Conference terri::cars_uk

    An extra 3.5p a litre.  2.10 a tank full for cavalier drivers.  Will we
    see this back in its miliage allowance? - Maybe not.  27p a bottle off
    whisky maybe we will not notice.
    
    
    R. Michael.

    Any comments on company car tax increase or does it remain at 35% of
    list price.
    
    Royston

    
    re .last
    
    No mention made. No change.
    
    Richard.

Don't be silly. They'll just expect you all to drive low mpg diesals 
and drop the allpwance to 7p

Alan

I believe Alan's right.  As I mentioned in another note, we'll just get some 
feeble excuse from ver management for why they don't have to increase the 
allowance.

Chris.

    Chris,
    
    	If you assume the average car goes >35 miles per gallon, that means
    claiming 8p/mile you get �2.80p. With 4.54 litres/gallon that works out
    at 61.7p/litre. I agree the figures are getting closer to break even
    point but I wouldn't expect any immediate changes.
    
    	Norm (who doesn't have a company car)
                                             

    I agree in doubting that the company will increase the mileage
    allowances. However I will have a problem if the diesel comparison is
    used. Diesel is now generally recognised to be substantially LESS
    desirable eco wise than modern lean burn petrol engines with cat etc.
    Therefore the diesel statement would be saying short term profit is
    more important than the health and future of the planet, not quite a
    caring company stance????
    
    Cheers
    
    Derek

    Hi,
    
    I have heard rumour that the road tax has been dropped for cars over 25
    years old. Is this true and if so when does it come into force.
    
    As I plan to have my 1967 MGB back on the road for April/May 96 this 
    could be a rather nice bonus!
    
    Graham Naylor
    

Yes Graham it is true, but the enforcement date isn't posted on the web site I
used ( http://www1.ifs.org.uk/ ) 

Dave

    
    Re .6
    
    Since when has the average car done 35mpg except in manufacturers
    dreams? 'Their' current miscalculations are based on 30mpg, which
    for those who work in the London/Reading areas is just another mystic
    Meg prediction.
    
    Richard.
    

>>
>>   Since when has the average car done 35mpg except in manufacturers
>>    dreams? 'Their' current miscalculations are based on 30mpg, which
>>    for those who work in the London/Reading areas is just another mystic
>>    Meg prediction.
    
  .....well if you will sit around intraffic jams...... :-)  

anyone know if they sneaked in a price rise on Motorcycle road fund licence?   
 
 Elaine

    
    Basically "they" will continue to allow us to get screwed!!!!!
    
    watch this space for............................
    
    (dont hold your breath!!!)
    
    pat

	The exemption from excise duty of vehicles over 25 years old
	is probably the precursor to making all other vehicles liable
	to the tax whether they are on the road or not.

	So if your classic is less than 25 years old ...

	-John

    ref:10
    
    Richard,
    
    		The latest Toyota figures for their lean burn 1800 engine
    indicate that the engine is capable of 45+ Miles/gallon. Of course
    there will always be exceptions to the rule - for example gas guzlers,
    sitting in traffic jams, poor driving technique etc. The company can
    only work with averages not exceptions when deciding the rate/mile.
    
    	Norm

    re .14
    
    Norm,
    
    So how many lean burn Toyota engines does Digital lease then? and how
    many 2.0 16v injection type engines? I would say the average they
    should work on is around 30 mpg.
    
    Greg
    

RE .13

I responded to the consultation document on continuous licensing.
I got a copy via a campaign by the Vintage Motor Cycle Club.

They are trying to crack down on evasion by having all vehicles 
with a license of sorts. The permanently off the road class was
proposed to be free of charge, and another class where you 
could have 6 months on & 6 months off the road.

The costly bit was if you couldn't decide in advance how you were 
going to use your classics, and changing licenses incurred 
'administrative fees'.  e.g. if you were 5 months into a 
6 month off road license, and you wanted to go on the road, 
you would have had to get a 6 months on-road license, backdated for 
the previous 5 months.

