Conference unifix::sailing

Good "offshore boats"? [by offshore I assume you mean +100 miles]
Hinckley, Sabre, J and Bristol are a few names that come to mind. There
are (of course) hundreds of others, both "name boats" and custom designs
(Ted Hood, et al) that are world class yachts. I own a Catalina 34 (my second
Catalina, fourth boat). Nice boat. We love it. Handles great. BUT, I DON'T
consider it an "offshore boat". Here's the key point. Sailing from Portsmouth
(NH) to Provincetown entails sailing offshore in the sense that we are not
sailing *next* to the shore. But, that is NOT sailing "offshore".
i.e. the fun stuff: 12-20ft seas, 40knt winds, 1000ft tankers, storms, 24hrs
of sailing followed by 24hrs of sailing, 'floating-nameless-objects', etc...   
"What type of construction is required for offshore usage?" GOOD CONSTRUCTION!
DAMNED GOOD CONSTRUCTION! You're betting your life on it. I'm not being
sarcastic, but, it's like the old "if you have to ask how much it costs,
you can't afford it". If you ask "what should I look for" (in terms
of offshore safety), [remember] you can't afford to be wrong.

Not that I have the answers (god knows I don't!). But I do have a suggestion.
Charter! As much and as often as you can afford. And I'm sure you'll find
a boat you feel confident in. (FYI: Hinckley Sou'wester 42 off-season charter
in BVI is about $350/day)

Gary H...

    
    Just as an aside, the latest issue of Cruising World has an article
    on a Florida native who is circumnavigating on a "modified" Catalina
    27. He's been out 2-3 years and has just crossed the Indian Ocean.
    There's a list of some of the modifications and he describes some
    of the problems he ran into. Makes for some interesting reading.
    Particularly on things NOT to do on the water (like climb the mast
    to free a halyard without benefit of harness or boatswains chair!!)
    
    			-charlie

    
    
    
    I read the same article, and what first came to mind was, how old
    was the boat, because the newer production boats at least O'DAY
    are built it seems with less thickness in the hull and deck compared
    to the older models. Other articles on blue water boats state how
    phyical it is to sail (sea-motion, stability), the less tiring it
    is to sail the safer the crew will be in a storm. 

    some background information:
    
    Currently I live aboard a 37' Islander sloop.  I have sailed
    extensively in the Channel Islands off the California coast.  To
    the south I have gone as far as Ensenada, Mexico (which took me
    offshore, but I consider this coastal cruising).  I enjoy sailing
    the Islander, she has been very good to me, but my future plans
    require a trans-oceanic vessel.  Currently in my quest to find the
    bluewater vessel of my (functional) dreams I am on what seems to
    be every mailing list in the country, being contacted by what seems
    to be every brokerage in the world, and watching the used market
    through any magazine or contact I can find.  Top of the list to
    date is a Bruce Farr design 47' cutter (still on the boards) for
    $250,000.  All production boats have been put on hold until I can
    figure out which ones fit into my bluewater picture.  
    
                                                  John Papa
    

    If the dollar recovers and the pound Sterling declines try writing
    to A H Moody & Son at Swanick Southampton UK. They build production
    boats up to 42 feet and craft to order of any size. 
    They claim to have built many boats for circum navigation. 
    They have been in the business for over one hundred years.......  
    Another good British yard is Sadlers in Poole.
    
    Pete who has a small Moody and dreams of circumnavigating.                                                          
    

    Offshore:
    
    No danger to be on a leeshore,no danger of grounding,no danger of very
    very turbulent seas.Most boats get lost near a coast.
    My requirements: Roomy boat for provisions,spare parts,water,diesel
    (diesel=ampere/hours).Seakindly behavier.
    
    Inshore: 
    
    Danger to be on a leeshore,danger of grounding,fog,traffic,collision
    etc.
    
