Conference terri::cars_uk

    Well, I'd certainly recommend it. On my car it does increase the fuel
    consumption noticable though, but fuel consumption is grim on my car
    anyway. Loss of power? well I haven't noticed really, but then 
    there is plenty to spare I guess. 
    
    I find mine plenty effective, but it can dry the cabin out a bit. You
    may also find that to cool the back of the car means having very cold
    air gushing out in the front, and it can get chilly. Mind you, when its
    roasting outside, nothing beats being able to glide along in cool relaxed
    comfort inside.
    
    /paul

I used Air con on a Nissan 200 SX once. It needs it. As with the Calibra,
there's a lot of glass and the car gets very hot inside when in direct
sunlight. I found the fuel consumption dropped dramatically when the
conditioning was on (20-30% at a guess!), but I didn't notice any loss in power.
This is probably due to the fact that the 200SX is very powerful anyway.

I did find, as .1 said, that it can get a bit chilly at times if you want the 
flow to reach the back seats. I haven't looked, but does the Calibra have 
air ducts under the front seats for rear seat passenegers. My Rover 214 did!



	Ian

>    I find mine plenty effective, but it can dry the cabin out a bit. You
>    may also find that to cool the back of the car means having very cold
>    air gushing out in the front, and it can get chilly. 

For dryness problems make sure you're not recycling the cabin air; you want 
the input to the A/C unit to be coming from (the humid) outside.

Cold front, warm back? No problem - just move the air vents delivering the
cold air so they point up and "deflect" the air off the roof and into the
back, or off the doors, or anywhere - just don't point it in your face! Cold
front and warm back is never a problem once you've given the system a chance
to cool the car down.

Colin.

    My 16V Calibra has air con. No noticeable difference in performance or
    fuel consumption, the second I never bother to check but I don't fill
    up much more often. No ducts under the seats as far as I can tell. With
    the blower on the second position I have to switch it off after a while
    as the cold blast is too chilling - I could turn the heater on  I
    suppose.
    
    At 95quid a year I'd have it again without a doubt.
    
    Andrew

	I have air conditioning on my three year old Citr�en BX TZD Turbo and
can relate my experiences.

	Firstly, it is useful in Great Britain at various times in the year when
it gets rather humid - Winter and Spring as well a August!  It has the advantage 
of drying out the air and hence is very useful when it is otherwise difficult
to get the windows to demist with heat alone (yes, you can use both together).

	My overall average consumption of Diesel is about 43 MPG.  If I try VERY
VERY hard, I've achieved 59 MPG and if I cruise at 85-90 MPH with the Air 
Conditioning "on," the the consumption will drop to about 38-40 MPG.

	When the air conditioning pump cuts in whilst holding a steady speed,
it is rather like taking one's foot off the throttle!  It certainly does affect 
the performance notice-ably, but not dramatically.  The BX Turbo Diesel (1.7
litre) only produces 90 BHP and 134 lb/ft of torque (more torque than the 
GTI 16v), so the power absorbed by air conditioning isn't that great.  I can't
see how another reply claims a 20% increase in fuel consumption, although the 
effect on fuel consumption for turbo charging Petrol versus Diesel engines has 
remarkably different effects upon each of them, so that could account for it.

	Whilst returning from Southern Spain, with air temperatures of 
43 degrees C (!!!) the air in the car was so cold that you could see your breath,
yet we were perspiring heavily due to the heat coming into the car via the 
(tinted) windows.  So air conditioning is not a complete panacea to humidity
and temperature problems in a car.

	I hope that helps you to come to your decision.

				Malcolm.

    
    Has anyone had any 'after market' air con fitted or know any places
    that do?
    
    Ta. Richard.

    re .6
    
    Yup. My folks had it fitted to their Sierra a couple of years back
    prior to shipping the car to Jamaica where they lived (its essential
    out there!) They had no problems at all with it. It was effective as
    mine.
    