A lot of people with old vehicles complained, and I guess the 
25 year exemption is to clear the way for continuous licensing. 

Huw.

    Greg,
    
    	If we assume that fuel (diesel or petrol) is 60p/litre since the
    budget then that works out at �2.72p/gallon. At the moment its 8p/mile
    so the break even point (in round figures) is 34 miles/gallon. 
    Now I drive 205 & 405 diesels which average 60 & 50 miles/gallon
    respectively, however if the average petrol car does <34 miles/gallon
    then there is need to increase the allowance. I agree that the standard
    DIGITAL company car is going to be a Vauxhall so perhaps someone can reply
    here on the average miles/gallon on the current popular styles. If
    Vauxhall aren't so economical as some other makes then perhaps we do
    indeed need to increase the allowance or change car manufacturer.
    
    Norm   

    >>	If we assume that fuel (diesel or petrol) is 60p/litre since the
    >>  budget then that works out at �2.72p/gallon. At the moment its 8p/mile
    
    
    where on earth are you buying your fuel ? I haven't seen fuel at more
    than 53p a litre for ages and that's at the expensive garages which i
    don't visit. Today, two days after the budget it's still 49.9p at my
    local garages.
    
    G.

    My local Shell is advertising 58.?p on its petrol & diesel. In my
    example I was quoting a worse case (motorway price) scenario.
    
    
    	Norm 

    re-2
    
    Get yourself down South....
    
    
    Mikef

    
    re .17
    
    With respect Norm, arguing about average mpg figures is irrelevant.
    You quoted a Toyota as doing 45mpg. It doesn't achieve that driving
    around London or around Reading on typical business trips during
    rush hours. 
    
    The purpose of the expense policy is to reimburse employees who have
    incurred reasonable expense whilst travelling on company business.
    I contend that a blanket 8p a mile fails to acheive this. 
    
    Richard.
    
    

    
  >>  Get yourself down South....
   
    By the sound of it, I'd be stuck ! unable to afford enuff fuel to get
    back....
    
    G 
    

    ref:22
    
    	Richard,
    
    		I agree the expenses you claim should ensure you are not
    out of pocket. If the current allowance is inadequent what would you
    like it increased to to cover your expenses?.
    
    	Norm
    
    BTW: what car do you drive?
    

    Norm,
    
    My last 3 cars have done the following mpg:
    
    Renault 5 GT Turbo (1.4 litre engine) av about 30, worst 23
    Renault 19 16v: Av about 30, worst 25 (I think)
    Vauxhall 8v Calibra: No computer on this one, but I reckon 30mpg is the
    best it gets!

    
    Perhaps "they" should introduce a sliding scale for mileage rates.
    i.e. if you have a frontera 10p per mile, calibra/cav/vec 2.0 9p
    per mile, lower engine and 8p per mile.
    
    You are after all paying extra for having a higher grade car, you 
    should not be paying out of your own pocket for company business!!
    
    pat...................

re .24

Greg, you might be surpised by the Calibra (depends on how you drive I guess)
but I used to get 35-40 mpg out of my 16v Calibra on a motorway run at
80-85mph

Clive

I typically get over 35mpg from my 8v Calibra on a clear run.  Unfortunately,
visits to customer sites are usually in `rush hour(s)', and rarely clear.  I 
don't know what the fuel consumption is when spending half the journey sat in 
traffic jams (ie recent trip to Basingstoke was 2.5 hours each way, usual 
journey duration in off peak times is 1.5 hours), but I doubt if 8p a mile 
covers it.

It's even worse if a person had to use a private car for business mileage, 
there's no way that the allowance would cover it.  Prior to joining the car 
scheme, I'd get around this by insisting that a hire car was provided for 
business mileage.

As to fuel prices, I'd guess that the average around here is 54 - 55p a 
gallon, although I haven't done any research into it!

