Conference unifix::sailing

    I used to sail through the Dumplings all the time with my old Snipe 
    and brag to my friends about knowing where every rock was. Boy did
    I look stupid the day a rock tore the rudder off the boat!
    
    Now all I'll say is I REALLY know where ONE rock is!
    
    -Paul

    Buy Marine Tex by the gallon.  Or make up your own with epoxy and
    various fillers.  The gouges are deep so I'd suggest multiple
    applications.  Clean any loose material away and bevel the edges
    for a good feather joint.  The apply a thick mixture of epoxy and
    choped glass fibers.  For the hole in the keel, you may have to
    do this several times to keep the patch from falling out.  For the
    longer gash one application may be enough.  Fill to just below the
    surface.  Finish with the marine tex or a mixture of epoxy and fairing
    filler (West 410 or equivalent).  Sand until flush and apply bottom
    paint.
    
    If the gash is real deep, like greater than 30% of the thickness
    of the layup, bevel back further and fill with successively wider
    layers of glass mat.  Finish as before.  You may need to lay a flexible
    batten vertically along the gash every few inches to reestablish
    continuity with the hull form. 
    
    Did you actually lose lead in the keel?  Or had a "mushroom" formed
    around the ding.  Mushrooms can be heated and hammered back.   
    
    - gene

    Thanks Gene.  The hull is pretty thick so I would be surprised if the
    gash is over 30% of total thickness in this area.  The actual
    appearance is not so much of an issue as keeping it fair with the hull
    contours as well as making sure the hull integrity is still there.  This 
    area will be covered with bottom paint and will not be seen except when 
    out of the water.  Yes we actually lost lead in the keel.  It is also 
    mushroomed slightly surrounding the area of impact.  We are fortunate 
    that the hull didn't take the impact at the speed they were going. 
    
    
      

The Gougeon Brothers (WEST epoxy) publish a nice little book on repairing 
fiberglass hulls. They also have an extensive line of epoxies, fillers for 
every need, safety equipment, etc. I'd suggest you get their catalog. System 3
epoxy is very similar to WEST epoxy and is somewhat cheaper. I've use WEST
fillers and System 3 epoxy for many new construction and repair projects over
the last several years. 

Lead is soft enough that you don't need to heat it. Just whack it with a big 
hammer to get it roughly back into shape. Then fair with a filled epoxy (which 
can be as thick as peanut butter). Some fillers sag much more than others. The 
ones that don't sag much can be applied quite thickly to a vertical surface. 
Unless your gouges and dings are huge, keeping the hull and keel fair is not a 
problem. Some fillers are much easier to sand than others. You might want to 
do most of the filling with a high strength filler and the final fairing with 
a light, easily sanded filler.

    Hmmm.  Getting out tape measure and making quick calculation, I would
    guess your long hull gash to be substantially more than 30% of the hull
    thickness (finger measured between 5/8-3/4", which at 30% would equate
    to 2" hull thickness or more).
    
    If you can get to area of gash on inside of hull, try light taps with
    ball peen hammer and/or look for translucency from light shown on gash
    from outside to get (albeit not perfectly accurate) some relative sense
    of amount of damage as compared to either side of gash.  If you press
    blunt instrument into gash, does the remaining glass give any ?
    
    In any event, for safety's sake, Gene's 2nd paragraph (successive width 
    layup) would appear to be the way to go, and I personally would not use 
    chopped fiber under any circumstances anyway.  This is especially true
    if gash is located under area of shroud terminations.
    
    I have used System 3 with success and have found optimum working
    room temperature to be 75-80 degrees.  Ease of working with it falls
    off rapidly on either side of that temp.  Have not used others recently, 
    but everyone I know who has used West swears by it (as I do Sys 3).
    
    By the way, you show remarkable restraint to have reacted so benignly
    at the time of your discoveries this fall (or have you just cleaned it
    up for public consumption?).

