Conference noted::bicycle

I'll be there.  I did it a couple of years ago.

   Machine: Pinarello Treviso
      Age:     37
      Gears:   30 x 39
      Goal:    Sub 1:20...
 
Phil   

    Machine:  Richard Sachs
    Age:      42
    Gears:    42x14,16,20,22,24,26
    Goal:     To never ride this thing again, after a 72:00 14th place in
              Is and IIs in '79!

    
    Machine:  Specialized Epic (a FLYE next year)
    Age:      28
    Gears:    24, 12x28 (nothing macho just sit and spin)
    Goal:     Sub 1:10
    
    					Norm
    
    

     Re; sub 1:10... Nothing macho, eh Norm? I'd cut my toes off for a
    sub 1:10!
    
     Chip

    Sub 1:10 would be close to the winning time, weather permitting ...
    
    Mark Reid
    Goal: 1:25 or better, which would be a PR by a minute or more,
                                                 
    Gears: in the past ... used 39 x 30-34 cogs
    
    Possible fixed gear this year if I can get the
    crank (Mavic = can have small ring down to 24)
    and fixed gear GEL280 wheel built.
    
    No deuraillers, no shifters, shorter chain, no
    shift cables, no rear brake, no large chainrings,
    no heavy cassette or freewheel with useless cogs,
    fingernails clipped, teeth flossed, ..........

    ...body shaved, eyebrows plucked, fillings drilled, no seat, helium
    filled tires and frame, amphetamine overdose... :-)
    
        Chip

    Chip, have you investigated replacing the Fe in your red blood cells
    with Ti?
    
    ed

     I never thought of that... Do you think the folks at ONE A DAY
    vitamins might consider it????
    
      Chip

     Before anyone brings it up, I would probably opt for the manly
    thing... Molten Ti introduced intravenously!
    
     :-) NOT!!!

    
    	Re:-2,-3
    
    		Don't forget to have an enema that morning.8*)
    

    
      I have been sub 1:20 three years in a row.  Last year when I found
    gearing that was comfortable for me I did around 1:15.  I was not in
    my best shape though.  
      This year now that I have found gearing I like I will make sure that 
    I am in shape.  I have talked to a couple of people that have done Mt.
    Washington numerous times. They needed a few races to figure out
    their gearing, clothing, bike equipment, etc.  
      This year a secondary goal is to not hit a pebble or pothole on the
    23% grade at the end.  Three years in a row now I have come to a
    complete stop after hitting one of the above.  I don't like doing track
    stands on something that steep.  I have not fallen over yet but I did 
    lose two sprints.
    
    
    							Norm
    
    

RE: <<< Note 2362.11 by WMOIS::FLYE_N >>>
    
>    They needed a few races to figure out
>    their gearing, clothing, bike equipment, etc.

Do you have any advice to share with respect to clothing? Both what to wear on
the way up, and on the way down. For the down-going clothes, how do you carry
them?
						-- Tom

    Going down??? You cannot ride your bike down - you must arrange for
    auto transportation down before the race. This is spelled out in detail
    in the race app. SO, just have warm clothes to change into after the
    race, and you will be riding down in an auto.
    
    Going up is a tricky situation as far as clothing.  I've done the race
    a couple times and both times I felt overdressed at the bottom few
    miles, and a little underdressed at the top few miles!  It's ALWAYS
    much cooler and more windy the top few miles, so you must plan for
    that.  I would not recommend any clothing that would require stopping
    to put on or take off ... you never want to stop in this race! (very
    very hard to restart). 
    
    Pre-race they give you weather conditions at the top, which often are
    frightfully extreme!  In 1989 and 1990 they exaggerated the cold temps
    (it was warmer than they said), but wind was accurate.  Still ... maybe
    they will be accurate this year ..?? so don't totally ignore!
    
    Tips: skip booties; feet don't get that cold, and if it's raining then
                        the booties soak up water & get heavy.
    
          Helmet required? I think so.  Skip the face balaclava or liner ...
            your head will be hot from the effort - guaranteed.
    
          Jersey/shirt liner: I would not recommend anything that holds a
            lot of sweat; you will probably be hot the first few miles and
            sweating profusely.  Better to have the sweat evaporate than
            stay (heavy) soaked in the shirt/liner.
    
          water/nutrition:  I bring 1 large waterbottle filled with water
            and carbo mix.  I tried one year with just water (no carbo mix)
            and I bonked 1/2 mile from the top & slowed way down.  The mix
            (like CYtomax, Exceed, NutriGold, etc) puts off the bonk just
            long enough for me to finish.
    
    Good luck!
    Mark

I haven't registered yet (got to look a back notes to see for info...) but would
like to do it on the tandem.  So I am sending out an appeal to anybody who
would be interested in racing up Mt Wash on a tandem.  Unfortunately my TT
partner can't make it so I would like to find somebody else (sorry John...)

Just think, we will probably finish in the top 3 of the tandem division!!!