    I have found my offshore vessel: Fisher 30 (motorsailor)
    Roomy,comfortable with the enclosed wheelhouse,heavy (you can load 
    tons of equipment in it) and it even sails if there is a good wind.
    (minimum 12 kn of wind).But wind is normaly strong anyway offshore.
    
    Peter

    Friends of ours in the Catalina 30 association took their boat (after
    modifications) to Bermuda the summer before last. They hit a few
    gales, but nothing unexpected.  I also continue to read about a
    virtual freeway of production sailboats traveling from San Fran
    to Hawaii.  Of course, they time their voyages properly so that
    the odds are with them.  The point is that unless the Southern Ocean
    is along your route, or you hit the ultimate storm, many offshore
    voyages could and have been made in vessels with design specs and
    price tags considerably under Hinkleys.  If we waited until we could
    afford Hinkleys, we'd never leave the bay.  Yet we drive Interstate
    495 daily in Ford Escorts because we can't afford a big Mercedes.

    re .2 .3 .7  One consideration of mine should be the modification
    of existing production boats.  What type of modifications are required
    for offshore usage?  Could .2 or .3 respond with the name of the
    feature in Cruising World?   ... THANKS!
    
    re .5  Do you know anything about the Oyster yachts?  Are they built
    for offshore usage?     ... THANKS!
    
    re .6  Bluewater; the darker blue, the better!  Could you pass on
    remarks in reference to any vessel features that have aided you in your
    offshore usage?    ... THANKS
                                                       
    
    I'm about one year and a half ahead of my scheduled purchase and
    prepare date. I highly value all the input on this subject to date.
    
                  ... THANKS

re .7:

Any boat can be sailed offshore. Many boats cannot be sailed offshore
safely. Sailing a Catalina (or whatever) to Bermuda does not make a
Catalina (or whatever) safe offshore. When you are offshore, you must
assume that you are long way (time and distance) from help. The boat
must be able to survive the weather that is encountered -- on the
Bermuda passage in summer that is everything from calm to a full storm
in the Gulf Stream -- as well as other hazards. 

Many people for many reasons sail offshore in boats that should not be
sailed offshore. Clearly, cost is one of them. Many notes ago I wrote
about a way of looking at risk. Each of us looks at risk differently.
You feel safe doing something I may deem unacceptably risky. If you feel
comfortable about the risk involved in taking a Catalina offshore, then
do it. By the way, the more I sail, the more risk adverse I become,
because I have experienced bad weather and know more about the dangers. 
My first planned offshore passage was a trip from Marblehead to Maine 
aboard a C&C 26 -- no liferaft. I wouldn't do it again. 

Enough.

There is more to an offshore boat that strong construction. Design is 
extremely important also. Some design characteristics are more suitable 
for open ocean sailing than others. If you haven't read it, let me urge 
you to read C A Marchaj's "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor". It is a 
very interesting, very sobering discussion of many of the design 
characteristics that contribute to safety and comfort offshore. For 
example, fast is fun is a widespread gospel these days. And fast implies 
(usually) light. Marchaj shows that the accelerations (due to boat 
motion) experienced aboard a light boat are much higher than those
aboard a heavy boat. Seasickness becomes more likely as acceleration
increases. Past a certain acceleration, everyone gets seasick. It has 
also been shown that wide beam and light displacement considerably
increase the probability of capsizing. 

