Conference thebay::joyoflex

    The word pukka is of Hindi origin, and it means genuine or authentic.
    It can also mean superior.
    
    There is another word, pooka/phooka/phouka, with which pukka is often
    confused.  A phouka (pronounced "pooka") is a malignant spirit in
    Celtic folklore; phoukas are usually invisible.  The rabbit in the
    James Stewart film "Harvey" was a phouka, and phoukas are often used in
    fantasy novels.
    
    -dick

    Ahhh!   Are you telling me that that 6-foot white rabbit isn't real?

Hindi, yes. A lot of words used widely in current English were picked
up from British imperial connections in India - other examples
`bungalow' `wallah', even `mem sahib' (some might think an expression
like that is not naturalized at all, but I've heard English people
who'd never been to India, still less to India in the days of the BE,
saying `the mem sahib' to refer to their wife).

b

    I thought "wallah" was a perversion of French.	:-)

    As in Punkah wallah, I think (the chap who wafts the leaves to cool the
    room down). I also believe that's where the term "Wally" came from, as
    in a derogatory reference to someone who is beneath contempt.
    
    Ray

    G'day,
    
     And also from the days of the Raj...
    
    Char Wallah  (tea boy)
    
    Dhobi Wallah ( laundry boy also doing ones dobeying - doing one's washing)
    
    
    Khaki   (the colour from the word meaning dusty.  also khaki nappy -
    		what young babies leave...)
    
    djw
    

    
    ... and not to forget the curry [Hindi "karri" = mixture].
    
    Originally, the "-vala" is a Hindi suffix representing a "nomen agens"
    ("doing name"), thus describing a performance, but also a quality:
    
    - chay-vala        "(somebody who is) offering the tea"
    - daba-vala        "(somebody who is) bringing the lunch"
    - nil-vala         "(somebody/-thing) being blue" 
                        [occasional cognomen of Krishna]
    
    Richard, my old leprechaun,
    
    Another so-far enigma seems to be heading to a solution:  Your "pouka"
    contribution reminded me of a strain in James Joyce's "Ulysses", about
    a waterfall murmuring "poula-phouca, poula-phouca, ..." -- So, what
    about that?!
    
    Regards from Vienna,
       VV V V :-]
    

Also, when you see a silent `h', suspect the Raj. Examples - jodphur, gymkhana.

    
    Careful -- that's "Jodhpur"
                         ^^^
    "-pur" is always indicating a city, from "p�ram" = "city",
    cf. Mah�balip�ram and K�nchip�ram (close to Madras, Tamil Nadu),
    Udaipur and Hindupur (as far as I remember that's in Maharashtra), 
    and so many other -purams, -purs, and -pores [like Singapore = 
    "Lion City"], situated in East India.
    
    Namaskar�m, Walter :-) five weeks in India, 1984

    Dhobi Ghillis?

Thanks for the correction (.9). I was thinking last night, trying to narrow down
my general point about silent h; `silent h after a stop consonant' perhaps. But 
then there's `Delhi', and probably lots of other counter-examples. I think the 
only general point to make is that Hindi (and Urdu and Gujarati and all the 
other languages spoken on the sub-continent) have many more consonants than most 
western languages, so transcription systems have to make up new ones by adding 
`h' here and there.

b

    re: dh, bh, etc. in Hindi words transliterated into
        English
    
    Bh, dh and gh are all post-aspirated voiced stops,
    a combination which doesn't occur in English as a
    significant sound (phoneme), but can occur as an
    alternate version (allophone):
    
    "T" in "stop" is a non-aspirated voiceless stop;
    "t" in "top" is a post-aspirated voiceless stop;
    "d" in "dop" is a post-aspirated voiced stop;
    "d" in "zdop" is a non-aspirated voiced stop.
    
    While "dop" may be an English word, "zdop" isn't.
    
    I don't know what the standard transcription into
    English is for the retroflex consonants (are they
    only found in Dravidian languages?).
    
    	-John Bishop

re .5:

>               I also believe that's where the term "Wally" came from, as
>   in a derogatory reference to someone who is beneath contempt.

I thought it came from "Leave It To Beaver."

