Conference unifix::sailing

    Yes, you did have the supposed right of way but remember the first rule
    of the road (they're called COLREGS for COLlision REGlations) is to
    AVOID A COLLISION AT ANY COST including breaking the rules of the road. 
    
    Maybe he had a blind side, maybe he didn't but your first duty is to
    avoid the collision. Could you have tacked or fallen off and waited for
    him to pass and avoided the situation ? The rule giving sailboats the
    right of way is not because of our inherent purity of heart but because
    in most situations we have more restricted manuveuring capability and
    can't react as well. 
    
    Also you could have sounded a horn making clear your intentions; 1
    blast or 2 blasts or 5 blasts. 
    
    Coming back from Provincetown one weekend I passed the Oceania coming
    in for DECWORLD. I had the right of way, I was under sail, she was not
    restricted in maneveuring, but prudence dictated that I tack and lie
    aside until she had passed (and pass very far behind her
    wake/slipstream). 
    
    Although I am no fan of power boats - especially lobstermen who mine
    harbors with prop and rudder fouling pots, (and usually act like they
    are own the sea) I have seen many sailboats pull moves that are
    really pretty raw like; 
    
      a. Sailing through a diving area because they are racing.
      b. Sailing through a mooring area at hull speed and screaming
         at a power boat trying to pick up their mooring.
      c. Sail boards crossing through a thin channel where sail boats
         coming in under power are restricted to where they can go by
         depth.
      d. Sailboats not falling off when coming up to a lobsterman slowing
         down to pick up a pot.
    
    Although the fine specimen of Power-Boatus-Idiotus was wrong and was
    pretty obnoxious. Wouldn't better caution/courtesy on your part
    avoided the whole scene ?
    
    /jim

One point under the Rules of the Road: When a collision is possible,
BOTH vessels are REQUIRED to take appropriate action to avoid collision.
As you have described your experience, it sounds as if you should have
changed course much sooner. If there had been a collision and if you had
made no attempt to avoid the collision, you could well be found at
fault. 

Having said that ..... The fact that the fishing vessel has a blind spot
does not excuse the crew of the fishing vessel from their responsibilities 
under the Rules of the Road. It is important to recognize, however, that
the view from the bridge of all large (any boat that could damage my 
boat in a collision is large) vessels is obstructed to some degree. The
blind spot ahead of a large ship could be a mile or more. It is foolish
to assume that you have been seen by the crew of the other vessel. 

Having said that ..... Many operators of powerboats and sailboats do not 
have any idea what the Rules of the Road are. It is by far the safest 
course to assume that they don't. 

    Well said Alan.  It's always safest to assume that people operate
    their boats the same way they operate their cars.  And in this state
    you know what that means.
    
    Kinda reminds me of the classic cartoon of the sailboat sailing
    practically into the bow of the ship with the caption reading "Don't
    worry Martha, we have rights."  Maybe you do, but that'll only help
    you win a court case after the accident.
    
    ... Bob

    RE: .1-.3
    
    Read his lips, willya...
    
>    We couldn't get any closer to the wind to pass astern, and going off
>    the wind would have still maintained a course converging on the vessel. 

    It's not as if we were the America's Cup catamaran racing out of
    nowhere at 25 knots.  This guy's blindside had to have been 180
    degrees for him not to have seen us.  Either that, or he had his
    head up his ass.
        
    We held our course, not from stubbornness, but rather to avoid a
    dodging match in which he couldn't figure out which way we were going
    next. 

    I wanted to ask him where the hell he learned to drive that thing, but
    he was circling around for another pass and he could have sunk us if he
    wanted to, so we just held our course and our tongues. 

    What an idiot. 

RE:.1 by SALEM::MCWILLIAMS

> To stir the pot somewhat ... 
And somewhat more.

> Yes, you did have the supposed right of way but remember the first rule
> of the road (they're called COLREGS for COLlision REGlations) is to
> AVOID A COLLISION AT ANY COST including breaking the rules of the road. 
> The rule giving sailboats the right of way is not because of our inherent 
> purity of heart but because in most situations we have more restricted
> maneuvering capability and can't react as well. 

Yes oh yes!

Ever been on a lake with lots of rowing shells (and light winds)?  You, as 
sail-power, must avoid rowing shells that are moving at maybe 10 times your 
speed?  Ever been around sailboards?  It is real hard to miss them, when 
they are moving at 5 times or more your speed.  I saw such a collision 
in a crowded anchorage, as a sailboard, moving at 10 knots or more ducked
the stern of an anchored boat and plowed into a powerboat moving at 
maybe 1/2 knot.  I am sure that the powerboat had no chance of avoiding 
collision.  Who is to blame?  Not the powerboat.  Even if he was keeping
a sharp lookout all around, and did all he could, the sailboard was going
to hit him.

Remember rule #0: if they can't see you, the right of way rules don't apply.
And rule #1: Always avoid collision.  
And rule #1A Especially if they are larger than you.  
And rule #1B Especially if your are moving faster than them.

A collision at sea can spoil your day.


Phil

    Maybe I'm missing something here.  You say you were constrained
    by the direction of the wind.  As I picture the incident the wind
    was essentially blowing 90 degrees to the stinkpot's course on his
    starboard beam.  You were converging on a starboard tack, close
    hauled, staring at his port bow.  (How am I doing so far?).  Why
    were you hampered from coming about to a port tack and passing behind?
    
    Encore

re .4:

As a sailor: 

Course changes to avoid a collision should be large enough and early
enough so that the intentions of the boat changing course are quite clear. 

>    We couldn't get any closer to the wind to pass astern, and going off
>    the wind would have still maintained a course converging on the vessel. 

