Conference tallis::celt

    " end to collusion" 
    
    at the highest level no doubt.
    
    
    [yawn]

It's unusual for you to want to see things from both sides, isn't it Mark?
Oh, and please, find a new catch phrase, will you?  No matter how many
times you say it doesn't make it any more true.

Yawn.

Chris.

Democratic Unionist Party leader the Rev Ian Paisley said a truce based on
a British Government ``surrender'' would be a recipe for civil war.

The outlawed loyalist Ulster Freedom Fighters terror group had issued a
chilling statement utterly rejecting the idea of a united Ireland.

Mr Hanley, a former Ulster minister, also vowed: ``We will not allow
terrorists to get the upper hand.''

Senior Tory backbencher Peter Temple-Morris said only ``very few'' Tory
MPs had fears about the process.

    Well! I've been listening to the news all day and the British response
    seems to me to be optimistic. Ian Paisley does not, thank God, speak
    for the British Government.

    OK Julie, I'll bite. What is "optimistic" mean?
    
    As a meaningful first response is there any movement to allow Sinn Fein
    uncensored press and unrestricted movement in the UK?  Or will the
    British government continue to spoonfeed the British public and demonize
    Irish nationalists?  In my opinion the British government have an
    opportunity to steal the thunder from the IRA announcement. But will
    they?
    
    /George

    "Optimistic" as far as I understand means that they hope that the IRA
    are going to call a ceasefire at midnight as expected and that they
    hope that an end to the conflict is in sight. They seem to be a bit
    cautious - rather like the IRA and Sein Fein were after the Downing
    Street declaration - but certainly they are hopeful. There have been
    new-flashes throughout the afternoon - obviously this is being taken
    seriously. "Optimistic" was the word used by John Major, incidently.
    The British public appear to believe that this is the beginning of
    peace - headlines in the press have been along the lines of "Peace at
    last" etc. etc.
    
    >> As a meaningful first response is there any movement to allow Sinn Fein
    >> uncensored press and unrestricted movement in the UK?
    
    I haven't heard any such announcement as yet - the ceasefire was
    announced at midday and I came to work at 3.30pm. There may have been a
    response since I left.
    
    >> Or will the British government continue to spoonfeed the British public 
                                                               
    They don't.
    
    >> and demonize Irish nationalists?
    
    The Government demonizes terrorists, both loyalist and republican and
    those who support violence.
    
    >> In my opinion the British government have an opportunity to steal the 
    >> thunder from the IRA announcement. But will they?
                
    If there is peace, it will be down to a number of factors - not the
    Downing Street declaration, not the IRA ceasefire, not pressure from the 
    US. It will be as a result of ALL these things.. 
    Also, although they probably won't get any credit, it will be down to 
    those in Northern Ireland who have put their lives at risk in trying to 
    integrate the two communities in schools, youth clubs etc. 

    The BBC has already called for the broadcasting ban to be lifted. 
    There are some government ministers who believe the ban should never
    have been imposed in the first place. Their view, with which I concur, 
    is that far from demonizing Sinn Fein and the IRA, the ban has won them 
    extra support, especially in America. The constant bleating about British 
    censorship in this conference, ignoring the real issues, is evidence of
    how they have turned the censorship issue to their advantage.
    
    Incidentally, there was a long interview with Martin McGuinness on BBC
    radio this morning, his words spoken by an actor with an NI accent.
    Gerry Adams has been extensively reported in newspapers and has
    appeared on television, his words dubbed verbatim by an actor.
    
    If this is censorship, it's not exactly effective.
    
    Dave 
        

 re. .7

 Your type of mentality would justify putting 
 the Star of David up, everytime a Jewish reporter
 was on the air.
 No wonder your nation is so backwards.  To turn out
 people who can seriously attempt to minimize the
 effects of government censorship, and the demonization
 brought on by that censorship.
 The only sense you made in your post was that you
 agree the ban should be lifted.  Unfortunately you
 then go on to parrot the government line.  Do you
 really think the British government would have kept
 the censorship intact, if it hadn't worked as designed?
 Namely to demonize their political opposition.

                    Mark

  Looks like the British are playing word games.
  The Irish government, the U.S., John Hume, Gerry Adams,
  and the rest of the world understand the IRA's 
  announcement, but John Major and Ian Paisley seem
  to be "confused".  Confused over the prospect of
  having their bluff called.

  Meanwhile, no announcements on British troop withdrawal,
  an end to British collusion with loyalist death
  squads, and an end to British human rights violations.

  Well, at least the opportunity for peace has been
  laid, and the world will know that the British are
  to blame, if it does not materialize.

                         Mark

Something wrong, Holohan?  Seems to me that you're a bit miffed that
there's a risk of peace breaking out in NI.  Having one last go at
us evil Brits while you've still got the Troubles to use as an excuse,
eh?  Human rights campaigner?  Come off it.  The way you're carping
on about things you obviously don't give a toss.  And you accuse the
British of not wanting peace?  Oh well, you *are* a renowned hypocrite,
I suppose.

At least the people who really matter don't appear to be afflicted
by your twisted, bitter mentality.

Chris.

    Dave, I watched part of the town meeting in Belfast on "Nightline" here
    in the US last night.  They had Hume, McCrea, and some other large
    Unionist politician.  I thought Hume did a good job.  His tenet was
    that by accident or not, we are neighbors, and we had better get used
    to one another, and work earnestly to agree on some form of joint
    government, acceptable to all parties.  McCrea said he would never sit
    at a table with Sinn Fein, never.  You figure?
    
    Nightline also replayed interviews with Gerry Adams from the BBC.
    The words were dubbed.  It's interesting that Nightline simply 
    stated something like "British broadcasting restrictions prevents
    Gerry Adams voice from being spoken".  No mention of whether this
    was good or bad.  American media was being nice.
    
    I have to agree with Mark, however, that the British broadcasting
    restrictions are like putting a Star of David on Jewish reporters.
    How long would that last?  I'd say about 2 minutes.
    
    Not only does this ban win them more support (yes especially in America),
    but worse than that it further drives a wedge between the 2 communities
    by implying that "these people" are so bad, we cannot let them speak.
    The broadcast ban is just not a way to build trust between the troubled
    parties in NI.  And one would hope that when they do remove it, that
    it is done to promote that trust and not simply to reduce American support
    for the IRA.
   
    /George

    George,
    
    Rightly or wrongly, Unionists see Sinn Fein as the mouthpiece of the
    IRA, and Northern Ireland has suffered horrendously at the hands of the 
    IRA over 25 years. It will not be easy for the Unionists to sit down
    with them, still less to trust them, but I hope it will happen.
    
    I agree with you about censorship and have never been in favour of it.
    What I cannot agree with is the view frequently put forward in
    this conference that British censorship and other such issues are the main
    reason for the conflict and justify the IRA's actions. In my view nothing
    justifies what any of the terrorist groups have done in the name of Ireland
    in the last 25 years.
    
    Dave
    

    Well, it's a two edged sword.  Yes, NI (and England) have suffered from
    the IRA for the past 25 years, but Nationalists one could argue have
    suffered more and longer.  As Hume says, one could list all the attacks
    on Nationalists, starting with partition, the B-Specials,  all the way up
    to Bloody Sunday, and where does that get us?  Nothing. It's history. It's
    over, let's move forward from today.  You have to understand (and I'm sure
    you do) that there is distrust on both sides of the camp in NI, and no
    one side has exclusive rights on distrust, Unionist, Nationalist, or
    British.
    
    I agree that British censorship isn't the main reason for the conflict
    nor does it justify violence.  In fact it probably ranks low on the
    problems relating to NI.  But nonetheless censorship isn't right, in
    whatever form.  You wouldn't like it if today, America censored English
    ex-pats who think America should join the Commonwealth.
    
    Looking forward,
    George
                                                           

    George,
    
    Of course you are correct, everybody involved in the situation has 
    suffered, and I hope I haven't implied otherwise.
    
    In fact I agree wih everything you say!
    
    Dave

    The loyalists appear to be finding it difficult to believe that the IRA
    are going to maintain a ceasefire. One of them said on a programme last
    night that the IRA had been killing them for 25 years: the ceasefire
    was 25 minutes old and, whilst he was glad that it had been announced,
    he wasn't going to believe them until he'd seen evidence of that
    ceasefire. Both sides find it difficult to trust each other, of course.
    
    I heard before I came to work that the Mayor of Belfast has called on
    the loyalists to respond by announcing their own ceasefire.
    Also the Australian Prime Minister has urged the British Government to
    believe in the ceasefire. 
    I also heard that President Clinton is saying that the ceasefire must
    be permanent, but I may have misheard that - I only caught the tail end 
    of that report. 

re: .15 - I think the Unionist Terrorists know full well it's ceasefire!

There problem is not whether to believe it, rather how to present themselves
from now on. It was easy to justify their actions as a response to IRA
aggression - now it's a whole new ball game.

I think they were caught completely off guard by this announcement. The 
first press reports were incredible "IRA announce cease-fire, this will lead
to war". I'm not sure whether the press (TV/Radio) mis-quoted them
(e.g. contracted two separate statements into one).

re: censorship

I heard an extract from `Larry King' on CNN this morning. He interviewed
Gerry Adams, they used a voiceover (he sounded American) but the words
show just how much censorship does go on most other channels. I would
look out for that if you get a chance.

Mark

    I wasn't talking about the terrorists - I was talking generally about
    loyalists, and no, they DON'T know for sure! They're hoping that it is,
    of course they are - like everyone else, they're sick of the violence -
    but they want to SEE the ceasefire, not just read the statement. 
    Don't forget that both sides have been hating each other for years. They 
    are distrustful of each other and it's not surprising, really. They've
    been shooting and bombing the daylights out of each other for so long.  
                      

 re. .17

  Agreed, so what have the British shown for their
  "ceasefire"?  Have they begun to pull out troops?
  Have they stopped their massive build up and 
  reinforcement of border posts? 
  I've yet to see the British forces even make a
  statement on this.  It would take some time after
  they said this, for me to even begin to believe
  that the British forces can be trusted.

                    Mark 

    

      Maybe someone can clarify this,but I'm sure I heard on the news
    that the Security forces were going to stop road blocks.



    SCott

    Re .18
    
    Mark, go back to sleep, we'll wake you up when you realise that 1972 is
    over!!
    
    Joe.

    I've just been home for a lunchbreak and the following is the latest
    news that's been broadcast:
    
    Firstly, the British Government are studying an article in the Irish
    Times by Gerry Adams in which he says that Albert Reynold's
    interpretation of the ceasefire announcement is correct. They believe
    that this may be enough to show that the IRA are serious. Patrick
    Mayhew said (I think before the ceasefire) that the word "permanent"
    did not HAVE to be said as long as the intention was clear. This
    article may prove it to be so.
    
    Martin McGuinness has said that the argument over the word permanent is
    all a storm in a teacup and has urged people not to get hung up over
    it. 
    
    The loyalist response is expected next week, but a Belfast protestant
    churchman, who has been holding talks with the loyalist leaders (I
    can't remember whether this means terrorist leaders or just leaders)
    and he is optimistic about them agreeing to a ceasefire and laying down
    their arms.
    
    Patrick Magee, Gerard McDonnell, Thomas Quigley, and Patrick McLaughlin
    have all been (or are about to be) transferred from mainland prisons to
    Northern Irish prisons. There appears to be a bit of a fuss over this
    one - it was done by the prison authorities without consultation and
    John Major wants an inquiry. 
    
    Mark, you say that you can't believe that the British forces can be
    trusted. Can you therefore understand why the loyalists find it
    difficult to trust the IRA? Can you understand their concerns if the
    British Army were to pull straight out? The IRA and Sein Fein were
    cautious about the Downing Street declaration. Why don't you allow for the
    loyalists and British Government to be cautious about the ceasefire?
    They have as much difficulty in trusting the IRA as you have in trusting 
    them.
    
    Aren't you happy about the ceasefire? You don't appear to be all that
    enthusiastic about it.  

    Oh, that reminds me:
    
    No road blocks in Belfast today. At least, that's what was reported.
    Perhaps one of the Belfast office can confirm this?

  re. .21

  All I see is the IRA making a monumental step,
  yet nothing has changed on the British side.
  Like I said before, British words, not British deeds.

                 Mark

    Rather like the loyalists are saying "IRA words, not IRA deeds", don't
    you think? 

    Yes, I also heard that some roadblocks were removed. I would
    expect/hope the British military to start removing/downsizing
    their border posts and allow re-opening the roads that they closed
    in the rural areas.
    
    Other goodwill acts would be not scaring farm animals with
    their low-flying helicopters, as my relatives have indicated.
    In any case I'm optimistic.
    
    /George

    
    On the news tonight it stated that the Army was looking at ways to tone
    down its patrols.They are thinking of replacing their steel helmets
    with berrets and carry their rifles "slung" instead of at the ready.
    
    Graeme...

    RE � replacing their steel helmets
    
    These were replaced several years ago, with kevlar :-) Nice touch 
    with the berrets though.
    
    As for the slung rifles, the SA80 sling is a nifty bit of kit. From the
    little I have seen you can go from the slung position to the ready in
    about 2 seconds or less.
    
    Still a nice touch. 
    
    It is totally un-reasonable to expect a withdraw of troops with a
    ceasefire only a few days old. In any case, a couple of monthsago when
    the IRA were commentig  they them selves said they wouldn't want an
    instant and complete withdraw. They suggested a phased withdraw over a
    period of time.
    
    Simon

                     <<< Note 1405.23 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >>>



>  All I see is the IRA making a monumental step,
>  yet nothing has changed on the British side.
>  Like I said before, British words, not British deeds.
 
   Mark,

   As I have said before - if the IRA accept the situation , why can't you?

   Stuart

    RE: .27  by SUBURB::FRENCHS 
    
    >As for the slung rifles, the SA80 sling is a nifty bit of kit. From the
    >little I have seen you can go from the slung position to the ready in
    >about 2 seconds or less.
    
    Still better than the present situation.  It's a bit unsettling to have
    one trained on you as you walk down the street.
    

    Don't get me wrong Dennis, I agree with you 100%. It gives the
    impression of a more relaxed situation.
    
    Simon

 re. .24

  The difference being, the IRA keep their word, and
  say what they mean.

                 Mark

    >>                     <<< Note 1405.31 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >>>
    >>
    >>  re. .24
    >>
    >>  The difference being, the IRA keep their word, and
    >>  say what they mean.

    Yeah the IRA say  "We're gonna kill you.  Die Orange B*(&()&D's"  And
    then they kill a few innocent workers, shoppers, passers-by.  A right
    trustworthy group of upstanding individuals.
    
    
    

    
    If I was a British soldier (fat chance !), I would STILL want to carry
    my rifle in the trained position. 
    So the IRA have announce a ceasefire, so what ?
    Now have the INLA or any of the other splinter groups done likewise ?
    No.........so all you Brits out there serving in NI, stay alert !
    
    

    I heard at the weekend that the INLA are expected to announce a
    ceasefire soon. I haven't heard any further reports of this, however.

    

     Heard a interesting theory on NI the other day.


     The IRA bombings in the city of London finically hurt the
    government.They cost Billions.The BG could not stand up to
    them for long.

     The IRA knew that the killings were never going to get the 
    BG out of NI.

     SO,The BG have talks with the IRA.They say Call a ceasefire and
    we'll pull the troops out.And just for good measure give 3 top
    UFF men up to the IRA.(remember they were killed on a street corner)
    and move Republician prisoners back to NI..The IRA make keep up the 
    racketeering so their not losing any money.SO both are happy.
    Major only gains.the IRA only gain,the Loyalists get shafted

     They agree on a referendum for the hole of Ireland to decide what
    happens in the north.Ireland becomes one...the Loyalists go berserk,
    Major doesn't care as as it's now Dublins problem.He goes down in
    history as the prime minister who got Britain out of Ireland and kept
    face.so he wins the next election.The Loyalists in the north start 
    bombing Dublins so they can get an Independent state.
     


             SCott

    
    re.-1   As they say Scot, watch this space.

5/9/94
 --------
 Car bomb shakes Irish peace efforts

    BELFAST (Reuter) - A car bomb exploded outside the press office of Sinn
 Fein, the political wing of the IRA, in a Catholic area of Belfast on Sunday
 night in what the group immediately denounced as an attack on peace efforts.
    The outlawed Protestant extremist Ulster Volunteer Force claimed
 responsibility for the attack, saying it was promoting ``the cause of
 democracy."
    But Sinn Fein said it would not be deflected from its goal of a
 ``complete demilitarisation" by all the parties in Northern Ireland,
 including their Protestant extremist enemies, the police and the army.
    A police spokesman no one was injured in the blast, which shattered
 nearby windows and could be heard across the city but did not cause much
 damage.
    It was the first bomb attack since Irish Republican Army guerrillas,
 campaigning to oust Britain from Northern Ireland, began a ceasefire last
 Thursday.
    ``This was an attack on the peace process, but we will not be
intimidated by the loyalist death squads nor will we be deflected from the
peace process," Tom Hartley, a Sinn Fein    The UVF had been debating
whether to join the ceasefire but some UVF sources were angered by media
speculation about this. Its statement referred to an IRA attack in a small
Northern Ireland village during a 1991 Protestant guerrilla ceasefire.
    Sinn Fein has been promised a place at talks on the future of the
 province if the truce holds but Protestant unionists, who desperately want
to remain part of Britain, fear any recognition of republicans could leave
them disenfranchised.
    Just a few hours before the bomb, Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams had led a
 rally of about 700 supporters in a demonstration outside the same office. He
 urged Catholics to take to the streets to persuade British police and army
 troops to leave.
    The London Guardian newspaper said the U.S. government, which has played
 a central role in recent developments, had granted a second visitor's visa
to Adams.
    ``He has almost certainly the personal intervention of President Clinton
 to thank for this," the paper said.
    A visit by Adams to the United States in February aroused the ire of
both the British government and Protestant unionists, who accused Washington
of providing the Sinn Fein leader with a propoganda platform.

Transmitted:  94-09-05 02:29:30 EDT

re: .35

I think you are letting your imagination run wild there! I don't think the BG
would ever do that. I think your opening lines though come a bit closer
to the truth than we will ever know.

I was surprised by the cease-fire announcement, and delighted. I had 
thought that the whole deal was off. I don't know how widely known
this is but a bag containing bombmaking equipment was stolen from
a train in Reading, England, recently. It was on a train bound for Bournemouth
where they are going to hold a Tory party conference soon. Of course this
is pure speculation but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if, when
they come to write the history of this period, they find a linkage 
between these two events. I can just imagine John Major saying something
like "that's it, I've had enough, let these *** Irishmen sort it out themselves!

Mark

    > I don't know how widely known this is but a bag containing bombmaking 
    > equipment was stolen from a train in Reading, England,
    
    Front page news here - daft idiot left it outside a shop about 2 miles
    up the road from Digital when he realised what it was. The whole area
    was blocked off. Just before rush-hour, too.
    He WAS a compulsive thief - apparently he'd just been released on bail for 
    a similar offence in Oxford. If this doesn't cure him, nothing will!
                                                

    Not sure which note to put this one in...
    
    Albert Reynolds and Gerry Adams have held a 90 minute meeting (which
    has displeased the loyalists somewhat) and released a joint statement
    to the effect that the peace process is moving forward, that they are
    committed to bringing peace in Ireland and calling for support in this.
    The statement also said that the peace process cannot succeed without
    the co-operation of the loyalists. I'm sorry, but I can't remember it
    all word for word.
    
    Ian Paisley's meeting with John Major has not ended quite so amicably.
    In fact, it was terminated abruptly due to Ian Paisley's refusal to
    accept John Major's word that there had been no deals made over the IRA
    ceasefire. Ian Paisley claims he was told to get out of the room. 
    
    Gerry Adams has said that he wants to meet Ian Paisley. He offers the
    hand of friendship to his loyalist brothers and sisters in Northern
    Ireland. Haven't heard Ian Paisley's response to that one :-)

    'Insensitive' is about the mildest word I have heard to describe this
    meeting. It seems that 25 years of atrocities can be brushed under the
    carpet in less than a week. As Gerry Fitt said yesterday, if it had
    been the Republic that was on the receiving end of the IRA campaign, 
    there would not be such haste. I wonder what impression it gives the
    Unionists.
    
    Dave

    
    Unionists are cleaving to Major, who I doubt they trust, so as not to
    be publicly seen scuttling the initiative. They probably think it'll
    unravel when the old knot comes in full view - the Unionist veto. The
    IRA is hoping the Brit govt will sell out on that under pressure from
    US. If they don't, why the IRA will simply crank up the terrorism
    again.
    

    RE: .-1 + .-2
    
    C'mon guys, give it a chance. 25 years of atrocities to *all*
    parties involved: Nationalist, Unionist, and English.  Or are
    you only selectively counting 25 years of IRA atrocities? 
    
    In any case there is no going back. The IRA violent campaign is
    over, kaput.  Peace should be fully embraced.  Unionists suspicions
    will be allayed over time.
    
    George     
    
    Re: Gerry Fitt, he may have a point, but remember that
     1) for centuries the Irish have been on the receiving end
     2) signals for potential ceasefire have been emanating from
        the IRA for several years now. The arrival of the ceasefire
        is not that surprising as some may lead to think.
     3) the ceasefire is complete and permanent (semantics aside)
        - British soldiers are "walking" around Belfast

    In the context of the meeting I'm talking about IRA atrocities. Within
    a week of the cessation of 25 years of IRA violence, Sinn Fein has
    suddenly become respectable.
    
    Of course this may well be a move to box in the IRA.
    
    Dave

    >Of course this may well be a move to box in the IRA.
    
    It also is a move that obviously John Major could not make that
    early on, but someone higher up had to.  Could have been just Hume,
    but Reynolds may have been eager to put his name on it too.
    
    It is also a move to prod the British into responding positively.
    
    As you mention, it is a move to box in the IRA, i.e. make it   
    next to impossible to go back to armalite.
    
    And it is a political move by the Republic in a way to re-assert
    its claim to the North.
    
    The trio must now find a way to reach an agreement with Wilson.
    
    /george

  >        <<< Note 1405.45 by TALLIS::DARCY "Alpha Migration Tools" >>>
  >
  >  The trio must now find a way to reach an agreement with Wilson.
  >  
  >  /george
    
    
    Who's Wilson ?
    
    Mark

    Security forces have been scaled down, according to the news this
    afternoon. This is apparently an Army decision, not a Government one.
    Patrick Mayhew says they are responding to the reduced risk.
    
    Ian Paisley has likened John Major to Hitler following their little
    tiff yesterday.

    Well, they must negociate an agreement with the Ulster
    Unionists, the biggest party. 
    
    Jim Wilson is the general secretary to that party.  His
    comments yesterday were not seen as good sign. He said 
    that the meeting yesterday would encourage loyalist
    extremist attacks.  They may well, but it would have
    better to have said nothing, than to possibly encourage
    more violence. I guess we'll wait and see.
    
    /g

    >Ian Paisley has likened John Major to Hitler following their little
    >tiff yesterday.
    
