Conference unifix::sailing

    I hate to admit it but I have a weakness for wooden boats.  I am
    usually able to control this weakness but not always.  At the present
    time I am partially through the restoration of a 40+ year of SNIPE. All
    the rotted out planking has been replaced, the spars sanded and
    refinished.  Now the time consuming stuff sanding, filling, caulking,
    and painting.  The SNIPE belongs to the Lowell Festival Sailing
    program. Only a fool spends their own money to restore someone elses
    boat.
      
    I see that you re-canvassed the decks where did you find the canvass,
    most of the places I have talked to pretend like I must be from another
    planet.  Once the clubs SNIPE is done I think I will build myself a
    WINDMILL.  I know these are all small boats but it keeps me sane. 
    
    
    Forrest  (Another Naval Architect in computer land)

    
    Mmmm , I'm another wooden boat fan . Mainly for their style and
    history I think . I've spent the summer renovating a 1925 carvel
    construction 20' centreboard  sloop . It seemed like a good idea at the time
    , but took a hell of a lot more work than I ever expected . Great
    fun though . Its now in the water and looking very smart , though
    with an ever increasing number of jobs to be done to it seems .
    I bought the boat in bits for a hundred pounds ( 160 dollars ? )
    and must have spent another 200 pounds on it . I bought decking
    canvas from a tent maker , who apparently sells most of his
    stocks to local artists who commend it on its quality for oil 
    painting . 
    
    A good learning experience about owning your own boat for me .Next
    time round I'll buy a boat already up together and spend my summer
    weekends sailing rather than working !
    
    Wooden boats are great if you've the time to love them with .
    
    DAve
   

    Mentioned elsewhere, but I ring in on another axis of wooden boat
    craziness. I'm building a 36' flush-deck cutter in mid-tech epoxy/wood.
    I may even finish before my daughter gets through college (currently
    grade 8).
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    	I have a 16 ft plywood WINDMILL that I bought last year. I'll
    find out about upkeep in the spring I guess!
    	I prefer the looks of a wooden boat and am interested in buying
    something for ocean daysailing and overnite cruises. I have been
    checking out the ads in Wooden Boat. Is anyone familiar with a
    Kings Cruiser or a Wianno Senior? Especially the sailing
    characteristics?
    	
    	Bob
    

    I have a 34' cutter, mahogany over oak. I bought it four years ago
    against the advice of Paul Cobel who I had survey the boat. The
    survey was one of the best buys. I have spent three years restoring
    and sailing it. One of the major actions I took was to laminate
    a three inch frame from gunnel to gunnel to a shaped oak floor.
    I'm going to put in two more, not quite so wide this winter, but
    I'm going to get some bronze floors cast and laminate the frames
    to the floor. Trying to shape the wooden floor and keep everything
    in place while I pressed the fame members in place was a bit
    much.
    
    The boat is basicaly an Alden design although I have a print of
    it and the designer is "mcgreggor" Anyone have any information
    . There is no address or date on the sail plan.
    
    One of the problems I had, an earlier owner had used epoxy varnish
    on everything!!  They just kept varnishing over everything. Well,
    each nick or cut ended up raising blisters and it looked like
    it had leoporsy!!  What a mess!!, I have spent weekss, and the bright
    work still is not finished.
    
    I had been able to buy exotic woods for her in Shrewsbury, ma, but
    that part of the business was closed. Does anyone know of a
    reasonably close resource (within a 100 miles) where one can pick
    up sitka spruce, mahogany, white oak?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Don DTN 297-2225
    

    Hello!
    
     My name is Gregg Germain. I am about to enter the wooden boat insanity
    list! I put an offer on a Herreshoff S-boat - 27ft. cedar on oak.
    It is in mint condition (had it inspected). It needs the usual after
    season work below the waterline. The brightwork is done,a nd beautiful.
    
    
     The owner has too much arthiritis to sail any more, and he needs
    to sell, as it is just sitting in the yard. I offered 25% less than
    he asked, and he said we would wait thru October, and if he didn't
    get any better offers, that we could "do business".
    
     it's a little scary, because I've never owned a boat (much less
    a wooden boat). But I have a good friend who has a wodden boat,
    and I have some idea as to the work involved. I am sure I'll learn
    more!
    
     Tell you one thing, though, a boat isn't a boat unless it has a
    mast, and is made from wood!
    
     Hope to hear from all of you insane folks soon!
    
    			Gregg

    Before I bought a S&S one-off, I had fallen in love with the Wianno
    Senior's pure traditional looks.  And there were several in the
    harbor where I was going to be moored.  I had emotionally made up
    my mind that a Wianno was THE boat for me.
    
    If you're serious about a Wianno, make sure you sail one before you
    lay out the cash.  The one I sailed had weather helm that wouldn't
    quit.  She also had little in the way of freeboard and that made
    her a relatively wet boat.  But the kicker that really moved me
    away from a purchase was the pure, brut strength effort required
    to raise that gaff main.  Understand that this was a purist's boat
    so not only was there no motor, there were no helpers in terms of
    winches for that main.  I have since seen some modifications that
    would make it easier.  Most of the folks in the harbor that have
    Wiannos use them strictly for daysailing versus overnight cruising.
    I doubt if I'd want to spend much time below.
    
    Good luck in your search.
    
    Sandy
    
    spend much time
    

    I virtually grew up on a Wianno Sr., so couldn't let this pass without
    comment...
    
    The Wianno is a classic wooden boat - lovely to look at, lovely
    to sail, but in today's terms less than lovely to pay for.
    
    While racing 'round the buoys over many years, we routinely eliminated
    ALL weather helm by a number of different means - mast adjustment,
    ballast adjustment, peak/throat halyard adjustment, zipper adjustment,
    as well as the sheets. Then it was a real dream to sail - a wonderful
    feel - so sensitive.
    
    As to other accoutrements, most boats in the fleet had 1 or 2 small
    winches mounted to the cabin for multiple uses. Ours had a well
    on the transom to accommodate mounting an outboard for cruising.
    Although my brother and  friend cruised for a week aboard her, I'd
    call her snug today.
    
    Right on one point though, with the low freeboard she was wet in
    any significant sea. However, due to her design it used to be said
    that you'd get a new one if you were able to capsize one. A really
    safe boat to learn the ropes in regardless of the story...
    
    I love 'em and threaten to charter one every summer, but by the
    next Spring, other priorities have taken over... oh well.
    
    We used to routinely have a dozen cross the starting line - 40 for
    interclub regattas. What a beautiful sight!
    
    Pete

    	As a former Wianno Sr crew I have a very bias view of the boat.
    They are beautiful, expensive, wet, and have enough weather helm
    to tire a gorilla.  They have no real cabin to speak of.  However
    I love the boat and have a great deal of respect for their ability
    to handle rough weather.  Crosby Yacht Yard of Osterville MA, the
    builder, use to give you a free Wianno if you could tip one over! 
    Crosby's Yacht Yard made about 170 wood Wiannios from 1905(?) to
    1976.  An extensive effort has been completed to make a Fiberglas 
    boat with the feel and performance of the wooden boat.  The 'glass
    boats look gorgeous.
    	There is a great deal of history in this boat and the Wianno
    Association has some really classy people in it.  There is
    a small but frenzied group of people who love this boat and take
    the races *very* serious.  One of the reasons I know so much is
    that my uncle owns Crosby Yacht Yard and I've spent a fair amount
    hanging out in the sheds.  If you want to confirm the age post the
    hull number and I'll check it out.  Hull 109 was made in 1945 and
    the last wooden boat 172(?) was made in '76.
    	If I had the money or the time I'd love to get one.  I had my
    fill of wooden boats taking care of my Beetle Cat for 9 years.
    
    					=Ralph=   
    
     
    RE .8 - Where do you sail out of?  Which boat?

    I sailed #113 "West Wind" out of Harwichport in the late 50's and
    early 60's till the family's interests changed to cruising in a
    Northeast 38 (rubber duck).
    
    Pete

    RE: 663.10  Do you still make the trek to Harwichport?  I'm moored
    in Wychmere and, in fact, almost bought Arthur Cote's Wianno.  Do
    you know whatever happened to Flame?  Now there was a sweet looking
    Wianno.
    
    If you get down that way, stop in and say hi.  BEAU JANGLES is a
    32' wood cutter, bow sprit, white hull, and lots of mahogany.  She's
    moored in the very southeast corner of Wychmere.
    
    Sandy
    

    Are there any caulking experts in this wooden world?
    
    I have to caulk my boat, and I have a few questions:
    
    1) how do you decide on the size of strand?
       I have a 3/4" cedar on oak.
    
    2) how far do you drive it in?
    
    3) I read where you are supposed to drive in "loops". Are the "open
    ends of the loops touching? see diagram:
    
    
    ccccc cccccc cccccc cccccc    or   ccccc       ccccc      ccccc
        c c    c c    c c                  c       c   c      c
       c   c  c   c  c   c                 c       c   c      c
        ccc    ccc    ccc                   ccccccc     cccccc
    
    the view is the overhead view, the c's are the strands of caulk.
    The caulker is driving the strand in from the bottom of the screen
    to the top, and has made the first pass. I read where you are supposed
    to drive in "corners" to make the loops, then make another pass
    to drive n the loops. it seems to me that the left hand side will
    result in more than one "layer" of cotton, where the right hand
    side results in a more uniform "spread". Can anyone explain this?
    
    			Thanks
    
    			Gregg

    Caulking is really fairly simple.  Follow these steps:
    
    1. reef out existing caulking totally.
    
    2. clean the seam.  While you are reefing and cleaning be VERY careful
       not to split out the bevel on the planks.
    
    3. paint the seam with red lead.  This is the real red lead.  It
       is poisonous.  You can get it from any marine paint supplier
       but it is expensive.  Thin the red lead to the consistency of
       water with gum turps.  Do not settle for anything other than
       red lead as it is the only thing which properly holds the cotton.
       Let the red lead dry 1 day before proceeding.
    
