Conference thebay::joyoflex

    The British
    
    Phillip

  Re: .1

  Any objection to "Briton" or its plural?
 
  JP

    "Briton" is OK, but has faintly jingoistic overtones, as in "Rule
    Britannia".
    
    "Brits" if you must - preferably only as a plural. One thing's for
    sure, either of these is better than "Limey" - yuck!
    
    Do you really not mind being called "Yanks"? I guess most of my
    compatriots would think twice about using the word in the company
    of an American, particularly a stranger.
    
    -- brian

    The use of the word "Yanks" or "Yankees"  must be taken in context.
    
    Like many Americans (meaning US citizens, not inhabitants of the
    Western Hemisphere generally), I find the use of the term Yank,
    as in "You Yanks are a ... lot." used by citizens of other
    English-speaking countries has a kind of friendly connotation.
    
    Not so the usage "Yankee go home!" when scrawled on US embassy walls
    in non English-speaking countries.
    
    But consider this: 
    
    To the world, a Yankee is a citizen of the USA
    
    To a US southerner, a Yankee is someone who lives north of the
    Mason-Dixon line 
    
    To someone who lives north of that line and east of the Mississippi, a
    Yankee is someone who lives in New England 
    
    To a New Englander, a Yankee is someone comes from Maine, New
    Hampshire, or Vermont
    
    To a resident of one of those threes states, a Yankee is someone who
    comes from a rural area and talks funny 
                 
    [My thanks to TV personality Fritz Whetherbee for this explanation.]

    Re .5:
    
>>       To a US southerner, a Yankee is someone who lives north of the
>>       Mason-Dixon line 
    
    One northerner [not me] who moved down south was told that the
    difference between a "Yankee" and a "damn Yankee" was that a Yankee
    was a visitor from up north but a damn Yankee intended to stay.
    
    I don't think that whoever said that would like being called a
    Yank.
    
    The proper word for someone from another country is "ferner"! (-:

    Ten years ago, none of the British would have thought twice about
    being called a 'Brit'.  But now the word is used by certain factions
    across the Irish Sea as a pejorative term.  Hence the sensitivity.
    
    Jeff.

    Re .5
    
    To some people, a Yankee is a member of a New York, American League
    baseball team (pitueee).
    
    Spd - A White Sox Fan

My father, who grew up in Virginia, claims he was 12 years old before he 
learned that "damn Yankee" is two words.

I'm a U.S. native, and currently a resident of New England.  I don't mind
being called a "Yank".

The British people I know seem to enjoy being called "Limeys", or at least 
they pretend to do so.  Is that apellation as objectionable as .something 
indicates?

    re:.0 "silly Brits"
    
    Perhaps it was the "silly" part they didn't like. :-)
    
    re:.7
    
    It obviously hasn't caught on with everybody, as not too long
    ago (6-12 months), I was dubbed by one UK noter "an honorary
    Brit" (for demonstrating certain knowledge about things British).
    While it's possible he was subtly insulting me, I doubt it.
    
    --- jerry

    Do the Scots and Welsh agree with being included in the _British_
    or do they just differentiate from the English?
    
    In Canada we refer to our friends south of the border as Murcans,
    would that be acceptable?
    
    

    I read somewhere about a sort of inverted snobbery practised by
    elites - using about themselves (and their doings) terms that
    they objected to when `outsiders' used them.  So a member of
    a symphony orchestra will call it a band, and doesn't mind other
    musicians asking "which band are you with?", but when the likes
    of us refer to the RPO as `a band' we are being either ignorant
    or pretentious. Similarly, in British English, it's OK to call
    a violin a fiddle - as long as you play one; or British archaeologists
    calling a sherd a sherd (pronounced `sherd'), when the ignorant
    say `sherd' (as in clahk).
    
    I wonder if this is related. A Briton might think it OK to
    refer to himself as `a Brit', but resent it coming from a
    furriner.

    Personally, I don't think much of the term `Brit', and don't use it;
    but you can't expect people to speak proper in a notesfile. 

    
    Bob

>    In Canada we refer to our friends south of the border as Murcans,
>    would that be acceptable?
    
