Conference vicki::boats

    
    This past weekend the "Ark Royal", a 2.5 Million dollar vessel
    was seized after 1/10 of an ounce of marijuana was found on board.
    
    I predict that this new law will be repealed or modified within
    the next six months.  Its a definate overkill on the governments
    part and I don't see how they can enforce or justify retaining
    a million dollar vessel for $10 worth of drugs.  
                                
    jd/
    

                            <"fun in the sun?">
    
      As per note 4.1 In Burlington Vt. a 16' boat was just confiscated
    due to a "BUD" being found in-between bench seats.  The coast guard
    then found 2 16yr. old boys carrying 2 pipes and a roach-clip..
    No more pot was found,,, this boat was confiscated and the mothjer
    of the two boys will now have to pay (x$) i'm sure to get her boat
    back.  This is creating quite a stir here.... I wonder how this
    will affect lakes like Lake George,, Winnipesaukee???????  it is
    coast
     guard patrolled,,,  is it not ????
    
    
    						Craig Saunders
    						BTO::SAUNDERS

        I wonder why they are messing around with the 'small stuff'?
        I'm sure they would find a lot more drugs if they seized
        a U.S. Aircraft Carrier :-)
        
        /wayne

    Is it illegal in the state of Vermont to have open containers on
    board or was the boat seized do to the pipes and clip??

    TO NOTE 4.4
       The boat was stopped by the Coast Guard for a routine safety
    inspection and while conductiong the inspection, a trace amount
    of marijuana was found between a set of bench seats and a subsequent
    search of the persons involved turned up 2- pipes and a roach-clip.
      There has been no-more word of this,, since the date..... I don't
    think the owner of the boat has it back yet..  No it is not illegal
     to have an open container,, but you can recieve a DWI if you are
    perceived to be operating your boat in a reckless manner......... 
                          and are stopped !!!!

    The C.G. does go after the big guys!! All this small stuff is found
    when other violations are being investigated or routine spot checks
    for safety equipment boardings. Ususally the boater is already doing
    something wrong and then gets caught with the "stuff".
    Sounds to me like a bad egg any way you slice it! The law is really
    quite simple---you got drugs, you loose your boat---no BS !!
    I support these guys 100%! If they let it be known what will happen,
    some "Innocent Owners" (and if you buy that, you REALLY  have your
    head in the sand) might just be more careful about who they
    take on board and what they allow to to happen on their vessel.
    
    It really is getting at the cause---THE USER!

    M. Frasch:  As the law is written, if I place a still in your back
                yard, they can confiscate your land.  Is that fair?
    I do not agree with your argument in .6, and would suspect that
    anybody who carries friends on their boat winds up in violation
    of this assininity at one time or another.
    						John

    re .8  Seems to me that if I had a new ChrisCraft that was ONLY
    83 payments away from being mine, I'd go to almost ANY lengths to
    make sure that no-one brought ANYTHING doubtful aboard.  Hey, wanna
    come aboard ?;  wanna deposit your house deeds as colat. ?; sorry,
    no trip today.  People I KNOW to not do that stuff, maybe OK.

    	R
    

    I'm glad to see that .6 steamed a few other people.

    There is a good article in this month's MOTOR BOATING &
    SAILING.  It points out that this tactic infringes on at
    least two constitutional rights.  1) Your protection against
    unreasonable search and seizure, 2) your right to due
    process.

    If the Coast Guard can't find something better to do with
    their time, then their funding should be cut further.

    	- Lee

re .10:

As I understand it, the US Supreme Court has upheld the
constitutionality of the Coast Guard boarding and searching vessels
without probable cause. 

	Two or three weeks ago I was scanning the cable channels and happened
on the Congressional hearing on the ZERO TOLERANCE policy instituted by the
US Customs and implemented by the Coast Guard.  The people are not the only
ones in an uproar about the tactics.  Fifteen legislators ripped apart the
director of US Customs, comparing him to Hitler among others.  Although the
intent of the action was good, the mechanism was not and therefore there were
almost unanimous outcries to cease and desist.