    4. roll your caulking and drive it.  Your drawing on the right is
       correct.  The reason for tacking the caulking at regular intervals
       is to prevent the strand from thinning out as you go.  The cotton
       should be driven so that it's top is at the bottom of the bevel:
    
                            \     /
                             \   /
                     plank    |c|   plank
                             _|c|_     
                                
    
    5. Paint again with thinned red lead.
    
    6. fill the bevel (just hollow) with underwater seam compound.
    
    DO NOT USE 5200 or anything of that nature.  It is too strong and
    will totally destroy the planking if you should ever have to remove
    it.
    
    The size of the cotton strand you use depends on the width of the
    seam and the amount amount the wood swells.  The rule of thumb is
    to use a cotton (uncompressed) which is 4-5 times the diameter of
    the seam you are filling.  Cedar swells quite a lot.  Assuming your
    planks are well fitted, a 3/4 to 1" cotton should work fine.  Just
    remember to use a cotton which when driven with a caulking hammer
    will fit and fill the space between the planks below the bevel.
    
    Regards;
    
    Geoff 

    The answers in -.1 are good, but a minor point in part 4. The inside
    edges of the plank should be wood to wood contact, not have cotton
    between them. The cotton goes down at the bottom of the V. I hate
    character drawing, but Ill try:
    
      --\    /---           --\    /--
         \  /                  \cc/
         |c|                    ||
       __|c|__               ___||___

      WRONG                  RIGHT

    One of the major causes of leaks in old boats is someone overdriving
    the cotton down into the wood to wood joint area, forcing them apart.
    That make the sides considerably weaker, the planks move move, someone
    hammers in more cotton, driving the planks further apart etc. etc.
    
    From my experience the biggest single problem with old boats has
    come from hammering in to much cotton. In fact with some of the
    good modern caulks Im not sure cotton is even needed. I agree that
    using 3M 3200 is bad because its such a good glue, but Ive used
    lots of Sika Flex and find it great.

    Thanks for the caulking info. I have yet another problem that perhaps
    you could help me with. 
    
    I decided to bite the bullet, and replace 5 cracked frames. They
    are all forward of the main bulkhead, 3 port, 2 starboard. There
    is 10 frame stations up there. The length ranges from 2 feet (small
    curvature) to about 3-1/2 feet (bent more, but NOT a compond curve).
    
    The stock is 1-1/4" x 1-1/4".
    
    The question is:
    
    How much steam do you need to generate? The books I have show steambox
    rigs that can soften some serious stock. For my purposes, do you
    have any idea what size rig I need?
    
    Are there places where you can take your stock and get them steamed
    (so that you could yank them out and form them on jigs immediately)?
    
    			Thanks,
    
    			Gregg

    Using a piece of PVC pipe, a teapot, and a hotplate, you can make
    a serviceable steam box. You need to steam for approx. 1 hr. per
    inch of stock thickness. Make sure the steambox has a drain so the
    stock does not sit in water. 

    I tried PVC pipe once and it got kind of soft- steam is HOT. I also
    tried aluminum downspout and it didnt work at all- radiated all
    the heat into the air, condensed all the steam.
    
    You do need the box to be somewhat sealed to keep as much steam
    in , and raise the pressure a bit. On my wooden box Ive made a rabbet
    in the end that holds a sliding gate to close off the end.
    
    I try to arrange the box so the condensed water will drain back
    into the steam pipe and back into the boiler. That keeps things
    going longer, but 2 gal of water will steam for about 2 hours over
    my coleman camp stove.

    Hi there, wooden boat fans!
    
     Have an interesting little problem. One of the planks separated
    from the frame at about mid-plank. upon inspection, I noticed that
    the bottom of the frame was rotten, and that the plank had been
    a problem in previous times: THERE ARE 7 FASTENER HOLES IN THAT
    ONE STATION ALONE! So I removed the bad section of frame, and am
    in the process of replacing it,and sistering in a partial frame.
    
     My question is this:
    
     I intend to use three of the seven fastener holes. What is the
    best way to plug the remaining holes. Just a bung? The holes will
    be backed by the new frame.
    
    		Gregg
    
    

    Are you *certain* the rot has not migrated to the planking?!? I
    would seriously consider replacing the plank as well, as those
    7 holes will no doubt cause a weak spot. If you choose to keep
    the plank you might consider adding another sister frame on the
    other side of the rotted frame and fasten to that as well so
    you bridge the old holes. Use the same type wood as the plank
    for bungs and your favorite glue. Don't assume the bungs will
    add any strength to the plank. Good sailing! Ciao, Ed

    Ed,
    
     Yeah, I checked the plank - no rot. But the frames on either side
    of the one I sistered are rotted at the bottom about 1' - 2' up
    the frame.
    
     Since I have 4 frames on the starboard side that are cracked, and
    3 on the port side, these new 3 (starboard) make a total of 7 on
    the starboard side. I figure that there will be a weight penalty
    in sistering in all seven, so I am going to replace them entirely.
    Also, the 3 on the port side.
    
     I have a couple questions. First, I am going to replace all of
    the bolts used to fasten the frames onto the floors. The originals
    were galvanized, but I have read (in Stewart's great boatbuilding
    book) that galvanized isn't what it used to be. They used to be
    dipped, now they are electroplated. He recommends against them.
    So If I have some old galvanized, and the boat is fastened
    silicon-bronze, what choice do I have for these bolts? Go with the
    galvanizes anyway? And replace them every few years? 
    Is MONEL strong enough for this job?
    
     The other decision I need to make is whether to laminate new frames,
    or steambend whole frames. Laminating is stronger, and does not
    require a jig. But it takes longer, and is heavier (all of that
    epoxy). On the other hand steambent is lighter, pretty strong, but
    requires a jig to bend them.
    
     Fortunately, I have decided not to launch this year (ha ha ha).
    So May 1 is my projected launch date. Kind of sounds like the Space
    Shuttle.......
    
    		Gregg

    Ciao Greg. What is the size of the rib/plank set? I wouldn't worry
    too much about weight unless you have a small racer:-).. I have
    done both and prefer steam or sawn over laminating (due mostly to
    the smell/mess of the latter). If you get some crooked oak at the
    mill you might be able to do the sawn work with only 1-2 joints.
    Steam is pretty easy too and I have even done a combination of the
    two (ie. steam a rib with an overly large cross section and
    saw-to-fit).But works best where not too much radius. If you are
    sili-bronze fastened I'd go with sili-brz for the floor-to-rib
    fastening. Don't worry about strength. There is plenty of material
    in sheer direction no matter what you use. Monel would work and,
    yes, if the galvi gets wet it will need watching and renewing before
    it get a head start. Sili-brz is best. I used 3/8" on my operaton
    with 1 1/8" planking (hard mahog) and 2" oak ribs/2" floors, under
    the mast step and have had no problems in 7 years.
                                                      
    Best of luck! Ciao , Ed

    I dont understand why you think you need a jig to steam bend? Just
    bend the new frame in the place of the old, fasten it while its
    hot, and you are done.

    I don't know how flexible the steamed piece is - I have 1-1/4" square
    stock.
    
    How do you cut the bevel,and be sure it will fit, before you bend
    the stock? How much bracing does it need to keep the steamed rib
    flush against the planks? How do you know how to trim the piece
    of frame that meets the keelson so that, when installed the rib
    lies against the planks at the bottom.?
    
     Also, and this is a general problem, I cannot fit a drill in between
    the floors to drill the holes necessary for the throughbolts attaching
    rib to floor - there is only 8 - 10" between floors.

    
     If there is a way to cut and trim the rib before steaming so that
    it will fit perfectly, then I'd love to know, because I don't enjoy
    building jigs.
    
    
    Re: -2
    
    Ed,
    
     Thanks, I get the Silly-Bronze! I feel better about that knowing
    that the boat won't dissolve through electrolysis!
    
    		Gregg

    I completely re-framed a 27' Folkboat. Frames were 1" sq, on about
    9" centers. With a metal tape you can measure the overall total
    length and cut the stock to size. The lower end usually fits into
    a pocket cut in the keel, which you can measure and layout on the
    stock. The top end is almost always simply a flat cut.
    
    We held the frame in place with 4 feet. Thats is two helpers holding
    onto whatever they could get ahold of, and their feet on the frames.
    Made for some interesting contortions :-). From the outside I drilled
    the fastening holes and ran in the bolts- FOlkboats are lapstrake,
    we replaced the rivets with 10-24 bronze bolts. The bolts alone
    pulled the frames tight to the planks, the nuts were added later.
    
    No bevel is needed, but some times a bit of twist is needed. For
    this make up a piece of oak in the form of an open end wrench.
    You use this as a lever to twist the stock.
    
    Drilling holes into floor ties takes a 90 degree angle head on the
    drill. You can buy good right angle drills, or just a small adaptor
    to place on an electric drill.
    
    Ive got a bunch of slides taken while doing the re-framing. If you
    are near Maynard/Marlboro Id be happy to show them.

    Hmmmmm. I thought that a bevel was needed to allow the rib to fit
    flush with the planks, and also allow them to be square with the
    keel - giving maximum strength.
    
    There are no pockets in the keel to receive the end of the rib -
    the ribs in my boat are trimmed to fit..
    
    		Gregg

    As you bend a steamed rib into the boat, you simultaneously twist
    it so the outer face of the rib lies fair with the planking at all
    points. As a result, ribs often deviate slightly from a true vertical
    plane. And that's right, ribs have no bevel.
    
    To pick nits, a steamed and bent rib is a rib. A sawn or laminated
    'rib' is a frame. It usually has fore and aft faces which lie in
    a true vertical plane (within the limits of the builder's skill),
    and must be beveled to be made fair for the planking. These are
    two noticeably different techniques. Sometimes laminated frames
    are twisted to produce a bevel instead of being dubbed off, but
    these will usually deviate from vertical much more than a steamed
    rib, because they are much less elastic and will shift more in order
    to come fair. Much of this is dependent on the amount of force
    available; they bigger and more numerous the clamps, the more you
    can force a laminated frame to bend in two planes.
    