Try tacking next time.


re .4:

As moderator:

I would like to remind everyone that politeness and proper language 
should be used in writing and replying to notes. Notes/replies that are 
rude, tasteless, or offensive will be deleted.

As a long-time denizen of Gloucester Harbor, and one familiar with the 
local types, unfortunately I'm not surprised.  

One of the paradoxes of the Rules of the Road is that you lose your rights
if you alter course.  Indeed, before the Unified Rules (Colregs successor)
the two converging vessels were termed the Burdened Vessel and the
Stand-On Vessel.  So you face a judgment call on when to alter course --
you need to hold it to maintain your rights (sail over power, stbd over
port, etc), and yet you're also burdened with equal responsibility _in
extremis_ (legal term) for avoiding a collision if at all possible.  If
you're all over the place, he's got a case possibly that your course was
erratic and therefore unpredictable to avoid. 

The one thing you could and should have done is what .1 mentioned:  blow 
your horn.  Learn the horn signals, and use the appropriate one for the 
given situation.  Even if the other guy only hears it and doesn't know 
what you mean specifically (there are very specific meanings for different 
numbers and lengths of horn blasts), you'll get his attention and cover 
your hiney if something later happens in court.  (Failure to signal using 
available means cost a Tampa Bay pilot his license a few years back.)  

If it comes to it, knowing your Rules of the Road cold and following them
stands up very well in court, especially when the other guy doesn't and
didn't. 

BTW, another situation which happens frequently, and is misunderstood by 
many (most?) fishermen, concerns right of way when fishing.  Most people 
remember the general rule about fishing boats having right of way, even 
over sailboats, but few know that there is a clear and significant 
exception to that:  When a boat is trolling, it enjoys the sames rights as 
any other motor vessel underway, and no more.  I've been sworn at and 
thrown at dozens of times by boats with a line or two out the back, 
telling me they have right of way.  They don't, but avoid 'em anyway.  One 
good hassle can sour a fine sail.

J.

    RE .6
    
    Almost.  He had the wind dead astern, converging at an obtuse angle
    with a course modification well within his options.
    
    Our option to hold the course was to avoid dodging around in the
    event he elected to make that correction.
    
    The horn??  Oh, yeah.... I got that right over on the lazaret..
    or is it in the ... try in the green box over the...   - point well
    taken.  
    
    Ron

    Only ever come across three near collision situations myself but
    they highlight the point made here -
    	1. A racing dinghy, both of us on s'bd and him to windward.
    	   I was moving *very* slowly having just dropped the jib
    	   ready to enter harbour. Fortunately he knew the collregs.
    
    	2. A 35' basking shark heading straight for me. No way was
    	   I going to hold my course (sail over power?).
    
    	3. My cruising ground also happens to be a submarine exercise
    	   area and all you ever usually see of them if you're lucky
    	   is a periscope bearing down on you at 30kts plus. Want to
    	   hold your "right of way"? Not me!
    
    Common sense is the only way. One, learn the collregs by heart so
    at least you can (sometimes) predict the other person's actions.
    Two, if in doubt, come about.
    
    Brian

    I mention this not to imply a criticism, but because the following
    rule has served me well to avoid potential conflicts:
    
    	Boats at work have right-of-way over boats at play
    
    (Where I've always been the boat at play). Boats at work include
    dude schooners and party boats, in my book, since the owner/driver
    is making his living running the boat, whether the passengers are
    or not.
    
    I suspect you encountered an extreme case of a fisherman who hates
    pleasure boaters and/or sailboats; as usual, there is an entirely
    spectrum of attitudes towards pleasure boaters on the part of the
    working sailor. I figure that in general my schedule or course,
    etc., while on the water aren't particularly urgent, and his may
    be (or at least he feels that way about it). So I usually just give
    way.
    
    In any case, I've had a lot more hassle from pleasure boaters who
    are utterly ignorant of the rules of the road (or assume that they
    learned all they needed to know on the Southeast Expressway).
    
    To reiterate, I don't mention this as a criticism, but as a tactic
    which I find satisfactory. It's also a bit of a kick to see the
    dumbfounded look on a working boat skipper's face when you clear
    his course even though you have right-of-way (assuming, of course,
    that you're close enough).
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    Not that I'm getting defensive about this, and the suggestions of
    warnings are sage advise, but.....
    
    re .1  This was not the Oceania - it was a 30 foot power boat, the
    sort you see every day in all locations and for which one routinely 
    makes the kind of course corrections all the time.  His intentions
    were not at all clear and absent any correction on his part holding
    the course seemed like the proper thing to do in 99 of 100 cases.
    
    re .2 + .5 + .7 "Foolish to assume you were seen...." strikes me
    as advise that would lead to constant tacking and evasion for
    any vessel within a mile.  How many of you-all actually do that?
    My impression is that this strategy would indeed lead to wandering all over
    the water, leading to major league confusion to all who do understand
    and follow colregs.  How realistic is this approach?
    We did take evasive action when the collision was a real possibility.
    
    re .10  Wouldn't "common sense" lead one plan for the typical situation
    (i.e. the power boat makes the first move) rather than the unusual
    one (i.e. the professional fisherman doesn't know the colregs)?
    
    re .11 Good general advise about boats at work, which this wasn't.
    
    Tack-fully yours,
    Ron              

    RE .12
    
    I think I can see your point.  It's difficult to believe that a
    30 foot boat has a blind spot so large as to miss seeing a mast
    and sail as he is approaching.  And if he does, why isn't somebody
    up there on look-out for less visible objects, like a small powerboat
    anchored and fishing (a common enough occurrance in Gloucester Harbor).
    
