Conference 7.286::dcu

    
    Interesting - who does DCU think they are, discriminating against those
    of us who have their mail delivered at a secure Post Office box rather
    than at a rural box waiting to be pilfered or damaged?
    
    Next thing you know, they will be discriminating against those with
    unlisted phone numbers.
    
    Maybe I ought to asked for an unlisted account?
    
    (If I had kept my rural route box, they would have been hopelessly
    confused, because both my mailing address and telephone would have
    been out of a neighboring town instead of the one in which I really
    reside. Humph - then, I suppose DCU would have claimed I was trying
    to deceive them. What a bunch of city slickers and flat-landers...)
    
    

I had a horrible run-in with DCU over P.O. Boxes.

One Christmas season, someone decided to take delivery of my mail.  If I wasn't
home when it arrived (and I rarely was on a weekday), it'd get stolen, and all
the "boring" stuff (like bills) would get distrubuted around the neighborhood.
Naturally, neither the local post office nor the police were at all interested.

Anyway, I got a P.O. Box and had all my mail sent there.  That's when the problem
with DCU set in.

They told me that I couldn't have an ATM card when my primary address was a P.O.
Box, but the reason kept changing every time I talked to someone.  The one that
they kept giving me was security reasons:  That they couldn't trust that I'd
receive the mail at a P.O. Box, whereas they were sure that I'd be the only
one getting it if it were received at my house. (!)

After several lessons in how often you see people picking locks in P.O. Box
lobbies, and what happened to a whole Christmas season's worth of presents, not
to mention at least one DCU statement, I got them to see my point (but not back
down).

We finally agreed that if they kept my actual home address on file, they'd let 
me have both a P.O. Box mailing address and an ATM card.  They told me they'd 
send me the appropriate forms in the mail.

The forms I received were those used to close out all my DCU accounts.  I 
suppose I should have taken that as some sort of a hint, but I didn't.  For
some reason, I kept after it, and finally talked to the right person back at
DCU headquarters who managed to get everything straight.

After that, I had no more problems until I tried to order another batch of
checks.  Or, maybe it was the other way around (first hassle was with checks,
second was with the ATM card), but I forget.

Eventually, it all got straightened out.  I was allowed to keep my P.O. Box
address, my checks and my ATM card.  I just never understood why it had to be
such a big deal.

    
    
      Hmmm - that's odd...
    
      I switched from a "regular street address"  to a P.O. box when
    I moved a few years ago.  I filled out the "change of address cards"
    DCU supplied.  Everything was fine -nobody complained at all that
    I no longer had a street address on file. (Maybe they just
    kept the old one?)
    
    
    							-al
    

	They're still doing this?  Interesting.  Until the begining of this
year, I used a P. O. Box as my primary address.  I moved around a bit, and
didn't want to bother telling everyone I corresponded with, every time.  Also,
some of the places I lived didn't have postal delivery.  DCU had issued me an
ATM card with no questions when I first opened my accounts in 1984.  Sometime
in 1989, I got a letter from them saying that they didn't have my street address
on file - just the P. O. Box, and if I didn't give them my street address, they
wouldn't replace the ATM card that was about to expire.

	I sent them back a letter, describing their letter as "capricious and
rude, particularly from a member-owned organisation to one of its members"
(If only I'd known what was to come!), and telling them I had no intention of
giving them my street address.  I got a call from someone, who explained that
since they weren't hooked up to the network, using their ATM card in a non-DCU
ATM would allow a withdrawal of $200 per day, regardless of account balance, and
they wanted the street address in case they had to send someone to reposses the
card in case I mis-used it.  I found this reason insulting, and told them so.
I continued to refuse to give them my address.  They suggested that instead of
sending the card to me, they'd send it to my normal branch.  Since I deal with
the people at my normal branch regularly, they know me, and could make whatever
arrangements they wanted to satisfy them before giving me the card.  Having had
nothing but good experiences with the people in the ZKO DCU branch, I said that
was fine.  A few days later the ZKO branch called me to tell me that they had
my ATM card.  I walked down and picked it up, no questions asked.