Send me mail at CTHQ::FRERE.

Eric

RE: <<< Note 2362.13 by USIC02::MREID >>>

>    you must arrange for auto transportation down before the race.

Is the road open to cars before the race starts, then, to allow a friend or
family member to drive up and wait? Does the car need to register in any form
(other than the toll charge)?
						-- Tom

    
      The climb is so demanding that I have found that wearing just a
    jersey and shorts was enough.  Climbing through the trees at the bottom
    is very warm and heats me up plenty for the treeless top part.  Last
    year the wind chill factor was 24F and I was sweating.  
      I do ride prepared though.  On the way up I carry a windbreaker, arm
    and leg warmers.  At the top I accept the wool blanket offered to me
    and head for the car.  Inside the car is my duffel bag with everything
    for the worst winter day.  This includes a towel to dry off, thermal
    underwear, heavy jacket, wool blanket, down sleeping bag, gloves and 
    anything else I can think of to keep warm.  I like to be prepared.
    Twice I have seen ice at the summit and the race has been cancelled due
    to snow.  Last year at the base lodge the temp was about 50F.  Near the
    summit I encountered some sleet.  After getting dressed I return the
    blanket to the finish line volunteers and comfortably cheer on the rest
    of the finishers.
    
    							Norm
    
    
    After I get dressed I return the blanket to the finish line. 

    
      Must be a Digital computer.  The screen went blank and yet I was
    still able to enter my reply with some glitches.  Please disregard the
    extra sentence and letter.
    
    
    						Norm
    
    

    A question from a curious biker from over the pond.
    
    Whats the distance and elevation for this ride?
    
    Cheers
    
    Dave

    awesome.

I think the above #'s are about right.

Phil

    Look at it like this:
    
    IT'S ONLY ONE HILL.
    
    ed

    If this climb were in the Tour what category would be assigned to it?
    
    Don

I raced up it and drove down it with a guy that did Alpe de Huez and he said
Mt. Washington was harder, albeit shorter.  The elevation gain per mile is
significantly greater up Mt. Washington.  If my memory serves me, it's
something like 600'/mile vs. 400'/mile.

Phil

I dont know about Alpe de Huez but the road up Mt. Washington is
dirt.  Just cant stand up without the rear wheel sliding and heaven
forbid if you have to stop and get back on... almost impossible.
Which leads to the question is there any advantage to using hibrid
tires or other non-road bike configurations?

Larry (who may have one the last people to ride up before they
closed it to cyclists)

re .23

That makes the Mt. Evans ride that I just did, 6800ish feet in 28 miles, sound 
like a weenie ride.  600 feet per mile is one heck of a grade.

Mark

    
    The Mt. Washington road is consistently steeper than Mt. Evans,
    and is dirt in places, yes.  However the 6800' you mention is
    broken into two halves, as you experienced: the first half, starting
    in Idaho Springs, is a relatively gentle climb, levelling off.
    The second half of the road mileage makes up for this and is steep.
    
    Mt. Evans presents more problems with crosswinds, I believe, than
    Mt. Washington, because the switchbacks are more exposed (and more
    mileage is above the timberline - Mt. Washington's timberling is at
    4800').  Plus which, there's thin air to contend with up Mt. Evans.
    
    Both formidable climbs!
    
    -john

That sounds about right.  4500+ ft climb 7.6 miles.  12.5% average grade
22%+ max grade.  First 1/4 to 1/2 mile slightly DOWN hill.
Easy course: just one hill.  The hill record for runners is just over
59 minutes.  The bike record is (I think) less than a minute faster.
For world class runners, the time and effort is comperable to running
a half marathon.

There are only a couple of other road/trail races for runners which
are arguablly comperable or harder.  Ultras like the western states
100...  The Pike's Peak Marathon (1st half up 2nd half down)...
Mt. Equinox (steeper, shorter, paved?) ...  Mt. Wilson (less steep,
higher, paved?)...  and some others.

Are there bike races on some of these other courses?

    
    RE: .24
    
    	No need for hybrid tires.  I thought about it the first year while
    ascending but dismissed the idea.  Each of the three years I have done
    the race I have used 700x25 tires.  I lost traction a couple of times
    in the sleet last year but if I let a little air out would have had no
    problem.
    
    
    							Norm
    
      

    I'll be doing a practice ride in preparation for Mt Washington;
    the more the merrier ...
    
    We'll do repeats up the Pack Monadnock (southern NH) access road,
    which is a grade very similar to Washington (but much shorter).
    Very important to have both brakes in tip-top shape as we'll also
    be riding down...
    
    This is an excellent opportunity to test your gears as well as
    your fitness on a very steep climb.
    
    I'll be meeting in the commuter parking lot at 9:00am in Hudson,MA.
    To get to this lot, take 495 to Exit#26 (Rt 62 Hudson/Berlin) ; the 
    lot is within 100 yards of the off ramp on 62.  IF you would like to
    meet us at the mountain - I don't have directions - but we will be
    there around 10:30am.
    
