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Conference unifix::sailing

Title:SAILING
Notice:Please read Note 2.* before participating in this conference
Moderator:UNIFIX::BERENS
Created:Wed Jul 01 1992
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2299
Total number of notes:20724

997.0. "sail shape upgrades??" by VLNVAX::FRENIERE () Thu Sep 29 1988 10:59

    My boat is a traditional Alden cutter from the early 50s.
    
    It is 34', 24 on the WL. Sailing Narragnasett Bay, I see
    a number of 34' Pearsons. I have never raced them. I know
    they have a longer waterline length but find in 15 + knot
    winds I can keep up with them on a run. These and other
    fiberglass cruising boats (not talking J boats an the like)
    easily outpoint me and have a way of aggravating me by
    easily coming up from behind and gliding past me. I know
    they have smoother bottoms, tank tested hull shapes, less
    wetted surface, etc. etc. Yet my boats underwater shape
    is quite streamlined. My beam is 9'
    
    What I am observing is that these cruising boats of
    similar length pass me, and given hull improvements,
    I can accept that. What bothers me is that they are
    doing it too easily. I think my boat sould perform
    better.
    
    I can't change the underwater shape. Each year I get
    improvement in smoothness of the planked hull. But
    except for some fairing around the prop, there is
    no room for improvement.
    
    The area I can change is in the sails. Mine are a
    mixture of ages and the older ones don't have the
    newest ideas in sail shape. Even the shape they
    originally had is likely blown out by this time.
    What I see is the boats passing me have a main with
    a different profile. My luff is about 38', the foot
    is 17'. The Pearson and others look like their luff
    is about the same but with a foot that is perhaps
    10' with a roach that rises almost vertically
    for some distance before curving in an arc.
    
    Given my boom length of 18' you can imagine the speed
    the outer end is traveling when I jibe. And my sheet
    blocks are located on the outboard end of the boom to
    a position on the lazarette. Nice to have the sheet in
    back of me but with a 4:1 ratio I end up with a pile of
    sheet in the cockpit.
    
    So my question... without restepping my mast or changing
    the hull shape, is there some likely hood that I could
    make some measurable improvements in speed on various
    points of the wind by redesign of the sail plan? Or
    am I stuck where I am and need be content like the
    folks with gaff rigs are......?
    
    Don

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997.1ABE::HASKELLThu Sep 29 1988 11:1329
    Don;
    
    I don't know if this will help, but!
    
    I just bought a 30 foot Pearson Coaster. This boat is 20 years old
    and still flies the original sails. Yup, the're also 20 years old.
    Their shape, like mine shows the age.
    
    What I'm getting at is this. Last Monday we sailed her on a beam
    reach in 12 knot winds and were doing 7.2 knots on the sumlog. Another
    funny thing is that she can point between 35 and 40 degrees to the
    wind.
    
    When I asked the former owner if he would ever consider getting
    new sails? he said, "what for, these work great". He's right.
    
    When we were sailing monday, we came up on a new 30 foot Cape Dory
    on the same heading. Passed her about 500 feet off her starbord.
    Pretty boat with nice new sails that were well set. However, the
    speed that we passed her we wondered if she was dragging several
    anchors.
    
    I'm going to keep the old sails and be very content with the speed
    I get.
    
    Regards
    
    Paul

997.2MSCSSE::BERENSAlan BerensThu Sep 29 1988 11:3130
First, I'd suggest taking your present sails to a sailmaker who 
specializes in sails for cruising boats (eg, Tom Clark in Connecticut) 
and discussing your situation with him. New sails will undoubtedly help 
(but at no small price).

Second, modern rigs have higher aspect ratio sails (aspect ratio = 
height/foot) because they are more efficient. However, the taller the
mast, the wider the staying width at deck level must be to keep shroud
tensions reasonable. (If the angle between the shroud and mast is zero,
the tension is infinite for any side load. The tension for a given side
load decreases rapidly as the angle increases.) To keep the same sail
area you have now with higher aspect ratio sails means increasing mast
height. Since your boat is narrow (compared to recent designs), there is
a limit to how much more mast height you can have. Moreover, if you
increase the shroud/stay tensions, you risk distorting your hull. All
those stringers, frames, force grids, whatever built into many recent
designs are to keep the hulls from bending and distorting under rig
load. 

Third, the cloth loads in sails increase as the aspect ratio increases.
Hence the need for sail materials other than dacron. My view is, and the
racers among us will no doubt argue I'm wrong, that dacron sails are
less expensive and longer lived than sails using kevlar/mylar/spectra,
etc. At a guess, our nine year old dacron sails have as many as 15 000
miles and several gales on them and still have reasonably good shape.
The main and staysail recently survived some 50+ knot gusts while
sailing close hauled. 

Enjoy your boat as it is. There is always somebody faster and slower.