	Since, then, DCU has joined the network, in that your account balance
shows up when you make a withdrawal at a non-DCU ATM.  This invalidates the
flimsy reason they'd given me for this practice, so I find it interesting that
they're still doing it.

Mark

The last two times I had to change my address, I was told that the
address on file had to be a street address, but it didn't have to be
my residence address.  It just so happens that my mailing address IS a
street address, but it's not where I live; it's the address of the local
Mail Boxes Etc. store.


re .1

>    Next thing you know, they will be discriminating against those with
>    unlisted phone numbers.

(Please pardon this aside from DCU discussions.)  Casinos in Atlantic
City  already do discriminate against people unpublished phone numbers. 
If you want to establish credit at a casino there, you have to give them
your telephone number which they can verify with directory assistance. 
(Actually, it's an unPUBLISHed number which can't be verified, not
unLISTed.)  It was no use telling them that I *NEVER* answer my listed
number, and I was giving them a number where I could actually be
reached.  No matter, the rules are the rules.  They wanted the listed
number.  Okay, my listed number is no secret--I gave it to them.

Dave C.

    
    When I moved last July, I setup a P.O. Box and gave it out since I knew
    that I would be moving again in December.  I had no problem with DCU
    using this as my mailing address.
    

I moved 14 months ago and don't have a mailbox and started using just a P.O. box.
I also gave DCU a change of address card with no problems. Until my card came up
for renewal. They said they absolutely had to have my street address. I told them
what good is it when I don't have a mailbox and the U.S. mail won't deliver
anything to my house? They said quite arrogantly "we know better" or some such
trash.

Since I only use DCU for the checking account for paying my monthly bills, I
never really use the ATM card anyhow. So I told "fine, screw you, you ain't
getting my street address". This is purely out of principle by the way. They
have a bullshit policy that makes no sense.

Lo-and-behold, about 6 months after I ignored their letters for my street
address, what pops up in my P.O. box? My new ATM card. You figure. The DCU just
likes to hassle people. Apparently they have nothing better to do!

-Glenn-

    It's worth noting that within ten miles of DCU headquarters are some
    smaller towns where people who live near the post office get no
    delivery to their homes.  This is a longstanding rule of at least
    thirty years.  Instead, people in the town center (or wherever the P.O.
    is located) have P.O. boxes.  The rest of the town gets rural delivery.
    
    Now, another small-town tradition is that the local post office will
    get the mail to the right box even if it only carries a street address. 
    However, with increasing mechanization, this courtesy is disappearing. 
    The change is causing turmoil for local organizations with regular
    mailings, people who write each other infreqently, and for publishers
    of local phone books.  Postmasters with dwindling staffs have little
    choice but to insist on the "correct address" rule.
    
    Surely DCU is aware of US Postal Service policy...
    
    Wes

    Does the policy have anything to do with having a legal address on
    file, in addition to a mailing address?  It would seem a simple matter
    to differentiate between the two.  I doubt that this is simply a matter
    of where to send your mail, though.  I also suspect there is another
    reason for them to require a street address in addition to a PO box. 
    As a shareholder, I sure as hell would not want *my* credit union
    making *my money* available to folks who would only offer a PO box as a
    mailing address, any more than I would do business with *any* company
    that has (or is unwilling to provide) a permanent address.  A street 
    address is an indication of a level of stability, IMO, and I applaud the 
    DCU policy of requiring one.  I do not support the popular view that this 
    is harassment in any form.
    
    But then, it seems I rarely agree with the SMAUG::DCU "popular view".  
    
    8-).
    

    This was explained to me several years ago.  If your financial
    institution delivers your ATM card to a P.O. Box and you claim you
    didn't get the card, _they_ have some liability that they wouldn't have
    had if they had sent to your home street address.  Now this was in the
    days when they first sent your PIN through the mail and then sent your
    card to the same address. 
    
    "They" claimed that virtually anybody could gain access to your P.O.
    Box.  I guess my mail-box-on-a-pole-in-the-front-yard-with-no-lock is a
    lot safer ?????  Yeah, that's it.
    
    Steve

    Re: .9
    
    >> Does the policy have anything to do with having a legal address on
    >> file, in addition to a mailing address?  It would seem a simple matter
    >> to differentiate between the two.
    
