Conference unifix::sailing

    Just a note on Thurston. The primary forces there now are the grandsons
    of the founder. Steven leads the sail work and his brother Neil heads
    up the canvas work and also does sail work. We had then make a dodger
    for our ODay 222. Custom designed to my request modified by Neil's
    knowledge. Outstanding job and the price was very competitive. We have
    had a number of larger boats hail us to inquire about the dodger.
    
    The only sail work they have done for us was a cleaning and minor
    repair. Well done. My feeling is that they fit the old bank commercial,
    "Big enough to serve you, Small enough to know you".
    
    Fred

     >>	   Does anyone out there have the experience of changing their boat
     >>	   over from  standard  sails to fully battened sails?

     We changed over to a fully battened mainsail in 1989 on the J/36 I
     usually race on.
 
     >>	   How much did they improve your performance?

     It improved our performance noticeably, particularly in light air.
     A fully battened mainsail retains it's shape better than a main with
     regular length battens when the wind's light.

     >>	   Do they require more repairs...how much?

     Our experience is that sail repairs are about the same ... i.e. the
     full length battens do not effect the type of wear and tear on our
     mainsail.

     >>	   Is sail trim more difficult without luffing or do telltales
     >>    suffice?

     Our usual mainsail trimmer seems to think the full battens make the job
     easier.  Personally, I think it's easier to see the shape of the draft
     with the full battens.
     
     >>	   How does reefing them under sudden strong wind conditions work?

     It works the same as reefing a normally battened mainsail.  Actually, 
     the first batten is above the reefing point on our mainsail, so the full
     length battens do not impact our reefing in any way.

     >>	   Would you make this change again?

     Yes.
		
     >>	   Do they jam while being lowered or raised?

     We do have to exercise a little more care when raising the mainsail,
     but I wouldn't exactly call it a problem.  There is about a half-inch of
     space between the end of the batten pocket and the luff rope.  This is
     normally plenty of space to prevent the battens from affecting the hoist
     as long as you are reasonably careful.  Never experienced any problems
     lowering the sail.

     >>	   Do they last as long or longer than regular sails?

     Ours is a racing (kevlar) main.  It's on its third season.  And we're
     still winning races with it.  It's held up better than our last kevlar
     mainsail (with regular battens) did under the same conditions.

     >>    Running performance?
     >>	   Reaching performance?

     No appreciable difference.  I think it's more important on a run to
     keep the fully-battened mainsail off your spreaders, as the panels
     appear to have more tension than they would with a normally battened
     mainsail ... but this is simply my perception.

     >>    Close hauled performance?

     Easier to trim ... the draft is much easier to see when you have
     battens defining the shape for you.

     >>	   Light air performance?

     Holds it's shape better ... in 3 kts of air you still have an airfoil
     up there instead of a sagging piece of material.

     >>	   Heavy air performance?

     Doesn't flog as much on the tacks ... which affects the wear-n-tear
     of the sail.

     Personally, I'm sold on the advantages.  Judging from the increasing
     number of racing boats out there with fully battened mains during the
     past two seasons, I suspect I'm not the only one.

     ... Bob

    Being a former Freedom owner, I am partial to full battens in
    mainsails.
    
    Full battens don't require lazy jacks.  But, when a boat has both full
    length battens and lazy jacks, getting rid of the mainsail is a real
    snap.
    
    Some folks motor with their main still up.  (Ughh)  Full battens help
    avoid some of the sounds of an expensive sail being beaten to death.
    
    My boat and sails are 1983.  I bought it four years ago, and had the
    main converted to full length battens before I sailed it for the first
    time.  I wasn't pleased with these battens or the shape in the main.  This 
    past season I had Loomis and Pingree in Salem, Ma. re-retrofit the main 
    with full lenght battens.  People look at the new shape and comment about 
    how itlooks like the pictures in the brochures.  I finally have a great 
    shape in the main.  My boat is a C + C 29 with about 165 square feet of
    area.  Four full lenght battens were somewhere in the vicinity of
    $250-300, I tend to forget numbers of dollars spent on this stuff.  
    
    If anything, full battens should increase the useful life of a main
    since they help it maintain its shape, and can help avoid damage caused
    by sail flogging.
    
    Performance?  PHRF used to think they may have enhanced performance. 
    For a year or so there was a penalty for boats with full battens. 
    Experience has shown that there is probably not a true advantage for
    full battens.  Some racers use 'em, some don't.
    
    Trimming a main with full battens does take some getting used to, since
    it won't luff unless you're grossly out of trim.  Tell tales on the
    face of the sail, and especially on the ends of the batten pockets are
    very useful, maybe needed, in order to properly trim the sail.
    
    Would I do it again?  In a minute.  But, not all battens are created
    equal.  Not all sail makers give the same attention to battens they do
    to sails.  The people who made my sails originally did a super job. 
    They are the folks who installed the rotten battens.
    