    Incidentally the a/c system fitted did not run off the engine (via a
    belt) but had a gas cylinder which required charging every so often.
    A/c systems fitted when the car is being made in the factory seem more
    integrated an actually run *off* the engine.
    
    
    re .5
    
    You're right about the direct sun heat. Even when the cabin in my car
    is cool enough to make ice cream, your arms can still feel the heat if the
    sun is directly on them, hence the need ro usually let the cool air
    blow directly on you.
    
    /paul
    

    Get it.!!
    
    I always thought a/c was just another gimmick until I got the
    Mondeo. Although I've only had the car 2 months I couldn't imagine a
    car without a/c.
    
    Paul.

    
    Yup, Air Con. is THE luxury item to add to any car. I rented a Toyota
    Corolla, and the only thing I liked about it was the A/C. - there's
    nothing like being cool when it's hot and muggy outside. 
    My next car will definitely have it.
    
    Re: After market A/C - some of them take up the glove box, so check
    before you get it fitted.
    
    Al.

I'd agree with all said here, once you've had aircon in a car you won't want
to be without it. Doubly useful in a soft-top - you don't die quite as
quickly in summer traffic jams, and it helps when you don't get to the
car in time during the thunderstorm season! Mine also suffers a noticeable
lurch if it cuts in when I'm accelerating, so I normally switch it off
while changing gear to overtake.

I got a quote for after-market A/C on a 1.6 Nissan.

Came in as 1300 through the local NISSAN dealer.
Apparently most of this is spent in putting a larger wiring loom in to power the
A/C.  This comes as standard on the 2.0 and so the cost there is only 500.

The good thing is it is included in the car's guarantee.

Who else supplies after market A/C ?

    
    >Who else supplies after market A/C ?
    
    Wood & Pickett Coachbuilders do one for the Mini, replaces the standard
    heater.  Cost is around �1500...
    
    (They do nice dashboards for Minis too..)
    
    Ian
    

    Air con - Great
    
    I have a 2.0 litre Toyota Camry estate car auto with air con, so its no
    ball of fire. The best thing is the auto gearbox, then the air
    conditioning. I use it summer and winter as it keeps the car dry, and
    the heater still works fine. 
    
    As for power drop, there are times on long gentle hills when with the
    car loaded for holidays, I reach dowm and switch it off to overtake, as
    if the compressos clicks in half way past someone else and your foots
    already on the floor then you feel as if you might not make it!
    
    But it is still one of the best options on the car. I can't understand
    why there are only about 4 of us in te office who have it.
    
    cheers
    
    Richard

    I agree that A/C is very useful, even in the UK. Some systems are
    better integrated than others. Things to look for.
    
    1) Throttle switch, to disable the A/C when you are at full throttle.
    
    2) Adjustable cooling. Most systems have an On/Off switch only. When ON
    you can only adjust the amount of cooling by varying the fan speed. (Or
    using the heater as well - but this still results in the compressor
    running as if the heater wasn't being used, and so still uses more
    fuel). The Citroen BX has an adjustable A/C - the further you move the
    lever the lower the temperature when it cuts out. So you can have the
    A/C running just a little.
    
    Andrew
    

    Did someone just say air con in a SoftTop is a good idea?
    
    Greg

    Air-con: wouldnt be without it.
    
    Had 2 cars with it; Honda Accord 2.0l auto (�1250 per annum on the
    scheme) and PUG405 2.0l auto (�1280 on the scheme) . After the auto
    option the a/c was the next mandatory item on my wish list. Wanting to
    go diesel next time but as the Citroen is the only manufacturer I know
    of who do auto and diesel (at a reasonable price that is) , and
    Vauxhall dont then I'm expecting a problem.
    Peformance; with the Honda very little noticable drop
    		with the PUG a lot more noticable
    
    MPG;	about 5-10% drop for both
    
    Variability: niether car's a/c system inclided a thermo cut out
    although the PUG has a sliding temp nob which can be set at say 18
    degrees but probably turns the heater on to compensate for the cooling
    effect of the a/c; not a lot of point in that.
    
    Colin
    
     

Re: .15

	I had a Mustang convertable in Florida a few weeks ago, this had Air-Con
and it was excellent - the car only returned 18mpg but who care's when its only
65p a gallon. 

