Conference unifix::sailing

A determining factor in choosing your chain is what gypsy choices are 
available for the windlass you choose?  Chain types vary in link-length 
and other factors, and I've never seen a small boat windlass offered with 
a high-test chain gypsy.

BTW, even a given type of chain can vary somewhat from maker to maker.  
Most recommend that you buy the gypsy and chain from the same source or 
the same manufacturer to guarantee proper performance.  The wrong
gypsy/chain combo could be dangerous.

J.

re .0:

My understanding is that the shorter links of BBB chain make it less 
likely to kink and make it slightly stronger than proof-coil. However,
BBB is expensive and hard to find. 5/16 high-test chain breaks about
5400 pounds and is quite adequate for boats upto about 40'. We have 300'
of 5/16 high-test chain. 

If you haven't bought the windlass and chain, let me offer some advice. 
We were influenced by the around-the-world types (eg, Hal Roth) and 
decided that a windlass and lots of chain were just the thing. Well, 
maybe. 

A windlass is expensive. A good manual windlass is $600 to $1000. A 
power windlass is much harder to install, the wiring is very expensive, 
and anything electrical on the foredeck is going to be unreliable over 
time. 

Chain is heavy. 5/16 is about one pound per foot. 

Chain is expensive -- US-made (don't buy foreign-made chain) 5/16 high 
test is about $2.50 a foot. 1/2 inch three-strand nylon is about $0.30 
a foot in quantity.

Chain is hard to stow. You need a surprisingly deep locker before it 
will self-stow. Ours isn't deep enough -- only about 100' of the 200' 
primary chain rode self-stows.

Chain is dangerous -- you must be very careful when letting it run. 

Chain is messy -- we've spent over a half-hour cleaning Maine muck off 40' 
of chain and our foredeck. A washdown pump is essential to tidiness.

Cranking in chain with a manual windlass is very, very slow and tiring. 
It can easily take half an hour to recover 200', especially if you have 
to wash it as it comes aboard (you don't want mud in your chain locker 
-- it doesn't have the nicest smell). 

Having lived with our windlass and chain for a few years now, we find we 
almost never use just chain (maybe twice in five years). We normally use 
a CQR 35, 40' of 5/16 chain, and NNN feet of 1/2 inch nylon rode for our 
32' boat. We have yet to drag using this combination. We occasionally 
use the windlass to break out the anchor (the windlass is not essential, 
just convenient). In retrospect, for coastal NE summer cruising, I 
probably wouldn't buy a windlass and lots of chain again. For world 
cruising, absolutely yes, however.


re .1:

>>> I've never seen a small boat windlass offered with a high-test 
>>> chain gypsy.

Yes you have, John. The gypsy on the Muir windlass on Toward Morning 
accepts 5/16 high-test chain. The chain pockets on the gypsy have enough 
slope that some variation in chain link length can be accomodated. The 
dimensions of 5/16 high-test chain are very nearly the same as 5/16 
proof-coil chain. BBB is the odd critter (as I recall). 

RE: .2, 

>>>  re .1:
>>>  
>>>  >>> I've never seen a small boat windlass offered with a high-test 
>>>  >>> chain gypsy.
>>>  
>>>  Yes you have, John. The gypsy on the Muir windlass on Toward Morning 
>>>  accepts 5/16 high-test chain. The chain pockets on the gypsy have enough 
>>>  slope that some variation in chain link length can be accomodated. The 
>>>  dimensions of 5/16 high-test chain are very nearly the same as 5/16 
>>>  proof-coil chain. BBB is the odd critter (as I recall). 

I stand corrected.  Puffin had proof-coil, and the Simpson-Lawrence dealer 
supplied both chain and gypsy as a matched set.

Like Alan, we also used 30'-40' chain (3/8" rather than 5/16") with 35-lb
CQR, and found the windlass was a back saver but very slow.  The only
times I chose to use it were in tight anchorages where I wanted to shorten
scope in a stiff breeze without bothering with the engine, or to help
break the anchor out of suctiony mud when there wasn't searoom available
to sail back and forth to work it out.  The rest of the time it worked as 
an expensive holder for the chain between manual heaves.  The samson posts 
were far more useful in handling ground tackle.