    If the DCU kept two addresses on file, one a "legal" address and one a
    mailing address, I believe that would have solved the problems
    indicated in the earlier notes.  It appears from the earlier notes,
    however, that the DCU was unwilling or unable to do that.  Or the
    DCU staff didn't know it was possible.
    
    >> As a shareholder, I sure as hell would not want *my* credit union
    >> making *my money* available to folks who would only offer a PO box as a
    >> mailing address, any more than I would do business with *any* company
    >> that has (or is unwilling to provide) a permanent address.
    
    The situations aren't comparable.  The DCU knows that the person works
    for Digital, and that is far more of an indication of a stable income
    than any residence address. The primary concern is whether or not the
    person pays his bills, and that cannot be determined from his address;
    it can be determined by his Digital employment and his credit rating,
    neither of which requires a "legal" address.  Note that the DCU would
    have been willing to take the address of a rent-by-the-week hotel
    simply because they are unable to tell a "stable" address from an
    unstable one.  Therefore the address is not a significant indication of
    stability.
    
    >> I do not support the popular view that this  is harassment in any
    >> form.
    
    I also doubt that it is intentional harassment.  I think somebody set
    up some form with some standard blanks.  The other DCU employess simply
    go along with the form and require the blanks to be filled in.  If you
    don't fill in the blanks, then you don't get whatever. All mechanical
    with little thought as to what or why the information is being
    requested.  I can understand this (even though I deplore it), but when
    the DCU is then informed of situations, such as unreliable mail
    delivery, they should be flexible enough to deal with reality and not
    insiste on their own ill-thought-out requirements.
    
    twe

>	The DCU knows that the person works for Digital, and that is far 
>	more of an indication of a stable income than any residence address. 

	Not necessarily. The member could be a former employee, or could
	be a relative of an employee. I agree however that a street address
	is a poor indicator of stability.

				Tom_K

    
    RE: .9
    
    I don't know where you get 'harassment' out of this.  I view it as DCU
    having a hard time dealing with a real problem by some of the
    membership.  For them to claim PO boxes are less secure or that people
    who use them are somehow suspect is a real problem on their part.  They
    are a VERY secure method of receiving mail.  Millions of people use
    them as a normal course of business.
    
    The obvious solution is what was stated earlier, maintain a residential
    address AND a mailing address.  But I don't think it is correct for DCU
    or anybody else to think that PO boxes as mailing addresses is
    something that should nullify a members right to certain services.
    
    BTW, I'm no PO box owner but I know the mail box on the front of my
    house allows people other than myself to put their hand in there. 
    Maybe in the future we'll have print scanning mailboxes, but right now
    PO boxes are the best you can do IMO.
    

    I have considerable sympathy for somebody using a PO box.  When I was
    living in Littleton, MA, I had mail taken from my street-side box and
    scattered over the neighborhood.  I found some of it, but two bills
    were paid a month late as a result.

I somewhat agree that I wouldn't want DCU lending money to people who only 
provide a P.O. Box, but:

When I had this problem, DCU told me in no uncertain terms that
	1) They felt that my (locked) P.O. Box was more readily accessible to
	   theft than my (not locked) mailbox in front of my house was.
	2) There were no exceptions to their "No P.O. Box and ATM card" rule

IF they'd told me up front that all they wanted was a home address in ADDITION
to my mailing address, there wouldn't have been a problem.  In fact, once they
eventually decided that, there WASN'T a problem.  It just took talking to 
several people at DCU to get to that understanding.

I didn't feel particularly victimized by DCU.  I felt victimized by the creep
who was stealing the mail from my box at home.  I did, however, feel run around
by DCU.  I felt like I was dealing with a faceless organization with a big list
of rules for which it was considered more important that they be followed, 
rather than understood.

    Now what would DCU have done when I lived in Adelphia, NJ?  The Post
    Office offered either a) PO Boxes (when available) or b) General
    Delivery. There was NO home delivery or RFD.  I would liked to have
    seen them send an ATM or VISA card to my street address which was; the
    White Farm House on Monmouth County Route 524, two houses East of the
    Blinking Yellow Light at Cumberland Farms on the South side of the
    Highway, Adelphia, NJ 07710.  Since Digital had NO problem sending my
    paycheck to PO Box 68 (which was my address of file with Digital), why
    should that have been a problem for DCU? (I was a member of WCU at the
    time, before DCU was chartered.) I guess I couldn't be a member if I
    lived there today.