	I had hoped we could of made use of the flip top but it was just to hot/
humid - so we only used it early in the morning and late in the evening.

Andy

    The a/c system in some Toyotas has an 'ECON' mode, which goves slightly
    less cooling effect (not noticable in my opinion) and 'NORMAL' mode.
    
    The 'ECON' does however place a much lighter load on the engine. I've
    only ever used the 'NORMAL' mode once two years ago, but it was very
    very hot outside.
    
    The 'NORMAL mode gives you the full whack, uses more fuel and places a
    bigger burden on the engine.
    
    /paul
                                

    Thanks for all your replies, I've made my mind up and will definetly be
    ordering it.
    
    
    
    	Guy
    

>>   Did someone just say air con in a SoftTop is a good idea?
 
Of course! It keeps you cool while you top up the suntan. And it will
dry out the inside of the car this evening where the rain has leaked 
through the gaps in the hood :-)

Graham (in rainy Ferney)

    Another A/C phenomenon,
    
    The windscreen can mist up on the OUTSIDE 8^)
    
    I had to turn the A/C off in Florida as I couldnt see out of the
    windows due to misting on all the outsides of the glass. I'm sure there
    must be a way to overcome this. As for its value YES YES YES !!!
    
    
    TONY

re .21;

   >>The windscreen can mist up on the OUTSIDE 8^)
 
You have found a use for the windscreen wipers, methinks...


Peter.				;^)

    I have a 200sx with Aircon and use it regularly during hot or sunny
    days.  I also keep a close eye on fuel consumption and the difference
    between on and off is barely discernable; no more than a 5% penalty so
    far.
    
    Having had Aircon I would sacrifice other 'extras' for it.

    I have discovered something amazing!
    
    A friend of mine, whose a Ventilation Engineer, suggested that instead
    of having the fan on full, red hot air blowing everywhere and asking
    the passangers to stop breathing, I turn on the air conditioning.
    
    I, of course, told him that air con is only for use in hot weather -
    not for cold days with driving rain drenching the motorway ('scuse the
    pun).
    
    He ignored my sage advice, pressed the button and sat back with a smile
    as the _entire_, yes the _entire_, car demisted in about 30 seconds!
    
    You don't even need to have the air directed to the windscreen!!!

    re .-1
    
    Well, I can confirm this one. 
    
    My 300zx has a 'demist the windscreen' button which basically gives the
    screen a blast of a/c chilled air. Clears the screen in seconds, quite
    neat.
    
    -=paul=-

    When you consider that condensation is caused by a temp. difference
    between the outside and inside of the glass, I find this quite easy to
    understand.
    
    Simon

    Simon, I find it easy to understand too. Still neat though to have a
    fix it button I think.
    
    -=paul=-

For us poor people without air conditioning, a similar effect is available if
you have a switch that allows fresh air / recirculates air - make sure this
switch is on fresh air.

The demisting is much faster. Probably not 30 seconds though!

	Paul.

I always thought that moisture in the air affected condensation.

Air conditioning dries the air out.

Mark.

    Just to rathole for a minute:
    
    My lowly Mondeo has a "fix-it button" which also works when the outside
    of the front screen is one inch deep in ice.  It's labelled:
    
    	Front Screen Demist
    
    :-)
    
    Jon

Most US cars that have Air conditioning have slightly different climate controls
than European models.

There is a "defroster" position on the climate control system which enganges the
air conditioning compressor and positions a flap such that the air is directed at
the windscreen.  If you put the temperature control in the "HOT" position, the
air is still quite warm, but its dry because the air conditioning system has
dried it out (and cooled it) prior to the time that the heater core warms it up.

It is better to use the hot temperature in conjunction with the air conditioner
(possible in european models by engaging the A/C button) because if you use COLD
air, the car will heat up again from people breathing, etc... and you can get
fogging again.  If you heat up the car with dry air, it doesn't cool back down
(as quickly) to a point where condensation is possible.