    Each technique has its advantages; the fact that the faces of
    sawn/laminated frames lie square can be very useful. But steamed
    ribs are usually exceptionally fair, much quicker, and easy. I doubt
    that there's an important difference in strength, depending on
    materials used (in New England at least, steamed usually means oak).
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    re.25: Rather than worry about how close the rib comes to the keel
    better to leave about 1/2" or so clearance for water to drain through.
    Probably the close fit originally trapped water and caused the rot...
    Good luck/fun! Ciao Ed

    Ed,
    
     Good suggestion. I can't take too much off because the throughbolt
    to the floor is right there - but there is enough space to leave
    a gap.
    
     I have been trying to discover the cause of the rot. One possibility
    is that the endgrain was not sealed well enough - or resealed
    occasionally. Another is that the rib seems to be of RED oak not
    white. The staying power of red oak is pretty poor compared to white.
    The portion if the rib which is weak is below the cabin soles -
    right in the bilge. So it's possible that it got pretty wet, wasn't
    sealed properly, and rtted out.
    
     Naturally, I have a supply of good straightgrained white oak for
    the new ribs.
    
    			Gregg

    Also I suggest the use of red-lead in the bilge ( I know its hard
    to get, messy and environmentally frowned upon, but WORKS!) as the
    cuprinol type prods wash away quickly and re-application needs dry
    wood. Between steaming and red-leading you'll be almost certain
    that the new ribs will still be there when the rest is gone ;-)
    Ciao Ed
    

    Yeah, all of the books I have suggest swabbing the planks-to-rib
    areas with red lead.
    
    Another question - I have some old galvanized throughbolts which
    I will leave in (different area) The previous owner swabbed them
    down with something red. What was that - red lead? It is some kind
    of treatment to preserve the bolts.
    
    Another question - all of the books say that the floor-to-rib
    throughbolt must fit tightly in the hole. So they suggest epoxy.
    What if you need to remove it later? Steward suggests carriagebolts.
    I was wondering if a hex head machine bolt with washer would be
    ok. at least then, if I need to remove it from the epoxy filled
    hole, I have something to grab a hold of.
    
     Thanks for all the help.
    
    		Gregg

    I wouldn't put epoxy in the hole. Drill the hole slightly smaller
    for a tight fit! Hex is ok as it also ensures you can tighten
    after a few years. Probably redlead on the galvi to keep out water.
    How are these bolts holding up? I had a prob with my galvi in that
    they had rusted, and as rust takes up ~10x the volume of the original
    metal the small amount expanded enough to split several of the ribs,
    hence my first experience with ribs, galvi and silli-brz (-; Good
    fun. Ciao Ed

    I made a trial run in steam bending, and noted the following problems
    - perhaps you could help....
    After removing the rib from the jig, it straightened out much more
    than was acceptable. I cut the jig to allow overbending, but obviously
    not enough.
    
    Is the amount of springback a function of how "steamed" the piece
    is? It bent without splitting, but I had to use a lot of brute force
    (1-1/4" white oak. The steam box was not putting out clouds of steam,
    and I steamed it for 1.5 hours. 
    
    Should I generate more steam? How much overbend should I put in
    the jig? 
    
    	thanks,
    
    	Gregg

    How long did you wait after steaming before trying to remove the
    piece? Id wait at least a few hours.
    
    Ive always heard, and used, the rule of 1 hour per inch of thickness,
    soyour 1.5 hour should have been fine. I often add a cup or so of
    liquid soap to the boiler water, it seems to drive the steam into
    the wood better, it lowers the surface tension of the wood. 
    
    Its also best if the steam box is rather tight, so as to raise a
    bit of steam pressure. Not enough to make a boiler explosion, just
    a few psi.
    
    When I remove the stock from the steamer I give it a good bend just 
    by holding its two ends and bending. You can feel it yield. Then pop 
    it in place.

    I waited a few hours before I pulled it off the jig.
    
     When you say you bent it by hand, it makes me wonder if the piece
    was steamed enough because I was unable to grasp the two ends of
    a 6 foot long 1-1/4" square piece, and bend it by hand. I got it
    on the jig in about 2 - 2.5 minutes from when I got it out of the
    box.
    
     I am going to try again this weekend. More steam, caulk the box,
    I'll try the soap idea. Also, I am going to soakthe piece in salt
    water for 24 hrs before steaming.
    
    		Thanks
    
    		Gregg

    Well, you learn by doing....
    
     After three tries, I got a rib I can use. I now have a feel for
    the overbend required, and I got more steam up in the box.
    
     Monday, I cleared out the old rib, and prepped the station for
    the new rib.
    
     The old owners of the boat ought to be found and shot........
    
     The rib was pretty much rotted out. And instead of replacing it,
    they added more and more fasteners. Almost every plank had twice
    to three times as many fasteners as required. AND they would place
    them so close to each other that the countersink would bore out
    some of the head of an adjacent screw. Really sickening....
    \
    
     So I cleared out all of that stuff, and Friday, I am going to put
    the new rib in. It will be VERY satisfying to get that new rib in,
    because it has been a long learning and doing process to get to
    this point - making a steam box, wondering how to construct a
    convenient jig, will I have enough steam?, how much to overbend,
    etc......
     
     Then it'll be - one down, six to go......... But the next six should
    be easier.
    
     How are all of your boats doing?
    
    		Thanks for your help.
    
   			Gregg 

Well, I have one rib installed - it is a very satisfying feeling to make 
some progress in reconstruction.

I will be making other ribs for the boat. Some will be steam bent, others 
will be laminated.

 One of the big problems I run into is trying to back out old screws. 
Either the wood is punky, and the screw spins where it sits, or the screw 
head is so weak, it just breaks into several pieces making it impossible to 
remove it from the outside.

 If any of you have some handy tips on this, I'd appreciate them. It is 
hard to get those things out without damaging the countersinks.

		Thanks,

		Gregg

    One solution I saw in a magazine, but may not be suitable for you
    (?), was to remove a core of wood along with the screw with a special
    coring tool (like a tube with saw-teeth on one end and a slot up
    the side for chaff to come out) then put in hardwood dowels as new
    fasteners.  This method was used to restore a Mediterranean caique.
    
    Brian

    I've always liked the notion of fastening with dowels - no metal.
    But it would be hard to remove those as well.
    
     Has anybody ever used the screw removing borers? You drill a hole
    and then bore in with these jobs but the threads are reversed.
    
    		Then what?
    
    Do you Pull? or spin the screw out?
    
    		Gregg

    
    Re: -.1
    
    "screw removing borers"  Ive never heard this term, but from the
    rest of your description I think you are talking about what I know
    as 'easy-outs'. These are a course, left hand, tapered thread. When
    the head of a screw or bolt breaks you drill a small hole, then
    insert the easy-out and turn left. The theory is the sharp edges
    of the easy-out will dig in to the bolt to be removed and back it
    out.
    
    Thats the theory, the practice is that the easy-out usually digs
    a larger, taperd hole in the bolt. Clearly if the bolt wasnt
    badly stuck, you probably wouldnt have buggered the head to need
    the easy-out in the first place.
    
    They do work but I dont think they would help for this application.
    They really only come in sizes larger than 1/4". Also the usual
    problem in old plank screws is the the entire screw has become brittle,
    the head is simply the first part to break off as you try to remove
    it. the rest of the screw isnt any stronger, so even if you got
    a small easy-out into it, it would just crumble further in.
    
    Ive pulled lots of old screw with this problem and there is no easy
    way. Sometimes you can dig some of it out with an ice-pick, sometimes
    you can drill enough away to put in the next larger size. Usually
    you drill off enough to get the plank off and simply plug the old
    hole and re-fasten elsewhere.
    

    One tool that occasionally works is a dental pick with a tapered
    spiral point.  These can be found in hardware stores as well as
    drug stores.  I mostly use mine for cleaning old paint out of moldings
    in my old house.  If the screw head is still attached, it's sometimes
    possible to work the pick under it enough to pull the screw out
    without excessively gouging the countersink hole.  If the head has
    broken off, one can try to scrap the remnants out with
    a straighter version of the same pick.  But this is very slow. 
    
    These are usually sold in kits of three or four with various shaped
    points and are not expensive.
    
    - gene ho

    Another dumb idea for removing spinning screws that's sometimes
    worked:  take a Q-tip and dip the end in any handy fast setting
    adhesive (caulking, liguid nails, rubber cement, etc) and place
    on the head of the screw.  Wait a bit, then extract.  Obviously
    works only if the screw is intact and just spinning loosely in its
    hole.  Be careful not to get any glue on the sides of the Q-tip
    or it'll get stuck.

    Re: .39 Yeah, the 'screw boring..." was my sad attempt to generate a
    name that described the tool, because I couldn't remember what it
    was called. But you guessed right.
    
     Usually, the screw is so brittle that it comes apart. Very
    frustrating. Since I am removing old ribs, and replacing them with
    new, I now remove the plug, back out all the screws that I can,
    get below and break the rib with a chisel, then try to back the
    screws outboard from below. This also has a destructive effect on
    the counterbores.
    
     I like the Q-tip idea for the spinning screws! Very good!
    
    	What are the rest of you guys doing to your boats?
    
    		Gregg

    I have replaced a number of frames in my 34' Mah. \oak. I'm
    bronze fastened so the screws are generally intact but have little
    threads and not much head.
    I use a sharp awl to try to regain some slot in the top of the
    screw before I even try a screwdriver. I use the screwdriver just
    to get the fastening roatating. I took a pair of longnose pliers,
    fairly heavy, and cut the tips down to squared ends, the width of
    the screw slot. There is usually enough head left, with the aid
    of the awl that allows enough grip to rotate and extract, gingerly!
    Usually works....
    
    Why aren't you replacing all your frames with laminated ones?
    
    Don

    I can generally get lots of slot in the screwhead, but when I try
    to turn the screw, the head disintegrates, leaving 1/2 of the screw
    head, or nothing.
    
     I wanted to learn how to bend a solid frame. Also, since the boat
    is a racing boat, I was concerned with the additional weight of
    a laminated frame.
    
