Conference unifix::sailing

    I HAVE A SEARANGER ASB 2001 THAT I BOUGHT LAST YEAR. I AM MOST HAPPY
    WITH IT AND HAve had good results. It is very easy to use.
    
    One pronlem. I have been trying to use it at home and it will not
    leave the WAIT state. I have a problem and the company has asked
    me to send it back to be checked out (under warranty)
    
    This I will do this week.
    
    However, it is a super unit.
    
    Paul

    
    
    Re .1
    
     I also bought the SEA RANGER ASB2001 and had the same problem when
    I tied to use it at home. A friend who also has one told me to make
    sure that if I used it in regular mode, i.e. not in simulator mode,
    that the antenna had to be hooked up, otherwise there is no way it
    can pick up info from the master and secondary stations.
     I assume you have the antenna hooked up.
    
    
    

    Practical Sailor did a review of Loran's both recently (I believe)
    and last year. The 6000 got a good review as I recall. At the 
    risk of revisiting my decision NOT to buy anything at the Sailboat
    show, I will check the article and post my findings.
    
    I hope I don't end up deciding to buy something as a result... !
    
    JC
    

    P.S recomended,at the low end of expence,the Apelco DXL-6000 and from
    the posted price of $399 at the base note it has to be a great buy.
    However, to repeat myself,if anyone decides to get the Micrologic
    Explorer(same receiver as the MIC-8000 I believe) get it from the 
    American electronics for a total,inluding handling and shipping here
    in NE,$558 which is appx. $100 less than the price of Boat USA.
    It comes with a coupler and a 52" ss antenna.As for the instructions 
    they are easier,to me,than the instructions how to set up the
    Casio watch.
    By the way,if any one goes to the boat show before Saturday can
    they put something on the tube to prepare us who think to go during
    the week-end.{I lie I don't have to think I already have the tickets.
    
                                   Summer is around the corner
                                   so is the work I have to do ahead.
    

     Come on John, what kind of additude is that for a sailor?
    Just except it, go to the boat show, spend ALL your money,
    and LIKE it.
                     
     I know that's what i'm doing Friday night:-)

	I thought about goin 'cheap', but I plan to travel down east towards
Mount Desert Island.  Its near the Canadian chain, and towards the edge
of the US northeastern chain.  I thought about all of the rocks and fog,
so I got the Furuno LC90 and the Radio Shack 12v supply.  I found that
if you keep the antenna inside the house, you don't get squat.  At 100khz,
I figure the foil backed fiberglass insulation in the walls of my house
makes the house look like a shielded test chamber.  The antenna HAS to
be hung outside of any shielding.

	Dave

    I ended up with an Interphase model 2000, and I love it.
    I especially love the prive ($300) at the beginning of
    the 1989 season.
    
    I'd recommend it for ease of use and accuracy at a
    decend price
    

    This topic is better covered here than in the powerboat notes file and
    I hope that someone in this conference has knowledge of the Voyager by
    Micrologic. .4 refers to the Explorer model, but I can't afford to call
    that a low cost loran (the topic of this note). The Voyager is being
    offered as a boat show special at the Bliss booth for $350�. I had been
    looking at some different models closer to the $300 range in catalogs,
    but based on what I've heard I'd get more than my money's worth if I
    spent the extra $50 (I don't really have) for the Micrologic made Voyager.
    
    I guess my question is, is there a better Loran for $350 or less than
    Voyager? I have not been able to get spec sheets on the Explorer and
    Voyager, but looking at the faces (which do differ) I see what appear
    to be the exact same button labels, keypad entry, and display. From
    catalog discriptions the differences I see that are that the Explorer
    comes with an antenna and it has 4 instead of 3 notch filters. I've
    been told that the Explorer has NMEA 183 output and the Voyager has
    NMEA 180. Even if I could afford the difference in price, I am not sure
    that the Explorer offers that difference in value. Is there something
    that I am missing? 
    
    The way I see it is that for the price of a low cost Loran I can buy a
    Voyager with all the functions of the Explorer, Micrologic build
    quality and reputation, and the same English interface as the more
    expensive Micrologics. Am I wrong? Though the name "Micrologic" does
    not appear on the case it is obvious that it comes from the same
    source, the address that is on the SN# tag is exactly the same as the
    Explorer's, it is made in the U.S. (unlike some companies which offer a
    lower priced unit because it is assembled off shore somewhere), and
    everyone refers to it as a Voyager by Micrologic. 
    
    John
    
    � The next lowest price I've seen in the Voyager is $380, there may be
    lower, but since $380 seemed like to much I was focusing on other, less
    expensive Lorans. 

    The VOYAGER can be had with 3 or 5 notch filters (5 is a ~$60
    option); with a standard antenna or with a high-performance
    antenna coupler. So, if you're comparing price, make sure
    you're comparing apples to apples.