    HAARSTICK make a lot of the sails for Freedom yachts.  They know full
    length battens.
    
    Full length battens can be installed a number of ways, perpendicular to
    the leech of the sail, or perpendicular to the boom.  
    
    The slides on my battens work fine, and they are not the god-awful
    expensive batt-cars.  The sail goes up and down very easily, as long as
    I don't snag a batten in a lazy jack.
    
    Reefing is no sweat, I don't know why there'd be a concern in that
    regard.  If the reef point is near a batten, the batten may actually
    help give the foot a better shape.
    
    djc
    
    
    

    As an aside, you do not need lazy jacks for a full battened main but
    they are handy.  If lazy jacks are installed they can make your life a
    whole lot easier when short handed.  Keeps everything in relatively the
    same place.  As a foot note to Bob's answers, caution must be exercised
    when raising that you do not get them caught outside any of the lines
    or wires streaming aft of the mast.  This includes lazy jacks, running
    back stays etc.  This is usually only a problem if you hoist more off
    the wind than normal.  I also race on a boat with a retrofitted full
    battened system.  Highly recommended.  
    
    Brian

    I have a friend who used to actively race cats and for a while he had a
    full batten main for the boat.  I want to re-iterate what was said
    about the battens.  He spent many hours getting them right.  He
    actually shaved the thickness down at different areas on the batten so
    that the stiffness varied along the length.  Doing this he was able to
    even better help the shape of the main(actually support the shape built
    into the main).  He found the effort spent on the battens to make a
    huge difference.

    I have a cruising boat which I converted to full battens and lazy
    jacks.
    
    I love full battens under sail.  Nice pocket in light air, no flogging
    in heavy stuff.
    
    Raising and lowering the main has proven a little tricky.  I'm on a
    mooring in an area with a current running so I'm not always pointed
    into the wind.  This means putting the sail up at the mooring can be
    difficult or impossible since the battens will catch on the lazy jacks
    unless your boom is lined up just right.
    
    Also, I had to add roller slugs for the full battens since the added
    weight of the battens cocked the slugs slightly in the mast track and
    wouldn't let the sail drop.  The foller slugs help considerably, but
    it still usually requires someone going forward to drop the top third
    of the sail.

The Condor 40 I sail on has 'em; great things, and I'd definitely go for 
them.

Main argument for in my mind is support more sail area in the roach.  If 
you're retrofitting, this may be moot.  In a multi, it's key stuff.

Sail control is definitely enhanced, given that we don't have zillions of 
strings to control sailshape (just dozens....)

The usual argument against has been initial expense and weight aloft.  
But if you can get the same sail area on a shorter stick, some might argue 
it's a six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Given that they're supposed to last longer since they flog less, if you're 
retrofitting, that leaves weight aloft as apparently the more important
question. Undoubtedly the fiberglass battens of a few years ago (much
avoirdupois aloft) have been superceded by lighter materials.... 

J.

re .last:

More roach area? Not quite the thing for those boats which have 
excessive weather helm. Less would be better for balance. Of course, 
full battens don't preclude little or no roach area. 

John, you did forget to mention that the Condor also has the problem of 
snagging the battens in the lazy jacks, at least occasionally.

Are lazy jacks essential with full battens? I would think that when
lowering the mainsail, there would be some flogging, and getting whacked
in the head by even a light full-length batten might cause serious
injury. Presumably lazy jacks, properly rigged, would contain the 
flogging battens. Any comments? 

OK, so the first reef is below the first batten. What about the second 
and third reefs (which any mainsail used offshore should have)? How hard 
is putting in the second or third reef? Do the full-length battens make 
for additional difficulties or problems? I would think that they'd make 
in harder to secure the foot of the sail to the boom. Leaving the foot 
loose would be much fun if a wave comes aboard and fills the sail.

Alan

BTW, my assumption in .25 (?) was that retrofitting likely means no change 
in area or roach.  Cost, convenience, durability, maintenance, quiet and
weight aloft are the only real tradeoffs; I presumed performance to be 
close enough to equivalent to ignore.

re -.1,

>>>  John, you did forget to mention that the Condor also has the problem of 
>>>  snagging the battens in the lazy jacks, at least occasionally.

The lazyjacks are a minor problem in comparison to the benefits; snagging 
the backstay is far more of a hassle, experienced on almost every upwind 
tack with the backstay is in a tightened state.

>>>  Are lazy jacks essential with full battens? 

The best full-battens/lazyjack system I've seen was a single line on each 
side.  Adjustment as needed would be simple.

>>>  OK, so the first reef is below the first batten. What about the second 
>>>  and third reefs (which any mainsail used offshore should have)? How hard 
>>>  is putting in the second or third reef?  Do the full-length battens make 
>>>  for additional difficulties or problems? I would think that they'd make 
>>>  in harder to secure the foot of the sail to the boom. Leaving the foot 
>>>  loose would be much fun if a wave comes aboard and fills the sail.