     But, as I said, the two midship frames that I have to replace will
    be laminated. 
    
    			Gregg

re .44:

Additional weight of a laminated frame? Yes, epoxy is somewhat denser 
than wood, but the thickness of the glue line in a laminated frame 
is probably .01 to .02 inch. If the bent frame and the laminated
frame are made from the same wood and have the same dimensions, I'd 
suspect that the weight difference would be mininal (maybe 0.05 to 0.1
pound per rib -- making a wild guess at the dimensions of your ribs).
Since laminated frames are stronger, this seems like a small weight
penalty. Just wondering. 

    Also have read West material that suggests mixing layers of oak
    and say mahogany or YP. These woods are of lighter weight but
    give a better absorbant surface for good bonding when used with
    oak. And you have a less weight contributed by the wood.
    
    My  hull was sistered some time ago. The sisters in the areas
    of most curvature are cracked as well. So I have a heavy boat.
    As I have been replacing the original frame and its sister, I
    have used a width that is perhaps 65% of their combined width.
    While I wanted to reduce weight, I also wanted to give some
    additional width to recieve an additional fastner (I use
    1/4-20 FHSBMS screws for planking) into the bilge clamp and
    the shear clamp. I bore thru plank, frame & clamp, then a
    clearance hole for the carriage bolt head. Since I laminate
    my replacement frames as one piece from shear clamp to shear
    clamp and the keel bolts tie it to the floor, I am making
    a STRONG free standing frame to which the planking is bolted.
    It is even stronger than the original frame was before the
    planking was installed because A) laminated frames, B) one
    continuous frame, C) bolted & laminated to a shaped floor
    with the keel bolt, D) Added thickness laminated to the
    frame as it passes over the floor gives stronger garboard
    and 1st & 2nd plank support, E) carefully selected sawn
    short frames are bolted to the floors, the garboards and
    #1 & #2 are bolted to this, F) The bilge clamp is secured
    to the frame by a thru fastening rather than wood screw
    driven thru the clamp into the inside surface of the frame.
    
    I hace observed a lot of wood hulls. I have never seen the
    frames damaged and hopeless in a rivited assembly. The
    tension is to hold the frame to clamp or or plank to
    frame by clamping tension while the screw tends to also
    weaken the frame by spliting action.
    
    Would like to have used rivits. They are less expensive. However
    they require two people to set. 
    
    
    I remember when I first sailed the boat how it would twist
    like a set of rolly coaster cars. I thought this was built
    into the design of the boat. I sailed on a much newer
    constructed traditional wood boat and found it to be stiff.
    What a revelation!!!  I can tell you just three frames
    installed as I noted has made my boat one solid feeling mass.
    I'm bringing the boat home this winter and I expect to put
    in three more.
    
    Don
    

    Thanks for all the viewpoints.
    
     Have any of you seen the wood screws that have square holes inthem
    instead of slots or phillips? What is their name, and who sells
    them? I was reading an issue of Wooden Boat,and in one of the letters,
    someone mentioned that they slip far less than slots.
    
    
    			Gregg
    
    

    I would avoid any fastner in a wood boat that does not have a slotted
    head, if that fastner may have to be removed some day. There were
    a few phillips in mine, above and below the water line. They were
    #12 & #14 sizes. It seems that corrosion like to first hit narrow
    or pointy surfaces and softens them. Phillips go quickly!!! And
    there is no way with a scatch awl or shaped long nose pliers to
    get a grip. I would expect to see the square surfaces soften on
    a square holed screw, the hole in general would enlarge and the
    sloppy fit with the removal tool would round it I would think before
    it came out. The problem is there is no way to reshape the hole
    or get a grip surface for longnose. 
    
    I continue to favor slotted because even if there is not enough
    slot left for a screwdriver to grip, there is usually enough
    ear or lip left for shaped longnose to grip, turn and extract.
    
                                                                  
    Don

    I have galvinized floors which vary from good to poor.  Worse though
    is that all of them appear to have fastenings which are going. 
    Rather than put new fastenings in old floors I thought it would
    make sense to  replace the foors as I refasten.
    
    If I'm going to replace, I might as well use Bronze replacements
    (oh what twisted logic we use).   Any thoughts on how much this
    might cost or how I could fabricate new floors?  Can you buy bronze
    bar stock and just bend it to suit or is it necessary to cast the
    floor?  The present galvanized ones are simple \__/ shapes.

There was an article in SAIL or CRUISING WORLD some time back by Larry 
Pardey describing the bronze floors in his new boat. I think that he had 
them cast. Bronze is veddy, veddy expensive. Have you considered having 
your present floors regalvanized?

    Captain,
    
    you must tell us some things about your boat, like length,
    materials, fastenings, shape of the bilge, keel material,
    typical size of a floor to be changed, material & size
    of keel bolts, condition of frame ends, etc.....

    re: .51
    
    This boat is 38' LOD, 26' LWL, 9' BWL.  It is copper rivetted teak
    on oak carvel planked.  The hull is full keel (wine glass).  Keel
    bolts and garboards are new (within 2 years).  Frames were inspected
    and sistered where needed at the same time as the garboard replacement.
    
    I believe the backbone is oak and the ballast (7600 #) is externally
    hung lead.  The floors are quite varied as you move aft.  Forward,
    they are shaped like truncated v where each side is approximately
    24" in length.  Aft of the mast (the bilge is getting some depth
    here) they look more rectangular with something like 18" sides and
    a 12" base.  The sectional dimensions vary as well, from 1 1/2" by
    5/8" to 2 1/4" by 1" as you move aft.

    I don't know if this is normal or not but none of the keel bolts
    are going through any of these floors.  In fact, in the area of
    the keel bolts there aren't to many metal floors.  Instead there
    are massive oak beams that appear to do the same job while the floors
    here are spaced so as to miss the keel bolts (these are stainless).
    
    The floors themselves (with only one exception) appear to have plenty
    of meat left though they are pretty rusted.  The bungs are showing
    signs of being pushed out which would indicate rusted fastenings.

    Can the floors be regalvanized with scaly rust present?  And, if
    they remain galvanized what is the best material for the new fastenings?

The important thing is the amount of material left in the floors. If they are
deeply pitted, corroded, with layers of rust scaling off, they probably can't
be salvaged. If they are largely sound, then they can be sand blasted and
re-galvanized. If in doubt, remove one and take it to someone who does
marine dip galvanizing, and ask.

The usual fasteners with galvanized structure are dip-galvanized themselves.
They are available from places like Standard Fastenings in New Bedford, or
for more money from Jamestown Distributors.

I would keep a close eye on those stainless keel bolts. The recommended
material for keel bolts in lead ballast is bronze, although stainless is
common these days as it's cheaper. It's worth yanking one of the bolts every
few years and checking for corrosion or pitting near the nut or where the
ballast meets the deadwood.

Ross Faneuf

    Ok. It's FRAME TIME again!!!!!!
    
    I'm in the midst of building a laminated frame, and I have a few
    questions.
    
     First, I have this book that describes the laminated frame process
    
     This guy MUST be on drugs. He suggests building a simle jig, steaming
    the strips, putting them in the jig, and , when they are cool, place
    them in the boat epoxying as you go. He says that if you put enough
    bracing on them, there should be absolutely NO gaps anywhere on
    the interfaces. I cannot see how this could be.
    
     I bent a few strips, and epoxied them together OUTSIDE of the boat,
    using C clamps. Each strip did not fit flush to the next one because
    of some cupping. Each strip cupped a different amount. Sometimes
    the cupping was so great, that the joint failed, not on the epoxy,
    but next to it (epoxy being stronger than wood). I used many more
    C clamps than the number of braces he suggested. There's no way
    his braces could have exerted enough pressure to flatten the strips.
    
     Since people claim that epoxy is a good gap filler, what would
    be the problem, if any of gaps in between the strips. Say 1/16"
    or less in width, and one or two inches in length (tapering at the
    ends to no gap). Assume that the epoxy was loaded on so that the
    gaps are completely filled.
    
    			Gregg

    I agree that laminating a frame by wedging it from the insdie is
    very unlikely to work. Every laminated thing Ive made has required
    every C-clamp I own toget it nice and tight.
    
    The only way I can see laminating directly in place would be to
    fasten the rib as you laminate it, until it has all of its final
    fastenings- usually one or two per plank. That would probably get
    it tight enough, but then the edges of the frame would look awful-
    you can never get all the laminations EXACTLY lined up, and the
    glue squeeze out needs to be cleaned up. 
    
    I always laminate on a jig- usually a flat piece of 3/4" ply with
    short blocks screwed down with drywall screws to form the curve.
    When the glue is set I send the frame thru the thickness planner,
    and cringe all the while as I think about what all that epoxy
    is doing to my planer knives!
    
    I would bend in new frames, not laminate them. Id use laminated
    deck beams, because one form can be made for all of the beams, but
    I think its eaiser to steam in frames than laminate.

    The previous owner of my boat did a big sistering job (27 ribs).
    He started by laminating in jigs but was not happy with the results
    and time it took so he changed methods to laminate in place.
    
    The method used was to tack each lamination with copper tacks which
    were left in place.  I didn't see it done but the results look good.
    I haven't noticed gaps at all and some of the bends were compound
    and rather sharp.  These are 1-1/4 frames with approx. 1/8 laminations.
    
    

    I have some questions re: laminating/bending a frame for a dinghy.
    The plans call for a single frame amidships.  This goes from gunwale
    to gunwale.  The hull is multichined and this 3/4 wide frame starts
    at the gunwale @ 3/4 deep and thickens to approximately 2 inches
    as it rounds the middle plank into the garboard.
    
    The plans suggest a laminated frame.  I only have a radial arm saw
    so I have made up laminations by ripping on this.  This is not fun!
    Radial arms do not make good ripping saws and the waste and mess
    is aggravating.  Also, the laminations (1/8" x 3/4") still are not
    as limber as I would like.  Some of them snap when you try to make
    the required bend.
    
