Conference unifix::sailing

    Correction: The Waquiez Gladiator is 33 feet long...
    
    Took a look at an Ohlson 38, "Freya," this am.  My first 
    venture.  Asking 59,500.  Here's what I found:
    
    To me, an extraordinarily beautiful boat.  That's what attracted
    me in the first place.  In bristol condition, this boat
    ranks with a classic like the Concordia Yawl.
    
    Below the waterline, the hull looked to be in A-1 shape, with
    no signs of blisters or patch work.  She has a split underbody with 
    a skegged rudder -- not as large as I expected.  There were 
    more thru-hulls than I'd like -- 6 -- but otherwise she looks 
    very clean.  She has a "MAX" prop, but no sign of a zinc, and no 
    room on the shaft in front of the prop.
    
    Above the waterline, the hull has been "Imroned" a brilliant
    dark green with gold cove stripes.  The paint has noticeable holidays
    in a few places and is badly chafed forward where the tarp blew free
    during the hurricane and slapped the hull.  In addition, there are
    several scuffed areas where the tarp has worked.  Don't know how
    Imron takes to being buffed.  Suspect not too well.
    
    The deck was recently re-surfaced, light green non-skid.
    The bright-work (doghouse, tow rail, and cockpit combing)
    have been well-maintained, with no deep stains or delamination.
    The cockpit is extremely weathered, but not irredeemable.
    And Eureka, she has a tiller!
    
    Poked into all the cockpit hatches.  Deep.  Too many shelves on the
    starboard side.  I found that the hull is generously laid up with 
    multiple longitudinal stringers glassed in.  There's some jury-rigged 
    wiring leading to the engine panel, however, and the grounding straps 
    seem to run haphazardly from the various places they're bolted to.  
    Also, the current owner put in a new Westerbeke -- very nice -- but 
    opted for fresh water cooling.  The plumbing is all beneath the cockpit 
    and looks pretty scary to me, if only because it's tough to get to.
    Not really sure how this type of cooling system works, but my
    hunch is it's complicated.
    
    Down below:  The cabin sole needs to be replaced.  The boards are
    badly nicked and warped.  Again looking aft, the view behind the engine
    is cluttered and cramped.  Engine is accessed by dismantling the
    companionway -- fairly typical.  Beneath the sole, the sump/bilges
    are compartmentalized with screw-down covers.  Don't know exactly
    what each compartment was for -- rather small. 
    
    Looking forward, the bulkheads are "wall-papered" an off white and
    accented by wood trim.  The rest of the cabinetry is wood -- mahogany
    I think but don't honestly know.  Most of the wood surfaces could stand
    to be cleaned and/or varnished, but they're by no means in bad shape.
    All the cushions appear to have recent covers -- ocean blue cloth.
    Very nice.  The galley is a mix -- an alcohol stove that's a mess,
    and a large ice box that's lined with  stainless-steel.  Small stainless
    sink.  Fair stowage space.
    
    Moving forward, the fold-down table is not as rugged as it could be,
    and locker-door fasteners all need replacing.  The chain-plates are
    a lighter gauge steel than I expected.  They tie into the hull, not
    the bulkhead.  No signs of undue stress, but there was some rust
    between the plates where they bolted to the glassed-in members.
    Superficial, I'd guess.
    
    The head is enclosed by virtue of two swinging doors that close to
    cordon off the head.  One door can be used to close off
    the forward cabin.  Don't really like the arrangement.  The head
    itself looks like it needs to be replaced.  Also, very
    narrow passage to the bow.  V-berths up front with shelves above
    and lockers beneath.  Pretty standard.  The forepeak was open.
    The forward hatch needed fasteners but had new lexan. 
    
    All the sea-cocks are supposedly new, but I couldn't move any
    of them.  The boat has been sitting for a year, however.
    The tanks -- water and fuel, are in the center of the boat, beneath
    the sole.
    
    That's about covers my survey.  Many more notable details, but my
    overall impression was of a fundamentally solid boat in need of
    a substantial refit.  Wiring, cosmetics, plumbing, some minor glass
    work, new stove (propane with appropriate tank locker and hookup),
    new cabin sole, fasteners everywhere, some remodeling of the
    head enclosure, new toilet, and general gutting, cleaning, and
    painting.  That's my list of to-dos.  I'd love to own this boat,
    but seems way to expensive for the work required.  Will not
    make an offer but will express my opinion that the price is 
    way too high.  Now, if it could be had for $40K...
    
    Next up, the Gladiator...
    

So why not offer $40K? Maybe the owner is desperate, especially if the 
boat has been sitting for a year and why not first offhandedly mention
all the things that need to be done?

Fresh water cooling for the engine is the ONLY way to go, in my not 
always humble opinion. The engine will last years longer. Our fresh 
water cooled Westerbeke is 12 years old, and new engines are not exactly 
inexpensive.

Alan

PS What's your ultimate cruiser?

    I also was confused by the apparent negative reaction to FWC.  I would
    think this is far preferrable to raw water cooling by a long shot
    unless you happen to be in fresh water.  The plumbing is pretty
    straight forward and is basically a stainless heat exchanger that
    circulates raw water around the coolant reservoir.  Fairly easy to
    repair and doesn't have much more external plumbing than a raw water
    system alone.  
    
    As for the Gladiateur, I have raced against one on Lake Champlain.  I
    think they rate at something like 162.  The owner had taken it down the
    Hudson River to the Atlantic and cruised the east coast and the
    Carribean.  I don't believe any extensive modifications were done to
    accomplish this either.  Unfortunately I cannot help you with the
    layout or any other details.  It is a pretty boat though.  
    
    Brian 

    Dean, I think most engines are fresh water  cooled.  The closed. fresh
    water system is then cooled by the sea water open system.  No problems
    at all!
    
    Didn't know you were this serious!
    
    BTW, replacing the cabin sole is a snap.  We did it on Fat Tuesday. 
    Got some teak and holly veneer marine plywood and cut it to the pattern
    of the old, damaged sole.  We then Awlgripped it in clear with clear
    grit for non skid.  Came out great an withstood the rigors of racing
    very well!
    
    Dave

    RE replies...
    
    Lesson learned.  I'm just not that familiar with auxilary
    systems.  Now I know better about fresh water cooling!
    Found out as much when I spoke to the broker last night and
    told him my reactions.  He indicated the seller is "anxious."
    I plan to look at this boat again with the help of a more
    experienced eye -- no survey yet -- but someone who's mucked
    about a *lot* more than I with stuff other than sails.  Regardless
    of his reaction, however, I will shop around until I feel I've 
    become a reasonably well-informed consumer.  There's too much to
    see that's priced low to jump on the first thing I look at (well,
    that Ohlson does touch a soft spot).  But with boats like Sabre 34s
    available -- I expect I can find one in excellent shape for the 
    mid-to-upper 40s -- it behooves me to look some more.
    
    Alan, have you ever heard of a Panda 40?  Saw one in Friday Harbor,
    San Jaun Island, a few weeks ago.  She looks somewhat like a Valiant
    40 but with a sleeker doghouse, teak decks.  Something like that --
    constructed for year-around service -- would be my ultimate.  
    
    Brian, the boat I'm going to see is most likely the one you raced
    against.  It's in Shelbourne Vt.  The broker said they used it
    very little.  What's the name of the boat you saw?  Any impressions
    of the owner?  How did he treat the boat?  Also, the broker indicated he 
    is anxious and would likely accept an offer in the mid-to-upper 40s.
    
    Dave, I'm serious about looking and learning, and if DEC stock
    begins to recover -- betting it will -- I will be in a realistic
    position to buy.  Would race a lot less.  But not quit.  ;)
    

The Panda 40 is another Bob Perry design, full keel and heavy and likely 
not too fast. All that teak would be an incredible maintenance problem 
unless you have a well-filled checkbook. I'd buy a Valiant 40 instead.

    Took another look at "Freya" on Saturday and decided against
    her.  My buddy concured that she's a lovely boat, but there's
    so much cosmetic work to do I'd be cleaning, stripping, and
    varnishing for the next two years.  And then she would require
    a lot of ongoing effort to keep her up.  In addition, we noticed
    some less than desirable aspects to her construction:  Although her
    hull seems ruggedly built, *everywhere* we looked we found mat.
    Even on the tabs used to tie in the bulkheads.  I'd expect to see
    cloth there, and it leads me to suspect the layup is completely of
    mat.  Not my idea of strong.  And the water and fuel tanks are 
    glassed in over the keel, making it impossible to inspect the
    forward bilge over the keel.  
    
    Re Alan:
    
    When I saw the Panda, it was next to a Valiant, and my eyes got
    stuck on the Panda.  The boat is gorgeous.  As I'd live-aboard my
    ultimate cruiser more than not, the upkeep would not be so much of an
    issue.  And because trans-oceanic passages will become a priority, I'm
    willing to sacrifice speed for comfort and peace of mind.  But that's
    a few years off...