    Thanks again for the additional replies.  Imagine if you will a fresh
    loaf of bread.  Now imagine plunging your fingers into said loaf and
    pulling ripping a chunk.  The resulting hole is kinda what our keel 
    looks like.  A ragged hole the size of medium grapefruit is missing
    from the leading edge.  As for the gouge in the side, we gave this a
    cursory look noting that a more serious inspection would need to be
    done after the bottom was washed thoroughly.  It's off to the library
    for glass repair books.  As for the benign disposition, I will not
    publish my partner's reaction but he took the action item to lambaste
    the perpetrators.  I can only say that I am glad it wasn't me.  I am
    more upset from the fact that I will probably end up doing the repairs. 
    I feel badly for him and I hate to see the boat abused that way.  I
    seem to be getting attached to her.  I guess I would feel even worse 
    and would not seem so benign if I had a capital stake in her.  Thanks 
    again everyone we appreciate the pointers      
    
    
    Brian

    We have had the yard look at the gouge along the side of the boat and
    it is more serious than originally thought.  Apparently whatever made
    the mark went through all but the last few layers of glass matting. 
    When the person was probing the gash, he though he was pushing on one
    of the interior carpets!  Scarier than we had originally thought.  Oh
    well, we'll be spending alot of time on this one come spring.  
    
    Brian

    Another quick update.  The yard has started on the work on the hull
    damage.  They have ground out a bevelled  area about 4-5 inches either 
    side of the gash.  They have ground right through the hull in two spots
    where the gash was deepest.  Fortunately, these spots are also
    accessible from the inside through various lockers.  Word from the
    person doing the work is "Can't figure out why you did not sink or at
    least take on significant amounts of water".  I think we were very
    lucky.  Anyway, the price tag for this little effort is about $1K +/-.
    
    The keel is even more chewed up than I originally thought.  Not only
    has the leading edge been torn up but the sides look as if they have been
    smeared with a knife.  Are there any precautions that should be taken
    when filing, sanding, pounding lead?    
    
    Brian  :-(  
    

    All hull/keel repairs are complete!  The yard laid in successive layers 
    of mat or roving and built the hull back up to the necessary thickness.  
    We did not get the opportunity to inspect the final job work as they 
    painted it for us after they were done.  The hull looks smooth and fair 
    though.  I could not tell where the repair had been from the outside.  
    A comment from the guy doing the work said the hull looked resin heavy 
    which could account for the relatively little water the glass soaked up 
    from the damage.  They did not need to dry it out other than letting it 
    air dry.  We also do not have any signs of blistering to date.  As for 
    the keel, the yard did this too.  Since she hit so hard, they rang the 
    keel bolts to see if any of them loosened up which is something new to 
    us.  Apparently if you whack the bolts with a hammer, they should ping 
    versus thudding.  Is this a common practice?  Neither of us ever heard 
    of doing this before.  We figured we were okay since there were no signs
    of seepage around the bolts when it was in the water.  
    
    Brian   

    Well, my first unsupervised trip thru the mouth of Salem Harbor turned
    out to be something of a disappointment, and now WAGS is sitting on
    jackstands at Jubilee YC awaiting her annual keel repair job ... :^(
    
    We've decided we'd better have a pro take a look at her this time, as
    it appears the keel bolts have, at the very least, loosened.  This will
    also require hauling the engine to get at them.
    
    My question is, does anyone in here have any recommendations of who to
    call to get this kind of work done in the Marblehead area ??
    
    ... Bob
    

    Bob, first, let me offer my condolences on your becoming an owner.  You
    are learning right away just how much fun it is!
    
    Marblehead Trading will be glad to strip your wallet clean to look at
    it.  I would have recommended Mark Lindsay, but I don't know his
    current status.
    
    Dave

    Bob,
    
    There was a note in here last year, about a big C+C (Yaquina?) hitting
    the bricks.  Do you know where the owner had his repairs done?
    