    You might try Coast Navigation in Annapolis for a price.
    They should have a boat show special in effect now, but
    if not they certainly will in two weeks.  800/638/0420

    I know two folks who have the VOYAGER, and it seems fine.

    If you don't care about the NEMA output, the explorer (at
    least used to be) available without it.
    Explorer  vs.  Explorer S

    	- Lee

    Thank you Lee for that information, I didn't realize that the Voyager
    had upgrade options. Were you refering to the Explorer when you said
    "So, if you're comparing price, make sure you're comparing apples to
    apples."?  If so, than I know that a Voyager VS Explorer comparison
    isn't fair, since the Explorer costs more and has more features. That
    wasn't my point, I mentioned the Explorer in the same way that one
    would refer to a VT340 when talking about the VT330.
    
    My real question is that if the members of the conference had just
    received a check for $350 to be spent on any Loran� (no additional funds
    of your own can be added), would you spend that check on a Voyager or
    something else. If something else, what does it offer that the Voyager
    doesn't? Understand that I don't believe in a single "best" in
    anything, what I am seeking is value, the most return for the money
    spent in terms of quality, durability, performance, features, and
    functions.
    
    John
    
    � Conditions of use:  22' Sea Ray I/O in salt water. The area of
    navigation starts from mooring in Pleasant Bay Cape Cod, out to the
    ocean off the Cape (beyond Nauset Beach), down into Nantucket Sound,
    out past Monomoy Island and out to Nantucket. I.e., in the area around
    the elbow of the Cape at Chatham. Fog, very common in the area. Narrow
    channels (don't expect Loran to be accurate enough to guide me through
    these channels). 

Practical Sailor reviewed a number of low cost lorans within the last few 
months. They thought that the Apelco was the best of the bunch. 

Two more thoughts: A loran is only an aid to navigation, but it is a very 
important aid. It is a mistake, in my view, to concentrate only on price. 
Higher price may mean more more reliability, better weatherproofing, better 
performance, better ease-of-use, and so on. Far too many electronic boxes 
fail one basic test: can it be used without reading the manual? The more 
features and displays a loran has and the fewer the number of keys, the more 
complicated it will be to use. You may not need the manual, but can your 
crew use the loran if you're incapacitated for some reason? 

Second, NEMA whatever outputs are only useful if you have some other device
to connect to the loran. 

    Please accept the price limit in my case. I prefer not to go another
    season before having a Loran on board, if I buy this season $350 would
    be the most I could afford to spend. Yep, I could spend more next year
    and get a better Loran, at the expense of not having one this year. The
    old something is better than nothing rule. 
    
    I was looking at the entry level ($250 - $320) Lorans when I saw the
    Voyager for $350. I saw this as an example of a higher price (typical
    low price $380, often at $400+) buying more of what you mentioned over
    what I was considering before. So, in effect I feel as if that I am
    taking your advice by considering the Voyager (Made possible by the
    special $350 price) even though a person with more to spend would look
    at the Voyager as their starting point. But, I am not experienced with
    Loran, not knowledgable about them so I asked the question here to see
    if in fact that was what I was doing, or if I was just kidding myself. 
    
    My boss also metioned the Practical Sailer artical but wasn't able to
    bring it in to show it to me. What model Apelco and what did it cost?
    
    On the issue of the number of keys the Voyager has the 10 digit
    keypad plus 12 function keys plus the 2 power (on and off) buttons.
    About the only Loaran I've seen with more keys is the King 8002
    which seems to have 14 function keys. Most others (includingt Apelco)
    seem to have far fewer keys.
    
    John

    Re: .-1
    
    Damn, Alan! What's with this cold water on the NMEA stuff? You mean I
    shouldn't plan on interfacing this Voyager to my
    Ockam/Autohelm-7000/Furuno-1930 system?  (Just kidding guys, no flames)
    
    Re: Last few on Voyager's
    
    I think you've got to be real careful when pricing just within this
    model (not to mention differences between it and the Explorer).
    
    I've seen prices as low as $309.95 for a Voyager/Sport Nav, whatever
    that is.
    
    John
    

��    I've seen prices as low as $309.95 for a Voyager/Sport Nav, whatever
��    that is.

    That's a handheld portable.

    Yes, I forgot there is another Voyager model, the Sport Nav portable
    (and I have seen $309 for it too [Shoreway Marine]), I should have said
    the model I am interested in is the US1, regular case and bracket mount
    model. I guess the terminology is left over from the time before the
    Sport Nav was introduced when the Voyager US1 was the only Voyager, and
    hence was known as the Voyager by Micrologic, or the Micrologic
    Voyager. Sorry for confusion.
    