    I've received listings for the Waquiez 33, as well as
    the C&C 35 MkIII.  Certain aspects of the Waquiez I find
    unappealing -- a sail-drive and a deck-stepped rig.  I could
    live with either, I suppose, but I've decided to
    exhaust local candidates before driving to Burlington Vt.
    BTW, the boat's name is "In Orbit," ex "Avalanche."  
    
    I'm curious if anyone has experience with sail-drives.
    Comments?  I don't want to start a deck-step vs. keel-step debate,
    however.  I just prefer keel-stepped.  
    
    I've yet to receive listings on any Sabres, although I suspect
    they're mostly deck-stepped rigs.  Yes?  Also, there's a Tartan 34
    available in Hingham -- vintage '75 -- that I'll go see.
    
    The C&C listing is the most comprehensive -- the boat sounds terrific.
    But she draws 6' 6" and the price is high.
    
    Will post reports as I see boats.  Comments/suggestions are
    always welcome!
    
    Cheers,
    Dean

Dean,

re: .8

>    I've yet to receive listings on any Sabres, although I suspect
>    they're mostly deck-stepped rigs.  Yes?  

Sabre 34's are keel-stepped.

re: comments in .0 

>    Medium displacement hull suited to exposed coastal passages
                                                ^^^^^^^
and .7

>            And because trans-oceanic passages will become a priority, I'm
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you need to reconcile these two goals.

My favorite Sabre is the 34, (as you may know I've had four) but it sure 
wouldn't be my top choice for extended offshore travel. It's a great boat for 
the former, but much too light and too wet for the latter. A five day run
to Bermuda is one thing, a five week run somewhere else would be quite another.

John
    

    Dean,
    
    The boat I raced against is named Flirt.  White with a thick blue cove
    stripe.  Flirt has been raced a lot and is not for sale as far as I
    know.  You may find that prices on the lake are higher since the
    selection is more limited.  As for the sail drive, I don't like the
    looks of those units either, seems all too prone to snagging and
    breaking something.  I believe all of these (Gladiateurs) came with
    them.  Don't know about the longevity though.  
    
    Brian
    

    Let me add another couple of comments (FWIW):
    
    1) In the used boat market for ANY make of boat I would look for:
    
       a) The manufacturer is still in business (part sparing + tech support)
    or b) A good owner's association exists (for the same reasons).
    
    2) As has been said in this conference, look for resale ability of
        whatever you buy (usually, this means recognizable manufacturers
        and their associated quality.
    
    3) As far as a Lake Champlain boat, I specifically recommend looking
        into this, particularly for older boats.  The fresh water sailing
        and somewhat shorter season makes for less wear and tear on
        fittings, systems, and sails (IMHO).  Of course the habits of the 
        previous owner may eliminate any advantage this might have.  A
        couple of boats back, we spent a nice weekend looking (in Feb.,
        I might add) and bought a '73 Tartan 30 and had it trucked down
        to the coast.
    
    Have fun.
    

    I would avoid the sail drive.  It is said the only good thing about
    those units is they were easy for the builder to install.  They create
    a lot of drag, and, worse, are a big chunk of aluminium constantly
    exposed to salt water.  They tend to suffer horrendous corrosin
    problems.  In fresh water, maybe - salt water, no.
    
    -Jean

    RE Sail Drive
    
    A friend who's an electrical engineer said the corrosion
    problem can be eliminated by running a small current through
    the unit.  ??  Even so, I just don't like the units either.
    
    Progress:
    
    Saw a Sabre 34 yesterday, vintage 1980.  My first time aboard
    a 34 and the first time I've really poked around a Sabre.  Very nicely
    built and very simple.  Most everything is visible, substantial, and 
    has excellent service access.  The boat has a nice layout and this one 
    -- Scrimshaw -- is in well-used but good condition.  The only trouble spot 
    I saw was the keel and thru-hulls.  The keel is badly blistered and 
    corroded, with a crack all around where the keel and keelson match up.  
    The leading edge of the keel also betrays some hard groundings, although 
    I saw no evidence of stress fractures in the hull or anything unusual 
    around the keel bolts.  Someone did a poor job of fairing in the thru-hulls 
    and the areas around them are cracked and blistered.  Otherwise, the 
    boat is lightly equipped but in good order.  A good cleaning, oiling,
    and waxing would make her look just fine.  The rig looks to be 
    in excellent shape.  
    
    They're asking 49K and change, and the broker stated they'd like
    an offer.  I plan to look at some more Sabres to develop a baseline,
    but I think I've found the "brand" I'll most likely buy, if not the
    model.  The only potential drawback I see is performance, but that
    should be adequate.  Does anyone have a handle on the "envelope"
    for a 34?  5.5 knots to windward in 15 knots of breeze, that sort of
    thing...
    
    I'm seeing a Sabre 32, 1985, and two more 34s this afternoon.
    The 32 is the "Classic" layout and on paper looks very nice.
    Will log my impressions next week.
    
    Thanks,
    Dean
    
    PS Many thanks to John Rodenhiser for his invaluable input concerning
       Sabre 34s!!!!

re .7:

>>>    In addition, we noticed
>>>    some less than desirable aspects to her construction:  Although her
>>>    hull seems ruggedly built, *everywhere* we looked we found mat.
>>>    Even on the tabs used to tie in the bulkheads.  I'd expect to see
>>>    cloth there, and it leads me to suspect the layup is completely of
>>>    mat.  Not my idea of strong.  

You are perhaps being hasty in your criticism. Mat is not as strong as 
woven material, true, but ..... virtually all boats are built of 
alternating layers of mat and woven roving (coarse cloth). The first and 
last layers are mat for a simple reason: Resin shrinks with curing and
age, and if the surface layers were roving, you'd see the weave of the
cloth and have a rather bumpy, uneven surface. When a laminate is 
properly made, it is virtually impossible to tell what the layup 
schedule is without destructive testing. Valiants are unquestionably 
rugged boats. Their hulls are made from alternate layers of 1.5 oz mat 
and 24 oz roving. In the keel area of the Valiant 40 there are 11 layers 
of 1.5 oz mat and 16 layers of 24 oz roving. From the inside all you see
is mat. There is another very important reason for using mat: The
inter-layer bonding between cloth layers is very, very weak, the
inter-layer bonding between mat and roving is much stronger. This helps
prevent delamination. 

As to bulkheads: Cloth tape is quite thin (maybe .010 inch) and many 
layers would be required to get sufficient strength (thickness) using 
cloth alone (and you'd have the inter-layer bonding problem). 1.5 oz mat 
is about .050 in thick and 24 oz roving about .040 thick. Valiants use 
one layer of roving and one of mat on each side of the bulkheads. With 
the mat on the outside, you can't see the roving. I've never heard of 
Valiants having structural problems.

So, the fact that all you could see was mat does not mean that only mat 
was used to build the boat. In fact, I'd be quite surprised if only mat 
was used.

Alan

re .13:

I once crewed on a Sabre 34 from Marblehead to Maine. A quite nice boat, 
yes, but in comparison to our Valiant 32 it was very wet on deck. The 
Sabre 34, which is typical of many cruiser/racers, has a narrow bow with 
little or no flare to the topsides. As a result, there is much spray 
beating into a chop, and much of that goes into the cockpit. In the chop 
we encountered, the spray against the dodger was akin to someone 
throwing buckets of water at close range. In similar conditions, there 
is only occasional light spray in the cockpit of our Valiant due to the 
flare of the hull forward. Yes, the flare probably reduces our windward 
performance a little, but I'd rather be dry without the problems and 
expense of a dodger.

(Note to Sabre owners: I'm not criticizing Sabres -- I'm trying to point
out that certain design features of Sabres and other boats have both
negative and positive consequences.) 

Alan

re: .13
    
>    -- Scrimshaw -- is in well-used but good condition.  The only trouble spot 
>    I saw was the keel and thru-hulls.  The keel is badly blistered and 
>    corroded, with a crack all around where the keel and keelson match up.  
    
    Don't worry about this crack, per se. To quote from the Sabre owners
    manual:
    
    "It is very normal for a crack to develop between the lead and the
    fiberglass at the joint of the keel to the hull. This is due to the
    difference in the thermal expansion rates of the different materials,
    and the differences in the stresses that occur at this joint with the
    boat in the water, compared to the boat resting on a cradle. This crack
    is cosmetic and is of no structural significance as the keel bolts are
    designed to support the full weight of the keel. The crack, itself, can
    be filled with polyester filler putty, such as "White Lightenin", as
    part of the procedure for prepaing the bottom of the boat for anti
    fouling-paint."
    
re: .15

> I once crewed on a Sabre 34 from Marblehead to Maine. A quite nice boat, 
>yes, but in comparison to our Valiant 32 it was very wet on deck. The 
>Sabre 34, which is typical of many cruiser/racers, has a narrow bow with 
>little or no flare to the topsides. As a result, there is much spray 
>beating into a chop, and much of that goes into the cockpit. In the chop 
> we encountered, the spray against the dodger was akin to someone 
> throwing buckets of water at close range. In similar conditions, there 
> is only occasional light spray in the cockpit of our Valiant due to the 
> flare of the hull forward. Yes, the flare probably reduces our windward 
> performance a little, but I'd rather be dry without the problems and 
> expense of a dodger.
>
> (Note to Sabre owners: I'm not criticizing Sabres -- I'm trying to point
> out that certain design features of Sabres and other boats have both
> negative and positive consequences.) 

