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Conference unifix::sailing

Title:SAILING
Notice:Please read Note 2.* before participating in this conference
Moderator:UNIFIX::BERENS
Created:Wed Jul 01 1992
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2299
Total number of notes:20724

992.0. "Aluminum for rudder?" by VIDEO::HELLMAN () Tue Sep 27 1988 09:36

    For reasons that are too embarrassing to go into here, I need to
    replace the rudder on my 22.  I was going to cut it out of a 1/4"
    sheet of aluminum, but someone told me that there might be some
    sort of reaction between aluminum, salt water, and anti-fouling
    paint.  Does anyone know about such things?  Is there something
    better than aluminum for this application?
    

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992.1MSCSSE::BERENSAlan BerensTue Sep 27 1988 09:5910
Yup, electrolysis will occur between the copper in the bottom paint and 
the aluminum unless the proper painting procedures are used. A barrier 
coat is needed between the aluminum and the bottom paint. For example, 
Interlux (who has a customer assistance 800 number) can tell you how to 
do it.

What was the original rudder made of? Aluminum plate won't have a very 
efficient shape.


992.2DNEAST::HALL_MERRILLTue Sep 27 1988 13:117
    Other factors...is your boat wood or GRP?  What material is the
    rudder stock?  Any bronze thru hulls around?  Inbd enginee?  
    Bottom paints recommended for aluminum don't often adhere well
    to GRP and using both kinds at the same time would badly react.
    why not a glass laminate over airex core...plywood...pressed and
    rolled gerfleuble?

992.3VIDEO::HELLMANTue Sep 27 1988 15:589
    re .1 - The original rudder is aluminum (or to be more precise,
    the blade is aluminum - the blade being the piece that broke). 
    The upper half is fiberglass.
    
    re .2 - the boat is fiberglass, no inbd. engine.  I'm looking for
    something that won't be too difficult to fabricate.  Plywood would
    be difficult, because I would have to rebuild the upper half of
    the rudder assembly.

992.4More problems with AlCDR::SPENCERJohn SpencerMon Oct 03 1988 13:5335
Coupla' thoughts:

Aluminum is a generic term; if you finally decide on using it, you
probably should do some research in order to be more specific.  My guess 
is that two features of aluminum (and its close kindred alloys) you may
wish to consider are corrosion resistance and hardness.  The former may 
vary considerably, and the latter I believe translates in practical terms 
to stiffness.  (Some hardnesses you can bend a 1/4" sheet by hand, though
that action then hardens it locally at the bend, making attempts to bend
it back result in a S-curve of some degree.) 

One solution to antifouling aluminum is a TBT paint, *but*... As of
mid-June or July 1989, the stuff is banned for sale or use, unless: 
	- Applied by a licensed professional, AND
	- On an aluminum hull of any length, or any material hull over 
		82' in length.
	- Application by non-licensed people (like us) is explicitly
		verboten after that date, though everyone who has a locker
		full of next year's stock can get it on before the early
		summer cutoff date. 

If you went this route, maybe you can have your rudder painted as part of
another boat job, at a reasonable cost.   Or resort to a barrier system. 

Why not consider epoxy resin, with a judicious application of carbon 
fiber?  It's quite cost effective -- you only need a few short tows to 
beat the aluminum for strength, and it'll be lighter, too.  As well as 
easy to paint when the hull is done.  You could easily fair the shape from 
a foam core to make it faster through less resistance.  Meade Gougeon
(Gougeon Bros) has info on home-building with carbon-reinforced epoxy. 

Aluminum seems like the difficult way to go.

J.

992.5small aluminum sailboatsSTARCH::HAGERMANFlames to /dev/nullTue Dec 24 1991 09:507
    Just as a matter of curiosity, what's the smallest aluminum
    sailboat?  It seems a bit wierd that rowboats and canoes and fishing
    boats are made of aluminum, some with slab-sided shapes but some
    with complicated curves, but except for big custom boats, sailboats
    generally aren't aluminum.  Is there, say, a 22' aluminum keelboat?
    
    Doug.
992.6Small aluminum sailboatsVIKA::HUGHESTANSTAAFLTue Dec 24 1991 12:277
There was a dinghy on Bear Hill Pond in Harvard MA. this summer that was all
aluminum. I'd quess it was about 14 feet. Had a hull alot like your standard
aluminum skiff, but the forward part was decked over and a centerboard was
installed. I suppose it could have been a conversion but, if so, it was neatly
done.