    John

re .whatever

Apelco DXL6300 was the one Practical Sailor thought most highly of. About 
$400.

re spending limit:

There are always alternatives -- go to Burger King for you birthday dinner 
or don't go boating one day (which in your case might well save $50 
otherwise spent for gasoline). Something is better than nothing only when 
it works well enough to be useful. 

    Alan, Thank you for the information on the DXL-6300. A quick look in a
    couple of catalogs show that it can be had for $300 these days
    (Example: Outer Banks), and I am not 100% sure, but I think that was
    Bliss's show price too. The recommendation means that it is certainly
    something I should look into. I wonder if the relatively few keys means
    that it has relatively fewer functions or if they are harder to get at
    than some of the other units with more keys?
    
    Birthday dinner, what's that?  Burger King? Yes, we'll go to Burger
    King, but only when they have two burgers for a buck or a Whopper for
    99 cents. I politely asked readers to accept my financial limits, it is
    dangerous to make assumptions about another person's capacity to spend.
    
    The idea of saving money buy not buying gas is a good one, however I'd
    like the Loran on day #1, before I have spent any money on gas. BTW -
    it doesn't cost me anywhere near $50/day to run the boat thank
    goodness, if it did I couldn't afford to run it! It seems like I'd have
    to do without the boat for a good part of the season in order to buy a
    significantly more expensive (and hopefully better) Loran than the
    Voyager. I accept without question that there are better Lorans than
    the Voyager, but the ones I know about also cost a lot more, the
    question I had is there one that costs the same or less than the
    Voyager? Now I know of one that may, the Apelco DXL-6300. 
    
    In any case I wouldn't have to spend extra to get the 6300, it is
    $50 less than the Voyager I am considering.
    
    John

	Re several previous>
    
	I may be able to add some value to this discussion although I'm
    not intimately familiar with all the various models on the market today.
    I currently have an Apelco 6100 (prefixes and/or suffixes forgotten) and 
    I am very pleased with it.
	The size of the DXL - 6300 would appeal to me because of its limited 
    space requirement. This coupled with my positive experience with Apelco
    products and Practical Sailor's recommendation would lead me towards
    the DXL-6300.
	The DXL-6300 seems to have most of features of the 6100 but is limited
    in display capability. Depending on what information is displayed per
    page that may or may not be a problem. I usually only concentrate on a
    few pieces of information rather than everything being displayed.
    Sometimes I feel that there is too much information presented at one
    time and less would be more appropriate. For example, while heading
    toward a waypoint I am interested in my speed, distance/time to go and
    an indication of how well I am staying on course. In this case I don't 
    care to know the TD's of my exact location as they go ticking along or
    any other ancillary data being displayed. Other times I want to know 
    exactly where I am but don't care about the other stuff on the page.
	I don't know if the 6300 has auto waypoint sequencing or not. When 
    I bought my unit that was very important to me but in practice it has
    proven unnecessary. Your needs may vary but I have found that manually 
    keying in the next waypoint is usually preferable to setting up the  
    course in advance.
	I know that this doesn't help with your Micrologic comparison but
    it does offer an alternative within your $$ limits.
    Regards,
    Paul

    Re .17>
    	John,
    		I noted your reference to Outer Banks and thought I'd
    spread a little hate and discontent in their direction. My experience
    with Outer Banks is that they have the best prices but seldom have
    anything in stock. They have also botched up every order that I made
    with them...I think it took 2 times to convince me not to do business
    with them again. 
    	
    Just My Opinion
    Paul

    Thanks Paul, as far as I can tell (I haven't been able to get to a
    store to see first hand since this discussion started) the 6300 does
    not have auto waypoint sequencing, but then neither does the Voyager.
    Some of the cheaper, unknown to me brands offer this feature in the low
    end price range, but it doesn't seem as if any of the established
    manufacturers do. I don't know if this is because the unknowns can
    afford (for whatever reason) to give you more for your money and the
    established simply don't have to or if it is due to greater cost
    overhead for the establised, reputable brands. In any case, I find your
    comment very enlightening. I don't know if it should be entered in this
    note, maybe you can send mail if you have time, but I am very
    interested in the reasons why you have found auto sequencing to be less
    useful than expected.
    
    Thanks for the info on Outer Banks too. I wasn't prepared to do
    business with them. I used their low prices of examples of the low
    prices I'd seen on certain items, because if I didn't, my experience is
    that if I quoted typical or average "normal" prices someone would would
    tell be that my prices were too high.
    
    John
    

    I will add my two cents worth on OUTER BANKS.   Ordered a RAVNAV 570
    at the beginning of DEC.  I was told the unit was in stock.  Tobe
    shipped next day.  10 days nothing.  Called was told it was in stock
    when I ordered it.  But that ONE had been sold.  I was then told a new
    shipment came in today and it would be shipped out in the morning.
    10 days nothing.  Called again.  This was repeated 2 more times.
    I gave up and canceled my order.  
    Moral of the story is when you mail order ask how many are in
    stock not just if it is in.
    