    Alan, It'd take a real thin skin to call this a criticism of Sabres. 
    It's a plain and simple fact that the lack of flare invites lots of spray
    into the cockpit. Which is why I was suggesting to Dean that I'd want
    something different for long distance offshore cruising. Being wet all
    the time would get old, quick.
    
    John

Having just completed spending the summer looking at boats around this size
(and a bit smaller) and having rejected a Sabre 34 in favor of a C&C 35 (Mk-I)
I'd like to add some thoughts (from the point of view of a 2-time C&C owner).

>                               Requirements:

>Rugged, quality, fiberglass construction
	C&C fits the bill well
>32 to 38 feet
	34'9"
>Medium displacement hull suited to exposed coastal passages
	10,500 lbs, but Length/Displacement is 252, capsize factor is 1.92
>Fast for its length, especially to windward
	PHRF is 126, on a hard beat, 7.0 - 7.5 knots+ indicated, in apparent
	winds up to 35 knots (so far)
>Easy to sail short-handed
	main sheet is dinghy-style 6:1 at traveler in front of helm
>Layout suited to extended cruising with 2 to 4 persons
	Hard to say - tankage certainly is too light.
>Beautiful (gentle sheer, reverse transom, low doghouse)
	Sheer - yes, transom - no, doghouse yes.
>Price under $60K
	Can be had in the high $20s
>Well-maintained with complete historical documentation
	Boat dependent

>                 Candidates, in current order of preference:

>Ohlson 38
>Waquiez Gladiator 32
>Sabre 34
>Tartan 37
>C&C 35 Mk III
	Why the Mk-III?
.
.
.

>    They're asking 49K and change, and the broker stated they'd like
>    an offer.  I plan to look at some more Sabres to develop a baseline,
>    but I think I've found the "brand" I'll most likely buy, if not the
>    model.  The only potential drawback I see is performance, but that
>    should be adequate.  Does anyone have a handle on the "envelope"
>    for a 34?  5.5 knots to windward in 15 knots of breeze, that sort of
>    thing...

	The Sabre 34 (older design, not the 1983?+) rates somewhere around 150
	PHRF. Don't know about windward performance. Single handing is probably
	not enhanced by the coachroof traveler, and coach-roof mainsheet winch.
        Further, with a dodger, the mainsheet winch handle can not be swung
        through full turns.

        To its advantage though, Sabre is still in business, where C&C is in
        receivership. Still, I am happy with my choice.

        Carl

    Carl, If you picked up a C+C 35 for the high 20's I'd say you did well. 
    The 33' I race on is solid and performs well and I would consider a C+C
    product for the requirements listed also.  Tankage can be augmented
    easily enough by adding bladders as long as the space is available.  
    Maybe the realization of a long held dream is not that far off......
    
    Brian

    C&C's and Sabres of comparable vintage look and sail pretty much alike. 
    I looked at both manufacturers' 34 ft. models a while back.  Except for
    the price  (Sabre more $$$), they were like two peas in a pod.  A
    friend lives aboard a Sabre 34, has traveled to Maine in it, likes it,
    but is looking for a larger boat.  1970's vintage C&C's can be had in
    the 20's.  But they get more expensive as they get newer.  Early 80's
    are in the 40's - 50's.  Late 80's can be almost anything.  The prices
    on the latest 34's are around $100k.
    
    Let me offer some non chlorox bottles for your conderation:
    
    Ante-penultimate cuiser:  Cheoy Lee Offshore 32.  Narrow, heavy, teaky,
    wooden masted ketch.  Compact inside, lots of woodwork outside, full
    keel, and, last but not least, the unique sailing qualities of a ketch. 
    But, when you pull into Tahiti, you'll get the nautical equivalent of
    sexual harassment as the natives oggle your boat.  Very pretty if you
    like the traditional look.  Beleive it or not, this is alleged to be a
    PHRF rocket ship in San Francisco (high rating).  Price in the high
    20's.  Not really a serious cruiser but it has character.
    
    Penultimate cruiser # 1 - Westsail 32.  The butt of everyone's slow boat
    jokes.  But the one I saw sailing around Boston Harbor all last winter
    seemed to move very respectably to me.  It does, however, carry a lot
    of sail for a 32 footer.  Double ender, heavy, wide, full keel.  Much
    bigger than the Cheoy Lee.  Good reputation for solidity.  Price in the
    50's - 60's.
    
    PC # 2 - Nonesuch 30.   Much bigger than it sounds.  Catboat which
    moves OK if it's not a drifter.  All I really know is the age of the
    average owner is about 70 but you see them heading out in all kinds of
    crazy weather.  Price about $65K.
    
    PC # 3 - Crealok 34.  Way outside your price range but almost too
    pretty to look at.  One of few cruisers with wide enough decks so that
    you don't have to cling to a lifeline when walking up to the bow. 
    Absolutely drop dead gorgeous.  But at the price they want, you could
    buy a pretty good used Hinckley.
    
    PC # 4 - Hinckley 38.  You have to search for one of these.  A long fin
    keel and trim tab gives it good pointing.  More performance oriented
    than most Hinckleys.  One drawback is the engine in the sump.  You will
    want a good bilge pump, and a few backups.  Price around 70 - 80.  Not
    many were built.
    
    Ultimate cruiser - Salar Giles PH 40 (or variations thereof).  The
    only boat my wife would ever go to Maine in.  A curious mixture that
    works.  Steer from a captains chair in the pilothouse while windshield
    wipers clear the spray.  Set your coffee down on the chart table in
    front of you while the crew trim sheets with the interior mounted
    winches.  Separate fore and aft cabins.  Outside tiller steering.  Wide
    flush decks.  No nonsense rigging.  Sails better to weather than I
    would have thought possible.  When Brian's partner is ready to sell,
    write him check.
    
    - gene

    Gee Gene, you've gone and made me blush.  FWIW, the boat was purchased
    6 years ago for $60K and would probably go for much less today.  The
    plans in the works are to go cruising when Marshall (former partner)
    returns from the orient.  Direction?  Any.  St. Kilda has been a great
    cruising boat but she needs 15 knots just to get interested in sailing. 
    And I have to agree on the comfort thing.  I have not found a more
    comfortable boat to be out in the weather in either under way or at
    anchor.  I have also not been on a boat that has drawn more attention
    and admiration dockside or from passing boaters while at anchor.  
    
    Marshall's new partner is a carpenter and accomplished boat builder.  I
    guess building a Friendship sloop (subsequently lost) qualifies.  The
    plans are to gut Kilda and rebuild a more liveable interior for long
    distance cruising.  After the upgrades, it's off to wherever.  
    
    And to take the divergence one step further,  my bro-in-law just
    purchased an 1960 LH40, hull number one.  Built for and by Ted Hood as
    an offshore racer, primarily for Bermuda races etc.  All wood with
    aluminum spars, classic hood centerboarder.  In very good condition and
    for a price of $10K.  Not what I would consider an off shore cruiser
    today but if this was safety during it's heyday, my perception has been
    changed somewhat.  
    
    Brian
    

    Re Alan:  What are your thougts about the glassed in tanks?
    I could still be talked into the Ohlson.   ;)
    
    Re Gene:  I'd love a Crealock, but the price is out of sight.
    On the other hand, a year or two from now may be a different.
    If I don't find a great deal on a very good boat, I may
    wait a bit longer and hopefully have a few extra dollars.
    A Crealock might well suit me for life.
    
    Re comments on Sabre's being wet:  I'd like to get the chance to sail
    a few of these boats I'm looking at, but since that's not very
    likely, your comments are VERY important to me.  Points well taken
    about spray, the location of the mainsheet, and etc.
    
    Re C&Cs:  Yes, I'm going to open up my search.  Actually, you
    have a boat I'd love to see.  Does she have the classic swept back keel
    of the early C&Cs?  Or is it the ultra-narrow, thin, deep variety
    that looks like it would be prone to stalling?  I've also seen a
    more moderate keel design, somewhere between the swept back fin and
    a modern Doug Peterson type of keel.  That's what I'd want.  But I
    don't know which "Mark" that would be.
    
    
    Update, Sabre 32 and 34:

    I spent Thursday afternoon looking at Sabres.  I saw a 32
    and a 34.

    The 32 is in Manchester, named "Dulcinea."  I saw her in the
    water.  She's had very light use and with a good cleaning would look 
    just about brand new.  I liked the layout very much -- they had 
    two layouts for that boat, an aft cabin and a dinette configuration -- 
    this one has the dinette.  The boat seems very comparable to a 34 in 
    terms of usable space, and this one is nicely equipped.  The only 
    drawback is the mast -- stepped on the deck.  But that's a compromise 
    I could live with.  