Beyond hull and keel design, there are many other design details that 
are important. My (limited) experience is that very few if any production 
boats are really ready to go offshore. They all need some changes and
improvements. The list is endless, but includes improved ventilation,
self-steering, berth lee cloths, safety harness jacklines and attachment
points, storm shutters for the ports and hatches, etc. Our return trip 
from Bermuda last summer would have been more pleasant if we'd had a 
spray hood over the coachroof hatch. Without the spray hood, we had to 
keep the hatch closed going to windward in very hot weather. Ugh. A 
small example. Our head has a nice, heavy teak door. Fine in calm 
weather, a terrible hazard to one's hands in rough weather. The door is 
going to be replaced by a curtain before the next offshore trip. One 
thing that continually amazes me in looking at boat interiors is the 
lack of good sea berths. V-berths are unusable in rough weather -- 
instant seasickness. Many aft quarterberths lack ventilation and are 
hard to get into and out of. Many aft cabins are so huge that there 
would be no way to stay on the bed (the sleeping surface is too large to 
call a berth). Many settees are not parallel with the boat's centerline 
-- when the boat heels, one end of the sleeping body is higher than the 
other, which is quite uncomfortable. Our boat has two good sea berths, 
which meant that on our Bermuda trip we shared sleeping on the cabin 
sole during rough weather. (Sleeping on a thick berth cushion on the 
sole was not pleasant -- you bounced two or three times every wave.
Sleeping on the teak sole was not much better.) 

    RE: .8
    
    I have 2 direct aquaintences with Oyster yachts.  Both are the
    generation just before the current Oyster production boats.  Both
    are extremely competent offshore boats (one is 36' the other is
    39').   They are full keel, quite heavy and have well protected
    cockpits (the 39' has a fixed windshield in addition to an offshore
    dodger).
    
    Their only drawback is all that weight makes them slow in comparison
    to other boats on the bay (Narranganset Bay) unless the breeze freshens
    to over 20 kts.

    Walt

    regarding .7 - Yes, I agree that there comes a time when it's time
    to go offshore - you can't spent your life waiting till you can
    afford the ultimate sailing vessel.  Still, if my Ford Escort breaks
    down I can  more than likely walk away and get help.  If my boat
    is inoperable for what ever reason while offshore, I can't just
    walk away!! 
    
    regarding .9 - Your points about berths that are comfortable while
    underway are very important and can't be stressed enough.  I've
    spent many sleepless nights on boats that were not fitted with
    comfortable sleeping quarters.  After a few days of this, getting
    up for the 3am watch isn't to easy!!!
    
    I haven't seen any suggestions about Westsail as an offshore boat.
    Any opinions?  I felt very comfortable while sailing to the Azores
    ona Westsail 32.  Also, what about the Paccific Seacraft?  I've
    been on the Dana 24' and the Orion 27' (?) but haven't done any
    sailing on either one.
                

    Oyster Yachts are built in East Anglia in the UK. They are extremely
    seaworthy and the current designs are considered to be quite quick.
    They start at 37 feet and and I think go to 60 feet or so. I did
    a course in one a few years ago and we were in mid channel
    (English...)in wind of 50knts or so the craft was ,I believe the
    expression is, sea kindly. They are heavy but I have yet to see a
    poor report on them in any magazine and they certainly are well
    represented in some of the longer distance races. They only have
    one draw back.......They cost a great deal of money.
    
    
    Pete_who _is _still_dreaming.
     

    Oyster Yachts have two distinct ranges of yachts, their racers
    have a very good record, including several Admirals Cup selections
    (StormBird, Black Top ...) although they are now a bit heavy, and
    their cruisers, which have a very good reputation although they
    a quite pricey ( even in the UK ). The latest generation are
    pretty quick, and are built to order with various rig, Deckhouse
    and Interior designs available.
    
    Clare Francis, the former racing skipper has one , as does Brian
    Saffery-Cooper, former British Admirals Cup skipper and champion
    racing Helmsman. 
    

Two vessels are reported overdue on the NOAA weather forecast this 
morning:

   A 20 foot (!) sloop with two crew on a passage from Bermuda to 
   Martha's Vineyard

   A 62 foot ketch with two crew (!) on a passage from St Thomas to 
   New Jersey

    
    re .2 .3   I caught up with my mail (somewhat hard for a liveaboard)
    and have found the feature that was referenced.
                         
    re .9  Your points are well taken, key items in the evaluation of
    a vessel for offshore usage should be; design intent, method of
    construction, deck layout, safety features, and interior functionality.
    I just joined the dolphin book club, so the book you mentioned along
    with others related to the subject are on the way.
    
    re .10 .12 .13   I saw an Oyster Lightwave 48 at the Newport boat
    show (thats Newport, Ca.)                         
    
