Conference noted::bicycle

    An alternative is the Sedis ATB chain.  Inexpensive, hyperglide-
    compatible, and you only need a standard chain rivet tool.
    
    The chain is silver, with one black link so you can always pop
    the rivet in the same place.
    
    Justin

    I've removed and cleaned my hyperglide chain 4-5 times using a standard
    chain rivet tool, re-using the same rivet without any problems.  I too
    have read many notes warning on not to do this, but usually ignored
    them.
    
    I'm just careful to line up the chain and I NEVER fully remove the
    rivet from the link.  If it was removed I could see that it may be
    very difficult to re-insert it.  If I understand correctly the
    replacement rivets have a snap off tapered end to aid insertion.
    
    
    ...Ed

Just to explain a bit more, Hyperglide chains have a special black,
hardened rivet, and this is supposed to be the one you should use to
break the chain. Moreover, you should replace the rivet with a new one
when you rebuild the chain and Shimano sell replacement rivets for this
purpose.

But you seem to be getting by fine without doing all those things.


Rod

    Rod,
    
    I thought the instructions said to never reuse that link.  But what do
    I know thay tried to write it in English and I read American.  :-)
    
    ed

    Is this the thin edge of the `unmaintainable bike' wedge ?

Re .4:  Umm, isn't that what I said?...

Re .5:  I think it is. Why do Shimano make such and a song and dance about
a stupid chain? Puts me off using it, anyway. Sedis silver costs the same
or less than an HG70,works fine on 7-speed Hyperglide, and doesn't mess you
about with special links.


Rod

    yup, blush.
    
    ed

    	A friend and I were riding to Maine this past summer when
    	he started having some real problems with the drivetrain
    	on his bicycle. We stopped at a shop and determined that the
    	chain was the culprit. He told me he had spent a lot of
    	money for the (HG) chain and that it had not lasted as long
    	as one of the cheaper chains he normally buys.
    
    	He had bought the chain because he thought it would do a
    	better job even though he didn't have a HG drivetrain.
    
    	Scott

    
    The general consensus among the racing crowd is the Hyperglide is
    garbage.  Most think the HG, at best, will last as long as the Sedis
    ATB.  Usually it does not.  
      What is hated the most is dealing with those stupid spare pins.
    Don't ever leave home without them.  The chain is very susceptable
    to coming apart in the same place if the old pin is used again.
    I don't know why this is true but I have seen it happen on more than
    one occasion.
      My thought is why pay more for a chain that is not as good.  
    
    						Norm
    
    

re .6,.8 and .9
	The Black Sedis is even cheaper, I just swapped a silver for one on the
same block and it's fine. I know it's not so good for posing but after 2 weeks
it's covered in oil, dust, ros�, Camembert and anti-bonk bar crumbs anyway.

BTW it's an Aris 7 with Shimano 600 changer.....

    It takes you 2 weeks?
    
    Hmph, must be too much ros� and camembert.
    
    ed

    	Norm,
    
    	On a short climb, we found that the pin had worked itself
    	out far enough to allow the chain to twist a little bit.
    	So the chain jumped off the drivetrain. Then, on a level
    	stretch, the pin would occasionally catch the cage on the
    	rear derailleur, of course, making it impossible to pedal.
    
    	Scott

	Is a Sedis ATB for road bikes?  I associate the "ATB" with 
	mountain bikes.  I have a Shimano 105 equipped bike w/HG, so
	I could get a Sedis ATB chain?  Do most bike shops carry them?

	Thanks,
	Sue

    Sedis ATB may originally have been designed for off-road, but it works
    fine with road bikes (the one I'm using works fine), with or without 
    Hyperglide.  Sedisport is not supposed to be Hyperglide-compatible.
    
    If you want your cogs to last forever, buy a new chain every 1,000 to
    1,500 miles.
    
    Justin

There are also a series of three narrow Sedis chains for road bikes: black,
silver and gold in increasing order of cost. I'm using a silver one with
a 7-speed Hyperglide system and shifting has been absolutely excellent and
reliable. 


Rod 

	Rod, do the three narrow Sedis chains have a special model name?
	I just called one of my local shops (Goodales) and the guy said
	they have Sedis ATB for ~ $16.  I was thinking about picking one
	up tonight, but now I'm interested in the one you're using.  Is
	it cheapter than the ATB?