    I told the broker I wanted to see more, and to find out when she'd be 
    hauled.  This is where it gets interesting.  He called back and told me
    they had no plans to haul the boat; "they want to sell her."  Well, I would
    not buy a boat without having it surveyed, although I'm about 99% confident
    this boat would pass rigorous scrutiny, so I said as much.  His reply, "If
    you want to see the bottom, you'll have to buy her."  Right.  Well, I 
    suggested I might make an offer (asking 57K) but it would be contingent 
    upon hauling the boat and getting her surveyed.  Also, I've learned that 
    some great boats can be found for really good prices, so I made it clear 
    I wasn't going to sweat over this boat.  Haven't talked to him since to 
    see if the boat moved this weekend, but I'll bide my time.  There's some 
    34's yet to see, as well as a Tartan 34, and a C&C or two.

    Speaking of Sabre 34s, however, I saw the bottem-end of that market.  A 
    boat named Genesis in Salem.  Vintage 79, and the owner (owners?) haven't 
    cared for her at all.  The cabin sole is soaking wet and punk in 
    several places.  The imroned topsides are a mess.  The interior is very 
    dirty.  But, the basic boat looks solid and reclaimable.  These boats
    take abuse and seem to age well!  Asking 39K.  I bet she could be 
    had for 25K.  I'm tempted, but there's something almost sad about this
    boat -- just a feeling I got -- and so I'm not making any moves until
    I've seen some better examples of the breed.  There are several out there 
    in the 55K to 60K asking bracket, so a nice one can certainly be had for 
    the mid 40s.
    
    All for now,
    Dean

	A little bit on companies in and out of business: Bought a 4 year old
	Beneteau. The company is still quite in business. However, when chasing
	down info on it, it's like an orphan. At least in this country.
	The company opened a plant in North(?) Carolina about the time the new
	`S' series came out ( S for Stark, the designer ) which are light,
	cored hulls, most fractional rigged.
	Anyhow, when I call for info or parts, it's quite the chase. Benetau
	France and Canada refer me to the US plant, but they have only the specs
	and parts on the models made there.
	Example: Hurricane Bob turned my prop shaft into a boomerang. Beneteau
	parts department wouldn't have another in stock for over a month. 
	Further, the strut was nowhere (in the US) to be found, so I updated
	to the new style. Ended up saving LOTS of $$$ and time chasing down
	the shaft myself and having it remachined to match.
	So all in all, the support was OK at best.

	Other side: Last boat was an S-2. They kept parts in stock, easy to get,
	fairly reasonable for years after they stopped making sailboats. Of 
	course, the company IS still around.

	Practical Sailor addresses the issue of replacement parts a lot, and one
	of the editors bought a C&C. 33 foot? Forget the size. Anyway, seems to
	me that a little homework and phone calls will get you parts.

	It helps that there are still lots of C&C's around. 

	Anyhow, if the price/condition/quality was right, the manufacturer's 
	financial status would be worth little to me. Besides, what happens 
	next month? Year?

	Oh yeah, I looked at a repo C&C 33 (Mk ??? the newer) when I was 
	shopping, and the price was really right. The hook was, no guarantees
	on ANYTHING, and the motor hadn't been kept up... so I was gunshy.
	Looking back, would have been a bit more for the buck.

	Ain't shopping fun?

	Scott

    Dean & I had an offline discussion regarding Sabres. Possibly there's
    something here that's useful to others, so with his permission I'm
    posting our mail. John_R
    
From:	VERGA::FACHON       22-OCT-1991 13:07:41.70
To:	WBC::RODENHISER
Subj:	Re your comment in my "penultimate cruiser" note

Hi John,

The comment in .7 about trans-oceanic passages was with regards to
my "ultimate" cruiser.  Alan asked what that would be.  Panda 40.
I'm not looking for that boat yet.  For now, a Sabre-type sloop
is my goal.  A 5-to-10 year boat.  I'm going to see a Sabre 32, 1985,
tomorrow.  I think the 34 is my favorite too, however, and I hope
to see a few over the next couple of weeks.  Can you tell me of any
particular things I should look at to judge the condition?  Any trouble
areas?  Also, one thing I don't like about Sabres is the offset prop-shaft.
Do you think a folding prop would reduce drag without reducing performance
under power too much?

Thanks for your input!
Dean F.
==============================================================================
From:	WBC::RODENHISER   22-OCT-1991 14:31:45.90
To:	VERGA::FACHON
Subj:	RE: Re your comment in my "penultimate cruiser" note

Gotcha,

Didn't notice the distinction.

The offset prop is actually a neat feature, although somewhat of a trade-off.
Various Sabre's depending on year of manufacture have either Volvo (older) or
Westerbeke (newer) engines. These shafts rotate in opposite directions, thus
you will see some Sabre's with props offset to port and others to starboard. 

The offset counteracts torque and a Sabre will back down nearly perfectly 
straight. Thus you can steer with the rudder quite effectively. This is a 
fairly popular characteristic.

The negative effect of this is that you don't get direct propwash on the rudder
and it is not possible to nudge the stern sideways (when backing out from a
dock) by turning the rudder and jabbing the throttle. You can walk the stern of
some boats out away from the dock with this technique quite well. 

I had a folding prop (Martec) on my 34 and didn't like it at all. I'd never buy
another. Very inefficient, don't open evenly, vibrate, foul on the least little
seaweed, etc. etc.  You have to be very careful to open the throttle gently;
they have a tendency to slam open (especially in reverse) and put quite a
strain on the prop strut (tore mine loose, had to be tightened and re-glassed
in). This might be OK if you are the only one to ever operate the boat, but
watch out when anyone unsuspecting is at the wheel. Great care has to be taken
that the engine has come down to complete idle before shifting between forward
and reverse. 

I have a MAXprop (big bucks) on my 42 and absolutely love it. It is worth the 
money!

The only negatives I have with the 32 are:

 - This boat had a very short production life. It is the closest thing to an
   'orphan' boat that Sabre produced. The reason for it's lack of popularity
   was mostly due to price/performance compression with the 30 and 34. And....

 - The aft-cabin layout was poor. This boat has more berths than most 50 
   footers. Near the end of it's life Sabre tried to soften this issue with an
   optional 'classic' layout similar to the other Sabre's but it was too late.

This would be far and away the toughest Sabre to sell.

Best advice I can give as to what to look for:

Sabre's are sometimes referred to as 'cult' boats. Owners tend to equip them
very well and take very good care of them. I'd be more suspicious of poorly
equipped or poorly conditioned boats, although these are the best buy's. If I
were to get rid of my 42, I'd go looking for the ratty-est 34 I could find,
strip it bare and restore it. The closest thing I could identify as a common
problem has to do with deck leaks. If the boat looks the slightest bit wet
inside, you may have a long road ahead tracking down port, stanchion, winch
pocket, deck hardware leaks. Toe rail leaks are not very common, Sabres have a 
very good hull-to-deck joint.

Good luck,

John
===============================================================================
From:	VERGA::FACHON       22-OCT-1991 14:53:01.88
To:	WBC::RODENHISER
Subj:	RE: Re your comment in my "penultimate cruiser" note

Thanks very much for the informed info!!
Is the prop on your 42 offset as well?
And the Max prop works ok?  I'd go that
route, I suppose.

There are several 34s available, ranging from '78
to '84, and asking prices from 49 to 59 k.  I'd
like to get under 50 if I can.  Any preference on
vintage?

Thanks again!!
Dean 
=================================================================
From:	WBC::RODENHISER   22-OCT-1991 15:41:02.21
To:	VERGA::FACHON
Subj:	RE: Re your comment in my "penultimate cruiser" note

ALL Sabre's (except perhaps an experimental, or very early model 28) have
offset props. Volvo usually to stbd, Westerbeke to port.

Sabre migrated from Volvo to Westerbeke with the introduction of the 38, 
somewhere around 1981-82. Volvo didn't have an engine appropriate for the 38 
and Sabre wanted consistency in their engine offerings for the obvious 
production and support reasons. Westerbekes also had better cooling and 
conversely, better supply of hot water for showers.

The MAXprop is the ONLY way to go. They are flawless and have an excellent
performance/quality/warranty reputation. They are exceptional in reverse. They
are not available thru catalogs and/or on the discount market, although you can
get up to a 10% discount buying at a show. I have the latest prices at home,
but my guess is you would be looking at $1000-$1100. The closest thing to a
deficiency is that they are not 100% foolproof during installation to select
the exact pitch for maximum performance. You may have to experiment over a
season or two to get it right, although they've probably got the Sabre 34
pegged. My boat was the 1st installation on a 42 and while the first year
performance was good, we found it possible to increase the pitch one degree and
get slightly better speed out of the same rpm. Don't believe their ad's that
claim that the pitch is adjustable in the water. Maybe for a diver with LOTS of
MAXprop experience, but it took me the better part of three hours on dry land
the first time I tried it. Impossible with just a mask and flippers.

