places with good prices are Boat
    U.S. in Waltham and ELCO in Norwell, Mass. Contact me if you want
    to discuss in more detail.
    
    Fred Smith   276-9247
    LIBERTY      Hingham, MA.
    

    I have an apelco 6100 which I installed on my 21 foot Chris. All
    you need to do is wire it direct to the batery and then you need
    a good external ground. If you have an I/O or inboard you can ground
    it right to the engine block, which is what I did and I have no noise
    problem what so ever. If you have an Outboard then you will probably
    need to have a dynaplate installed for your ground. Antenna istallation
    is easy, just got to drill a few holes and run the wires. Actually
    running wire down the gunnels will the hardest part. Be sure you
    mount the unit where you can see it easily (sitting, standing),
    where it will be dry and away from your compass.
    
    
    Bruce
                                                          

    I HAVE A SEARANGER ABS 2002 FROM GOLDBERG MARINE. I paid $499 plus
    antenna. All I had to do was to wire it directly to the battery.
    Connect the Antenna and antennd coupler and turn it on. The SeaRanger
    does not require an external ground (thus no through holes in the
    hull). The loran is very accurate. When you enter a position in
    memory and store it in one of your waypoints, you can return to
    that point and be within 50 feet. To me this is very accurate.
    
    I cannot praise the SeaRanger enough.
    
    Regards
    
    Paul

    DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE SI-TEX MODEL EZ97?? IT IS RESONABLE
    PRICED AND COMES WITH A VIDIEO TAPE ON HOW TO INSTALL AND USE IT.
    SI-TEX ALSO OFFERS A LOWER PRICED UNIT CALLED THE EZ-7. IM WONDERING
    WHAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE UNITS ARE. THE PRICE DIFFERENCE
    IS ABOUT $100 LESS FOR THE MODEL EZ-7.
    			RICK
    

    I can't say anything concrete about sitex lorans, but I did buy
    a loran last spring and looked at the sitex ez97 and decided that
    it did not meet my needs for the money. I have heard people say
    that the ez-7 is not a "real" loran, but I think they reintroduced
    this unit with new/improved features. I do have a sitex paper machine
    that is in its 3rd year of use and never had a problem so I do
    think they make good equipment. How much is the ez97? If it is
    around 700 clams you may want to checkout the raynav 570/apelco
    6100 (I have this one). The units have 5 line dispays that give
    you everything you want to know on a single page. 
    
    Good luck...by the way a loran is easy to install.
    
    Bruce

    BRUCE,
       THANKS FOR THE REPLY.I HAVE A FRIEND WHO CAN GET ME THE SITEX
    EQUIP. AT A WHOLESALE PRICE. THE E-Z 7 LISTS FOR $879. AND $484
    WHOLESALE, THE E-Z 97 LISTS FOR $995. AND $548. WHOLESALE.
    	I'VE SEEN THE EZ-97 IN OPERATION AND IT SEEMED TO WORK WELL.I'M
    WONDERING IF IT IS WOTH THE $64. SAVINGS TO BUY THE EZ-7. THEY SAY
    IT HAS A FEW LESS FEATURES BUT NOBODY SEEMS TO KNOW WHAT THY ARE.
    			REGAURDS,
    			RICK HATALSKI
    			COLUMBIA, S.C.
    			DTN 367-6451		

    BE CAREFUL ABOUT GOING OVERBOARD, BUYING A LORAN IS SIMILAR TO
    
    BUYING A VHF. EX. THIS ONE HAS 88 CHANNELS, WHOOPEE, THERE ARN'T
    
    88 CHANNELS TO TALK ON, AS THEY AIN'T ALL THERE. THE CLAIM IS
    
    JUST IN CASE, THE FCC LISCENES THE OTHER YOU'LL HAVE THEM.
    
    THE SAME WITH LORAN. YOU NEED ONE THAT GIVES THE T.D'S, SPEED,
    
    HAS WAYPOINT SEQUENCING (ROUTE PLANNING) VESSEL HEADING, BEARING
    
    TO WAYPOINT, DISTANCE TO WAYPOINT, AND TIME TO WAYPOINT. BEYOND
    
    THIS I THINK YOUR WASTING MONEY.
    
    JIM.

    Compare the dispalys of both units...the more info on one page the
    better..a 4 foot chop is a tough time to be hitting buttons to
    find out how far to a way point or whatr course to steer etc. My
    unit gives current tds, distance to waypoint, number of waypoint,
    course to steer, average speed, time to go on a single five
    line dispaly. This was the main reason as well as the feeling the
    technolgy was there in me buying my apelco. 