Better "Murcans" than "Merkins" I figure. ;-)

					>>>==>PStJTT

    The non-English British resent people, and it's especially the English
    who do it, refering to Britain as England, and to the British as
    the English - it's internal Imperialism, I suppose. I, English,
    resent English sports fans using the Union Jack when they should
    be waving the St George's Cross.
    
    Do the Irish, who often refer to us as Brits, consider themselves
    Irs (should it be Ers?), or are they just being derogatory? Rene
    Aungier, star of CELT and EURO-FORUM, seems to have lost the -ish
    key on his keyboard (Thanks Jeff!)
    
    Phillip

    G'day from Downunder,
    Well at least Brit is marginally preferable to 'Limey' (yeuckkkkk)(sp??)
    and here 'Pom' is a lot better than 'Pommy Bastard' unless said
    with obvious friendliness and admiration - which doesn't occur often,
    I may add.
    
    I too am English , would like to see the Cross of St. George more
    often.
    
    If we must be called something for short, then I suppose Britts
    it is (2 't' s :-) ).   
    
    Perhaps we should start a new name - YewKayans ?
    
    Derek_who_lives_in_OZ_'cos_it's_nice_and_warm_an'_sunny_an'
    ... 

  Re: .9:

  >My father, who grew up in Virginia, claims he was 12 years old before he 
  >learned that "damn Yankee" is two words.

  I've heard this one pretty often.  The best retort I've heard is, "That's
  OK.  Until I was 25, I always thought Robert E. Lee was a steamboat."

  JP

>    To the world, a Yankee is a citizen of the USA
>    
>    To a US southerner, a Yankee is someone who lives north of the
>    Mason-Dixon line 
>    
>    To someone who lives north of that line and east of the Mississippi, a
>    Yankee is someone who lives in New England 
>    
>    To a New Englander, a Yankee is someone comes from Maine, New
>    Hampshire, or Vermont
>    
>    To a resident of one of those threes states, a Yankee is someone who
>    comes from a rural area and talks funny 

    
    	To a person from a rural area that talks funny, a Yankee is
    	what you sneeze in.
    
    
    
    truly sorry

    Here's another Yank who doesn't mind being called a Yank. In fact, I
    think I prefer it to "American." The latter sort of implies that
    the U.S. is the only country on two continents.
    
    	Jon 

>                                 The latter sort of implies that
>    the U.S. is the only country on two continents.


Americans are rapidly becoming the world's leading appologists.  If you 
come from the United States of America, what's wrong with calling 
yourself American?  People from the Federal Republic of Mexico are 
called Mexicans.  People from the People's Republic of China are called 
Chinese.  Would you prefer "Unitarian?"  How about "Statsian?"

Is there another country on the two continents that has "America" in 
their names in a place where it would make sense to call them Americans?

When you're identifying your NATIONALITY, do you think people will get 
confused when you say "American" and think you are identifying the 
hemisphere you come from?

				>>>==>PStJTT

    Re .19
    
    Not Statsian - the full name of what we English-spekers call Brazil
    is Os Estados Unidos de(o?) Brasil (the United States of Brazil).
    
    b

    re: .19
    
    I don't mind being called a Unitarian, because I am one, but that
    has nothing to do with where I live
    :-)
    
    -Jody
    

    re .19:
    
    Oh, come on! Who's getting sensitive? My answer to the question, "where
    are you from?" is, "The States." What's so timmyish about that? Perhaps
    I should slouch, put on my best drawl and say "Ahmamerkin"? There's
    nothing *wrong* with "American," just as there's nothing wrong with
    "Briton." But they both have just a bit of a jingoist tinge to them. 
    
    The point of this is that it doesn't bother me in the least, in spite
    of my having grown up in the South, in being called a "Yank." In fact,
    I rather like it. It's a nice, short handle. 
    
    	Jon

    Re .18, .19:
    
>>                                 The latter sort of implies that
>>    the U.S. is the only country on two continents.
>
>
>Americans are rapidly becoming the world's leading appologists.  If you 
>come from the United States of America, what's wrong with calling 
>yourself American?  People from the Federal Republic of Mexico are 
>called Mexicans. ... 
 