I don't remember the details, unfortunately (too little sailing this 
summer....aargh!), but having sailed with two reefs in the main, it wasn't 
any particular problem to get them in.  Reeflines go round the whole 
bundle, and the foot of the sail is rather neatly held without as much 
strain at the individual reefpoints as otherwise.  

J.

RE: .9,

>>>  BTW, my assumption in .25 (?) ...

.7 is more like it.

Mind at sea,  J.

    re: .8
    
    My lazy jacks used to catch when raising the main, but after much
    thinking as a re-layout, they rarely catch now.  They never catch
    lowering the main.
    
    Before the above re-layout, I went a season without them.  Don't
    remember any lumps on the head, but it is MUCH harder to flake the
    main without them as the full battens somehow seemed to make the main
    fall all over the place.  I'm told some people use the reef lines as an
    aid; but my experience is that lazy jacks are far better.
    
    On reefing itself, I think it's easier with the lazy jacks.  Contrary
    to Alan's guess, it is quite easy to secure the foot to the boom as the
    lazy jacks keep it all more or less tidy until I get the sail ties
    tied.  As with flaking the main, I set the battens precisely on top of
    the boom when I reef.  I've never had to triple reef in a real storm,
    but I've practised in 30K wind; again lazy jacks and full battens tend
    to keep things snug until the sail ties are tight.
    
    -gayn
    

    I have to disagree with Bob Bailey in his reply.  Fully battenned mains
    are great for cruising boats precisely because they DO improve sail
    longevity.  Less flogging.  Also because they improve gross sail trim.
    
    What do I mean by that?  In talking to several sailmakers at the Volvo
    regatta last weekend I heard the same thing.  A battened sail looks
    great to the eye even when it isn't trimmed properly.  Some of this is
    overcome by the shape built into it but for racing it isn't ideal.  For
    somebody who doesn't want to fuss too much with main trim, that's
    great.  Several boats had one full batten across the top to hold the
    leach tight and control flogging.  This was recommended as a good
    compromise for a racing sail.
    
    I also disagree with Bob that battens keep the shape in light air. 
    They look like they are, but again, a properly trimmed main will fill
    in less than three knots of air.  Only if trimmed properly with the
    vang set to support the weight of the boom.  With the battens you have
    no idea if you are properly trimmed.  Okay, maybe not NO idea, but you
    can "cheat" and still look good but not be fast.
    
    As for seeing draft, a draft stripe printed into the sail will do the
    same thing.  In fact, it is harder to move draft around in a battened
    main than conventionally battened main.
    
    The proff is in the pudding.  None of the top finishers in last
    weekends regatta had fully battenned mains.  If they worked better they
    all would have them.  Battened mains last longer and are easier to trim
    if you don't care about the last 25% of efficiency.  Period.
    
    Dave

    ... as you say Dave, the proof is in the pudding.  Since the beginning
    of the '89 season, when we got our fully battened main, we went from
    being the dog of the fleet to being a consistent top finisher in our
    class.  That's 2.5 seasons now ... well over a hundred races.
    
    Can't do that giving up 25% efficiency in your main ... 
    
    								... Bob
    

    Bob, Bob, Bob.  Your new battened main is far more efficient than your
    old main.  My point was that for serious racing it is much harder to
    get final trim out of a fully battened main than a conventional main.
    The fully battened main doesn't provide the visual clues that you
    aren't maxed out for speed.
    
    Also, since the beginning of the '89 season you have a new main,
    learned how to sail your boat with the help of Marco, and spent time in
    class B where you are at the bottom of the rating band.  In light air
    regions (such as M'head) it is better to be at the bottom of the rating
    band as the light air makes the clock run faster, making it harder for
    higher rated (in PHRF terms) boats to save their time on you.  In
    short, you'd have done as well with the new main being conventional. 
    Give your skipper and crew some credit!
    
    Dave

    Dave, Dave, Dave ... I'll buy part of your argument, but not all of it
    (particularly the part about learning how to sail our boat from Marco,
    IMO he was as much of a hindrance as a help, and we promptly discarded
    most of what he "taught" us).  As you know, there's a huge difference
    in the mindset aboard our boat, as opposed to yours (which is why we
    are disagreeing on this particular subject, among others).
    
    The part I'll buy is the viewpoint of a "serious" racer.  However,
    based on the original noter's description of his boat, I doubt he was
    asking the question from a "serious" racer's viewpoint ... besides, I
    never claimed to be "serious" about racing.  When I entered my reply in
    .2, I was trying to look at it from the perspective of someone who owns
    a 32', 6.5 ton boat with lazy jacks, as the base noter described ...
    not from the perspective of someone who owns a boat which is a pure
    racing machine.  Obviously that perspective is going to have a huge impact
    on how much importance you place on the pros and cons of the type of 
    sail you consider buying.
    