    Regards,
    Mark

>    If this climb were in the Tour what category would be assigned to it?

hors hors categoire

>                    -< It's harder than Alpe de Huez(sp??) >-

in my opinion mt wash is *much* harder than Alpe d'Huez.  (not trying to be
provocative - just my sincere opinion.) for me mt wash is a "freak" climb. that
is, the grades are so steep that you need to put on  low, torquey gears and with
these come some problems that one normally doesn't encounter. first, i always
had trouble spinning out whenever i'd stand on the pedals. not little spinouts
but the kind where your entire pedal stroke is lost. sort of like doing the
diagonal stride in X-C skiing without any wax.  second, when you're sitting down
you're pulling little wheelies with every pedal stroke. it becomes a major
effort to hold your front wheel down. 

mt washington pavement - mt wash is neither dirt nor paved. it's both.  for
short stretches all the way up the mountain it goes back and forth between
pavement and dirt. i've never seen this anywhere else and have never been able
to see any rhyme or reason to the pattern of pavement and dirt. does anyone have
an idea why it's like this? anyway, the last time i did it the pavement was in
very good shape. the dirt sections were very hard packed but were strewn with ~1
inch diameter rocks that are constantly deflecting your wheels. they are
annoyances.

i am no expert on french mountain passes but of the ones i did, none are as hard
as mt wash. i guess the last kilometer of col du galibier from the lauteret side
(just after you pass the buildings) is about that difficulty. just extend that
to 8 miles and you have mt washington.

>Which leads to the question is there any advantage to using hibrid
>tires or other non-road bike configurations?

the time i did a 1:10 i put on a cyclo cross rear tire (not a knobby, just a
coarse tire) and that helped with the spinout factor a bit i think. i also put
on a short stem (hoping it would throw my weight back while standing) and
stuffed my seat forward hoping that it would help move my weight forward while
sitting. i think it was a 42x32 low gear i used. i wasn't proud.

>Larry (who may have one the last people to ride up before they
>closed it to cyclists)

it's too bad that they don't let bikes up any more. they also don't let bikes up
vermont's highest mountain, mt mansfield. nor do they let bikes up equinox.

>Mt. Equinox (steeper, shorter, paved?) ...  Mt. Wilson (less steep,
>higher, paved?)...  and some others.

Equinox is steeper? do you know avg % gradient?

where's Mt. Wilson?

>    I'll be doing a practice ride in preparation for Mt Washington;
>    the more the merrier ...

i bet mt ascutney would be an excellent prep course for mt wash as the grades
are identical. (mt ascutney is only 3.8 miles.) like a previous note said it
takes a couple of times to get your equipment selection down. they used to let
you ride up mt washington but don't anymore.

when i used to do this ride they followed the barbaric practice of re-opening
the road to auto traffic only 1/2 hour or so after the last riders started up
the mountain rather than waiting for the race to finish. do they still do this?

the first time i did it i took 1:45 and the last 3 miles or so were hell due to
the car traffic. there were cars coming up and down on that narrow road and high
winds to boot. at one point i was caught with an ascending car passing me on the
right and one descending towards me. not a fun position to be in. heaven forbid
if the toll road should lose an extra hours worth of tourist revenue.

karol

    I've been told that the non-paved part of Mt. Washington are that way
    because all previous efforts at paving those sections resulted in the
    pavement's washing out, so they just grade it as needed and leave it
    that way.
    
    ed

I just got the consolation broshure from Mt Equinox when I didn't make
the lottery into the (running) road race this year & steeper is what
it said (dunno if they meant average or maximum...)

Mt Wilson is in California.  There's a big telescope on the top so the
road is paved, I think.

Other than ultra distance the most insane (running) road race that I've
heard of is the Pike's Peak Marathon.  First half up, second half down;
mostly trails including crossing large skree fields with the cairins
being the sole trail markers.

     Karol, I believe they now allow a full hour for the cyclists
    before opening the road up again.
    
     The point on the grade is well taken (in relationship to some
    attention to bike handling considerations). You can easily pull
    the front wheel up with little effort (unintentionally - there's
    no prize for wheelie-ing it). And it's easy to "lose" the rear
    wheel. The dirt sections are always damp. So you need to be
    properly positioned over the bike almost always.
    
     Chip

    Well since someone mentioned Pikes Peak...the 'Pikes Peak Race to the
    Summit' was held on the toll road this past Saturday.  8 miles, with
    about 3150 ft of elevation gain. Starting elevation around 10,900 (can
    you say no oxygen?)  The road is hard packed dirt, most people used 
    Mtn Bikes, some road bikes with cross tires and triple chainrings.  
    I used high pressure cross tires on my Mtn bike.
    