Chris.

    Hi,
    
    Going back to my question about taxing vehicles over 25 years old, it
    would appear that this was bought into effect immediately. But the
    question that now arises is will an "old" car have to have a tax disc 
    which would be issued free and if so how long before they start charging 
    for it.
    
    Regards
    
    Graham Naylor
    
     

I believe that DVLC will issue an exemption disc, which will have to be
displayed in the same way as an ordinary tax disc. - I don't think you have to
do anything special to get it - it will just arrive some time in January. 

What constitutes a 25 year old vehicle - date of first registration? what about
a full restoration? - or a kit car with a 25 year old chassis? 

�I believe that DVLC will issue an exemption disc, which will have to be
�displayed in the same way as an ordinary tax disc. - I don't think you have to
�do anything special to get it - it will just arrive some time in January. 
        
        That doesn't seem logical to me. I suspect that you will have
        to get your disk at the Post Office annually, and present your
        MOT and Insurance certificate as usual. The only thing you
        won't need is the money.  This is currently what happens for
        invalid cars and electric vehicles.
        
        Ian.

re milage rates:

the 'average' rate quoted by manufacturers is a myth. Since when do we 
sit at a constant 75 mph, never varying speed......

No, reality means we are constantly changing speed, slowing down for 
2 lanes of lorries, getting stuck in traffic jams and road works and 
generally trying to avoid any mention of the M25.

My Renault 19 16v used to do around 34 mpg if I ran it 'gently' and 
around 31 if I 'played' with it (much more fun).

My AStra 16v used to do around 32 gently and 30 in real life.

I now have a Citreon diesel - I couldn't afford to keep subsidising 
DEC for my business miles (17,000 so far this tax year!!!)


Alan

    (Re 2474.30) As far as I can tell from the (often inaccurate) reports
    in the papers both paragraphs are true.
    
    If you are already taxed then at some time in January you get sent a
    free tax disc and a form to fill in to get your money back for the
    existing disc.
    
    Thereafter you have to present your MOT & Insurance annually to get a
    new free disc.
    
    Dick
    

    Hi,
    
    What happens if the car is undergoing a rebuild and has been off the
    road for 12 years, do you still need a disc, and if so how do you get
    one as there is no MOT and no "Road" insurance. 
    
    I Understand part of the reasons for this are for the continuous
    licencing, so in theory I would need a disc.
    
    Regards
    
    Graham Naylor

    For Vauxhall devotees....
    My Vauxhall Astra 1.7D Estate returns between 43 and 48 mpg on mixed
    urban, country and motorway driving.
    
    Tim
    

    My Omega estate 2l 16v is averaging 32.1mpg
    
    Why did we ask, I forget.
    
    Andrew

    My Peugeot 306 averages 42 mpg.
    
    Goldy.

    Boasting about good mpg figures will not help increase the mileage
    rate which in my opinion should be based on no more than 30mpg which is
    typical of the sort of heavy traffic normally associated with business
    travel.
    
    Royston

    Royston,
    
    	Shell are currently selling fuel at 58p/lit which is �2-63p/gall.
    If you assume that 30 miles/gallon is tops in normal circumstances
    (heavy traffic etc) that is equivalent to 8.7p/mile. I don't think
    digital is going to increase allowance on the strength of that
    evidence. ie we are at break-even point. However should consumables
    (oil etc) being taken into consideration then perhaps there is grounds
    in increasing the allowance.
    
    	Norm

�    	Shell are currently selling fuel at 58p/lit which is �2-63p/gall.

	I'll add that to my ever growing list of reasons for not buying Shell.

	Ian.

    
    Re .37
    
    A cost of 8.7p a mile is a very *good* reason to raise the current
    mileage rate. Why should we fund 10% of expense costs?
    
    Richard.