-Al

I used to ask my wife to stop breathing when the inside fogged up before we had
cars with Air Conditioning - she didn't take any notice though!

I like the way the OUTSIDE of the Windscreen mists up when I use the Air
Conditioning in humid (hot or cold) weather, get some funny looks when I put the
wipers on to clear it!

A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ONE AND ALL, and a prosperous (in DIGITAL?) New Year
to follow.

				Malcolm.

    A new air con compressor was ordered yesterday for my Carlton - we'll
    see when it arrives.
    
    800 pounds was stated as the cost. Why does a fridge compressor cost
    under a hundred? Are car compressors so very different?
    
    Andrew

    Well the compressor has arrived - can't complain. Just need to find a
    time to fit it.
    
    Still don't understand why it costs 800 quid.
    
    Andrew

    What's the power rating of your fridge, Andrew? What's the power rating
    of your air conditioning? Whether it's measured in BTU/Hr, kiloWatts or
    horse power it's probably a lot more powerful than your fridge motor.
    10hp would be a good starting point (say 7kW ie more than 13A @ 240V).
    
    What's the duty cycle, too - your fridge motor probably doesn't often
    exceed 20% ontime, 80% offtime. On a hot or humid day you want your car
    aircon compressor to run at 100% duty cycle all journey.
    
    Hopefully the fridge motor sits in a nicer environment - in your
    kitchen rather than under a bonnet, where the temperature can easily
    range between -10 Celsius and (at least) 40 Celsius with a hot engine 3
    cm away.  Also your fridge motor is in a nice sealed tin can so that
    the works are effectively lubricated for life by an oil bath. 
    
    Volume-market fridges these days are made in low-paid eastern european
    (or British) factories. Who makes car aircon compressors? Dunno, but
    unless they supply Peugeot's 405 factory they don't sell volume.
    
    Apart from that, they're fairly similar :-)
    
    regards
    john

    John,
    
    You've been justifying VAX prices for too long.
    
    I can't read the dirty old compressor, I'll check the new one. My
    wife's Saab's compressor is made in Japan so probably pretty cheap. The
    worldwide air-con market must be vast. Most of the time in the UK the
    compressor is doing nothing, though still spinning etc so will be
    wearing out. 10Hp sounds way too much - the car engine is probably only
    120-130 ish and there is no noticeable slow down when the air-con is
    on.
    
    I'll go with charging what the buyer will stand.
    
    Andrew

    Andrew, 10 hp isn't necessarily way out. On my Rover 214, there is a
    link between aircon and engine management such that if engine revs are
    low, the engine management kicks the revs up as the compressor cuts in.
    
    On a colleagues aircon Saab, the compressor cuts out while you are
    accelerating hard, because the driver wants max power to the wheels.
    
    If the load was trivial they wouldn't bother.
    
    On some US versions of European cars (Golf=>Rabbit, Astra=>?) the
    aircon load used to seriously slug the vehicle, or cause stalling if
    badly managed.
    
    regards
    john

	Mr Mod, please feel free to move this if this is considetred the
inappropriate setting.

	On my BX, the Aircon was driven by mechanical means from the engine and
when the Aircon pump "cut in," there was a definite effect on performance, like,
at steady speeds - lifting your foot off the accelerator pedal.

	On my nice new Xantia, the Aircon seems to be driven by an electric
motor instead of directly by the engine.

				Malcolm.

PS.  This system won't let me compose the "e" in Citroen.  I can do �, but it
won't let me use the Shift key - strange.

    �?  Not difficult.  Try e and ".
    
    R��h�rd
    

re .12;

is this a "proper" integrated air-con, like the BX was, or is it a dealter
fit add-on, like the ZX? 

Peter.

    I dont think AC can be electrically driven. The power requirement is
    much greater than a cars electrical system can provide.
    
    (How to provide AC is one of the problems for electric cars.
    Particularly for the Californian market. Heating is another one. The
    power requirements for both of these are such that they would severly
    dent the range of an electric car).
    
    Andrew

    Fascinating. (Mr Mod, shift this lot to an AC topic if appropriate).
    