    It sounds like you just ran into one of those rednecks of the sea
    who harbors a grudge against anybody who wants to use the same water
    where he "makes his living".  And there's really not much you can
    do with folks like that, except either stay out of his way of confront
    him.  Personally I think the confrontation is not worth it.
    
    Incidentally, people with this kind of attitude don't just have
    it in for sailboats.  I have a good friend who dives up in the
    Gloucester area, and he's got some real horror stories about the
    things some lobstermen and fishermen do when they see a diving flag.
    
    Best to just take evasive action (given the time and opportunity),
    but I can see your point that it's tough to anticipate when you're
    about to encounter one of these types.
    
    How'd your session with the C.G. go anyway?  Did they have anything
    to say that would shed enlightenment on this particular situation.
    
    And thanks for naming the boat.  I sail up in that area several
    times a year, either on a Hobie Cat or on a larger boat.  I'll now
    know to steer clear of this particular vessel.
    
    ... Bob
    

    I guess I'm jumping in a little late on this one. When I read .0 I
    couldn't figure out why a simple tack wasn't in order. Now I
    see that everyone has beat that to death...
    
    But... 
    
    Do I have a problem focusing in on the pertinent details of this
    episode or am I the only one to notice the fantastic performance
    of this fishing boat and her skillful captain?
    
>    the cockpit for a sandwich.  He was within 20 feet when he slammed
>    the prop into resverse, I paid off to take at worst a glancing blow
>    from this idiot.
>    
>    The final position of his bow was about two feet from midships of
>    my 19 foot boat.
    
    Was he *really* able to stop this thing in 18' (less than a boat length)? 

    :^) :^) :^) 

    Sorry, had to ask.
    J_R

RE:.12 by HAVOC::GREEN

> "Foolish to assume you were seen...." strikes me as advise that would 
> lead to constant tacking and evasion for any vessel within a mile.  

The skipper of the power boat might have turned on his auto-helm and went
below for a "head visit".  Not prudent on his part, but when nature calls..

I would not make a course change until it was getting close.  Then, you
are a fool not to make a large course change, followed by some carefully
chosen words.  And thanks for the report to the Coast Guard.  If they get
enough complaints, they may try out the "Zero Tolerance Plan" on his boat.


Phil

    From the relative comfort of my arm-chair this appears to be a case
    of bear-baiting. I've seen sailors do this to other sailors even,
    heaven forfend! Common courtesy must always apply in life. Perhaps
    a tour on a power boat in congested sailing waters should become
    a part of a sailors training. 
    
    Fair winds and a fair tide always. Ed

    "Captain, sensors indicate cheap shots coming in from somewhere
    in the DEC sector"
    
    "Thank you Mr. Spock.  Mr. Sulu, prepare to take evasive action"
    
    "Aye, Keptin."
    
    
    RE .14
    
    > or am I the only one to notice the fantastic performance of this
    > fishing boat and her skillful captain?
    
    > Was he *really* able to stop this thing in 18'?
    
    No, probably not.  Perhaps everyone else noticed that *both* vessels
    were moving, and that while the relative distance between the two
    boats only changed by 18 feet, the actual distance travelled by
    both vessels was almost certainly a lot greater than that.
    
    How do I come to that conclusion ???
    
    RE .0
    
    "I paid off to take at worst a glancing blow"
    
    Ever move the tiller on a stationary boat and see what happens ??
    
    I thought so ...
    
    
    Sorry, I couldn't resist the urge to answer a cheap shot with one
    of my own ... :^) :^)
    
    ... Bob

    I know everyone else has replied to this one, so I might stick my
    2� in too...
    
    I make it a practice on a boat to do what I do in a car. When I
    see I may be on a converging course with another vessel (or car),
    I first check to see if the other "driver" has seen me too. If
    so I decide how the right-of-way rules apply here and take appropriate
    action.  If I cannot see the other driver has seen me I alter
    course (or speed in the car) to ensure we are not converging on
    the same spot.  On the highway, I think they call this defensive
    driving. Sailors call it prudent.
    
    In the case of a vessel that does not seem to have a course that
    is consistant or identifiable, I give more room, depending on the
    speeds involved.
    
    But see I learned my basic boating methods on a vessel that was
    425' long and drew 28' when surfaced.  The owners did not take
    kindly to banging into things.
    
    Walt 

    Re: .17
    
    Actually Bob, I was trying to aim my 'cheap shot' at the fishing
    boat skipper - tongue-in-cheek. Sorry if you think I had it the
    other way around.
    
    The way I saw it, after reading notes .6 and .9 as well as .0 was
    that the two boats were converging at a rate faster than either
    was moving, i.e., midway between head on and a t-bone. With the
    sailboat bearing off, now I figured that he was a dead-duck, with
    the fishing boat approaching straight into his starboard beam.
    
    If I'm right about this, then for all intents and purposes, yes,
    by bearing off the sailboat may as well have been stopped.
    The fishing skipper probably had him dead in his sights for a loooong
    time and stopped just in time, cutting it as close as possible to
    make a sick point.
    
    The only relevant point I want to make in this whole discussion is that
    at least four lives were at stake in this situation that didn't have to
    be. And I don't want that to sound like a better-than-though attitude
    or a position taken with 20/20 hindsight. 
    
    As others have requested, I too would like to hear the reaction
    of the CG when the protest was filed. If I ever find myself in a
    similar situation, and Lord knows there are plenty of opportunities
    in Wood's Hole I'd like to know if it's worth the trouble to make
    the effort of a formal protest.