	It was my understanding (I may be wrong here) that the next day the
Zero Tolerance Policy was recinded.  My understanding is that the Coasties are
now back to ignoring personal use quantities and ceasing the boats only in the
case of quatinties large enough to be considered trafficing.


				Al

     This is one topic that really fries my behind. I couldn't believe
    my ears when I first heard it. It is incomprehensible that the Coast
    Guard, as a government agency, would annihilate constitutional rights
    in such a careless manner. This is obviously another case of election
    year politics. Just last year (or was it the year before?) the big
    issue was drunken driving. Pass a few quick laws to show who's 'tough'
    on drunk driving, and as soon as we're reelected, forget about the
    problem.
    
     My assessment of the drug problem is that the Coast Guard has no
    business whatsoever in the enforcement of drug trafficking laws.
    They are supposed to devote their resources to maintaining the
    navigability and safety of our waterways. While I agree that the
    interdiction of drugs is a necessity, I disagree that we should
    employ the coast guard or the military for this purpose. The problem
    is that you cannot expect to increase the role of the coast guard,
    especially in non-emergency services, while cutting their budget at
    the same time.
    
     The ATF has more business in dealing with the drug problems of
    interdiction etc. than does the CG. More importantly, individual
    rights cannot be infringed upon to stop this menace; otherwise,
    there is no difference between us and every other totalitarian state.
    Get a grip you people who support this nonsense! Are you trying
    to tell me that you can be held responsible for the actions of other
    people? I absolutely guarantee that anybody who has taken out more
    than 10 or 15 people under 50 in the past on their boat has been
    in jeopardy of losing their boat under this policy. If you don't
    believe me, get your head out of the sand!
    
     The drug problem in this country is infinitely more pervasive than
    most of you think (especially those of you over 40). Part of the
    problem is that people like you think 'no, not my kid'... This attitude
    exacerbates the problem. By denying the reality of the pressures
    on youth and adults alike to do drugs, you lose sight of the
    possibility that such use may occur. 
    
     I guess what I'm saying is don't be so accepting of the zero tolerance
    policy- it really could be YOUR boat. And you could be totally
    innocent. You simply cannot be held responsible for the fact that
    one of your passengers did a lousy job of cleaning his weed and
    left a pot seed or stem in his pocket. Because that's all it takes.
    
     The Doctah (who's_rippin'_mad_about_this_one)

    	While I generally do not like to get into debates on the drug 
problem in the country, I am a little disappointed in some of your 
broad statements regarding people and parents over 40.

	First all of all, though I am not yet "over 40" I am 39 and the 
father of two teenage boys, one who is 18 and the other 16.  And while I 
am not one who would say "not my son" I do have enough respect and open 
enough communications with them to be fairly sure that at this point in 
time they are not, or have not used or experimented with drugs.  I 
also have worked with enough field engineers and customers to know 
exactly how pervasive the drug problem is even though I am close to 40.
Keep in mind, it was my "generation" that really began the 
experimentation with drugs in the '60's.  (Ever heard of Timothy Leary, 
he's over 40)

	While I can see your side of the problem, I also see the 
destruction of families and lives that the dealing and use of drugs 
causes.  Perhaps it is the experience of 39 years and being the father 
of teenage boys that causes me to lean toward the approval of stronger 
methods, such as the zero tolerance law, to help to curb the tide of the 
drug problem.

	Also, (just so you understand why I chose to bring this up now)
it really is fishing and boating and sports that is the main reason I 
feel rather secure about my boys.  They have been shown the pros and 
cons of drugs.  Aside from being my sons, they are also my friends with 
whom I spend quality time fishing or boating or hunting or whatever.
They know these things can be taken away if they break the law and that 
would be to high a price to pay.

    Heroin and cocaine kill 4,000 Americans a year...
    Tobacco kills 320,000 anually...
    
    Now, what were we saying about the correct priorities?
    