    As Dave J. just said, M'head Trading does a good job of separating boat
    owners from cash.  A friend of mine had some serious damage to his
    hull, same story, rocks in Salem Sound.  M'head Trading was over twice
    as expensive as the place his insurance company finally had do the work. 
    The place that did his work is someplace south of Boston, not in
    Marblehead area.  I'll get some info if you can't do better locally.
    
    djc

    How about a call to the manufacturer, Tillotson Pearson for some
    advice?
    
    If there is an insurance claim involved here, Marblehead Trading may be
    just the place to go for an estimate.  No one says you have to do the
    work there.  With some factory advice, this maybe a manageable DIY job. 
    A pro's real advantage is to be able to log 8 hrs/day doing the repair. 
    Techniques and equipment you probably already have.  And I don't know
    of too many yards as well equiped as Jubilee itself is as far as
    lifting gear is concerned.
    
    - gene

    Thanks for the advice ... and I did also get some off-line thru E-mail.
    
    There is no insurance claim involved.  Dick's probably already up
    talking to someone, as I can't reach him by phone.  Some of the damage
    will be repaired DIY, as it has been in the past.  However, we want
    someone with the professional experience to check the hull area around
    the keel ... this is our 7th hit on this boat in 10 years and so we're
    concerned about the structural integrity.  Also, the keel bolts are
    obviously loosened ... the fibreglass is cracked around the entire
    circumference of the hull where the keel is joined to the boat.  We
    want to make certain that it's properly repaired before she goes back
    in the water.
    
    Obviously we're concerned about cost ... neither Dick or myself are
    exactly rolling in dough.  But it's more important to ensure that she's
    properly repaired and safe to operate before we take her out sailing
    again.  And in that respect I will only trust the opinion of a pro, no
    matter who does the work.
    
    And when all this is over, I'm gonna find myself a good course in
    navigation and pay attention ... this is gonna be one expensive lesson,
    no matter how it turns out.
    
    ... Bob
    

    
    	Welcome to The Club. I boinked about 10 in� off of my leading edge,
    and decided to dive her and use Poly-Poxy. After 3 dives, I'm still
    substantially less than thrilled- altho the major divot was filled.
    	Gene's idea is kinda neat, and there are a few hungry people out
    there- with lotsa good advice and even more luck, you still may be able
    to enjoy meat with your main meal at least twice a week <8*( .
    	The Beneteau has thwart-mounted supports, which give me an
    EXCELLENT instant damage estimate. If they're really pushed up at the
    trailing edge, out she comes. If the light gel is not ruptured, she
    just gets TLC.
    	Anyway, the Poly-Poxy does actually harden underwater, but so
    slowly that there's lots of time to dribble off, or develop lunar
    surface. This doesn't help you for this big thunk, but gives the
    ability to do a real cheap&sleezy fairing repair.
    	Good Luck!
    	Scott_who_knows_most_rocks_in_Boston_Harbor_intimately

re .14 and .15:

Hmmm, if the keel bolts are obviously loose and if I understand your 
description of the cracks (all the way round the keel? wow!), then I'd 
get some serious professional advice from a competent surveyor. If the 
keel has to come off, and it might, fixing the damage is perhaps more 
than a do-it-yourself project. It is mostly likely a major project. A 
high aspect lead keel will take some very careful handling once it is 
separate from the hull to avoid hurting anyone. 

    Well, so far three estimates ... ranging from a low of $600 to a high
    of $3K.  Brown's will probably get the work ($1,200 - $1,600, including
    some reglassing of previous repairs we'd done ourselves).  Work will
    start next week, and we should be back in the water sometime in 
    early August.  Dick and I are meeting on Sunday at Lake Winnepesauke to
    discuss the details, compare notes, and decide who gets the job.
    
    All three agreed that the damage isn't as serious as it looks, the
    major difference in cost is in the approach to fixing the problem.  The
    person who came in with the low estimate feels it isn't necessary to
    pull the engine, but his plan calls for drilling holes thru a bulkhead
    and reglassing them when he's done (we're checking with Tillotson
    Pearson to see if this is a feasible idea).  The high bid wanted us to
    put the boat back in the water and deliver it to their yard (no way). 
    Brown's is looking at a comprehensive repair and survey of the entire
    boat, leaving the boat at JYC and using the club's equipment for the
    heavy work ... I like that approach the best.
    