    Nah, it's not that.  I became sensitized to this decades ago when
    I studied Spanish.  "America," unlike the other examples mentioned
    in .19, is the name of the continent (China and Mexico are countries
    on Asia and North America, respectively).  There's a good case to
    be made that anyone living from Canada to Tierra Del Fuego can
    legitinately call him/herself "American."
    
    One Spanish term is "Norteamerocano" ("North American", which isn't
    much better.  Then there's "Yanqui," which is pronounced approximately,
    "Yankee."   That's close to the topic.  [There's also "Gringo,"
    which was covered elsewhere.]
    
    Admittedly, it's a technicality, since if you say "I'm an American,"
    most non-U.S. citizens will assume you mean that you're a citizern
    of the United States.
    
    But it isn't being timorous to be polite.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    RE -.2
    
    When someone asks me where I'm from, I say 'Chicago'.
    Everybody's heard of that!
    
    Spd

    	As the EEC moves closer to unity of various kinds will I have to
    call myself a Europeaneconomiccommunitian?
    
    	European will not do, since Switzerland and the European part of
    Russia are not likely to join and Turkey quite likely will - but if I
    have an EEC passport, what nationality am I?

    Citizens ofthe European Community will be Eckies, those who work
    in the EC for Digital will be Deckie Eckies, and if they are technical
    they will be tecky Deckie Eckies.
    
    Phillip

>                       "America," unlike the other examples mentioned
>    in .19, is the name of the continent 

"America" is not the name of a continent.  North America is a continent and 
South America is also a continent.  

>                                      There's a good case to
>    be made that anyone living from Canada to Tierra Del Fuego can
>    legitinately call him/herself "American."

Someone from North America is a Noth American and someone from South
America is a South American.  This ties in with people form Europe being 
European, Africa/African, Asia/Asian and so forth.  But if you ask a 
person from The People's Republic of Viet Nam what nationality he is, he 
won't say "Asian," he'll say "Vietnamese."  Likewise, when you ask a 
person from The United States of America his nationality, it's perfectly 
proper for him to respond "American."  

I don't know if a particular rule has been drawn up, but in general, we
seem to pick the last word in the name of a country that is unique to 
make up the adjective for nationality.  "The United States of" does not 
have anything unique to build on, but the "America" at the end does.  
And although I haven't hauled out my Atlas lately, I don't know of any 
other country that could cause confusion when you say "American."

					>>>==>PStJTT

    re .27 (PStJTT):
    
>"America" is not the name of a continent.  North America is a continent and 
>South America is also a continent.  
              
    If we want to be chicken-picky about it, until the Panama Canal,
    there was one continent, America, with northern and southern halves.
    :-)
    
>.................................. "The United States of" does not 
>have anything unique to build on, but the "America" at the end does.  
 
    Except I can't think of "The United States of" anywhere else.  If
    you say "I'm from the United States," what country do people think
    you're a citizen of?
    
    In Esperanto, if I remember correctly (I read some introductory
    stuff on it many decades ago), a citizen of the U.S. is referred
    to as a "Usono," which I presume is the (assumed) masculine of "Usona,"
    which I presume would be expanded to "United States of North America,"
    if the Esperantists used our terminology.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    This brings up an allied point:
    
    The country where Mercedez-Benz cars come from is what?
    
    "Deustchland" if you're a native, "Germany" if you're an
    English-speaker.
                    
    
    So no matter what a U.S. citizen refers to himself or herself as, he or
    she might be called something different elsewhere.
    
    Depends upon your perspective, I guess
        

>    If we want to be chicken-picky about it, until the Panama Canal,
>    there was one continent, America, with northern and southern halves.

No.  They were North America and South America long before there was a 
Panama Canal.  That's not being picky; it's just being accurate.  The 
names of continents don't get shortened for some reason.  Probably 
because there are no continents with two-word names other than North 
America and South America.  For that matter, there's only one other 
country whose natives call themselves after their continent name -- 
Austrailia.  But they don't share the continent with any other country, 
so they don't get pointless phobias about using the name.

