Conference thebay::joyoflex

    I remember someone giving the example from Strunk and White's _The
    Elements of Style_:
    
    	_That_ is the defining, or restrictive, pronoun, _which_ the
    	nondefining, or nonrestrictive.
    
    		The lawn mower that is broken is in the garage.  (tells
    		which one)
    
    		The lawn mower, which is broken, is in the garage. (adds
    		a fact about the only mower in question)
    
    Bernie
          

    We discussed the matter in note 175. But that was in April 86,
    so perhaps not what you're looking for.
    
    	roger

    Perhaps it was in the JOKUR::GRAMMAR conference, though I've not
    looked in there for a long while.
    
    Jeff
    

    I found note 175, but I remember this as being much more recent
    and more comprehensive than any one reply to 175.
    
    Re:  GRAMMAR.NOT, I thought of that too, but I haven't frequented
    that conference lately either.
    
    Thanks anyway.  
    
    Susan

    What about the two together, "that which"?
    
    Dan

    Perfectly legitimate in my book -- and if you can find out a way to
    explain the difference between "that" and "which" in a phrase such as
    "activities such as that which I enjoy," you'll go a long way to
    defining the difference between "that" and "which" in a meaningful way. 
    
    "That that I enjoy" just doesn't mean the same thing.
    
    --bonnie 

    Re .5 (Dan), .6 (Bonnie):
    
    >What about the two together, "that which"?
                            
    Most usage guides I've come across indicate that "that which" used
    definitionally is considered restrictively, to remove the awkward
    "that that" that would be the alternative.  However, that is the
    exception.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re .5
    
    I see no problem: in `that that' the two words are even pronounced
    differently [thaht versus thuht], so `that that', like the Roundheads,
    is Right but Repulsive; I'd paraphrase - `the one that' or `the x
    that'. 

    An example:
    
    	Tom used the same knife as [that|the one] that Harry used
b
    
    

Is there any such word as "thats" (no apostrophe) in English ?  The
sort of meaning I'm looking for is similar to "his", "hers", "its",
"their".  Would "thats" go in this list ?  Can someone give a valid
sentence ?

/Eric

    I am not aware of a "thats". It seems redundant because "its" seems
    to do the job. Maybe it exists in some obscure English dialects
    ...

    re: .9
    
    I have seeen 'thats' in the sense you cite.  I suspect it hasn't
    been used since the 17th century, however -- I will do some
    research to see what I can come up with. 
    
    --bonnie

    I've just worked out why I put that example in reply .8; at the
    time, it seemed important - but I couldn't explain to myself (having
    thought of the example) what I was trying to elucidate with it.
    
    Now I think I know, so here it is again:
    
    		Tom used the same knife as that that Harry used
    
    The second `that' is a plain old relative pronoun with the antecedent
    `knife'. The first `that' doesn't have an antecedent; it refers
    _forwards_ to `[the knife] that Harry used'.
    
    But I'd still avoid `that that'. I'd avoid `that which' too. It
    doesn't bother me when people use it (as someone - Steve? - said,
    it's acceptable in some books), but I'm suspicious of exceptions;
    they're a foot in the door for all sorts of shenanigans.
    
    Re .9
    
    I've never met the word `thats', except maybe in dialects. But,
    incidentally, I use the analogy of `his' to make sure that I've spelt
    `its' right. 
    
    b

    Why not just write:
    
    		Tom used the same knife that Harry used
    or
    
    		Tom used the same knife Harry used
    
    I feel that one tend to use too many "thats" as this could be written
    as 
    
    		I feel one tend to use too many "thats" 
                
    ~t~
    

    Aha, but in
    
    	I feel that one tend[s] to use too many "thats" 
    
    the first `that' isn't a pronoun at all; it's a conjuction
    (and if you feel [that] the two clauses [that] it joins are obviously 
    enough related, there's no harm in dropping it - it's up to you.
    
    ;-)

    re -1   I'll do just THAT :^0
    
    Which That? That That or That Which? :-)

    Re -1 
    
    That that or that which,
    That is the question.
    
    ~t~

    re: .16
    
    You do that that you wish to do, and I'll do that which I have
    to do.
    
    --bonnie

    RE: .18
    
    
    >  You do that that you wish to do, and I'll do that which I have
    >  to do.
    
    
    In _which_ case, I hope _that_ everything comes out all right.

    Re .19 (Roy):
    
    >In _which_ case, I hope _that_ everything comes out all right.

    Best whiches, Roy. :-)
    
    I dredge this up from the dim, distant, and dank past:
    
    That that it is that that is not is not is not that that is not
    not that that is?
    
    Punctuate correctly (answer after <ff>)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    That that is, is; that that is not, is not; is not that that is
    not _not_ that that is?

    re: .18
    
    > ....I'll do that which I have to do. 
    
    And I will do what I have to do, because 
                  ^^^
    you wouldn't say: "A man's gotta do that which a man's gotta do!"
                                    
    That would be pure Tha(c)tcherism as the British would say.
    
    Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)
                             
    ~t~

    re: .21
    
    Well, no I wouldn't say that, because it mixes levels of diction.
    
    But grammatically it still scans.
    
    --bonnie

    G'day,
    
    "That key you have; does it belong to this door or that?"
    "It's thats" 
    "No. It can't be thats key; for it's in the keyhole."
    "That's thats duplicate."
    "That that and that could be the same... That's a miracle!"
    
    Derek