    J_R
    
    Actually my comment about Woods Hole is only directed at a small
    minority of pleasure power boaters. Never had a problem with either a
    commercial fishing boat or a ferry in that area. Also the fishing
    traffic making a beeline out of New Bedford thru Quicks Hole are a
    pretty friendly bunch too.

   

    
    keep low, moving, and use any avaliable cover (LA school of driving)
    
    					<-john-
    
        Los Angeles traffic, land or sea, there is no difference

    
          I spent most of my time on "Winnie" up in N.H. and the same
    problem that started this note is a common place occurance! It appears
    to me that the larger powerboaters have the same attitude towards
    smaller boats and sailboats that a lot people in cars have towards
    motorcycles
    
        "When driving a ten truck truck you don't need road manners!"
    
          It appeared to me from the original description of the this
    near accident that the grey hull should have either:
    
    
      A) Changed course slightly and passed behind the sailboat (Which
         only requires turning the wheel! Tacking a sailboat takes a
         little more work. Once to tack, once more to return to course)
     
    
      B) Taking his hand off the gas would have slowed him just enough
         for the sailboat to pass ahead of him!
    
    
       
                                              Randy
     Plus the fact that the sailboat
         had the right-of-way)
    
      B0

    A visit to the Coast Guard to report the incident was a decidedly
    undramatic event.          
    
    The reason I invested the hour or so needed was to get Buddy & Pals
    on record as a hazard to safe navigation and, perhaps, to add one more
    complaint to a list the CG might have had for incidents of this
    type. 
    
    The seaman who handled the complaint was both courteous and helpful.
    Understandably, there is little follow-up that they can/will initiate
    other than be aware of the fishing vessel.  Inasmuch as there was
    no damage to either vessel, there is no real need to call either
    party for more information.  In the jargon of the NBA, no harm,
    no foul.  They do like to hear about this sort of thing, he claimed 
    diplomatically.
    
    Ron
    
    

re .21

Very few powerboaters know how to do what you describe in A and B - that is,
pass behind a sailboat. I also sail on Winnipesaukee. I'm usually in a
Catalina 22, but when it's really blowing I often sail a Sunfish. In these
conditions the Sunfish will plane and anyone that has ever sailed a planning
hull boat knows that the way it goes is that you're on a plane, off a plane,
and then back on one. Your speed and heading also varies a lot. 

Enter Mr. Powerboater. I don't know why, but they always want to pass in front
of me. Maybe it's to prove that they are faster than me, I don't know; but I
do know the Sunfish has a stern and it's rarely used. I've missed a lot of
good waves and a lot of good gusts because powerboaters don't know how to pass
a sailboat's stern. 

- Bob

Since we're on the subject of Rules of the Road ..... there is one group 
of sailors who does need to pay more attention to said rules: the 
racers. A few, some, many, most, all (your choice) racing sailors have the
opinion (all too often rudely expressed) that they have the right of way
over all other boats. Not so, both by the Rules of the Road and the
racing rules. I try to stay out of the way of the racers, but there are 
times it is difficult or impossible to do so, especially off Marblehead 
where the racers sometimes outnumber the seagulls. Wasn't racing banned
for a while in Boston Harbor because of so many violations of the Rules
of the Road by the racers? One final comment: I am willing to make every
attempt to stay out of the way of polite people. I react to rudeness by
following the Rules of the Road. 

A Curmudgeon

    re .24
    As someone whose weekend cruising area is the Solent and most weekends
    there are a multiplicty of races occuring I agree with Alan. The
    yacht clubs who organise the races should refuse to accept entries
    from skippers who are found to be regularly in breach of The
    International Collision Regulations.
    
    

    Re .24
    
    Alan, as someone who has sailed on a number of racing boats in a
    couple different classes in the Marblehead area, I'm sorry to say
    I have to agree with you, at least to a pont.  Sorry because so many 
    racing skippers seem to think that winning is more important than 
    simple human civility.  I know skippers who will force a boat with 
    rights off course by sailing right at them, rather than change course 
    or sail to leeward.  I've often thought that the reason they instituted
    the rule about finishing the race with the same crew you started
    with is because otherwise some skippers would throw crew overboard
    if the wind lightened up.
    
    On the other hand, I've noticed that if you're racing and a non-racing
    sailboat is coming up on a collision course, most of the time they'll
    tack away or bear off to give you room if you simply ask nicely.
    I make it a point to wave and shout THANKS whenever someone does
    this for us.  I've also made it a point to not sail with anyone
    who thinks it's OK to be rude simply because they are racing.  I'm
    in it for the enjoyment after all, and I don't enjoy associating
    myself with rude people.
    
    But I think your first choice of adjectives (few, some, many, most,
    all) really applies here.  Most racing sailors I know like to be
    competitive, but know the rules of the road and stick to them. 
    But it seems to be human nature to take a single incident and apply
    it to an entire class of events or people (it's called bigotry,
    and it's just as ugly when applied to cases like this as when applied
    to minorities).  This, I believe, is the reason why some powerboaters
    seem to dislike sailors and vice versa.  And why some non-racers
    seem to dislike racers and vice versa.  And why some catamaran sailors
    seem to dislike monohull sailors and vice versa.  And why some working
    sailors seem to dislike "week-end" sailors and vice versa.
    
    I think that it's important to keep in mind that we're all out there
    for our own reasons, and try to understand that a little politeness
    goes a long way toward engendering good will between the various
    types of people you encounter on the water.  Think about how good
    you felt the last time someone went out of their way to be nice
    to you, perhaps by giving you right of way even though they had
    rights.  And pass it on the the next guy when you get the opportunity.
    We all need to try to go a little out of our way to keep our waterways
    from truly becoming just an extension of our highways.  Otherwise,
    where's the pleasure in even being out there ???
    