    Hi,
    
>    What happens if the car is undergoing a rebuild and has been off the
>    road for 12 years, do you still need a disc, and if so how do you get
>    one as there is no MOT and no "Road" insurance. 
    
>    I Understand part of the reasons for this are for the continuous
>    licencing, so in theory I would need a disc.
     
    As far as the local licencing office is concerned, the only way that
    you'll get an excise disk for a >25 year old vehicle is by producing
    valid Insurance and MOT.  They'll then issue it free of charge. 
    Therefore it figures that vehicles off the road or undergoing rebuilds
    do not need a disc (yet).  
    
    I say yet because there seems to have been a bit of scare-mongering 
    recently. Some of the classic vehicle societies picked up a snippet about
    every registered vehicle requiring a road excise disc. This would infer
    that they intended to tax vehicles undergoing restoration or in pieces
    in your back garden.  
    
    Whilst I wouldn't put anything past the present government, especially 
    when it comes to new ways of raising a bit of extra revenue, this wouldn't
    exactly be a vote winner.  You can picture the headlines now "Man 
    imprisoned for repeatedly failing to tax moped in shed........" or
    "Lord Montegue of Beulieu goes broke........."
    
    rgds
    
    Paul
      
       
    
    

RE .-1

>Some of the classic vehicle societies picked up a snippet

The 'snippet' in question was a 30 page consultation document,
published by the DOT. I know, I read it.

>they intended to tax vehicles undergoing restoration

The consultation document did propose continous licensing. 
I'm not sure what they'll eventually decide on, in the light 
of feedback from the consultations.

Huw.

    A couple of points on the mileage allowance. I seem to remember that
    the allowance does not just cover petrol, but also oil & car washes,
    and that it was based on 30mpg. I also remember petrol prices rising
    to around 2.60 a gallon back in '85 or '86 and the allowance went up
    certainly to 8.7p and possibly 9p - too long ago for full recall !!
    Then petrol went down and so did the allowance - to 8p where it has
    remained since. Now that petrol prices have risen back to these
    figures, an increase in the allowance seems justified.
    
    		Ian
    

    Oil was taken out, on the grounds that modern cars don't use oil and if
    they do one can claim it back on expenses. Car wash, less sure, but I
    don't think it is included. Part of the reduction was to
    unleaded/diesel it's all in here somewhere.
    
    Andrew

Interesting, this.  Fuel companies are often accused of raising their prices 
every time the price of crude oil increases, but not passing on the savings 
when the price drops again.  It seems that Digital do the opposite; if a 
saving is to be made on fuel costs, they'll reduce the allowance, but not 
raise it again to compensate for increased prices.

Chris.

When I arrived at DEC in 1986, petrol was �1.75 a gallon (cheapest 
for 4 star) and we got 8p per mile. Nice stuff. Then, petrol went up 
to around $2.40 and we got 9.1p/mile. Then, it went down to around 
�2/gallon plus the allowance was based on unleaded prices and we went 
back to 8p/mile.

It has been there ever since.

Alan

    Can you  claim oil on expenses ?
    
    Thanks for letting us know.
    

re.47:

Yes.

Dave.

    re .47
    
    No. Doesn't the 8p a mile cover this?
    

    This is getting to be an old chestnut.
    
    We were mailed a while back when fuel costs went up that the mileage
    rate would remain at 8p. Previously the 8p per mile allowed for oil
    and car wash expenses. It was pointed out that as modern cars use very
    little oil between services it was being taken out of the allowance.
    I guess noone cares about dirty cars.
    
    Would Dave (Kerrell) like to expand on his directive to claim for oil ?
    Its the first I've heard about it. Mind you I've never had to put a
    drop of oil in any of my company mobiles.
    
    Royston

>    We were mailed a while back when fuel costs went up that the mileage
>    rate would remain at 8p. Previously the 8p per mile allowed for oil
>    and car wash expenses. It was pointed out that as modern cars use very
>    little oil between services it was being taken out of the allowance.
>    I guess noone cares about dirty cars.