    Do they both have memory for 100 way points? 50 will not get
    you by if you fish.
    
    Check the current draw of each unit, if you have a single battery
    the lower the draw the better as you will leave you loran
    powered up often when you engine is not. Anchor watch and
    arrival alarm is another nice feature to have.
    
    Bruce

    Does anybody know the Loran IMPULSE 3000.
    It seems a good one because he has a graphic screen with the route.
    Do you know also its price in the states?
    Thanks in advance
    
    Dominique
    

    I agree with Bruce about the Apelco/Raynav. I bough a Raynav 570
    this year and have found it very useful. It take a bit of thinking
    to operate , unlike some other units ; But is an excellent unit.
    
    Waypoints- Is 100 enough? One of these days I'll run a bouy to bouy
    program so I can get back in the river in fog or dark. This alone
    will use up 10 waypoints. I also like to keep frequent waypoints
    in memory for quick fishing/diving trips. I have four on the mudflats
    of salisbury alone.  Wreck divers would use many waypoints also.
    As well as fisherman who work structure.
    
    Get as much as possible on one screen, the time you will need it
    most is the time you will have the least time to get the info in.
    
    Make sure you train your "Crew" in use also!
    
    Never trust your loran- Sounds crazy, But allways use your Compass
    to double check it. Electronics Break! I've seen a Sub's Nav computer
    say we were in Ohio ??
    
    Installation. If your not good with electronics, Get someone who
    is a pro! A simple thing like location of power wires or ant. placement
    can make all the differance. I'm not saying a "Dealer" has to do
    it. A lot of "Dealers" don't know there (*) from their L Bow.
    
    I would buy the Raynav 570 again. The only problem I've had was
    when a "helpful" dec-hand soaked it with the washdown hose. There
    made to be water-resistant but pressure soaked is a differant story.
    Rx- Open it up and gently blow dry it . Worked fine after!
    
    There are lot's of fine units out there. I would recomend going
    to a boat show and comparing them . You can play with them all and
    see which one you like best.
    
                                    Good Luck
    
                                    Walt
    

    Has any ony had any experience with RAY Jeff LORANS?  I'm not sure
    of the model number but it's the one with the tripple screen display.
    Are they any good?
    
    Thanks

    re -1
    	
    	I probably shouldn't pass on second hand info but the boat yard
    where I bought my boat refused to install any Ray Jeff equipment.
    The yard owner claimed that they were inferior products. I have
    no personal experience with the line but thought that you might
    want to hear one person's opinion.
    
    Paul
    

In another life I worked on a variety of electronic devices. One
particular R J depthfinder (the rotating type) comes to mind; it was
junk. Truly cheesy components, poor workmanship (wires running
everywhere, no harnessing, cold solder joints and flux dripped liberally
on the pc board). It looked like early Realistic equipment. 

Construction like this can NOT stand up to (a) a salt environment or (b)
living on, say, the console of a moderately fast boat ( 30 kts in 1-to-3)
and taking some pounding. In fact, it didn't.

True, that was a few years ago. I have no recent experience.

Art

    I own a RAY JEFF loran model 990 W/ 99 waypoints (trying to keep
    track of 99 waypoints is a task in it self). The unit has given
    me good service w/o any problems for two years. The minor problem
    I had was interference with my VHF and re routing some cables solved
    that problem. The unit does all the magic tricks except catch fish
    for me.

    Can anyone comment on the Marinetek Waypointer LORAN advertised
    in the current Boat US flyer?  It seems to offer a lot of function
    for $375.  
    
    I note that it has six notch filters, which are preset, not adjustable.
    
    J

    I have also seen the waypointer in the Boat u.s. showroom in
    Waltham, Mass. The sales person really talked it up, it supposed to be
    really user friendly. All you got to do is follow the little arrow the
    salesman claimned. Well he had me sold. Just one problem... none in
    stock and they did'nt know when they could get me one. As far as how
    well does it preform for the low price I can't say. But I do have a
    sea-ranger abs-2001 that I bought for only $369. that works well, i am
    really satisified with it. It also has 6 notch filters. I purchased it
    at Bliss marine in Woburn, Mass.
    If you find the Waypointer let me know. I am curious to hear on how it
    works. I got tired of waiting for one, thats why i purchased the
    sea-ranger.
    			reguards,
    			Rick dtn 367-6451
    

I am trying to mount a Loran. As related to a compass this presents a problem
on my boat. The best place for the Loran for access and visibility is on top of
the instrument panel. This would put it right next to a compass. Micrologic
says that the Voyager must be at least 20 inches away from a magnetic compass.
Ritchie says 2 to 3 feet is a better distance. There  is only one place to
mount a Loran 20" away from a compass and still be able to  use and see it.
This location requires it to be flushmounted (kit: $45). Mounting it 2 - 3 away
from the compass would put it out of touch, out of sight (and a design of boat
doesn't provide anything in between).
                            