    Is there a source for laminating lumber (precut to thickness at
    least)?  I think part of my problem is that the radial arm does
    not provide an accurate thickness and this leads to breaking.
    
    Also, would it make sense to bend this frame?  I think the thickness
    to width ratio is not good for a single bend since the curve is
    in the thick dimension.  I had thought about steam bending something
    like 4 pieces of 3/4 square stock and making a lamination out of
    this (4 layers only).  Any thoughts or hints.....
    

    I dont know of any source for 'pre-cut' laminating stock. The only
    thing close is the supply of 1/10" stock for the WEST method, but
    most of these suppliers are for spruce or cedar or similar planking
    stock, not the stuff for frames.
    
    Your dinghy frame should be a fairly simple lamination job, and
    if I understand your description of its changing dimension, laminating
    is the only way to make it. Its not uncommon to have to steam,or
    maybe soak, laminates to get them to bend sufficiently. 
    
    I think the right process is to rip them on the radial saw- and
    just accept that one half of your wood will become sawdust- then
    steam or soak them onto a jig. When dry remove them from the jig,
    apply the glue and return them to the jig.
    
    You will probably have more trouble steaming the 3/4 laminates,
    and the result will be a weaker frame.

    Re: 57.
    
     I steam bend my laminations, and then glue them together. Otherwise
    they break when you bend them.
    
     To get the strips, I went to a lumber yard, and picked out the
    stock, and told them how I wanted it cut. I got good results that
    way.
    
     Re: 56 (I think)
    
     My strips are 1/4" thick. Maybe I should try 1/8" - it would be
    easier to compress the cupping that way.
    
     I am going to steam bend whole frames for most of the ribs I am
    replacing. It's just that there is this midship rib that has a bilge
    stringer over it. In order to  unfasten the bilge stringer, I have
    to disassemble a lot of boat. So I thought I'd make a laminated
    frame. So I figured I'd try it out an one frame I'm replacing up
    forward, just to get the method down.
     
    	Any thoughts about the strength of a laminated frame with epoxy
    filled gaps?
    
    		Gregg

    Steaming question:
    
     the book I have says, when you are making the jig "....and tighten
    the curve by 25%  to allow for the fact that the wood straightens
    when you take it out of the jig."
    
     My question is: What is meant by tighten the curve by 25%?
    
    Does this mean reduce the chord of the arc by 25%?
    
    Or does it mean to reduce the distances from the inner edge of the
    frame to the chord by 25% (excepting the largest measurement).
    
    	Thanks,
    		Gregg

    I know of no qualatitive method to determine the overbend. 25% sounds
    like a lot of overbend,but I dont know what they are measuring.
    
    I suggest you bend a piece of about the size and shape you want,
    then see how much it springs back and compensate the jig accordingly.
    
    Almost all my steaming has been directly into its final resting
    place, with no reason to remove/re-install it.

Sorry this is a bit late - I've been absent.

I laminated all the frames and deck beams in the boat I'm building (plus the
backbone). First of all, the rule for bending strips of hardwood (an 
approximation which works quite well) is:

	Minimum bend radius = 100/thickness (inches).

Thus 1/8 stock will bend to a minimum radius of about 12 inches.

I would go at least 50% higher than this to avoid breakage.

My frames are all bent of 3/16 stock (ripped), and all frames have at least
seven laminations (max of nine). The springback you will get depends on how
severely they are bent, and how many laminations there are. My boat is 36'
long, 11' beam, with minimum radius about 25". My maximum springback was about
1 inch. I used my frames as form for the boat (molds), and used braces to
kill the effect of springback.

I second Ron's warnings about laminating in place. I would get the curve (by
any of various methods you will find in the books), and lay it down on a flat
platform. For my frames, I used a platform of 3/4 ply over a 2X6 frame so that
it would stay flat. I would screw blocks against the line of the curve spaced
3" to 4" apart, depending on the degree of curvature. Do NOT steam - all
laminations should bend realatively easily cold (steaming is likely to cup the
pieces and give poor results). Use generous amounts of epoxy, and clamp well.
Clean up with your planer, or a hand power plane. Allow 3/16 to 1/4 on each
edge for cleanup. Use plastic over the platform, blocks, and clamps to get decent
release.

Steaming is a LOT quicker if you have a heavy form set up, or an existing boat.
Laminations are inherently strong, and will reproduce a curve very accurately.

I've laminated out of veneer stock as well. 1/8, 1/10, 1/16 and 1/20 are
available depending on the radius.

Ross Faneuf0.

RE: .62,


Ross,

>>>	Minimum bend radius = 100/thickness (inches).
>>>
>>>  Thus 1/8 stock will bend to a minimum radius of about 12 inches.


Don't you mean:  Min. bend radius =  100 / (1/thickness-in-inches)   ?
                                       
J.

Yes, of course I do. The formula I gave was merely a test of reader intelligence.
:-).

Ross Faneuf

    re .59 and others
    
    I have a 34' by 9' cutter. It had been sistered just about 100%. 10"
    between frames. Frame ends were bad, sistered were not all that good.
    I removed the associate floor & chopped out a frame and sisters. Cut
    a 3" oak floor to bilge shape, sprung a batten to pick up natural
    curve of hull across the floor. Transfer this arc to the new floor
    and shape top of floor to match. Cut the floor to match. Then I cut
    2" oak, 9 to 12 ft lengths (whatever I can get in 2" width. I cut my
    laminates 3/8 thick. Then cut holes in deck above frame tops. I then
    coat the laminates with West & allow to dry. I force one down through
    the deck between shear clamp and planking. I put a little camfer on
    it to clear some high spots in planking. A piece of aluminum  helps it
    slide past maximum curve areas  & under bilge clamp. I then have ready
    made wedges of conduit with bolt and nut to force it out to planking
    from cabin top. Depending upon fore & aft curvature of hull I mark the
    laminate, pull it out and do some shaping to get better facing to
    planks (avoids voids). The laminate is long enough to go from shear
    clamp, curve across the shaped floor and up a few planks on the
    opposite side. I run a shorter laminate down that side. I do not
    try to lap the laminates, but butt them. If the curve is sharp, I'll
    cut a small notch in a plank, wide enough to take a small bar clamp
    and clamp to the outside of the planking. Incidentaly, I do not plane
    the laminates. The rougher the surface from the saw cut, the better the
    epoxy joint, according to West.
    
    Before I put the first laminate in, I bore a hole through the new
    shaped floor for a new keel bolt. I also make and mount two sawn
    frames to the shaped floor. Since the new laminated frame follows the
    hull curve, the garboard and next plank or two would have to fasten
    into the end grain of the floor timber. These sawn frames are long
    enough to cover these planks. Incidentaly, the after floors have to
    be three inches wide only to allow enough wood around the keel bolt 
    due to the angle  of the keel bolt to the floor. The shallower floors
    foreward need only be the width of the laminate.
    
    I manage somehow how get the first laminate in place with waxed paper
    between it and the planking. I found it took to many boat nails to
    keep the first laminate in place. So I make sure it fits and begin
    working the second one in over it. Sliding it down through the
    deck from the opposite side. Once I am satisfied with the fit, I
    pull the second one back out, dope it up liberally with west and
    a fiber filler and the same to the laminate that is already in place.
    It is a messy job. Especially when doing it by yourself. I have also
    liberally Wested the top of the floor and underside of the 1st
    ,laminate.  I get my clamps and spreader bars working and get  those
    two laminates in place as fast as I can. I use a fast cure but the
    fiber additive slows the cure enough to get everything in place. Since
    the hull was sistered, some of those fastening holes are exposed and
    with bolts and washers, I have additional places to draw the laminate
    to the frame. With a 1/8" bit I predrill the laminates and fasten them 
    with some short bronze boat nails. You can see the epoxy oose out as
    they draw the laminates up. You have to redoo some of the clamps to
    work the curve out as you move up from the floor.
    
    I keep adding laminates, alternating lengths so that the buts do not
    overlap. It does not take to many given 3/8 thickness. I figure I am
    ahead using 2" wide frames even though the originals were 1 1/4 since
    I stlll have less material than the frame and its sister. Best of all,
    I bore a hole for a through bolt all the way through the bilge
    stringer and the 2" wide frame. With a clearance hole in the plank, I
    drive a carriage bolt in to clamp the frame to the bilge stringer. The
    original way to do this was drive a screw from the bilge stringer into
    the 1" 1/4 frame, severely weakening it. It was another fastener into
    the frame, at the extreme curve in the  bilge, and entered near other
    fastenings. 
    
    Once I have built up the frame from gunnel to gunnel to the thickness
    of the original frame, the bilge stringer and shear clamp keep me from
    adding more. I add several additional laminates from the bilge
    stringer, curve over the floor and up to the other stringer. I then cut
    and shape an oak filler to the top of the curve of the laminates over
    the floor. I bore this and the laminates to keelbolt size, dope it up 
    with West and take the keel bolt home! Now I have a boat where the
    frames are keeping the planks in place!!!!
    
    I can tell you that hull has really stiffened up! The first years I 
    sailed her, the bow, midships and stern were all heading their own
    ways!  Again, what I really feel most good about is the stiffness in
    the garboards due to the sawn frames and the tying in of one continuous
    laminated frame from shear clamp to shear clamp!!  I just have a couple
    of these in. I expect to put in three more this year.
    
    Anyone care to see how this is done, contact me. The boat is at my
    home now in Holliston, Mass. (south of Framingham).
    It would be easier to use 1/8 laminates for sure...... I had 
    understood the few laminates, the better.... If anyone read down
    through this all the way, perhaps you could shed some light???
    
    Don
    
    
    

    I base laminate thickness on what is required to easily bend in, the
    number on the required thickness of the piece. I know of no magic about
    fewer layers, except that you will use less glue, and gluing up in one
    go will be less complicated (except for the cussedness of thicker
    pieces).
    
    Ross Faneuf

    At the Gloucester [MA] Folklife Festival last Saturday I watched
    an ongoing demonstration of caulking techniques by a retired yard
    worker named Spurling.  Onlookers' questions sometimes digressed
    from caulking to a variety of stuff about working on wooden boats
    in the "old" days.  
    