    How do you even begin to respond to statements like that?
    If John Major were Hitler, what would Maggie be?  :v)
    
    /g

 re. .49

 "If John Major were Hitler, what would Maggie be?  :v)"

  A right Margaret Thatcher, that's what.  It doesn't
  get any lower than that.  :-)

                     Mark

 re. .48

 Interesting isn't it George.  Gerry Adams talks peace,
 and is censored in Britain.  Jim Wilson, Ian Paisley
 promote violence, and are uncensored by the British.
 Kind of tells you where the British government really
 stand, doesn't it.

                  Mark

    thanks George. I had always seen James Molyneux as the figurehead of
    the Ulster Unionist.  I too wish that more of these guys would give
    peace a chance.
    
> and is censored in Britain.  Jim Wilson, Ian Paisley
> promote violence, and are uncensored by the British.
> Kind of tells you where the British government really
> stand, doesn't it.
    
    Remember the old "oxygen of publicity" speech ?  It's been proved to be
    load of old codswallop.  I thinkthat newscasters in this country now
    deliberately use the "Gevernment restrictions" clause when reporting on
    Sinn Fein.  Coming so soon after the Gulf War and the restrictions
    placed on reporting by the Iraqi government, it really makes the
    government look stupid.
    
    As for your piece about Thatcher, couldn't agree more (makes a change,
    eh?) 
    
    
    
    Mark

    >Remember the old "oxygen of publicity" speech ?  It's been proved to be
    >load of old codswallop.  I thinkthat newscasters in this country now
    >deliberately use the "Gevernment restrictions" clause when reporting on
    >Sinn Fein.  Coming so soon after the Gulf War and the restrictions
    >placed on reporting by the Iraqi government, it really makes the
    >government look stupid.
    
    I do think that the BBC are against the restrictions on Sinn Fein
    by exactly what you said Mark R.  I have never heard a Gerry Adams
    muppet without the government restrictions clause being stated. Is
    that clause required by the government or the BBC?  I suspect the
    BBC puts that in to egg HMG.  There are sane people in the BBC.
    
    We got a dose of filtered news during the Gulf War and it was
    pretty irritating. I don't know how Britain fared, but probably
    was about the same.
                                        
    /g

    It's the government that placed the restrictions. The BBC wants them
    lifted and irritates the government by broadcasting like this. I
    can't see it lasting much longer, just a long enough delay to avoid
    upsetting the Unionists too much.
    
    Mind you, somebody in EF94 suggested that all speeches by politicians 
    should be broadcast this way.
    
    Dave 

    >>If John Major were Hitler, what would Maggie be?  :v)
    
    Attila the Hen?  :*)
    
    No censorship of Gerry Adams on the CBC (Canadian Broadcorping
    Castration) of the BBC feeds.  Nor was there any censorship on the
    BBC's World Service (TV) airing on the CBC's Newsworld channel.
    
    So it appears that the Beeb feels that the colonies are intelligent
    enough to listen to `inflammatory republican rhetoric'.
    
    Korff

    RE: .47  by SUBURB::ODONNELLJ 
    
    >Ian Paisley has likened John Major to Hitler following their little
    >tiff yesterday.
    
    I would've expected him to make comparisons to Chamberlain.
    

    Neville, not Richard, I assume?

    
    There's a 5 minute program on after the channel 4 news every night here
    in the UK, that gives somebody, anybody, the chance to air their views
    on a particular topic.
    
    Last night it was Conor Grimes, one of the guys who does the Gerry
    Adams voice-overs.  Despite what it would mean to his job prospects, he
    wants the ban lifted and made some valid points to back up his case.
    
    And no, he looks bugger-all like Gerry Adams.
    
    Mark

    

     In some area's the troops are wearing berries and have taken of
    there flak jacket's.Road blocks have been removed,and the cross border
    check points have been scaled down.

     In other areas they are still in full battle dress as the INLA have 
    announced no ceasefire.


     SCott

    
    >>If John Major were Hitler, what would Maggie be?  :v)
    
    Did you know that Maggie is going up in the next NASA space shuttle?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    She wants to know if a cow really can jump over the moon! :>)
    

    Gosh, I actually agree with Mr Holohan. I detest Maggie, she did her
    best to destroy everything decent in the U.K. and leave a society
    driven purely by greed.
    
                             Dennis

  On another note, could someone in Britain please
  tell me what the word "complete" is defined as in the
  British dictionary.  There seems to be some
  discrepancy with the American definition of the
  phrase.  My American heritage dictionary defines
  it as concluded, ended, to end.  I suspect in 
  the British language it means something different?

                  Mark

  When will John Major (head of the political wing of
  the British forces) do something to stop the 
  collusion with these loyalist death squads?

                             Mark




RTw  9/6/94 11:02 AM

    By Barbara McCann
     BELFAST, Sept 6 (Reuter) - The first person to be killed in
 Northern Ireland's violence since the Irish Republican Army
 declared a ceasefire last week was buried in Belfast on
 Tuesday.
     John O'Hanlon, 32, a Catholic, was shot as he worked on a
 car in a street near his north Belfast home just a few hours after
 the ceasefire took effect.
     The outlawed Ulster Freedom Fighters, a Protestant
 extremist group that targets Catholics in its battle to keep
 Northern Ireland British, claimed responsibility.
     Bishop Michael Dallat, speaking at O'Hanlon's funeral, said
 the killing was "particularly detestable coming at a time when
 hopes were high."
     Most people in Belfast desperately hope that O'Hanlon will
 turn out to be the final victim of 25 years of "troubles" in
 Northern Ireland, but few believe this will actually prove to be
 the case.
     Dallat urged Protestant extremists to join the IRA, which
 seeks to unite the province with the predominantly Catholic
 Irish republic.
     Even then, he said, a total truce would just be the beginning
 of peace, Total reconciliation must follow.
     "We must walk slowly and pick our steps carefully," Dallat
 told the 50 mourners, who included O'Hanlon's girlfriend and
 three-year-old son.
     "We have to avoid the puddles and potholes of shibboleths
 and slogans, of triumphalism and impatience, of intimidation
 and suspicion."
     People had to be careful what they said, he added. "Words
 can also be violent, words can injure, can intimidate, can
 frighten. Words can kill and destroy efforts at reconciliation."
     The UFF and the loosely allied Ulster Volunteer Force are
 considering joining the ceasefire, but share the fears of legal
 Protestant unionist groups that any agreement with Irish
 nationalists would dilute Northern Ireland's British status.
     As O'Hanlon was buried, Irish Prime Minister Albert
 Reynolds broke longstanding taboos and held talks in Dublin
 with Gerry Adams, leader of the IRA's political wing Sinn Fein.
 ------------------------------------------------------
-

    In UK English, the phrase "the train came to a complete stop in the
    station" doesn't imply that the train will never move again.
    
    Is it different in American English?
    
    Dave   

 I see, so if you worked for me, and I asked, "Have 
 you completed your task".
 You would respond in British, "I have completed my
 task", but it would be understood that since you 
 spoke British, it didn't mean you had necessarily
 really finished it.

 You'd last about 2 minutes working for me.
 
                   Mark
  

    Personally, I think Major is floundering a bit
    and not wanting to appear too eager for peace 
    in order not to irritate the Unionists.  If that appears
    strange, it is.  I believe the IRA "complete" ceasefire,
    without precondition or withdrawal, caught Major off
    guard a bit.  He knows he isn't going to get the
    IRA to say permanent, so he figures it will bide 
    some time for him playing semantics.  But that will
    only last 3 months and then he'll have to respond in
    some manner.  Can you picture Adams shaking Major's
    hand?  Hee hee.  Almost like Shimon Peres and Yassir
    Arafat, who looked like someone that was coerced into
    inviting the unwanted next-door neighbors and all their
    kids to an elegant dinner party.
    
    Oh politics, such a mind game...
    
                                   

    > Can you picture Adams shaking Major's hand?
    
    I want to see the day when Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams shake hands.

    In any case, Mark, it's not so long since the IRA were saying that the
    Downing Street declaration was full of descrepences, but refusing to
    say what it was they objected to. Both sides, when on the defensive,
    are cagey and it's hardly surprising that they should be, seeing that
    they distrust each other so thoroughly.

    
    Sinn Fein took 8 months to reply to the Downing St Declaration.  I
    don't think it's unreasonable for the govt. to take it's time in
    replying to the IRA's moves.
    
    As for another incidence of the 'C' word (3 or 4 replies back),  the
    Loyalist thugs can quite easily kill people without anyone's help.  They 
    are a bit like the IRA in that respect.  

    
    re Adams/Paisley
    
    I think if they were that close it would Adams' throat that the Rev 
    would be shaking.
                                                                        

re .65,

just for argument's sake, never heard of Problem Reporting or Change
Requests?  :)

Chris.

    re .65
    
    My example uses an adjective (as in "complete cessation", "complete
    stop") and yours a verb. I'll ignore the personal abuse.
    
    Yours grammatically,
    
    Dave

    re.65
    Whats this language called "British" then Mark? I know of ay least 3
    different languages which are widely spoken in Britain.
    What do you speak? English or American?
    I'm not surprised that you don't know the difference between adjectives
    and adverbs but I wouldn't say it was your fault either.
    American speak is full of double negatives which English speakers have
    to translate to make any sense of.
    Here's an example from a couple of years ago, written by an American in
    the CSC.
    Enter 41000001 ( to ENABLE spin up bit)
    Enter 42000001 ( to DISABLE spin up bit)  they were talking here about
    making a scsi drive spin on power up. Except all is not as it seems
    because the first entry means it does NOT spin on power up and the
    second one does?????? It's not a mistake.
    
    How do you get anyone to work for you for more than two minutes? Is it
    because most Americans are frightened of losing their jobs? Which
    presumably means that you can be as abnoxious as you like and get away
    with it.
    
    Anyway, not to run into a rathole here, the difference in
    interpretation of language is as different between Scotland and England
    as it is between Ireland and America and like it or not, that is also a
    fact.

 re. .73

> Whats this language called "British" then Mark?

  Form of English spoken in the third world nation
  known as Britain.

> What do you speak? English or American?

  American.  Form of English spoken in America.

                Hasta la vista baby! 
                      Mark

    
    American. Form of English spoken much slower to allow for the inferior
    processing speed of its users...(Especially in the North East)
    
    
    
    

    
    
     re.59    

     <<In some area's the troops are wearing berries and have.....>>
                                             ^^^^^^^
    
    

     Scott,
          
         Would that be straw, black or goose ?????
    
    8*))
    
    

American - form of English which is usually adopted by British English once
it's forgotten where it came from!

Paaahk the Caaahhh ... is more relic rural Norfolk, England, accent than
American. 

M

    
    Hasta la vista baby??????
    
    very American that Mark... I don't think. American culture... probably.

Mark,



If that guy was working for you he wouldn't last two minutes
because you'd give him the bullet, right? 


:-)

On a more serious note I am thrilled to see the ceasefire. I believe it is 
complete/final/total etc and John Hume and Gerry Adams deserve credit
for their efforts.  When the Ian Paisleys', Sammy Wilsons' of this world
take off the blinkers they might begin to see the possibilities that exist 
for both parts of the island now.

Paul

    Just heard on the news that there is going to be a referendum in
    Northern Ireland on the future of the Province; that the broadcasting
    ban on Sein Fein and Gerry Adams has been lifted as of now and that 10
    minor crossovers on the border have been opened. 
    As announced by John Major today.

    
    There must be some hidden agenda....
    
    ...everybody knows that the British don't want peace in NI.

               BRITISH SEEK TO BLOCK ADAMS IN U.S.
                         by Niall O'Dowd
                 from The Irish Voice (New York)
                     Sept. 14-Sept. 20, 1994

                          *************

     Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams is expected in the United
States within the next week for an extensive trip despite efforts
by the British government and the State Department to either
postpone or alter the nature of his visit.

     The British government, while not opposing the granting of
the visa to Adams, are seeking to restrict access in Washington
for the Sinn Fein leader. They are also seeking to curtail the
length of his visit to the country.

     Current plans call for Adams to arrive in the U.S. around
the 21rst of September. The visit will included stops in at least
10 U.S, cities, including New York, Washington, Boston,
Philadelphia, Hartford, Albany, Detroit, Chicago, San Francisco
and Los Angeles. He is expected to visit Washington towards the
end of his trip here. While there, he is expected to meet top-
level officials and politicians, including National Security
advisor Tony Lake.

     Washington is considered the key leg of the Adams trip, and
his visit there would be the first by a Sinn Fein leader since
Eamon de Valera traveled to D.C. as head of Sinn Fein back in the
early part of this century. Already, Senator Chris Dodd of Senate
Foreign Relations Committee has made it known that he would like
to arrange a hearing for Adams.

     Senior British officials have also told the Clinton
administration that they believed that Adams should not come to
the U.S. until after the Unionist leaders have visited
Washington, in order for the U.S. administration to demonstrate
their even-handedness on the issue of Northern Ireland.

     Increasingly, the U.S. involvement in the process is seen as
having a vital role in ensuring the success of the peace
initiative. At press time, two leading members of the Official
Unionist Party, Upper Bann MP David Trimble and Honorary
Secretary Jeffrey Donaldson were due in Washington on September
26 and 27. Party leader James Molyneaux has left for a month long
vacation in Australia but hopes to come to Washington in
November, according to sources.

     Also expected in Washington next week are SDLP leader John
Hume, who is expected to meet with President Clinton while in the
capitol, and Irish Tanaiste (Deputy Leader) Dick Spring, the
Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, who is expected to brief both
the U.N. and senior figures on Capitol Hill on the progress of
the peace talks.

     Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Albert Reynolds will also be in
New York in early October as part of his push on the peace
process. Reynolds will be guest of honor at the Irish Chamber of
Commerce USA banquet at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel on October 6.

     In their brief discussions with the White House, British
officials are citing the recent visa issued to former IRA leader
Joe Cahill and the earlier Gerry Adams visa and stating that
those visas created a perception in Britain and among Unionists
in Northern Ireland that the administration was overtly pro-
nationalist.

     The latest visa battle is about access and duration of stay
in the United States. White House officials stressed that the
timing rather than granting an actual visa is the issue at stake,
and there was no question of Adams being refused a visa.

     At press time Adams had still not applied for a visa,
despite reports to the contrary. Sinn Fein officials stated that
the reason was his own heavy schedule in Ireland and the
difficulty in nailing down final dates.

     Adams last came to the U.S. last February when his arrival
was bitterly opposed by the State Department, FBI, CIA, Justice
Department and the British government. During his 48 hour
whirlwind visit, Adams conducted a media blitz and attended
several Irish American functions.

     This time the British are even more worried about the
visibility of Adams. Clearly unhappy with the high profile Adams
has gotten in the U.S. since the ceasefire, including a  major
interview on page 3 of the New York Times on Sunday, September
18, the British are now attempting to lower the profile of his
second trip here.

                           ***********

     LIKE US, PAISLEY WAS ALSO UNFAIRLY TREATED BY BRITISH

    Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams writes about how British nit-picking
continues to slow down the peace process, and also defends Ian Paisley after he
was booted out of a Downing Street meeting with John Major.

                         by Gerry Adams
                   from The Irish Voice (NYC)
                        Sept. 14-20, 1994

                         **************

     By the time you get reading this column, the IRA's
cessation will be two weeks old. Governments throughout the world
have welcomed this initiative, and there has been universal
recognition of the historic opportunity which has been created.

     In Ireland, and especially in Nationalist Ireland, there is
a palpable sense of expectation and confidence. This was given a
significant boost by the recent meeting at Government buildings
in Dublin between Albert Reynolds, John Hume and myself.

     The Unionists, despite some apparently pragmatic signals
from the UUP (Ulster Unionist Party), have protested against the
cessation.

     The British government? Well, the British government is
behaving the way the British government always does on the
question of Ireland. I am sure that large sections of British
public opinion are bewildered and disappointed by John Major's
response. Even though English is the first language of Mr.
Major's government, he and his ministers have engaged in word
games over the IRA announcement.

     For the first week or so of the cessation, myself and other
Sinn Fein spokespersons sought to reassure Mr. Major when he
queried the meaning of the IRA statement.

     However, despite the best efforts of Mr. Reynolds, John
Hume, President Clinton, Dick Spring, U.S. Vice President Al
Gore, London's nitpicking continues. Each time someone from Sinn
Fein tries to deal with the British requirements, Mr. Major or
Mr. Mayhew or Mr. Hurd change their version of what is required.
It quickly became obvious that their confusion is contrived.
Britannia waives the rules!

     In the immediate wake of the IRA announcement, myself and
colleagues were conscious that the British government may have
been concerned to allay Unionist sensitivities. We were aware of
Mr. Major's leadership difficulties and of the problems with his
own right wing. We knew that the history of the peace process  is
marked by reluctant and minimal movement by London in response to
initiatives which have *all* come from Nationalist Ireland.
(asterisks indicate italicized word in original.)

     We have learned to be patient, but this does not mean that
we are fooled by the British stance. There should be no doubt but
that the niggling and hair-splitting, the claims of confusion by
senior British ministers, are nothing more or less than tactical
maneuvering.

     Other developments--not unconnected to the British stance--
include a statement from the Loyalist death squads which outline
a number of conditions, including assurances on the
constitutional permanency of the Union etc., etc., etc.. This
statement was welcomed by some usually voraciously anti-
Republican elements. It was followed by a bomb at Sinn Fein
councillor John Hurl's home, and earlier in the week by a bomb
in Connolly railway station in Dublin. Many people here are
concerned by the real threat which these attacks present.

     There is concern, also, that the death squads which did not
have a bomb-making capacity or expertise or resources now
suddenly and mysteriously have all these requirements. Given the
reality of collusion, many suspect the hand of British military
intelligence in these recent operations.

     Then there was--on the day of the Dublin meeting of Irish
nationalism--the Ian Paisley debacle at 10 Downing Street. The
perception of this incident is that John Major threw Ian Paisley
out because Mr. Paisley refused to accept John Major's word.

     While understandably many people relished the contrast
between the London and Dublin events and few felt sorry for
Paisley, in my view John Major was wrong. I have no truck for Ian
Paisley's stance. On the contrary, I am implacably opposed to
that mixture of religious/political fundamentalism. But I am also
opposed to the British government seeking to demonize any section
of our people.

     Mr. Paisley--Dr., no--needs to be stood up to. But so does
Mr. Molyneaux. Knockabout English political farce in the drawing
room of 10 Downing Street is no substitute for a political
strategy which aims to deal with Unionism on a democratic basis,
and which seeks to bring Unionism and its leaders into this
country. This cannot be done by exclusion, by marginalization or
by demonization. One has only to look at the failure of these
strategies by Britain against Sinn Fein to see the truth of this
assertion.

     The short-sightedness of the Downing Street farce was
brought into sharp relief when Patrick Mayhew, days later,
addressed an Orange Lodge. This unprecedented "official visit"--
there has always been a relationship between Toryism and
Organeism--was to reassure the Orangemen that the Union was safe.

     I myself had no objections to Mayhew's visit. He can speak to
whoever he likes. But I do know that many Catholics, victims of
Orange triumphalism, were hurt by this episode.

     I spent a morning in Ormeau Road and the Markets area of
South Belfast. These areas are often visited by Orange marches. Indeed there
was one particular incident--condemned by Mayhew--when an Orange parade engaged
in provocative coat-trailing outside the bookmakers shop where five Catholics
were killed by the death squads.

    As well as all of this, there has been a continuous "battle" over border
crossings. As quickly as local people have opened up these blocked or catered
roads, the British Army have been closing them again. Mr. Reynolds has quite
rightly called for a programmatic opening of border crossings. Hopefully, sense
will prevail and the militaristic mandarins of Whitehall will realize that
knee-jerking, quibbling or hair-splitting have no positive part to play in a
peace process.

    Two Mondays ago I went to Belfast courthouse. I had been there before, of
course, both in the Dock and as an observer. On Monday I was there in the
latter capacity for a judgement in the case of the Ballymurphy 7.

    The Ballymurphy 7 are young men from the Ballymurphy area of West Belfast
who have already spent three Christmases in British custody. Two of them were
released earlier this year. The remaining five claimed that their alleged
confessions were forces from them during interrogation.

    On Monday, two more were released and in a contemptible judgement Mr.
Justice Kerr ruled that Tony Garland, Hugh McLoughlin and Beck should go to
trial. Already they have served the equivalent of a six year sentence. They
have all consistently protested their innocence. The scene in the court was
heartbreaking, as the families relief at the release of Danny Pettigrew and
Stephen McMulland, and disbelief and anger at the continued imprisonment of
the others.

    Many independent organizations have expressed grave concern about  the
alleged confessions in the Ballymurphy 7 case. Indeed, in 1991, when these
confessions were obtained, the U.N. Committee Against Torture expressed concern
about the legal regime governing interrogation and the lack of safe-guards for
citizens. These concerns were fully vindicated by yesterday's judgement.

    So as you can see, making peace is not easy. On every front the British
continue to drag their feet. Despite all this, Sinn Fein remains committed to
moving the situation forward. There is plenty of work to be done and lots of
room for optimism.

    There is also room for U.S. opinion to engage in any of the areas of
concern which I have touched upon here.  I hope to be there with you to
discuss these matters before too long. In the meantime, as well as everything
else, I've got to go to an All-Ireland football final. Sorry Dublin, Up Down!

                                   *********

>                      -< The British do not want peace. >-

crap.  As usual.

    The article by Gerry Adams in 1405.84 seems fair enough. It is fairly
    well orientated towards the British government's crap response to the 
    ceasefire. So why title the note `The British do not want peace'.
    That's not what Adams is saying. He like many people is trying to find
    reasons why the British government are dragging their heels.
    
    In the article itself Adams even says "I am sure that large sections of
    British public opinion are bewildered and disappointed by John Major's
    response". In my opinion this is absolutely right. 
    
    He's not bashing the Brits in general - why should he - and more
    pertinently, why should you Holohan?
    
    rgds
    mark 
    

 re. .86

  Simple, because if the British government really
  wanted peace, they would not be dragging their
  feet, and they would stop colluding with the
  loyalist death squads.

                    Mark

    Why don't the British government want peace?
    Why are the British government colluding with the loyalist death
    squads?
    
    In my opinon the British government are dragging their feet, but that
    can surely not simply be for the reason that they don't want peace.
    Be sensible, try and tell us why the British government would
    deliberatly hold up the peace process when they have the opportunity
    to finally separate themselves from the mess that is N.I.
    
    rgds
    Mark

 re. .88

  I don't have the answer for that. All I can do is
  take a look at the past 25 years, and the current
  British reactions to the peace process, and conclude
  that the British government does not really want 
  peace.

  Any group who were serious about peace, would never
  have set pre-conditions on sitting down at the peace
  table with democratically elected representatives of
  the people.  The British government did this, when
  they refused to speak with Sinn Fein.

  Any group who were serious about peace, probably
  wouldn't have their names constantly reported by
  human rights organizations, as colluders with loyalist
  death squads.

  Any group who wanted peace would not be dragging
  their feet at this historic opportunity.