The choices as I see them: 1. Buy the $45 flushmount kit, cut the 5X6 hole and
mount the Loran 20" away from the top of instruments panel which allows me to
buy a magnetic compass. 2. Buy a fluxgate compass (which if I understand
correctly gives readings uneffected by, or automatically compensates for other
electronics) and mount the Loran and fluxgate compass head units side-by-side
on top of the instrument panel. 
                                                                    
   Advantages:                     Disadvantages:

1: Less expensive, total cost     Requires most work, cutting big hole in 
   would be about $130 for the    instrument panel, potential clearance problems
   Loran flushmount kit and a     with the flushmounting - looks like it would
   decent magnetic compass.       fit, but you know.... Probably involves time
                                  consuming finishing.
   It would look "factory".
                                  Loran is mounted in a position where it is 
   Loran could be left in place   more likely to get rained on, where display 
   with less fear of theft.       is more likely to have direct sun on it which
                                  could cause the display to go black if it gets
                                  too hot.

                                  I'd have to sell with the Loran with the boat
                                  as it would otherwise have a big hole in the
                                  dash and then buy another one for a new boat.


2: Simple installation, simple   Higher cost. No additional cost on the Loran 
   bracket mounting for both     side, but the lowest price I've seen on a 
   the fluxgate and Loran.       fluxgate is $222.

   Have a more accurate compass  Adds one more item to be mounted/dismounted
   with no worry about other     on each trip. 4 rather than 3 (compass/radio/
   electronics creating          depth finder) to prevent theft.
   deviations in the readings.   
                                 Could leave me with no direction finding 
   Loran is mounted under wind-  capability if electronics go out.�
   shield for better environment
   protection.

   Would take the least amount 
   of time to install, cause the 
   least amount of stress.

   Can be pivoted to prevent direct 
   sun from striking its face when 
   sitting at beach or something.

   Most of the time the Loran would
   be locked away, out of sight.

   I could retain the Loran if I
   decide to sell the boat in the
   future.

   
�This is somewhat difficult to weigh. The prudent skipper would have a magnetic
compass to serve as a backup, which naturally increases the cost of this
option. On the other hand the back up compass does not need to be as expensive
as the one you'd buy in option #1, and with either option you should have a
handheld  bearing compass - which could also be used as the backup compass in
option #2,  making the issue a wash. The chances are also good that if you
loose electric power to the instruments on a simple boat like mine you will
also have lost it to the engine, making a compass somewhat useless since you
can't make headway and you are now trying to get help to come to you. 
                                      
If I had not already spent much more money than I can afford on this boat and
its gear, it would be simple, option #2. It saves work, headaches, a lot of
stress and yields a more accurate, easier to use navigation system all for a
difference in cost of about $90. But saving about $90 also has its attraction,
especially to my credit balance/limit.

Are my thoughts on track, or have I made some bad assumptions? Other ideas?

John
    

Not having a good, calibrated, permanently installed magnetic compass is 
a very bad idea. Electronics fail for many reasons other than total 
electrical system failure, especially in a relatively open boat operated 
at high speed (eg, rain, spray, vibration, voltage spikes, etc). 
Redundancy makes for much greater safety and simplicity makes for 
greater reliability. I've never heard of a good magnetic compass failing 
suddenly and completely. I wish I could say the same of electronics. I 
hate to always sound like gloom and doom, but the ocean is very big and 
you are very small. It is foolish to compromise your safety and the 
safety of others just to save a few dollars. 

Experiment: Beg, borrow, buy, or steal a good magnetic compass. Set it 
on a table. Connect your loran to a battery and turn it on. Slowly move 
it toward the compass from several directions until the compass reading 
changes. You'll now know approximately how close you can mount your loran 
to a compass. It may actually be quite close, it may not. 

    Alan, I don't understand this comment: "It is foolish to compromise
    your safety and the safety of others just to save a few dollars."
                                            
    In choice #1 I am talking about saving money yes, but by buying,
    installing, a good permanently installed magnetic compass with a Loran.
    