My old 34, "Shibumi", an '83 model was up for sale last year. Don't know if it
still is or not. It's up in the Portland area at Falmouth Foreside. I sold it
in '86 for something around $62K. Bet I still have an old listing somewhere.
Will look for it. You should be easily able to find one for less than $50K. In
this price range, for this kind of boat, my suggestion is to stay away from
brokers as much as possible. Call the factory and ask for pointers to contacts
with the various Sabre owners associations. There's at least 3, possibly four
in your geography. Avoid, if possible, telling the factory at this point that
you want to buy a Sabre, they'll push you to a dealer. Contact the
associations, ask for a newsletter, preferably one that has a membership
roster. Ask if they know of boats for sale by owner. 

There was a model change in '85 which is why the price jumps here.

John
========================================================================
From:	VERGA::FACHON       23-OCT-1991 10:02:34.56
To:	WBC::RODENHISER
Subj:	RE: My old Sabre 34 listing

Thanks again John for all the help!  I'm taking
a look at a 34 this evening -- my first time aboard one.
Her name is Scrimshaw, out of Marblehead.  She's a broker boat,
1980, asking 49.5K.  Will let you know what I think.

Cheers,
Dean

    

re .21:

>>>    Re Alan:  What are your thougts about the glassed in tanks?

Well, I think they are a lousy idea, but ..... There are some things 
that would absolutely keep m from buying a particular boat, but
glassed in tanks isn't one of them. With effort, even a glassed in tank
can be removed and repaired or replaced. The amount of effort would, 
however, affect what I would offer for the boat. 

re Crealock 34: I saw one at a boatshow a few years ago. My (faded)
memory of the interior is that it is a quite poor design for offshore
sailing. 

re interior layout: In general, I do not like dinettes, most especially
in small boats (I would not buy a boat with a dinette). They are always
awkward for dining and are generally awkward to convert to a berth. Our
Valiant has two settees, each a wonderful sea berth. Just lie down on
the leeward side and go to sleep. Speaking of Valiants, the 32 is a
wonderful boat, seaworthy, comfortable, safe, well-built, a good sailor,
etc. The only other boat I'd rather own is a Valiant 40 (of those boats
I can ever hope to afford). The asking price for a used Valiant 32 is in
the $40 000 to $60 000 range. Mine is in my front yard if anyone would
like to take a look. The biggest problem with buying a used Valiant 32
is finding one. Only about 60 have been built. 

re the builder still being in business: This is not an important 
consideration for me. There is (usually) nothing difficult about 
fabricating parts. Any machinist/woodworker/fiberglass person/spar maker 
can make replacement parts. Sure, then they're custom parts, but because
of the low production volume, any part from the builder is virtually
custom anyway and priced to match. The manufacturing technology of most 
boats isn't terribly sophisticated. Carbon fiber masts are an 
exception, but I wouldn't want one for a circumnavigation for that very 
reason. 

re a cheap, poorly maintained boat: In today's market, I wouldn't even 
consider it, unless the purchased price was so low I could have all the 
needed repairs/replacements/upgrades done by competent workers for 
significantly less than the cost of buying a boat in good condition. 
This would mean buying the boat very, very cheaply. 

    I wonder if the used market around here will pick
    up, now that a bunch of sailors may be looking to
    replace boats they lost in the storm?  
    
    Re Dinettes...
    
    Gee, I really like them.  Grew up on a boat with one, and
    I guess that's where the fondness stems from.  I know they're
    less than wonderful to dine at while sailing, but at anchor
    they're marvelous, in my experience.  Very cozy.  And not difficult
    to turn into a bunk when the need comes up.  On my penultimate
    cruiser, I'll be in port come night-fall more often than not,
    so the dinette layout is more to my liking.  On the ultimate
    cruiser, I'd look for a "fix-gimballed" drop-leaf.
    
    As for the Sabre 32 dinette in particular, the layout was very 
    simple and comfortable.  My only gripe was the table
    would swivel if you leaned on it.  The base is spring loaded with a
    collar that you tighten to hold it in place.  Would need to *crank*
    that thing awfully tight to keep the table from spinning.  Would need
    to dope out some other arrangement to lock the table, but otherwise
    it was very nice.
    
    Still not ready to bite, however, and will continue looking at
    34s.  A broker also suggested a Niagra 35.  Don't know anything
    about them, however.
    
    Later,
    Dean

    Niagara 35's are supposedly nice boats.  Built in Canada I believe.  
    Heavy by today's standards, well built.  There are a few in charter 
    service in the islands.  They were presented to us as "Safe and 
    comfortable but not very lively" by the charter broker.  Worth a look 
    though as their reputation for being sound is there.  I happen to find 
    them nice to look at also.  
    
    Brian

    Received some photos of a C&C35 MKIII in the mail
    yesterday.  The boat is in Stamford and I'm not driving
    down there for nothing.  Anyway, the pictures revealed 
    enough for me to get a feel for the boat's condition -- very
    well cared for.  Again, a dinette layout with a traditional
    chart table and q-berth, and V-berts forward, etc.  A nice
    layout for my purposes.
    
    She's really quite deep, however, at 6.5, and she has very 
    little in the way of bilges, so I've pretty much ruled her
    out.  Also, the asking price is $66K, and that's just too
    high to even make a "low-ball" offer.  
    
    Biding my time and focussing on Sabre's (really like the
    32 Classic) although I've yet to see some other boats of 
    interest, including a Tartan 34 in Hingham that sounds like 
    it's immaculate.  At this point, and given the market, I've 
    dropped what I'm willing to spend to $45K, tops, and would like
    to get under $40K.  Hope to see some more Sabre's this week.
    
    Cheers for now,
    Dean

    Well, the immaculate Tartan was sold.  Ah well.
    But I did manage to see another very nice Sabre 34.
    "Mariposa" out of Marblehead.  A '78 boat but in
    very good shape.  The only trouble spots were some blisters
    in the gel-coat along the boot-top, and a depression in
    the hull beneath one of the aft poppits.  The yard misplaced
    the poppit, but hopefully if they move it in time the hull
    will remember its shape.  Otherwise, the boat looks more 
    like an '84 vintage. 
    
    The more I see 34s, the more I like them.  It has more 
    deck space than a 32 and draws a bit less.
    
    Have yet to see a C&C 35 MkII, but there are some on
    the market, evidently.
    
    All for now,
    Dean

re .28:

Is the hull of the Sabre 34 cored (eg, with balsa) and, if so, is the 
core of this one dry? I would be very skeptical of a hull that deformed
under the load of a poppet or jackstand, cored or not. 

After sailing a bit in the Mediterranean, Caribbean and Maine, Mass Bay,
Buzzards Bay, my PENULTIMATE cruiser must be capable of; 1) Sailing well to 
weather, 2) Extended cruising for 2 people, and 3) Rigged for Single-handed
    sailing.  Here's what she should be!  

Frank

 Cruising Requirements   
 ---------------------
 o  Full or Modified Full Keel, with Skeg rudder.

 o  Cutter rig.

 o  About 32' LOA,  Moderate to Heavy displacement.  
                                        
 o  2 Bow rollers with Anchor Windlass & Chain Locker.

 o  60+ gallon Fresh Water Tank w/ shower (for 6' person)
       
 o  Jiffy Reefing Main, Lazy Jacks, Roller-furling jib, Self-Tailing Winches.

 o  Wheel Steering w/ Autohelm, & Windvane Steering,  Dodger/Bimini.

 o  Inboard Diesel, fresh water cooled, 40+ gallon tank, 3 bladed prop.

 o  Large Frige, Cabin heater, Chart Table, SSB Radio, Life raft.


  Potential Penultimate Boats 
  ---------------------------

 o Hans Christian 33            o Bristol 32
 o Pacific Seacraft  Orion 30'  o Cabo Rico 34
 o Baba 30                      o Morris 30  "Leigh"
 o Cape Dory 30, 33             o Seafarer 31
 o Crealock 34                  o Sabre 32 34
 o Down-East 32                 o Tartan 34
 o Westsail 32                  o Pacific Seacraft  Dana 27   
 o Valient 32                   o Shannon 28
 o Bayfield 32                  o Southern Cross 28
 o Island Packet 31             o Seasprite 28
    

    Alan,
    
    I don't know if the hull is cored, but I strongly suspect it
    is.  Something I should definitely know, I realize.  The blisters
    along the boot top may be more telling than I thought, though.
    The underbody is in excellent shape, so it must have been done
    over at some point.  Perhaps the blisters are the last traces of
    a more severe problem...
    
