Conference 7.286::dcu

    I recently received a pre-approved application for the highly touted
    AT&T card.  Yes, they did promise no annual fee for life, however, the
    interest rate was X percent above prime.  If the prime stays the same
    on their next adustment period, the interest rate would be 16.4%.

    It has been pointed out that many, if not all, DCU actions get slammed
    here, but...
    
    set mode/skeptic
    
    Why was this increase in credit limits done now?
    If all accounts were increased, does that make good business sense?
    Who decided to do this?
    
    I know, I know, if I really want to know, write the DCU and ask.  I'd
    rather just vote, and put the current DCU (methods) behind me.
    
    Apparently, non-gold, went from $1000 to $1500.
    
    SET MODE/waiting
    
    Mark

    Is it the season for limit increases?  Another gold card I have just
    notified me that my limit was increased $1,200.
    
    Bob

    Mine went to $9000, they said that we manage our money in an eceptional
    manor and pay off our bill in a timely fashion.
    
    Did anybody else get this speal.
    Dave
    

    I got the credit limit increase too ...

    However, I would have been more impressed if DCU had either lowered the
    overall interest rate or dropped the card fee entirely.

    I belong to another credit union that has given me a card with no
    annual fee and a 13.8% interest rate.  AND they offered to give me a 5%
    rebate ($100 max) if I used their card to pay off any other
    MASTERCARD/VISA balances.

    Of the 3 cards I have, the DCU VISA is the most expensive in terms of
    fees and interest rates ... unless that changes, when renewal time
    comes around again, I'll terminate my DCU VISA account.

    FWIW,
    - Mike

My gold card limit was also raised from $5k to $7k.  They said some stuff about
how great I was, but I don't know if it was the same stuff they told the
folks who were raised to $9k.

<humor on>

My theory is that last year I was able to avoid the yearly fee by having at
least $7k worth of purchases for the year, which surprised me (they don't give
you a running total on your statements, but that point is moot now that they
have removed this method of fee waiving). I paid off my bill in full each month.
Now, if I had made those $7k worth of purchases during the first month of the
year and paid off the charges throughout the year, I could have used those
purchases all year, and DCU would have made a lot of money :-)

<humor off>

Actually, I might not be very far off; they could've raised the limits to
promote more spending.  Not that I needed a $7k credit limit in order to do
more spending, but...

Jill

    I just canceled my VISA due to the fact I missed the magic number for
    spending and they charged me a fee.  I guess they would rather have no
    purchases!

    I really don't understand why it cost more to have a gold VISA rather
    than a plain VISA card from DCU.  I could see no discernible
    level of difference in the two.  Anyway, I will now use one of the
    three other cards that I have, that have no fee's and a lower interest
    rate.

    By the way DCU did send my wife a note and tell her not to use the
    card anymore, because I had canceled it.

Last fall, the "new benefit" for VISA was to not be charged a fee if you
"charged $6000 within the yead" (to the best of my recollection).

Now, you must "maintain an outstanding loan balance of $6000 or
$3500  in savings (CD's I don't have the "new benefits" message 
with me).


Yes, they increased my limit also.  Gee it's still my LOWEST gold card
(I acquired all that I currently carry at approximately the same time)
with the Highest interest.  Sigh,  I guess I need to take my VISA business
elsewhere.  I have been hanging on, hoping they would come to their
senses.


Bill

    >I really don't understand why it cost more to have a gold VISA rather
    >than a plain VISA card from DCU.  I could see no discernible
    >level of difference in the two.  Anyway, I will now use one of the
    >three other cards that I have, that have no fee's and a lower interest
    >rate.
    
    My *GUESS* is that you get more services from the Gold card.  Extended
    warrenty etc...  is it worth it?  That is your call.
    
    	- mark

    re .6
    
    Remember also that the Visa issuer typically rakes in 1-2% of your
    total purchases (albeit from the vendor, but that's ultimately passed
    on to you), so $7k per year in charges netted the DCU $70-$140
    just for the priviledge of you using their DCU-issued card.  If you
    maintain the balance to avoid the annual fee, or pay their annual
    fee, that's just extra topping on their dessert! 
        

    
    Where do you get the 13.8% VISA?
    
    cbc

I suspect that on some of the cards with great interest rates, that you don't go
shopping for them, they come shopping for you.

First Banks has a line of credit (via checks, but the checks don't have a
cash advance charge - the only restriction is the check must be written for
more then $250) & a credit card (don't remember if it was MC or VISA) that
currently is sitting at 9.6%  (floats around every month based on the prime).
I did not find this offer, it found me.