                         Mark

  Looks to me like the British forces are using 
  a unilateral cease-fire by the IRA, to their
  advantage.  How does this help the peace process?


                                The Irish Times
                                September  15, 1994

                      Armagh farm was 'under siege' by army

    A South Armagh man claimed yesterday his farm outside Crossmaglen was the
scene if a virtual siege earlier in the day as the British army mounted a huge
search operation.

   Last night, angry residents of the area gathered at the farm to protest at
the army's action.

   The farmer, who asked not to be named, said he had been in touch with public

representatives on both sides of the Border. "The soldiers sealed off the place

in my absence and were conducting a search of the property when I returned to
the house. They were taking everything apart...Their behaviour was highly
provocative and aggressive."

   It is understood a formal protest has been made to the Northern Ireland
Office and the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin. The search operation
continued for more than two hours. It was not believed anything was found.

    
    That's it.  I'm outa here.
    
    Life's too short to read this crap.  What a waste of a good notes file.
    
    
    Marshall
      
    
    

    re 89, 90
    
    I put it to you Mark H., that the British government has
    no valid reason for not wanting peace. I also put it to you that 
    your analyses of the current events (despite the continuance of the
    ceasefire - which you seem not to want) are clouded by your own 
    hysterical personality and what appears to be a real hatred of
    the British.
    
    The IRA are standing strong on this ceasefire despite
    "supporters" like you who seem bent on stirring things up.
    
    rgds
    Mark S.

    

     Mark H is showing just how isolated he is on this issue,By "solving" 
    the  NI problem the Tories will another term of Government.So they 
    want peace at all costs....They may shed a few crocodile tears on the
    way...but there will be peace between the Republicans and the BG.
    
    

     SCott 

  re. .91, .92, .93

  Make sure you pass your comments along to the
  Irish Times.  Either you don't believe what they
  are reporting, or you have some other interpretation
  for the British actions.

                      Mark

    
    Holohan is doing a Paisley here. Mind you they both have something in
    common.
    
    Holohan has to be seen to be right about the BG not wanting peace so he
    snatches at any bad press he can find. So as long as there are episodes
    like this one (which I quite believe did happen) it adds more fuel to
    his fire.
    
    Sit back and watch, Holohan with egg all over his face will be a great
    laugh in a few months time.

    re 94
    
    See .95

 re. .95

  Snatching at bad press?  Will you do anything to
  excuse the actions of the British government?

  You say you believe it did happen, but you never
  put in a comment as to whether the British were
  wrong or right in doing so.

  You're wrong if you think I don't want to see
  a successful peace process.  My only concern is
  that the British don't want to see a successful
  peace process, as evidenced by their behaviour.

                 Mark

  > You're wrong if you think I don't want to see
  > a successful peace process. 
    
    I'm glad to hear it. I was another who, going entirely on what you've
    been posting, was under the impression that you weren't happy with the
    ceasefire and didn't want peace in NI. Your comment not so long ago
    about Welsh Nationalists strengthened my opinion that you are merely a 
    Brit-hater, rather than someone with any real interest in the events of 
    Northern Ireland.

    re .97
    I deplore some of the tactics and behaviour of the British armed forces
    in NI.
    
    How's that Holohan? unequivocal and straight down the line. It's a pity
    you don't know how to do it!

 re. .99
 
  Good, now that we agree, and deplore the tactics
  that the British forces are continuing to use in
  north east Ireland, what do you think will be the
  impact of these kinds of actions on the peace
  process?

                 Mark

                     <<< Note 1405.100 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >>>


 
>  Good, now that we agree, and deplore the tactics
>  that the British forces are continuing to use in
>  north east Ireland, what do you think will be the
 

   Is "north east Ireland" the same as the Northern Ireland that Mr Adam's
   refers to?

   Stuart

    "Northern Ireland" isn't PC enough for some people. Mind you, I've
    heard Clinton say it. "The six counties" is the favourite in South West
    Ireland.
    
    Dave

    I've always had a problem with "Northern Ireland" because the
    Republic is more north than "Northern Ireland". On the other
    hand, if one says 6 counties, everyone thinks you're a republican.
    Ulster's is closer but obviously incomplete.  How about northeast
    Ulster? Does it really make a difference what we call it?

    Whatever form you use has political connotations. "Northern Ireland"
    and "Ulster" are not strictly geographically/historically correct and 
    imply Britishness. "The six counties" and "North East Ireland" are a 
    mouthful and imply republicanism. "North East Ireland" is not a 
    particularly good description since only part of it lies NE of the
    Republic.
    
    Dave

    re.100
    
    If you read the "Brit" entries carefully, you would notice that nobody
    has ever agreed or disagreed with you over armed forces violence.
    What I and most other people find offensive about your rantings are
    that you think we do think it was acceptable.
    
    And one other thing, what makes you think that the Irish have the
    exclusive rights to Republicanism? :>)
    

    
    Did anybody catch President Boris Yelsins contribution to the present
    inititive on peace...-) -) -) -)....
    
    He stoped (or was it fell) over at Shannon on way back from USA 
    to Russia...
                               Mick
    

Re Boris.



Yeah it seems he was Sleepless in Seattle....





















         ........ and Legless in Limerick 







Des.

Received Via Fax from the Irish American Information Service:

October 2, 1994
 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


           DEPLOYMENT OF PARACHUTE REGIMENT OPPOSED

DUBLIN - The Irish government has joined protests against the deployment of
 the British army's Parachute Regiment on the streets of Belfast. The 1st
 Battalion of the regiment, which was responsible for the deaths of 14
 innocent civilians in Derry on Bloody Sunday in January, 1992, are to patrol
 nationalist areas of west Belfast in the coming weeks.

The main nationalist parties in Northern Ireland, the SDLP and Sinn Fein,
 have objected to the deployment decision and the Department of Foreign
 Affairs in Dublin has also let its concern be known to the British
 government .

The regiment, which is based at: Palace Barracks in Holywood, Co. Down, is
 expected to start patrolling within weeks despite the objections and
 nationalists are claiming that the decision is an indication of the British
 government's intransigent response to the month old IRA ceasefire.

Dr. Joe Hendron, the SDLP for west Belfast said that people were seeking a
 reduction in the number of soldiers on the streets.

"To bring this regiment on to the streets is wrong and shows gross
 insensitivity," Dr. Hendron said.

A Sinn Fein spokesman said that the decision to send in the Parachute
 Regiment was a clear message from the British government that they intended
 to provoke conflict with the residents of west Belfast.

"A month after the IRA ceasefire they should be withdrawing British troops
 off the streets but all the reports we are receiving are of increasing
 harassment," the spokesman said.

Street protests against the deployment and the slow pace of demilitarization
 are expected to take place in the city in the weeks ahead.

                ***************************************

Irish American Information Service

Offices:

Dublin:       4 Dame Court
              Dublin 2 Ireland
              Tel. 011-353-1-774072
              Fax: 011-353-1-6793198

Washington:   National Press Building
              529 14th St., NW Suite 837
              Washington, DC 20045 USA
              Tel. 202-662-8830
              Fax: 202-662-8831

Michigan:     35941 Six Mile Rd.
              Livonia, MI 48152 USA
              Tel. 313-464-4119
              Fax: 313-464-4240

    
    I read about the Para deployment yesterday and, I must admit, it does
    seem grossly insensitive.  I'd like to hear the government's reasons
    for allowing this.
    
    Mark

more from AP/RN   (29 Sept.)

1. Ardoyne family targeted in raid
2. RUC look on as loyalists attack Down team
3. RUC attacks peaceful protest
4. Fermanagh protest over arrest of youth
5. RIR member charged with Carroll home attack


ARDOYNE FAMILY TARGETED IN RAID
by Brian O'Donnell

The rise of the petty-minded and punitive harassment of nationalist families
by the crown forces continues to create great frustration in the nationalist
community.

A young Ardoyne family are feeling the brunt of such mindless acts of
intimidation after having been raided three times in as many weeks.  The first
raid on the family home took place on 28 August, the Sunday prior to the IRA
cessation.

The crown forces burst into the family home and proceeded to ransack it as the
family, which includs several young children, looked on in frustration.  The
family was forced to endure the invasion for nearly three hours.

During the next two raids, the crown forces sledgehammered their way into the
house.  They ripped up the carpet on the stairs, dug large holes in the
bedroom walls, scattered clothes and papers over the floor and then as they
left they locked a steel security gate at the bottom of the stairs in the
house and threw away the key.

Speaking to AP/RN, the father described the raids as "pure harassment.  They
tried to say that they were looking for me, but I have done nothing wrong and
they could have got me at anytime as I constantly pass them in the street."

Local Sinn Fein Councillor Bobby Lavery said " there was absolutely no
justification for such heavy handedness in the present climate.  The house
raids should end immediately and I call on the British government to embark on
an immediate process of demilitarisation."




RUC LOOK ON AS LOYALISTS ATTACK THE DOWN TEAM
by Brian O'Donnell

Nationalists in Kilkeel have condemned the RUC after they allowed a 100-strong
loyalist gang to attack the bus carrying the victorious all-Ireland winning
Down Gaelic football team through the the town.

The attack on Thursday night, 22 September, took place only several hundred
yards from an RUC barracks which had 14 armoured Land Rovers parked outside it.
Yet they failed to act and stop the loyalist crowd attacking the bus.

Footballers, their children and GAA officials had to endure the nightmare
attack while the RUC looked on.  The loyalist crowd threw bottles, stones and
missiles, smashing windows in the bus and showering the occupants with broken
glass.  The cavalcade also consisted of several cars and minibuses which had
their door panels and windows kicked in and smashed as they passed the
loyalists.

The bus, which was taking the team around the county, had just left Attical
for Kilkeel and turned off the Scrogg Road and into Newry Street in the town
where it was forced to run the gauntlet of the loyalist mob.

Players feared for their lives during the attack.  Angry at the lack of crown
forces' protection they accused the RUC of standing by and not intervening
during the incident.  Youngsters on the bus were in a hysterical state after
the attack and adults spent several minutes reassuring them and calming them
down.

Newry Sinn Fein Councillor Brendan Curran condemned the inaction of the RUC
and accused them of colluding with the loyalist mob:

"There can be little doubt that the loyalist mob were facilitated by the RUC.
This is the classical Burntollet-type meeting place for loyalists intent on
attacking nationalists as they come home from football games and other such
gatherings.  This, together with the fact that the mob had been grouped at
that point for several hours prior to the attack should have alerted the RUC
to a potentially-dangerous situation."

Councillor Curran also condemned the actions of the loyalists who, later that
night, subjected nationalist residents of Kilkeel to terror and intimidation.
Pubs in nationalist parts of the town had their windows broken by loyalists
while, at the same time, RIR patrols drove through nationalist areas goading
residents as they went.

"These are dispicable acts carried out by loyalists with the backing of state
forces."




RUC ATTACKS PEACEFUL PROTEST

Over 100 people marched to the RUC barracks on the Oldpark Road on Tuesday
evening, 27 September, to highlight the fact that loyalist death squads were
carrying out their attacks on local nationalists in full view of a 60-foot
high RUC watchtower.

The demonstrators held a 30-minute rally at the main gate of the heavily-
fortified barracks.  Councillor Bobby Lavery addressed the crowd, watched over
by a hostile group of RUC members, some of whom indulged in sectarian
chanting.

Trouble flared when four RUC members grabbed one of the women in the crowd.
Her husband, Sean, a son of Richard McIlkenny, one of the Birmingham Six,
remonstrated with them and was punched and thrown to the ground.  Later, a
30-strong snatch squad from the RUC mobile support unit arrested Sean McIlkenny
Two elderly women were physically assaulted at Ardoyne Plac during the arrest.
The violence of the RUC's action contrasted with the peaceful demonstrators who
blocked the Oldpark Road for some time demanding McIlkenny's release.

After three hours in custody, McIlkenny was charged with assaulting three RUC
members, an old tactic used frequently by the RUC to deflect attention away
from their violence.  However, now aware that five news camera teams were
covering the incident, the RUC issued orders to a group of seven RUC members
still shouting: "We'll finish this you Fenian scum," to disperse from the
front of the barracks.

Following Tuesday's arrest of McIlkenny, two more people were arrested from
their homes on Wednesday morning.

"One of those arrested was dragged from his home dressed only in his underpants
in tactics reminiscent of the internment arrests.  There was absolutely no
justification for the crown forces' attack on the protestors and the charges
this morning are no more than a cynical attempt by the RUC to cover their
tracks," said Bobby Lavery.




FERMANAGH PROTEST OVER ARREST OF YOUTH
by Brian O'Donnell

The arrest and assault of a 19-year-old Lisnaskea man on the morning of
Wednesday, 21 September, enraged local people, who held a picket, protesting
at the arrest.  The protest was held outside the crown forces' barracks in the
town at 7pm that night.

In an act of terror, the crown forces, led by the RUC, raided the home of Sean
Gleeson in the early hours of Wednesday.  They verbally abused his mother and
other members of the family.  His family have complained at the heavy handed
approach of the RUC, who they state were out to cause as much offence and
upset as possible.

Fermanagh Sinn Fein Councillor Robin Martin was in the house at the time of
the raid and told AP/RN the family were treated "with contempt and extreme
maliciousness", by the RUC.

During his detention in Strand Road RUC Barracks, Derry, the teenager was
intensively questioned and his life was repeatedly threatened.  On one
occasion, RUC detectives said that his details would be passed on to the
notorious loyalist "King Rat".

Gleeson was subjected to constant physical and verbal abuse and in one
instance a steel chair was placed on the heal of his foot while  one RUC
officer sat on it.  He was also slapped around the head and face during
interrogation.

Despite being released without charge, on Saturday, 24 September, he was
rearrested within minutes and brought to Enniskillen and held until Monday
morning.

"There was no need for the crown forces to arrest this young man," commented
Martin.  "This is pure vindictiveness".




RIR MEMBER CHARGED WITH CARROLL HOME ATTACK
by Brian O'Donnell

A member of the RIR will appear in Armagh Magistrate's Court on 18 October,
charged with the latest attack on the home of Armagh pensioner Theresa
Carroll.  The attack took place around 5 am on the morning of Saturday, 24
September.  Eyewitnesses say that a car pulled up outside 69-year-old Theresa
Carroll's Callanbridge Estate home where a passenger got out and lobbed a
brick through the living-room window.

It is thought that the RIR soldier was arrested less than an hour after the
attack.  Family members told AP/RN that a wallet belonging to a British
soldier was found at the bottom of the garden of the Carroll home.

The Carroll home has been attacked before by loyalists.  In June of last year,
the UVF threw a holdall containing a flask filled with two pounds of
commercial explosive through the same front window.  Theresa Carroll was
awakened by the sound of breaking glass and entered the room to find that the
holdall had been caught in the venetian blinds.  Two weeks after that attack,
another soldier in the RIR, 24-year-old Neil Thomas Irwin, was charged with
attempted murder of Carroll.

"Why do they keep on attacking my home?  I live on my own and they know it,"
said Theresa Carroll.

Theresa Carroll's daughter told AP/RN that she is now at her wits end and can
no longer live in the house because she fears for her safety: "She has applied
for a transfer because it has upset her so.  My mother didn't sleep in the
house for several weeks after the last attack.  And this has been the last
straw for her."

Sinn Fein Councillor Noel Sheridan told AP/RN that this latest evidence of RIR
involvement in sectarian attacks showed the need for the disbandment of the
sectarian regiment.

Another member of the RIR who shot a 19-year-old Catholic through the head at
point-blank range has been found guilty of manslaughter and jailed for just
four years in Belfast's Crumlin Road Court.

The killing of the Catholic teenager James Bradin (19) happened in the early
hours of 12 July, 1992 ath an Eleventh night bonfire on the Silverstream Road
in the Ballysillan area of North Belfast.

The 37-year-old private, Alan O'Leary, whose address was given as Drumadd
Barracks, claims that the killing occured after he went to help his daughter's
friend, whom he claimed was being attacked by a mob.

O'Leary had his gun in his waist band despite drinking ten cans of beer.  He
told a member of the RUC after the incident that he was trained to believe
that it was safe to carry his personal issue firearm without the safety catch
on.

O'Leary told the court that he only intended to scare Bradin and that the gun
went off accidently as he bent over.  This conflicted with forensic evidence
that showed that the gun was no further than six inches away from the victims
head.

However, Diplock judge Carswell accepted O'Leary's explaination of events and
sentenced him to a lenient four years imprisonment.  Carswell excused the
killing claiming that it had been "an act of great folly" on the part of
O'Leary.

Yet another member of that trustworthy organisation with all the nice adds on
the television -- the Royal Irish Regiment -- has been sentenced to three
months imprisonment by a Scottish court after he was caught trying to smuggle
a loaded handgun onto a ferry.

Ronald Thompson, of Monkstown, Newtownabbey in Belfast, was stopped as he
boarded the Stena/Sealink ferry at Stranraer en route for Larne.  He was found
in possession of a Glock 17 semi-automatic 9mm pistol, which was loaded and
had a round in the chamber.  Thompson, a serving member of the 9th RIR, was
found guilty of possessing the gun and ammunition without a valid firearms
certificate although no mention was made in court about the possible
destination of the lethal weapon.

Apologising for the predicament he was in, Sheriff James Smyth of Stranraer
Sheriff's Court, told Thompson that: "It gives me no pleasure to see you in
the dilemma you are in today but I have to take it seriously."  The judge
added that he believed this would be an end to the matter as he had been told
that no courtmartial would take place.

    A Conservative MP (although not a member of the Cabinet) is saying that
    the Government will probably make an announcement, after this week's
    Conservative Party Conference, to the effect that they believe that the
    IRA ceasefire is permanent. I have not heard any denials from the
    Government.

    I heard on the lunchtime news that a bomb went off in a Catholic-owned
    pub in Belfast at @00:30 this morning. Fortunately no-one was injured.
    The UVF are claiming responsibility.
    A man has also been shot in the legs in a loyalist area of Belfast.

Received from the Irish American Unity Conference.  

                  ********************************

     PRESS RELEASE                           OCTOBER 20, 1994


                  WHY DOES BRITAIN REMAIN OUT IN THE COLD?

For years Britain has been taunting the IRA to come in from the cold and
 that their case would be heard via the democratic process.  Well, Sinn
 Fein, who has never regarded themselves as being out in the cold, has
 persuaded the IRA to declare a ceasefire which is now seven weeks old and
 holding despite lots of provocation.  Under pressure, the loyalist death
 squads have also declared a ceasefire and they too have come in from the
 cold.

Guess what! the only one still out in the cold is the one that has always
 given the cold shoulder to the Irish nation - Britain. With all the
 paraphernalia of war Britain still behaves like the occupying army, that it
 surely is, in the streets and countrysides of Ireland's six northeastern
 counties. The promise of a generous response to an IRA ceasefire is
 anything but generous as the behavior of the army is provocative and
 aggressive.

As the only armed force now in operation, the British continue to conduct
 house raids, road blocks, saturation patrolling, firing plastic bullets,
 arrests and harassment in nationalist areas. In an attempt to regain the PR
 initiative the British propaganda machine hypes the cosmetic changes of
 berets rather than helmets and opening border roads.  The hard facts are
 that the beretted soldiers still use their weaponry and they have reclosed
 more roads than they have opened since the ceasefire. Hundreds of roads
 still remain closed which is outrageous.

This behavior on the part of the British is no surprise to Irish
 nationalists.  They have been down that road before many times.  But what
 of the international community?   Is this the kind of response they
 expected from a cessation of hostilities?  What is Britain's motive for
 dragging its political feet?

Obviously, Britain does not want to lose the Unionist votes that keep the
 tottering Tories in power or to aggravate the Tory right wing.  It is as
 clear as daylight that Britain has not learned from its colonial experience
 in Ireland even as we approach the year 2000.  The Unionists were
 embarrassed with the IRA ceasefire in case they would have to talk to Sinn
 Fein, so the British and the Unionists need each other and scratch each
 others backs.

The sooner Britain is made to realize that the colonial solutions of the
 past are as much out-of-date in the Irish situation as they were in the
 rest of her illgotten empire the better.  Britain must be made to realize
 that the changes that have taken place in her former colonies, like the
 Middle East and South Africa, will also come to Ireland.  For the first
 time the United States is watching British behavior with more than a
 passing interest.

It is up to Irish America to see that U.S. interest is maintained.  Britain
 must not be allowed to waste this opportunity for peace.  Its troops and
 sectarian police must be removed from nationalist areas. The Border roads
 must be reopened, all surveillance towers must be dismantled and prisoners
 released. Raiding peaceful homes and harassing nationalists is not the way
 to promote peace.

It is high time that Britain came in from the cold and respond to the
 wishes of both the British and the Irish people - Get out of Ireland -
 Permanently.

           Daniel P. O'Kennedy, National Vice President and Press Officer.

    
    You should have held on to that one Mark.  The border roards are being
    reopened, the troops are being scaled down, talks will begin before the
    New Year.  What is more, EVERYONE has acclaimed John Majors speech on
    friday as being positive. (Everyone except Ian Paisley but what do you
    expect ?).  
    
    Hopefully, the Irish-Americans will see the news pictures of John Major
    being warmly greeted by the Nationalists in Newry and realise that
    "troops out" alone is not a solution.  Everyone else seems to accept
    that now.  
    
    I am not a Tory.  In fact what John Majors party have done to this
    country makes me sick at times.  I do however believe that he has been
    immensely brave in grasping the nettle of the NI problem.  Very few
    British politicians have given the problem the attention it deserves
    for fear that it might lose them votes.  To Major's credit, he has not
    done that.
    
    

    re .113
    
    As the only armed force now in operation, the British continue to
    conduct
     house raids, road blocks, saturation patrolling, firing plastic
    bullets, ??????????????????????????????????????
    
    
    The hard facts are that the beretted soldiers still use their weaponry
    ?????
    
    Where is cloud cuckoo land Holohan? obviously the east coast! 
    No wonder Americans are known as Septic Tanks in the south of England
    :>)

    Re: .-2 & .-3
    
    Border crossings are happily being reopened.
    
    Troop levels are not being reduced however.
    
    Re: .-1
    
    >why do Americans talk so much crap
    >No wonder Americans are known as Septic Tanks in the south of England
    >:>)
    
    Oh boy, here we go again. :v{ 
    
    /g

>    Oh boy, here we go again. :v{ 
    
I don't support the sentiment, but that's what the British contingent
have had to put up with constantly from the likes of Holohan.  Nice,
innit?

Chris.

 re.  .115
 Regarding my note posted Oct. 21st.
  
 Are you denying that house raids were occuring?

 Are you denying that road blocks are still occuring?

 Are you denying that saturation patrolling was still
 occuring?

 Are you denying that the British forces fired plastic
 bullets at crowds, after the IRA had announced their
 uni-lateral ceasefire?

 I have news articles that document all of these
 situations.

 Now, it might be the case that this weekend, British
 policy (forced by the international community) has
 begun to slowly change.  But, as George has pointed
 out, I don't remember seeing anything about a
 permanent British withdrawal, or a permanent end to
 British collusion with loyalist death squads, or a
 permanent end to the use of jury-less trials, or a
 permanent end to the assumption that a silent man is
 a guilty man?