    I didn't have any problems with traction or wheelies with this setup,
    the road is steep but not near as steep as other trails we routinely
    climb on the Mtn bikes.  Altitude is a major factor, as you get higher,
    the legs just don't seem to have the power they used to ;-(
    
    The winner this year and last was a runner known for his wins in the
    Pikes Peak ascent (run up the trail 13 miles for over 7500 ft
    elevation gain!)  He typically camps on the peak at 10k ft or so
    for several weeks before these races and runs/rides to the top daily, 
    talk about training!  His bike time this year was right at 1 hr even, 
    I was able to keep my suffering time down to 1hr 14min.
                         
    The race is run at 6:30am and is over by 9am when the road is opened
    to cars so the tollmeisters can collect from the tourists.  We
    typically take a side trail off the road after the race (Elk Park) 
    for a long, challenging downhill trail ride back to Colorado springs.
    
    There is a little more information on this ride in the
    TYFYS::COLORADO_BICYCLING conference. Brutal.
    	Greg 

does anyone have an extra space in there car for another rider (me)? i'll pay my
share of gas,tolls,food,lodging...

i sent in my race form and don't even know if i'll make it in under the field
limit so i might not even be going yet. i'll post a note when i'm sure either
way. hopefully thursday or friday.

>    I'll be doing a practice ride in preparation for Mt Washington;
>    the more the merrier ...

mark, did you ever do this? how did you do? i went up after work yesterday and
did it three times. my avocet 50 indicated it's 1.3 miles (starting as the road
enters the woods - not as you pull off the highway) and has an 800 ft elevation
change which means an avg % gradient of ~11.7. do these figures sound right? my
cumulative time for the three runs (3.9 miles) was 35:21. avg speed - a
scorching 6.5 MPH.  ;^)  not exactly burning up the pavement. i used a 39 X 30.

    re:.35
    
    Yes we did the training up Pack Monadnock; I had distance also at 1.3
    and advertised grade is 12% (same as Washington).  I used 39x30 also.
    
    Pack seems to have more steep sections and flatter sections than
    Washington, though grades overall are similar.  I would recommend
    gearing whatever you used for Pack (39x30) or perhaps 39x32 since
    Washington is that much longer (just under 8 mi). 
    
    Wasn't going down Pack fun ???  NOT!  How white were the knuckles?!
    Mark

>    Pack seems to have more steep sections and flatter sections than
>    Washington, though grades overall are similar.

yeah i noticed that too. washington seems to be more of a steady grade where
pack goes from really steep to flat to really steep... when i was going up the
wall at the end i was wondering how i ever made it up there earlier this year in
a 39x24. 

oddly enough, the pavement on pack seems worse than the paved sections on
washington. seems like there are alot more frost heaves, mogul bumps and
potholes.

>I would recommend
>    gearing whatever you used for Pack (39x30) or perhaps 39x32 since
>    Washington is that much longer (just under 8 mi).

just went to the shop yesterday and had them replace the 2nd and 3rd to last
cogs on the pie plate freewheel with lower gears. the last 3 cogs before were
20-24-30. now they're 23-27-30. i'm hoping for a little choice of gears here
rather than just sitting in the 30 all the time.
    
>    Wasn't going down Pack fun ???  NOT!  How white were the knuckles?!

this is funny. you've never seen anyone go downhill slower than me. i'm the
biggest chicken s*** you ever saw! i take longer getting down pack than i do to
go up it i think. there's one steep section about half way down that's full of
bad mogul bumps. i go through there around walking speed. you'd all laugh at me
i'm sure.

i just called mt washington to find out if i made it in under the field limit
and i didn't. damn. i was really starting to get psyched. that'll learn me.

oh well, i guess now i have a reason to ride my bike next year. :^)

good luck to all you others who were smart enough to send in your applications
early!

     I'll enter the first "personal" account of the Mt. Wash "freak"
    climb...
    
     I was extremely happy with my effort. I took off 13 minutes from last
    year! Averaged 5.5mph and posted an official time of 1:22:48... I had
    1:22:41 on my Cateye, but hey, I dropped 13 minutes so what does 7 sec.
    matter...
    
     I placed 107th over all (I think they posted 371? times with about a
    6-7 disqualifications for helmet violations). I raced in the Men's Vet
    category and placed 31st out of 116 entries.
    
     It was a perfect day! Absolutely perfect! It was between 75-80 degrees
    at the base and 45 degrees at the summit. Cloudless skies and less than
    a 20mph wind at the summit. I felt great too... It's the kind of ride
    you have to feel great to do well. If you're off even just a little,
    forget it!
    
     I ran my Merlin with a 39-30 low gear. One water bottle and repair
    pack. (under the seat).
    
     Next year I am defintely going to invest in a triple crank that gets
    down to at least 34. 
    
     Chip

chip, congrats! nice to hear the weather was so nice. i was really grouchy all
day thinking about having missed the race. :^(

how did everyone else do?

what were the winning times? was andrew dagarmo there again?

Holy cow, good job Chip!