    So for Californian purposes could we foresee electrically powered cars
    where the AC is driven by a specially-designed petrol engine, of
    lawnmower-engine size, perfectly matched to its load at all times (the
    AC load is either on or off!), therefore running at maximum efficiency
    and minimum emissions at all times. Not zero emission, but probably
    close. 

    re .17
    
    Well, thats a possibility ! Of course, when the A/C doesn't need the
    engine it could be used to recharge the batteries. When you need heat
    you could get it from a mechanical device coupled to the engine,
    suplemented by the waste heat from the engine.
    
    One snag with the new refrigerant fluids, which as less harmfull to the
    ozone layer, is that they are less efficient. I.e. they take more
    engine power to provide the same amount of cooling. The ones which are
    not at all harmful to the ozone layer are even less efficient (and they
    are still greenhouse gasses, even though they dont destroy ozone).
    
    Andrew

    Hang on. How much power does AC draw ? I used to think that a home
    fridge (European size, that is .. 8^)) ...) draws around 200W. That
    should not be a big problem, even for batteries. What do you think ? 

    re .47
    
    A home fridge is carefully insulated and air tight enclosure of just a
    few cu ft. A car has a much greater surface area, some of which must be
    transparent (and so will let radiant heat in, even if it could be
    insulated against conduction of heat). In addition a car has a
    requirement for a certain amount of outside air to be introduced. It
    also has several heat sources inside the cabin (electrical -
    instruments, radio etc and biological - people). A car is often placed
    in a less favourable position (in direct sunlight on a dark road
    surface - and it is often dark coloured itself).
    
    I imagine the amount of heat that needs to be extracted by the A/C is
    many times that which needs to be extracted by a fridge.
    
    Andrew

    re .36
    
    Well they fitted the compressor... and now it needs a new condenser.
    
    This will have to be ordered from the factory and the garage have no
    idea when it will come. Hertz have agreed this. 
    
    Guess I could be at the back of a long queue.
    
    Andrew

    I have been reading this note stream with a little interest. Althought
    I don't have air on my Espace I did have it on the company hack in
    Musca, Oman (Pug 505 estate).
    
    All cars had it fitted even a base Mitsubishi Lancer, you just could'nt
    buy a car without. Aftermarket service is subsiquently geared up to
    service these units and I would'nt be suprised to hear about ozone
    holes above the Persian Gulf.
    
    Anyway my compressor failed very dramatically one day, driving along on
    a reasonably hot day (40ish C). Dumped all the refrigerent out and the
    cabin temp rocketed all in about 15seconds.
    
    It was fixed the same day by the Pug dealer in about 2 hours. No sweat,
    (well, very little and it was all mine).
    
    Dave

    Condensor has arrived and is to be fitted tomorrow - I'll believe it
    when I see it working.
    
    Who pays for these kind of items? Digital or Herz?
    
    Andrew

    With the hot weather now hitting the UK, I was wondering if there is 
    any cheap, DIY air con around?
    
    
    In my nice simplistic view, has anybody invented something which plugs
    into your cigarette lighter, and is cold? You then stick it in front of
    your fan, inside the car, and hey presto, it blows cold air!
    
    Nah, too simple too work!
    
    Greg
    

    
    Greg,
   >>In my nice simplistic view, has anybody invented something which plugs
   >>into your cigarette lighter, and is cold? You then stick it in front of
   >>your fan, inside the car, and hey presto, it blows cold air!
    
    I am sure I have seen fans on dashboards (esp in trucks). If you can
    plug a little Christmas tree in, I can see no reason that a fan will not
    work. Innovations or those sort of companies sell them I think, or try
    Les Smith/Halfords. Actually I am going to Halfords tonight, I will try
    and have a look when I am in there.
     
    			
    			Stretch.

        I'm thinking of more than a fan, Stretch, I'm after something that
        pushes out artificially created cold air.
    

    >I am sure I have seen fans on dashboards
    
    Don't waste your money. They are not powerful enough and only blow
    hot air around. You'll get more air flow by opening your window.
    