    Source of figures is Auth, 20 May 1988, in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

    First of all, I was defending people over forty not trying to set
    priorities.  but since you mentioned it
    
    	a. cigarettes are legal
    
    		drugs are not
    
    I will NOT debate pros and cons on that one, simply stating a fact
    
    As as for your figures.. 
    	How many tobacco dealers, transporters and various and sundry
    people involved in the tobacco industry are killed every year.
    I think if you add in the violence in the drug trade (indirect as
    you may think it is) you're numbers would not be so one sided. 
    Believe me, those of us over forty are seeing the effects of drug
    trafficking even out of the cities.  I live in a rural setting and
    the three brothers down the street are distributors.  So far the
    count is two shot and one run off the road at 95 MPH over drug money.
    Now if any innocent people happen to get in the way I don't suppose
    they show up in that death count but they're just as dead.
    
    Sorry guys, I know this doesn't belong in this file. I just felt
    that you might be open to another point of view.  This zero tolerance
    is not as cut and dried as you might expect.
    
    

    I believe the Coast Guard has been employed to halt smuggling since it
    was first formed in 18?? as part of the Dept of the Treasury(!), which
    is where it still exists in the federal govt.
    
    There is a "posse comitatus" law which prevents the military from
    acting as domestic law enforcement. The purpose of the law is to keep
    the military out of domestic affairs. Congress and the President can
    change the law any time they choose, but the law will have to be

    re .16,	I live in rural Vermont.  I quit smoking dope around
                the time I was getting out of college.  I'm 43 or so
    now.  We have the boys around here who grow marijuana, and they
    hassle each other.  As the public hysteria increases, so does the
    level of violence.  We did this whole exercise during prohibition
    and it did not work.
    
    The Coast Guard should stick to safety inspections, maintaining
    aids to navigation, and search and rescue.
    						John

    re .14
    
     Let me clarify myself. My references to age were merely to acknowledge
    the fact that many of the older generations simply did not have
    the exposure to drugs that the current generation does. This does
    not mean that I feel that you necessarily know less about drugs;
    40 was an arbitrary figure chosen because my father is in his mid
    forties, and never had any real exposure to drugs. At some point
    I felt I had to draw a line and say that anybody on the "other side"
    of the line may not know much about drugs.
    
     Despite my relatively young age (25), I also have teenagers (through
    marriage) who I am confident do not use drugs. The peer pressure,
    however, is still there at times. Fortunately, my daughters seem
    to hang out with a crowd that is less tolerant of drug use.
    Congratulations for your excellent relationship with your boys.
    Perhaps if more parents had that type of relationship, the drug
    problem would be less prevalent.
    
     My objection with the Coast Guard being used for this type of
    harrassment has many facets. First of all, due process is insured
    under the constitution. Secondly, personal freedom is infringed
    upon during random stoppings and searchings. Thirdly, this type
    of harrassment is very costly and yet produces minimal tangible
    results. We are wasting precious resources that could be used to
    save lives that are in imminent danger by diverting manpower etc.
    to a high profile yet virtually useless program. Instead of squandering
    the resources we have left in the coast guard budget, why don't
    we re-open some of the CG stations that have been closed as a result
    of the budget cuts.
    
     While I realize that coast guard employees are also customs agents,
    it seems to me that the country would be better served by having
    the coast guard make boating safer and letting specialists take
    care of the drug war. Harrassing the casual user, while appearing
    attractive to the reactionary types, will simply not solve the problem.
    The way to stop the problem is unclear, yet by increasing education
    for youth, we can hope to turn the tide on the growing menace of
    a "spaced-out" America. Drug distribution prevention may also help.
    
     I have heard alot about legalization lately, not just of marijuana,
    but also of other drugs. I have a hard time believing that legalization
    will help with the harder drugs, but am unsure of the impact on
    mary-j. Perhaps by freeing the law enforcement agencies to work
    on the harder drugs, we can make more progress against the real
    problems. Very few people die as a result of the use of pot; nor
    does the drug related violence seem to correlate with such a
    *relatively* low profit drug. Rather, the real problem seems to
    come from drugs like coke, crack, and heroin. Those are the drugs
    that people get addicted to and steal to support the habit of. Those
    are the drugs that people kill each other over the territory. Those
    are the drugs that people overdose on.        
    