    Take a look at the RAvnav 520.  The price is about 300 to 350 most
    places.
    

    By auto waypoint sequencing issume you mean that when you reach one
    waypoint the unit automatically switches over to the next waypoint. 
    Don't spend a lot of money for this feature.  It is always good to
    manually set the next waypoint and use that time to confirm as best as
    is possible that you are where your waypoint says you are.  If you made
    an error in inputting a prior waypoint and you merrily continue you are
    compounding your problem and could get in serious trouble.
    
    We have two lorans on Wildside, one a Trimble and one a Micrologic.
    The Micrologic is very easy to use and is water tight, so we are
    thinking of installing it on deck this year to keep the navigator on
    the rail.  However, the Trimble is so much more accurate and reliable
    that we truly "trust" it and not the Micrologic.  It is amazing having
    two on board to compare where they say you are.  The Trimble always
    matches up with major government marks wheras the Micrologic may be
    off by a quarter mile or more.             
    
    My point is, spend money on accuracy and the components that provide it     
    rather than extras which will make you less likely to backup the loran
    navigation with observation.  Low end Lorans can be quite good nowadays
    if you shop wisely.
    
    Dave
    

    Dave, your comparisons between your two lorans makes me wonder, is
    there a set period of time between the need for calibrating these
    units?   They might have a "built in calibration" but unless someone
    actually opens them up with a meter or scope probe in hand, you are only
    adjusting your measurement to a tolerance.  Tolerances, being additive,
    if parts in your lorans are at one end or the other of the spectrum,
    the accuracy of the loran can easily be jepordized.  Here in our
    building in DEC we have all electronic measuring devices calibrated no
    less than once a year, where they are tested against standards
    (negligible tolerance, environmentally stable devices).  Do your lorans
    have calibration specifications similar to this?  Shouldn't they, since
    you are risking if not your lives than surely each race on them?
    
    Charlie
    

    If they do have calibration ability, I am not aware of it.  Nor would I
    have any idea who to get to do it.  We have not noticed any pattern to
    the error.

re .23:

My TI9900 loran will display the error in its internal reference 
oscillator (last time I inquired, the error was about 12 Hertz 
for a 10 MHz oscillator). The loran determines the error using the 
atomic clock controlled loran signal as a reference. The internal loran 
oscillator can be recalibrated using the loran signal as well. 20 Hz is 
the maximum allowable error for our loran. The oscillator in our TI has
drifted about 1 Hz per year. 

I assume that the situation is similar for other lorans. Low cost lorans 
may well drift rather more, however. (The list price of our TI 9900NSP 
was, if I recall correctly, around $2500 in 1982.)

The major source of error in lorans is in the algorithm to correct for
signal propagation delays. The better lorans (eg, Trimble) have excellent
algorithms. The low cost lorans either do not correct at all or do so
poorly. Hence the position given by a low cost loran is more likely to
be inaccurate (This has been discussed extensively in some loran note or
other). 

OK, Dave bought an APELCO 6300 for elysium ( a C+C 29) moored in Salem.  He
says it cost around $300 so I guess that qualifies as lo-cost.

Anyway, a couple of questions regarding installation:
 1 - The manual shows installation location for a trawler, elysium isn't.
     The info I've seen says keep the antenna out of the vicinity of the radio
     antenna ( that eliminates the masthead), and away from the shrouds and
     stays. Most, if not all, installations I've seen on sailboats put the
     antenna on or near the rail near the aft pulpit.  Is this the best location?


 2 - Dave would like to create 2 semi-permanent mounting locations, one in the
     cockpit for the navigator's use on race nights and another location below
     for use while cruising.  The 12v supply and ground are no problem but what 
     about the antenna connections?  We'd like to use a t-connector near the 
     cockpit but do we really need a splitter and what about a dummy load or 
     terminator for the other connector?

We've been boning up on racing tactics and strategies, etc. and can't wait
for spring so we can get her wet again!  Maybe stuff like this helps us get 
through winter so how 'bout an answer.

Thanks, Ray.

> 1 - The manual shows installation location for a trawler, elysium isn't.
>     The info I've seen says keep the antenna out of the vicinity of the radio
>     antenna ( that eliminates the masthead), and away from the shrouds and
>     stays. Most, if not all, installations I've seen on sailboats put the
>     antenna on or near the rail near the aft pulpit.  Is this the best location?

	Putting the antenna on a stern pulpit keeps it at 45 degrees to any
stern rigging.  90 degrees is optimum, but 45 works.  I tried my loran the
other day at the house, and had to wipe the antenna and base off with a damp
cloth before it would work.  I guess the salt build up was just enough.  I'll
have to wash it down more often during the season.