    Thanks again for the input, I am still interested in any comments
    regarding features that are of a benifit to an offshore vessel.

    The Safety at Sea Seminar held in New London last month offered
    a lot of valuable information about just that, safety at sea.  Many
    very technical papers were presented on capsize, expecially capsize
    in breaking waves.  What really sticks out in my mind is that in
    all the testing done (by the presenters, and there were numerous
    presenters) a breaking wave hitting a boat broadside will capsize
    it and hull design and beam had little to do what that fact.  Length,
    however, did.  Boats upwards of 60 or so feet were less prone to
    capsize.  The ability of a boat to return from a turtled position
    to the desired upright position is an important consideration. 
    Additional topics covered drogues.  The testing seemed a bit
    unscientific compared to the reports on capsize but it seemed that
    having an "adequate" drogue was important.  A new drogue made up
    of a hundred or so little cones attached to a line seemed to work
    very well in the tests done.  Another paper presented during the
    Coast Guard portion of the seminar (2.5 days) used the Galerider.
    I plan to get a galerider and try it out this summer.
    You might want to contact your local USYRU and try to get the 
    proceedings of these seminars, the information is quite valuable.  
    
    One of the topics in the seminar considered human factors of boat
    design.  The concern was crew fatigue as well as safety.  In preparing
    my boat for solo sailing I'm concentrating on modifications to reduce
    fatigue and exertion.  Having to hang on to keep from sliding off
    a seat in a cockpit that is too wide is exhausting over time.  I
    sailed on a CS 36 once and couldn't touch the opposite seat, I was
    real tired after 8 hours of hanging on the the lifelines.  
    
    I recommend Steve Dashew's book Blue Water Sailing (or is it cruising).
    He has lots to say on the subject of sailing offshore.
    
    I am in complete agreement with .9 regarding berths.  The most
    comfortable offshore vessel I've been on was a Hughes 38, Sparkman
    and Stevens design (you might want to consider some of their boats,
    they seem to know how to build for offshore sailing).  This boat
    has two pilot berths (it had settees on both sides of the main cabin
    with pilot berths above each).  Each had a tall lee board and once
    in these snug little nooks it was close to impossible to become
    dislodged.  I've never slept better underway.
    
    I keep dreaming about an offshore boat and keep coming back to steel.
    I've seen lots of junk out there and wonder just how much it would
    take to hole my balsa cored hull.  This issue of Sail magazine
    introduces a cat ketch with foam in the masts as well as in the
    hull to make her "unsinkable (?)" .  It also has a water tight bulkhead
    at the bow.  It seems like an interesting boat that I may look into
    for an upgrade from my current Freedom 32 (I can't remember the
    name of the boat designer and it was only a 36).
    
    You seem to be on the right track asking questions, let us know
    what you decide and why, I'd be interested in how you go about making
    your decision.  

    
    Pam

    
           Earlier in the conferance there was a chart put up by someone
    that showed quality vs. resale and cruise vs. racing value of most
    major brands of sailboats. I have not been able to find it, could
    someone please point it out?
    
                                        Randy

    RE .1
    
    > Good "offshore boats"? [by offshore I assume you mean +100 miles]
    > Hinckley, Sabre, J and Bristol are a few names that come to mind.
    
    I would NOT recommend J as a good offshore boat.  I've been sailing
    in a J/36 for the last few years.  While it's a very well-built
    boat, and seaworthy to a point, I wouldn't want to be caught 100
    miles offshore in a good squall in one.  It's great for harbor racing,
    even for coastal sailing.  But it's too lightweight to weather high
    winds and big seas like you get 100 miles offshore.
    