Depending on how you look at it, the only real "drawback" is they have a
more aggressive repayment schedule (4% of balance).

--Scott

>================================================================================
>Note 513.11                     VISA IMPROVEMENTS                       11 of 11
>JANDER::CLARK                                         4 lines  31-MAR-1992 10:13
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                      -< DCU still beats my other cards >-
>
>    
>    Where do you get the 13.8% VISA?
>    
>    cbc

    USAA is at 12.5%.  Free standard card, which can go up to $25,000.
    
    	- mark

re .-1

  Hmm... Mine came a week or so ago and was 13.8.  Must have dropped again ;-.]

    My VISA is through Security Service Federal Credit Union here in
    Colorado Springs.  I dropped off the application on a Saturday, they
    called me on the following Monday to say it was approved.  I received
    the card about 1 week later.

    I also have a MASTERCARD from New Mexico Educators Federal Credit Union
    which offers about a 14% rate (they just dropped the rate again). 
    Also, NMEFCU does not charge an annual fee (and none of those games
    about maintaining an outstanding loan or deposit balance).

    I know this isn't the right note for this, but since I'm taking about
    other CUs .... I also have my auto loan from NMEFCU.  At the time
    (about 2 years ago), they offered the loan at 2 points lower than DCU,
    would let me finance more of the purchase, and approved the loan during
    a 30 minute visit when I completed the application with a loan officer.
    All this after I had just joined the credit union with only about $50
    in my account.  Since then, they have dropped the interest rate on the
    auto loan 3 times - it's now about a point and a half lower than when I
    started.  NMEFCU will also let me take a "personal computer" loan for
    100% of purchase price at an 11.5% rate.

    'nuff said.

    
    RE: .16
    
    Thanks for the comparison.  Amazing what a real credit union is
    capable of doing for the membership given the correct leadership.

    
    Leadership is fine Phil, 
    where are the results.
    
    cbc

    
>    Leadership is fine Phil, 
>    where are the results.
    


Yep.

A short honeymoon.

al

Re: Last few

Yow! These people must think the BOD goes to the DCU every morning and runs 
the place. Folks, they only meet once a month! Everything isn't going to be 
fixed overnight. Give them a chance!

regards,

Jim

Please give them a chance.  The board meets once a month and so far has met
once (I believe.) m I'd love to reactivate my Visa card, but I need to give the
DCU a chance to churn first.

BobW

>================================================================================
>Note 513.18                     VISA IMPROVEMENTS                       18 of 19
>JANDER::CLARK                                         5 lines  28-MAY-1992 11:43
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                           -< NEW BoD is very quiet >-
>
>    
>    Leadership is fine Phil, 
>    where are the results.
>    
>    cbc
>

    
    Re: .18
    
    Chill out, cbc.  It will take time for them to start making changes.
    They've got to get the lay of the land first and no one wants them
    camping out at the DCU meddling with it day in and day out.
    
    Steve
    

    
    Well it has been a month+ where is the progress report?
    
    cbc

Note 513.23 by JANDER::CLARK
    
>    Well it has been a month+ where is the progress report?

It took the previous BOD over a year to implement many of their programs.
It is very likely that it will take 6 months or more to undo what has been
undone.

You should keep on top of the BOD NEW and OLD, but give them time
to undertsnad learn and change.  

	- mark

	But, but on TV they fix everything in the latter half of an hour! :-)

			Alfred

	A status report wouldn't be a bad idea, if only so we have an idea
	of what areas are being currently looked into. That way we can
	rattle cages if things are being addressed in the wrong order :-)


						Tom_K

    
    Honeymoon???
    
    These people didn't even get their first kiss!!
    

    I agree with giving them time, but their communications are deafening.
    where are they?
    
    like good engineers, we could have an action plan, requirements doc,
    and project plan with schedules.
    ed

    One point I would like to make ... I agree that time must be given for
    the new Board to enact any changes.  We need to voice our concerns and
    needs to them am let them do what we elected them to do.  I guess the
    problem comes when we have all seen a very high level of communication
    before the election.  I know it was my expectation that that level be
    maintained.  Communications is key, especially in this medium.
    
    Lastly, the point about the BOD meeting once a month ... I have been on
    many Boards and the Board meets at its own discretion.  There is
    usually a minimum level of meetings set, but if there is such a large
    transition and a catching up needed, there is no limit on the number of
    meetings that can be called to get the job done.  The new BoD has a
    tremendous task ahead of them and I commend them for being willing to
    take on this challenge but let's not make excuses for them ... they are
    going to run into too many real barriers.