                       Mark

              BRITAIN TO MEET I.R.A. BY END OF YEAR
           Major says truce earns 'exploratory talks'
                         by John Darnton
            New York Times. Saturday, Oct. 22, 1994

                       *******************

     Prime Minister John Major accepted the seven-week-old Irish
Republican Army cease-fire as genuine and said that if it
continued Britain would hold 'exploratory talks' with I.R.A.
representatives before the end of the year.

     His commitment means the struggle for peace in Northern
Ireland is soon to enter a new phase--direct talks between the
British government and Sinn Fein, the political arm for the
organization London has long reviled as terrorist.

     Although Sinn Fein leaders had never declared the cease-
fire they announced on Sept. 1 to be 'permanent', as the British
government had demanded, Mr. Major insisted today that their
actions "have been more compelling than their words."

     As a consequence, he said he was now prepared to make "a
working assumption that the cease-fire is intended to be
permanent." He went on, "If the I.R.A. continues to show that it
has ended its terrorism, then we shall be ready to convene
exploratory talks before this year is out."

     The Prime Minister's long awaited response, in a speech to
businessmen during a trip to Belfast, was coupled with a series
of other steps intended to prod the peace effort in Northern
Ireland now that terrorists on both sides, Catholic republicans
and Protestant loyalists, appear to have put down their weapons.

     One step was the immediate opening of the 88 roads still
closed between Northern Ireland and the Irish REpublic to the
south. The roads were sealed by the British over the last 20
years in an attempt to cut off escape and supply routes for the
I.R.A. along the 300 mile border.

     Sixteen roads have been opened in recent weeks, and the
closure of the remaining ones--in addition to being a symbol of
the divide between the British-rules north and the independent
south--had caused flare-ups between British security forces and
Irish republicans trying to remove the roadblocks.

     Another step announced by Mr. Major was the lifting of
"exclusion orders" that prevented Gerry Adams and Martin
McGuinness, the two top Sinn Fein leaders, from traveling to
other parts of Britain. The move was demanded by Sinn Fein but it
is also necessary if peace talks are to be held anywhere other
than Northern Ireland.

     Exclusion orders were instituted to try to keep people
listed as terrorists out of England, Scotland and Wales. They
will remain in force for others for the times being, Mr. Major
said. A total of 72 people in Sinn Fein, the I.R.A. and other
terrorist groups, including Protestant ones are currently
excluded.

     Mr. Major's concession were immediately welcome by Sinn
Fein. "At last, a move in the right direction from the British
Prime Minister," said Mr. McGuinness, speaking on ITN television.
"I broadly welcome what he has to say."

     But Mr. Mc Guinness renewed Sinn Fein's long-standing demand
that British soldiers, who back up police officers on patrol in
Northern Ireland, be removed. "We are moving now to a situation
where many in the British army establishment and the British
government will accept that the next part of this process is to
bring these soldiers off the streets," he said.

     Mr. Major said today that this would happen eventually but
not right away. "The need for soldiers to patrol the streets will
continue to be reviewed in relation to the threat and it is our
intent to return to exclusively civilian policing," he said.

       Not counting secret contacts between the Government and
Sinn Fein in 1993, and perhaps in 1981, the last time there was a
publicly acknowledged meeting between British and Sinn Fein
officials was in 1975. Three years earlier, Mr. Adams and Mrs.
McGuinness were flown in a Royal Air Force plane to England for
talks with a British Government minister in a Chelsea townhouse.

     The Prime Minister's speech was praised by Tony Blair, the
opposition Labour leader, and by John Hume, who heads the
mainstream Catholic nationalist party in Northern Ireland, and by
Albert Reynolds, the Irish Prime Minister.

     The speech before the Institute of Directors in Northern
Ireland, a businessmen's association, was given in the Europa
Hotel, a building bombed more times than anyone can remember--at
least 30, according to the staff--in the past 25 years of
sectarian strife in Northern Ireland, but is now getting a $10
million restoration.

     In his address Mr Major had something for everyone. To the
unionists among the Protestant majority of 950,000 who want to
stay a part of Britain, he repeated a pledge to hold a referendum
on any proposals that might emerge from talks with all the
parties.

     To the I.R.A., fighting for the province's 650,000 Catholics
to unite it with the Irish Republic, he offered talks and other
concessions. And to the Protestant paramilitary groups, which
declared their own cease-fire a week ago, he said the Government
would "enter into contact" with them so they could "take part in
public life" once they have demonstrated a continuing commitment
to peace.

     He also promised to restore "local  accountability" through
a proposal to set up a new Northern Ireland assembly. He said
that a new package of aid would be coming from the European Union
and that the Government would convene a conference of
international investors in Belfast in December.

     Once the Protestant militias had declared a cease-fire last
Thursday, Mr. Major had little choice but to give in to pressured
from Dublin, Washington and elsewhere to get the talks going,
lest his caution be read recalcitrance.

     The "exploratory talks" that he referred to would be a
meeting involving British civil servants, the intelligence
representatives and Sinn Fein to talk about, among other things,
handing in weapons and explosives. For the British, that is th
next critical step. For the I.R.A., logic would suggest that that
would be among the last things they would agree to.

     ASked about giving up weapons, Mr. McGuinness said today
that issue should be a subject for later, full-scale
negotiations. "I think both governments have accepted that these
will be matters for some way down the road," he said.

     Mr Major said today that the British and Irish governments,
which began the joint peace initiative last December, would
confer on "how guns and explosives can best be deposited and
decommissioned."

     Ken Maginnis, a leader in the Ulster Unionist Party who
specializes in security matter, estimates that the I.R.A. has 100
tons of arms and two tons of the commercial explosive known as
Semtex.


                          _____________

posted in ...

                            IRL-NEWS
               an interactive list serv on Ireland

                   to subscribe, send message:
                  subscribe irl-news your name

                            send to:
                   [email protected]

	Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
	
	Did anyone tell Martin (or maybe it's Martina) 
	
	.
	.
	.
	.
       Not counting secret contacts between the Government and
Sinn Fein in 1993, and perhaps in 1981, the last time there was a
publicly acknowledged meeting between British and Sinn Fein
officials was in 1975. Three years earlier, Mr. Adams and Mrs.
							^^^^^^^
McGuinness were flown in a Royal Air Force plane to England for
talks with a British Government minister in a Chelsea townhouse.
	.
	.
	.
	.
	.

    re.16
    I did put a smiley on it George or is everyone as humourless as
    Holohan?
    
    The point is, all that drivel about "i've got evidence and news
    articles that say"........... come from the same mischevious sources
    as the rest of the smelly stuff and I don't think that it helps anyone
    who is trying to grasp the current situation in NI to read this stuff.
    Holohan appears to be the only one with the "alleged" evidence and he
    might as well be on the moon thats how far he is from reality.
    
    So lets be positive here. I would never support a Tory regime but JM is
    to be commended for defying the right wing and saying enough is enough
    in NI. He wants the troops out, we all do and being a protestant Scot,
    I can tell you that the vast majority of us don't care about the
    intransigence of our opposite numbers in NI.
    
    Give Ireland back to the Irish, they know how to enjoy themselves:>),,
    and while we're at it....
    an assembly for Scotland and a republic in the British Isles. That way
    we would cure a lot of the problems in this country as well!
    
    Bill

    Bill, your smiley wasn't smiling enough ;v))
    
    Well said about John Major - I do give him credit.  He's gone
    the extra mile - something Maggie would never have done or any
    other Tory.
    
    Septically yours,
    George ;v))

re. 121

 Dear Willy Rid-X,

>The point is, all that drivel about "i've got evidence and news
>articles that say"

 Heaven forbid, evidence, news articles, human rights
 reports.

>Give Ireland back to the Irish, they know how to 
>enjoy themselves:>),

 I vote we give you back to your English masters.
 If you had any kind of backbone, you'd want more 
 than just an assembly for Scotland.

                       Mark

re .122,

is that a smiley with a double chin?  :)

re .123,

anybody want to support a campaign for independance for the Kingdom
of Northumbria?  Geordie home rule, and all that...

Chris.

    Don't worry about my backbone Holohan, I can walk upright without an
    Armalite stuffed down my pants. :>))))
    
    Willy Rid-X,  eh, could somebody translate this please? Is it a Hotlips
    Holohan humourism :>))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
    
    As for Scotland, nationalism ought to be a thing of the past which is
    why an assembly would be quite adequate and it is not far from being a
    reality. Scotland still enjoys it's own banknotes, laws, culture etc
    despite attempts by the English to change it.
    A federal Europe should be what we are aiming for. I believe Ireland is
    comitted to that aim, as are many Scottish politicians.
    
    
    Wullie.

    >>         <<< Note 1405.116 by TALLIS::DARCY "Alpha Migration Tools" >>>
    >>                       -< Let's be positive OK? >
    >>    Troop levels are not being reduced however.
    
    
    Maybe not the levels, put the prescence.  Read the following, it's very
    positive.
    
    
    
    RTw  10/24 1945  Troops move from Northern Ireland's borders

    By Martin Cowley

    LONDONDERRY, Northern Ireland, Oct 25 (Reuter) - For the first time in
    25 years, British troops have vanished from the streets of Londonderry,
    the city where Northern Ireland's current "troubles" started when
    sectarian violence overwhelmed the local police force in 1969.

    Unprecedented ceasefires declared by Irish Republican Army guerrillas
    and Protestant extremists have lasted for weeks, and helped accelerate
    talks on the future of the province.

    On Monday no troops could be seen in Londonderry, the second largest
    city in the British-ruled province and just five miles (eight km) from
    the border with the Irish Republic.

    A British army spokesman said troop levels in the province remained at
    18,500. "There is no question of the numbers of troops in Northern
    Ireland being reduced," he said.

    Motorists said that for the first time they were permitted to drive
    through British army checkpoints near the city without being stopped.

    On the southern Irish side of the border, five permanent security
    checkpoints were closed after an assessment of the security threat
    following the ceasefires, according to a senior police officer.

    "The threat has diminished," chief superintendent Denis Fitzpatrick of
    Irish police told Irish radio.

    Security analysts said the reduction in border security was further
    evidence the British and Irish governments accepted that the IRA and
    their Protestant extremist foes were committeto giving up violence.

    Many border crossings have been closed for years, with police saying
    IRA guerrillas could use them.

    British Prime Minister John Major and his Irish counterpart, Albert
    Reynolds, said they had narrowed differences between them on a key
    document outlining a political solution for Northern Ireland's future
    after talks at Major's country residence.

    Speaking after three hours of talks at Chequers, the British prime
    minister's official country residence northwest of London, they
    declined to put a deadline on when the so-called "framework document"
    would be ready or to detail any stumbling blocks.

    "The gap is narrower today than it was yesterday," Reynolds said.

    Major and Reynolds said they were confident of producing an agreement
    that would satisfy both governments and the Protestant and Roman
    Catholic communities in Northern Ireland.

    Progress was also made in talks in the United States, where visiting
    Northern Irish politicians who have connections with the outlawed
    Protestant extremist groups said they were willing to talk to the IRA's
    political wing, Sinn Fein.

    "I recognise we will have to sit down, put the past behind us and take
    the chance to build a new, exciting future," Gary McMichael of the
    Ulster Democratic Party (UDP) told a meeting of the National Committee
    on American Foreign Policy in New York at the start of a visit to the
    United States.

    "It will be very difficult to sit opposite Gerry Adams (the Sinn Fein
    leader), but I will do so," said McMichael, whose father was killed by
    the IRA.

    REUTER

    

>    LONDONDERRY, Northern Ireland, Oct 25 (Reuter) - For the first time in
>    25 years, British troops have vanished from the streets of Londonderry,

I heard last night unconfirmed rumors about troops had been retired from
Derry... it seems not exactly so, yet it is enough to fill my heart with hope !

How is it doing today, and elsewhere ? just wondering where they did vanish to ?

mf

    re .123
    Typical, Holohan won't agree with anybody on anything. He has no
    sympathy for Scots, who have like the Irish been been victims of
    English expansion. I have found in the past that there is no point
    in trying to curry favour with people with such extreme nationalist
    views. Holohan - You're a Nazi!. You are no better than the nutters
    who rant on about King Billy.
    
    rgds
    Mark Stretch

 re. .128

  Hey Stretch, what are you talking about?  I don't
  have any sympathy for Willy Arthur.  Any Scot on
  the other hand, who wants his own nation, free 
  from English rule, I do sympathize with.  Willy
  Arthur only wants a partial solution.

                      Her Mark

               ******************************

        PRESS RELEASE                   OCTOBER 26, 1994

       THE OPPRESSED MUST DISARM - BUT NOT THE OPPRESSOR

 Typical of British arrogance, the first important item on the
 agenda of the peace process for Britain is for the IRA to surrender
 its weapons and especially the semtex explosives.  John Major
 stressed the semtex because of the damage to the financial district
 in London. To him that is more important than guns that only kill
 people.

 Oh yes, they also want to disarm the loyalist death squads despite
 the fact that their weapons were supplied by British intelligence
 operative, Brian Nelson.  Of course, if the loyalists were disarmed
 they could be rearmed at short notice by the Brits as they have
 done for years going back to 1912.  In all this there is no talk of
 disarming the main culprit, Britain itself that is the cause of all
 the problem.

 Were it not for the fact that a foreign army occupies Irish soil
 and abused the nationalist population there would be no IRA, no
 guns, no semtex and no killings during the past 25 years or however
 far back one cares to trace British interference in Irish affairs.

 Nationalists were being killed even before the present phase of
 armed conflict began with the civil rights march on October 5,
 1968.  The first explosions, the first civilian deaths, the first
 police death were all at the hands of pro-British loyalists.  When
 peaceful marches, patterned after the civil rights campaign in the
 US, took place in N. Ireland they were met by the armed might of
 the British establishment in their "B Specials", the Police (RUC)
 and the loyalist thugs.

 Who then was there to protect the Nationalists?  Oh the British
 army was augmented ostensibly to protect people but in reality it
 was to prop up the failed entity that they created in 1920.  If the
 IRA was to disarm now in advance of an overall settlement who would
 protect the nationalists in the event of an outbreak of violence?
 The British? The RUC? The Dublin Government?

 Only when the last Brit has left Ireland is it time to disarm all
 the paramilitaries.  British guns divided Ireland and it is British
 guns that maintain that division and it is the British who keep
 Irish people apart and from settling the differences created by the
 British.  There can be no real peace except in an All-Ireland
 context as 74 years of partition has proven a disaster.

 Any cross-border institutions must in the short term include the
 judiciary, the police, the civil service and financial institutions
 to end discrimination in all aspects of life.  It is not enough to
 have cosmetic changes in tourism, energy, fisheries and the like.

 As the Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds, said, "We must get it right this
 time."


 Daniel P. O'Kennedy, National Vice President and Press Officer.

    if we keep looking back !!!

>                     <<< Note 1405.118 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >>>
>
>
> re.  .115
> Regarding my note posted Oct. 21st.
>  
> Are you denying that house raids were occuring?
    
    
    Imagine raiding the houses of suspected criminals.  Jeez, before you
    know it, they'll be arresting drug dealers and child molesters.
    
>
> Are you denying that road blocks are still occuring?
>
    Yes.  So stick that up yer keeshter.
    
> Are you denying that saturation patrolling was still
> occuring?

    Try asking again, this time in English.
    
    
> Are you denying that the British forces fired plastic
> bullets at crowds, after the IRA had announced their
> uni-lateral ceasefire?

    I have heard no such reports.  Your pals Gerry and Martin haven't
    mentioned it either in their numerous TV appearancess so I put this
    question down to you taking dodgy drugs or something.

    
    
    This really takes the bloody biscuit.  Who the hell do you think you
    are asking me questions when your record on answering simple ones is
    diabolical ?    I'll answer you in the same McGuinnes-esque
    content-free drivel that you are fond of -
    
    "I can't answer your question because I don't speak for the British
     Army."
    
    
    Mark

    re .128
    
    hey Holohan, who needs your sympathy? Any Scot who wants independance
    has every legitimate right to seek it, some of my immediate family are
    staunch SNP supporters. So whats the beef? I just happen to disagree
    that independance is the way forward. I also happen to think that
    Irish independance IS the way forward because it's a Republic free of
    all the stuff that you loathe about the English establishment.
    
    I'll give you an analogy because it's pointless asking a question.
    "Bought and sold for English gold" as one very famous Scottish bard
    once wrote. And he's not very wrong. The crowns were joined in 1603 and
    the parliaments in 1707. Now here's the bit that you won't like. When
    Ireland is free of "Brits" as you put it, are you going to start a
    campaign to give up the piece of land, that your home in Massachusetts
    is undoubtedly built on, back to the first Red Indian that walks down
    the street? I don't bloody well think so!
    They lost, we lost, I sincerely hope Ireland wins.
    
    Now stop being a bloody hypocrite.

    re .133. Clever answer. However, I fear H. will only read the first
    line of it like he does with all the other notes.  He certainly won't
    get as far as the bit about his house being on red indian land. But,
    I'm sure he'll entertain us all with a reply in his "hysterical
    wee lassie manner" anyway.
                                                         

 re. .134

"He certainly won't
 get as far as the bit about his house being on red indian land. But,
 I'm sure he'll entertain us all with a reply in his "hysterical
 wee lassie manner" anyway."

 What's a red indian?  Someone from India who is 
 embarrased?  Or is that the British word for a
 native American?

 First a Nazi, now I'm a wee lassie?

 If Willy was referring to Native Americans, you'll
 find that it was the British who managed to kill
 most of them in this area.  Either by disease, or
 with a bullet.  The dead don't make many land claims.

                          Mark

Funny, innit.  If it's something to be proud of it's an American acheivement,
otherwise it's the fault of the British colonials.  Strange, that, but I guess
we're all pretty used to double standards from some people.

Chris.

    re .135
    "First a Nazi, now I'm a wee lassie?"
    
    You missed the word "Hysterical".
    
    rgds
    Mark

    Holohan, i wouldn't call you either of these, but you are a hypocrite.
    And a historian when it suits you.
    
    Indeed most of your notes are references to history one way or another.
    

Mark is correct, at least for New England. Now the rest of the US, that's 
a different story.

M

Evening Press, 28 October 1994.

British rapped on Forum 'snub'.

Tara Buckley.

The British government stood condemned today over its decision to
"boycott" today's inaugural meeting of the Forum for Peace and
Reconciliation in Dublin by instructing its Ambassador here not to attend.

A shadow hung over the historic gathering at Dublin Castle following the
decision not to allow British Ambassador David Blatherwick and
Conservative MP and Co-Chairman of the British/Irish Interparliamentary
Body, Sir Peter Temple Morris to attend as observers.

The British snub represents a double blow to the Forum - devised by
Taoiseach Albert Reynolds as a key body to help set the agenda for a
permanent peace - following the decision of the main Unionist parties in
the North to stay away.

Tanaiste Dick Spring and Forum chairwoman Judge Catherine McGuinness
condemned the British decision as "unfortunate".

The Government's disappointment over the British boycott was clear as the
38 members gathered with 300 invited guests including diplomats and
representatives of Church and State from the North and South for the
opening session of the Forum at 11.00 this morning.

"It is very unfortunate and I would far prefer if the British/Irish
Interparliamentary tier and the British government was represented at the
Forum this morning," said Mr Spring.

He defended the Forum, which has been roundly criticised as a "pan-
nationalist" gathering "It is not an expensive talking shop - and it is
certainly not a pan-nationalist Forum;" said Mr Spring.

The Tanaiste said the Forum had a very positive contribution to make in
setting up a "positive background for the peace process" The Forum will
"tease out' the problems that exist between the various communities both
North and South as part of the search for an agreed solution, he added.

The Forum chairwoman, Catherine McGuinness, said the British
government's decision was "giving fuel to criticism that they don't want
to move on" with the peace process.

She also expressed disappointment over the Unionist decision not to attend,
saying, "There is no entry test that they have to accept the Nationalist
position".

Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams who was leading his party's five-strong
team of members and alternates, also criticised the British government for
consistently trying to deflate the momentum of the peace process.

ln the magnificent surroundings of St. Patrick's Hall, Taoiseach Albert
Reynolds launched the Forum as a significant step in the peace process and
introduced Judge McGuinness, who made the opening address.

She was followed by the leaders of all the parties attending the gathering:
Mr Reynolds, Fianna Fail; John Hume, SDLP; John Bruton, Fine Gael:
Dick Spring, Labour; Gerry Adams, Sinn Fein; Mary Harney, Progressive
Democrats; John Alderdice, Alliance and Proinsias De Rossa, Democratic
Left, who each made ten-minute statements setting out their partys' aims
for the Forum.

These were followed by senator Gordon Wilson, Trevor Sargent, Green
Party, Neil Blaney and David Norris representing Independent TD's and
Senators and John Lowry of the Workers' Party who each made five-
minute contributions.

Mr Reynolds set out the role which the Forum can play in contribution to
a permanent peace.

                  ****************************

For Immediate Release
 November 7, 1994

           BRITISH ACCUSED OF STALLING PEACE PROCESS

 DUBLIN - The British government has been accused of stalling the
 peace process by claiming that it may take three years to complete
 the reopening of  border roads.

The Northern Ireland Office (NLO) said last week that it could take
 three years to complete the program because of the need to design
 and build several bridges, including Aghalane Bridge on the main
 road from Enniskillen to Cavan town in the south.

While SDLP deputy leader, Seamus Mallon said the claim was "quite
 ridiculous" campaigners to the fore of the road opening protests
 said that political reasons lay behind the delays.

Michael McPhillips of the Fermanagh-Monaghan Community Association
 said that in his area not one of the eighty-eight closed roads had
 yet been reopened despite the announcement last month by Secretary
 of State, Sir Patrick Mayhew that most border crossings were to
 reopen.

"There really needs to be a big push. There was 12 million spent on
 eight checkpoints in south Fermanagh two years ago, and that was all
 done in three and a half months. 'The people here will not believe
 this. They were delighted at the NIO announcement but this has
 thrown a spanner in the works," McPhillips said.

"The reopening of the border roads will mean enormous economic
 benefits for the people. At the moment, for people living in the
 Leitrim-Fermanagh area there is a 29 mile drive for a three mile
 journey," he said.

According to Seamus Mallon, the army would ensure that work was done
 promptly if it was a security matter while Sinn Fein spokesperson
 Mitchel McLaughlin said that the NIO admission was a reflection of
 the British government's attitude to the peace process which he said
 has been one of "hesitancy, stalling and delay."