    As for the hollow, I've seen them before when the jack-stand was
    misplaced -- as in not under a bulkhead.  But I was disturbed to
    see this too.  The broker said he'd try to find out more about
    the boat's history.

re .31:

Gee, if you had a Valiant you wouldn't have to worry about where you 
place the jackstands (big grin). 

re .30:

Some odd thoughts:

A tiller on a boat 32' or smaller can be quite satisfactory. Autopilots 
for tillers are generally less expensive and more responsive than 
autopilots for wheels. The amount of steering motion from a windvane is 
quite limited, and in general a windvane will be much more satisfactory 
with a tiller than a wheel. (By the way, the Monitor vane is well made
and steers very well.) 

Some of the boats on you list do not seem to match your requirements 
too well (eg, a Sabre 34 sloop has a fin keel and is of light to
moderate displacement). 

One problem with your requirements and some of the boats you list is 
that it is difficult to get large water and fuel tankage in a small boat
(the Valiant 32 is unusual in carrying 90 gallons of water and 40 of 
diesel). 

You also need a fair bit of bouyancy forward to carry an anchor windlass
and much chain without inducing bow-down trim. A windlass and 200' of
chain is about 250 lbs. 

A three-blade propeller and sailing ability are somewhat contradictory
(unless you can afford a Maxprop). A three-blade propeller and some of 
your other requirements are actually boat-independent, eg, you can add 
an SSB radio to any boat.

With a couple of exceptions (full keel, three-blade propeller) I agree 
with your list (which is why we've had our Valiant for 12 years). I'd 
add one more requirement, though -- enough space on deck to carry a hard 
dinghy at least 8' long and preferably 10'. 

Alan

re .28:

    I would also be concerned about a hull depression caused by a poppit.
My '81 Sabre 34 was stored for five winters on jackstands (at home and at
a boatyard) and never experienced the problem regardless of poppit placement.

    The hull of a Sabre is very well constructed.  I am embarrassed to say 
that in '82 I put ours to a test by hitting a vertical ledge in the Sakonnet 
River at 6.7 knots.  I was following a friend with "local knowledge".  He 
drew 6" less water than I, and passed right over it.  The boat came to a 
complete stop within a couple of feet.  After the incoming tide floated us 
off we sailed back to the boatyard and had her hauled.  The only damage was 
about 4" of lead missing from the front of the keel, about 5" from the bottom 
and an 18" long scrape along the bottom of the keel.  I replaced the missing
lead with epoxy filler and had a surveyor examine for other damage.  Finding 
none, he stated that "most fin keel boats hitting that hard, would have 
pushed the aft end of their keels up through the hull".

    Since that day I have never followed anybody in unfamiliar waters without 
referring to a chart.

Al

>re .31:
>
>Gee, if you had a Valiant you wouldn't have to worry about where you 
>place the jackstands (big grin). 
>
    
    Silly me, and here I thought with Valiants you had to place jackstands
    in positions which avoid the highest concentration of blisters. ;^)
    
    Seriously though, I would run, not walk from any boat that had hull
    deformation from jackstands. Sabres do have balsa cored hulls (in the
    high stress areas) as well as all horizontal surfaces on deck. There
    should be no deformation, period!
    
    In addition, the weight of the boat is supposed to be on the keel.
    The stands are only for balance and I wouldn't expect that you should
    even be able to tighten one enough to deform a hull. Plus, I've
    seen many boats lifted with hydraulic trailers (same principle) and
    never witnessed anything like this.
    
    Something doesn't sound right here. Did the yard actually tell you that
    the hull would "remember it's shape"? This sounds like a no-brainer for
    a surveyor to sniff out, but why go through the trouble? There's too
    many other boats around for you to waste your time on this one.
    
    J_R

    What is the reputation of  Bayfield, a Canadian boat yard?
    
    The Bayfield 32, is a Cutter rig, with Full Keel, diesel engine and
    a "traditonal" design.
    
    Are they Blue water Boats?
    
    Frank
    

>    What is the reputation of  Bayfield, a Canadian boat yard?
    
I looked at two Bayfield 29's earlier this year. The boats appeared to be
very well built. Everything was throughbolted, and beefy. The cutter rig
was what attracted me to the boat originally.

The interior on the 29 is well thought out, for coastal cruising anyway.

I don't know anything about the performance.
 
>    Are they Blue water Boats?

I think they have the potential to go offshore.

--RS    

    Re: .34
    	I installed a depth transducer through the bottom of my 1972
    Sabre 28. It was solid fiberglass, no core.
    
    	I also had a similar experience regarding a pile of rocks jumping
    out in front of me in the fog. I was glad at the time that I didn't
    wear dentures. The damage was a slight gash in the forward end of my
    keel and the fact that my VHF came un-epoxied from its mounting on an
    overhead horizontal surface (absolutely no structural damage).
    
    -John

    Ok,  I've looked at a bunch more 34s since my last entry.
    It seems there are plenty available!  I've seen several I
    could "make do" with.  ;)  But I'm having trouble making
    the commitment.  Money is an issue, as I'm sure everyone can
    appreciate -- I'm just not confident of the market and job
    security is an issue.  In addition, I'm not sure what to offer if 
    I do take the plunge.  It doesn't seem like boats are moving *at all*.
    The brokers like to tell you success stories, but honestly, I don't
    think a single boat I've looked at has sold!  
    
    I want to get a great deal, but I'm just not sure where to start.  Several 
    people have said I should offer no more than $1K per foot.  For a Sabre in
    very good shape?!  If I were selling a boat, I think I'd shoot the 
    SOB that made an offer that low.  
    
    I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts/rationalizations on making
    an offer.  As a for-instance, the nicest Sabre 34 I've seen is an '84
    in excellent shape and reasonably well equipped.  The owner
    is selling it directly, and he's asking $59K.  Where would you start?
    Or how about a re-fit case for which they're asking $39K?
    
    I know this is VERY subjective, but that's why I'm asking.  If I get
    a few opinions, I'll try to "take an average" and thus get
    some objective input.
    
    Thanks,
    Dean
    
    PS  I looked at a newer 34 and liked it quite a bit more than the
        older version.  The only thing I don't like it the over-sized
        transom.  One option I'm considering is holding off for a year 
        and looking for a newer version.  May be the most sane under
        the current circumstances.

Assumption one: Buying and owning a boat is an economically irrational act. 
Any financial analysis whatsoever will inevitably result in the conclusion 
that one's money should be spent in some other manner.

Assumption two: Owning a boat can be extremely satisfying emotionally.

Assumption three: Owning a boat can be emotionally and financially
devastating. 

Assumption four: Owning a boat will require an inordinate amount of time 
be spent maintaining and repairing the boat, especially when compared to 
the amount of time actually spent sailing.


Short answer: If the price you pay for the boat feels right emotionally, 
then it is the right price.

Long answer: Since the Sabre 34 is still in production, I would do the 
following:

1. Go to a Sabre dealer and determine the delivered price of a new Sabre 34
with all of the factory options you would like to have. 

2. Get out all of your discount catalogs and determine the new price of 
everything you would like to have on board and that you don't already 
own. This would include electronics (VHF, loran, sailing instruments, 
etc), ground tackle (multiple anchors and rodes, etc), sails, spare 
parts, galley equipment (pots and pans, dishes, flatware, etc), 
electrical system upgrades (high-output alternator, regulator, monitor, 
etc), autopilot and/or windvane, dinghy (including good oars and an 
outboard), charts, and on and on and on. The total of these prices can
very easily exceed $10 000 and without much difficulty reach $25 000. 

3. The sum of the price of the boat and all the equipment you want is 
the cost of buying a new boat. Horrendous, right?

4. Decide what you consider to be the useful life of everything on the 
boat that will eventually need replacement. This includes engine, 
standing and running rigging, gelcoat, pumps, cabin cushions, etc, as 
well as everything in section 2. Now guess the cost of replacing or 
repairing these things. From this determine (guess really) the total 
annual depreciation.

Some examples: 

  The life of a fresh water cooled engine is maybe 15 years. Replacement 
  cost: $6000 and up. Cost per year: $400 minimum. 

  The life of standing and running rigging varies considerably, but at a 
  guess $1000 per year.

  Gelcoat needs painting (at $100 per foot minimum) after 10 to 15 years. 
  Paint needs repainting after roughly five years.

  The foam and fabric in cabin custions wears out. Replacement is very 
  expensive.

  Sails and electronics last maybe ten years. 

Assume that a new Sabre 34 is $100 000 (I have no idea what one really 
costs). Assume that the total annual depreciation is $5000 (a wild 
guess that feels low). So if you're looking at a eight-year old boat, 
the most you should pay is $60 000 for a well-equipped boat (ie, it has 
everything you want and maybe even more) in excellent condition (ie, in 
the condition you'd like it to be in).

But ..... From this price subtract the cost of buying any equipment you 
want that doesn't come with the boat (eg, a storm anchor and rode). 
Subtract the cost of replacing anything you can't live with (eg, you 
can't abide the alcohol stove and will immediately replace it with a 
propane stove or you really can't live with the too-small non-self-tailing 
winches on the boat). Subtract to cover any unusual wear and tear (eg, 
the faded-to-pink red gelcoat needs painting now, not in five years).
Subtract a slush fund to cover anything you or the surveyor have
missed. 