For US coastal cruising, I'd go for 25' chain and properly-sized nylon rode.
An properly large, verging on oversize, cleat mounted back a ways on your 
foredeck will provide much safety and flexibility in handling ground 
tackle, as in giving you some space to attach a hand-billy for extra
leverage in breaking out, for instance. 

J.

    From all appearances, proof coil seems to be the most common and should
    be more than adequate for local conditions.  Don't forget that not only
    is it heavy to handle, it will also add considerable weight to your
    bow.  We have an all chain rode on a 25,000 lb. 40 footer.  A windlass
    is essential for this application.  For our purposes, it is way too
    much.  I am going to suggest we switch to the nylon rode for this
    season.  Other things to consider:
    
    The boat will ride differently on chain relative to other boats in an
    anchorage especially on calm nights.  Can be a problem if you are not
    swinging the same as everyone else.    
    
    You still need as much scope with a chain rode as you would with a
    nylon rode per Chapman's.  
    
    The windlass needs to be maintained as Alan pointed out and it should
    not be used to pull the boat up to the anchor or break the anchor out.    
    (We always do both though)
    
    Deck wash systems aren't cheap and can be time consuming.  This
    can be tricky in a tight deep anchorage.  Even with a wash down, you
    will get muck on your deck and in the chain well.  
    
    It will be more difficult for someone to cut if they run it over.   
    
    
    Brian
   

    We anchor Elwing on all chain and use a wash down pump. Although noone
    had said anything about the electrical draw of these two pieces of
    equipment let me remind anyone who is thinking  about installing either
    that you should have the engine providing charging to your batteries,
    even if you are sailing the anchor out, 'cause the pump and the
    windlass will take alot out.
    I also strongly agree with .4 in that nomatter what you read use the
    same scope as you would with rode.

    Our wash down system is a belt driven pump and also serves as the bilge
    pump with the help of a "y" valve.  The draw on the windlass alone is
    significant and we never use it without the motor on.  
    
    Brian

    Although "many world cruisers" use all chain rode, I'm not sure what
    their reasoning is. I know that chafe(from coral or rock bottom) is one,
    however chafe usually would occur in the lower 20-30' I would think.
    Previous replies to this note seem to belie any scope advantage to
    chain. An article this past year in Cruising World did a fairly good 
    comparison and pointed out that "All nylon rodes have chain at the lower
    end" and "All chain rodes usually have a nylon line attached to chain 
    close to bow of boat with other end cleated, putting slacxk in the
    chain and to provide a measure of stretch in the system". Bottom line
    of that would seem to be you either have a long chain and a short nylon
    line or long nylon line and a short chain, which brings us to what's
    short and what's long?
    
    I have a 35lb CQR, 30ft of chain, and the rest nylon on a heavy
    cruising boat (Island Packet 38) and have had no problems yet. 
    
    I would be interested in what reasons world cruisers state for using
    all chain.
    
    Tom
     

re .7:

I think that part of the reason for using all-chain rodes is in your 
reply. 

>>>    Although "many world cruisers" use all chain rode, I'm not sure what
>>>    their reasoning is. I know that chafe (from coral or rock bottom) is one,
>>>    however chafe usually would occur in the lower 20-30' I would think.

If you have no insurance (most long-distance sailors don't), then 
usually isn't enough. The cruising liveaboads we know are incredibly 
careful -- their boat is all they own -- even though they just cruise 
the US east coast. They take no chances whatsoever. No problems ever,
not just yet, is what they want. In little or no wind, an anchored boat
may wander quite a bit. The chances of chafing through a nylon rode in a
coral anchorage are not small. 

Chain does have some significant advantages. In light winds the weight 
of the chain is enough to anchor the boat, and, as a result, the boat 
will wander much less about the rode. The effective scope is much less 
than it would be with a nylon rode. A length of shock-absorbing nylon 
is needed only once the wind and seas are enough to take the slack out 
of the chain. 

One author suggests using a floating polypropylene rode with a long 
length of chain between it and the anchor. A buoy with enough bouyancy 
to lift 25' or so of chain off the bottom is used at the 
polypropylene/chain junction. This would likely be better than nylon 
(which doesn't float) but has other drawbacks.     