    ... Bob

I was on a course last week [which tack, they ask] and have not had a chance to
respond to some of the "shots", cheap or dear, until now.


RE: .15  "A collision can spoil your day!"

>Ever been on a lake with lots of rowing shells (and light winds)?  You, as 
>sail-power, must avoid rowing shells that are moving at maybe 10 times your 
>speed? 

I believe the intent of the rules of the road, in regards to hand propelled vs.
sail vs. power, derives as much from manuevarability, as speed.  A rowing shell
can be very fast, but difficult to turn in a short radius.  A power boat [I'm
not talking QEII, here] is generally more manueuvarble than a sailboat.


RE: .8  "Learn 'em COLD!"

>...remember the general rule about fishing boats having right of way...

If in this context you mean "fishing" to be an adjective, I've never heard of
it.  If you mean it to be a verb, they weren't.


RE: .11 "Suggestion"

>Boats at work have right-of-way over boats at play...my schedule or course,
>etc., while on the water aren't particularly urgent...

We weren't exactly out for a daysail.  Our "mission", which is what the Skipper
kept calling it, was to get the boat, safely, from it's winter yard to its
summer mooring.  In past experience this has usually been either a two day
process, or a well staged push with one very long day on the water.  This
year's trip was of the latter form, with all preparations for getting underway
completed by Saturday night.  Up early to catch the tide we were underway
downriver by 07:15.  With NOAA forecasting increasing winds with possible small
craft warnings later in the day, we did not waste any time pleasure cruising. 
By the time we were in Gloucester Harbor it was clear we were going to have a
long windward leg to Salem.  Somebody will probably say "why didn't you just
take your sails down and fire up the iron oar?"  We did, while on the Parker
and Annisquam Rivers, but keep in mind that the first day on the water is
something that many sailors dream about through many a winter's day, so we were
loathe to douse the rags so long as we were still making adequate progress.


RE: .14 "This I'd have to see."

>    Do I have a problem focusing in on the pertinent details of this
>    episode or am I the only one to notice the fantastic performance
>    of this fishing boat and her skillful captain?

If I were a pedestrian crossing with the light, and a truck came speeding
through the intersection and swerved around me like Mario Andretti, would I be
saying "Wow, what a skillful driver!"?  No.  I'd tell you what I'd be saying,
but the Moderator would have me kissing the gunner's daughter quicker than you
could jibe a cat.


RE: .15 "Here is hope for a non-Zero result!"

>The skipper of the power boat might have turned on his auto-helm and went
>below for a "head visit".  Not prudent on his part, but when nature calls..

I'm not sure where his "head" was, but his mate was leaning on his elbows
watching us through the "unblind" window of the wheelhouse.


RE: .16  "power-sailing can be bear-baiting.."

>    From the relative comfort of my arm-chair this appears to be a case
>    of bear-baiting. I've seen sailors do this to other sailors even,
>    heaven forfend!

Hmmmn, there seems to be a fair amount of Noter-baiting going on here as well,
but I can tell you from long and personal experience that Ron is definitely not
that kind of guy, nor does he feel the need to prove his skill at the helm
through feats of derring-do.  He's an extremely conservative skipper. 
Unfortunately, his limited experience in this area led him to assume that the
powerboat skipper would "do the right thing" and follow the rules-of-the-road.

    
    RE: .24-.26  "Racing"
    
    Case in point.  As we approached the area between Baker's Island
    and Manchester Harbor, we several times sacrificed our course to
    give wide berth to some racers, even though we sometimes had the
    right-of-way.

    
    I wasn't going to respond to this note, but if figured after 27
    one more couldn't hurt...
    
    First off... I agree with you that you had the right of way.  Yes,
    the power boater should have altered course to avoid you...
    
    The thing that gets me is this... (May sound like a flame, but not
    intended to be one).  I sail to have FUN.  The rules of the road
    are great, but you risked your boat (and your lives) over that silly
    rule.  So you had to tack, or luff up, or bear off, or do something
    (anything) to avoid that boat, big deal.  If the "Mission" was to
    get the boat from point A to point B safely, doesn't sound like
    that was really being followed...  I'd better stop now... I can
    feel my BP rising a bit.  
    
    My feeling is that if you have a choice between being right and
    putting your life/boat in SERIOUS jeopardy (more than just being
    out there).  I would hope your urge to "Be right" isn't that strong.
    
    							-Dave C.
    
    :-)
    

    RE: .28  "Another $0.02 added"
    
>    My feeling is that if you have a choice between being right and putting
>    your life/boat in SERIOUS jeopardy (more than just being out there).  I
>    would hope your urge to "Be right" isn't that strong. 

    Why is it that I keep getting the feeling that none of you are
    comprehending the situation.  We were not holding course to prove
    anything, nor to be stubborn.  This guy came up on us so fast that
    by the time we realized he wasn't going to alter course in the
    slightest to avoid us, we didn't have a lot of options.
    
    As you can see from the original description of what happened, we
    did take evasive action.  Our fault is that we hadn't done it sooner.
    The reason for our righteous indignation is not that our "freedom
    of the seas" was somehow impugned, but rather that we were being
    subjected to an unwanted and unavoidable game of "chicken".
    
    

    After half a lifetime of dodging surly shrimpers on Galveston Bay,
    I can sympathize with Ron and Dennis.  The first time it happens,
    you really can't believe they won't alter course...but yes, those
    devils WILL RUN YOU DOWN!  
    
    Why do they hate sailors?  I asked a retired shrimper that once, and
    he explained that basically it was because we were having fun and
    they weren't...and they just naturally resented our presence in
    what they consider their territory.  They also assume that because
    we own sailboats, we're wealthy!
    