997.3Re-cutting and trim....LDYBUG::FACHONThu Sep 29 1988 15:3637
    It might be possible to recut the sails you have.
    It's amazing what can happen by taking a 1/16th of
    an inch out of a seam here and there.  Rowse Sails
    in East Greenwich R.I. (I think) might be someone
    to talk to about re-cutting old sails.  BTW, stick with 
    dacron if you build new sails, and I wouldn't 
    think about modifying the rig for reasons other than
    ease of handling.  You've got a classic, and I'd
    keep it that way.
    
    Even without buying new sails or what-have-you, you might 
    be able to get more performance with the sails you have.  For
    instance, when going to weather, you generally need
    to crank in more halyard tension as the wind velocity
    increases.  This helps to keep the sail's draft forward
    -- especially important for the jib.  Start with almost
    no tension in 3 or less knots, and work your way up to
    a healthy crease running the length of the hoist (this
    BEFORE sheeting the sail in) in 15 knots of more.
    Proper adjustment can make marked improvements in 
    pointing and speed.  Also, did you say your main has a 
    traveler?  If so, experiment with different traveler positions 
    and sheet tensions.  For instance, when on the wind in light air, 
    you'd want to bring the traveler a foot or so to weather and sheet
    the boom no higher than the boat's centerline.  This
    helps to open up the leech.  As the velocity increases,
    let the traveler down and increase sheet tension to
    flatten the leech.
    
    If you can't get the performance you want through more
    aggressive sail trim, you'll just have to decide how
    much it's worth to go faster.  But be realistic
    about your expectations.  No suit of sails or high-aspect
    rig is going to make your boat go like an Etchells 22.
    
    ;)

997.4Spot the prop, too...LDYBUG::FACHONThu Sep 29 1988 15:503
    Forgot to mention.  Spot the prop -- if you don't already.
    That makes a BIG difference!

997.5Yankee anyone?VLNVAX::FRENIEREThu Sep 29 1988 16:3666
    re .3
    
    Restoration took up most of the first two years. Without a
    vang, had to sail so conservatively. When I got the vang on
    and found I could jibe last spring, that is when I really
    started to work on performance.
    
    Keeping tension on the main luff is a bit of a problem.
    With non-wire halyard, I find after and hour or so that
    the main has lost tension and there is slack between
    the tack and first slide. I hope a new halyard this year
    will help.
    
    I have a short travler, perhaps a foot long with a block to
    one side and the sheet nailed to a pad eye on the other.
    I had read some items last year on bringing the main over
    to weather as you suggest and did notice marked improvement.
    
    Another question if I may. I have the original sail plan.
    It shows that originally it had a long club jib.
    The plans identify it as a staysail.
    The foot ran from the base of the forestay to just about 
    the mast. It had originally it's own heavier staysail forestay.
    with a device at the tack for a gooseneck and a pelican hook
    to tie it to the bow forestay base plate. It  was fstened about
    2/3 the way up the mast.
    Then a forestay of lighter heft that ran obviously from the bow
    forestay deck plate to the mast head. A good sized Yankee was
    shown on the drawing. Just another note, there is a lot of rake
    to the mast which I understand should help it point higher.
    
    When I got the boat there was no club jib or Yankee. It had a
    150 Geno and a working jib that overlapped the mast by about a foot.
    Ic did not like the idea of having the full length of the foredeck
    covered by that long a boom. Rather than reproduce it as an 11 foot
    unit I made a club of about 8' 6". There was a bronze eye in the
    deck just the right distance back from the forestay deck plate to
    which the pelecian hook matched perfectly. Meriman has an outlet
    for older rigging it had in stock so I was able to get the missing
    goose neck parts. I had the jib cut down to fit this triangle. It
    gives me enough control when single handing to manage it.
    
    I had a new Yankee made.  I think it was New England Sailmakers
    in Mattapoisett figured what the new shape should be.
    Since it was a new sail and I wanted to get my bucks out of it,
    I used it last year when I probably should have used the Geno
    a lot of times.
    
    Now the Genoa is rather short on the luff. It seemed to me that
    the best point for the Yankee was to hoist it all the way up
    when pointing up in say 5 knot winds, dropping it as the wind picked
    up. Dowsing it for the Genoa say over 8 knots. It seemed like the
    Genoa was the best performer on all other points and winds up to
    15+ knots when usually relied on the small club....
                                                       
    Did I ask a question??  Well, what I'm interested in is how best
    to use that Yankee under what conditions. I have yet to find a book
    on sails that does much more than say there is such a sail and it
    is used on a lot of off shore cruising cutters. I'm gaining my
    own experiences with it of course, but wonder if someone out there
    can suggest what the thinking was/is in the idea behind using a
    Yankee. I spent so much time in fog or under crewed this year
    that I think the Yankee was only hanked on a couple of times.
    