My turn for a report:

Oh my god. That was bad. Gee, I wish I knew a few days ago what I know now
(about the climb). This was my first time up the auto road, and so I didn't
really know what to expect. I finished (eventually :-) in 1:47, in the senior
category.

I used a 38 tooth chainring and a 32 tooth cog for most of the route. I wish I
had something a notch or two lower, though! For the first mile and a half, I
stayed in a 28 tooth cog. I wanted to stay out of my lowest gear for a while,
to bolster my spirits. I may have done that, but I probably also unnecessarily
stressed myself. My the two mile mark, I was really suffering. I was almost
desperately hoping for the occasional slight reductions in grade where I could
grab a drink and not be at my limit. Finally at 2.5 miles I had to get off the
bike for a few minutes. I had spent the last ten minutes or so out of the
saddle, suffering like never befone. I found one of the flatter spots and just
came to a dead stop. By the end of the ride, I was to stop three more times,
for a total of maybe 15 minutes. Made me feel wimpy, but hell I was alive.

When I started again I felt OK. But after another mile and a half or two miles
of more of the steepest climbing I've ever done, I had to stop for a second
time. Got my breath, then pushed off again. I don't remember much about my
third break.

By this time (maybe mile five or so) I was getting better at seated climbing
while pedalling at 50 or 60 RPM (guess) at 4 MPH. I hung on comfortably
(relatively speaking, of course) until a sharp turn above tree-line at around
the six or so mile mark. Made the turn and wham, a brutally steep section. When
I looked up (up!) and saw it, I almost reflexively popped my left foot out of
the pedal and halted. What to do. Well, I walked it, that's what. Even walking
it was very tiring. I knew that if I pedalled up it, I would be totally dead at
the top. As it turned out, there was a long (couple hundred yards?) section
at the top of the flattest part of the entire ride, so that would have worked
out pretty well. As it was, it was heaven! I could go 7 or 8 MPH without
effort! Unbelievable.

That gave me a second wind or something, because I rode the last mile or so
feeling fine, almost great. The finish was fantastic. There were people all
over the place, maybe 100 or 200. And they were all shouting and clapping.
The finishing 22% pitch looked fearsome but I had recovered, and so I sprinted
up, around the bends, and over the line. Yippee!! (I have little idea what my
"sprinting" speed was, maybe 7 or 8 MPH, but you get the idea.)

When and if I do this again, I'll try to rig up a granny ring. It was funny
seeing lots of bikes with JUST a granny ring.
						-- Tom

    
    Time for my reply I guess...
    
    I had a good day.  I finished in 1:08:40.  Good enough for 20th overall
    and 13th in my group.  I went up in the second group, and really should
    have gone up in the first group.  Didn't really have anyone to ride 
    with in that group.
    
    I used a 39x28 most of the time and went to a 39x26 on the less steep
    stuff.  Actually I think I "sprinted" the last section in the 26 cause
    when I looked at the bike later in the day that's what gear it was in.
    I have *little* memory of that part of the ride...
    
    The day started off pretty bad as I had bad stomach cramps just before the
    start.  They subsided as the climb started.  This was my first time
    riding this course and boy is it tough!!!  There were a couple of times
    I just couldn't believe how steep it was, and how long ahead of me that
    grade seem to go on for.
    
    The weather was perfect.  It just doesn't get any better than that.
    I can't believe that someone didn't break the record yesterday.  I
    heard that the guy that won has won it 3 out of the last 5 years.
    I think his time was 1:02:xx
    
    What a day!
    
    Stew

     Great ride Stew! What a monster...
    
     Tom, for a first you did great. The first ride (even 2nd & 3rd) is
     a learning experience. Absolutely anything can happen to you on
    that ride, e.g. cramps, stitches, wheelies (unintentional), lighting
    up the rear wheel, etc...
    
     Here's (to the best of my recollection) how some of the other DEC gang
    members did:
    
     Jeff Roberts did a 1:22:?? (He beat me - We came in 30 & 31 - Vets)
    
     Phil Johnson did a 1:16:?? 
    
     Mark Reid geta an "all heart" first place for riding while he was
    sick!
    
     Tom, I know what you mean about the last mile - That (what appears to
    be semi-flat) flat spot is like almost like having s*x... It feels
    soooo good!
    
     I'll sign up for the elite group next year. The regular group I start
    with get pretty squirrely and I was in the back of the pack at the
    start and lost some time just waiting for breaks in the pack to get by
    folks...
    
     All in all, it was the most fun I've had (with my cloths on) all
    year... Very satisfying and rewarding.
    
     Chip

    
    First time riding that "Just one Hill" in northern N.H and it was just
    awsome. I had a goal of finishing in under 1:30, but didn't really know
    what to expect. I went up with the second group, and was amazed at how
    quickly and constant the climb was. 
    
    During miles 1-4 I was at 44 minutes running a 39/32 at about a 55
    cadence. I thought that was great but was also very worried that if my
    time was 11 minutes a mile then what was up ahead was going to be a
    killer.
    