    Now altogether, guys...
    
    :^) :^) :^) :^) :^)
    
    Marj
   

re .26:

I agree, the world needs more politeness and civility. As I think I 
said, I try to stay out of the way of boats that are (obviously) racing. 
There are times (like at the end of a long drifting race) when it is far 
from obvious that a boat is racing. How do I tell that the lone boat 
overtaking me from astern is racing? If the boat simply steers to pass 
me upwind, I may or may not realize it is racing. All too often the rude 
gestures or shouts of the crew give me a clue. Sadly, and I wish it
were otherwise, I have been more yelled at than thanked by Marblehead
area racers. Moreover, race committees are not exactly helping matters at
times. Setting a race course across the mouth of Marblehead Harbor in
the late afternoon does make me wonder about the intelligence level of
the committee members. I don't dislike racers in general, just the rude,
arrogant ones (who give everyone a bad name). 

An historical note: In the early days of steamships, many a square 
rigger suffered an untimely end when a steamship captain misjudged the 
speed and/or manuerverability of the square rigger and collided with it.
In many conditions a square rigger was much faster than the early
steamers. It could take half an hour or more to tack a big square
rigger. The next time you are feeling grumpy about working at DEC, read 
VOYAGE by Sterling Hayden, a novel about taking a big iron barque around 
the Horn. A most unpleasant way to earn a living. 

    RE .31
    
    There's one sure way to tell if a boat is racing.  Look for the
    flag on the backstay.  We're all required to wear one during a race
    for just that purpose (i.e. to let people know we're racing).
    Depending on the class of boat, they'll run from A through G.  If
    it's an ocean race it'll usually be an R flag. (Actually, though,
    I see your point that the racing flag isn't terribly visible if
    you're directly in front of the racing boat.)
    
    Personally, I wouldn't hold it against you if you held your course
    or purposely stole the wind from some rude schnook who started flinging
    profanities at you.  Maybe that'll teach'em to be a little more
    polite next time.  And I can tell ya it won't be anybody on WAGS
    that acts that way.
    
    Relative to the race committee, you're right on again.  There've
    been times out there when they have a PHRF race turning the SAME
    mark as a Laser race (or some other smaller class of boats).  Even
    happens that a majority of both fleets gets there at the SAME TIME!
    Can you imagine being on a Laser trucking along in a stiff breeze
    and watching a whole fleet of 35-45 foot boats roaring at your
    broadsides as you approach the mark??  I really don't understand
    it myself sometimes.  Seems to me there are an abundance of marks
    out there, and the only thing I can figure is that the race committee
    doesn't want to have to travel any farther than Tinkers or Marblehead
    bell themselves, so they keep sending us back in close to the harbor.
    Also, there doesn't seem to be any coordination between the three
    Marblehead clubs relative to the race courses they'll be setting
    up on any given week-end for all those races.  And I DO feel for
    anyone who just wants to go out for a day sail on a Saturday or
    Sunday.  After all, we're ALL entitled to use the wind and water.
    
    ... Bob

    RE: .32  "racer's viewpoint"
    
    What is this rule about racers having a flag on the backstay?  Is
    it something new, or is it a local club rule?  Back in the late
    '60s when I raced out of SBYC in Rockport I never carried a flag
    on my backstay.  Of course, my Firefly sloop didn't have a backstay...
    
    

>< Note 861.33 by TOPDOC::AHERN "Dennis the Menace" >
>    
>    What is this rule about racers having a flag on the backstay?  Is
>    it something new, or is it a local club rule?  Back in the late
>    '60s when I raced out of SBYC in Rockport I never carried a flag
>    on my backstay.  Of course, my Firefly sloop didn't have a backstay...

    It's a  fairly  item in the sailing instructions for "offshore" as
    opposed to one design boats. It is *not* in the racing rules. More
    common  in  some  areas  is  code  flag  November  flying from the
    starboard rigging.  It is also not ubiquitous.  

    Even when  racing there have been times when I wasn't sure whether
    another  boat  was  racing. That presents a large problem, because
    the racing rules and Colregs often disagree. It's rather worrisome
    to  be approaching a boat and not know which rules of the road are
    in effect.

--David Wittenberg

    re .33
    
    >  What is this rule about racers having a flag on the backstay?
    
    It's part of the YRUMB (Yacht Racing Union of Mass Bay) racing
    regulations. As I previously noted, I believe it's there to give
    other boats an indication that a particular vessel is racing.  It
    applies to all PHRF races in the Mass Bay area, and I would hazard
    a guess that it also applies in other "congested" areas too, although
    I have only ever raced PHRF in the Mass Bay area, so I can't say
    for sure.
    
    The letter designation of the flag indicates the fleet that the
    boat is racing in (i.e. "A" flag means the boat has a PHRF rating
    of 90 or less, which is "A" fleet.  The higher the letter designation,
    the slower category the boat is racing in.  "R" is sometimes used,
    simply to indicate "racing".)
    
    My own understanding is that ColRegs and Right of Way rules supercede
    racing rules.  I base this on the fact that we have on many occasions
    changed course for non-racing boats when it was not possible to
    hail them and ask them to change course, or when they ignored us
    when we did so.  As previously noted, however, some racing skippers
    will play "chicken" with other non-racing boats.  I strongly disagree
    with this tactic, as I don't feel that a racing boat has any more
    right to the water as anyone else.  Also, if you are a decent tactician
    you should be able to tack or bear off in time to avoid a possibility
    of a collision or confrontation without hurting yourself too much
    (if at al) relative to the rest of the racing fleet.
    