     Sorry for the digression. I think priorities are in order. Personal
    freedom should not be abridged to retain or attain political office.
    Due process is important and should not ignored. 
    
     Mark 

    Good thoughts Mark and now I believe we are thinking along the same
    lines.
    I happened to show the boys the notesfile last night to see what
    they thought.  Steve (the older of the two) agrees that zero tolerance
    is a little stringent but he does believe the way to attack the
    problem is to get the users.  This relates back to supply and demand.
    Since there is no real way to cut the supply, you have to stop the
    demand. These are his thoughts not necessarily mine.
    
    I like to make one more point and then I promise to back out!
    Currently there are modern day pirates lurking off some off our
    southern shores that are looking for boats to run drugs with.  The
    scenario is generally to appear to be having engine problems and
    when the victim comes along to help, the boat is taken, and the
    people are left to fend for themselves, sometimes killed.  I have 
    this on good authority who live near and
    who sail the gulf and southern coast of Florida.  If
    the coast guard is not involved in such activities, who will protect
    these waters.  And who is to say the "little" residue left on a
    boat is not from a much larger shipment and that these are not some
    of the people involved in what is downright piracy.
    
    Now watch my keyboard
    
    Again I am not advocating zero tolerance, just trying to VERY CALMLY
    present another possible point of view

     The problems with piracy are very real indeed. My uncle, before
    he died of cancer, was an offshore fisherman in Florida. He had
    a 40 footer, and regularly carried a virtual arsenal in his boat
    because of the pirates. Once, when he was in the Bahamas (I think)
    a group of people in uniforms attempted to board his boat. He wouldn't
    let them; and as soon as he called the coast guard, they bolted.
    Scary thought!
    
     I think that the coast guard intervening in this way is proper
    and falls under the category of "making navigation safer." People
    who murder and or steal should be dealt with accordingly, regardless
    of the purpose of their transgressions. 
    
     While I agree that supply and demand is an issue with the drug
    problem, and that dealing with the end user is also necessary, I
    don't feel that harrassment will do the trick. As we have seen in
    the past, (prohibition) such tactics only serve to undermine our
    trust in and respect for government. The only way to really make
    a dent in the problem is to change attitudes and habits. Having
    the CG harrass boaters is very similar to having troopers harrass
    motorists. There is general disregard for the law, the law is
    ineffectively enforced, and the real problem remains unsolved. The
    only difference I can see is the relative merits of the laws
    themselves; but to go into that here wouls make me stray even 
    further :^}
    
     Mark
    

    
    And for years they blamed it on the Bermuda Triangle, when in
    reality, piracy was the cause of these "disappearing boats and
    people"....
    
    I agree that Project Zero Tolerance causes citizens to lose
    respect for the law.  The U.S. has a problem with users and
    dealers.....legalize drugs and we'll just have just the users, 
    and a lot of tax $$$.
        
    Peter Jennings had an interesting special on this week.  The
    message the dealers were giving out was that "Crime Does Pay"
    18 year olds were pulling in $10,000 per day....
    
    Jeanne
    

    	Lets not just pick on the little Guy, let the C.G. start
    checking all the Navy,s ships, the C.G. could have all the
    Boats they need and they wouldn't have to ask Congress for
    any  more Money.

    There is an interesting article on zero tolerance in the
    August issue of YACHTING.  To paraphrase the first two
    paragraphs, if you are arrested on a New York street with
    less than one ounce of marijuana you risk a fine of $100. If
    you happen to be a short distance away on a boat in New York
    harbor, you risk the seizure and loss of your boat as a fine.

    Regardless of the merits of stopping drug use at the user, if
    your boat is worth more than $100, you may find the disparity
    of the fines unjust.

    I suppose the 'flip-side' is that if your boat is worth less
    than $100, zero tolerance is an excellent policy.

    	- Lee

    hey bro...you got NO way of KNOWING what your friend has in his
    pockets!so you "advice" on being more "careful"...just won't work
    buddy...doesn't work on "COPS" when they pull someone over in a car..if
    the driver has contraband..the passenger doesn't take the fall.
    
                                               jus my 2cents thank you...