    I've seen the new cruising designs J came out with last year (J/28
    and J/40) though I haven't sailed on one yet.  They look a lot more
    like something you'd want to spend a lot of time on, perhaps these
    are better for offshore.  But my impression is that they are still
    lightweight compared to a Hinckley, Sabre, or Bristol.
    
    ... Bob

    Sabre offshore?  I  wouldn't  do  it. They seem like nice boats to
    putter around in, and rather luxurious, but the one I sailed on (a
    34)  didn't  have  reasonable  sea berths, and I only got slightly
    paranoid  about  navigating  when  I came below to find the galley
    cover  (which weighs about 15 lbs.) lying in the nav station which
    it  crashed into a minute after I came on deck to help with a sail
    change.

    You might be able to fix one up to sail offshore, but I don't know
    how  much effort it would take. The standard layout didn't impress
    me.

--David Wittenberg

    re .8
    
    what I rate as important in a offshore boat:
    
    Rigg,rudder construction, etc.
    
    I had to add a second forestay (wire) for stormjib.
    I had to add a second batterie with a switch.This was a mistake.Now
    both batteries are of the same age and will die at the same time.
    The next time I'm going to add a dry battery as standby and will fill
    in the acid only during emergencies.
    
    Rigging:Normal production boats have minimum sized rigging.I have as
    standard oversize wire/toggels, for- and aftshrouds,doubble backstays.
    I have not changed anything on my rigg.
    Sails:My boat was delivered for $300 extra with stronger sails.I have 3
    reefpoints in my mainsail.I installed rollerreefing genoa.I have a
    trysail.
    Anchor:The boat was delivered with a 25 lb SQR and 60 feet of 5/16 
    chain.I added a 45 lb SQR and additional 200 feet of chain and as
    3. anchor 25 lb danforth.
    I have no leecloths.In bad weather we prefere to sleep on the floor.
    As long as we go only 4-6 weeks a year sailing ,i'm not going to
    install leecloth.
    I had to modify all locks on all doors to make them secure.
    
    Conclusion:
    
    Riggs,sails,lockers with doors,ability to stow anchorchain in bilge,
    steering backup (wheel and tiller),heavy duty rudder and good deck/hull
    connection was delivered from the yard as standard and is in most 
    standard production boats missing.
    
    Good rigg/sails and the rudder is very important for a secure offshore
    passage and is difficult/expensiv to change .
    Most people look only at the body of a sailing vessel.But bodys very
    seldom break but rudder/mast do often.
    
    Peter

re -.1 rudders:

Spade rudders are very hard to build strong enough for offshore. A 
rudder/skeg is much stronger, especially when the skeg is the same 
length as the rudder. Then the lower rudder bearing is at the bottom of 
the rudder.

re -.1 batteries:

The life of a battery is depends on how often it is cycled and how deep 
the discharge is on each cycle. More than half discharging a battery 
shortens its life significantly. Adding acid to a battery is a little
difficult and a little hazardous at best. I wouldn't want to do it in an
emergency. It is unlikely that both batteries will fail simultaneously,
so that I would recommend using each on alternate days. That way you'll
know both are good and they should last twice as long as a single
battery. 

    Re: .20
    
    The discussion about what constitutes an adequate offshore boat
    will go on forever. However, I'm really curious about these two
    fatal flaws in the Sabre 34. ;^)
    
    Why wasn't the galley cover stowed in it's holder behind the stove?
    
    and
    
    What exactly was wrong with the berths? They are tapered, parallel
    to the centerline, and reasonably well padded. Were they too wide,
    too narrow, too short, or possibly missing lee cloths?
    
    John_R

    
    an update ... 
    	I joined the dolphin book club to aquire reference material.
        Alan, your comments regarding "Seaworthiness - the forgotten
    	factor" started me in a good direction.  This helped clarified 
    	design attributes and their effect on offshore performance.
   	"The Circumnavigators Handbook" picks up her with ideas influnced
    	by offshore experience.
    
    				thanks,
    					Left Coast John
    

    For me, offshore means a basic hull and rig able to handle the worst.
    These are also the areas least practically upgraded.  In my view,
    nearly all even good offshore capable boats need lots of small
    improvements, before I'd consider a long passage.
    