I believe there are other countries in the world that have "the
United States"  in their names.  But I don't really remember who/where
they are.  It was one of those trick questions for geography exams. (The
United Malay States?) But the point was not that the phrase entire was
used, but that there are a number of countries that use "United" and
"States" in their names, so there is not much sense in trying to
compound a word for nationality on those. 

>    The country where Mercedez-Benz cars come from is what?
>
>    "Deustchland" if you're a native, "Germany" if you're an
>    English-speaker.

And what do we call people from the United Arab Republic?  Egyptians.  
So some names go back to traditional names for countries, no matter what 
the country is called today.

We don't really have to worry about what people from other countries
call themselves or us, as long as we're speaking English.  If you were 
to introduce somone who was visiting America as a "Deutschlander" it 
would be taken as pathetically pedantic or else humorous.  

The whole point of taking this thing up is that it's perfectly correct 
to describe yourself as an "American" if you're from the U.S.A.  You can 
call yourself something else if you like as well. ("U.S.",  "The
States", "A citizen of the United States of America",  "Ronnie's Boy.") 
It doesn't matter.  But it does matter that some people think that 
using "American" is wrong or that it denies the existence of the other 
countries on the two continents.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    	I believe that part of the translation/expansion of the Cyrillic
    CCCP could be United States, though the translation more normally given
    is Union of (Soviet Socialist) Republics. The inhabitants are
    frequently referred to as Russians unless one knows they come from one
    of the other republics such as Georgia. Even though Malaya was British
    for some time I doubt if the inhabitants still give their country name
    in English in geography examinations.

    CCCP does contain the Russian word "Respublikh" (Pecnybvux - where
    v = l!), so to translate it as States would be a little inaccurate
    - I speak from the straight linguistic point of view, before anyone
    decides to discuss the Soviet view of democracy, etc.
    
    Phillipok

    Re .-1 "where v = l"
    
    That's interesting.  Can you prove that?

    re:.32
    
    "Can you prove that?"
    
    Simple. Divide both sides by zero.
    
    :-)
    
    --- jerry

    Last night during the ABC coverage of the Winter Olympics, the
    commentator congratulated Eddy Edwards of the U.K. for setting a
    new Great British record in the ski jump.

    While we're on the subject (nearly the original subject of this
    topic, incredibly), what is the appropriate adjective for citizens
    of the U.K. who inhabit other parts of the Kingdom than Great Britain?

Lew Lasher

    Northern Irish
    
    Phillip

    Re .34 (Lew):
    
    >Last night during the ABC coverage of the Winter Olympics, the
    >commentator congratulated Eddy Edwards of the U.K. for setting a
    >new Great British record in the ski jump.
     
    Maybe the commentator was congratulating Eddy Edwards for " ...
    setting a new, great, British record in the ski jump." :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re .9 etc (well, a bit of a diversion)
    
    I remember, many moons ago, seeing a U.S. (American?, Yankee?) musical
    film called "Damn Yankees", a variant on the Faust/Mephistopheles
    theme wherein the hero sells his soul to become a youthful baseball
    star. Can anybody remind me who directed it and who acted in it?
    The Mephisto character had a great cigarette lighting trick, he'd
    snap his fingers and a flame would appear at his fingertip.
    
    While we're completely off on a tangent can anybody give me similar
    details on a film in which an angel prevents the caf�-owning 
    hero from jumping off a bridge with a weight round his neck by showing
    him how things would have turned out badly in the future had he done so.
    
    Dick (Brit who is a sucker for sentimental U.S. films)
    
    p.s. When I was at Honeywell we thought we could eat tecky Eccy
    Deccies for brecky.
    

    Re: .37
    
    The Mephisto character was Ray Walston better known for the tv series
    _My Favorite Martian_. The hero was either Tab Hunter or the other
    guy who looks like him, you know who....
    
    The second movie sounds a lot like _It's A Wonderful Life_ with
    Jimmy Stewart. It plays at least a dozen times a year during the
    Christmas season. That's the one where the angel, Clarence, earns
    his wings and you know it when a bell rings.
    
    Roger

    DAMN YANKEES was directed by Goerge Abbot (who wrote the screenplay)
    and Stanley Donen. It starred Gwen Vernon, Tab Hunter, Ray Walston,
    Russ Brown, and Shannon Bolin.
    