I'll put the latter to the test when I visit a customer site on thursday in a 
car that's caked in mud and diesel - if they comment, I'll just assure them 
that it's okay as modern cars don't need to be washed.  :)

>    Would Dave (Kerrell) like to expand on his directive to claim for oil ?
>    Its the first I've heard about it. Mind you I've never had to put a
>    drop of oil in any of my company mobiles.

I think it's safe to assume that if a car has used up a significant amount of 
oil before a service is due, it should be booked in to the garage to find out 
what the problem is...

Chris.

�        <<< Note 2474.49 by WOTVAX::HILTON "http://blyth.lzo.dec.com" >>>
�
�    re .47
�    
�    No. Doesn't the 8p a mile cover this?
        
        This is NOTES, not a newsgroup.  All the old replies are still
        here, just look back to .43   :-)
        
        Ian.

My renault 19 16v used to need 1L of oil between services. I paid for 
it. The book says thats normal (the consumption, not my wallet)

Alan

re.52:

Actually, it's reply .44

If your car uses oil between services then claim it as an expense.

Dave.

    �If your car uses oil between services then claim it as an expense.
    
    Dave it concerns me about the authoritative way that you're expressing
    yourself here. What is your source ?
    
    A car uses fuel between services. Some cars use more than others.
    Oil is a consumable like petrol. I don't believe oil can be claimed on
    expenses directly any more than petrol can.
    
    Royston

>    A car uses fuel between services. Some cars use more than others.
>    Oil is a consumable like petrol. I don't believe oil can be claimed on
>    expenses directly any more than petrol can.

but if Digital says they shouldn't use any oil, then they must surely be 
prepared to pay for more frequent services if the oil level keeps dropping...

Chris$antagonist.

    There's nothing I could see on VTX which refers to oil.

If your car uses oil and needs to be topped up between
services then this is driver missuse and you should be dealt
with by your manager.

























Whoops, sorry that is tyres after 12000 miles :-)

Simon

:-)

sure, and it you need new tyres more than every 40,000 miles, you are 
driving too hard

Alan

re.55:

Digital has always recognised the need to reimburse employees for oil
consumption. Until February 1995 this was done via the mileage rate. However, it
was recognised that oil usage between services was minimal in a modern car, and
thus we were overcompensated for oil. At no time has Digital said it will not
reimburse for oil consumption. If you do very high mileage in your car and as a
consequence suffer from high oil consumption then claim it as a valid out of
pocket expense.

Dave.

This all sounds fair enough....but does that mean that we can claim expenses for
car washes and if so how often. Personally I commute for about 500 miles a week
and therefore have to pay about 4.50 each week to keep my car in a reasonable
state !!

Regards

Barry

I do about 1000 miles/week and wash it once every 2-3 months. There 
seems little point in doing it more often - it gets dirty in about 5 
miles.

Alan

they do - with diesel and mud!  Nothing else can explain why, even when it's 
sunny and there's been no rain the night before, the roads are wet with slime.

Chris.

re.61:

I've never tried. I only clean the outside of the car when it's free courtesy of
a special offer. Why don't you submit a claim and let us know how you get on?

Dave.

    My 3p's worth:
    
    We should be allowed to claim for oil outside of services. Digital may
    be worried about abuse (claiming spouses car's oil etc) but claim we
    should.
    If these (legitimate) claims get rejected then do we just ignore the
    dipstick and oil warning lights? :-)
    Do we take the car to a dealer and ask them to check the engine for
    excessive wear and "oh by the way could you top it up while you're at
    it" every time the dipstick dips towards the line? :-) We certainly
    would if it was brake fluid!
    
    		Jon.
    		GKN employee to be who gives his car back soon!
    
    Who foots the bill if the engine goes feet up?

>    Who foots the bill if the engine goes feet up?

Digital does.  It's their fault if the engine burns out due to lack of oil, 
after all they told us that modern engines don't use oil.