    "How old?" you might ask.  Someone asked if he'd done any work on the
    Adventure, a 63-yr. old Gloucester fishing schooner currently
    undergoing restoration by a non-profit group.  "Yes", he replied,
    he'd "caulked the Adventure back in '47".

    Something interesting that he mentioned was that many of the old
    schooners had the voids alongside the keel packed with rock salt
    as a preservative.  After a few years this stuff caked up solid
    and was quite a job to break out in a major refit.  I forgot to
    ask him just what was accomplished by this, but I would guess it
    might have served two purposes.  One, it drew moisture from the
    keel and kept it dry, and two, maybe, it was meant to kill of any
    organisms that might eat away at the wood.
    
    The Adventure, by the way, can be boarded in Gloucester Harbor on
    Sunday afternoons, if the tide is right, from 1-hour-before to
    1-hour-after high tide.  They are having a fund-raising dinner of
    corned beef and cabbage onboard this Thursday for $10.  Call
    (508)281-8079 if you're interested.
    

    I know that caulkers pack salt into the seam because fresh water
    promotes rot, and salt water doesn't. Why they would do this below
    the waterline I wouldn't know.
    
    	Gregg

    I am rebuilding my cockpit (34' Alden type). I have raised the forward
    end by three inches (made a bridge deck). This year I want to raise
    the sole and seats a like amount. Want to also make some improvements.
    The entire area is teak. The seats have lockers under. There is
    some attempt to drain off rain water in the space between the
    removable part of the seat and the fixed seat. Last fall, the
    removable sections froze to the fixed seat. Had to use a pry bar
    to get one opened. 
    
    So I need some specifics on how to design a new seat system that
    will keep those lockers dry. I have been looking at a variety
    of boatbuilders books, but have not seen any detail in this area.
    
    Anyone have any plans, or know of a boat I could look at that has
    sucessfully installed such seats?
    
    Don
    

RE: .67, .68.

The Gloucester fishing schooners obviously fished all year-round, and in 
wintertime the water (sea) temperature typically was 28-30 degrees F.  
With the cook's stove going below, coffee and food boiling, and the men 
below during off-watches, there was a substantial amount of condensation
on the inside of the planking, behind the ceiling.  This would trickle
into the bilge, where the rock salt would "pickle" it and prevent dryrot,
as previously suggested.  Some vessels actually packed the salt between
the frames, dropped down from near the sheer clamp in between the planking
and ceiling. 

J.

    This winter I built a 9'6" Nutshell Pram.  I'm just about done with
    the construction so it's time to start planning the finish work.
    
    I'm faced with a great expanse of bare wood (Okoume & Mahogony).
    I'll be using Deks Olje on the Mahogony but need some tips on the
    rest [most] of the boat's finish. 
    
    I'm looking for tips on subjects like using (or not using) Penetrol,
    primers, undercoats etc. and of course the finish coat.
    
    By the way, it was great fun and challenging to make this dinghy.
    I'm very pleased with the results and can't wait to get this thing
    launched to see if it performs as well as it looks.

    Quick question:
    
     I ordered some cap screws to be used to fasten the ribs to the
    floors. When I received the order, I noticed the threading went
    the entire length of the bolt. I can just imagine the threads grinding
    away at the rib and floors, as the boat works.
    
    Am I concerned about nothing? Or should I return the bolts,and get
    ones that are threaded only partially?
    
    Gregg

    I have used full threaded bolts in floor/frame and frame/plank
    situations for 10 years with no problems. Getting the correct size
    hole is important as is the material..Silly-bronze I assume. Galvi
    or iron will rust and crack the wood eventually. Ciao Ed

    
    Thanks. I'll try them. 
    
    Yes, Silly-bronze..........

    I tore out the highly illegal marine commode, this weekend. I am
    left with two thru hull fittings - the valves are still on.
    
    What I would like to do is to remove the valves/pumps all together,
    and fill the holes in the plank.
    
    My idea was to clean out the holes, epoxy in a cedar plug, and then
    add a backing plate of oak liberally smeared with caulk - kind of
    like a butt block. 
    
    Do you think I should bevel the plug a little bit, and drive in
    some cotton? Or should I keep it a tight fit and epoxy it?
    
    Or, should I leave the plumbing in? I would like to fair the hull
    again, but watertightness is of supreme concern.
    
    Gregg

    I have replaced all my original fittings, using the method you
    described. Epoxy in a plug and back it up.
    I just cant see leaving hardware in that is not needed. It is always
    a possible source of leaking, and depending upon location, could
    be a source of leverage to twist planks.
    What are you doing for a head now?
    Don

    Reading all the "composting commode" notes!
    
    Gregg

    RE: .67  "Old Salt"
    
>    At the Gloucester [MA] Folklife Festival last Saturday I watched
>    an ongoing demonstration of caulking techniques by a retired yard
>    worker named Spurling.  

    There's a story about Mr. Spurling on page 2 of today's Boston Globe.
    
    

There have been many discussions about steam bending here, and generally
there seems to be a feeling that it requires lots of special equipment.

The current issue of WOODENBOAT arrived last night, with a 4-5 page article on
bending. The best part is severtal pages of 'favorite' rigs. All manner of rig
from very complicated steam retorts, to a tea kettle on a kitchen stove, with
a PVC pipe sticking out the kitchen window to the boat.

Definately worth a look for those who wonder about steambending.

    
    I just picked up a brochure decribing the Town Class dinghy built
    by Pert, Lowell Co. in Newbury.  This is a lapstraked sailing dinghy
    planked out of eastern white pine.  White pine seems fine for trimming
    out a living room but I've never thought of it as being a particularly
    suitable boat building material.  Does anyone own a boat made of
    Pine?  How has it held up?
    
    - gene

    I currently own a 16' motor launch built by Zeke Rose of Cumberland,
    Maine (c. 1910).  White pine carvel planking over white oak frames
    w/bronze fastenings.  Still in service.

1) RE -.1, what kind of engine is in that 1910 motor launch?

2) Townies have been built since 1936 and they are all pine planked. Pine was most
common wood for dorries. Its a bit heavy compared to cedar, but a good plank
stock, IF you can get any good pine. The 'D-select' stuff form the lumber yard
is NOT good pine.

3) If you are considering buying a Townie they are a well known, fun small boat.
MESSING ABOUT IN BOATS has carried many stories about them. Ralph Johnson, Perts
son-in-law is the current builder, and Bob Hicks, publisher of MESSING ABOUT
worked part time for Ralph last year. Another DECie (probably not a reader 
of this file) Dave Simler has a special built Townie with a one cylinder Bitish
engine as a launch. Last I heard Dave was seriously trying to sell the boat.

    re -.1
    
    I've been considering getting a townie to replace the Etchells.
    If I'm going to sail slow, I may as well do it in a boat designed
    for it.  
    
    At 16 1/2 ' it meets my two criteria for a wooden boat:  It'll fit
    in my garage and I can pull it out whenever I want for maintenance.
    Although the builder makes a fiberglass version, the majority of
    local owners have wooden ones.  The idea of a lapstraked clorox
    bottle just seems philosophically unappealing.  If I do it, I'll
    go 100% natural.
    
    - gene

    I thought some folks might be interested to hear the resolution
    to the continuing saga of my ketch.  As I have mentioned in a previous
    note, I discovered after springing a garboard in a storm on the
    way to Maine in the fall of 1987 that all of the cast bronze floors
    and structural bolting in the boat was shot.  As a consequence,
    I been on dry land for 18 months now...but were ready to go back
    in the water this week!  The boat is a 47' all teak ketch which
    was built 'to Bureau Veritas AAA standards' in 1962.  She is a
    wonderful fast, stiff boat built to very heavy scantlings.  She
    has been around the world 2 1/2 times.  
    
    It turned out that the bronze used for all of the bolting and floors
    was of an inferior grade, and all of the zink had been leached out
    of the bronze through electrolosis.  This was not picked up in a
    survey or in a partial re-planking in 1985.  There were no external
    signs of problems.  We discovered the problem when we started taking
    things apart to install a new mast step (an inadequate step having
    been blamed by Giffy Full for the sprung seam).  When we removed
    one of the 4" x 3/8" cast bronze floors, we discoverd that the bolts
    were all broken and that the floor could be bent double with bare
    hands!  On further examination we discovered that this situation
    existed with every one of the 26 bronze floors and all of the stem,
    forefoot, and keel bolts (except for 3 monel keelbolts that were
    installed in '76) and horn timber bolts as well as all of the deadwood 
    drifts in the after sections of the boat.  It's a pure wonder that
    the bottom of the boat didn't fall off as there was basically nothing
    tying the keelson to the frames!
    
    We have now replaced every floor and structural bolt with 1 1/8"
    monel bolts and replaced all of the floors with new 4" x 3/8" welded
    monel webs.  In addition, we installed an 18" x 6" x 12' monel box
    frame  mast step made of 1/4" monel plate welded in place to 9 new
    monel floors which fall between the frame bays.  That ought to do
    it!
    
    I tell this tale in hopes that anyone who is considering the purchase
    of a wooden boat that was built with composite construction before
    about 1975 in either the far east or Europe will check out the
    condition of both the structural fastenings and the floors by removing
    at least one bolt.  Giffy, who is without doubt one of the best
    surveyors in the business could not tell there was a problem without
    this.  Believe me, it has been an expensive lesson for me.  Even
    with Maine yard rates, the cost of the repair came very close to
    what I paid for the boat originally.
    

    Re: an earlier note about the Wooden boat article on steamboxes....
    
    
    I sure wish it came out sooner! I can now see where a lot of my
    problems arose in steaming frames. I decided to go the laminated
    route throughout for all replacement ribs, mainly because it's
    difficult to find green white oak. I now laminate 1/4" strips,
    alternating oak and mahogany, and they are works of art.
    