    In choice 2 I am not talking about saving money, but spending more
    by buying a fluxgate compass (and probably something like a Ritchie
    Explorer magnetic compass for emergency use).
                   
    Maybe you meant to say: It is foolish to compromise your safety and the
    safety of others just to make installing a Loran easier and provide the
    opportunty to have a new toy.
     
    I guess each compass is different, but I am assume that Micrologic
    must have done some testing to come up with the 20" from compass
    recommendation.
    
    john

    John, I own a Grady White 204C. Its a 20 footer. My Raynav 570 is
    mounted in the radio box compartment. It is physically located 
    within ten inches of my Richie Helmsmen HF73 compass. I can say that
    I've never experienced any problems with my Loran and ALWAYS cross
    check the magnetic heading given by the loran with the compass heading
    I've plotted on my chart. My loran unit was installed by the dealer.
    The installation seems straight forward..power/ground...antenna
    coupler...However A separate wire WAS RUN from the chassis ground on
    the rear of the loran unit through the rigging tube (contained within 
    the gunnel) back directly connected to the negative terminal of
    the battery. I realize different lorans may act differently under
    certain conditions. If I remember correctly....Alan suggested moving
    the unit around in the vicinity of the compass. Perhaps you could
    store a couple waypoints and run back and forth between them, with
    the loran located in various places, noting if the lorans magnetic
    heading matches a compass course...AND of course, now we have to
    consider the effects of compass deviation. Your loran should
    automatically correct for the variation in the area you navigate.
    
    /MArk
    

re .21:

>>> Not having a good, calibrated, permanently installed magnetic compass is 
>>> a very bad idea. 

I'm saying that you should first have a high quality, calibrated, 
permanently mounted magnetic compass. I've tried using a hand bearing 
compass as a steering compass. It was virtually impossible to steer
accurately with it, especially with no visual references (as in fog) and 
even at low speed. Cheap compasses often have sticky pivot bearings and
poor damping (good damping is important in a high speed powerboat and in
rough weather). If you're trying to find your way home (especially in 
fog) from a ways offshore, accurate steering is essential. In my view,
an electronic compass is a backup to a good magnetic compass, not the
other way round. 

My 24' Hydrasports has a Richie compass on top of the console (I want to
say the compass is a B71???). To the right of the compass, and about 10"
forward, I have a Micrologic ML5000. Total distance is about 20" between
the compass and the loran. I swung the compass before I installed the
loran, and again after. (in fact, I swing it every year, although it's
just a quick-n-dirty sanity check now). At the 20" distance there was no
appreciable deviation caused by the loran. I get more compass interaction
from turning on lights and pumps than from the loran's presence. I don't
consider the loran a factor. 

Even if I had a fluxgate compass I'd still want a magnetic compass for
last-ditch backup if ALL electrical power failed but the engine kept
running. But I have been watching the price of the fluxgate units coming
down... B^)

One last thing: I use the loran constantly. It's never off while I'm
aboard. The loran tells me the course I have to steer, and I steer by the
compass. Why? The compass heading is constant, whereas the loran heading is
updated once every x seconds. If I steered exclusively by the loran I'd
be all over the ocean. I learned that the first year I had the loran. 

There are tradeoffs; you can program the ML5000 loran to update itself
more frequently, but you do that at the expense of accuracy and
resolution. At the hightest possible accuracy and resolution, I think it
would be updating every two minutes (it integrates more fixes for the
higher accuracy). Well, two minutes between course and speed updates is
far too much at 30 knots, so I've chosen something like 20 second update
intervals.

Does that help?

Art

Re .19>
	You didn't say what kind of boat you have but I can certainly 
sympathize with you. I own a 22' Walk-Around-Cuddy Aquasport with an 8' 
beam. That doesn't afford much space for all the electronics available 
today. 
	What I did was learn to compromise on the rules a bit. I crowded 
the electronics in the approximate location that they would occupy. I 
then hooked power to them and operated the various pieces of gear and 
looked for motion in the compass. I know this is half a@#ed at best but 
I think its a rough indication if there is any gross effects on the 
compass. Having passed that test I then mounted them more permanently 
and did a more thorough compass checking exercise. 
	After doing the exercise I feel fairly confident in what my 
compass tells me even though its crowded by electronics. My main 
assumption is that any interferrence is relatively constant (at least 
from the non transmitting devices) and that any variation will be 
repeatable (plus or minus a tad). 
Good Luck,
Paul	

    RE. .23, I understood quite well what you meant by "Not having a good,
    calibrated, permanently installed magnetic compass is a very bad idea."
    What I asked about in .21 (a different statement) was I comment that I
    thought was not in keeping with my statements.I guess you just got
    carried away.
    