	Thanks again,
	Sue

    If you don't need the chain right away, if I recall correctly the
    latest Nashbar catalog has the Sedis ATB chain for $9.
    
    I have a question...  My wifes hybrid has a Mountain LX triple
    chainring with a Deore XT derailleur, and Deore DX shifters.  Rear is a
    Deore DX derailleur on a 7-speed freewheel.  I put on an HG70 chain
    when I replaced the freewheel and installed the DX shifters.  The rear
    doesn't shift TOO badly although I have been unable to get an
    adjustment that allows really smooth shifts both directions.  On at
    least one gear (depending on adjustment) I usually have some noise
    because the chain isn't quite centered.  It doesn't slam into each gear
    going both directions like I'd expect.
    
    On the front things are poor at best.  Downshifts are pretty good, but
    shifting to a larger chainring usually requires overshifting and is
    accompanied by considerable noise...  
    
    I'm thinking about getting one of the Sedis ATB chains and trying
    that...  anyone want an HG70 chain with about 15 miles on it?

Re .16:  My scant knowledge of the Sedis range of chains came from reading
the box my Sedis silver chain came in. I seem to remember there were the
three I mentioned, a new narrower one for 8-speed systems, and one or two
ATB chains. The one I'm using might be called a Sedisport so you could try 
asking for that. The ATB one would work fine in any case, I'm sure. But
the basic Sedis black chain (which should be a lot cheaper than $16) is
about the best value-for-money chain going, as many other notes in this
conference testify.


Rod

    Sedisport chains can be found for under 10 but bike shops will charge
    around $15.
    
    I remember scoring a bunch at 2/$7 !!  You know, bakc before step in
    pedals and click shifting, almost a decade ago.
    
    ed

    
    Sue (et al.), 
    
    Yes, to confirm the foregoing, the Sedisport black is the
    best value, and the higher-priced colors offer no difference in
    functionality.  And I just got a couple from Nashbar for something
    around $9 (maybe less).  
    
    My friend Patricia had the same experience Scott described with a
    Hyperglide chain (original equipment).  A highly experienced biker
    out in California had cleaned, waxed and reinstalled the chain on
    her bike.  A few weeks later in France (relevant especially because
    she was (1) doing long miles and (2) putting quite a stress on the
    chain climbing in the Alps), she noticed the clicking and catching
    that Scott describes.  Mr. Na�vit� here (myself) didn't think anything
    of it - just put on some more oil, but when we got back to the States,
    a bike-shop person noticed the pin, and replaced the chain with a
    black (non-ATB) Sedisport.  Since then, if anything, the bike operates
    more smoothly than it ever did with the Hyperglide chain, and certainly 
    with more piece of mind.  If that pin had worked itself out a little 
    further, it could have meant some real injury.
    
    So, yes, the Sedisport regular seems to work fine on 7sp Hyperglide
    (Shimano 105) systems.
    
    -john

    these are my learned conclutions on the most popular chains on the
    market.
    
    HYPER GLIDE -  has been around for a long time it's supose to catch 
                   the gear tooth quicker during a shift cause of the 
                   spreaded sides on the outer links. The pin problem
                   mainly by the chain tool if you realy look closely  
                   on what happens during pin pressing you can notice
                   that the outer link ( grooved outward ) causes that
                   side to lay angled up against the tool prongs . This
                   may cause the pin to go in on an angle , it then tends 
                   to spread (bending) the top part of that link . thats
                   where I think the big problem comes from . 
    
    SEDIS BLACK    Is very inexpensive and is mostly good , sometimes you
                   find a bad set . their problem is tight links , this is 
                   almost imposible to find in most cases . I broke a sedis
                   (road) chain on a ultra steep climb one time standing up
                   and it hurt so bad I also rolled back before falling
                   down.
    
    TIPS:
        1. CHAIN SKIPS UNDER LOAD - can be caused by a tight link or spread
                                    ed ready to break , check if it occurs 
                                    at the same spot by counting your pedal
                                    strokes for repeat skips after so many
                                    turns . This may help you isolate the
                                    bad spot. 
        2.STRECHED CHAIN ?   -      put the chain on the large chainring 
                                    and pull the chain out of the gears
                                    toward the 3 to 5 o clock posistions
                                    on the chainring if it does not fit
                                    back in the grooves ( MATCH THE TEETH's
                                    pitch ) it means that its streched.
        