    Don

997.6yVLNVAX::FRENIEREThu Sep 29 1988 16:415
    re .4
    
    You mean hiding it behind the dead wood?
    

997.7MSCSSE::BERENSAlan BerensThu Sep 29 1988 18:0435
A Yankee jib is simply a jib with a high cut clew -- ie, the clew is
several feet off the deck. Our Yankee is a 100% jib with the clew about
five feet above the deck. There are at least two advantages to a Yankee
jib. First, you can see under it easily when heeled far over. Very
important when sailing shorthanded. (It is so hard to see around our
deck sweeper 133% genoa that we are going to have the clew raised and
forego the extra bit of aerodynamic efficiency obtained by having the
foot on deck.) Second, when going to windward in heavy weather any waves
that come on deck won't hit the foot of the jib, possibly destroying it.
This is why Yankees are so popular with the offshore folks.

Many cutters are rigged with a clubfooted staysail, a few are not. The 
one advantage to a clubfooted staysail is that it is self-tacking, just 
like the mainsail. However, the shape of a clubfooted staysail is 
usually very poor, and I, for one, have no desire to have a boom 
sweeping across my foredeck, especially when it comes time to douse the 
staysail and raise the storm jib. Our staysail is loose footed, which
requires two staysail sheet winches. A loose footed staysail can be
allowed to backwind when tacking. This blows the bow of the boat around
very quickly, making our boat at least extremely manueverable (Julie and
I have frequently beat into and out of Marblehead Harbor) under main and 
staysail. Also, on our boat the headstay (the one to the masthead) is 
larger than the forestay (staysail stay).

Our forestay is rather close to the headstay (what else on a 32' boat?), 
making it difficult for the Yankee to blow through the narrow gap 
between the fore and headstays. When tacking, we let the staysail 
backwind until the Yankee has slid along it and come around. A Yankee 
jib can be used any time. We almost always use both Yankee and staysail 
and rarely bother with the genoa unless we are trying to make a longish 
passage in very light winds (under say 10 knots) with only occasional 
tacking. If your cutter is like our cutter, it will sail much, much 
better with both staysail and Yankee than with just one or the other.


997.8LDYBUG::FACHONFri Sep 30 1988 11:586
    re .6
    
    Yup.
    
        ;)

997.9EMASA2::HOFri Sep 30 1988 15:1848
    Low aspect rig, split foretriangle, full keel, and heavy displacement
    mean a comfortable reaching boat at the expense of some windward
    ability.  If your boat is able to keep up with newer designs in
    a breeze when running, the advantage of the low aspect ratio is
    offsetting the heavier displacement.  I don't know how heavy your
    boat is but a Pearson 34 will be about 12,000 - 14,000 lbs.  
    
    If boats are smoking by when only one of the headsails is up, that's
    to be expected.  Headsails produce much more power per sq. ft. than
    mains.  Not filling up the foretriangle significantly depowers the
    rig.  Conversely, the most effective upwind combination for a short
    rig is the decksweeper 160 genoa.  I remember changing from a working
    jib to one of these on a Bermuda 40 and feeling the boat come alive
    as we picked up another 2 + knots.  But there were 12 on board at the
    time and we needed most of them to set and trim it.   Definitely
    not the sail for short handed cruising. 
    
    If you don't have telltales on all the jibs, it will be useful to
    put some on.  I recommend at least two sets on each sail spaced
    equally along the luff about 1 or 1.5 feet back.  On the main, put
    one on the aft end of the top batten.  Ideally the jib telltales
    should move in unison if the shape is matched to the wind shear
    and the sails trimmed to complement each other.  Since your sails
    are older, check for asymmetries and discontinuities in sail shape.
    Is there backwinding in the main that can't be eliminated with sheet,
    cunningham, and outhaul tension?  Any hard ridges, leech fall-off,
    or terminal batten pocket poke evident in the main?  Or 1/x**2 shaped
    wrinkles that can't be pulled out?  If so, probably time for a re-cut.
    When trimming the main upwind I like to keep the top batten parallel
    to the boom with the boom on the centerline.  Falling off to a close
    reach, drop the traveler rather than easing the sheet to keep the
    top of the main driving.  If the traveler is too short, put on enough
    vang tension to keep the top batten just stalled.  Air will flow
    over the main through a wide range of sheeting angles but max power
    occurs only at the initial stall point.
    
    When trimming the jibs, play with halyard tension to see the effect
    on sail depth and draft position.  Take the gross scalloping out
    but don't reduce depth so much that drive suffers.  Put on enough
    backstay and runner to keep the head and fore stays from bouncing
    but not so much as to excessively reduce depth.  Going up wind I
    like sheeting the Jib so a tangent to the leech half way between
    the clew and head points straight back.  Obviously there is a lot
    of trial and error involved here and those who are compulsive string
    pullers find it enjoyable.  Of course, many whose sailing interests
    lie elsewhere find this type of activity insufferable.