From this comes a should-not-offer-more-than price, which may well be 
ridiculously low. That should be the seller's problem, not yours, 
especially in today's market. If the seller is serious and realistic, 
he/she shouldn't offended by a low offer and should only regard it as a 
starting point for negotiations. Here's where your research and cost 
investigations may help. If the seller won't compromise, keep looking.

Alan

PS I haven't done this analyis for my boat. I really don't want to know 
the depressing result.

    >    I do take the plunge.  It doesn't seem like boats are moving *atall*.
    >    The brokers like to tell you success stories, but honestly, I don't
    >    think a single boat I've looked at has sold!  
    
    Regardless of the state of the boat marketplace, nothing much moves
    this time of year. Buyers don't usually make deals just in time to pick
    up decommissioning & storage costs. Although the inverse of this is
    also true; it's a great time to make an offer to a seller who would
    like to avoid these expenses. Whatever activity there is won't pick up
    until after Christmas and buyers start getting 'the urge' fueled by the
    the start of the winter boatshow season.
     
>    I want to get a great deal, but I'm just not sure where to start.  Several 
>    people have said I should offer no more than $1K per foot.  For a Sabre in
>    very good shape?!  If I were selling a boat, I think I'd shoot the 
>    SOB that made an offer that low.  
    
    Yep, $1K per foot would be great. Trouble is you can't apply this rule
    across all types of boats. I'm sure you'd find dozens of J-24 owners
    who'd jump at an offer like this. On the other hand I'd like to find a
    Little Harbor 53 owner (just one) who thinks the same way. Have I got a
    deal for him!
    
    With Sabre's it's all a matter of age and condition. I'm sure that
    there are some old 34's that should go for less that $34K. Try offering
    me $42K for my Sabre. You never know 'til you ask. ;^)
    
    
    >    I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts/rationalizations on making
    >    an offer.  As a for-instance, the nicest Sabre 34 I've seen is an '84
    >    in excellent shape and reasonably well equipped.  The owner
    >    is selling it directly, and he's asking $59K.  Where would you start?
    >    Or how about a re-fit case for which they're asking $39K?
    
    First, make sure you have a clear understanding of what you can afford.
    This ought to be obvious, but I suspect many a buyer forgets this
    little detail until it's too late. 
    
    Then find out all you can about the seller. Why is the boat for sale?
    There could be a number of reasons why the seller might let someone
    'steal' his pride and joy beyond blisters or carrying two boat loans:
    Estate sale, divorce, health, bankruptcy, etc.  There are any number of
    ways to get this sort of information directly and indirectly. The
    seller, broker, marina, yard workers,  launch drivers, fuel dock
    attendants, owners of neighboring boats, are all candidates. Ask around
    and crosscheck the answers.
    
    [As a side story: Last year I heard about a Cambria 44 for sale, asking
    $200k. The catch was that the deal was only good for about 3 weeks. The
    owner's house of cards was about to come tumbling down and he was
    grasping at straws to save his company from bankruptcy. He failed, the
    bank now owns the boat and it's on the market, asking high $300K's.] 
    
    As far as the two boats you describe, who knows? The $39K boat might go
    for $25K. The $59K owner might not take a penny less than $57.5K.
    
    You have to decide what the boat is worth to you, and WALK AWAY if you
    can't get it for that.
    
    Making offers can be handled several ways. You can offer much less than
    the price you are willing to pay and then waltz thru a series of counter
    offers to get where you want to be, or you can make a single
    non-negotiable offer. Either way, you've got to be prepared to walk
    away. It is impossible to insult the seller. Unless you're trying to.
    Suppose you cannot (will not?) spend more than, pick a number, $45K.
    I don't see anything wrong with making a firm offer for exactly that
    amount to the seller of the $59K boat. And tell him what you are doing.
    What if he says yes? No harm done if he says no.
    
>    PS  I looked at a newer 34 and liked it quite a bit more than the
>        older version.  The only thing I don't like it the over-sized
>        transom.  One option I'm considering is holding off for a year 
>        and looking for a newer version.  May be the most sane under
>        the current circumstances.
    
    The relative difference in Mk I & Mk II prices is not going to go away
    in a year.
    
    
    JR

    The value of the boat is based on supply and demand.  
    
    Currently, the asking price for a boat means nothing,
    Because offers and selling prices are much lower than the "asking price".
    
    In all cases, start with a low offer, 40% below asking price.
    So, that '84 TARTAN 34 with an asking price of $50K, offer $30K (be
    bold)  and settle in between.  (Make sure you get a diesel engine) 
    
    Frank

    The market, in my estimate is horrible for sellers!  $1K/foot seems to
    be a reasonable starting price, especially since it seems there are
    several boats you would be happy with.  I'd start at the top of your
    list and work down- one of these owners is desparate to unload his
    boat- you just have to find the right one.  I'd be careful of plannng
    to upgrade the older boat- new sails, Awlgrip'd hull/deck, etc. can add
    up real fast on a 35' boat.  That $25K 1977 34'r may be $39K real fast. 
    Brokers are hungary too.  If the broker is part of a yard, get them to
    pick up the balance of winter storage, spring launch, bottom paint and
    hull wax & clean.  My dad just bought a Freedom 30 last week for 55%
    of the asking price and the broker is doing all the above plus some
    misc. stuff.

    I finally sold my 84 Hunter 37 cutter last September.  The Buck book
    was 48-54K.  I settled for 35K. Definitely a buyers market. 
    
    The $1K/foot of .42 was pretty close.
    
                                     

    
    Buy or hold, don't sell? You think the market will improve? When do
    you think the divergence between Buck book and actual sales price began
    in earnest?

re market improvement: There was a brief item in a recent Practical 
Sailor reporting that some company in the marine business has forecast 
that new sailboat construction this year will be about half what it was 
two years ago. Doesn't sound much like an improving market.

    Word has it that the Bank of Boston shut Sabre Yacht's doors yesterday.
    
    [BoB apparently owns the Casco Bank of Maine which financed Sabre.]
    
    JR

    Sad news!  And confirmed.  The doors are closed, even so they
    have some boats on the production line.  Hopefully they'll find
    a way to re-structure.
    
    The boat-building industry is truly decimated.
    
    
    I had another look at the Sabre 32 I'd mentioned before.  She was 
    finally hauled.  The underbody is in excellent shape, so all 
    around, this is one of the nicest boats I've seen.  I'd like 
    something a bit bigger, but if they really want to get rid of her 
    and would take a low offer, I'd be happy.  Trouble is, I can't even
    make a low offer now.  Took a beating with the recent dive in DEC 
    stock -- as I'm sure many of you can relate.
    
    But I can't complain -- at least I'm getting paid!
    
    All for now,
    Dean

    Anyone ever hear of a "Puzzle 36?"  A broker wants me to
    take a look at one.  He sent the line drawings, and her
    desing is heavy IOR.  Also has sail drive, but the broker
    says she's an extremely well built boat, ala Baltic/Swan,
    but because it isn't well know, going cheap.  Hmmm.
    Well, I'm still looking, if not able to buy at the moment.
    Anyone familiar with this Swedish builder?
    
    Dean

    Looked at the Puzzle last Friday.  She is a well built boat.
    Lots of nicely joined woodwork.  Rugged layup.  Stainless lined 
    ice-box was typical of detail.  The interior layout of the main saloon,
    head, and forward cabin are very nice, but the hull's shape 
    is ungainly.  Heavily biased towards IOR.  The boat has not 
    been cared for either, and the sail-drive was nasty looking.  
    Fun to see, but not for me.

    Looks like Sabre Yachts is back on line. 
    
    As expected, a consortium of Sabre owners headed by a Connecticut
    dealer, put together a proposal to re-finance Hewson several weeks ago.
    
    One day before the deal was to be finalized, an individual from Florida
    (with some sort of connection to Federal Express money) made a surprise
    appearance on the scene. He won and I'm told that the doors are back open,
    or are about to be soon.
    
    JR

    re -.1
    
    Yesterday I received a flyer in the mail from East Coast Yachts, in
    Maine.  The major news in the flyer deals with TPB, INC purchasing the
    assets of Sabre Yachts from Casco Northern Bank.
    
    "The TPB, INC. investor group which is responsible for the purchase,
    includes several friends and loyal owners of Sabre yachts from
    Connecticut and Florida.  The group is led by Ed Miller of Coral
    Gables, Florida.  The foremost mission of the new group is to build
    sabre Yachts of the same high quality for which Sabre has become known
    worldwide.
    
    ...Roger hewson is expected to be involved as a consultant and designer
    with the new company. 
    