                  ****************************
 Irish American Information Service

Offices:

Dublin:       4 Dame Court
              Dublin 2 Ireland
              Tel. 011-353-1-774072
              Fax: 011-353-1-6793198

Washington:   National Press Building
              529 14th St., NW Suite 837
              Washington, DC 20045 USA
              Tel. 202-662-8830
              Fax: 202-662-8831

Michigan:     35941 Six Mile Rd.
              Livonia, MI 48152 USA
              Tel. 313-464-4119
              Fax: 313-464-4240

from An Phoblacht/Republican News
3 November 1994



NO SELFISH INTEREST?
by Hilda Mac Thomas

Over the past week, the British government's contribution to the peace process
included further reassurance from Prime Minister John Major to the unionists,
further claims by Direct Ruler Patrick Mayhew that the British government was
still waiting for signs of the permanence of the cease-fire and the studied
refusal of the British ambassador in Dublin to attend the formal opening of the
Forum  for Peace and Reconciliation.  One "quality" British Sunday paper added
its own contribution by running with a classic "black propaganda" story about
the IRA mounting dummy attacks and gathering information for a renewed
campaign.

Irish nationalists have been patient in their description of what the British
government is at.  "A faltering and hesitant approach," said Sinn Fein Pres-
ident Gerry Adams, while SDLP leader John Hume spoke of a "developing concern
at the slowness at which the British are responding".

But is the British government merely into "crisis management", as British
policy in Ireland has often been labelled, or is it defending its own long-
term national goals?

Some politicians and academics would have us convinced that nationalism is an
"outmoded ideology".  Yet it seems to be still quite fashionable in Britian,
whether in relation to the concept of a federal Europe or to that of the union.
Norman Lamont recently berated John Major for saying that the British govern-
ment has no "selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland" and
that should a majority so desire, it would legislate to sever the union and
assist in Irish reunification.  Lamont argued on the basis of the need to
retain Scotland and Wales in the United Kingdom.  "One cannot be indifferent
to the union with Northern Ireland and simultaneously be a vigorous defender
of the union with Scotland," he said, alluding to John Major's vigorous
attack against Scottish nationalism at the last general elections.

Ireland is, as it has always been, the battlefield for two conflicting claims
to sovereignty --Irish nationalism and British imperialism.  But not only is
the playing field not level, in that Britain has been the invading and colon-
ising power and Ireland the conquered and colonised one, these two "nation-
alisms" are also intrinsically different.  Irish nationalism aims to build a
united, confident democracy and over the past decade has developed the theme
of a pluralist, agreed Ireland, at peace with itself.  Irish nationalism is
about the building of an Irish democracy, it is anti-imperialist.

British nationalism on the other hand is that of a former world imperialist
power.  In regard to Ireland, British nationalism aims to exterminate
republicans both through repression and by emptying republicanism of its
meaning, such as reducing it to a "tradition" or an "aspiration".  British
nationalism is about maintaining a hold on part of Ireland even if it means
limiting the social, economic and cultural development of the entire island
of Ireland.

It is not surprising that, according to a recent report, the "framework"
document which the Dublin and London governments are working on is stalling
on the core issue of sovereignty.  The British government is refusing any
executive power for cross-border institutions.  The British government is
refusing to move on the Government of Ireland Act, while demanding that
Dublin scrap Article Two of its constitution.  The British government is
planning to unilaterally design the shape of a political administration
for the Six Counties.  This means of course that it wants the future to be
a unionist one.

Irish nationalists, and those politicians in the 26 Counties who have been
quick to mount a defence of unionism, would do well to reflect on the
essentially anti-democratic nature of the British agenda as it reveals itself,
two months into the IRA cease-fire.  The international community is receptive
to what the Irish people are saying, more so now than it has ever been.  It
must be told forcefully of the true nature of the Six-County state and that
it is not not denying anyone's grief to say that unionists are far from having
a monopoly on suffering.  Northern nationalists have had enough of repression,
discrimination and terror and will not go back to a partitioned arrangement
run by a unionist majority and underwritten by Britain.  That much, in these
"faltering" and "hesitant" times, is certain.

    And of course the IRA are showing how much they want peace by allowing
    some VERY WELL KNOWN IRA members shoot dead a post office  Master.
    
    It really does go to show that the IRA cease fire is just one big
    publicity stunt and has no sincerity what so ever.
    
    Anybody who has sucumbed to the IRA propagander and brain washing
    techniques needs medical attention, FAST.

Who are these "Very well known.." people?

The last media reports I heard had downgraded that statement to
"believed to be Republican ..."

M

    >It really does go to show that the IRA cease fire is just one big
    >publicity stunt and has no sincerity what so ever.
    >
    >Anybody who has sucumbed to the IRA propagander and brain washing
    >techniques needs medical attention, FAST.
    
    I think you're jumping to conclusions here.  One incident doesn't 
    mean the whole peace process is gone awry.  One can question the
    sincerity of all the parties involved given some of the actions
    lately.  But let's at least give peace a chance to evolve.

    Thank you George.
    
    It is a bit like Mark Holohan's Title (taken from the document title)
    about British stalling... But is more likely to contain an element of
    truth.
    
    
    Have a great wekend,
    Simon
    

The British government refusal to allow Sinn Fein to participate
in an economic conference set for Belfast on December 13 and 14
has been harshly condemned by the party and has also threatened
to significantly scale down the size and scope of the U.S.
delegation, headed by Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, travelling
over for the event.

>The British government refusal to allow Sinn Fein to participate
>in an economic conference set for Belfast on December 13 and 14

I just heard last night (Switzerland's radio news) that the British govt.
and SF agreed to meet next December 7 (unsure about the date)...
Nothing reported on local news though.

The commenter told Major will ask for a full IRA disarmament (to start
the peace dialogue), and IRA will ask for (full) independence...
so the meeting is likely not to bring very far.

mf

  It looks like pressure from the White House, has finally
  forced the British to the peace table.  John Major has
  buckled to democracy, and will now enter a dialogue
  with Sinn Fein.  The British will also not be allowed to
  keep Sinn Fein out of the economic forum next week.

  Looks like Bill Clinton has been coming through with some
  of his promisses to the Irish-American community.

                     Mark

    
    Mario..Its going ahead ok on Friday. Yes it will be interesting. It
    will also be interesting to see how much of the meeting will be made
    public...There will have to be exposure or otherwise we will have crys
    of "Hidden agenda".
    
    I don't think we will see ultimatums set down immediately. Otherwise
    the whole thing is meaningless...and I think that both sides are
    serious about these talks. Handing over weapons and release of
    prisoners are logistical details which, important as they are, will
    only be measurments of how well the talks are perceived as going by
    each side...and how much trust is building up.
    
    time will tell..
    rgs,
    
    Mick 
    
    

     RTw  12/06 1356  Adams, on Capitol Hill, complains about British

          (Eds: more details from Irish sources, U.S. officials)

     WASHINGTON, Dec 6 (Reuter) - Irish Republican leader Gerry Adams,
preparing for his first-ever meeting at the White House, complained on
Tuesday of "discrimination" by Britain against his Sinn Fein party at a
coming conference on investment in Northern Ireland.

     Adams, leader of Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing, was expected to
raise his concerns about the conference, as well as fund-raising in the
United States for Sinn Fein, at a meeting later on Tuesday with National
Security Adviser Anthony Lake. He was to meet Lake at the White House at
2100 GMT.

     Adams met with incoming Republican chairman of the House of
Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee, Ben Gilman of New York on
Tuesday morning .

     "I briefed the congressman on the British government's discrimination
against Sinn Fein in preparing for the conference coming up next week in
Belfast," Adams says.

     Britain has excluded Sinn Fein's top leadership from the economic
investment conference which British Prime Minister John Major is launching
in Belfast December 13. A U.S. delegation led by Commerce Secretary Ron
Brown is attending.

     Low-level Sinn Fein officials have been invited to the forum, which is
being held to attract investment to Northern Ireland following twin
ceasefires by the Irish Republican Army and Loyalist Protestants in the
past three months.

     Irish sources said Adams hopes the Americans will take up the matter
with Britain before the conference gets under way.

     The sources, who asked not to be named, said Adams will also talk to
Lake about the issue of fund-raising for Sinn Fein on his next U.S. trip,
which is planned for January.

     Adams wants to set up a U.S. organisation called "Friends of Sinn
Fein" which would raise funds for the political party, the sources said,
stressing that none of the money would go for arms for the IRA.

     President Bill Clinton granted Adams a multi-entry visa for the United
States for the next three months to allow Adams to garner crucial Irish
American support for the peace process.

     But he banned Adams from fund-raising during his current visit, his
third since Clinton lifted a ban on Sinn Fein visits in February this year.
A U.S. official said the White House saw the meeting with Adams as an
"important signal that we remain committed to the peace process."

     "We'll express our approval of his efforts to work towards
non-violence, and urge him to continue to build confidence in that
process," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

     "Good deeds will be rewarded with an open door at the White House,"
the official added. Adams was not invited to the White House on his last
visit to Washington in October, when he met U.S. officials at the State
Department.

     Adams said after his meeting with Gilman on Tuesday that
"demilitarization" had to be accelerated to promote the peace process and
he would be talking about this with Lake.

     "We will be putting foward our views for an end to British rule (in
Northern Ireland). Of course you can't have have a durable peace settlement
if you have arms in the hands of British troops or loyalists, or the IRA,"
he said.

     Adams plans to return to Ireland in time for first-ever preliminary
talks on Friday between Sinn Fein and the British government on the peace
process.
  REUTER

from An Phoblacht/Republican News
Dec. 8, 1994

posted in IRL-NEWS
send message:
subscribe irl-news your name
send message to:
[email protected]


            British enter talks still dragging feet
                      BY HILDA Mac THOMAS

     AS IRISH NATIONALISTS wait with anticipation on the first
round of talks between Sinn Fein representatives and the British
government Belfast Sinn Fein Councillor Mairtin O Muilleoir
requested of Patrick Mayhew last week that he ''embrace the peace
process and end the tactical exclusion of Sinn Fein''.

     Mairtin's request came after it had become clear that the
British government would exclude Sinn Fein as a political party
from next week's international investors' forum. The reason, the
British government said, was that there would be no contact with
Sinn Fein until the British government opens exploratory dialogue
with them. This dialogue was originally intended to take place
three months after the announcement of the IRA cessation. The
three months were up on 30 November and British government
spokespersons were still indicating distrust of the IRA gesture,
along with vague promises of talks 'by Christmas'.

     The investment forum, scheduled for 13 and 14 December would
therefore proceed without the elected representatives of some of
the most disadvantaged areas of the Six Counties.

     Unfortunately for the British government, Sinn Fein's
exclusion led to an outcry, not only from Sinn Fein and the SDLP,
but also from some of the US politicians who have supported the
Irish peace initiative from the start.

     In Ireland, Gerry Adams and John Hume issued a joint
statement asking that there should be ''no stalling'' in the
search for a political settlement. ''It is essential that the
British government adopt a constructive approach by responding
to the new situation which has been created. Inclusive
negotiations, aimed at securing agreement and an overall
settlement, should begin without further delay. The British
government has a key role to play in this.'' The joint statement
expressed the impatience and frustration Irish nationalists have
felt after three months of delaying tactics by the British
government.

     In the US, one Congress member pointed out that the ban on
Sinn Fein's participation in the investors' forum called US
participation into question. The US government itself is reported
to be annoyed at the British decision to organise an investors'
forum ahead of Bill Clinton's own conference, to take place in
Philadelphia next April. Unlike next week's Belfast forum, the US
conference will include representatives from the 26 Counties as
well, as economic regeneration is viewed in Washington as having
an all-Ireland context.

     Such was the outcry at the British government's negative
stance that within two days, they had announced that exploratory
talks with Sinn Fein would begin on 13 December.

     Patrick Mayhew also declared that the invitations to the
investors' forum had been sent not by the Northern Ireland
Office, but by the Industrial Development Board. His remarks must
have been heard by someone in the IDB who promptly sent an
invitation to Belfast City Council's Economic Committee on which
Sinn Fein councillors sit. What remains nevertheless is that
while Alliance Party leader John Alderdice is invited to the
forum as a party leader, Gerry Adams is not.

     There was speculation in the press that one of the reasons
for the talks delay had been to exclude Sinn Fein from the
investors' forum. There was more speculation that the ''hastily
convened'' IDB forum was an attempt by the British government to
retain control over foreign investment and channel it through the
NIO, as  opposed to an international body such as the
International Fund for Ireland.

     Regardless of the reasons, the story is one of British
government's foot-dragging, hesitations, mismanagement, and lack
of political courage. It also showed how effective Irish
nationalists can be when they speak with one voice and harness
international support.

     The calling of exploratory talks does not mean either that
the British government has had a change of heart about the peace
process. There will be plenty of opportunities for the British to
divert the drive for peace away from inclusive talks on
substantive issues that nationalists have repeatedly called for,
and towards a string of bilateral talks on procedure or red
herring issues such as the handing over of weapons and explosives
by the IRA.

     Sinn Fein's agenda for the bilateral talks includes a full
recognition of Sinn Fein's mandate, the logistics of future
all-party talks, issues of repressive legislation and the release
of all political prisoners.

     The 'decommissioning' of weapons and explosives is an issue
which as traditionally been kept to a later stage of any peace
process, if at all. It never happened in South Africa. It
happened well into the peace process in El Salvador. It is
usually linked to an overall settlement, and in particular an
overall demilitarisation of a conflict undertaken by all sides.

     It is usually supervised by agreed outside observers. In the
context of an overall settlement, it is usually more symbolic
than anything else. The British government has a choice of
creating a block to the peace process by demanding that this
thorny issue be placed at the top of the agenda, or it can take
the IRA at its word, as did the Dublin government, and indeed the
US government and many sectors of international opinion.

     The only substantive thing the British government has
publicly aid it wants out of exploratory talks has been this
question of weapons and explosives. In this they have been
vociferously supported by unionists, and the usual sycophants
that London finds in sectors of the media in Britain and Ireland.

     The next few weeks and months will be critical for the Irish
peace initiative. It stresses the importance of ongoing
campaigning for republicans to ensure that the voice of hitherto
disenfranchised nationalists is heard loud and clear. It stresses
the importance of international opinion in applying continued
pressure on London. It underlines the need for a resolution of
the Dublin government crisis so that it can resume its positive
participation in the peace process.

RTw  12/17 1743  Former Irish PM under fire for N.Ireland remarks

    LONDON, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Former Irish prime minister Albert Reynolds
came under fire on Saturday for saying Britain and Ireland were close to
agreeing a proposal for a joint executive body with powers stretching across
the Northern Irish frontier. The executive body, made up of representatives
from Ireland and the British-ruled province, was one proposal in a "framework
document" being discussed by London and Dublin and designed to form the basis
of peace talks, Reynolds said.

     But Reynolds, replaced as Irish premier by John Bruton on Thursday, was
criticised by British officials for breaking an agreed pact of silence over
the intergovernmental talks.

     Northern Irish politicians loyal to Britain and suspicious of any
interference by Dublin in the province were furious.

     Reynolds told a BBC Radio Ulster programme: "A lot of progress has been
made on an all-Ireland body which would operate by consensus to monitor
cooperation."


     "It would be drawn from the Dail (Irish parliament) and a Northern
Ireland parliament with perhaps five representatives from each," he told the
programme.

     Reynolds also warned that Britain's demand for the destruction of all
the Irish Republican Army's arms before its political wing, Sinn Fein, was
allowed to take part in full, all-party peace talks could threaten the IRA
ceasefire.

     Britain's Northern Ireland Secretary Patrick Mayhew told BBC television
news he had not heard the remarks, but said he was surprised Reynolds had
spoken about a "process which we understood had been confidential between
us."

     Mary Harney of Ireland's opposition Progressive Democrats said Reynolds'
remarks were "unwise and insensitive" and had made things difficult for both
government.

     Ken Maginnis, member of parliament for Northern Ireland's Ulster
Unionists, who remain committed to continued British rule, told BBC news
Reynolds' remarks were destructive.

     "He has created the sort of challenge that brings about suspicion
that... endangers the whole process," Maginnis said..

     Reynolds and British prime minister John Major drafted and launched the
Downing Street plan which laid down diplomatic guidelines for a political
settlement and brought about truces by the IRA and their Loyalist opponents.

     The document, which Major will discuss with Bruton at a meeting in
 London next week, is due to be published next year.

     Reynolds was brought down in a row with his Labour coalition partners
over the government's handling of extradition warrants for an Irish priest
wanted in Northern Ireland for child abuse. British officials have already
held exploratory talks with Sinn Fein and with the political representatives
of Protestant loyalist guerrillas, so-called because they are "loyal" to
continued British rule, on the way forward in the peace process.

    
    Ken maginess has a point...Everybody accepts these negociations are
    tense and all points of view must be taken into account before
    agreement..if any... is met
    
    Reynolds was party to confidential talks with the British and is
    now out of office...he should know better....and leave it up to
    the new cabinet. (he should sit quietly until he can explain why he
    lied to the Dail...we will see how quick he is explain stuff then)
    
    Bomb defused in Enniskillen this morning...No one has claimed resposibility
    for planting it...
    
    rgs,
    
    Mick
    
    
     

 Mick,
    Seems to me that agreements behind closed doors, leads to mistrust
 among the people affected by those agreements.  Maybe it's better out
 in the open.
                     Mark

    Mark,
         re. .155 I agree entirely, except that puts us both in line with
    what Paisley has been saying for the last year which goes against
    the grain with me,
    
    Gareth 

    I have just heard on the radio news that daylight army patrols are to
    stop in Belfast as from today. The announcement was made by a senior
    RUC officer.

                 ***********************************

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
 January 11, 1995

                SECURITY FORCE THREAT TO CEASEFIRE


DUBLIN- Residents in South Armagh have protested plans by the security
 forces in Northern Treland to extend and fortify a security base on the
 border at Middletown.  The Police Authority has been given planning
 permission to extend the joint British Army/RUC (Royal ULster Constabulary)
 base including a new high perimeter wall and hangar.

    This sends out all the wrong signals and flies in the face of the new
 situation created by the peace process. "It is obviously a naive attempt to
 appease unionists," a spokesman for the moderate SDLP said.

    The RUC and British army are continuing with a program of re-
 construction of security installations across Northern Ireland despite the
 expectations of nationalists that a process of demilitarization would have
 started by now, over four months since the IRA cessation of hostilities.

    A widely publicized police and army raid on the home of a prominent
 republican family in Coalisland, County Tyrone, Sunday has added to
 nationalist concerns about the fragility of the peace process.

    According to Hugh O'Donnell, who has lodged an official complaint, about
 100 soldiers and 17 carloads of police officers descended on his home Sunday
 night and seized a legally held shotgun and cartridges.

   "The permit was with the gun and the RUC took both items, They know
 very well that it is a legally held weapon. They are trying to justify the
 raid, " said O'Donnell, two of whose sons are in jail for political
offenses.  A nephew, Barry O'Donnell, was killed by security Torces four
years ago.

   "The neighbors counted 17 carloads of RUC men and up to 100 British
 soldiers. I refused to let them in and they started sledgehammering the
 door. They still had no warrant and they wouldn't say under what legislation
 they wanted access," O'Donnell said.

   "They threatened to fire plastic bullets. They eventually got in by
 smashing a window. Thirty of them came into the house. They searched it for
 nearly three hours. They pulled everything out from wardrobes, drawers and
 shelves. They left our things scattered all over the floor. They trampled
 the glass into the carpets,"

   He claimed children in the house were imprisoned, the telephone was
 pulled out and photographs were taken out of the interior of the house.

   "The soldiers took photographs inside our house which we are very
 worried about. We have already been told that we are on a loyalist death
 list, " said O'Donnell who accused the RUC of "deliberately trying to
 jeopardize the ceasefire".

   In the past photographs of nationalists and their homes have been passed
 on by security force members for use by loyalist murder gangs in attacks on
 nationalists.

Irish American Information Service

Offices:

Dublin:       4 Dame Court
              Dublin 2 Ireland
              Tel. 011-353-1-774072
              Fax: 011-353-1-6793198

Washington:   National Press Building
              529 14th St., NW Suite 837
              Washington, DC 20045 USA
              Tel. 202-662-8830
              Fax: 202-662-8831

Michigan:     35941 Six Mile Rd.
              Livonia, MI 48152 USA
              Tel. 313-464-4119
              Fax: 313-464-4240

Letter received from Sister Sarah Clarke in London:

Dear friends,

I am a nun whose work in England for 25 years has involved looking after the
families of Irish prisoners in English jails.  I have come to know many of
the people in prison themselves through correspondence and after they have
been released.

I took care of the family of Guiseppe Conlon and gerry Conlon through all the
years of their imprisonment, and I was present when Guiseppe Conlon was
snatched from Hammersmith hospital when he was dying by prison officers, and
put back in Wormwood Scrubs Prison on the coldest day of the year in January,
1981 without even a blanket around him.

I have accompanied elderly parents of many prisoners over the years who have
struggled to keep relationships going and, in turn, attended their funerals
when their children in prison have not been allowed to attend at the death or
burial of their parents.  I have watched while children have journeyed for up
to 20 hours at a time to have a visit of less than an hour, not more than
twice a year with their father.  I have watched families break up by reason
of the enormous difficulties placed in their way and the fear that surrounds
individuals when they believe that travelling through England is likely to
make them subject to wrongful arrest (as happened in the case of Guiseppe
Conlon).

I mention some of the suffering that has been placed unnecessarily on
prisoners in England (who could have served their sentences in Northern
Ireland without any difficulty) as I have always been of the view that it has
been deliberately imposed.  The degree of repression seemed at its worst in
the 1970's and I hoped that by now events were begining to change.

It is, however, all the more worrying, that what we are now witnessing in
England is a far more serious degree of punishment than has ever been
detected before.  Prisoners who have been in prison for up to 20 years and
who are due to be released, are now being charged with further offenses.
 Other prisoners who have been promised transfers to prisons in Northern
Ireland have not had it happen.  Still more prisoners have been subject, I
understand, to brutality in prison, and contact with families, just by way of
telephone and slightlymore relaxed visiting conditions, has now been
restricted in a far more severe way than has happened for 20 years.

I am led to wonder what the attitude of the government is to the prisoners.
 This is my experience and this is what I know.  The message that I want to
send to your demonstration is that whatever efforts have been made on behalf
of prisoners and their families should now be redoubled, as no peace process
could possibly succeed in the face of so much continuing unfairness.

I would suggest that concerned individuals and groups in the U.S.A. should
lobby the British Ambassador in Washington, and British Consuls in respective
cities, as well as the Irish Ambassador.  The British Foreign secretary,
Douglas Hurd, at the Foreign Office in Whitehall, London SW1 should also be
lobbied.

Yours sincerely,

Sister Sarah Clarke

Sir Robin Renwick, British Ambassador
(202)462-1340
FAX: (202)898-4255

Irish Consulate: (212)319-2555

Join the demonstrations on April 8th!

Eyes on the Prize,

James

               Britain to hold historic talks with Sinn Fein

RTw  4/24/95 1:20 PM


 (Adds reaction from Sinn Fein, Irish premier, background)
     By Martin Cowley

     BELFAST, April 24 (Reuter) - Britain said on Monday it would start
landmark ministerial peace talks on  Northern Ireland with Sinn Fein,
ending stalemate about discussions on disarming the party's IRA guerrilla
supporters.

     The talks will mark the official entry into mainstream politics of
Sinn Fein, which shares the Irish  Republican Army's goal of ending British
rule of Northern Ireland and merging the province with the Irish  Republic.