    My thought process was right and the toughest two miles of my life were
    miles 4-6, relentless climbing with my cadence dropping into the high
    40's.
    
    The last mile and a half were fairly easy and I probably should have
    shifted a couple of gears. Finishing time 1:25:59, 138th place overall
    an 77th in my group.
    
    Can't wait till next year.
    
    Dan

>>    The last mile and a half were fairly easy and I probably should have
>>    shifted a couple of gears. Finishing time 1:25:59, 138th place overall
>>    an 77th in my group.

you were 77th in your group? did they start you all of at the same time? how big
was the pack? that sounds like a  big starting pack for a race like this. no
wonder chip had problems sifting his way through the pack.

    I don't imagine drafting is much of a factor(?): 0
    
    
    r�

Hey Chip, do you think if I can talk my wife into letting me go out and buy a
Merlin I'll be able to shave 13 minutes off my time?  Or do you think I need
to get a complete titanium job (stem, nuts, bolts, etc.) for those kind of
results? -:}

Great job yesterday.  Hope to see you there next year.  The half-life of my
recollection of the pain and suffering of that climb is about a day, as I'm
already thinking about next year!

Phil

     Thanks Phil... I wouldn't worry about a Ti bike with the "motor"
    you currently have. Posting a 1:16 is something I'm only dreaming
    about right now...
    
     I do highly recommend the Merlin, however, and for a slight fee I do
    recommendation letters and spousal counselling :-)
    
     I just remembered... I think I won't be able to make it next year.
    I am bumming big time! I think I'll have a wedding to attend. And
    yes, I've already tried negotiating (just in case) and was threatened
    with severe bodily harm (they threatened my bike too - the
    Philistines!)
    
     Chip

    
>>    with severe bodily harm (they threatened my bike too - the
>>    Philistines!)
    
    The depths some folk sink too...  Wars have been started by less than
    that!  :*)
    
    Graham.

    Was Norm Flye there?
    
    ed

     Yup Ed, he was... He came in with a 1:16. I went up with him. I think
    he placed either 43rd or 48th in the Sr Men's division.
    
     He lamented on the fact that he really didn't get much riding in due
    to trying to get the bicycling and clothing business' of the ground.
    
     He also went faster than he thought he was going to...
    
         Chip

    
    As a gratuitous tangent, let me announce that the mail brought Norm's
    first catalogue a couple weeks ago!  Definitely not cheap-o goods -
    nice looking.
    
    -john

    >                       -< Flye's off the ground >-
    
    
    ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGp

re: .48

Chip, since you won't be using that bad boy Merlin next Mt. Washington maybe I
could put it to good use!!!  :-}

Phil

	Hi,

	I've been reading others accounts of the race and thought I'd enter
	my own:

	It was my first time up Mt Washington, but I thought was pretty well
	prepared. I had put a triple crank with a low of 24X28 and had done 
	several days of training up Pack Monadnock auto road. I was feeling
	confident that I could do a respectable time. But, as someone mentioned
	earlier, ANYTHING can happen.

	At about the three mile mark, I dropped my chain and fell over. 
	Disgusted, I put it back on and went on. This happend again less than
	a half mile later and I wasn't even shifting when it happened! After,
	putting it on again I rode another half mile and this time the chain 
	broke. I was pi**ed! I took off my shoes, wrapped the chain around the
	seatpost and began trotting up the hill. I was determined to get a 
	finishing time despite my mechanical problems.

	Not a good day for me, I wound up with 1:58. I *WILL* be back to try
	again next year!

	Bill

    
     I was wondering who the guy was with a broken chain. I think there
    was another guy though. He went about 100yds up and snapped a chain 
    (he was in the elite group).
    
     So, Phil... You want to borrow the Merlin eh??? Well, maybe. Before
    I commit to anything I want to make sure I won't need it.
    
     How about a little post-freak-climb, upfront and personal general
    body condition information?
    
     I did take Monday off the bike even though I only had 7.6 mile for
    the week :-)
    
     My hamstring and calves started to ache a little Monday and ached
    yesterday. Also, my triceps and deltoids were a little sore too.
    
     I went out and did a 32 miler yesterday and didn't feel too bad
    although I had absolutely no snap in the legs for charging up hills.
    Admittedly, the hills did look smaller than they did before Mt. Wash.
    
     I still managed a 20.5 mph avg without really killing myself and then
    went for about a 4 mile walk with my SO. I did fall asleep mighty fast.
    I was tired and still am a little... I'll go out tonight for a 40 miler
    or so and try some hard climbs.
    
     Personally, I think it takes me about 3-4 days to get back to normal
    (or maybe abnormal) after a drain like that. 
    
     I am truely amazed that I still love my machine and the sport after a
    painful experience like that, but as Phil said, the intensity and
    detail of the memory fade quickly, thank God!
    