    Re. .22, Micrologic says that a seperate ground wire MUST be run,
    and that such a ground doesn't eliminate compass interference. Also
    I didn't have a compass to perform the tests you and Alan were talking
    about. I was trying to make a decision on the type of compass which
    had an effect on the Loran installation. 
    
    Re. .24, "swung the compass"? How high? I don't understand this term.
    
    Re. .25, My boat is 22' Sea Ray cuddy cabin cruiser. It has hatch
    system that leaves the forward section of the cockpit not unlike a bow
    rider when open, a walkthrough to the front of the boat that leaves no
    center section of bulkhead to mount anything one, hence trying to find
    space in a crowded area of the helm. 
    
    The problem was that I had no compass. I was trying to make a decision
    on the type to get. If I got one type it meant a lot of cutting,
    drilling, finishing, etc., that I would want to do while the boat was
    still on the trailer, if I got another it would be a simple matter to
    install both compass and loran (or so I had been lead to beleive). 
    Because of the configuration of the instrument panel/forward section of
    the cockpit there were only two places to mount the Loran: 1. On top of
    the instrument panle, a few scant inches away from a compass, at most.
    2. Flushmounted in a lower section of the instrument panel that was
    20"� away from any compass installed on top of the panel. 
    
    I was trying to use the notesfile to gather the information needed to
    decide whether to use option 1 or 2, prior to purchase and cutting,
    prior to making a mistake.
    
    I took the advise of the Old Salts. I purchased a Ritchie SS-1000�
    magnetic compass at Boat/U.S., making use of their best price + 10% of
    difference policy. I also ordered a flushmount kit for my Micrologic
    Voyager Loran since it is forced off the dash top by the magnetic
    compass. I realize people send test it, and I will, but from everything
    I've read 3"-4" away from the compass (which is all it would be if it
    was placed up top) is just too close. It irritates me having to pay $45
    for a bracket instead of something productive, but that's life. So, in
    the end I save $100 and improve safety buy getting a magnetic compass +
    loran bracket instead of a $235 fluxgate compass. 
    
    john
    
    � The SS-1000 is a modified version of the flushmount Helmsman compass.
    It takes Ritchie's Powerdamp one step beyond to Powerdamp Plus, adds
    directive force magnetics, and a special fluid. The card is blue
    instead of black with larger numerals. (from memory, there may be more
    differences, they call it a "highly modified version of the..." 

"Swinging the compass" is a square-dance call. B^)

Seriously, and *very* basically, it entails being in a location where
you absolutely know the bearing to multiple fixes. Your keep your boat 
immobile (as possible), take a precise compass bearing on a fix, then
"swing" the boat until it lines up with the next fix, at which time you
record the new heading; you continue doing this until you've swung
through 360�. The compass readings show the effects of deviation caused
by compass error and magnetic influences aboard your boat.

The ideal situation would be to find a compass range, where there are
(usually placed by the government) four buoys located at the four
cardinal points. You would position your boat in the center of the buoys,
swing the boat, and note the indicated compass readings. You might adjust
the compass compensators, seek & destroy any offending magnetic fields,
or both. Finally, you would obtain (usually comes with a new, quality
compass) a compass deviation card and plot the errors for YOUR compass on
YOUR boat. Some folks then post that deviation card near the compass.

Again *very* basically, just because you physically swing your boat 90�
to get from N to E doesn't mean the compass will indicate precisely a 90�
change; same from E to S and so forth. Differences make up your
deviation. Going from N to E could show 95�, and from E to S 88� if, for
example, your Walkman is propped against the compass.

Deviation is man-made, variation is natural.

Disclaimer: this was so basic that it shouldn't be used as a procedure.
Attend a course or buy a Chapman's or equivalent. It was simply put here
in apology for snobbishly dropping in an esoteric term (swinging the
compass) and making the bad joke above. 

Benny Goodman was considered the expert at this technique. That's why he
was called "The King of Swing."