    
    
      My flight instructor used to say:
    
      "To every complex problem,  there is a simple solution - and it's
    	wrong..."
    
      He also used to say:
    
      "There is seldom a situation so urgent that immediate action is more
    	important than correct action."
    
      
      I'd much prefer to let the new board get acquainted with their
    new responsibilities,  and have some time to study the problems 
    they have inhereted,  before taking any action.
    
      Like writing software - it's probably much more fun to jump in
    and start  coding,   but I'd much prefer to give them
    time to do the up-front design work before expecting a flurry
    of activity.
    
    
    						-al

    
    Wow! 
    
    We are currently in 1.5 DAYS of meeting and orientation to come up to
    speed on what is in place and the current condition of DCU.  Our next
    BoD meeting is tonight.  Hopefully there will be good news to report
    back after that meeting.
    
    Charlie, Chuck and Ed, if you had elected me DCU czar I would have
    already made many visible changes at DCU.  However, I am part of a 7
    person Board that works with the DCU management team to effect change. 
    DCU does not and cannot turn on a dime as much as I would like it to.
    
    Gotta go, meeting starts soon.

    thanks for checking in Phil.
    ed
    

    
    Thanks Phil.
    
    cbc

     
    	I was charged a $5.00 late fee because my payment was two days late. I 
    did not miss a payment it was two days late. I called DCU and the lady
    was helpful and professional and said she would waiver the late charge
    as it was late but said all payments are due the 10th of the month.
    	I thought it was a law you can't charge a late fee in Mass. Anyone
    know for sure or was it just a dream? Any thoughts on the late fee?
    	Other cards i have just charge you intrest on the balance and one
    gives me the option of skiping a payment.
    	I seldom carry a balance on my DCU card but I have a monthly charge
    from a sports club on it so they get a check every month. $5.00 is a
    bit stiff for my tastes. Any thoughts?
    
    	Jay
    
    

       I always thought the Mass law was a 15 day grace period. I've heard
    this even applies if the credit card co. is in another state. As long
    as you live in Mass. that's the law. Give Consumer Affairs in Boston a
    call. Should be listed under Comm. of Mass.
    
                                   Denny

    	Read your credit agreement.  Most any major credit card charges
    	a late fee.  Another VISA that I have charges $15 if it is 
    	more than 15 days after the due date.
    
    	I believe DISCOVER charges a late fee too.  I think the grace
    	period on that is 15 days as well.  (Interestingly enough, they 
    	give you a 10 day grace period after the due date to still pay
    	off the balance and not be charged interest!)
    
    	$5 is relatively low for a late fee charge.

    
    
      re an earlier reply
    
      I believe late fee's _are_  illegal under Mass state law.
    
    
    						-al
    

I think they may be illegal for institutions subject to state law. However,
my understanding is that for federal institutions subject to federal law,
late fees are legal. There will be something in the BoD minutes
about late fees that I will be posting shortly.

    FWIW, a Visa card that I have with another CU levies a late fee and a
    fee for exceeding the credit limit.

Oh yes, and it's my understanding that paying late costs DCU because of
manual handling of accounts that are late. So, the question is whether the
membership as a whole should split the cost of somebody paying late, or
should the person paying late be charged a fee? It seems reasonable to
pass this fee to the individual member, but I'd be open to alternative ideas.

    
    RE:38	The Federal law overiding the State law I can understand.
    
    RE:40	As for added costs i find that hard to belive. This is for
    		a payment just two days late. No collection involved and
    		the account was up to date till that point. I do belive
    		in paying for your own sins and this was my fault i just
    		thoughjt it to much. I for one don't want to pay for any-
    		one else being late with a payment. If someone is late
    		all the time then by all means make them pay if its costing
    		the group as a whole.
    
    		I have been trying to call Mass. Consumer Affairs since
    		after lunch but its been busy. Will keep trying.
    
    		Jay
    		  

>	So, the question is whether the
>	membership as a whole should split the cost of somebody paying late, or
>	should the person paying late be charged a fee? 

	For some things, like checking accounts, the membership has pretty
	much indicated that there is a consensus for all members to
	absorb the costs incurred by some members who's use of a checking
	account costs DCU money. So there is precedent.

	In this case, I don't think that precedent should be followed. The
	checking account "subsidy" occurs in the reasonable use of the 
	checking account. Paying a credit card late isn't a reasonable
	use, and hence, ought not to be subsidized by the membership at
	large...