> 2 - Dave would like to create 2 semi-permanent mounting locations, one in the
>     cockpit for the navigator's use on race nights and another location below
>     for use while cruising.  The 12v supply and ground are no problem but what 
>     about the antenna connections?  We'd like to use a t-connector near the 
>     cockpit but do we really need a splitter and what about a dummy load or 
>     terminator for the other connector?

	Be VERY careful here. The antenna base is ACTIVE on some/most? lorans.
The power comes from the antenna cable from the unit, and the signals are sent
back down the cable from the base to the unit.  I mounted my unit on a inside
bulkhead with the antenna+power+ground tiewapped together with velcro.  The
velcro attached to the other flavor velcro around my hatch that is for the
mosquito net.  I then have a teak bracket that mounts on deck next to the
hatch.  When the loran is on deck, the velcro keeps the cables on the cabin
ceiling.  I plan on a similar set up for the radar.

	If this is your first experience installing a loran, don't forget the
dynaplate which is connected directly to the loran.  The signals are 100 KHZ
and love the good groundplane that you get by using the saltwater.

    Re .26>
    	Separating the LORAN antenna from the VHF may not be as critical as
    one might think. When my electronics were installed by a "professional"
    at the boat yard he ran all the wires together in a cable. This bundle
    contained VHF power & antenna, LORAN power & antenna and SONAR power &
    transducer cable, along with ignition wires etc. I was concerned but was
    assured that everything was fine. Well there was a problem with the
    tranducer cable interferring with the VHF and vise versa but the LORAN 
    was unaffected.
    	I also seem to remember seeing combination antennae (VHF & LORAN).
    If that's the case I guess there is enough separation in operating
    frequencies so that they don't interfere with each other.
    Regards,
    Paul

re .28:

Loran -- 100 kHz

VHF -- 150 MHz (1500 times higher)

Only one manufacturer (so far as I know) combines the VHF and loran 
antennas. Because of its high frequency, VHF is essentially line of 
sight and there is great benefit in having the antenna as high as 
possible (ie, at the masthead). Because of its low frequency, loran 
ground waves are usable up to some 600 or more miles from the 
transmitter. No particular benefit in having the antenna high. In fact, 
the cable losses from a masthead-mounted loran antenna might well 
actually reduce performance over a deck-level antenna. 

>     We'd like to use a t-connector near the 
>     cockpit but do we really need a splitter and what about a dummy load or 
>     terminator for the other connector?

One possibility:
   
   Wire the antenna connection to the cockpit site as an extension cable
   that runs from the below-decks site to the cockpit site. When you move
   the unit from below-decks to the cockpit, unplug the antenna cable from
   the unit and plug it into the extension cable.

   This scheme avoids the signal strength loss associated with a splitter.

--RS

    Re: .26
    
    There were a number of old notes on this subject, however, to recap
    briefly:
    
    Loran signals are ground waves, thus mounting up high on the
    mast is not useful. Also you need to stay away from shrouds and the
    backstay as much as possible. Picture the antenna as cone shaped and
    position it so that the cone does not intersect the backstay. This will
    result in a antenna that is tilted aft very roughly 20-25 degrees.
    
    The downside of this location is that it becomes very vunerable to
    breakage as this is a perfect position as something to grab. You can
    counter this somewhat by using an antenna mast extension (Shakespeare
    makes 4' and 8' extensions) to get it out of the way.

    
    re: .31
    
        and another way to protect it is to not tighten it down so
        much;  keep the coupler bracket loose enough so that with
        a little pressure applied it rotates on the stern rail rather 
        than cracking.  guests have tried to use it as a hand hold
        more than once, and it hasn't failed me yet.
    
        /Jim
     

> We'd like to use a t-connector near the cockpit but do we really need a 
> splitter and what about a dummy load or terminator for the other connector?

How far apart are the two mounting locations?  As long as they are less than
about a tenth (.1) of a wavelenght of cable away from the t-connector,  you
will have less loss than a splitter and dummy load.  You would want a water
and RF tight cap on the unused end however.

Wavelenght in cable is about 1/2 of free space (depends on type of cable).

Wavelenght = Speed of light / frequency = 300,000,000 / 100,000 = 3000 Meters

.1 wavelenght = 300 meters Free space ~ 150 meters in coax

How big is this boat????


Phil

    I want to thank each of you who responded to my questions concerning
    low cost lorans, in my case the Micrologic Voyager US1 loran receiver,
    navigational aid. In the end I decided that at $350 the Voyager
    represented a very good value for the money and I stuck with it. None
    of the other lorans mentioned (in the same price range: $300 - $350)
    impressed me as much as the Micrologic. 
    