<groan>

Art

    On my 21' chris I had a simelar set up and mounted my loran on the
    other side of the walk through and it worked so well I did the
    same on the 25' grady, in fact I have 2 fishfinders and the loran
    on the opposite helm position from the wheel. I have no problem
    seeing the electronics and very little pushing buttons. If you are
    in rough sea's you only touch the loran key pad once and this is
    to punch in the waypoint number of your home port, from then on
    it is one hanbd hand on the wheel and the other on the throtle.
    The glass on the wind shield give then electronics good splash
    protection and they are out of the way of my visability. this
    alternative may be better than you give it credit for.
   
       / - ff           x compass above and ahead of box
      /  - ff    |--|   + radio in box
    /    - loran |  |   X wheel 
                  cuddy * me - standing 90% of the time
                       
    
    Bruce
    

    Re. .27, Having both attended a USPS Boating safety course and read
    Chapman's I am familiar with the idea of deviation and compensation
    of a compass, but not the pratical application this being my first
    shipboard compass. I didn't remember the term you used (the memory 
    is the first thing to go) and it sent my imagination scrambling. 
    What if the rope he is swinging it from breaks? :-) 

    I guess Ritchie doesn't make a quality compass (at least in the case of
    my Supersport [Helmsman] model - list $140), it included no deviation
    card and even said to obtain one in the installation instructions.
    
    I apologize that so much compass info ended up in this note, back
    to the topic:
    
    Re. .28, Again I am not familiar with the practical operation of a
    Loran, this being my first. I placed the Loran on the opposite side as
    you've suggested while seeking a good position for it. It seemed so far
    away, it seemed like it would be difficult to operate and to easily see
    the display at that distance while under way. I will examine this
    option again this weekend with a different eye.
    
    One display that I thought I'd like to use, and one reason I wanted
    the Loran centered on the helm as much as possible is the course
    steering indicator which looks like these examples:
    
    Course to left, steer left to get back     On course, steer ahead
                               on course
          |____|___|________|                   |_______][_______|
               ^  Bow                                  Bow
    Course line^ 
    
    A previous reply said that this is useful, but that you should rely on
    your compass for real time steering to stay on course as the display
    may not update often enough for real time use though it is good to
    check yourself with it.
    
    I guess because it is an electronic instrument there is the tendency to
    think of instant access and display. It seems people are saying that
    you should almost never be in such a hurry that you can't stop, get
    your readings, enter your destination, and get your heading from the
    Loran, and then step to the helm to operate the vessel once again. I
    know my boss keeps his Loran in his cabin, though he has a remote display. 
    
    John

re .last:

>>>    I guess Ritchie doesn't make a quality compass (at least in the case of
>>>    my Supersport [Helmsman] model - list $140), it included no deviation
>>>    card and even said to obtain one in the installation instructions.
    
Actually, Ritchie makes good compasses. The deviation of a compass is 
strongly dependent on the boat in which it is mounted -- the magnetic 
effect of engines, steering systems, etc, will most probably affect the 
compass. This is why a compass must be calibrated (swung) after it is 
installed and why Ritchie and every other maker do not supply deviation 
tables. 

    Hey, John on the "changing eyes" how the hell do you do this,
    
    they come in different colors..
    
    
    JIm.

    Re. .30, Alan, that's what I said, not what I meant. Someone said that
    good compasses will come with a deviation card. I assumed that they
    meant a blank one that can be filled out for your boat, not one filled
    in by the company. I took it to mean that if the company is any good
    they'll include a card. I was shooting for sarcasm (and obviously
    missed) by trying to say that since no card was included in my compass
    Ritchie must not be a quality provider - when in fact I think that it a
    very good company even if they tell me I have to buy my own card.
    
    Re. 31, Jim, are you refering to "a different eye" in .29? I could
    borrow my mother's dog, he does have two different color eyes. I
    meant I would look at things differently based on the recommendation
    to consider the other side for the Loran.
    
    John

    
    I have recently purchased an Apelco 6500 Loran Plotter which I intend 
    to install this week. My question is, how critical is the Length of the
    ACU wire? My manual seems to imply that the shorter the wire the better
    which would be great as this will be mounted on a small center
    console. I would like to cut this wire ( the unit came with ~20ft) and
    I'm concerned that by doing so I'll effect the receiving capability 
    of the unit. I was told NOT to cut the wire for my VHF radio, as it
    was critical to the antena length. As a result I have a coil of wire
    under the console.
    
    Any and all comments welcome!
    
    thanks
    
     Mike
    
    
    

    My loran has lived on two boats (Apelco 6100) and I have
    cut and re-soldered the barrel connect a couple of time and had
    no problems. The short the cable run the less loss.
    