					Tom_K

�    RE:40	As for added costs i find that hard to belive. This is for
�    		a payment just two days late. No collection involved and
�    		the account was up to date till that point. 
    
    Didn't you say that DCU cut you some slack and waived the late fee this
    time?  

    Why do late payments have to be handled any more manually than on-time
    payments?  I can understand that when a human must finally pick up a
    phone to call (either the delinquent payer or the collection agency),
    but the first step is usually a computer-generated letter.
    
    I guess I just don't understand the process.

Perhaps I'd better find out the details. My (possibly partial) understanding
is that there is a threshold date that if you pay before that day (I don't
know what that is) then it doesn't cost DCU anything. If you pay after
that date, somebody has to look at your account and decide what to do. I'll
look into it...

	Deciding what to do may not be something that is easily programmed.
	For example, Bill and Mary generally have a balance of
	$250 +- $50. Sue and Roger generally have a balance of
	$1,000 +- $50.

	Suddenly, Bill has a balance of $1,000 that is late, it bears 
	looking into. If Sue has the same late balance, it might not
	be worth looking into, since that balance is normal for her, and the 
	mail may just be late. Similarly, if Mary's payment is late, again,
	it probably isn't worth looking into, since that balance is consistent
	with her history. And if Roger's balance goes to $2,000, and is late,
	again, you probably want to look into it. The cutoffs of all this
	is probably fuzzy, and not easily programmed.

	Is the above reasoning correct?

					Tom_K

    
    	Yes they did and i'm grateful for that. In fact I was very pleased
    with the service. The lady i spoke to was as nice and polite as you 
    could expect. Also she offered to recind the late fee and it was not
    because i was refusing to pay it. Now thats what i call keeping the
    customer happy. This for me was a positive exsperiance with DCU. I
    learned something about my credit card i was not aware about-I'am
    checking the two others i have and I won't be missing or making
    late payments again. I still however think late fee's on top of
    high intrest rates are a bit much.
    
    	Jay
    

�I still however think late fee's on top of
�    high intrest rates are a bit much.
    
    Well, you are using their money and under their terms.  You signed an
    agreement that said you would make payments by a specified date each
    month.  The fees are a way for them to enforce that agreement, short of
    just pulling the card and calling the entire balance due.

Interest rates are proportional to (among other things) the risk. For
instance, a home mortgage is much safer than unsecured credit like
on a credit card. The high interest rate is "payment" for the higher
risk and inevitably greater losses on credit cards.

I got some data back from DCU. Without going into intensive detail, my
understanding now of the way it works is as follows...

The day after the due date reports get generated and some manual handling
of the late account happens. If the payment is some number more days late, it's
handed over to the collections department and then it's even more
costly. The late fee is to help cover the extra handling costs so that
the person causing the extra costs gets charged the fee. I think the fee
is a compromise so they don't have the extra complexity of a multi-tiered
cost structure.

This gets back to philosophy as TomK in .42 noted - what costs should the
membership as a whole split vs what costs should be paid by the
person causing the costs.

The cost due to the late payment is not linear - it's more of a step
function. Pay before this date and there is no extra cost to DCU. Pay
after the due date and there are extra costs. Passing some of this
cost thru to the member sounds reasonable to me.

    	I talked to Consumer Affairs office for the state of Mass. and they
    told me "Late Fee's" are against the law in Mass. However they said if
    an account is ninty days overdue you can be charged a late fee. The
    State of Mass has taken Sears to court on this this and won the the
    first round. Sears is appealing. If i'am not mistaken chanel 5 did 
    a week on consumer protection not to long ago and thats what i based
    my info on. Its also against the law to ask for ones telephone # when
    writing a check in Mass.
    
    	Jay

    Most credit cards use the past due date as a flag to begin charging
    their exhorbitant interest on ALL new purchases (no grace period) if
    the balance is nonzero.  You would think would be enough of an
    incentive for the card issuer to pay YOU the $5 to miss it.  -kb

     	Made a mistake! Its against the law to ask for a credit card number
    when writing a check in Mass. not your telephone number. The store may
    ask to see a credit card but they can not write the card number down
    anywhere.
    
    	Jay

.50>  The cost due to the late payment is not linear - it's more of a step
.50>  function. Pay before this date and there is no extra cost to DCU. Pay
.50>  after the due date and there are extra costs. Passing some of this
.50>  cost thru to the member sounds reasonable to me.
    