    According to the person Dick talked to at T.P., the crack around the
    keel is exactly what's supposed to happen under those circumstances.
    He claims it absorbs shock and saves on hull damage ... and that once
    the keel bolts are tightened the rest is simple fibreglass repair.
    
    So far it's been an interesting week.  This much I know ... once the
    work starts I want to take a day or two off and see for myself how this
    boat is put together as they take it apart and strip back fibreglass
    to effect repairs.  I'm very impressed with the way the keel and
    infrastructure of the boat have held up to the abuse of so many hits
    over the last ten years.  I think J-boats and Tillotson Pearson did
    their homework when they designed and built this boat.  It's kind of a
    shame they don't build this particular model anymore.
    
    ... Bob
    

    I have had good reports on S&S for glass repair - based in Newburyport
    and will do work at Jubilee.  Noel (owner) gave a quote on 
    some work for me a few weeks ago and sounded like he know what he was doing.
    
    phone number = 508 462 4867
    
    They seem to be known at Jubilee (referral came from Bob
    Logcher, past comdr)
    
    Frequently sail in the area and am curious as to which rocks might 
    have been the culprits... and if there might be some hard won pointers here.
    

    We got a good quote from a guy named Greg Feldman, out of Swampscott
    late last week.  I'm currently trying to get ahold of him to ask him a
    few questions, but his estimate was very impressive.  His credentials
    seem to be good, and I trust the person who recommended him.
    
    Once the work starts (hopefully in the next couple of days), I'll post
    in here any information that may be helpful to anyone else who has to
    find someone for this kind of work.
    
    Yes, the rock has a name ... Abbott Rock.  Hard learned lessons ?? 
    Sure ... never go through an area like Salem Harbor without a chart
    handy, unless you've done it so many times you are sure you know the
    location of every rock in the area (I do not, but I'm working on it).
    Thirty seconds of double-checking my position would've helped me avoid
    all this grief.  Second lesson ... even when you are sure, check anyway.
    
    ... Bob (who had a dandy time yesterday sailing around all the rocks
             up on Lake Winnapesauke and was glad to be in a boat with a
             centerboard rather than a keel)
    

    Well, WAGS gets launched tomorrow ... exactly one month after she was
    hauled.  The keel is realigned, retightened, reglassed, refaired, 
    repainted ... and paid for ... ;^)  
    
    We had new soft drive mounts put on the engine, which required
    rebuilding the stringers that the motor sat on and replacing the drip
    pan.  The last of the work to the new motor housing gets done in the
    morning, then the engine gets reconnected and we put her back in
    sailing shape.  High tide's about 3:15 tomorrow afternoon and ...
    splash !!!
    
    ... and then I go jump aboard Bodacious to deliver her to Newport for
    the NOODs ... yup, I'm o-fish-ally on vacation ... (life's rough) ...
    
    Generally I'm very happy with the quality of the work.  I sure wish it
    could have gotten done a little quicker ... however, I'd rather a have
    a slow, well-thought out, well done repair than a quick one that may
    compromise a little quality.  Having observed, and sometimes helped, in
    most phases of the repair, I'm pretty confident that what we're putting
    back in the water is as strong as it was meant to be when it was new. 
    Greg's good about explaining what he's doing, and why ... so I know a
    lot more about the boat now than I did a month ago.  Unfortunately, he
    didn't teach me how to avoid rocks ... :^(
    
    Final tab ... about a thousand to fix the keel damage.  Another $600 or
    so for the motor mount upgrade, including parts.  Pretty reasonable
    considering the amount of time that went into it.  Actually, seeing the
    boat up on jack stands for a month during the sailing season hurt worse
    than the price tag ...
    
    				... Bob