     Hitherto the London government has restricted exploratory talks with
Sinn Fein to senior civil servant  level and the upgrading of contacts was
seen by London's Irish partners in the quest for a lasting Northern
Ireland settlement as progress.

     "I am particularly pleased that the British government have announced,
and Sinn Fein have accepted, a  meeting at ministerial level to further the
peace process," Irish Prime Minister John Bruton said in a  statement.

     The announcement ended a semantic stalemate over Sinn Fein's demand
that the "demilitarisation" of  Northern Ireland -- the withdrawal of
British troops and police -- be given equal billing on a draft agenda with
the disarming of the IRA.

     Northern Ireland minister Michael Ancram, in a concession to Sinn
Fein, said he was willing to listen to  its demand that the withdrawal of
17,000 British troops from the province and the dismantling of its
Protestant police force be on the agenda.

     But he stressed that "decommissioning" the IRA's vast arsenal of guns
and explosives was the key to  any invitation to Sinn Fein to new talks
with other political parties which the London government plans to  advance
the fledgling peace process.

     "We have made it clear that in the discussions we will have on the
decommissioning of arms, we will  want to look at the way in which arms
could be decommissioned -- the manner in which verification could  take
place."

     He said the government was: "prepared to discuss everything
constructively and seriously, including the  decommissioning of arms which
we would discuss seperately and first."

     The talks, expected to be held within the next 10 days, will be the
first between a British minister and  Irish republicans since secret
negotiations in London between a senior cabinet member and an IRA
delegation in 1972.

     Sinn Fein welcomed the British decision but said it expected to be
treated like other mainstream political  parties which have been invited by
Britain to separate talks on an Anglo-Irish proposal for a lasting
settlement.

     Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein's chief negotiator in talks with British
officials since December, welcomed  the decision to end a ministerial ban
on Sinn Fein but added:

     "With it, must end the discrimination to which our electorate has been
subjected by the British  government."

     Britain has shunned appeals by the Dublin government and President
Bill Clinton to open ministerial talks  and has insisted that Sinn Fein
show willingness to disarm the IRA.

     The talks will be a major boost for the peace process which prompted
the IRA to declare a ceasefire to  its 25-year war against British rule
last September in an effort to get its political voice heard through Sinn
Fein.

     Protestant Loyalists who fought to maintain British rule declared a
similar truce last October giving Britain  and Ireland what they say is an
unprecedented chance to end more than a quarter of a century of political
and sectarian conflict.
  REUTER

----- End of forwarded message -----

 
 re. last.

  Well it's about time.  Once again it's taken outside pressure to
  force the British government to take the next step (one that should 
  have been taken long ago)  Only question now is, what will the British
  do next to delay the peace process?  
                      Mark

    
    Hopefully no more delay but I would not be so so optimistic . The
    delays from the british government side have put a real damper on the
    process. it would seem that local political events in Westminister
    dictate the pace..with John Majors government wary of anything that
    will upset the unionists MPs. 
    
    Survival in power seems to be the agenda ...and the cost of which could
    be a return to violence....Not very civilised at all...pretty warped
    democratic politics...
                            
    rgs,
    
    Mick
    
       

RTw  4/30/95 3:10 PM Adams says time running out in Northern Ireland



            *****************************************************************



                Adams says time running out in Northern Ireland

RTw  4/30/95 3:10 PM




    By David Christian-Edwards

     BASLE, Switzerland, April 30 (Reuter) - Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams on
Sunday urged the British government to seize the opportunity for peace in
Northern Ireland as time was "running out."

     He told reporters that eight months had passed since the Irish
Republican Army (IRA), of which Sinn Fein is the political wing, had called a
ceasefire and London still had not started real talks.

     "(British Prime Minister John) Major should realise that time is running
out for British injustice and represssion and the old agenda," he said.

     "Rather than carp or nag at Mr Major, I think it is better to appeal to
him to join with Dublin and the rest of us and move things forward," he added.


     Adams was speaking just before collecting a controversial international
peace prize awarded by Swiss watch company MDM at a dinner held at a medieval
castle near Basle.

     Several British politicians last week sharply criticised MDM for chosing
Adams for its award of a $2,200 Thorr luxury watch and a citation praising him
 for promoting "world peace, human rights and the principles of freedom and
democracy."

     Adams joined ex-Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev and Spanish King Juan
Carlos on the annual Thorr Award roll of honour.

     The Sinn Fein leader told reporters his party wanted the coming talks
with a junior British minister for Northern Ireland, Michael Ancram, to deal
with constitutional change, democratisation, and demilitarisation.

     Britain's Northern Ireland secretary, Sir Patrick Mayhew, said last week
the talks would not be upgraded from exploratory to full-blown negotiations
until progress had been made on taking IRA guns out of service. No date has
been set for the talks, but they are expected to take place in the coming
week.

     Sinn Fein has said it is ready to discuss decommissioning of arms but
wants all issues, including withdrawal of British troops and the disbanding
the Protestant police force, to be broached as well.

     The Irish government wants Britain to make sure the dispute over arms
does not jeoparise a painstaking two-year process which persuaded the IRA to
declare its ceasefire last eyar.

     Adams said: "We shall certainly approach those talks in a very positive
way and we will be seeking to move all of the process towards a peace
settlement."

     But he said a feeling existed among Irish nationalists that the "British
have been too slow, that they have been too begrudging, that they have not
been generous enough."
  REUTER







                       ******************************************************

Jay Dooling
[email protected]

1995/07/06
GRANT HECKLED CLINTON ADVISER

____________________________________________
From Conor O'Clery, in Washington

BRITISH actor Hugh Grant caused something of an embarrassing political
incident on a visit to Washington, before being caught by police with
a prostitute in Hollywood, it has been learned.

The star of Four Weddings and a Funeral criticised a senior White
House official in front of  30 to 40 leading Washington political
figures over the granting of a US visa to the Sinn Fein leader, Mr
Gerry Adams.

Mr Grant (35) twice loudly heckled Mr George Stephanopoulos, a senior
adviser to President Clinton, at a dinner to which Mr Stephanopoulos
had invited him.

When the White House aide rose to say a few words and mentioned the
April 19th Oklahoma bombing, Mr Grant shouted, according to one of the
guests present: ``Maybe you'll feel different now about rewarding a
terrorist like Gerry Adams.''

The White House aide, taken aback at the sudden outburst from the
otherwise affable actor, retorted that Mr Adams had turned his back on
violence and the President was justified in taking a risk for peace.

``Mr Grant then called out something about the White House concern for
the Irish vote,'' the guest said.

Another person who attended the dinner accused Mr Grant of ``loudly
barracking'' Mr Stephanopoulos with ``two big loud heckles''.
The actor had attended a reception in the British embassy before the
dinner, which was held for the Democratic Women's Campaign Fund on May
9th at the Washington home of Ms Nancy Rubin.

Mr Stephanopoulos was said to have found the episode ``somewhat
weird'', especially as Mr Grant had been invited after he had
contacted the White House seeking a meeting with President Clinton.
This could not be arranged as the President was out of town. Mr Grant
was invited instead to the Rubin house.receptin in th British embassy,
which Mr Grant attended with his partner, Ms Liz Hurley, was to help
poor children living in the US capital, according to a British embassy
spokesman, who confirmed that the couple spent the night at the
 residence of the British ambassador.

Mr Grant was arrested in Hollywood last week and booked on a
misdemeanour charge of lewd conduct in a public place, after he had
allegedly invited a prostitute who went by the name of Ms Divine Brown
into his car.

  _________________________________________________________________

The Irish Times

	...?!

Chris.

                        * MOVIE NEWS*
                       ---------------
    
    Hugh Grant to play Gerry Adams in forthcoming Hollywood block buster.
    The film portrays the life of Adams and concentrates
    on the romantic side of the man - "a bit of a boy meets girl story" 
    according to the shy and sensitive Grant. Grant also said, in his
    charmingly hesitant tones "Like me Gerry has er...emm.. done a few 
    bad things".
    
    
    
    My apologies for going off topic in such a flippant manner.
    Mark

> Hugh Grant to play Gerry Adams in forthcoming Hollywood block buster.

  Hugh Grant will more likely be playing with himself in the near future.
  So, what was Hugh trying to do with Ms. Divine Brown?  Improve the
  British gene pool?

                       Mark
  
  

The American one, possibly.  Learn some basic facts of reproduction!

Chris.

  re. .169

  Sorry I upset you, I've obviously hit on a raw nerve.

                Mark

>  Sorry I upset you, I've obviously hit on a raw nerve.

nope.  Sorry to disappoint.

Chris.

    
    
    I'm note sure; as Hugh Grant said on Jay Leno
    
    " Hmm, err, I'm not, er, one er, to blow my own, er, trumpet"
    


  Maybe a fellow Englishman can give Hugh some lessons.

>  Maybe a fellow Englishman can give Hugh some lessons.

well volunteered, Mark!


 re. .174

 Not I, I'm an American.  Let the English do what the English do best.

 

> Not I, I'm an American.

Not by birth you ain't, daddio.  Having said that, since you brought
up the subject of gene pools, I have long suspected that England runs
a screening system to check for defects in its genetic structure (we
*must* keep our tiny gene pool free from any bizarre influences, of
course, since we're a bit cliquey like that, only having 55 million
active contributors) such as producing a breed of people who may develop
a desire to wear chequered trousers, silly baseball caps or generally
be loud and offensive.  They're shipped through the clearing house of
Harrow (home to the world's most pretentious football team) and across
the Atlantic where they can cause embarrasment to their adoptive country
instead of ours.

> Let the English do what the English do best.

Drink, I guess.  Bleedin lightweight, I bet you can't even hold your beer!

Chris.

    Mr Grant may well only be playing with himself in the future. I suspect
    he will be keeping his head down a lot as well. Or maybe he's already
    tried that?

from An Phoblacht/Republican News
July 13, 1995



                  Nationalist homes firebombed

     FOLLOWING attempts by loyalists to get through the lower
Ormeau Road on 5 July, Catholic families further up the Ormeau
Road in Agra Street and Walmer Street were attacked and petrol
bombed. One couple had a narrow escape from death, when
a petrol bomb landed in their living room at 12.30am on Thursday,
6 July. The young couple with a young child were forced to stay
with relatives as the house was destroyed by fire.

     In Walmer Street a Catholic mother of five was beaten up and
suffered facial cuts and bruising. ''All I could think of was my
children. I fought them off as best I could'' she said. She took
her children, aged seven to two years, to stay with friends. She
was in no doubt why she was singled out. ''I am a Catholic....I
was burned out of my last house. I'm quite scared and I'm afraid
for my children. No one should have to live like this. It's
disgraceful, attacking people's homes.''

     In another firebombing, a Catholic family narrowly escaped
serious injury in a petrol bomb attack on their Portadown home.
The Corcrain Drive family, a mother and father and their two
children aged 11 and 13, escaped from the burning house
shortly after 1.15am on Monday morning, 10 July.

     The house lies less than a mile from Drumcree Road. Shortly
before the firebomb attack, about 100 loyalists led by a
notorious UVF death squad leader 'King Rat' and Belfast loyalist
Kenny McClinton blocked Corcrain Road close to the scene of
the attack on the Catholic family.
-----------------

                   A lot of growing up to do
                      BY MEADBH GALLAGHER

     VICTORY was theirs, they said. And it was, in a way. In the
way that bullies stand on their victims' chests to pound their
own. The bigots were back again.

     And they were being backed again. At Garvaghy Road, on the
Ormeau Road, they claimed their right to trample on the notion of
equality. And the British forces, their ''brothers in arms'',
granted it to them. Again. Twenty-five years after the Lower
Falls Curfew, nationalist residents in Belfast were again placed
under siege on Wednesday morning at the lower Ormeau Road.
After Portadown, the RUC were happy to be keeping the Taigs down
once more, their lines of Saracens like rats moving in for a
feed.

     And so, the week after the British released the first
prisoner since the IRA cessation and then welcomed him back into
the British Army, we are getting another message on British
intent in the Irish peace process. The right to march
must be afforded to sectarian bigots no matter what the cost to
the people who are the targets of their bigotry. Gerry Adams
described it thus: ''In Portadown, the Garvaghy Road was put
under siege by Orangemen: on the lower Ormeau Road the
RUC has done the job for them.''

                        Who wants peace?

     Since the IRA cessation Sinn Fein has been constantly
questioned about its commitment to the peace process. The British
government has encouraged the doubters. Now Gerry Adams has
pointed out that some of the unionist politicians
who took part in this week's Orange onslaught have never
supported the peace process.

     Indeed, the parties they represent are refusing to talk to
Sinn Fein, and they are getting away with that refusal because
they are playing the Orange card Britain has dealt them. The RUC
have never declared a cessation of hostilities and have never
been questioned about their commitment to peace. And the British
government, which stands four-square behind the unionists and the
RUC, has never opted to end the war.

     At the Forum for Peace & Reconciliation in Dublin last
Friday, Gerry Adams had some home truths to tell. ''There were
those'', he said, ''many of them in this room, who have said for
a long time that the IRA was the problem, that the British
government was neutral: that an end to the IRA's campaign would
see the prisons emptied, a complete withdrawal of troops, an end
to repression and discrimination, and most importantly of all,
the commencement of real peace talks.''

     Adams pointed out that Britain's ''bad faith engagement''
with the peace process began not last week, nor ten months ago,
''but going back to when John Hume and I were trying to initiate
a way forward''. Now, ''against the background of a
steady deterioration in the peace process'', the British
government must not be allowed to dodge its responsibility, he
said, and must not be allowed to play the Orange Card again.

     ''And this must  be put to the British government'', Gerry
Adams continued. ''John Major must be asked to set a date and a
venue so that those of us who want to make peace can do just
that. The alternative is that we dance around the
issues while the opportunity for a lasting peace slips away.''

                Who holds the last Orange Card?

     Gerry Adams says the events of Portadown ''points up the
failure of unionist politicians to move beyond the narrow
sectarian path they have traditionally walked or to come to terms
with the political changes which are taking place''.

     The presence of David Trimble, chalking up street credits
for his Official Unionist Party leadership bid, was sickening.
The posturing of Ian Paisley was equally so. But at the end of
the day, unionist politicians must know the Orange Card is only
dealt to them; it is not theirs. Their triumphalism, their
coat-trailing, is hollow.

     Britain holds the last Orange Card. Britain will decide
whether or not there will be serious engagement with the peace
process from the British government and Unionist parties. That is
why, in Adams' words, ''Not one person here and no
one on this island has a notion when all-party talks will
begin.''

     ''A peace process first of all demands the need for
change'', Gerry Adams says, ''and we all need to change''.
Britain, apparently, doesn't feel the need.
--------------------



>     ''A peace process first of all demands the need for
>change'', Gerry Adams says, ''and we all need to change''.
>Britain, apparently, doesn't feel the need.

...and Sinn Fein does?  How about dropping the condition that Ireland
must be united before a permanent peace can be negotiated?

Personally, I'm getting rather tired of the constant bickering that's
going on and showing no signs of ending.  I sometimes wish that the
British Government would pull out of Northern Ireland completely and
say `bollocks to the lot of you, sort it out yourselves' (yes, I know
that's a rather unfair generalisation to people as a whole).  I wonder
who will be the first to start whining and complaining when the violence
restarts and there's noone there to stop it?

Chris.


  re. .179

   Sinn Fein has set no preconditions to talks.  Not now, not ever.
   The British government are the only ones who set preconditions to
   holding peace talks.

   Stop attempting to propogate the lie that the British government or
   the British forces are there to stop violence.  They're there to
   hold on to their last colony.  All one has to do is read an Amnesty
   Internation human rights report to see who has orchestrated the
   violence in north east Ireland.  That guilty party is the British
   forces with the backing of the British government.

  The British don't want peace.  Any nation that wanted peace would have
   sit down with their adversaries by now.  It's as simple as that.

                          Mark

propagating a lie?  Please remember, I don't represent anyone but me.  There's
little chance of me acting as a spokesman for the Government.

As far as human rights go, I'm very interested as to why AI don't seem to
concern themselves with the various misdemeanours of the IRA.  I know this
question has been asked before, but I don't remember seeing any particularly
convincing answer.  Anybody know why they seem to be so one sided in their
investigation of human rights violations?

Chris.

PS I'm not attempting to divert attention from the reported violations, just
   curious as to why AI are so selective in their interest.

    re .181
    
    Chris, you need to understand what  amnesty international is about.
    It's remit isn't to inverstigate every criminal act in a country -
    that's the job of the country's police force. If a terrorist
    organisation is violating human rights in a country, a citizen can
    normally rely on being able to ask his government to do something about
    it. However, where it is that government itself which is doing the
    violating, the citizen has nowhere to turn. This is what Amnesty
    International concerns itself with. State terrorism, the only form of
    terrorism which you can't ask the state to deal with.
    

Perhaps, but in a situation like this it tends to get people's backs
up.

Chris.

From the Guardian 20 July (reprnted without permission)


A new loyalist organisation has threatened action against the Catholic
community in Northern Ireland if attacks against Protestant property are
not halted.

In a statement to a local radio station, an anonymous caller on behalf of
the previously unheard of Protestant Defence Force said it would "strike
hard" at the Catholic community if there were more attacks "on Protestant,
loyalist or unionist hall, schools or businesses of any sort."

Gary McMichael, leader of the loyalist Ulster Democratic Party, said the
loyalist paramilitary leadership would not easily forgive the new
organisation if it threatened the ceasefire.

An arson attack on an Orange hall at Crumlin, Co Antrim, in which the
building was badly damaged, is being investigated by police as the latest
in a series of attacks on Orange hall, Protestant homes and businesses over
the past fortnight, which Unionist politicians have blamed on the IRA
and have said is the start of a rolling return to violence.

  re .183

  Only people who have obviously never read an AI report on north
  east Ireland.  Try educating yourself before you criticize the
  organanization.

                     Mark

Stop talking such patronising bollocks.

Chris.

 re. 184

   Meanwhile the British government sits back and smiles.  They only have
   to twiddle their thumbs a little longer, maybe throw in a few more
   injustices and they'll be able to say "see", this is why we must stay.
   We told you the Irish can't live amongst themselves.  Let's nudge the
   loyalist along a little more, and reward some more British army murderers,
   and we'll have a nice little war going again.

                        Mark

So you're now saying that the British Army should stay, then?

Chris.

On news yesterday there was some Unionist politician (didn't catch his
name) on saying the British govt was making too many concessions to the IRA.

Hmmm...let me see - criticized by IRA/Sinn Fein for blocking peace and by
the other side for giving too much away - they must be doing something
right!

Looks like the govt are walking a tightrope to ensure everyone can keep
moving forward however slowly.

    
    I don't think anybody (incl SF/IRA and most definitely the Irish Govt)
    want the British Army out of NI at the moment...The governing
    institutions  (Admin/Councils/court system/police ) need overhauling
    before any withdrawal could be considered. The impasse we have at the
    moment is in getting all parties to even agree to sit and discuss how
    to change such institutions..
    
    I don't honestly thing the Bristish Govt. don't WANT peace...The
    simple fact that is they do have a vested interest in keeping the Ulster
    Unionists happy in case they need their votes in westminister. Unforth
    it would seem that whilst there is a time frame in how long they can 
    continue to appease Unionist MP's ..there is also a time frame in 
    how long the ceasefire can hold out. I would imagine that there are
    deals been done around prisoner release and prisoner return from
    British Jails...(like the secret meetings last week between SF and
    British Government). 
    
    I wouldn't accept that the British want to stay in NI for any longer
    than they have to...That day is surely going when they want to hold on
    to bits of their empire...A Conservative MP in any of the 100's of
    marginal constituencies won't be gaining alot of votes next time
    around by saying the will STAY in NI..Now if he/she was to say they
    plan to leave NI and the huge cost of staying there will be over..and
    hence you will have a tax reduction of whatever.....they might get a
    better chance....-) -)..
    
    rgs,
    
    mick                                              
    
    
    

    re .184
    
    Mark,
    
    For what reason do you think the British Government want a war? I could
    think of some reasons why they might want to keep NI part of Britain,
    but a return to the levels of violence seen over the last 25 years? I
    fail to see the sense.
    
    Andrew

  re. .191

   I believe that only a nation that wishes to see a return to the
    status quo, would continue to insist on not sitting down at the
    peace table with their enemies.  "Secret talks" will only make
    matters worse, and raise even more suspicion in the Unionists
    camps.

    I also think that the British government fear the demise of the
    United Kingdom.  They've got their hooks in the north sea oil
    fields, and don't want to lose pounds from that. 

                         Mark

    
    
    Mark,
         you obviously didn't major in Geography :*). Where do you believe
    the North Sea is?
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

>     Mark,
>         you obviously didn't major in Geography :*). Where do you believe
>    the North Sea is?
    

  NW of central Europe, east of Britain.  Same place it was last year and
  the year before that.  Did the British go and move it or something ( I
  wouldn't put anything past them :-)

                    Mark

    So how does it effect the United Kingdom of Great Britain and North
    East Ireland?
    
    There is no viable oil deposits in the north eastern Irish Sea!!!
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

    
    >Mark,
    >     you obviously didn't major in Geography :*). Where do you believe
    >the North Sea is?
    >
    >Rgds
    >
    >Gareth
    
    Gareth, ask a Norwegian where the North Sea is... and where their
    intl' boundaries lie... you'll get some interesting responses...
    
    ;v)   

    
    Point taken George,
    			and ask an Irish citizen where north east Ireland is 
    and you may get an equally unusual response eq. Co. Louth :*)
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth 

    An addendum to my last.
    
    As an example I am currently redesigning a network for the North
    Eastern Health Board. Which covers Counties Meath, Louth, Cavan and
    Monaghan.
    
    So on Wednesday I am travelling South from Belfast to go the North
    Eastern region of Ireland. Of course it is a well known fact here that
    the most northerly point in Ireland is in the South ( Malin Head ) and
    of course it is in the  North Western Health Board area.
    
    Try explaining that to a tourist!!! :*)
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth 

    re .192
    
    I think the British Gov't are not "insisting on not sitting down...".
    They are asking for some moves towards permanent peace before sitting
    down, secondly the unionists are not keen and their view has to be
    considered. Who asked for the talks to be in secret? I don't know.
    
    As to North Sea oil - more money flows north than south over the
    Scottish border. But are you saying the Gov't would rather have
    permanent violence on the scale of the last 25 years than reach a
    solution? I don't believe that.
    
    I still see no reason from you that explains why the British Government
    would rather have a war than a solution.

>   I think the British Gov't are not "insisting on not sitting down...".
>  They are asking for some moves towards permanent peace before sitting
>   down

    Peace is something you negotiate with your enemy by, sitting down and
    talking with them.  It's not something that is a pre-condition to 
    "peace talks".  Come on, anyone can see that the British have dragged
    their reluctant feet for the past year.  If they really wanted peace
    do you seriously think they couldn't have moved things along?


> I still see no reason from you that explains why the British Government
> would rather have a war than a solution.