    For example, in .12 you disagreed that a fully battened main held its
    shape better in light air, saying that a properly trimmed conventional
    main would do as well, as long as you used the vang to support the
    weight of the boom.  This assumes that the boat is equipped with either
    a quick vang or a hydraulic vang.  Most cruising boats don't come
    equipped with solid vangs ... neither does Wags.  Therefore you
    wouldn't be able to use such a tactic to put a shape in your mainsail.
    In this case, a fully battened main offers an advantage over a 
    conventional one.
    
    But I disagree with your statement that fully battened mains are fine
    if you don't care about the final 25% efficiency of the sail.  No amount
    of skipper and crew work could make you successful if you were giving up
    that amount of efficiency, no matter what you rate relative to the rest
    of the fleet or what kind of air you are sailing in.  This is especially
    true on a fractionally rigged boat, such as ours or yours, since most of
    your power comes from your mainsail.
    
    I realize there are many factors that accounted for the success we've
    enjoyed since buying that sail.  However, I also realize that the sail
    is one of the major factors.  This has been proven on several occasions
    when we were placed in A fleet and sailed past boats which owed us many
    seconds per mile (such as Wildside, Claddagh, and Coalition).  The
    advantages you pointed out did not exist in those cases, and yet we had
    as much, or more boat speed than those boats did, even though we were
    supposed to be a slower boat.  You simply can't argue with those kind
    of results ... particularly since in many cases those boats carried
    more talent aboard than we did.  The variable was boatspeed, plain and
    simple.
    
    Also, as you point out, battens do increase the longevity of your sail. 
    When you are paying almost $5K for a sail, I'd consider that a fairly
    huge advantage ... and believe me, of late I am looking at our next
    purchase from a completely different perspective ... ;^)
    
    Of course there are tradeoffs, which is why not everybody goes one way
    or the other.  And we can disagree till the wind stops blowing, and
    both of us can have valid points from our particular perspectives.  But
    the questions I was answering, as asked by the base noter, were not from
    a pure racer's viewpoint ... at least I didn't think so based on the
    clues he gave us about his boat.
    
    ... Bob
    

    Glad to see your incident didn't reduce your argumentiveness (?)!
    
    I realize the original note wasn't at all racing oriented.  Just trying
    to inject a little controversy into an otherwise sedate note!
    
    BTW, don't you have to have a solid vang according to many long
    distance race requirements?  It's considered a safety feature to
    prevent the boom from flying into the cockpit if your main halyard
    breaks.
    
    Dave

    Yup, it's a requirement for many long distance races ... which is one
    reason why WAGS has never done a Halifax or Corinthian 200.
    
    Nope, the incident" didn't reduce my argumentativeness at all.  That'd
    take a rock up side the head, not down along the keel ... ;^)
    
    ... Bob
    

re .16 (and .17): 
    
>>>    BTW, don't you have to have a solid vang according to many long
>>>    distance race requirements?  It's considered a safety feature to
>>>    prevent the boom from flying into the cockpit if your main halyard
>>>    breaks.
    
Uh, why is a solid vang required? My topping lift is rigged as a spare 
main halyard -- it runs from the outer end of the boom to a masthead 
sheave, down to a turning block at the deck, and back to a sheet stopper 
in front of the halyard winch at the cockpit. Just keep the slack out
(easy) and the boom stays up if the main halyard breaks. Simple, cheap,
and redundant. 

signed,

low technology, low budget cruising sailor

    Right, Alan.  That's an alternative.  You can have a permanently rigged
    topping lift of the same size as your halyard.  Racing boats "usually"
    don't have the redundant sheave at the mast crane nor the desire to
    have a line beating the roach of the main to death.  Cruising sails
    don't usually have the large roach for a multitude of good reasons.
    
    Dave

Well here in NZ there has being much discussion about this very subject in the
class of boat that we race.These are fractional rigged 30footers.
We lauched our boat in 1988 and at that time NORTHS figured that full length
battens where a good idea for these sails so not knowing any better we put 
full length battens in our main(not a NORTHS) which was fine.The top boats 
used them so everyone followed.
	Well NORTHS then changed thier minds the following season so everyone
changed back or got new mains.We replaced our main last season and we put
short battens in it,apart from the top 2 these are full length.But this year
the top boat at the nationals had a new main with full length battens and they 
had boat speed to burn,it was also a brand new boat so this could have had
something to do with it.The weather here is very rarely below 5kts for any 
length of time so the very light air perforance is not so important.
	Full length battens definitely extend the life of the main and any
sail can have them added for this purpose.Reefiong them has never been a 
problem.

Revel