    I've owned two boats a Mariner (USA) 36 and an Oyster 435, both
    with excellent hulls, bulkhead attachments and oversize rigs.  I
    had no reluctance to go for moderate offshore work.  Both needed
    improvements for storm jib rigging, trysails, etc.  Before I'd head
    for Tahiti however, I'd go through the interiors fastening everything
    to stay in place in a knockdown or further.  I have yet to see a
    production boat with this done.
    
    I'd strongly second the recommendations earlier for Oysters (used
    46's are superb world cruisers), and add Mariners (ONLY the USA brand!)
    which include a few 47's, and all of the Valiants.  Based on first
    hand knowledge stay away from Irwin and Morgan as both can't seem
    to keep the bulkheads bonded to the hull in heavy weather.
    
    I happened to glance at Don Street's "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" (vol
    1) the other day and once again was impressed by his advice about
    proper setup for an offshore boat.  Jim Skoog's "Cruising in Comfort"
    is another must read.
    
    Have fun with your search!
     

    I am currently reading C A Marchaj's "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten
    Factor". This book goes into detail discussion of design
    characteristics that contribute to or to the determent of safety
    and comfort offshore. The author does not have any thing nice to
    say about boats designed to the IOR. The author uses math (trig
    and vector operations, nothing too complicated) to support
    his arguments... this book would make a good class room text book.

    
    George

    I spent 10 years living on a 50 feet gaff ketch which took 7 more
    years to built (14,000 hours!!) it means that during all that time
    at least 17 years I have been ...deeply involved in sailing boats
    I have spent countless hours talking to others boat builders both
    proffesional and unprof. Let me try to share some of the input I
    got from all those years.
       Material : boat can be built in 
    	Wood, various "plactics" (glass epoxy, glass polystyrene...)
    metal (steel, aluminium), ferro-cement (my Kotick was in ferro-cement)
      glass-plastic have a tendency to what we call the "plastic pocks"
    which is water going into the plastic and causing delamination of
    the glass layers this phenomena is caused by osmosis and all plastic
    boats can have that problem I have seen Swan, Tyler, Dufour, Camper
    & Nicholson all from good maker have this .. anoying problem.
      metal the metal are strong but they rust with a steel boat you
    will start painting one side as soon as you will finished the previous
    one, aluminium is very sensitive to chimical attack from paints
    (with copper inside) all metal are very sensitive to electrolyse
    which can be rapidly a disaster if one of the electric appliance
    is leaking current to the sea.
     ferro-cement is very rugged maintenance can be reduce at a minimum
    but this material is normaly used on large heavy boat as an example
    Kotick weighted 33,000 kgs!!!
     THE BEST MATERIAL to my mind is ...good old wood specially now
    with all the products which can be used to protect it; one 50 feet
    ketch was built in 1906 in UK by FITH & SON in oak on oak they have
    used oak which had laid 60 years in salt water then dried for another
    60 years hull as been covered with coal tar then with copper shield!!!!
    80 years after she is still a new boat.. but not going into these
    extreme if you can find a wood-molded (may be molded-wood!!! my
    english is too poor to solve that problem) boat you will have something
    which will last your entire life.
    THE DESIGN: Personnaly I am in favor of old designs, in Boston you
    are lucky to have some of the best designs ever built. One of the
    adventage of old designs is that they are the result of countless
    day to the sea not for pleasure but for work. But never forget that
    the perfect design does not exist; the original design of Kotick
    was from COLIN ARCHER a famous norwegian designer who inventd the
    double ended hull in 1850-9x. The design was made for the North
    sea (which is very short and very..very rought) the purpose was
    to have rescue boats and they worked very well (rescuing under sails
    by force 11/12!!!!!); because Kotick was supposed to be a yacht
    and to sail in the atlantic the modern designer changed a little
    bit the shape to make her faster (!!!) he removed a bit of the stem
    volume, the result was great... in Atlantic never a drop of water
    on the deck even once in a force 10 gale; but it wetted the deck
    in the meditheranee which is a short sea also .
     I could speak forever of the matter just one piece of advise when
    you choose a boat :
    	A GOOD BOAT IS ALWAYS BEAUTIFULL
    	A BEAUTIFULL BOAT IS NOT ALWAYS GOOD
    if you want to see good seaworthy boat the one you could round the
    world with go in the Maine and look at the old gaffer you will see
    what is a good boat.
     I may have bother you with Kotick but tears are still in my eyes
    as I to sell my best friend six months ago.
    Sadly yours.
    jacques