    Sounded like it's actually a series of step functions of arbitrary
    value.  Trying to define what's fair and reasonable, or most reasonable
    and fairest, seems difficult.
    
    Having heard my wife grumbling about credit card accounts that really
    give only a few days to pay, between mailing after the statement date
    and closing the payment due date well before the next statement date,
    I'm not sold that a harsh penalty for the first step is reasonable or
    fair.  Applying the same penalty to a payment that's weeks late as for
    one that a day or two late on an account that gives a couple of weeks
    to pay (I know we have some like that, not sure if DCU is among them)
    would not seem right to me.
    
    It was pointed out that the interest rates charged reflect the risk of
    the account.  Another way of saying that is that they reflect the cost of
    servicing the accounts, including such things as printouts of late
    accounts.  
    
    If one single fee is applied to recover costs that are actually a
    multiple step function, it seems reasonable to me that the first (and
    smallest) step might not incur that fee.  Rather, the fee should be set
    and applied to those accounts taking the next, larger, step in costs,
    with the fee set so that it also helps recover the total cost of the
    first step (not just the cost for that specific account).  Note that
    this is not intended to be punitive, just a means of shifting cost
    recovery onto those who are most responsible for the cost.

    
    I believe the grace period for payment is quite a bit more than a few
    days.  The standard seems to be 25 days.  Allowing 4 days for the U.S.
    mail on each end still gives over 2 weeks.
    
    Also, I don't believe $5 to be harsh.  IMO, it's a bit trivial and
    about the lowest I've seen.  Many cards have $15 late fees.  I'm not
    sure it's valid to assume all card holders are going to be late and
    adjust rates to cover it. 
    

    Well I got a waived late fee and then in a subsequent month a
    imposition of a $1.94 interest charge for having a ??non-zero?? balance
    or something. 
    
    Not a good deal. So I tossed my DCU card on the dresser until my
    balance shows as zero for a couple of months and I'm using another
    card. I'm sure I'll get back my grace period.
    
    Any DCU managements types that are listening pay note that the $1.94
    in interest has cost you $60 in merchant fees (based on 3% and my usual 
    $1000/mo).
    
    Just tell me what the rules are so I can follow them, don't continue to
    change.
    
    
    Tom
    

    Sounds like they waived the late fee, but charged the interest owed
    because the payment wasn't made on time.

        Re: .51
        
>    	I talked to Consumer Affairs office for the state of Mass. and they
>    told me "Late Fee's" are against the law in Mass. However they said if
>    an account is ninty days overdue you can be charged a late fee. The
>    State of Mass has taken Sears to court on this this and won the the
>    first round. Sears is appealing. If i'am not mistaken chanel 5 did 
>    a week on consumer protection not to long ago and thats what i based
>    my info on. Its also against the law to ask for ones telephone # when
>    writing a check in Mass.
        
From: [email protected] ( ddh )
Newsgroups: clari.local.massachusetts.briefs
Subject: Massachusetts Second News in Brief [Aug 7]
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 92 3:15:51 PDT

	-7-
 (latefee)
	(BOSTON)- The First U-S Circuit Court of Appeals has overturned a
lower court decision... ruling that out-of-state banks CAN charge
Massachusetts credit-card holders late fees. The appeals court said
yesterday that federal banking laws take precedence over the state
consumer protection laws under which the fees were declared illegal by a
federal District Court judge. That judge... William Young... ruled last
year that a 1990 federal law that bars states from limiting interest
rates charged by out-of-state credit-card companies did NOT apply to
late fees or other charges. The appeals court... however... said that
federal law holds otherwise. There's NO immediate indication if the
state attorney general will appeal.
	-7-
	UPI-Boston

    This seems like the best place to put this...
    
    The insert in this month's statement says "FREE VISA"
    	No Annual Fee
    	(various other features)
    
    No caveats are listed!
    
    This is great news.
    
    Rich

   On Monday, July 3rd, I purchased a service and went to charge the service with my
   DCU Visa card.  It was declined -- twice!  I was extremely embarrassed to have the
   fact that my credit card  "was declined" in a room full of customers, and also asked
   if I had some way to pay for the service I had just had performed.  Luckily for me, I
   was carrying enough cash to cover the charge (usually I do not, and I also wanted to
   use the cash for something else, which I could not).

   I rushed home and called the DCU.  Nobody to answer -- everyone on a two day holiday.
   I called the special number for reported lost or stolen DCU credit cards -- I let the phone
   ring for several minutes -- no answer.  What a frustrating situation, wondering what has
   happened as to why your credit card has been shut off, when you know there is no reason
   why it should have happened.