    ... Bob

      After sailing in Rockport for 2 years, I've learned to keep my
    Cat away from everyone in Gloster(sp) harbor (the fisherman, 
    the daysailors, the bastards at the opening trying to rip my sails
    with there killer fishing lures). Unless on the open ocean , I am
    always scanning for problems. We are talking life threatening
    situations on a Cat. I don't need any problems.
    
      I must say the lobster fisherman in Rockport are very considerate
    compared to many, but then, they have been sharing the harbor for
    a long time.
    
    re .24  Alan, I'd agree most sailors stay out of the way during
    races, but ussally they are locals. When someone comes out in the
    middle of 100+ boats bobbing around, chances are they are from 
    someplace else and want to know what is going on (i.e. the same people who
    rubberneck at auto crash sites). Nothing gets me more upset then
    coming off the starting line with 30-35 boats within 8 feet of each
    other going upwind to the first mark when some bozo come motoring
    directly at us. Luckily, most people know better.
                          
    re.32 Bob, bad enough getting different types of rigs to round
    together, I was in a race last year in Narragaset Bay where it was
    a beam reach to the next mark. A fleet of 30 footers were on a
    beam reach in an opposite direction. You should have seen the 
    piloting on that course!!!! Looked like one of the ice skating
    shows with all the boats tounge-and-grooving. 
                                                 
       One thing I have learned racing is to yell loud and early if
    you see trouble. It doesn't have to be sarcastic, just letting
    people know your intentions ussally does the trick.
                                 
    
       john *
    
    *= who thinks commerical fisherman are nothing compared to
    the weekend powerboat fisherman who are brain dead by the time they
    are ready to punk their boat into the water from all the beer they have been
    drinking for breakfast.

re .34:

>>>    Even when  racing there have been times when I wasn't sure whether
>>>    another  boat  was  racing. That presents a large problem, because
>>>    the racing rules and Colregs often disagree. It's rather worrisome
>>>    to  be approaching a boat and not know which rules of the road are
>>>    in effect.

As I recall the racing rules (which I haven't read recently), a racing
yacht MUST obey the Colregs Rules of the Road when encountering a
non-racing yacht (a yacht is assumed to be non-racing unless it is 
definitely known to be racing). Nothing else makes any sense since the 
Colregs are the legal and legally binding Rules of the Road. Moreover, a
racing yacht involved in a collision (regardless of who is at fault) is
disqualified, which does provide some incentive for the, shall I say,
less than courteous racing skipper to obey the rules. 

>< Note 861.37 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >
>                               -< Colregs apply >-
>
>
>As I recall the racing rules (which I haven't read recently), a racing
>yacht MUST obey the Colregs Rules of the Road when encountering a
>non-racing yacht (a yacht is assumed to be non-racing unless it is 
>definitely known to be racing). 

    That's not   in   the  racing  rules.  It  is  however  the  legal
    requirement.  The  problem  is  if  you  see another boat, you had
    better agree on which of you will keep clear, or you can both bear
    off right into each other. In almost all races that include racing
    in the dark, the sailing instructions state a time after which the
    Colregs  apply  instead of the racing rules. So at night you don't
    have  to  decide  whether  that  dark  shape over there is racing.
    During  the  day, you do have to know whether she's racing, as the
    racing rules do apply between boats racing in seperate races.

> Moreover, a
>racing yacht involved in a collision (regardless of who is at fault) is
>disqualified, which does provide some incentive for the, shall I say,
>less than courteous racing skipper to obey the rules. 

    Not true.  Colliding with a non-racing yacht is not a violation of
    the  racing  rules.  It  is  however  slow, so we try to avoid it.
    Sailing  instructions often require racing yachts to stay clear of
    barge, ferry, or other large boat traffic, but I am unaware of any
    yacht  being  disqualified for colliding with a non-racing boat of
    similar  size.  There  would  of  course  be legal consequences of
    colliding with another vessel.

    Further, the  right of way yacht in a collision between two racing
    yachts  is  only disqualified if there was serious damage, and she
    made no attempt to avoid the collision. This rule will probably be
    changed in the 1989 rules to increase the onus on the right of way
    yacht,  but  it  will  still be possible to be in minor collisions
    where  only  one  boat  is disqualified. Also if the burdened boat
    made  a  sudden course change which the right of way boat couldn't
    reasonably be expected to avoid, the right of way boat will not be
    disqualified.

    In fact,  if  there is a collision which disables the right of way
    yacht,  (whether  with  another racing yacht, or some other boat),
    and  the  right of way yacht could not reasonably have avoided the
    collision,  she  will be entitiled to such arrangement as the race
    committee deems equitable (near the end of the race, her poisition
    at  the  time,  earlier  in  the race her average position for the
    series are the typical arrangements.)

--David  Wittenberg

    ps. To  give an idea of my experience, I've studied every revision
    of  the  racing  rules  since the 1968 rules (when I was 12). I've
    raced as watch captain on the Vineyard and Block Island races, and
    tactician  and  navigator on shorter races as well as racing on my
    college  team  for  three  years and serving on protest committees
    more times than I care to count.

re .38:

I bow to your far greater knowledge and experience. However ......

My little red rule book, entitled '1981-84 International Yacht Racing 
Rules', published by the USYRU, has the following statement on page 32 
just before Rule 31:

  The rules of Part IV do not apply in any way to a vessel which is 
  neither intending to RACE nor RACING [emphasis in original]; such 
  vessel shall be treated in accordance with the International Regulations 
  for Preventing Collisions at Sea .....

Maybe not strictly speaking a rule, but it is right there in the USYRU 
rule book. 

You're quite right, a racing yacht colliding with a non-racing yacht is 
not disqualified (says he with a smile, I keep a lawyer stowed in the 
bilge). 