    Bruce

      For *transmitting* it is important that the antenna wire (coax) be
    some multiple of the wavelength that you are transmitting on. I am not
    sure about reception. I bet it matters a little, but the loss in the
    cable is likely more than the loss would be from an incorrect length.
     But in ALL cases, you *DO* lose signal through the wire. The longer 
    the wire - the more you lose.
    
      If you tell me the frequency you wish to transmit on, I can figure
    the (various) lengths that the coax *can* be for optimum transmitting
    strength.
    
    				Kenny

    Bruce/Kenny,
    
     Thanks for the info. I called Apeclos customer service number, and 
    they agree with your assesment. Cut away! I also called Bliss Marine
    and spoke to the salesman that sold me the unit, his suggestion was to
    leave 7 feet. I'll be installing the unit tonight, and plan on the 1st 
    water test this Saturday.
    
     Thaks again,
    
     Mike
    
    

    leave a little extra cable in case you ever want to move the loran 
    or get an antennae extender.  

    Ok Joe, I'll bite. why would I want to extend my antenae? I was
    planning on leaving at leat the 7 feet the guy from bliss suggested.
    The antenae will probably end up less that 3 feet away from the loran.
    Would this extra 4 feet be enough for the antenae extender if I ever
    needed one?
    I am also going to save the old cable figuring I could get a male and
    female antenae connectors if I ever wanted to move it.
    
    
      Thanks
       Mike
    
    

    some people put extedenders on they're antenae's to get them up higher
    for better reception.  its a 4 or 8 foot extension that goes on the
    base of the antenae. 4 yrs ago i put in my loran and left about 12'
    of cable coiled up behind my loran.  next week i'm installing radar. 
    what does this have to do with the loran and extra cable?  i'm going to
    add a little platform off the top of the radar stand to mount my loran
    antenae up there, its about 8ft long.  this way it gets the loran
    antenae away from my aluminum frame on my canvas, and up higher for
    (hopefully) better reception.

    
    
      Loran signals are "ground wave" based - in theory height should
    not be a factor like it is for VHF.  Or am I missing something?
    
    
    
                                                  -al

RE :-.1 
... is right about LORAN C being ground wave propagation (100khz). When I
first installed my Micrologic on my boat I mounted a ratchet mount on the
walkway around the windshield (essentially at gunwale height). On that
ratchet mount I had a Shakespeare 4' extension, then the Micrologic
antenna module (which has filters and a preamp inside); the steel whip
mounts on that module. So, the antenna tip ended up maybe 8' above the
gunwale. 

During one particularly crazy run through 2'-4' seas I snapped the 4'
extension clean off. When I got home I eliminated the extension, and
mounted the Micrologic module directly on the ratchet mount. My receiver
SNR (signal-to-noise ratio) didn't change; neither did my lockon time or
accuracy. My conclusion: I didn't need the extra height.

Now, if your chosen location for the loran antenna puts it in a location
where it's right against a bulkhead, and it's shielded, then you might
want to move it to a more open area. If adding height is the only way to
get it into the open, so be it. But don't move it UP just to get it UP
"for better signal" 'cuz you won't win anything at LORAN C frequencies.

Now, VHF is is different story...

Art

My loran quite happily received usable signals from the 9960 chain some
600 miles out into the Atlantic with an 8' antenna mounted at deck
level. This would seem to indicate that mounting the antenna higher is
not necessary. 

    Sorry, i didn't mean to say that height gave better reception.  Just
    that it gets it away from anything that might interfere.  My micrologic
    has a 39" antenae and i foolishly mounted it on the side of the cabin. 
    Right next to my alum canvas frame.  So by getting it up, I'll get it
    away from the sheilding.
    
    Joe

    To add to the discussion about antenna height, it is useful to remember
    that the clear zone around the antenna expands along it's length. (cone
    shaped), i.e., obstacles need to be further away at the tip than they
    do at the base. This is something to consider on sailboats where it is
    sometimes useful to angle the antenna away from the backstay (as well
    as using an extention) so that the cone doesn't intersect the stay. The
    same consideration needs to be given to various other obstructions.
    
    John

   The dealer who installed my VHF radio cut the antenna
   to leave me with only only two feet between the
   radio and the antenna. Someone in this notes file 
   brought up that it is best to have the antenna wire 
   length at some multiple of the wavelength that you 
   will transmit on. 
	
   I installed my Loran unit over the weekend and now 
   need to move my VHF antenna away from the location 
   of the Loran antenna. Since now I have to add coax 
   to do this, what would be the optimum length to add?