   Today (5-JUL-1995) I called the DCU.  I was told there was a processor problem that
   effected DCU Visa.  I have had a Citibank Visa for 8 years and never had a single
   problem.  I was thinking about getting rid of my Citibank Visa.  I am now going to
   cancel my DCU Visa instead.  I guess that if I want service that it going to be there
   when I need it, the DCU is not the choice.  

   Ken Patterson
  

Hmmm, that explains what happened to me on Monday.  I had used my
DCU "pseudo-VISA" (the one that really comes right out of my checking 
account) several times on Monday, and it was rejected once.  Fortunately,
the clerk ran it through a second time and it was accepted.

Problems like that can happen to anyone.  Just 'cause it hasn't happened
to you with Citibank yet doesn't mean that it never will.  The best thing
might be to keep both of them so if one of them has a glitch you have
something to fall back on.

-Hal

    
    Another input - I had a similar occurence about 5-6 months ago. Same
    reason given...

<<< Note 513.60 by POWDML::eisg02.mso.dec.com::KPATTERSON >>> -< DCU VISA NEEDS
IMPROVEMENT >-

On Monday, July 3rd, I purchased a service and went to charge the service with
my DCU Visa card.  It was declined -- twice!  I was extremely embarrassed to
have the fact that my credit card  "was declined" in a room full of customers,
and also asked if I had some way to pay for the service I had just had
performed.  Luckily for me, I was carrying enough cash to cover the charge
(usually I do not, and I also wanted to use the cash for something else, which I
could not).

I rushed home and called the DCU.  Nobody to answer -- everyone on a two day
holiday. I called the special number for reported lost or stolen DCU credit
cards -- I let the phone ring for several minutes -- no answer.  What a
frustrating situation, wondering what has happened as to why your credit card
has been shut off, when you know there is no reason why it should have happened.

Today (5-JUL-1995) I called the DCU.  I was told there was a processor problem
that effected DCU Visa.  I have had a Citibank Visa for 8 years and never had a
single problem.  I was thinking about getting rid of my Citibank Visa.  I am now
going to cancel my DCU Visa instead.  I guess that if I want service that it
going to be there when I need it, the DCU is not the choice.  

Ken Patterson
  

    Same problem a few weeks back with a Citibank division Visa card ...
    again, very embarassing ... but DCU is not alone on this.  It's even
    more frustrating when it's below the $50 limit they used to have for
    not doing authorizations.
    
    Stuart

Even if the "lost or stolen" number had answered, they couldn't help you.  I
know - as I once called them for this purpose.  That number serves only as
a clearinghouse for lost/stolen card info and does not connect you to DCU.
They did provide me with DCU's number - I then found out the hotel I was
staying at had put a $1300 hold against my account which brought me over my
limit.

Unfortunately for most credit card issuers, they don't have people available
24x365 to answer "why was my card declined" questions.

Most merchants can't be bothered to use the backup of calling the processing
center - though that may not always be helpful.

I think screwups like this are a good reason for being defensive and carrying
a "backup" card from another bank - pick a no-fee card with a grace period,
the interest rate doesn't matter.

				Steve

    It's only happen to me with the dcu card.  happen on vacation.  yes, it
    is very embarassing.  and they want us to trust them with our money.
    ya, right.  just like I trust them with the debit card.
    there are some things that people take quit seriously.
    ed
    

    I had it happen a few years back with a different non-DCU card too ...
    These problems can occur with virtually any card, so I think anyone
    being tough on DCU alone is being a little unfair.
    
    It turned out that the one that failed on me recently was actually due
    to a problem with the multi-bank VISA clearing house ... nothing to do
    with Citibank.
    
    Apparently too, if there is a comms failure between the swipe machine
    and the clearing house, some of the swipe machines can treat this the
    same as a denial.
    
    Bottom line is that because all retailers seem to love to swipe cards
    for all transactions, the data centers that process these
    authorizations are getting swamped and the technology isn't necessarily
    keeping up.
    
    Just think, every time your card is swiped, the card number gets sent
    down a phone wire, complete with exp. date.  A dishonest phone phreak
    could soon rack up a heap of card numbers complete with exp. dates.
    
    We put a lot of trust in the technology ... but things can and do go
    wrong with it ... I think it is important to remember that ... and in
    this case, DCU is on one end of the technology connection.
    
    Stuart