    It was filmed in 1958, and had the title WHAT LOLA WANTS in Britain.
    
    (Info courtesy of HALLIWELL'S FILM GUIDE.)
    
    The second film you mention is most assuredly Frank Capra's IT'S
    A WONDERFUL LIFE, starring Jimmy Stewart, Henry Travers, Donna Reed,
    and Lionel Barrymore. There was a made-for-tv-remake in the mid-70's
    called IT HAPPENED ONE CHRISTMAS. Reviews were generally less than
    enthusiastic, but I liked it (though not nearly as much as the
    original). It's raison d'etre was that the sexes of the principal
    characters --- except (boo! hiss!) Mr. Potter --- were reversed.
    The corresponding stars to the ones listed above for the original
    were: Marlo Thomas, Cloris Leachman, Wayne Rogers, and Orson Welles.
    
    --- jerry

    Knowing that I will be corrected by a geographer, and/or Phillip Mannion,
    here is my parochial view...
    
    The British Isles covers the whole lot: England, Eire, Northern
    Ireland (aka Ulster), Wales, Scotland and all the islands around and
    about.  Adjectives could include Briton and British Islander.
    
    Great Britain is England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and
    the islands around the coast.  I think I once came across the
    adjectival phrase Great Briton, but it isn't in common usage.
    
    The English or Englishmen come from England, the Welsh or Welshmen
    from Wales, the Scots or Scotsmen from Scotland, Ulstermen or Northern
    Irish come from Ulster, and the Irish come from Eire also known
    as the Republic of Ireland or Irish Republic.
    
    So what does that leave to define?  Well, there is the United Kingdom,
    which is England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man and
    the Channel Islands.  I am not aware of any word or phrase for a
    UK citizen, apart from UK citizen!
    
    Given that lot, I am not surprised if the rest of the world is unsure
    about the correct adjective to use for any particular person.
    
    Phillip Mannion is right in an earlier reply to point out the sporting
    problems we get.  UK sports commentators work on the basis that
    if the UK do well they can say "England has done well..." usurping
    the glory from the rest of the UK's nations.  Whereas if England
    does badly they say "The UK is failing..." sharing the shame.  A
    sort of 'I win, we lost' philosophy.

    To further add to the complexity:
    
    At many points in the past, the term "Briton" would include
    people living in Brittany and Normandy on the continent as
    well as those living in the British islands.
    
    In fact, Brittany (Bretagne) is the source of the word Britain,
    and the "British isles" referred to the islands belonging to
    Brittany. 
    
    --bonnie, always willing to complicate the already complicated
     

    G'day,
    
    
    Not forgetting, of course, the Scilly Islanders, The Channel Islanders
    and Manxmen! Let alone Sassanachs and other local names (Geordies
    etc).
    
    No doubt there is a special name for the inhabitants of Welwyn too
    ;-)
    
         Dj

    One other little complication: there are nine counties in Ulster,
    and only six of them are in Northern Ireland.
    
    b

    As well as there being nine counties in Ulster, the term "Eire"
    is a geographical term referring to the whole island of Ireland,
    not just the Republic.
    
    Another interesting snippet - looking through my wife's passport
    renewal form, I noticed that Manxmen (inhabitants of the Isle of
    Man [of both sexes :-)]) and Channel Islanders can only get full
    British passports if they can show direct descent from a mainlander.
    
    So it would seem that Man and the Channel Islands are not part of
    the United Kingdom.
    
    Jeff.

    Re .44:
    
>   So it would seem that Man and the Channel Islands are not part of
>   the United Kingdom.
    
    According to my cousin, who lives in Guernsey C.I., the local (tongue
    in cheek, perhaps) view is that contrary to the Channel Islands being
    a part of the United Kingdom, the U.K. is/should be subservient to the 
    Channel Islands.
    
    The somewhat specious rationale is that following the Norman invasion 
    England became part of the personal fiefdom of William the Conqueror,
    of which the Channel Islands are the last remaining independent (and
    never conquered by the U.K.) fragment.

    Jim