    Ever heard the expression, actions speak louder than words?  Please
    demonstrate to me how the "actions" or rather lack of, on the part
    of the British government, demonstrate that the British are looking
    for a peaceful solution to the British problem in Ireland?  Would it
    be their continued refusal to hold public high level talks after a
    year long ceasefire?  Maybe it was the release of Clegg?  No, maybe
    it was the crackdown on Irish political prisoners?  Maybe they did
    something dramatic, and the world just missed it?  Well, what have the
    British government done to prove that they don't see a continued war
    as their solution? 


                               Mark


  P.S.
    Dear Lager Louse,
          What does the British word snarf mean?  Does it have a meaning
    besides inhaling food up ones nose?  And why do you keep using it?

                      Mark

As it has just been pointed out, but which you convieniently chose to
ignore, the British government is walking a tightrope, trying not to
upset either side.  It's currently being accused of being both too
conciliatory and too uncompromising at once.  Sorry if you find this
confusing.

>    Dear Lager Louse,

ah, abuse.  Glad to see your debating skill still hasn't improved.  Still,
while we're on this level, I would be most pleased to point out that I
consider you to be an immature, bigoted, argumentative, hyprocritcal dick
head.

>          What does the British word snarf mean?  Does it have a meaning
>    besides inhaling food up ones nose?  And why do you keep using it?

as you well know, it originated in the *American* ::SOAPBOX conference.
Why don't we see you in there any more?  To scared of criticism without
your boyfriend Drotter to hold your hand?

Chris.

 re. .202
  Dear Lager Loathe,
     Were you ever a steeplejack? 
            Mark

>  Dear Lager Loathe,

er, inappropriate I think...

>     Were you ever a steeplejack? 

no.  Why?

Chris.

    Mick,
    
    I agree with you mostly. But I really think there needs to be an
    agreed upon timetable for a PHASED decommissioning/demilitarization
    (call it what you will) of Northern Ireland. Maybe I'm wrong
    (hopefully so), but I can't see huge investments, tourism, and
    stability in NI knowing full well that peace may not hold.
    
    By such and such a date, the IRA and other paramilitaries turn in
    some percentage of weapons. As a return gesture the British reduce
    troop concentration by some amount. And so on...  Until it is zero
    on both sides - 0 IRA weapons and enough troops (in whatever form
    they eventually comprise) only for the defense of Ireland (the
    Island, note I didn't say nation).
    
    I agree entirely that the institutions need reformation. But I don't
    view reforming those institutions as disjoint from demilitarization.
    I also agree that most British people want peace in Ireland, even
    though at times their government's effort has been somewhat less than
    fruitful. And if the British are going to let party politics decide
    the future prospects of peace in Northern Ireland, then that isn't
    a good sign.
    
    There were great initial signs from John Major - statesmenlike you
    may call it. But now he has fallen prey to party politics. And in
    that frame of operation, NI will fester as it has.
    
    /g
      

discussion in ::SOAPBOX is now alive and well.  Looks like Mark might
be off to a head start... :)

Chris.

re .205,

I just caught something on the news about decomissioning of weapons
sometime soon.  Unfortunately I just caught the end of it, so I'm not
sure of the details.  Looks promising though!  (As long as the Army
make a similar gesture, that is)

Chris.

    The two main minsiters from irish and british met yesterday and ..well
    said things were looking optimistic...but didn't elaborate...It would
    seem there IS a backroom agenda going on at this stage. They did
    mantion the possibility of a third party getting involved if there was
    to be a weapon handover..which would suggest that its been planned for
    
    yes George.. Agree that it would be good if we got a "timetabled" Plan
    of how the whole 6 counties could be reformed..including
    demilitarization. I think that rather than a barter of weapons for
    British army withdrawl it will be a parallel move on prisoners
    and weapons...The prisoners issue is what both sets of paramilitaries
    have in common.
    
    rgs,
    
    mick
    
    
    

    
    I've thought for a long time that there has been a hidden agenda by all
    sides in this fiasco. As usual, the people in the streets are being
    used as the pawns by Sinn Fein and the British Government. I would
    expect some kind of announcement soon which none of us thought would
    come. Something along the lines of prisoners/weapons/proposals.
    
    Anyway, I've got a serious question! Given that this problem is
    essentially an attitude of mind, namely Orange-loyalism versus
    Nationalist, why doesn't the British Government just simply ban Orange
    parades, Loyalist or Nationalist marches etc; to try and prevent the
    kind of confrontation that we have seen recently?
    
    Bill

 re. 209

 Peaceful parades and demonstrations should always be allowed.  That's a
 healthy sign you're living in a democracy.  Though I can't say I like
 the idea of the Klan marching through downtown Atlanta, any more than
 Loyalist parades marching through Nationalist areas.  Even the Klan/Loyalists 
 deserves to be heard.  By keeping these kinds of marches out in the open,
 people can see these organizations for what they really are, bigots and
 racists.

 Blocking Nationalist people who are peacefully asking for some progress
 on the peace process doesn't seem democratic or fair.  But of course, 
 when have the British ever been fair?  Do you really think that people
 demanding progress on a peace process that has gone practically nowhere
 since it started, are "pawns".  It doesn't take a genius to figure out 
 that if the grass-roots level don't start demanding progress, it won't happen.
 Would you have called the South African's who demonstrated against apartheid,
 the "pawns" of Nelson Mandela and the ANC?  Maybe they were just people fed
 up with the status quo, who wanted to change the country they lived in, for
 the better.

                       Mark

    >Anyway, I've got a serious question! Given that this problem is
    >essentially an attitude of mind, namely Orange-loyalism versus
    >Nationalist, why doesn't the British Government just simply ban Orange
    >parades, Loyalist or Nationalist marches etc; to try and prevent the
    >kind of confrontation that we have seen recently?
    
    Hi Bill, Banning them works in the short term. But in the long term,
    the wound still festers. Eventually, if you started banning enough of
    them, I bet the loyalists would start attacking the British.
    
    Best thing is to raise the fee for the parade application. And donate
    that money to community building programs, sports and recreation,
    meals on wheels, etc... Things that bring a community together.
    
    /George

    
    Well I agree that the banning of marches etc; is not the democratic
    thing to do, but as has been pointed out by our own NI expert, NI is
    not a democracy is it!
    
    What ever happened to the good old kick up the arse or the slap round
    the head?
    
    As for the pawns, Adams,Paisley and the Gov; are all using their own
    supporters as pawns because without the people there is no power and
    when they say something, their supporters react in the way that
    they(the politicians) expect them to react; demo here, demo there,
    march here, march there etc.
    Both sides did not reveal the secret talks that have been going on, and
    what happened?, there were riots in the streets!
    I rest my case!
    
    Bill

    re .199
    
>    As to North Sea oil - more money flows north than south over the
>    Scottish border.

	I love this little "throw away" line which typifies the arrogance 
	and ignorance of the English.

	Now here are the facts :-
	
	The government announced in February this year that the treasury 
	was receiving �50 Million PER DAY in North Sea oil revenue. It is
	common knowledge that the British Government needs these revenues
	in order to keep the English economy running.
    
    RE .195
    
    Are you sure that there are not oil deposits in the North-eastern Irish
    Sea? The British Government doesn't seem so sure. They just issued
    test-drilling licenses recently and those in the know seem to think
    that there is oil down there. Oil was recently discovered to the West
    of The Shetland Islands (in the North Sea to the North East of
    Scotland).
    
    I wonder how much money Scotland would have to give away if all of
    these oil fields were tapped ?

You must really have an enormous chip on your shoulder.

Chris.

> You must really have an enormous chip on your shoulder.
> Chris.

   Wow, what a come back to the facts on oil revenue. 
                Mark

The British have an agreement with other nations, as to the "borders" 
surrounding their countries.  If the Irish were not satisfied with the border, 
they should have disputed it at the time.  The business of revenue leaving 
Scotland and heading to England is total rubbish.  England provides us celts 
with a lot of revenue and opportunity.  Although it bleeds us dry in some 
areas, it helps us out in others.  Without English help, it's debatable whether 
the North sea oil would have been exploited so well.  You need starting 
capital, and that's what they provided.  It may be difficult to understand, for 
some of you, but this country (Britain) is still surprisingly united, and there 
is little/no resentment about cash flowing from one nation to another.

Matt$Welsh_temporary_exile.

Re .216

> The British have an agreement with other nations, as to the "borders" 
> surrounding their countries.  If the Irish were not satisfied with the border, 
> they should have disputed it at the time. 

Irish history test : At what time should the Irish have disputed the border ?
a) When Cromwell's forces grabbed Ireland for the English or
b) When Collins et Al. negotiated the freedom of the South and the 
   partitioning of the North ?

> The business of revenue leaving Scotland and heading to England is total
> rubbish.  England provides us celts with a lot of revenue and opportunity. 
> Although it bleeds us dry in some areas, it helps us out in others. 

England supplies us with a lot of revenue in terms of unemployment benefit.
It bleeds us dry in terms of jobs, industry, etc.

> It may be difficult to understand, for some of you, but this country (Britain)
> is still surprisingly united, and there is little/no resentment about cash
> flowing from one nation to another.

Now, where have I heard that before? Oh, yes, I remember the last Tory 
party Broadcast. Why don't you ask some Scots about that opinion? Do you 
think the Labour Party just decided to give the Scot's a devolved 
parliament just for the hell of it or do you think it was because they saw
that that is what the people wanted?

> Matt$Welsh_temporary_exile.

Does this mean you are Welsh and are temporarily exiled somewhere? or does 
it mean you are a Scot exiled in Wales. Either way you seem to be way out
of touch with the current political feelings here in Scotland. Even some
of your fellow Scottish Tories can't stand what the Westminster bunch are
doing.

Eddie$temporarily_manackled_to_England

    Re .216
    
    Just read your reply in the introduction note.
    
    So you are a Welshman living in Old Blitey Eh?
    
    Well that qualifies you extremely well to comment on Scottish affairs
    doesn't it! Why it makes you almost an expert!
    
    Ed ;-)

By that logic, you aren't exactly qualified to talk about England
then, are you?

Chris.

Ed,

re the oil, don't be pathetic.  

re Scotland

Watch as some raving nationalists get rather chuffed about being granted 
limited devolution.  However, I would be highly amused to see their reaction if 
Scotland was granted a totally independent status, and was left to govern 
itself, finance itself, and fight for itself.  Much as it annoys us foreigners, 
England draws in massive amounts of foreign investment, and then send some of 
it west or north.  You'd be surprised at how disinterested half the investors 
such as Sony, Ford etc would be if the *UK* government didn't wave huge 
subsidies under their noses.  It's naive to think that they come here for 
quality of the workforce.

The type of people who get all excited about total devolution and independence 
are the type of people who have no idea about finance, or England's power in 
the world.  I don't know a helluva lot about the Scottish nationals, but why 
don't you picture their MPs as your Prime minister, your foreign secretary et 
al, and see how much notice Bill Clinton and Helmut Khol take of them.

There's always a problem with extreme patriotism.  It tends to hide the 
reality.

Finally, I dislike the tories, but am not as stupid as the nationalists who 
would have no idea what to do if they were to get any more power than a 
regional assembly.

m.

RE: An independent Scotland

For most of its history Scotland was independent. In the run up to
American independence, Scotland was the model the colonists used to
argue their case (i.e. being a subject of the King gave you identity but
you were ruled by your own [Scots] Parliament). There are very strong
decmocratic traditions there.

re: Oil

Apparently whether it's Scots or English oil depends upon how you draw the
border. If a parallel is drawn then it's mostly Scots oil. If a 'normal'
to the border is constructed then much of it is English. Scotland would
not need to invest in Oil, the Oil Companies would be more than happy to
handle (if not ecstatic!). The same would be true for Industrial development.
The Irish Development Agency is a good model here. Tax breaks are as good
as a subsidy to most investors. 

Independence might bring many benefits to Scotland.

M

> are the type of people who have no idea about finance, or England's power in 
> the world.

   Hahahahahahah!  Good laugh.  England ranks somewhere below Botswana (sorry
   if I insulted any Botwanians), for power in the world.  Let's be serious,
   you make a good lap dog when we need a place to land planes, but you don't
   really have any influence, or power.

                              Mark 

    re .199 A small point maybe, but do you have any facts and figures to
    support your point that more money flows north of the Scottish border
    than south?
    
    rgds
    Mark

    re 216. Again, where's your facts and figures? Also, I'm sure your
    attitude is not shared by most Scots.
    
    rgds
    Mark 

    re 220. The subsidies/inducements that the English government uses to
    attract foriegn investment to Scotland are about the weakest in Europe.
    In fact I think Britain is the only place which does not penalise
    companies for closing factories when the government subsidy agreements
    run out. For Example Unisys was able to close its profitable
    Livingston plant while american and french plants remained open because
    of governemt pressure.
    
    Sorry this is well off topic.
    Mark

    From memory 18billion flows south and 29 billion flows north. Of course
    these were government figures quoted in a newspaper so will immediately
    be rubbished, perhaps correctly. I wouldn't know where to find an
    absolute definitive figure, it probably couldn't be agreed anyway. In
    lieu of any other number I'll go with these.
    50 million a day sounds a lot, it is. 18 billion a year. It is not an
    atypical number for a government. The North Sea oil and gas field
    extends at least as far as Yarmouth, again I have no idea where to find
    a breakdown of North and South of the border.
    
    Andrew

    Re .226
    

As you say, these figures are very difficult to quantify. I cannot dispute
the figures you have quoted but we would need to see exactly what is
included and excluded in these figures. For example the figure of �18 billion
a year which allegedly flows south equates exactly to the oil revenue. That
would imply that the excise duty on whisky is not accounted for.

On a more complex scale we have to consider the cost to Scotland of the
industrial vandalism which has been wreaked upon it by the devastation of
the Scottish steel industry and the Rosyth debacle to name but two. There
are other considerations like most of the Government "Department" jobs
being around London. Let's consider The Department of Energy, of which 
approx 90% of its work is concerned with North Sea Oil. This should be 
moved to Aberdeen (and I believe this proposal was actually in the Tory
Pary manifesto prior to the last election). Office space in London is
about 3 times more expensive than most other UK cities and we, the 
taxpayers of this country are paying more than we need to for the London
premises of these departments. The people who work in these offices are
given a "London weighting" on their salaries because of the higher cost of
living in the capital. This, of course, is also being payed for by the tax
payers throughout the UK.

Another item of expenditure which should be considered and which tends not
to show up in the Governments figures is the cost in 1991 of the rail 
extension into the Isle of Dogs which cost more per mile of track than the
entire Scottish Office's transport budget for the year.

Other "ponderables" are items like the A1 road being upgraded to motorway
standard northwards - but only as far as the Scottish border. This was
supposed to increase the road infrastructure so that "Britain" could take
advantage of the new Channel Tunnel link. It seems an "important part of
Britain" has been overlooked here. Entirely by mistake of course! The Tory
Government isn't really trying to turn Scotland into a theme park are they?

A report in April of this year by Edinburgh University's Centre
for Human Ecology revealed that an Independent Scotland would flourish
and provide a higher standard of living for its citizens. The research
which produced this report was partly funded by the Government's own
agency, Scottish Enterprise. The study suggests that a Scots Government in
control of the country's abundant natural resources would have a multi-
billion pound surplus in the first decade of the next century.

    

re .227,

I'd just like to point out that the `industrial vandalism' that you mention
isn't restricted to Scotland; other areas of the UK which aren't next door
to London have suffered, in some cases far more than Scotland, such as
Wales and Northumbria, and regions such as the midlands and Cornwall have
also been badly affected.  I was unimpressed to hear on the local (SE) news
some people who were almost outraged that a recent defence contract was
awarded to a company based in the West Country rather than the "Home
Counties", which they seem to think have some sort of greater right to
jobs and industry.

Chris.

  The film footage of this on CNN was pretty disturbing.  It looked like the
  RUC sadists were enjoying beating the protesters.  The film footage I saw
  showed no violence on the part of the protesters.  I saw men who were sitting
  down peacefully being dragged off and clubbed in the head by the RUC.

                                Mark


        BELFAST, Northern Ireland (AP) -- In a fresh blow to peace hopes,
police clashed again Saturday with Catholics trying to block a
Protestant march through their neighborhood.
        Ten civilians and 12 police officers were injured in skirmishing
that broke out after police tried to remove 200 Catholics who
blocked a road bridge over the Lagan River. When protesters pelted
them with bottles and stones, police fired rubber bullets, injuring
one man in the face.
        Later, police held back Catholics as some 30 members of the
Apprentice Boys, a fraternal organization that celebrates
Protestant defiance against Catholic King James II in the 17th
century, marched across the bridge as a band played ``loyalist''
tunes.
        As they drew level with the betting shop where Protestant gunmen
killed five people in February, 1992, one of the marchers mimed
spraying the shop with machine-gun fire.
        Angered Catholics broke through the police cordon to kick the
armored vehicles, chanting ``Up the IRA.''
        The fighting, which closely mirrored a clash between Catholics
and police on the Lagan bridge over a Protestant Orange Order march
July 12, increased pressure on politicians to restart Northern
Ireland's stalled peace process.
        As the first anniversary of an Irish Republican Army cease-fire
approaches, parties remain deadlocked over Britain's refusal to
admit the IRA-allied Sinn Fein party to all-party talks until the
outlawed groups surrenders its weapons.
        Later Saturday, hundreds of Apprentice Boys marched around the
walls of Londonderry, 60 miles (96 kms) northwest of Belfast, to
mark the relief of the city in l689 when 13 Apprentice Boys slammed
its gates shut on James' army.
        Chanting Catholics had tried to block the march from crossing
the stretch of wall overlooking the Catholic Bogside area, but
police stood in their way.
        Fighting that exploded during the Londonderry march on Aug. 12,
1969 sparked rioting in Catholic areas all over the British-ruled
province, beginning 25 years of sectarian ``troubles.''
        That ended on Sept. 1, when the IRA began a cease-fire.
Protestant gunmen announced a truce of their own on Oct. 13.


    I thought the British stopped using rubber bullets in NI?
    
    /G

>    I thought the British stopped using rubber bullets in NI?
>

   I guess not when it's one of those "special occasions", like supporting
   their pals the Apprentice Boys and their mimicking the murder of five
   innocent people.

   Anyone can see where the British government stand on the "peace process".
   It's been almost a year and they still refuse to hold high level talks
   with their adversaries.  We've seen the release of murderer Clegg, the
   disgusting treatment being dealt out to Irish POWs, the push to extradite
   those from the U.S. seeking political asylum, and now the insistence on
   a unilateral surrender by the Irish Republican Army.
  

                     Mark

Irish Republican Information Service


Plastic  bullet  victim  shot  at  point-blank  range
RUC paramilitary police attacked and fired plastic bullets at nationalist
protesters on the lower Ormeau Road in south Belfast on Saturday
morning, August 12, injuring dozens of local people including one man
struck at point-blank range in the face by a four-inch long plastic bullet
travelling at more than 150 miles per hour.
Two hundred nationalists sat down on the Ormeau Road at about
8.15am to prevent the triumphalist march past of about 20 Apprentice
Boys and their band, who were en route to Derry for the annual loyalist
Apprentice Boys parade. A huge squad of RUC armed with batons and
plastic bullet guns and dressed in helmets and protective clothing waded
into the crowd, dragging men and women across the road by the hair
and neck. Those who linked arms to prevent this were batoned. Women
were punched by the RUC as full-scale fighting broke out and went on
for an hour. The RUC claimed later that only four plastic bullets were
fired.
Gerard Rice, spokesperson for the Lower Ormeau Concerned
Community, retrieved the plastic bullet which seriously injured a man in
his early 20s and told journalists: "This went right through that young
fellow's face. It smashed his cheekbone and a bit of his jaw. He's lost a
lot of teeth. It came out the side of his mouth when he fell." The plastic
bullet left a gaping hole in his face and he was taken away seriously
injured. An eyewitness told the Irish Times (August 14) that a group of
local people met the RUC at the bottom of the street. "We started to
back off because they had blocked us in. We weren't rioting. An RUC
man just lifted his plastic bullet gun. 'You're all Fenian bastards,' he
 said.
And then he opened fire from point-blank range. That's the truth," the
resident said.
The RUC cleared the street to allow the tiny number of loyalists march
through. A woman who was punched in the face by the RUC said:
"There's no justice for nationalists in the North of Ireland". According to
the Irish Times journalist present a number of Provisional Sinn FEin and
"two senior IRA members" from west Belfast tried to stop the crowd
resisting the RUC onslaught. Locals reacted to this: "We'll fight these
bastards even if you won't," one said. "The ceasefire is rubbish," said
another, "You have to sit on the road, allow the RUC to knock the hell
out of you, and there's no IRA there to get them later". "We've been
beaten off the streets," said a third man, "this is 1963 America all over
again". Gerard Rice said "There is no peace process . . . they [the RUC]
laughed as they beat us". RUC Assistant Chief Constable for Belfast Bill
Stewart said his force had acted with "commendable restraint".
Republican Sinn FEin in Belfast said on August 12 that nationalist people
had been left defenceless in the face of the sectarian policing of the RUC.
The organisation pledged "full support and solidarity with the people of
the Ormeau Road in their opposition to RUC and Orange triumphalism".
Republican Sinn F=E9in, Belfast, said the events on the Ormeau Road and
in Derry (see below) proved that a lasting peace could not be built on the
current process which was based upon the "oppressed making
concessions to the oppressors".

Derry  protesters  removed  to  allow  loyalists  march
THE Apprentice Boys achieved a second success on the morning of
August 12 when about 1,000 RUC members removed 200 protesters
from a part of the historic Derry City walls which overlook the nationalist
Bogside area in order to allow 200 loyalists and four bands to parade
there for the first time in living memory. The Apprentice Boys march on
the city walls occurred at 9.30am on August 12 as a prelude to the main
march through the streets of the city centre later that day. The local
nationalists had occupied the part of the walls since
the previous night but it is obvious a decision had been taken by the
British government as early as the previous Wednesday to force the
Apprentice Boys loyalist march through.
The RUC pulled the seated protesters by the head and face out of the
route and manhandled men and women alike. Local Provisional leader
Martin McGuinness went through the crowd telling them "Everybody, be
peaceful" and then walked off the walls himself without being
manhandled by the RUC. The RUC commander, Freddie Hall, smiled
with satisfaction at the outcome. Later on during the main Apprentice
Boys march attended by 16,000 loyalists, each band stopped at
Butchers Gate in the city walls to play an Orange tune above the
nationalist Bogside area below -- a blatantly triumphalist gesture.
On RTE radio's Between the Lines programme on August 14 a journalist
described how an RUC member kicked a nationalist demonstrator in the
crotch as they were being removed from Derry's walls to allow the
loyalists march. An RUC spokesperson wouldn't comment on the
incident.
Disturbances broke out again in Derry, Armagh and other areas on
August 12 as news of the trouble in Belfast and Derry spread.
Nationalists threw petrol-bombs at plastic bullet-firing RUC. At a rally in
Belfast on August 13 marking the 24th anniversary of the introduction of
internment without trial by the British, there were clashes between
nationalist marchers and loyalist gangs who tried to attack the marchers.