        3.cog causes chain to skip- when you install a new chain and you
                                    its done right but it skips on a gear 
                                    or two ussualy the middle , insppect
                                    the loaded side of the gears ( left
                                    side looking at the cog ). if you see
                                    burrs forming on the edges , then you
                                    will need to file or flip over or
                                    replace that gear.
    
        4.PREVENTION -              clean you chain frequently , use only
                                    good lubricants such as triflow , oil
                                    or wd40 are not acceptable for the job.
                                    when you can hear the chain make sounds
                                    as you pedal , lubricate.
    
    The uncentered noise on the shimano index is normal if its too loud put
    the shifter to friction then fine tune the changer , this will tell yo 
    the best positioning capbility of your components. Some times the
    changer hanger ( dropouts ) could be bent enough to cause the deraleur
    to be angled . Theres a Shimani re allignment tool to correct this .
    Check with a bike store . 
    
    HEADS UP AND CRANK THOSE MILES
    
    Thanks
    Ed S.

    Re last and tight links:-
    
    There is an easy way to check for tight links, but the chain must be
    off the bike: 
    Simply hold the 2 ends of the chain between finger and thumb of each 
    hand. Now bring the 2 ends together so that the 2 halves of the chain
    run parallel and form a tight 180� bend at the midpoint (which should
    be swinging somewhere around your knees). Now by moving either hand 
    up or down and observing the 180� bend you can easily see a link that 
    is tight - it doesn't bend the whole way.
    
    Chris 

	I was checking out the chains in the latest Nashbar last night.
	They do indeed have the Sedisport Black for $6.98. *however* it
	explicitly says "not for use with Hyperglide" !?!  Not to doubt
	the collective experience here in this conference, but who's 
	right?  Do they just put that blurb in there so people like myself
	will go with the ~ $15 Hyperglide 70 chain?  BTW they also have
	the Sedis ATB for ~10.

	Hoping to order soon....
	Sue

    Sedi markets the ATB to be Hyperglide compatible.  It is slightly
    heavier, but the hardening process is better resulting in a stronger
    chain.  The compatibility might be due to the link design, as in the
    Hyperglide chain mentioned earlier.  The black and silver version may
    work (I know the ATB does), but the links may not be `shaped' in the
    Hyperglide way - only a guess of sorts.  However, if all the previous
    folks have used them, then they undoubted do even if Sedi doesn't claim
    it in fact.  For ATB use, I definately recommend the Sedisport ATB for
    a Hyperglide setup and if the Sedi silver works for Hyperglide, I would
    use that or the ATB model instead of the Hyperglide chain on a road
    bike.  
    
    A side note.  I seem to recall most of the Tour de France bike reviews
    showed Sedi Silver on the campy setup and Dura-ace on Dura-ace.  Anyone
    used a Sedi on a Dura-ace setup?
          
    john

     Many times a stiff link will show up in the form of a "tick"
    in the rear derailleur. If you pedal (front/backward) the
    derailleur will actually "jump" as the stiff link passes
    between the wheels...
    
      Chip

    
    Sue, I noticed that advisory, too.  All I can say is that the local
    shop (a good shop) had no qualms about using a Sedis black on Hyperglide.
    That's not proof positive, but a hint.  My friend Pat has been doing
    fine with the chain since September.  (Again, not proof positive, but...)
    
    cheers,
    -john

    I think it's like this:
    
    Doubter:  "It shifts fine with a Sedisport."
    
    The Marketing Man:  "Well, it'll shift better with a Hyperglide."
    
    ed

    re: 25 -- I've only tried one Dura-Ace chain, and I've used nothing 
    but Sedis ever since, with both SIS and STI.  No problems.
    
    A Dura-Ace chain would have to last 3-4 times as long as a Sedisport
    to be worth 3-4 times the bucks.  It doesn't, so it isn't.
    
    I never used Hyperglide until I finally got an ATB bike last fall.  
    
    On the road, despite claims that you *must* use 8-spd Hyperglide with 
    the STI brake/shift levers, I was quite happy with a 7-spd Dura-Ace 
    cluster.
    
    However, I've noticed that after a fair amount of shifting under load
    with an STI, the chain tends to carve a little metal off the side of a 
    rear cog.  Since the side of an ATB is pretty much even-plane, while a 
    Sedisport has more bumps and edges, perhaps Sedisport can grind away at 
    a cog more than an ATB.
    