     1) should I make the length optimal for channel
	16 to cover emergency situations?
     2) or should I make it a length to fit the middle
        of the spectrum (making it kind of a generic
	length)
     3) or should I make it optimal for the stations
        in the high 60's and mid to lo 70's that I 
	listen to for a fishing reports (whether they are
	true or not)

   I don't travel more than seven or eight mile from shore,
   if that makes a difference.

   Can I use the coax I cut from the Loran unit for the
   VHF? The Loran uses a RG 58A/U and the VHF uses a
   RG 58 SIW B. I imagine they probably won't be 
   interchangable for impedence reasons.

   I understand that the signal from/to VHF and Loran 
   antennas will be impaired by the proximity of metallic 
   objects.  Does that mean whether they are grounded or 
   not?
   
   Steve

re:	<<< Note 58.45 by HEURIS::DEMBA >>>
	-< optimal antenna wire length? >-


It doesn't look like I will get any takers on the
previous note.

I suppose I should have looked at my manual before
I wrote it. So last night when I opened it I 
discovered that the optimal length is the shortest
length possible! Why is that different from Mike
Brophy's or any other unit that recommends not
shortening the wire at all?

	Steve

    re.46
    
       You got me on that one. I KNOW that the length is important
    regarding the wavelength of the signal. It is possible that since the
    frequency of marine VHF is fairly high and that marine VHF antennas are
    built differently that shore-based antennas (Marine antennas must
    provide their own ground plane) that it could be the shortest length of
    cable is still not too short. In ANY case, the impedance of the cable
    if quite important! The best cable is the one with the right impedance
    and the lowest loss per foot.
    
    					Kenny

    If I recall my antenna theory from my days at the UNH Antenna Systems
    Laboratory, a transmission line which is an exact multiple of the
    wavelength (or maybe wavelength over 4 or 2) transfers the impedance of
    the antenna to the transmitter/receiver unchanged, independent of the
    characteristic impedance of the cable itself. In the case of loran,
    at 100 khz, one wavelength is something like 3000 meters, so impedances
    would be matched by other means (line a load coil in the antenna
    coupler).
    
    At higher frequencies, like CB and VHF, taking advantage of a tuned
    length of coax is quite common.
    
    Bill
    

    Steve,
    
       I called Standard Horizon directly about the length question for
     My radio, and antenea combination. I have a standard horizon eclipse
     matched with an 8' shakspeare whip antenea. They told me NOT to cut
     the antenea cable.
    
       Next I called the Apelco service reps and told them my setup, Apelco
     6500 with 8ft shakespeare whip antenea. The responce, go ahead and
     cut it as short as you'd like.
    
       This is what the manufacture reps told me, I tried both out cod
    fishing last weekend and they both worked great.
    
      Hope this helps.
    
       Mike
    
    

      Both ways *can* and likely will work - under *limited* conditions.
    If your antenna (including the wire) is not matched to your transmitter
    properly - you lose output. The amount you lose depends upon how bad
    the mismatch is. There are meters which go in-line with the coax which
    will tell you how well (or how poorly) the antenna and coax are matched
    with your transmitter. Connectors which are even slightly oxidized can
    contribute to this as well.
    
      The bottom line is that even though your set appears to work
    normally, you *may* have less power output than if everything is
    perfect. With marine VHF, there is a reasonable transmit distance so if
    you are out say, only a few miles, you could likely have a very poorly
    matched rig and it would work fine for you.
    
    				Kenny
     

I put in the VHF antenna over the weekend. It is only 2.5+ feet
away from the Loran antenna. I do get some interference when the
Loran is turned on, and also from the fish finder.

I may be able to clear up the noise from the fish finder, cause
the  the dealer used the same power line to feed the radio and
the fish finder. I don't think he user #10 wire either, and there
is about three feet of excess that is coiled up in the console.

The apparent interference from the Loran seems minor, but I
suppose I could have lost some power and not even know it. I
suppose I can just turn off the Loran when I *really* need the
extra power.     

BTW, someone pointed out a differce between RG 58 and RG 58 A/U.
One was 50 ohms and the other was 54. 

The general consensus from this note file and other sources on 
whether VHF signal quality was seriously affected by antenna 
lead length was inconclusive. But responses did lean toward that 
it wasn't that serious for the situation (frequency and distance).
The consensus seemed to be that signal attenuation due to wire 
resistance had a graeter affect.

I wish I could remember some of this from my school days. Though
at the time I never thought I would have any practical use for
the stuff either.

	Steve