    It's combination of the easy to understand English display, ease of
    data retrieval through the use of more function keys, Micrologic's
    reputation, and the low boat show price won me over. To be sure it
    lacks 100% waterproofing and trip route memory and auto waypoint
    sequencing that some other low priced units had, but it will be located
    such that water shouldn't be a problem, there is a workaround to trip
    routes, and conversations with others have convinced me that auto
    waypoint sequencing isn't a make it or break it decision point for me.
    In return for giving up these features found on other low priced units
    I feel I am getting more in return on the items I mentioned above. 
    
    No offense is intended toward the suggestions that you offered, they
    were good ones and made my final decision a difficult one. In the end
    though I feel good about my selection and now have some degree of peace
    of mind that I didn't when I started. 
    
    john 

re .34:                

>>> ... but it will be located such that water shouldn't be a problem ...

I once thought so, too, but after a wave down the companionway of our first 
boat drowned our VHF, I think differently. The question is when will it 
get wet, not if it will get wet. When the sea get rough, put a plastic 
bag over it.

:-)

    Does anyone have any experiences with one of those shorter (39"?)
    Loran antennas?   More specifically with an Apelco 6300 in the
    Mid-Coast Maine area?
    
    I don't usually go very far offshore and an 8' antenna seems like
    overkill on my small boat.

    My LORAN is a Raytheon 570 which I would imagine is basically the same
    as an APELCO since they are both made by the same company. The
    stainless steel whip antenna is probably 30" to 36" long and has worked
    superbly. The Raytheon has a signal strength indicator for the master
    and both slaves, they always read around 90 on a scale of 1 to 100. I
    have cruised the coast of Maine from Portland to Bar Harbor with no
    change in siganl strength or aquistion time with this LORAN and
    antenna. LORAN is very low frequency and especially on the receiving
    side antenna length is not critical. My antenna is mounted on the stern
    rail outside of the standing rigging and performs perfectly.

    I have the little Apelco (I think 6300).
    
    Its accuracy is invariably remarkable. I have about 20 typical
    locations in Narragansett Bay programmed in from a careful chart
    reading, and the Loran takes me within spitting distance all the time.
    
    I've done this for a year, no problems, all the way up to Boston and
    Provincetown. 
    
    The only thing that affected the machine has been electrical noise from
    the engine, which results in a low signal level. I solved this 100% by
    connecting up a battery purely for the instruments. A good grund helps
    a lot, too.
    
    Ray

    re: .-1
    
    So do you have a short antenna?
    

Has any one had any experience with:
        MARINETEK WAYPOINTER Loran
        "Provides all course information on one screen"

List                                    $595.00
BOAT US 'Member' price                  $319.95
BOAT US 'FITTING OUT SALE' price        $289.95    16-25 MARCH 1991

They also have the new RAY JEFFERSN PL-99 hand held at $199.99, if I had
not read so much negative press in this file on hand helds, I would be
quite tempted.

BOAT US is also having a 'Gala' Wine and Cheese Buffet tomorrow, March 16
form noon to 5pm.

Fred

    We used a Waypointer all last Summer.  It was purchased from Skipper
    and we used a 36" (?) stainless whip versus the 8" fiberglass whip
    usually used.  We also installed it ourselves with relative ease though
    finding a good ground early on messed up our inital readings, it
    wouldn't lock in.  
    
    Overall the unit proved to be very good.  We never had occasion to use
    it in any real inclement weather or fog.  All of the inputs were very
    straight forward and the display was easy to read.  Repeatability of
    stored waypoints seemed to be right on.  We did have a problem where the
    TD's were markedly different than LAT/LON readings which was described
    elsewhwere in this note I believe.  The instruction set is easy to read
    and all of the functions are very straight forward.  It took about 10
    minutes to figure out how to enter and store stuff as well as learn the
    basic functions.  It is also fairly small in size which makes it
    convenient to mount in many locations.  Repeated installation and
    removal was easy.  One interesting feature is a little display that
    shows which side of your course you are on and which way to steer
    to get to your next waypoint.      
    
    Practical Sailor did not review this unit when they did the other lower
    priced LORANs.  It wasn't available at the time or some such thing. 
    The article did remark that the innards are very similar to one or more
    of the other units as well as the apparent functionality/keyboard
    appearance.  They reserved judgement for another day.  $289.00 sounds
    like a good deal though. I think we paid closer to $400.00 with all of
    the Skipper value added.  All in all not a bad little unit.
    
    Brian

Great price on the PL-99.  I will put my order in on monday--I was close to
ordering one anyway and this is the right price.  I think that
whether a hand-held unit fits your needs depends a lot on what you need a 
loran for.  For me, I need something which I'll be able to use on different
boats, since I sail out of Boston Harbour sailing club.  This rules out 
permanently installed units.  The 1 biggest reason for me getting a loran, is
the fact that I dive, and need to be able to find diving spots surveyed over
after some time.  A handheld should be fine for that.  I would not rely on
one for hairy navigation in fog in a narrow channel, but I would also not
rely on any kind of loran for that (or any single instrument for that matter--
not even GPS).