     Gregg

    re: .84   Composition Bronze
    
    Your note prompted me to look up some information on bronze.
    I had never heard of 'composition bronze' so I looked in a new book,
    "Your Boat's Electrical System", and sure enough ..... another new
    thing to learn.
    
    I had always assumed bronze was bronze but this book (Fig 13-2)
    shows a 'nobility' table of metals in a chapter on electrolysis.
    It has five types of silicon Bronze as follows:
    
    
    	Silicon Bronze
    		5%Zn-20%Ni-75%Cu
    		    -10%Ni-90%u
    		    -30%Ni-70%Cu
    		2%Zn-     -88%Cu- 10%Sn        (composition G bronze)
		3%Zn-     -88%Cu-6.5%Sn-1.5%Pb (composition M bronze)

    I've edited this slightly since the composition G bronze has an
    obvious typo which makes things add up to 125% (sigh...).  Also
    this is in order from least to most noble.
    
    It goes on to say that 'composition'  types (can also be in brass)
    are really like flakes or crystals and [I guess] not true alloys.
    They actually produce electrolysis between their own flakes even
    with no other metals present.  This is  called self corrosion.
    
    Now I'm totally confused because these are all called Silicon Bronze
    in this book and some of them don't even contain silicon.  Worse
    yet the most noble are 'flakey' and probably big problems in a marine
    environment.
    
    

    By composite construction, I was not refering to the composition
    of the bronze (tho I guess you're right that even silicon bronze
    has several mixes) but rather the type of wooden construction where
    you have a wood backbone, frames (ribs) and planking coupled with
    metal floors rather than the traditional wooden floors.  This type of
    construction bagan to become popular in the late 40s and early 50s
    when people started to think it would be a good idea to use all
    of the dead space in the bilges between the cabin sole and the keelson
    for tankage and engine space.  This required the elimination of all of
    the massive wooden floors in the midsection of the boat where
    historically the floors were beefiest (?) in order to deal with the 
    weight of the ballast keel and the downward forces of the mast on 
    the step.  Very early on, Hereshoff started to reduce the sizes of 
    these floors through the use of bronze strapping on the outside of the 
    boat...as in the "S" boat.  Later, people statred designing boats with cast
    bronze or cast iron floors.  Many excellent boats including the
    designs of Fife, Colin Archer and the Concordia Yawls, sloops and
    cutters of the 40s and 50s were built this way.  As long as everything
    holds together, this is an extremely stong and practical building
    technique.  Unfortunately, many of these boats were built in the
    years just after WWII in Germany and Denmark or in the mid to late
    50s in the far east.  These boats were very well built from a
    joinerwork perspective but were manufactured to be low cost.  The
    designers and builder were not expecting that these boats would
    still be in use 40-50 years later as in those days many boats were
    expected to be replaced after only 5-10 years as design classes
    changed.  Concordias and Wm. Fife boats in particular are well known
    for having horrible problems with deterioration of floors, keelbolts
    and maststeps because of damage caused when electrolosis gets to
    the bronze keel bolts coupled with the cast iron floors.  Especially
    now when 'no one would be caught dead without an engine, a big
    generator and lots of electronics'.  I sailed for many years in
    the Buzzards Bay area where there are still many Concordias about
    and I don't know of even one boat which has not had to have its
    floors and keelbolts replaced.  (which, of course, means I should
    have known better when I bought my boat...ah well.)  As nearly as
    I can figure, the bronze floors and structural bolts in my boat
    were either made of an inferior bronze like manganese bronze or
    perhaps hardened and polished peanut butter.  They looked great, but
    boy were they useless!
                                                             

    re .86
    
    Why is it that none of the compositions for silicon bronze has any
    silicon in it?  Is silicon bronze like canned chicken soup where
    the only chicken is on the label?
    
    - gene

    Silicone bronze fasteners (including keel bolts) are 96.75% copper,
    3.25% silicone.
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

re -.1:

>>>    Silicone bronze fasteners (including keel bolts) are 96.75% copper,
>>>    3.25% silicone.
    
These remarkable new fasteners are flexible and self-bedding (no 
caulking needed) and come clear, white, and black.

Silicone is many things, but a component of bronze it is not. Silicon is 
the alloying element in bronze. 

:-)

	Note 663.90
	MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens"

	>These remarkable new fasteners are flexible and self-bedding (no 
	>caulking needed) and come clear, white, and black.

	 Huh? All of the silli-bronze wood screws I use are copper
	colored, and require plugs in the counterbore.

    	All of the sili-bronze floor bolts, and sheer clamp bolts, and
        butt block bolts are copper color - never saw the choice of "clear".

    	Gregg

    Re: .88
    
    You asked a tough question. Here is something I found in "Design of Machine
    Elements" by Faires.

"COPPER ALLOYS. Since copper is one of the oldest known metals, it has 
been the base of many alloys. Originally, the words brass and bronze,
which have been used for hundreds of years, had fairly distinct meanings:
brass being an alloy of copper and zinc; bronze being an alloy of copper 
and tin. 

However, the names have become so confused that the only safe way to 
know an alloy is to know its actual composition. Frequently copper-zinc alloys
contain some tin and copper-tin alloys contain some zinc. 

Moreover, many other alloys for copper have come/into use, notably aluminum, 
silicon, beryllium, and cadmium. The tendency is to call the newer copper 
alloys bronze, even though there is little or no tin present, as in aluminum 
bronze or silicon bronze. 

Mangenese bronze is really a high-strength brass, the improved mechanical
properties being obtained by including small amounts of aluminum, iron,
mangenese, and tin. Phosphor bronze is a bronze, but the finished product
mat only have a trace of the phospher that was added to deoxidize the melt,
a treatment that improves the mechanical properties.

Copper alloys high in zinc (over 35%; eg naval brass) cannot take the extreme
cold working because they become excessively brittle"

Uses:

"Aluminum bronze: corrosion-resistant parts; marine pumps, shafts, valves;
                  parts where high strength, toughness, wearabilty, low coeff.
                  of friction, and damping are required.

 Silicon bronze: hydraulic pressure lines, hardware, bolts, nuts, rivets...

 Naval brass: condenser plates, marine hardware, propeller shafts, piston rods,
              .... nuts, bolts, rivets...."
 

   From all of this, it looks like silicon bronze is not the best for marine
use. Aluminum bronze looks best for high loads and corrosion resistance.

-Paul 

    Re: .90
    
     My apologies, Alan, I have been shown the error of my ways.......
    
     How could I have been so wrong about such important fittings? :^)
    :^)
    
    
    Gregg

    I have an offset prop.  The shaft tube comes through the hull via
    a pair of timbers that sandwich the hull (1" teak plank).   I spent
    most of last weekend getting the shaft out and apparently am the
    first to accomplish this in several decades.
    
    Anyway, since it hasn't been out for awhile it appears that the
    timber fairing on the outside of the hull (anyone know the name
    of this?) has been a perennial victim of bandaid repairs.  I am
    going to scarf new wood onto the end of this fairing as it is
    damaged by poorly fitted and fastened cutlass bearing.  I have three
    questions regarding this repair.
    
    First, the original design appears to require wood screws through
    the flange of the cutlass bearing and into the fairing.  This requires 
    screwing into end grain of the fairing...... not very reliable.   Does 
    any one have thoughts on curing this?
    
    Second,  I'm sure that what I've taken apart is not totally original.
    In particular the cutlass bearing and the stuffing flange on the
    opposite end of the shaft tube were both seated on ugly gaskets
    crusted with 50 years of every caulking known to man.  Are the gaskets
    required for vibration damping or are they bandaids?
    
    Lastly, any thoughts on the correct sequence for reassembling this
    mess?   I suspect that this is a critical procedure to get right.
    It requires tightening two threaded flanges to 'squeeze' the timbers
    with everything lining up in a reasonable position at the correct
    pressure.
    
    Thanks in advance.  I really want to get this hole closed up right,
    and soon!

    I have a question on sealants/caulks used on oily woods (teak).
    In reading the 'Lifecaulk' brand instructions it says no primer
    is required except on oily woods like teak.   Unfortunately,
    everyone sells Lifecaulk and nobody sells the primer.
    
    My question is around suitable substitutes for this stuff.  Is this
    simply a good undercoat type of primer?   Since it must seal in
    the wood oils it seems any quality primer or sanding sealer should
    work.
    
    By the way, my (used and very old)boat appears to have had lots
    of this sealant used without following this particular instruction!
    I can testify to the label warning being accurate.  Everywhere this
    has happened I can pull the old sealer off with my fingers.  It
    isn't showing very much adhesion to the wood except where the surface
    was severly damaged (large cracks, groves etc.).   
    
    

I've become rather disenchanted with Boatlife Lifecaulk. I've tried it
with primer and without. After a while is comes unstuck either way. I'm
now using Sikaflex 241 (sealant/bedding/adhesive) or Sikaflex 231
(sealant/bedding) as appropriate. When used on deck Lifecaulk tends to
discolor, turning brown. Sikaflex doesn't seem to do this. 

    Any of the one or two part polysulfides will work on teak if the
    surface is properly prepared first.  My personal preference for
    a sealer for below the waterline is 3M 5200.  I find that regular
    marine bedding compound works best for sealing (bedding) things
    like stantions and the like.  3M also makes a good 2 part poly for
    sealing the seams in teak decks.
    
    To prepare teak, thhe key is to leach the oils out of the first
    layers of wood fibers.  Rough up the surface with a course sandpaper
    (only where the sealer goes).  Then scrub the area with high gloss
    lacquer thinner and a toothbrush.  When the thinner has dried (very
    quick---this stuff is extremely volatile) apply the sealer per the
    package instructions.  It will stick perfectly.

Another vote for Sikaflex over Boatlife. I used lots of Lifecaulk when I re-built
my Folkboat, and had mixed results with it- I sold the boat several years ago, 
still wonder how that stuff held up. The last 3-4 boats Ive built have been
Sika all the way.

Shew & Burnham are good friends of mine and they much prefer 3m 5200,mostly
because of its extended open time- it will lay on a surface most of the day and
still be workable- Sika starts to cure in a matter of a couple hours.