    Boggles the mind. . .
    
    -Bob

    	My DCU monthly statement is addressed to
    Arnold Polikoff
    P.O. Box 1322
    Shirley MA 01464-1322
    
    	I have an ATM card, VISA card, overdraft protection, share 1, 5,
    and 10.
    		Shhhhhh. Don't tell DCU :*)

    
    There seems to be no rhyme or reason to any of this.  I have
    encountered this at DCU before, but for other things.  Could it simply
    be a case of people not being up to date or inexperienced on DCU policy
    and procedures?  In other words, a people problem (training).  This is
    my guess since people are reporting cases that run the gamut and the DCU
    system seems to contain the functionality.  The only variable is the
    interface, the DCU person on the phone or behind the window.
    

> There seems to be no rhyme or reason to any of this.

Could it be ignorance? People come and go and sometimes (or most of the time)
there maybe poor training. One of the banks I had an account at several years
ago had the same problem. I went in and conducted a certain transaction: I didn't
want to pay for traveller's checks at DCU so I took a treasurer's check in my
name which is supposed to be the equivalent of cash or as good as cash. I went
to a bank where I had an account (the bank teller told me the check was as good
as cash). The bank policy was that a treasurer's check is the same as cash and
that I didn't need to deposit it and I could get my traveller's checks for free
since I had an account there. Well the next year, I did the same thing. The
teller (a different one) told me that I needed to deposit the check and wait for
it for (I forget how many days) to clear before I can get my traveller's checks.
I told her I had done this before (last year) with no problems. I asked her if
the bank policy had changed and she said not in the last year, but that she 
was not familiar with the policy. We then went to her manager, who sat me down
and took care of the whole matter with no problem. While the teller was working
on my problem, the manager apologized for the fact that the teller was not 
familiar with the policies of the bank, especially that a treasurer's check 
was as good as cash and that many banks will cash them immediately for people
even if you don't have an account there. The manager said the bank will make sure that all teller's are familiar with the
policies of the bank.

What I found with DCU teller's is that the teller and the supervisor may not know
but won't offer to find out for you either. Basically here's the wall, you want
to know where the door is, find it yourself. 

By the way, this bank made me feel that it was my money that they were taking
care of. I also had a credit card from them. When I exceeded the limit (which 
I had not realized), they automatically increased my limit by $500 more than
what I had charged and sent me a letter that this was my new limit. I also called
on the phone and told them that I wanted to charge air-line tickets which would
exceed the limit and they increased my limit by another $1000 on the phone. As 
far as I know this bank is still in business.

				- Ramani

    	This is a fun note. When I moved into Shirley there were no
    assigned number to houses. Knowing that there is a limit to the length
    of a street address in a computer, I was thinking of using the following
    street address
    72878473897341259342979349823789723497893248942389 Chapel Street.
    
    	That would have blown a fuse.

    Hi,
    
    As I have mentioned in another note, I worked at DCU a few years ago. 
    I believe from having seen what went on there that the real reason they
    want the street address is so they know where to find you.  People have
    been known to live in one area and have there mail delivered to a box
    in another area or another state for that matter.  As Credit reporting
    companies rely on addresses to keep track of people, banks make a point
    of collecting this data and passing it on to them.  As DEC employees I
    would stick to my guns and give them what you want.  Tell them you
    arent going to make up something so there forms will be "Happy".  If
    that is where the mail goes, then that is the correct address.
    
    Dont let them drag you all through the mud with burecratic "crap".  I
    know that when I was there, all it took was a person determined to come
    in and just keep going up the ladder with there complaint and they
    could suddenly change anything.  They can wave bank charges to the a
    person who complains right.  Nothing is beyond their power!!!  I feel
    bad for all the people who didnt follow through with their complaint,
    knowing had they remained calm (screaming wont get you anywhere) and
    persistant they would 98% of the time get their reasonable complaint
    handled to their satisfaction!!!!
    