    Just a couple of observations here...
    
    If you're not racing, how can you reasonably be expected to know
    the racing rules?  Why should you even care what they say?  Most
    sailors (hopefully) DO know the ColRegs, or are at least up on the
    port-starboard rule.  As has been pointed out MANY times earlier
    on in this entry, it's always best (whether racing or not) to assume
    that the guy coming up on a collision course isn't a nautical lawyer,
    and take appropriate action.  This may mean bearing off just enough
    to take the stern of an approaching vessel by a few inches, but
    the onus is STILL on the "burdened" vessel, NOT the vessel with
    right of way.
    
    If you're not racing, you're not worried about who's getting
    disqualified and who's not.  You're not interested in protest
    committees, you may not even LIKE these racing types out here acting
    like they own the ocean.
    
    So if you ARE racing, you'd better think about these things before
    coming up on a vessel with the intention of playing "chicken" to
    try to force the other guy off course.  That's why it's important
    for the crew to keep their eyes open for approaching boats, and
    even more important to ASK non-racers to change course if they have
    rights, rather than scream and swear at them for "stealing your
    air" or forcing you to change course.
    
    My advice ... stay clear if you know the boat's racing.  In Marblehead
    that's usually very obvious.  First, because of the racing flag,
    second, because usually ANY group of boats on the same course that
    are rather closely bunched together ARE racing, and third, because
    most racing boats these days have either Kevlar (tan and white)
    or Spectra (blue and white) sails.  And they don't pay those kind
    of $$$ for sails that deteriorate faster than dacron just to go
    out cruising.
    
    HOWEVER ... if Joe Schnook comes roaring up on a port tack and starts
    screaming and swearing at you, or comes RIGHT AT your broadsides
    trying to force you off course, I know what I'd do.  First, I'd
    try to pass to windward or tack right on TOP of the S.O.B.  If that
    wasn't possible, I'd tack right in FRONT of him, make him eat your
    stern (actually he'll bear off just enough to pass to windward.
    Hitting other boats, as previously noted, makes one go incredibly
    SLOW).  And barring that, I'd settle for that favorite of nautical
    last resorts, bombard the #$%^& with water balloons (especially
    in the Marblehead area it's best to keep a ready supply for those
    people who forget that civilization extends beyond shore).
    
    :^)  :^)
    
    ... Bob

Re: .39

We're in agreement here.

Re: .40

    If you do distance races, it's often hard to know who's racing, as
    the  boats  aren't  bunched.  Two hours before finishing the Block
    Island  race this year we were playing the Connecticut shore while
    others  were  playing  the  Long  Island  shore  5  miles away. We
    finished within 40 seconds of one of them.

Re: last several

    I would  be  greatly  amused to see a law suit from an incident in
    which  two  racing boats collided in a situation where the Colregs
    and  racing  rules differ on which is the burdened vessel. I'm not
    sure  which would  be wierder:  the case where each thought he had
    right  of  way and held his course, or the case where each thought
    he  was burdened and their avoidance maneuvers casued a collision.
    I  could  imagine  this  happening if the two boats were racing in
    different  regattas,  one  of which required a racing flag and the
    other of which didn't.

    Incidentally, it's  interesting  how polite and helpful commercial
    traffic  is  if  you  hail  them  on  channel  13 to make sure you
    understand their intentions before you get too close. We hail tugs
    routinely, and they always appreciate it. (Of course we stay clear
    of them, but it's easier if we know where they're going.)

--David Wittenberg

    re .38
    
    Dave, you've marked yourself.  I can see it now,
    a new note called, "The Protest Room."  You'll
    be chairman of the committee.  Alan will be secretary.
    Could be real entertaining, especially if representatives
    from both sides happen to be in this conference!
    
      "What are you talking about, 'starboard'?!  You
       tacked right in front of us, you flaming sheet head!"
    
    Stand by to jibe,
    Dean

>< Note 861.42 by MANTIS::FACHON >
>                -< Coming soon to VDTs in your neighborhood... >-
>
>    Dave, you've marked yourself.  I can see it now,
>    a new note called, "The Protest Room."  You'll
>    be chairman of the committee.  Alan will be secretary.
>    Could be real entertaining, especially if representatives
>    from both sides happen to be in this conference!

    I am  interested  in  the  racing rules, and would be delighted to
    discuss  them here. If anyone has any questions, please post them,
    and  I  (and  probably several others) will be delighted to answer
    them.  In fact, I'll start that new note now.

--David Wittenberg

    Re .39
    
    Keeping a lawyer in the bilge.  What a wonderful idea, Alan.  How
    well do they absorb diesel fuel and how often do you have to replace
    them?

    Best to use fresh graduates in the bilge -- they
    still have plenty of grease soaking capacity and should last a 
    season.  Depending on the quality of fuel you burn, used
    lawyers may be suitable for torte.  Read the label.
    
    ;)

    I'd like to share a little ditty as best I can recall it. I think
    it sums up quite well much of what has been said in this note.
    
             Here lies the body of Richard T. Strong.
    
             He was right, absolutely right as he sailed along.
    
             However, he is just as dead as if he were wrong.

	My sympathies to the originator..... You done right!

	I race a Daysailor every sunday morning on Quinsig. I've often
	wished for a bazooka as standard equipment! Some power boaters
	consider "might=right" as the only rule, but some are just the
	opposite and will even stop dead in the water to let you go by!

	So I yell "&$^%*#(@ and so's your mother" at the former;
	stand, tip my hat, and say "Thank you" to the later.


	Flags on the backstay???? I have trouble keeping tell-tales
	on the stays.

	;-} gjm