>Irish Republican Information Service

now that sounds like a reputable and unbiased source of information...
(yeah yeah, why don't I educate myself, same old crap ad nauseum)

Chris.

    You should educate yourself chris, or at least open your mind a bit.
    For instance try contrasting the previous note with the scant coverage
    of the recent clashes on BBC news.
    
    BTW the way there was some oblique references on last nights BBC news
    about moving the troops out of NI. Also some British military high-up
    said that Britain should take the initiative away from Gerry Adams and
    remove the troops thus reinforcing the peace process. It appears even
    the British military are impatient with the governments
    procrastination.
    
    cheers
    Mark

I missed that bit.  "About bloody time", as they say...

Chris.

    "Scant coverage"? I watch very little news but even I saw reports of
    this on the tele, aside from Bosnia I would say NI still dominates the
    hard news stories in the UK. But I digress...
    
    Let me run the clock forward 10 years and imagine everything goes the
    way the republicans/catholics desire. Ireland is united and Britain has
    no more to do with NI, the RUC has gone.
    
    Will we be reading that the apprentice boys marched freely? Or will the
    situation be reversed?
    
    Whether I read Mark's posting, or whether I read the UK press I see no
    long term solution to NI. More worryingly, thoses who talk at great
    length about it in here and elsewhere seem to have no answers either.
    
    So long as peace exists the army should be reduced, and moves to peace
    should come from all sides.
    
    Andrew

>  Will we be reading that the apprentice boys marched freely? Or will the
>    situation be reversed?

I don't see why not. The events they commemorate were associated with
a rejection of the British Crown. It's only comparitively recently that
they have come to symbolize "Unionism". [last 90 yrs or so!]. 

It all boils down to whatever piece of history you want to focus on!


Mark

  The bottom line, is that after a year long cease-fire by the Irish      
 Republican Army, the British government is still refusing to sit down
  and hold high level talks with the Nationalist party Sinn Fein.
  Sinn Fein has a democratic mandate, and as such should have been admitted
  to high level talks eons ago.  
  I'm not convinced the British government want peace, or out of north east
  Ireland.

                              Mark

    The British appear to be taking a very "reactive" stance concerning
    Northern Ireland, and not "proactive". This is too bad that they
    cannot take advantage of and capitalize on the peace initiative.
    
    I suspect we will see some movement from the British before Clinton's
    visit. But that will again be reactive and not proactive. Where is
    the imagination and commitment that the British government so often
    spoke about last year?
    
    /George

from An Phoblacht/Republican News
Sept. 28, 1995

------------------

     Two British soldiers have been questioned in Belfast
following the theft of machine guns from British army stores. Two
other men, a former member of the crown forces and a surplus arms
dealer were arrested after six machine guns were seized in
Lincolnshire and other automatic weapons were found in Hampshire.

     We do not know where all the guns in the first case went but
we can guess that in this, as in so many similar incidents, they
followed the well-trodden path from crown forces to loyalist
gangs. Recent court cases involving loyalist death squad leader
John Adair and Gary McMaster, a convicted murderer and Adair
accomplice, heard details of how a British army sterling
submachine gun was used in attacks against Sinn Fein members.

     During his trial for "directing terrorism" the prosecution
said that Adair, the UDA's West Belfast commander, had knowledge
of a machine gun attack at the home of Sinn Fein Councillor Alex
Maskey in January 1994. Adair told the RUC that one of the guns
was "a clean weapon" that shouldn't have been used in the attack.

     The firearm was a British army issue sterling submachine
that that was  "reactivated" for use by the loyalists.

     Some of the stolen weapons had been, "deactivated", having
had their firing mechanisms removed but these parts can easily be
replaced according to weapons experts. Further details about this
sterling sub-machine gun emerged during the McMaster trial. In
February last year McMaster was the assassin who opened fire on
workers repairing Sinn Fein's West Belfast headquarters Connolly
House which had been hit by an RPG rocket a few days previously.

     The Sterling used was the same as in the Maskey attack.
Three workers repairing damage caused in a previous rocket attack
were wounded.

     There are at least three cases pending in the North where
'reactivated' British army weapons were used.


     Parts from a general purpose machine gun traced back to the
Six Counties have been found in the home of the above mentioned
former soldier in England, while a cache of 7.62mm SLRs
(self-loading rifles) are also reported to be hidden in dumps in
the same area. SLR's were the standard weapon issued to British
troops in the Six Counties before being replaced by the SA80.

     Ministry of Defence officials are also said to be
"cooperating" with an inquiry by the British army's Special
Investigation Branch in an attempt to trace up to 100 other
weapons which may have been rebuilt using essential parts taken
from a number of British bases across the Six Counties.

     These "deactivated" weapons can be fully rearmed in 45
minutes by a licensed armourer using what was described as
"standard" gun parts and basic DIY tools. Loyalists, with years
of experience manufacturing home made weapons, now have a read
y source of supplies facilitated by their connections with
British military personnel and criminals gangs in Britain. Dare I
mention the 'D' word again?


           The Sinn Fein picket on the British vessel

     Not since 1964 when a well-known republican fired a shot at
a Royal Navy vessel in Cork Harbour had a British warship docked
in the southern port.

     Then last week HMS Orkney paid an unwelcome visit and
provoked angry protests from Cork republicans. On Friday night,
22 September, James McBarron of Cork Sinn Fein climbed on board
and lowered the union jack. He was prevented from throwing
 it into the river by the actions of gardai. A sailor who was
obviously asleep on watch when the flag was lowered offered some
rope to tie up McBarron, but the gardai satisfied themselves with
handcuffs. James McBarron was arrested as was Paul Walsh who was
simply standing on the quayside with his girlfriend. Both were
 charged under the Criminal Justice Act, and subsequently
released on bail.

     The protests continued on Saturday, with the gardai being
forced to close the gates to Custom House Quay.



    What is the "D" word?
    
    What is so awful about a British warship visiting Cork? Did the local
    Sinn Fein think Britain was about to invade?
    
    Andrew

    RE: -.1
    
    Well, it's a touch ironic that you should say that.
    
    During WW2, Churchill did consider that as an option so that 
    the Royal Navy would have a base much closer to the Atlantic.
    He was pretty cheesed off by Irish neutrality.
    
    John 
    

    I suppose he was pretty cheesed off when De Valera(sp?) popped round to
    the German Embassy to express his condolences when hitler died !?!
    
    Shaun

> What is the "D" word?

  Stumped me, any one else know?

>      What is so awful about a British warship visiting Cork? Did the local
>    Sinn Fein think Britain was about to invade?

  I think it has something to do with national sovereignty.  What business
  does a British warship have sailing into an Irish port?

  How would you feel if ships from a larger, more powerful nation like
  Pakistan or Malaysia, were visiting England?  Flexing their muscle.

                       Mark
    

Here we go again, despite widespread feeling to debate and discuss in
a none provocative way, some people can't help themselves.  Can I suggest
that you read `how to win friends and influence people'?  Or are you not
interested in that sort of thing?

Chris.

    Mark,
    
    I'm sure you know that warships visit countries all the time. This is
    part of civilisation. Russian ships visit Britain, US ships, etc etc.
    We don't rush aboard and tear down the flags in a belief, well what
    belief beats me but you get my point.
    
    Now if we steamed in uninvited and proceeded to rape and pillage...
    
    Andrew

  �I think it has something to do with national sovereignty.  What business
  �does a British warship have sailing into an Irish port?

    I havn't, unfortunately, read anything concerning this incident Mark
    yet i'm sure that the Royal Navy would have sought clearence before
    entering Irish Waters.
    
  �How would you feel if ships from a larger, more powerful nation like
  �Pakistan or Malaysia, were visiting England?  Flexing their muscle.
    
    Personaly, i'd be quite happy if a ship from Pakistan or Malaysia
    entered British Waters...i certainly wouldn't see it as an exercise in
    'flexing muscles' and i'm quite amazed that you do.
    
    Are we at war with Pakistan or Malaysia....news to me!!
    
    Shaun
    
    

    Shaun,
    
    I hope you won't mind if I clarify your note for Mark:-
    
    Britain is _NOT_ at war with Ireland.
    
    Thanks
    
    Andrew

    Andrew,
    
    That was my point....one could only consider another nation to be
    'flexing its muscles' if said nations were on a war footing. We are not
    at war with Malaysia or Pakistan thus we would have no notion of
    'muscle flexing'.
    
    Neither are we at war with Ireland so why the reaction by Mark ?
    
    Shaun

    I think it's safe to assume that any warship entering Cork harbour,
    British or otherwise, has been invited to do so.
    
    Laurie.

    RE: .249
    
    I disagree. "Muscle-flexing" is the sort of thing that goes on
    *outside* of a war footing, usually in advance thereof. It is the sort
    of thing that one would expect the British to be guilty of if they were
    about to declare war on Ireland; frankly, a completely preposterous
    idea. 
    
    Helpfully, Laurie.

    Maybe we're splitting hairs here but if a country was about to declare
    war on another country then i'd say said countries were on a war
    footing.
    
    In my dictionary (famous), war footing is the state prior to
    declaaration of war. Having said that, if we compare muscle flexing to
    sabre-rattling then i'd agree with Laurie.
    
    Anyway.....lets not labour the point Stan.
    
    Shaun

 Alright.  Now envision that this more powerful nation (say Pakistan), was
 holding British Prisoners of Wars in it's prisons.  Or say, it had enacted
 a "shoot-to-kill" policy against British military personal. Or how about
 it had an internationally condemned human rights record regarding the 
 treatment of British citizens in Pakistan. Now could you understand why
 some English citizens might be upset when the Pakistani warship pulled up
 the Thames?

                         Mark

    
    Pakistan is clearly somewhere I need to worry about!
    
    Are you suggesting that:-
    
    Britain is holding prisoners of war? Britain is at war with no-one,
    well maybe Argentina.?
    
    Britain has a shoot to kill policy against some other country's army?
    
    Britain has an internationally condemmed HR record? against who?
    
    Have you been out in the sun?
    
    Andrew

    re .253
    
    Your note assumes, in its comparison, that the IRA are to be compared
    with a legitimate military army - acting on behalf of a democraticaly
    elected government. This is not the case. The IRA have no democratic
    mandate and are thus terrorists. Now if we re-write your note correctly
    we get:
    
 Alright.  Now envision that this more powerful nation (say Pakistan), was
 holding British terroists in it's prisons.  Or say, it had enacted
 a "shoot-to-kill" policy against British terrorists. Or how about
 it had an internationally condemned human rights record regarding the 
 treatment of British terrorists in Pakistan. Now could you understand why
 some English citizens might be upset when the Pakistani warship pulled up
 the Thames?
    
    Dosn't seem to have the same propoganderal effect...does it ?
    
    Shaun
    

.255 says it for me.

Chris.

re .250

> invitation

Not that the Irish could do much about it if they weren't :-(.

                     James.

  re. .254
>    Are you suggesting that:-
    
>    Britain is holding prisoners of war?

     Yes, most definately.  I refer you to note 1252 (In it I have listed the
     names and addresses of Irish pows.
        

>    Britain has a shoot to kill policy against some other country's army?

     Yes, they have a "shoot to kill" policy against the Irish Nationalists.

>    Britain has an internationally condemmed HR record? against who?

     Irish Nationalists.  I refer you to the European courts recent rulings,
     the human rights reports of Amnesty International regarding north
     east Ireland, and the Helsinki Watch Human rights reports regarding
     north east Ireland.


  re. .255

  And your note assumes that the Irish Republican Army are terrorists.
  Might I point out that one man's terrorist, is another's freedom fighter.
  Might I also mention that Britain once referred to another bunch of
  freedom fighter's as terrorists.  In the U.S. we called them the 
  the son's of liberty.  Chew on that.

                   Mark

    � Yes, most definately.  I refer you to note 1252 (In it I have listed the
    � names and addresses of Irish pows.
    
    Sorry but this is unfactual...see next comment.
    
    �Yes, they have a "shoot to kill" policy against the Irish Nationalists.
    
    And this is 'another country's army' is it....so if I suddenly declare
    that I represent the Portsmouth Republican Army then I would be
    considered a POW and that my army, consisting of my cat and a gerbil,
    will be avidly defended by you will it ?...even though I represent no
    democratic elected government ? And if I were to be locked away as a
    complete nutter then I would effectively be a POW....what an
    interesting view of the world you have Mark.
    
  �Might I point out that one man's terrorist, is another's freedom fighter.
  
    You may and I agree with the statement only if both men fight for
    freedom via democraticaly accepted means....I don't think paramilitary
    action is one of them.
    
    �Might I also mention that Britain once referred to another bunch of
    �freedom fighter's as terrorists.  In the U.S. we called them the 
    �the son's of liberty.
    
    You may, and yes they did. I also remember that the same remarks were
    made during the American Civil War......I hope you are also an avid
    supporter of independance for the south.
    
    �Chew on that.
    
    How quaint....when entering debate with you I had assumed that you were
    a reasonably intelligent person who had made an effort to at least try
    and research arguments for your adopted beliefs. I was, unfortunately,
    quite wrong - and for that I am sorry.
    
    Shaun

    I hope that anyone who wishes to enter a note in this conference
    has read our moderator's many requests for good manners. See
    notes 1071 and 1356, for instance.
    
    Remember, this isn't usenet, where comments disappear within the month.
    Nor is it soapbox or EF, where comments are archived after a year.
    In this  forum, our comments will bear witness to our intelligence
    for many, many years. I hope our bosses in five years' time will
    think us thoughtful and wise individuals.
    

> Sorry but this is unfactual...see next comment.

  Unfactual?  I assure you that the men and women who have fought for the
  Irish Republican Army, and are now held prisoner in British jails, do
  not consider it unfactual.  Neither do their fellow soldiers in the Irish
  Republican Army who are still on active duty.  Neither do their supporters
  in the Nationalist community.  Neither did the British government until
  Maggot Thatcher decided on a new policy of criminalization of the Irish
  Republican Army.  You see, you don't need to try and convice me, you need
  to try and convice the people your government has been fighting against.

> Portsmouth Republican Army then I would be
> considered a POW and that my army, consisting of my cat and a gerbil,

  How interesting.  

> And if I were to be locked away as a
>     complete nutter then I would effectively be a POW.

  Nope, you're a nutter.  Somehow, I can't picture a man and his pet's as
  an Army.


> You may and I agree with the statement only if both men fight for
> freedom via democraticaly accepted means....I don't think paramilitary
> action is one of them.

  Democratically accepted means, that's rich.  I've never heard that one
  applied to a war before.  Does that include things like, you wear the
  red coats, and we'll were the green?  I didn't realize warfare had
  democratically accepted means.  I don't remember being asked to vote on
  the Gulf War.  They must have forgotten to invite me to the polls.

> You may, and yes they did. I also remember that the same remarks were
> made during the American Civil War......I hope you are also an avid
> supporter of independance for the south. 

  If there had been British forces fighting alongside the north, then
  you can bet I would have been a supporter of independence for the south.

>    How quaint....when entering debate with you I had assumed that you were
>    a reasonably intelligent person who had made an effort to at least try
>    and research arguments for your adopted beliefs. I was, unfortunately,
>    quite wrong - and for that I am sorry.

  This from a man who brings his pet Gerbil into the argument.  Uh-huh.

                         Mark

The classic Mark Holohan debating style: when your standpoint collapses,
try insulting people instead.

Chris.

    Mark, please try and read my notes rather than automaticaly thinking of
    opposing arguments for them....some of which I'm sure you don't believe
    yourself.
    
    The comment you made that was unfactual was that you said the republican
    prisoners were 'POW's - thats Prisoners Of War....this is an unfactual
    statement as Britain is not at *war* with the country that the IRA is
    supposedy fighting for. In fact, as the IRA does not represent any
    government then it is not a legitimate army and therefore cannot claim
    POW statuys, you'll find that the Geneva Convention states this quite
    clearly.
    
    The IRA prisoners themselves have always pushed for Political Prisoner
    Status rather than POW status....still, you know best eh ?
    
    The fact that you consider a group of people, representing no
    government, as an Army means that you must consider me and my cat
    (representing no government) as an army for your claim to hold ground.
    
  �Democratically accepted means, that's rich.  I've never heard that one
  �applied to a war before.
    
    When I used the term 'Democratically accepted means' I meant
    'peacefully' eg by demonstration, by negotiation etc. Even Sinn Fein
    are supposedly pushing to solve the problem via democratic means today
    - maybe you should take note.
    
  �I didn't realize warfare had
  �democratically accepted means.  I don't remember being asked to vote on
  �the Gulf War.  They must have forgotten to invite me to the polls.
    
    Nor did I....and I said it did....I think you must be confusing me with
    someone else.
    
  �If there had been British forces fighting alongside the north, then
  �you can bet I would have been a supporter of independence for the south.

    And all along I thought you were interested in Human Rights abuses with
    respect to the troubles and had visions of a united Ireland.....when 
    obviously it just the Brits you hate - I must say that you really have
    credited your previou points with this statement.
    
    Shall I now add my personal view Mark? You give republicism a bad name.
    
    Shaun
    


  Alright Shaun,

   Whether we refer to Irish Republican Army prisoners as Political Prisoners
  or Prisoners of War is a matter of semantics.  Let's agree to disagree.

> this is an unfactual
> statement as Britain is not at *war* 

  O.K. you can call 30,000 British forces in north east Ireland policeman,
  and I'll call them soldiers pursuing a war.  Let's agree to disagree.

> IRA does not represent any
>    government then it is not a legitimate army

  O.K. you can use whatever terms you like to define an army.  I'll continue
  to use my American Heritage Dictionary - A large body of people organized
  for warfare.  Let's agree to disagree.

> Geneva Convention states this quite
>     clearly.

  The Geneva Convention states a lot of things.  That doesn't mean your country,
  mine, or any other's necessary follows it's rules.  It seems that rules are
  the first thing thrown out during a war.  And yet, believe it or not, even
  though the rules of the Geneva convention are chucked aside, we still refer
  to military action between two parties as war.  Amazing.

>     The fact that you consider a group of people, representing no
>    government, as an Army means that you must consider me and my cat
>    (representing no government) as an army for your claim to hold ground.

  No, but once again I get my definition from a dictionary. So let's agree
  to disagree.

> When I used the term 'Democratically accepted means' I meant
>    'peacefully' eg by demonstration, by negotiation etc. Even Sinn Fein
>    are supposedly pushing to solve the problem via democratic means today
>    - maybe you should take note.

  Ah, here we agree on something.  I'm all for peacefull resolution of
  problems between two parties.  Yet armed British forces still reside in
  north east Ireland, and the Irish Republican Army are still armed.
  Go figure!  Tell you what, what if the British stopped dragging
  their feet and agreed to sit down at the peace table.  The first thing on
  the agenda could be the removal of the gun from Irish politics. 
  The British forces can turn in their weapons to an Internationally 
  accepted third party, and the Irish Republican Army can do the same.
  Gee, makes you wonder why the British government haven't sat down yet
  doesn't it? Ummm, maybe there is another agenda going on here?  What do
  think?

> And all along I thought you were interested in Human Rights abuses with
>   respect to the troubles and had visions of a united Ireland.....when 
>    obviously it just the Brits you hate - 

 Look, I could come off with the same type of inane comments, and say you
 hate the Irish.  What's the point.  I doubt it would be any truer than
 your statement that I hate Brits.  What point does this serve in your
 argument?

> Shall I now add my personal view Mark? You give republicism a bad name.

 Good. Now I'll no longer have to hear from you or any of your fellow Brits
 that I'm the voice of Republicanism.  I only speak for myself.  Please
 pass your thoughts on to your friends, I'll continue to post human rights
 reports, alternative news information, and my opinions on topics.

                               Mark
          

    

    Mark, now that was a good note....and i'm not being sarcastic! You have
    a point about semantic. Theres's a book called "Chronicles of Dissent"
    by Noam Chomsky that discusses this in great depth...a favourite
    example is how the "War Ministry" changed its name to "The Ministry of
    Defense" thus changing the underlying meassage and image of a ministry
    without changing its day to day work.
    
    However, two opposing parties entering into negotiation often fall out
    over the semantics of the negotiation. How often have we heard both
    sides of the conflict in NI expressing concern over "the wording" of a
    document....such as the Downing Street Agreement or even the Hume/Adams
    Document. You may say "lets agree to disagree" yet I feel that if we
    agrre on semantics then we are half way to agreeing 100% - the sort of
    agreement that both sides of the political argument wish to achieve.
    
    Contrary to what you perhapps think, I am in fact for a united Ireland
    by peacefull means and yet I recognise that the Majority of NI people
    wish , at this moment in time, to remain British. I also feel that the
    British Government is thus obliged to respect this wish (something that
    perhapps it should also do for the many citizens of Hong Kong....but
    thats another story).
    
    I understand also that the majority of NI who do wish to remain british
    will not be convinced otherwise by the rhetorical language that you
    have used so far in your notes. As I would wish to see a united ireland
    then such language, in my view, is detrimental to the goal.
    
    Hence my need to try to correct such rhetoric as and when I see it.
    
    That said, I hope we can continue debating this on a more mutual
    appreciable level.
    
    Shaun.

    Is it true that John Major/Hume/Adams have been nominated for the Nobel
    Peace Prize?...
    
    ..news reports this morning seemed pretty confident...
    
    Ray...

    The tories don't want it as they feel it will over-shadow the Tory
    Conference....nothing like getting their priorities right, is there?!!
    
    Shaun

Re .266

It seems that the Pugwash Institute have won this year's Nobel Prize!  Are 
these people any relation to that now infamous BBC children's cartoon series
of the 60's/70's: Captain Pugwash and Seaman Stains ;-)?
 
Seriously though, it seems the Pugwash Institute are a anti-nuclear
organisation who's been fighting for 40 years against the threat of
nuclear destruction.

I can't say that I'd heard of them before and certainly cannot say whether
they have achieved anything in that time!

                          James.

>Captain Pugwash and Seaman Stains ;-)?
 
sadly, the characters Seaman Stains, Master Bates and Roger the Cabin Boy
are all products of urban legends, in fact I think that the Mirror was
sued by the story's creator a few years ago by perpetuating these stories...

Sorry to be such an anorak!

Chris.

re -1

:-)

>    �Might I also mention that Britain once referred to another bunch of
>    �freedom fighter's as terrorists.  In the U.S. we called them the 
 >   �the son's of liberty.
    
>    You may, and yes they did. I also remember that the same remarks were
>    made during the American Civil War......I hope you are also an avid
>    supporter of independance for the south.
 

The American situation is a little different to the Irish. Nobody from Ireland
ever had the chance to vote for Union with Britain, that was largly imposed
upon them. On the other hand, the USA was formed as a "Perpetual Union" and
states had to voluntarily join it. Although it seems strange now, the original
13 colonies were not keen on others joining (and so diluting their sovereignty).
New states had to work hard at gaining entry. Though, once you are in you're
in forever. 


Of course that does raise an interesting constitutional point. If Ireland were
an American state, there would be no question of secession. On the other
hand if the "King in Parliament" decides ...

Mark