>          metal the metal are strong but they rust with a steel boat you
>    will start painting one side as soon as you will finished the previous
>    one, aluminum is very sensitive to chemical attack from paints
>    (with copper inside) all metal are very sensitive to electrolyze
>    which can be rapidly a disaster if one of the electric appliance
>    is leaking current to the sea.

    I have to take issue with this. With Zinc oxide hot spray the rust
    factor on Steel boat dramatically reduced. The upkeep is less than
    wood more than Fiberglas. Steel will last just as long if maintained.
    
    

    You are right! I would not even consider going on a steel boat without
    zinc protection but still!!! I have seen boat which had hot zinc
    protection made after a complete sand blasting (and in this case
    zinc has to be projected within two hours after the sand blasting
    is finished to make sure that the steel did'nt start rusting) and
    they had rust dots. One of the worst problem is ... inside the boat
    it is almost impossible to properly sand a protect under the framework
    and there is always places were rust start and grow. one way to
    minimise it is the use of prezinked steel sheets but the zinc coating
    is badly affected by the soldering.
     You know there is a big difference in how you use the boat and
    how much money you can spend on her, part of my experience is from
    peoples whith little cash, and a box of "Dox-anode" (a eavy charged
    zinc paint) is difficult to afford; so I totally agree I may be
    biased by these experiences. I do not know if you heard about Bernard
    Moitessier (He made the first around the world solitary race) I have
    read all his books and how he built is JOSUA, zinc coated inside
    and outside by one of the best shipyard in France and few years
    after JOSUA could be seen in PAPEETEE all rusty. I also have a five
    years experience in the french navy and all the navy are proffesional
    in this area and they have the same problems.
     The only material which will last forever is "cupro-nickel" one
    boat has been built in the US with this material, but then i do
    not even dream how much it cost.
    Best regards
    jacques

    When you mentioned cupro-nickel, I assume you mean the material
    which we in the states call Monel, an alloy of copper, zinc and
    nickel.  If so, you are correct that it is without a doubt the most
    perfect material I can think of for the hull of a boat (cost not
    considered).  Monel is does not rust or corrode, is non-magnetic,
    is practically impervious to electrolysis and is VERY strong.  It 
    also is quite easy to shape, and welds easily.  It is, however, hell
    on cutting tools.  We have built a mast step and several floors out of 
    1/4" and 3/8" monel plate (respectively) and I can't think of any metal
    which is as well suited for marine applications.  Monel is expensive
    though.  In the quantities we were buying, Monel plate costs $6.05
    per pound or about $36 per square foot for 1/4" plate.
    
    Assuming that you were building a 45' boat with a 14' beam and 7'
    draft, the total surface area of your hull would be in the range
    of about 1200 square feet.  Total poundage of monel would (assuming
    3/16" skin in most places and a box-framed backbone, tube type frames
    and 3/8" bulkheads) would probably come in around 14,400 pounds. 
    At $6.00 per pound the hull material would cost about $86,000.00
    
    For someone with plenty of money, this might well be a reasonable
    investment.  The finished boat would be very strong and very low
    maintenance.  It would hold paint well, be very resistant to dents
    and dings, would hold up about as well as steel if grounded on a
    reef, and would never deteriorate.                           