For your shaft log, Id use Sika, since you may someday want to get it apart
again- I understand the 3M5200 is almost impossible to ever remove. From the 
description (damn, when will we get graphics in Notes?) i think the gaskets
are as suspected just years worth of attempts to stop leaks, they have no use
as vibration dampeners.

    I have a Susan skiff built at the Bath ApprenticeShop.  After laying up
    under a tarp for the winter, the bottom seams opened slightly.  My plan
    for painting is to put the boat in the water until she swells up, take
    her out for 24 hours or so to surface dry, paint her, then back in the
    water.  Is this correct?
    				J

RE: .99,

>>>  My plan for painting is to put the boat in the water until she 
>>>  swells up, take her out for 24 hours or so to surface dry, paint her, 
>>>  then back in the water.  Is this correct? 

I can't say your method wouldn't work fine, but my grandfather kept an 
Amesbury skiff (cross-planked, like the Susan skiff) in great condition
for 20 years of my life (and some few before that) by painting it first,
then setting her out on the marsh for a week.   The tide twice each day,
plus wet grass underneath, swelled her right up despite the new layer of
red copper paint, while saving the added extra step of hauling and drying.

J.

    In the process of reframing, I have noticed that many planks were
    overfastened. Some previous owner drove in more screws instead of
    replacing the framse. Now that I am replacing the frame, I will
    use only the original holes.
    
     The question is what to do about the extra holes? I can think of
    two alternatives:
    
     1) epoxy in a hardwood dowel of as close a diameter as I can. While
    the swelling/shrinking rate will not be the same as if it were a
    cedar (my boat is planked in cedar) dowel, it's so small that it
    shouldn't matter (approx 1/8 - 3/16" diameter). Then I would fill
    the countersink with 3M5200.
    
    2) Option 2 is to entirely fill the hole with 3M5200.
    
    Also, there are a few spots where the guy put three screws so close
    to each other, that they made one large roughly triangular hole.
    I was thinking of drilling it out smooth, and plugging with cedar
    - any thoughts?
    
    Gregg

I would NOT use a hardwood dowel- the end grain would be impossible to sand close
to the surface, and likely the holes arent really round so the fit would be poor.

I would simply fill them entirely with epoxy, thickend witha filler- I would 
probably use WEST and microballoons, since I usually have some on hand.

I dont think 3M5200 is right for this application. Its for bedding and sealing

    I presently have a canvas deck on my sloop, which I intend to replace
    next year. The deck is made out of plywood, which is in excellent
    shape.
    
    I am wondering if I should put down a new canvas deck, or if there
    is a better idea with today's technology.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Gregg 

    Hi Everyone,
    
    My name is Andy Crosby and I just found this note.  I find the entire
    discussion very interesting, epecially since I come from the
    boatbuilding Crosby family on the Cape.  One thing that I have always
    found amazing is that my Grandfather, Great Grandfather and so-on
    never used plans, they built by the eye--an amazing talent to see
    the boat as it develops.  
    
    I was interested to hear the comments about the Wianno Seniors and 
    remember the fun I had aboard them, racing in them at Wianno Yacht
    Club.  I also was a fan of the Wianno Junior and the Stripers.
    
    However of the boats built by my family, I have a real affinity
    for the catboats.  Those are beautiful crafts.  My father owns a
    wooden cat that was built at Crosby Yacht Building and Storage in
    1935.  It was partially built by my grandfather, who joined Crosby
    Yacht after he lost his own yard in the Depression (if he hadn't,
    I'ld be there now).  Unfortunately my father is looking to sell
    it since he just retired and really needs something easier to keep.
    If I had the money...
    
    I've just started Westlawn's Yacht Design course and hope to finish
    in about three years or so.  After that, we'll have to see what
    happens.   I would like to get some experience in building boats
    since I did not get the opportunity to learn from my grandfather.
    
    I'm also a member of the Catboat Association and was wondering if
    there were other Association members out there or if there were
    Catboat owners who might be interested in joining. 
    
    Anyway now that I've found this note, I'll keep looking in to see
    what new things I can learn.
    
    Andy Crosby

    Heavy Sigh......
    
     Much as I would like to ignore it, there is some "weeping" at the
    interface of the lead keel, and the deadwood. With the last couple
    of heavy storms we've had, there was some water in the bilge. I
    pumped it out, but it was there a day.
    
     So now, the big question is:
    
     Do I have to remove the keel bolts, inspect them, and replace if
    necessary?

     THIS is a job I am NOT looking forwad to. My S-boat has both
    keelbolts, and metal straps screwed to both the lead, and the deadwood.
    
    	There are no other water marks inthe deadwood. 
    
	Any fond experiences concerning this effort would be greatly
    appreciated.

    
    	Gregg

    Well, good news - I guess. The keelbolts are made of bronze, so
    whatever I'm seeing is not iron rusting.
    
     Have another question. I have a canvas covered deck. In the Starboard,
    aft, corner, it has ripped, so I need to mend it. Any suggestions
    on mending a piece (approx 2 square feet) of deck canvas? How do
    you seal the interface between old and new?
    
     Also, next season I will replace the entire deck canvas. There
    seem to be no seams in it at all, so Herreschoff must have used
    a roll of canvas at least 7.5 feet wide. 
    
     Any ideas where I can get canvas this wide (and 29 feet long)?
    
    	Thanks,
    
    		Gregg

    I restored a small wooden boat that had a rotted canvas deck. I choose
    to fiberglass it, probably less work in the long run than canvas.
    
    My boat was not a classic and fiberglass work is more forgiving than
    laying canvas, so my choice was easy. You'll have to decide how authentic 
    you want the boat to remain.
    
    -Paul

    You can get deck canvas in widths at least up to 12' through any of the
    sail makers in your area.  To make your patch, get some Interlux canvas
    cement from a marine store.  Using a spatula or similar tool, lift the
    canvas from the deck to about 4" on either side of the tear.  Fit a
    patch such that it will overlap the tear by 3-3.5" in all directions. 
    After cleaning under the lifted deck canvas, apply cement under the old
    canvas to the edges of the lifted area.  Fit the patch under the lifted
    canvas.  Apply additional cement over the patch.  Roll down the old
    canvas over entire area with a wallpaper edge roller.  Allow patch to
    dry.  Feather the canvas edge where the tear is with sandpaper.  Paint
    the entire effected area with canvas deck paint starting with a very
    dilute (10-15%) paint (dilute with turps) and working up through 3-4
    coats to a 50% dilution.  That's it!

If the deck is plywood (not likely onb a Herreshoff) then fiberglass over it 
is OK- Concordia yawls are built this way. If the deck is planked then no way
will fiberglass over it ever stick well- the seams will eventually break
the glass, and then you will have a HUGE mess to repair.

But why would anyone even consider covering their deck with  frozen snot?

    Re: .109
    
     ron,
    
    	As a matter of fact, the deck is plywood. Herreshoff switched
    to plywood decks on the S-boats around 1930 (first example of the
    class was built in 1919).
    
     	I have been considering glassing it but I have a visceral objection
    to that sort of thing on my wooden boat. Also, I was told that canvas
    decks (if laid properly) are hard to beat for footing.
    
    Gregg

    Re. 109
    
    The deck I fiberglassed was planked with cedar. I filled the seams and
    screw holes with an epoxy filler and sanded smooth. I then laid down
    one layer of cloth followed by several coats of resin to acheive a smooth
    finish. Being happy with the results and tired, I skipped the gel-coat.
    
    This was a 15' foot boat that I constantly pushed to the limit in heavy
    winds, so the deck received a lot of strain. Being fully planked, it
    leaked alot on the mooring and swamped several times. I can't imagine
    how to induce more swelling than that.
    
    I sailed the boat for six years after the new deck and still own the
    boat, now 14 yrs later. There is not a single crack in the deck.
    
    So by all means keep your boat classic and stick with canvas. But if
    you're considering fiberglass, it can be done right with no cracking.
    
    -Paul 

    I think the material of choice today would not be fiberglass, but
    DYNEL.   I have a friend who used that material over pine decks and
    it looks great. Has it's own built in anti slip surface. One of the
    key points of putting fiberglass or Dynel on a wooden deck today is
    not to use the fiberglass resins, but to use epoxy based resins, such
    as West or System 3. I'm not an expert on the property of the
    fiberglass resins as opposed to the Epoxy resins. I did speak to
    the West folk at last years Wooden Boat show in Newport. Their
    comments were that the fiberglass resins are not a real adhesive. You
    are very apt to get lifting. I can attest to that on "Hope". In fact
    this weekend I'm going to make some punctures in those lifted areas
    and dub in some West and glue them back down...
    
    Don

RE: Dynel,

I believe Dynel is a version of polypropylene, the waxy plastic they make 
ski towropes from.  PUFFIN was covered in Dynel rather than fiberglass, 
since the strength of f.g wasn't needed (Dynel has considerably less
tensile strength), but polypropylene is much more abrasion resistant. 
Perhaps on a deck, Dynel makes particular sense; it may also 'give' more
than 'glass. 

Another plus:  polypropylene bonds especially well with epoxy (better than 
glass), though poorly with polyester resins. 

J.

    Almost time to caulk ship, and I have a question. Some of the planks
    are quite dry, and the elastomeric has separated from one of the plank
    edges. Once the boat takes up, there will be no gap, but I am wondering
    if I should:
    
    1) Do nothing, and let the plank compression keep the seal tight,
    
    2) put a small amount of elastomeric in the gap, and let the plank
    compression squeeze out any extra, or
    
    3) reeve the old elastomeric out, and put in new. 
    
     The cotton is in fine shape.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    		Gregg

    The Wooden Boat Show is to be held in Mystic, CT, on June 28-30, 1996.
    Hours are 9-6. Phone number: 800-273-7447. I believe that adult
    admission is $17.50.

    re .115

>   admission is $17.50.

    We should note that this includes admission to Mystic Seaport.
    Admission for members of Mystic Seaport is $7.50.

    - Bob