The PL-99 has also a very nice feature--automatically internally adjustable
notch filters.  Take it anywhere in the world and use it (I'll be testing it
in Italy in June) without need for retuning, something that can't be said
for the Voyager, though the latter is allegedly better built.

F.

    I was just re-reading this note and came across the discussion of
    antennae.  Specifically their exposure to breakage if mounted on the
    stern rail.  True!  This is why you should mount it to the deck
    directly beneath the stern rail or even aft of the rail if possible. 
    Much less vulnerable to grabbing.  With the necessary angling aft (to
    avoid the backstay interference) it is out of the way and looks a heck
    of a lot better too.
    
    Dave

    We mounted ours at the end of our davit for the very same reason.  It
    got broken during a panic situation where someone tried to use it to
    steady themselves.   

    Another way is to have a pole made up with a 3ft piece welded to a half
    4 inches piece. This is then attached to the top of the push pit rail
    with two jubilee clips. The ariel is mounted to the top of the pole.
    If you are really trendy you could have a cross piece mounted at the
    top of the pole and have your ariel and the ariel for your mobile
    phone........If someone then grabs the pole as a hand hold the worst
    that can happen is that you have to realign the pole and retighten the
    jubilee clips.		  | ariel
    				|=|
    				|
    				|
    				|
    			     --|--|---
    		===============|==|==============
    
    Pete

    I have been looking at Loran for a while and it appears that some of
    the Handhelds are getting there in functionality and price.
    
    I will be making a 3-4 day offshore sail on a boat whose compass I have
    no knowledge of and I might use this as an excuse to go buy a hand help
    Loran.  I am looking at the:
    
    Ray-Jeff PL-99 - 100 waypoints, Ni-cad batteries etc.
    
    Any one out there want to comment before I invest $ 400.00 CDN plus 7%
    happiness tax ?

    Are you buying a handheld because of cost? I recently purchased an
    APELCO (which is not handheld) for $250 (U.S.) The antenna and mount
    cost another $30. The ability to ground a non-handheld may improve
    accuracy a bit.
    
    Bill
    

    No-one would believe me if I said that money was no object but really,
    no the reasons are more:
    1. Timing for the trip i.e. no time to install a loran on the boat.
    
    2. The flexibility of being able to carry this unit to other boats
    easily.
    

Hopefully this is the best note to post this question under.
___________________________________________________________


I have a RayNAV 570.  No problems at all with it until I powered it up this 
year and found that I have no cross-track error readings which also means 
that I have no visual cross-trach read out on the top of my screen.

Any ideas as to what might be happening?

thx

carl

re .49

To compute cross-track error, the unit must know

  a) where you started from

  b) where you are going

  c) where you are now.

Perhaps you haven't told it one of these, e.g. if there's no "previous
waypoint", the unit may assume that you are going from "here" to your
next waypoint, resulting in 0 cross-track error all the time.

--RS

    
    
    	$400 for a PL-99? They're more like $200- 220 in the catalogues,
    the Voyager Sport-nav more like $300. After a year of use, the only
    complaint I've heard from 2 owners was that they ate batteries pretty
    quickly. It makes lotsa sense to have lat/lon and course in the cockpit
    whenever you want it.
    
    	The lower-cost permanent versions start at about the same price as
    the PL-99. Think I'll pick up the Apelco 6300 myself, and the crew who
    have handhelds can use `em for cockpi & backup work.
    
    	And the one crew who spent $$$$$$ for the GPS can brag now, and be
    laughed at next year or so. Rockwell is introducing a GPS chipset for
    $400, to begin with. I figure GPS will be <1K next season, maybe half
    that later on....  At least we get some benefit from the Saddam
    excercise.
    
    Scott.

    Your $ 200-220 is probably not too far off my $ 400.  Mine is in
    Canadian dollars Vs. US.  The price I am looking at is the best I can
    find in Canada and unfortunately I will not be "south of the border" in
    time to get one.

RE :50

The attempt to compute was in the mode of "I am here and want to go to WP x".

>Perhaps you haven't told it one of these, e.g. if there's no "previous
>waypoint", the unit may assume that you are going from "here" to your
>next waypoint, resulting in 0 cross-track error all the time.


This would be an OK condition.  It isn't as if it says 0 XTE, what is says 
is nothing....that part of the display, analog as well as digital is gone.

Any hints?  

Perhaps the unit has blanked the XTE display because there's no previous
waypoint, so it makes no sense to compute XTE. You need to tell the unit
to "freeze" your present position and use it as the previous waypoint.
Thereafter, the unit will have a track line against which to measure XTE.