Mike H
992.7Cost?EMDS::MCBRIDETue Dec 31 1991 10:0312
    I believe aluminum become too expensive in smaller sailboats compared
    to glass or wood.  It also requires special skills and equipment for 
    welding.  Steve Dashew elaborates somewhat on this in the 
    Circumnavigator's Handbook where he describes designing and building 
    Intermezzo II and the resultant Deerfoot line.  I believe after a 
    certain hull size (40'?) it becomes economically more in line with other 
    materials.  It is a good material to build with, great strength to weight 
    ratio but there are attendant problems with corrosion and electrolysis 
    that need special handling.  Great impact resistance and easily repaired 
    to boot.  
    
    Brian
992.8molded aluminum sailboat R&D SELECT::SPENCERTue Dec 31 1991 14:2771
RE: .5,  >>>  Is there, say, a 22' aluminum keelboat?
    
Well, there almost was.  (Windy story follows; press NEXT REPLY or NEXT 
NOTE for relief.)  In the early 70's I spent a year or more working 
with a guy intent on mass producing a small cruising boat in aluminum.  
Aluminum's advantages include high strength-to-weight (stronger than steel 
per pound, more energy absorption on impact than steel albeit at the price
of greater deformation), easily worked by someone knowledgeable, just as 
weldable as steel, and overall making for a remarkably tough boat.  And 
work-hardened as it's built, maybe...if it can be built that way, at least... 

Ted Brewer designed a sweet little 24-foot canoe stern double-ender for 
the project, with typical Brewer cutaway keel profile.  Many of you may
actually know this design, as it eventually evolved into Quickstep 24, now
built of f.g. in RI.  Anyway, we built a hull plug, from which we built a
split mold, each half of which looked rather like the rind of a slice of
cantelope.  The plan was to mold two opposing half-hulls, then weld them 
along the bottom seam from stem to stern.  The original hull production
plan (which was successfully realized in several 1/8 scale models) was to
hold a sheet of 6061-T3 (I think it was) over the half-mold, place the
whole shebang under water to distribute the force, and then fire carefully
placed explosive charges over it to instantly force the aluminum into the
mold.  The three-foot half-models were certainly fun to make!  However,
after some thought and reflection, it was decided that explosively molding
a full-size hull might be unnecessarily dramatic, as well as unpredictably
hard on our valuable tooling; after some calculations, we determined that
50 lbs/sq ft water pressure would easily exert sufficient force to do the
job, and would allow more control since the process would occur more
slowly.  However, several technical problems cropped up, which were never
sufficiently resolved before the investors' money (>$100K) ran out. 

First, the explosive technique provided a higher percentage of stretch 
molding vs draw molding.  (Draw molding is where the material pulls into
the mold around the edges; stretch molding is what happens if the edges
are held tight, or the event happens to fast for the material to draw.) 
That was good, as it gave smooth compound curves, and work-hardened the
metal at the same time.  But these advantages were given up with the 
change to hydraulic molding.

Second, hydraulic molding was much more draw than stretch.  Draw molding
posed problems when the material began to form, as it wrinkled the edges,
which either: A) opened leaks, reducing pressure and stopping the process,
or B) prevented drawing at all if we tightened the mold cover down enough
to prevent wrinkling.  50 psi isn't enough to stretch mold alone, since 
the material work hardens on it's way to final shape, and that requires 
much more pressure to overcome, and even led to tears (...both the ripping 
of metal and resultant salty water droplets in eyes!) 

Third, aluminum (like most metals) is elastic to some degree, and we 
discovered that over-molding is required to end up with the desired final
shape.  It's a monumental problem to predict how much over-molding in
exactly what areas is needed, and then to build a plug/mold reflecting
that.  And it isn't predictably repeatable, either, probably in part 
because metal isn't a truly uniform material at the molecular level.

What we did learn, however, is that aluminum is remarkably easy to weld 
with a bit of practice, even as amateurs like ourselves.  The key is the 
right alloy and sufficient thickness to absorb the local heating without 
burning through -- that's also a function of practice and building up 
speed.  The mad inventor, Jack Winninghoff, went on to form Winninghoff 
Boats in Rowley, MA, and has been remarkably successful in traditional 
aluminum boat building of many non-traditional designs.  If you can 
justify the material weight of 1/8 or greater plate thickness, which works 
out to about a 25-footer, then aluminum is grand.  I've ridden in and 
driven a few of Jack's boats, and they're great for what they are.  Rugged 
enough to be a major seller as small-scale landing craft!  Yes, there are
some very real electrolysis issues, but if it's a well-tended workboat
or oft-used pleasure machine, instead of spending much time as an
expensive mooring buoy, these can be managed quite reasonably. 

J.