     I would liken the ride to power lifting (compared to gymnastics -
    maybe). I believe that "heart" plays almost an equal role as strength.
    It can be a very demoralizing and almost disgusting experience if your
    head isn't there. 
    
     My $.02
    
    P.S. Did anyone notice the Ben Gay wafting in the air during the climb?

Ok, here's more after-the-event status: Monday I felt pretty fatigued. I rode
to work (12 miles); normally, when going at a quite comfortable pace and riding
on the handlebar tops for much of the way, I average about 18 MPH on my rolling
commute route. Yesterday, after feeling like I was doing maybe a 19 MPH pace, I
ended up averaging only 16.8 MPH! That was a surprise. Going home in the
evening I felt OK and was closer to normal.

Tuesday (yesterday) I go on a group Granite State Wheelmen ride. Last night's
edition was about 22 miles with one not steep but longish hill (Mt Vernon area
in southern NH). I wasn't sure what to expect of my condition on the ride. I
was laboring much more than normal on the hill (with Pete V. graciously waiting
for me), which felt strange. On the last part of the ride I had recovered OK,
and put in a few OK pulls for our four-some.

So I was very drained after Mt. Washington, but am coming back OK.
						-- Tom

    Although I cannot conceive of what a hill such as this one would be
    like to climb (AND NEVER INTEND TO FIND OUT) I have a technique/riding
    question.  Back a few notes was this:
    
>    During miles 1-4 I was at 44 minutes running a 39/32 at about a 55
>    cadence. I thought that was great but was also very worried that if my
>    time was 11 minutes a mile 
    
>    My thought process was right and the toughest two miles of my life were
>    miles 4-6, relentless climbing with my cadence dropping into the high
>    40's.
    
    In this notesfile there has been past discussion of spinning and I've
    gotten used to spinning at least 90 rpm, usually 100-105 once warmed
    up.  Now if I spin much below 80 it seems like a great load on legs and
    knees.
    
    Is there a difference in doing riding such as this climb that makes it
    advantageous to spin very slowly (55 down to high 40's rpm) rather than
    the "normal" spin from 85-100 or so?  What would be the effect of
    spinning say a 28/32 which would be at the same 5.5 mph at around 76
    rpm (by my calculations which may be totally incorrect)?  

    
    I didn't do this climb, but I have a possible answer to the question.
    
    When doing  a long, steep, climb it is advantageous to shift positions
    when possible so that you can give some muscle groups a rest.  For
    example, you alternate sitting or standing.  I imagine you can always
    shift when changing positions.
    
    I can't personally keep up a cadence of 100rpm while standing.  Balance
    is also something to consider when you hit the pebbles, pine cones,
    etc. that slow you down to 2 mph.
    
    Another possibility is that the angle of the cage on most "road bike"
    rear derraileurs is not sufficient to handle more than a 32T load.
    Again, I didn't do this ride but from reading, I think you would need
    more than 32T to achieve 100rpm.
    
    Incidentally, the cadence rule of thumb (90+) does not work for
    everybody.  It depends on your biomechanics and the events in which
    you participate.  For example, many time trialers cadence is more 
    effective at 15 or 20 _lower_ (pulling more torque) than the 100-110 
    of a criterium.  A climber may also have his/her own "effective range".
    
    r�
    
    

    ... This summer in the Alps I was always on at least two teeth less 
    than Alan and yet we stayed together during quite long climbs
    (5000 feet).  The advantage of the higher gear (for me at least) is that
    it keeps my breathing under control.  In fact more than once I found
    that changing up when my heart-and-lungs were screaming at me
    to change down made all the difference...
    
    However these were not Mt Washington, we never climbed at more that 12
    or 13%.  I know from experience that when the slope goes above about
    11% I just need to go into at least two gears lower than my lowest gear
    and spin...
    
    This just underlines the fact the it's a hourses for courses.

    
    	The difference between spinning and grinding is that spinning
    depends on fitness and grinding on strength. You generally find that
    better climbers can spin more and poorer climbers (not less fit
    cyclists!) have to grind a little more. This is just that the climbers
    body is beter conditioned to that type of effort whereas the generally
    chunkier rider has to rely on his strength more to get over.
    
    	I think if you can, you should try to spin more, to try and keep
    your effort even and keep your rythym going. As for getting out of the
    saddle, you are better only doing that if your gear is too big for that
    section of the climb. Try and stay in the saddle and you'll use less of
    your strengths reserves.
    
    	But again, you may be totaly different...
    
    Graham.

RE: Cadence

For me, the 50-ish RPM that I was probably doing was way too low for comfort,
but that was as fast as I could turn the pedals with the gearing I chose. I
would have much preferred lower gearing with higher cadence. As it was, I just
burned out my muscles with every stroke.

And standing up, ohh that was terrible! Of course, I could sustain a lower
cadence that way (necessary on many stretches, when my speed dropped to 3 MPH!)
but it took a terrible toll on my overall energy. Upon standing I almost
instantly felt worse than the suffering I was already feeling, since moving my
body around even a little when standing took more energy than I had to spare.