--RS

.54
>
>Perhaps the unit has blanked the XTE display because there's no previous
>waypoint, so it makes no sense to compute XTE. You need to tell the unit
>to "freeze" your present position and use it as the previous waypoint.
>Thereafter, the unit will have a track line against which to measure XTE.
>
Actually my unit always knows where it is so when you input the point you 
want get to it calculates A-->B where A is your present position.

Carl

I don't know if the Canadian noter who'd asked about the PL-99 has bought
one yet but here are some comments about it that may be useful to others...

I've used the PL-99 in two areas:  Southern Italy (off the Northern Sicilian
coast), and in Massachusetts Bay.  It had no trouble locking on to signals
in either place, so the claims of Ray Jeff that the notch filters automatically
adjust seem true.  It had heaps of trouble locking on to signals when the
engine was on however.  I would not buy this unit for use on a power boat.

For my purposes it was ideal.  It has allowed me to nail some dive sites
that were pointed out to me by Italian divemasters right on the head.  I
would not have found these otherwise (small shallow areas between islands).  I
don't use the engine much, and for most of my charter the engine was broken
anyway, so I don't care about its engine-on performance.  Mounting an antenna
and using a good ground will eliminate the interference anyway.

Also, when Ray Jeff states in its manual that you should almost never use
the non-automatic mode (that is you tell the Loran which GRI and signals to use
rather than having it figure it out), they mean it.  I tried running the
unit in non-automatic mode in Italy, and it gave me a position that was almost
a full NM off of where I was.  I put it in automatic mode, and the error
went down to about 50 feet.  Neat.  The TDs were the same, but the L-L display
changed.  Apparently in automatic mode the machine uses some "local knowledge"
to figure out where it is.  I don't know, but I'll never use it in non-automatic
mode unless I KNOW it's using the wrong signals (like in an overlap area).

Oh, and Ray Jeff is great about warranty repair.  I dropped the unit
(was sitting on a surface below, boat heeled...) and it went dead.  Ray Jeff
repaired it for free anyway.

Hope this helps other folks...


F.

    Thanks for that info.
    
    I did buy it as I was in a rush at the time to get my boat back from
    where she was to where I would like to have her.  Ice conditions and
    our fiscla year end conspired to overrule my rush, however given that I
    only had 1 day to prepare the boat, this unit was still the answer.
    
    Unfortunately, even though my navigator had worked on the unit for
    quite some time before, it did not work up to our expectation on the
    trip ---- we motored a lot and maybe that was the problem, similarly,
    because our Nav felt more comfortable on the 7930 chain rather than the
    5930, we overrode the automatic mode .... the unit then started to tell
    lies (that we could determine by actual position) consequently we
    relied very little on the loran.
    
    I will test your observations out next week-end.
    
    Thanks for the info.

    Now, how about a discussion re. antennas ?
    
    I have the Antenna coupler for a Ray-Jeff Pl99 which suggests using a
    standard 8' fiberglass whip.  I want to mount the coupler on either the
    transom or the stern rail and am not keen on having 8' sticking up in
    the air.  I have seen smaller stainless antennas on some boats and
    wondered if I may not use that instead ?

    I've used both with equal success.  Effectiveness seems to be more a
    function of the unit's sensitivity and quality of the ground.
    
    The smaller steel whip is, I think, 52" and works fine with a
    Micrologic loran & coupler.
    
    John

    I bought a two-piece 8' antenna for my Apelco DXL6300 and have yet to 
    mount the upper 4' segment as signal strengths are all very high.  This
    is in Mid-Coast Maine GRI 9960.
    
    If I get somewhere where the signals are weak, I'll just stick the
    other 8' on.   Best of both worlds.
    

I sailed Boston-Provincetown-Boston this last weekend, and got a chance to
experiment once again with my PL-99.  What happened was that the last time
I used the unit, it fell on the ground and the telescoping antenna snapped
off.  Since I still had not bought a new one, I grabbed a 10' piece of thick
gauge wire and screwed it into the place where the regular telescoping
antenna goes into.  The neat thing was that the unit actually performed
*BETTER* this way than with the factory provided antenna.  It locked onto
signals more quickly, got higher signal strengths, and actually even worked
with the engine running.  I'm now not going to order the factory telescoping
antenna.  One thing that also worked really well, was that when we were
having trouble getting a fix (not enough signal strength), tying the wire
to a spare haliard and hoisting it up high generally made the unit work
well.

Try it if you have a PL-99 and are unhappy with the reception in portable
mode.

F.

Am looking for a good hand held 'portable' LORAN.

Two I've seen advertised include a Micro Logic at $299, and a Voyager for 
$239.

Any experience out there, good or bad with hand held LORAN?