    ...TPB,INC will be greatly expanding international marketing of the
    Sabre line beyond their present market which includes Japan, Italy and
    Northern Europe.  ..."
    
    djc 

    Re: "Sabre Quality"
    
    Although not making any offers at present, I'm still
    looking.  I saw something last weekend that gives me pause
    about Sabre's.  I was near Bristol at a Brewer's Yard and
    saw a Sabre 38 with some blister repair in progress.  They
    had grit-blasted the entire hull below the waterline and
    that's how I saw her.  The pock-holes in the hull were the
    *worst* I've ever seen.  *All* over the hull.  Some were the diameter
    of a nickle and very deep.  In addition, the layup was all matt for
    at least the 3/8ths inch revealed in the depths of the pocks.
    Very unimpressive, even disappointing, and even a bit scarey.
    
    I've seen blistering in several Sabre's I've looked at -- enough
    to believe this is a typical problem, though hopefully not to
    the extent of this poor boat!!!
    
    I'm glad they're back in business, though...
    
    Dean

    
    I haven't had any personal experience with blisters in Sabres. None of
    mine ever displayed the problem nor have I ever actually seen a Sabre
    with them. (My 42 just went through a clean survey last week.) I am
    aware of a couple of 36 owners who had problems but there may
    have been extenuating circumstances. 

    Blistering crosses all sorts of builder boundaries. There are a couple
    of notable exceptions going back before much was known about the
    existence of the problem. Some builders had the misfortune of molding
    whole series of bad boats due to unlucky choices of resins and/or
    processes. Sabre wasn't one of these. 

    >                              The pock-holes in the hull were the
    > *worst* I've ever seen.  *All* over the hull.  Some were the diameter
    > of a nickle and very deep.  In addition, the layup was all matt for
    > at least the 3/8ths inch revealed in the depths of the pocks.
    > Very unimpressive, even disappointing, and even a bit scarey.

    This is hard to judge since I don't know the extent of your blister
    inspection expertise. Since blistering tends to be more prevalent in
    warmer climates where boats are left in the water year round there's
    quite a cottage industry here in Annapolis doing this sort of repair.
    Nickle size doesn't seem too bad from what I've seen. Sandblasted boats
    tend to look worse than peeled boats too.

    I'm hardly one to defend Sabre's "Quality" these days since I think
    they've regressed in the last four or five years. "Crafted with fierce
    Maine pride" will elicit a sarcastic yawn from me. However, Sabre's
    fibreglass layup schedule is generally accepted to be one of the better
    in the industry. I doubt that the hull was mostly matt. 

    > I've seen blistering in several Sabre's I've looked at -- enough
    > to believe this is a typical problem, though hopefully not to
                           ^^^^^^^

    Dean, you have to admit that your scientific sample came about as a
    result of a Sabre focused search this winter. ;^)
    
    JR

    PS: I've just experienced the "second happiest day" in the life of a
    boat owner  again. "Shibumi" is off to a life of leisure in the fresh
    waters of Lake Michigan.

    I'll leave the analysis of the used boat market, BUC prices, and Sabre
    quality, etc. to others. But the selling price was *well* above BUC,
    *very* close  (within a single digit percentage) to the original
    purchase price in 1987, and, if I factor in the "profit" from 5 weeks
    of charting in Maine a couple of years  ago, I come out ahead. I know.
    I know. I could have left the money in the bank  and have been in even
    better shape. Then too, I could have "invested" it in Digital stock.
    All in all, not a bad outcome.

    Congrats John!  I Hope you manage to find something
    else to keep your feet wet.  ;)
    
    Yes, my search has been Sabre biased, and about 1/3 of
    the boats I've seen had blisters.  So I'm just saying 
    Sabres do have a problem.  I don't know how that correlates
    to the rest of the world.
    
    Please, no jokes about DEC stock.  I own way too much...
    
    ;)

    It was sort of like saying:
    
    All the boats I saw undergoing blister repairs in Southwest Harbor
    and Bass Harbor recently were Hinckleys. Looks like Hinckley has a
    blister problem.
    
    (For the uninitiated, Hinckley has quite an extensive refurb business
     going in parallel with their production work.)
    
    John

    No, it wasn't anything like saying that.
    I've seen Sabres all over the place, and only one
    was having work done at a yard.  (No Sabre affilliation
    that I'm aware of, BTW.)  Whenever I'm in a boat yard,
    I look for Sabres.  I've seen lots of Sabre underbodies with
    evidence of blisters -- most in storage, not getting yard work.
    
    It's all accademic anyway.  I'm as likely to buy *any* boat as
    I am to sprout sails with DEC stock evidently heading down the
    tubes further...
    
    :|
    
    

    Who said wooden boats are the only high upkeep/labor boats when all 
    these blistering problems seem to be prevalent on fiberglass hulls?
    
    Jeff

    
    
    Well, I may be taking the plunge this year, so I contacted a broker to
    send me a list of boats in my price/size/requirement range.  The result
    is a list from which I recognize only a few boats, some I know a little
    about, and some I know nothing about it.
    
    I don't want to waste time drivng to look at boats that will not be
    interesting to me at all, so I'd appreciate it if you could comment on
    the following boats (comments like "well built", "heavy but slow",
    "don't even bother", "strictly coastal" will do just fine).  FWIW, I
    want a relatively heavy boat (D/L ~230 or higher), stiff boat with a
    relatively large cockpit (I have a 3 year old...).  Speed is secondary
    to stability & seaworthiness.....
    
    What, then, can you tell me of the following?
    
    Morgan 36
    G & S Custom Marine 34
    Tartan T/10
    Soverel 33
    C&C 34
    Endeavor 32
    Elite 32 
    Evelyn 32
    Uniflite 32 (I think this may be the same as Valiant, but I'm not
    sure...)
    C.E. Ryder 31
    Westerly 31
    
    
    
    So, which should I look at?  (the list is longer but I know some of
    them....)

    Frederico,
             Westerly are along with Moody's the most popular boats 
    sold in the UK. They both build good strong seaworthy boats. 
    Westerley have built a number boats at 31 feet over the years. 
    What age or type is it ? It could be a Pentland (Centre Cockpit0 
    they also did a rear cockpit version on the same hull, or newer 
    Tempest. If you can find out the age I will attempt to find out 
    more about the boat.
    
    
    Pete

    The C&C 34's I've been on would meet your needs. While not incredibly
    stiff, they're not real tender either. If you're over 6 ft in height,
    expect to bump your head on the coachroof.
    
    Good luck! It's a great feeling when you *finally* find the one to buy!
    Robert

The Westerly boat listed is on the older side (1976), the model
name is something like "Westerly B...." (after the b it was cut off
by the computer printout.  It's allegedly 31' long (exactly, but this
could be fiction), and it ahs a Volvo 23 HP diesel.

F.

    I'm not sure the Soverel 33 is at all what you're looking for.  It's
    primarily a coastal racing-type boat.  They're fast, but lightweight
    and not as sturdy as some of those other boats you mentioned.
    
    ... Bob
    

    The Westerley will be a Berwick. Aft cockpit version of the Pentland.
    It will be on the heavy side and thus liable to be slow compared with
    the modern equivilent. They are considered to be very safe and easy to
    maintain. They still fetch relatively high prices in the UK. There are
    a number in my marina and I berth next to a Pentland that has beeen
    sailed extensively in the English Channel. On a boat that age though I
    would get a surveyor to check the moisture content in the hull. If you
    want further data please mail me.
    
    
    cheers
    
    Pete

    
    	I would elimate the Tartan T10 and the Evelyn 32 from your list as
    	well as the Soverel, for the same reasons. The T10 seems built
    	pretty well, but more a racer. The Evelyn 32 is a rocket, but
    	weighs less than my (Beneteau 325) keel; very thin skinned!
    	Enjoy your search.
    	Scott.

Deleted those boats from my list of contenders.....

Saw a Bristol 32 yesterday, and it was a very nice, well built
modereately heavy boat.

I had never been inside one, and several things spoke to me
and said "don't buy a boat like me".  Maybe I'm crazy, maybe I've
spent too much time on heavily compartmentalized ships (warships) but
something seems really wrong (and unseaworthy) about having the
lazarettes open up into the engine compartment (which has access
to the main bilge and to the cabin compartment).

Also, for a boat with a full keel, a pretty wide beam, and a bunch
of freeboard, it has remarkably little room below.  The dreaded
lazarettes take up so much space!  The boat is unusable below
aft of the companionway ladder.....

Not for me.  Odd compromises.

Tomorrow I look at some C&C.

This is a lot of fun.

F.

Has anybody andy comments on Endeavors?  I saw an Endeavor 32
last week, and was impressed.

Nice layout, apparently nice construction.

Anybody own one?  How do they sail?

F.

    
    I have sailed an endevour 42? its been a few years... it was
    a goodsized center cockpit ketch. Reasonably good up wind, good
    down wind. GREAT interior layout for comfort. Just a bit beamy
    though. Overall... I'd sail it anytime... but i wouldn't buy one.

    I'm considering making an offer on an Endeavor 33 1984. I would like to
    hear any comments on this boat pro and con. 
    Why wouldn't you buy one?