Bottom line for me would be to pick a couple of still lower gears which would
hopefully allow me to stand only rarely, and to maintain maybe a 20% or 30%
higher cadence.
						-- Tom

     I think every note is correct... While I wouldn't say there is a 
    black and white answer on the poor climber vs strong climber. I
    consider myself a poor climber, and Graham, I'm not chunky! :-)
    
     Gearing IS THE key for the individual. Tom stated that he suffered
    even more out of the saddle. I got out of the saddle for a rest!
    Except for the last 50yds, of course, which was to keep the bike
    upright while I was trying to move forward. I didn't lose any mph's
    while I was out. I had a gear that let my body's weight drive the
    pedal with no extra effort. This had a lot to do with the cadence I was
    at as well. I was grinding. My guess is maybe around 45-50. 
    
     The technique and technical aspects of the effort is highly an
    individualized thing. It really takes rides - rides - rides to learn
    enough on what you (personally) need to do to maximize your effort.
    
     Chip_who_felt_a_ton_better_last_night_but_still_hurts_on_the_hills  

	Just FYI, latest Velonews listed Mt. Washington as a Category 1
	climb. 

     They're bagging!
    
        :-)

    This sounds a bit tougher than the Alp.  The alpe is tough, real tough,
    but not impossible.  What really kills is the first 3 hairpins which
    run at about a solid 10-12%, after that is eases up (honest).  Plus the
    sun makes it pretty touigh unless you are used to climbing in 30+�C.
    
    Mt Washington must be shorter (distance) but steeper.  Karol - you've
    done them both what d'ya think ?

    Well, I did survive the climb ... but it wasn't pretty!  Jeff Roberts
    talked me into doing the race despite my severe cold.  Besides not
    being able to push myself 100% physically, I just couldn't get myself
    to crank up the intensity to redline.  I did a lot of the climb
    relatively painlessly in a 24x22.  I signed up in the "elite" group
    as i had hoped to break 1:22, but this was before I became ill! I think
    i must have been one of the last finishers of the elite group in 1:33!
    
    Stew & the senior group started 4 minutes after me.  Stew came
    CRANKING by me after only 17 minutes!  He was leading the whole group!
    I imagine all 12 sr men who finished in front of him were from the
    elite group.
    
    After about an hour out there, I heard a famliar "Honeyyyy, I'm
    Hommeeeee" from Jeff Roberts who had started 8 minutes after me.
    I think catching me gave him a lift, and I cheered him on.  Seconds
    later Chip came motoring by.  I thought to myself "what next -
    women & chldren passing me?". Yes, of course a couple women went by
    very politely.
    
    Another DECie who did VERY WELL was Martha Phinney who placed
    SECOND !!!!! in her (vet women) age group with a 1:37.
    Martha works in MKO (merrimack,NH).
    
    This race is a great experience; everyone is happy and friendly
    (especially after finishing!).
    
    I look forward to next year!
    Mark
    
    PS - this race absolutely made my cold much worse; I was a mess the
    following day and was out sick (rare for me).  Feeling much better
    now!

    re .back a few:
    
    Thanks for the physiology info.  Once in a while I'll come out of the
    saddle for a SHORT sharp climb that I'd rather not downshift for, but
    anything that looks even a bit longer I just keep downshifting until I
    can maintain a "comfortable" cadence.  Of course, this is on little
    Minnesota hills, not anything like the monster y'all are doing.  For
    that I'd just stand at the bottom and cheer and wave you folks on!

>    Mt Washington must be shorter (distance) but steeper.  Karol - you've
>    done them both what d'ya think ?

hi rod. glad someone asked cuz i was gonna offer my 2 cents anyway. :o)

i think i said it earlier on that, IMO, mt washington is *by far* the hardest
climb i've done. to me the steepnes of a climb is more punishing than the
length. and when you talk about mt washington with a length of 8 miles you're
not talking a short sprinters hill. for the euro crew take the last 1-2 kms. of
the galibier from the lauteret side (after you pass the first building near the
summit it gets steeper, no?) and extend that out to 8 miles. now throw in a
generous portion of unpaved stretches strewn with momentum robbing stones and
gusting winds and you have mt washington.

a stretch of 12% is alot different than 8 miles of it. also, mt washington
provides no flat switchbacks (a la l'alpe d'huez) on which to catch your breath.
there is a "flat" spot mentioned earlier at around 5 or 6%. on some climbs
that's the steep part. after climbing for 5 miles at 12% it feels flat.

there is no doubt in my mind that mt washington is an hors categoire climb and a
hard one to boot.

re (chip's ben gay comment): the smell i associate with mt washington is burning
brakes. i can never smell that smell without thinking of the mt washington toll
road!

reading your stories makes me real envious. next year i'm not going to wait to
send in my application! i wonder what the odds are at having good weather two
years in a row.

karol