    Interesting comments on chain versus warp. Over on this side we
    tend to reckon on 4 times max depth for chain and 6 times for warp.
    Most people tend to use chain. I guess it could be that we tend
    to get higher winds over here and chain certainly eases the motion,
    we also tend to be anchoring in very bottoms.......My bowyer anchor
    has all chain and my kedge has 15ft chain spliced on to anchor plait
    nylon. The bowyer is a CQR and the Kedge a Danforth. I have only
    used the kedge twice both times whilest riding out a gale. i guess
    I personally feel more comfortable with chain. I hasten to add i
    find it hard to sleep soundly when at anchor unless conditions are
    really settled......
    
    
    Pete 

    I agree with Alan on the conservative nature of long term crusiers and
    most live aboards. On all three of the boats we have lived aboard
    (Westsail 32, Pearson 40, and Nauticat 43) our ground tackle has always
    been oversized, Elwing (NC43) has 300' of chain with 300' of nylon to
    back it up on a 60lb CQR for the working bower. In addition we carry a
    70lb plow, 35Lb CQR, 60lb Danforth, 35lb Danforth and rode and chain as
    necessary.
    When your house is about to blow up on the rocks is the wrong time to
    think about bringing the "lunch hook" up and setting the "storm"
    anchor.
    

Sailors can argue this point ad infinitum.  I don't want to miss the fun!

When you cruise around coral, often you want to anchor amidst coral heads, 
and as soon as the big windshift arrives, your nylon sinks, drags around 
the bottom, then pulls taut from the other direction -- perhaps encircling 
one of those coral heads.  It's a problem, and chain is good not only for 
resisting chafe, but also because in lighter winds it tends to prevent a 
boat from wandering around as much.

But to equal the breaking strength of still-reasonable-diameter* nylon rode, 
you need a surprisingly heavy size of chain.  I don't have tables in front
of me here, but I'm sure 1/2" nylon has greater ultimate strength than
3/8" chain.  (OK, now I'm out on the plank, who's gonna knock me off?)
;-)   

One of nylon's most endearing qualities in an extreme storm is it's 
ability to stretch and thereby absorb shock.  (*N.B.-It is possible to get
nylon rode larger than optimum size for maximum shock-absorbing benefit;
perhaps surprisingly, after a point bigger isn't better, it's worse.) 
It's the shock loading that breaks chain, and a boat rising wildly on a
huge wave can come up short on her rode mighty quickly.  If the rode
doesn't break, the fastening cleat may.  The catenary of an all-chain rode
"takes up" a lot more rapidly at its limits than does an equal-length
nylon rode. 

So...past research has suggested that the best combo is half-chain, half- 
nylon -- each properly sized for the boat.  FWIW, if I were doing serious
ocean cruising, I'd get a short chain (40' or less) of the maximum
manageable size and use nylon with it.  For a back-up, I'd have longer
chain of perhaps one size lighter for use as an all-chain rode in coral or
sharp rock areas. (Using it daily would be a pain, and I'd rather stow it 
low amidships most of the time.)  For the trouble of carrying another 40'
length of serious size chain, perhaps pre-attached to the storm anchor,
one could configure the various pieces together with chainlinks to fashion
a nearly-ideal storm anchor set-up, depending on bottom and sea
conditions. 

J.

re .11:

How 'bout a small push toward the end of the plank? The breaking 
strength of 1/2 inch three-strand nylon is 7500 pounds and 1/2 inch 
nylon braid is 8500 pounds (more or less). The breaking strength of 3/8 
inch high-test chain is (estimate) 7800 pounds, proof-coil a fair bit 
less (maybe half). Not the dramatic difference you thought? 

Also, the safe working load for 3/8 inch high-test chain is 5400 pounds 
(West Marine catalog). The safe working load for nylon rope is 1/5 or 
less (or some such -- my memory needs refreshing) of the breaking 
strength, or 1700 pounds for 1/2 inch nylon braid. Nylon does fatigue
over time. There was comment to the effect that after one storm a nylon
rode should be replaced (in the note about moorings, I think, reported
from a conversation with a ropemaker about nylon pennants). It might be
impractical to replace a nylon rode frequently if one were living aboard
or long-distance cruising. 