    Paula

Hmmm, but I don't feel that each member should have to fight this battle. The
DCU should fix their broken policies.

Although thanks for encouraging people to speak up - maybe if enough folks do
it the DCU will open their eyes.

-Glenn-

Author:	DCU                           
Date:	13-Mar-1992
Posted-date: 13-Mar-1992
Subject: P.O BOXES                                                               


        
                   DIGITAL EMPLOYEES' FEDERAL CREDIT UNION
        
        Mailing ATM Cards to a P.O. Box Address:
        
        DCU will mail ATM Cards to a P.O. Box address when the P.O. 
        Box is the member's usual mailing address.  For example, John 
        Smith receives DCU statements and other mailings at his P.O. 
        Box address, therefore, we will mail an ATM card to that 
        address.  However, if John Smith's usual mailing address is a 
        street address, we will NOT mail an ATM card to a P.O. Box 
        address.
        
        Further, when a P.O. Box address is used as a regular mailing 
        address, DCU does require a street address to be on file.  
        This address is only used to contact the member in an 
        emergency, for example, problems with the card, lost/stolen 
        card, etc.
        
        If you have any questions, please contact Sandy Ramalho at 
        DTN/223-6735 or 508/493-6735, ext. 231.

    My heart.................
    
    ;-)

>        Further, when a P.O. Box address is used as a regular mailing 
>        address, DCU does require a street address to be on file.  
>        This address is only used to contact the member in an 
>        emergency, for example, problems with the card, lost/stolen 
>        card, etc.

Rubbish! I told my story a few replies back. All they have is my P.O. Box #.
Six months or so after they threatened to destroy my ATM card if I didn't send
them a street address they just up and sent me the card to the P.O. Box.

Even if they had my street address. How would they use that to contact me? Drive
to my house? I think not.

Does the DCU's left hand have the slightest idea of what it's right hand is
doing?

-Glenn-

    I dont think requesting a person's street address incase of an
    emergency cuts it.  If you can mail it to a street address, you can
    mail it to a PO box in an emergency, unless DCU is stating that they
    will make actual house calls in an emergency!!!
    
    I know from experience that the reason isnt that simple!!!
    
    
    paula

    I believe that overnight delivery services such as Federal Express will
    not deliver to a P.O. Box.

.27:

True, but unless it absolutely, positively has to be there, I find the PO Box
has a distinct advantage.

UPS would come by on Day 1, leave a note saying I have two more days.  I'd
go down the morning of Day 2, and be told "it's already on the truck".  I'd
get home to find a note saying they tried three days in a row (yeah, right,
day 1 and day 3), and that they sent it back.

With a P.O. Box, they just send me a card saying "We can't deliver to a P.O.
Box, so we're just holding the package here for you".

Given that I'm never at home when they deliver, and I'm therefore going to have
to go down to pick it up anyway, I found the P.O. Box non-delivery approach to
be a whole lot more reliable than trying to teach UPS that "2" comes between
"1" and "3".

Works the same for Fed Ex, too.

Which if you remember your BLISS is 2 }8-)}

I've had similar UPS Experiences (though, often they leave
whatever in my well house).   Boy did it cause a flap when I found the
yellow slip saying they had delivered a $400+ item across the street and
they had left it in the garage since noone was home there also.

Since most (not 100%) of the membership of DCU are Digital Employees, how about
Location and Mailstop. I'm not sure about DEC mailroom policies, but I've seen
many people get personal mail at work as they didn't want to give out their home
addresses and didn't have a P.O.Box. The ATMs do ask for your DTN on the deposit
envelopes. If you are a DEC employee, DCU does get copies of the DTN books don't
they? They know how to find you if they need to.

    
    RE: .last
    
    According to the 1990 Annual Report, there are about 20,000 non-DEC
    members.  (almost 20% of the membership)
    

�Since most (not 100%) of the membership of DCU are Digital Employees, how about
�Location and Mailstop. I'm not sure about DEC mailroom policies, but I've seen
�many people get personal mail at work as they didn't want to give out their home
�addresses and didn't have a P.O.Box. 
    
    There was a big push in HLO recently to get employees to stop having
    personal mail sent to the office.  This was being touted as a cost
    saving measure.