Chris.

Re: .61

>                        ...   Personally I commute for about 500 miles a week
>and therefore have to pay about 4.50 each week to keep my car in a reasonable
>state !!

I can't see that you could claim for car washes due to "commuting", in just
the same way as you can't claim mileage for coming to your normal place of
work (or if you do then it is a taxable benefit).

In a similar way, claiming the _total_ cost of oil means that the company
is subsidising your private mileage, and so Mr Taxman will be after you -
one reason why including the oil as part of the business mileage rate _was_
a much better idea.

mb

p.s. Anyone tried claiming for screenwash??   8-)

                          <<< Note 2474.7 by CHEFS::WEAVERD >>>
                               -< 8p is eco friendly?? >-
    
    >>>Diesel is now generally recognised to be substantially LESS
    >>>desirable eco wise than modern lean burn petrol engines with cat etc.
    >>>Therefore the diesel statement would be saying short term profit is
    >>>more important than the health and future of the planet, not quite a
    >>>caring company stance????
     
    	What have you been reading?  The totally discredited Quarg report?
    
    	The burning of any Fossil fuel produces CO2 in direct proportion
    to the amount used, hence comparing like with like, a Diesel powered
    car will produce around 25% less.
    
    	A Diesel engine produces virtually NIL CO - you cannot gas yourself
    with Diesel exhaust.
    
    	In order to make up for the public pressure to stop using Lead in
    Petrol, the Oil companies now use Benzene, a known carcinegenic of
    such devastating toxicity that it has no known safe limit!  There is up
    to 2 pints of the stuff in every 10 gallons of unleaded!
    
    	NOx emissions are about the same for both.
    
    	Hydro carbons are not much different for each.
    
    	Particulates are NON-proven as a cause of Cancer, but are thought
    to be a major cause of Asthma.  Diesels emit a lot more PM10s than
    comparable petrol cars, but the PM3s (PM10=10 micron and PM3=3micron
    particle size) emitted in greater quantities by petrol engines, recent
    research seems to be showing that these PM3s are the major cause of
    Asthma.
    
    	Diesel uses less energy to produce in the refinery.
    
    	So which is better for the ecology?
    
    	The nearest to "green" energy source is Solar Energy, but the
    energy required to Produce such devices to utilize it probably largely
    negates any energy savings - I have fitted Solar Heating on my home to
    try and save some energy - for which I pay and save.
    
    	The Quarg Report was commissioned by the government in order to
    squash the pressure to reduce the tax on Diesel fuel to bring us into
    line with continental practice.
    
    	Cor, that's a bit long, hopefully it has dotted the "i's and
    crossed the t's" though.
    
    				Malcolm.

    >>	A Diesel engine produces virtually NIL CO - you cannot gas yourself
    >>  with Diesel exhaust.
    
    ....no, but I think you'd die from Cyanide poisoning.
    
    Graham

    I've just heard that the company car tax is reduced by 30% if it is 
    a diesel. Has anyone else heard about this or is there a
    misunderstanding somewhere. I'm paying top whack like everyone else
    and sure would like a reduction in tax code.
    
    Royston

�    I've just heard that the company car tax is reduced by 30% if it is 
�    a diesel. Has anyone else heard about this ...
        
        There's no mention of it in the booklet you get with your Tax
        code. The only discount (other than mileage) is one-third for
        cars over 4 years old.   Where did you hear this?
        
        Ian.

    A guy here read it in the Times. He's going to bring in the article.
    
    I'll post more info when I've checked it out.
    
    Royston

    	I've just had a cheque for �363.82 from the Inland Revenue for
    Jan-Mar '95 when I was unemployed!
    
    				Malcolm.

    Re my .70
    
    We've checked this out and was a false alarm.
    
    The reduction in tax for diesels relates ONLY to folks where the
    company pays for fuel for personal as well as business use.
    
    Royston