Not simple at all. For serious weather, I'd probably use 100 to 200 feet 
of chain, perhaps with a bouy to lift 25' of chain off the bottom to 
reduce the chance of chafe, and then 100 or more feet of nylon. Nylon is 
pretty stretchy, especially three-strand, and not all that long a length 
may be necessary (somewhere in an anchoring or mooring note I did some 
calculations/estimates of load versus stretch). 

re .11:

Splash!

I checked my references -- and refreshed my faulty memory.


Rode			Breaking 	Working		Weight
			Strength	  Load		per 100'

1/4 proof coil chain	   4700		  1175		  76

5/16 proof coil chain	   7000		  1750		 115

5/16 high test chain	  11500		  4000		 123

3/8 proof coil chain	   9800		  2450		 166

3/8 high test chain	  16200		  5100		 175

1/2 nylon		   5750		   525		   8

3/4 nylon		  12800		  1420		  18

1 nylon			  22600		  2520		  32


Sources: J Stuart Haft (chain) and the Cordage Institute (rope), quoted 
in Modern Marlinspike Seamanship by W P MacLean. Others sources give 
somewhat different numbers but the relationships are about the same.

Hmmmm, chain is looking better and better! Of course, as has been 
mentioned, chain does require a shock absorber. 

RE: .13,

Glug glug glug.  


At least I tried to qualify it a bit by specifying ultimate load rather 
than working load.  Rope, especially dirty rope, can deteriorate rapidly
when cycled under high load.  Chain less so.

J.

    WHOW! When I placed the base note I only expected a little comparison
    between a couple of different kind of chains.And look what we got ?
    A wealth of information about anchoring.Thank you folks for the info.
    That's the kind of response that makes this file so succesfull.
    On the same note,if I remember correctly,Larry Pardey once wrote a
    piece in a mag giving an evaluation account of gear performance
    after the Cabo st.Lucas (sp;)disaster.
    In it, he states that no anchoring chain broke during the ordeal
    and when failure of rope is mentioned,he doesn't make any comparisons
    of strength between rope and chain but atributes the rope failure to
    chafe.He also goes on to say that one very negative thing about chain
    is the difficulty to "cut"the chain when in a bad situation you have
    to get off the anchor immediately and go on,where you only need a knife
    to cut a rope.Therefore he suggests that you prepare-like he has-
    by rigging out the end of the chain,I don't remember the knot he uses,
    so anybody by pulling a string on the knot can let the whole cain go
    while the captain is steering the boat.Of course a poor man he is like
    most of us,he does mentions to buoy the chain before let go so it
    can be retrieved later.

    A piece of chain trivia......
    
    I read that American chain manufacturers are migrating to metric
    standards.   In order to keep from distressing American consumers who
    may not appreciate the metric system, their marketing strategy is to 
    continue selling with rounded off English measure.
    
    So read the fine print, measure the chain and be careful about
    assumptions with regard to compatibility with gypsies and other such
    size dependent stuff.
    

    We were one of the few cruising boats that survived the Cabo storm in
    Dec of '82 with out any damage.  We also cruised the South Pacific for
    a year in '85-86 and have a manual MORTIZ windless that has a direct
    pull (no gear).  We use 300 feet of 3/8 chain attached to to 125 ft of
    nylon rode and this is attached ( tied) to 15 ft of line that is
    secured in chain locker by the other end.  The feeling here is that at ANY
    sign of danger we can dump the whole thing, by undoing the knot (the
    message here is that we are not destroying any rode) with a fender and
    hopefully pick it up later.
    
    Having a manual windless I know that every time I pull the handle I'm
    going to get 4" to 6" inches of chain (depending who you listen to - me
    or my wife).  We are not affraid to pull up the chain if we are not
    happy with the way we are laying in regards to other boats - in Bora
    Bora we reset our anchor 3 times before we were satisfied with the way
    we were sitting.  It took only 30 or so minutes each time but we are
    able to sleep well at night.
    
    Additionally I like all chain because it is easier for one person (my
    wife) to pull it up on the gypsy vs rode on the capsan.