    
    Not only in Dr�vida languages, but also in Hindi which is "the" Indo-
    Aryan language.  Here's the complete (consonants only) N�gari alphabet
    to write it:
    
	hard, non-aspirated
	!	hard, aspirated
	!	!	soft, non-aspirated
	!	!	!	soft, aspirated
	!	!	!	!	related nasal
        !       !       !       !       !
        v       v       v       v       v

	K	KH	G	GH	NG	gutturals

	C	CH	J	JH	NY	dental sibilants
						[C := tsh, J := dsh]
	T,	T,H	D,	D,H	N,	dental retroflexes

	T	TH	D	DH	N	dentals "as usual"

	P	PH	B	BH	M	bilabial plosives
	-------------------------------------------------------------------
	Y	R	L	V		palatal, liquids, fricative

	S'	S,	S	H		sibilants [S' := s/sh comb.,
						S, = retroflex]; aspirant
	R,					"half-consonant": 
						R with short I or U,
						as in Rig-Veda, Krishna
	                                              ^^         ^^

	There are several ways to represent retroflexes (plus "ri/ru")

	You can use elongated (below script line) "t" and "d", or -- 
	as I did -- append a comma.  Or, place a dot under the respective
	letter.  These are transcriptions I already have seen in different
    	publications.

	Hope I could help,
		Walter :-)
    

    John Bishop's other name is Professor Higgins.

    
    re: .12
    
    No, retroflex consonants are found in other parts of the world as well.
    We have at least one of them in Norway.  It is called the "thick" l,
    and occurs in quite a few dialects, among these most of the dialects in
    the Oslo region.  This sound is the same as the retroflex r in the
    Dravidian languages.
    
    Elizabeth

RE: .14 A year late:

Isn't "V" a dento-labial rather than a palatal, liquid or fricative?

Wook

    I think the term used is/was (at least in American phonetics texts of the
    '70s) "labiodental."
    
    And were this SoapBox, I might deliver myself of a line like "All this
    talk
    
    "
    but it ain't so I damn well better not.  :-)
    

    Re .17
    
    �Isn't "V" a dento-labial rather than a palatal, liquid or fricative?
    
    Not `rather than'; both. Labio-dental is the point of articulation;
    fricative is the means. English V is a voiced labio-dental fricative;
    English F is a voiceless labiodental fricative. 
    
    bilabial voiced stop

>    �Isn't "V" a dento-labial rather than a palatal, liquid or fricative?
>    
>    Not `rather than'; both. Labio-dental is the point of articulation;
>    fricative is the means.

The question, rephrased, is "Isn't 'V' a dento-labial liquid or fricative
rather than a palatal liquid or fricative?"  The answer (more or less) is "yes."

    RE: .5 & .13
    
    Wally as a term of contempt suggesting stupidity came I believe from
    a Rock Concert in the UK - Woodstock near Oxford. For those who follow
    such things the event has some kind of special significance. 
    
    During the concert a public address announcement was made stating that
    if Wally cared to make himself known he could re-claim his trousers!
    
    Several thousand people left Woodstock with a new word in their
    vocabulary which has become accepted to mean a person missing not
    necessarily their trousers but some mental capacity either temporarily
    or permanently.
    
    This story has been confirmed to me by a person who actually heard the
    announcement.  As my middle name is Walter I would much rather this
    contemptuous term were oficially banned - Wallys are people too!
    
    With respect to Pukka - I'm of the belief its origin is from the sub-
    continent of India and came into English through the British colonial
    rule etc. My Grandmother (from a military family) would use such words
    a pukka (kosher) and jildi (hurry-up) and in consequence these were
    common parlance in my childhood. I seldom use jildi but pukka is a
    pukka word in my own vocabulary. In the British military they still use
    the term 'mufti' to mean plain, as opposed to uniform, clothes although
    'civvies' meaning civillian is a more common expression.
    
    Bucko...
    

    Did Wally leave his trousers in the john?

    re .-1
    
    Is someone making fun of my previous nom-de-notes?
    

    Which was?  (pardon my lapsus menti)
    
    That not said, and "knowing" Norman, I should not be a bit surprised...:-)
    

    Lapsus mentis, Dan, not lapsus menti.  Anybody who could admit noting
    from a FENESTRAE system...

re .24  "set noon"

    ... the decline of Rome was caused by declension.  Or at least the
    decline in MY Latin grades was!  
    
    This is one trick concerning which I will gladly claim "canis antiquus
    status."  Seein' as how I never mastered it while a young'un.
    
    :-)
    

    G'day,
    
    Re-.a_few...
    
    My grandmother was born in India - presumably being an offspring of the
    Raj... certainly there is a military history on this side of the family
    - and so words like Pukka , wallah (as in punkah wallah and dhobi
    wallah ) and (my favourite) Khaki were part of my vocabulary. She always
    pronounced that kakky and it was almost always associated with nappies
    for some reason....
    
    
    derek
    

    I thought "wallah" belonged in the Fractured French note.