    some saving may be considered too, gold plating is not an absolute
    must with material !!  :-)
    jacques                          

    PLEASE SE TOPIC #914.0  
    
    I WAS ABOARD MY SAILBOAT AT COBO ON THE EVENING OF DEC 8, 1982 WHEN
    A WIND SHIFT AND STROM CAME THRU AND DESTROYED 26 CRUISING SAIL
    BOATS. BERNARD MOTESSIER'S "JOSUA" WAS THE FIRST BOAT TO BE BLOWN
    ASHORE.  IT WAS UNBEIEVABLE TO SE HOW BADLY DAMAGED THE BOAT WAS
    BUT UNLIKE THE WOOD AND FIBERGLASS BOATS WHOSE HULS WERE COMPLETELY
    DESTROYED "JOSUA'S" HULL WAS INTACT.  MOTESSIER GAVE UP EFFORTS
    TO SALVAGE "JASUA" AND GAVE HER TO TWO GUYS WHO WERE CREWING DOWN
    THERE.  WHEN I RETURNED FROM MAINLAND MEXICO A FEW MONTHS LATER
    IT WAS NICE TO SEE "JASUA" REFLOATED AND UNDER REPAIR.
    
    EVEN THOUGH I HAVE A FIBERGLASS BOAT, I WOULD OPT FOR STEEL, HEAVY
    DISPLACEMENT, MODIFIED (CUT AWAY) FULL KEEL AND CUTTER RIGGED.
    
    CRUISING THE SOUTH PACIFIC I SAW ALL SORTS, SIZES AND SHAPES OF
    BOATS OUT THERE.
    
    COST WILL BE ON OF THE BIGGEST FACTORS.
    
    BUT WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WANT TO DO??????

    it's been a year, but I've regained access to this notes file.
    
    I have been exposed to a few things, since I last referenced this
    discussion, which has changed my views towards offshore transit
    completely.  Most recently, I have been appointed to a delivery
    crew position aboard Aikane X-5(a 64 ft. ocean racing catamaran).
    The experience has enlightened me to the world of multihulls.
    
    				please reference note 1279,
    					John Papa

    
    Welcome back John, I have enjoyed the discussions started in note
    1279..
    
    `Charlie'
    

    I just read a book called "Sea Story", a (pretty hokey) novel about
    a made-up around-the-world sailboat race.  The book is a fun read if
    you're into novels...
    
    Anyway, part of this goes on in the ocean close to Antarctica, and
    there is discussion about giant waves--maybe 55' high.  They do a lot
    of capsizing and "free-falling", etc., which makes good dramatics, but
    brings up the following question.  Note that I am almost totally
    naive about the realities of ocean sailing.
    
    When you're in a storm in really high seas, is it possible for
    a large (say 50') sailboat to actually get far enough out of the
    water for it to enter free-fall?  If so, does this mean that boats
    for such conditions have to be designed so that they could be
    dropped say 20' from a crane into the water without damage?
    
    Just curious...
    
    Doug.

>    When you're in a storm in really high seas, is it possible for
>    a large (say 50') sailboat to actually get far enough out of the
>    water for it to enter free-fall? 

It's possible, but it doesn't happen very often. In very heavy weather,
waves "break" at the top. If your 50-ft sailboat is at the top of a 50ft
wave when it breaks, it may fall, and lots of water may crash on top
of it, too.

>    If so, does this mean that boats
>    for such conditions have to be designed so that they could be
>    dropped say 20' from a crane into the water without damage?

Boats aren't expected to survive events like this without damage. If they
survive without sinking and/or dismasting and/or breaking the rudder,
that's a reasonable compromise. Note that a boat will rarely free-fall more than
a few feet, and it usually lands on water whose surface is at a steep angle.
(This substantially reduces the impact load.) The damage level from this type of
event is (part of) what distinguishes an offshore boat from a floating
winnebago. 

--RS