    Justin
    

    Okay, another question about Sedisport black chains.  I need to replace
    the chain on my mountain bike and I have a new Sedisport black sitting
    around.  Is it durable enough for off-road use?  The bike is Deore XT
    equipped and HG.

    Sue

    Sue,

    I have used only the Sedi ATB for a Hyperglide system.  With the
    hardened pins, the chain holds up better.  The black may work, but not
    shift as nicely and may not hold up if you really put some torque on
    it.  I don't know from experience, but everyone else I ride with uses
    only the ATB model.  Seems to go that one uses the Shimano when first
    purchasing the bike until it breaks or wears out (mostly breaks) and
    then uses the Sedi ATB from then on.            
    
    Perhaps it is a matter of the type of riding you do (off-"paved" road
    vs. single track with lots of mud), since that has a big effect on
    chain life.  It would be simple enough to put on and test it for the
    shifting, but if you take it out into some rough country, you may want
    to bring a few links and a chain tool along.
    
    john

    
    This weekend a friend of mine put on a Sedis black and we went out for
    a ride.  His chain broke.  It was on a rather tough section of road.
    I know that in the future he is going to only use the Sedis ATB.
    
    Stew

    Well, last night I wanted to get my mtn bike ready to ride again. I
    checked in here, but no one had yet replied.  Since I had the Sedisport
    black already, I decided to call Goodales and ask them if it would be
    all right to use on my mtn bike.  I made it clear that it was the
    "black", not the "ATB" model. They said no problem.  However, I don't
    think I made it clear that the bike really *is* used for off-road,
    singletrack riding.  That's too bad that your friend's chain broke.  I
    think I'll just go buy another chain and swap it out before I have a
    similiar experience.

    Thanks again.

    
    
    Judging from Sue's bruised and battered legs lately...best she use
    the ATB chain - 8^)

    re: -.1

    Bruised and battered legs are a terrific justification for SPDs ... or
    perhaps this should be in the `expensive hobby' note. :-)
    
    

    SPD?  That's nothing like an STD, is it? %^)

    Steve: glad to see you back here!

    Shimano Pedaling Dynamics, I believe.  Shimano's clipless pedals for
    MTBs, and now a road version as well.  

    SPD is just another TLA (Three Letter Acronym).  I think
    Shimano is trying to tradmark all of 576 TLA's that start
    with S.  Let's see:  SPD, STI, SIS,
    
    ed, who got an SPD t-shirt for trying the shoes...
    

    
   Also called SPUDS.
    

	I have a hyperglide chain-related question.  What chain rivet tool
	do you use?  I don't think that the standard Rivoli tool is 
	supposed to be used on hyperglide chains.  I bought one of those
	fancy $22 Park Universal Chain tools from The Third Hand.  The
	first time I used it I ended up bending the pin on the tool.  I
	called 3rd Hand and they sent me a free replacement tool (in the
	mean time I had to hustle over to a friend's late at night so I
	could get my chain on for the next day's ride...). 

	The second time the tool got used, Mark succeeded in not only bending
	the tool's pin but also breaking off half of the tool's chain guide!
	I sent the tool back to 3rd Hand and asked for a refund (which they
	sent me). I told them I didn't want a replacement since I'd had such
	bad luck with the tool. I don't want to buy a $1 replacement pin
	everytime I use it!

	So is there another chain rivet tool you can recommend?

	Sue

	ps I know this is opening up that whole "Shimano's making it harder
	to do your own maintenance" can of worms.

    Sue,
    
    I have one of those el cheapo chain tools that I've had for years (long
    before Hyperglide was even thought of).  I have used it on several
    Hyperglide chains and it seems to work fine.  I did not even know that
    thre was supposed to be a special chain tool for Hyperglide chains.
    
    Mark

    I have used the el cheapo rivoli tool as well as a Park El Espensivo.
    Both have worked well.  I have also aqcquired a rivoli that is intended
    "for narrow chains" and it also solves the problem.  Come over
    and remind me and I'll bring it in...
    
    ed

    
    	The non-hyperglide rivoli will bend the side plates the hyperglide
    one will not. A side by side check will show why.
    
    	Roger

(Rather than create a new note I figured I'd add to this one.)

Anyone out there running the Taya chain that recently has been "featured" in the
Nashbar catalog?  How's it compare to the Sedis R80?  Does the Sigma Connector work as
advertised.

I'm thinking of trying chain wax & thought that it would be easier to remove/clean/&
return using the Taya chain.

Any input?

Thanks!
Ray