    Royston

>    In my nice simplistic view, has anybody invented something which plugs
>    into your cigarette lighter, and is cold? You then stick it in front of
>    your fan, inside the car, and hey presto, it blows cold air!
    
I'd guess that the amount of current something suitably powerful would need to 
draw would melt the socket!  Just wind the window down... :)

Chris.

    >> Just wind the window down
    
    Yeh, but when it's 28 degree's outside, that doesn't cool you down that
    much!

    You can get small fans that allow your to insert ice cubes in them, so
    that they blow out cooler air - but i wouldn't expect them to last very
    long in a car on a hot day!!!!!!

    I'm sure I saw something like this in an Innovations catalogue (where
    else?!!) the other day... They have a web site where one can view and
    order goodies, maybe it's on there.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    QVT, the Shopping Channel is flogging these dash-mounted fans.
    
    Stephen
    

    
    	My guess is that to create artificially cold air would involve
    	having somewhere to get rid of the heat.  Which means something
    	that's pretty well built into the car...?
    	Doubltess someone will prove me wrong...
    
    	Pete (who just put a second fan on his desk!)
    

    
    I have a Camping Fridge that runs of Calor/240vac/12vdc, when
    travelling I just plug it into the Cigar lighter or attach it to the
    auxilliary trailer socket. As this manages to produce Ice and keep
    everything inside it below 0, then I don't see any reason why a cooling
    element mounted in front of a fan wouldn't work from the Cigar lighter
    also.
    
    Graham

    Proper air conditioning does require somewhere to dump the unwanted
    heat. It also takes a lot of power to do this (several hundred watts,
    which is why the compressor is driven by the engine).
    
    I like the idea of the ice cubes, but I think you need to store a lot
    more 'cold'. Maybe a large block of dry ice in an insulated box, with a
    fan and some ducting for the cold air would work a bit better.
    
    A more efficient way of using ice cubes is to take them internally
    (with quantities of suitably flavoured liquid).
    
    Andrew

    The aspect of Air Conditioning which is more important than the
    temperature of the air is the amount of humidity contained within
    it.
    
    Me thinks you're out of luck.
    
    Time to buy a new car.
    
    -Al
    
    

    re .62
    
    A camping fridge works, but it does have a radiator on the back which
    gets warm. More heat is given off by this radiator than is removed from
    the interior of the fridge. If you placed the fridge in a well
    insulated room, opened the door and left it turned on then the
    temperature in the room will rise. Also, it cannot remove much heat
    from the inside of the fridge yet it probably takes as much power from
    the cigar lighter socket as is safe.
    
    So you still have the 2 problems.
    1) You need a lot of power to pump the heat out of the interior of the
    car - it is a large volume, poorly insulated from the outside heat and
    has large windows to let in solar heat. No one would build a fridge that
    way, as it would require a lot of power to keep it cold.
    
    2) You still need somewhere to dump the waste heat
    
    Andrew

    As has been said, any refrigeration or air conditioning takes heat from
    one place (e.g. the air it takes in) and puts it somewhere else, where
    it comes out hotter.
    
    Simple gizmos with fans and ice cubes may make things _worse_ because
    they will increase the humidity of the output air. But I reckon it's
    unlikely you'll notice the change in temperature OR humidity from one
    of these.
    
    I also have one of the electric camping coolers. It just about keeps
    things cool if they start cold. It would not realistically cool
    anything from room temperature in this weather.
    
    When I was changing my car this time, I was looking at Rover 200s vs
    Peugeot 306s. The Rover dealer offered me an attractive-sounding deal
    on a 214 he had in stock, and offered dealer-fit aircon, so there are
    some aftermarket aircons around. For other reasons, I went for a 306.
    The aircon is nice.... 
    
    regards
    john
    
    

Re: .63
    
>    A more efficient way of using ice cubes is to take them internally
>    (with quantities of suitably flavoured liquid).
    
    This is the kind of logic that i like to hear!!!!
    
    Do you drive a Vectra by any chance????          

    Re .62
    
    My car is a base model (Peugeot 306) with no aircon and only a
    tilt-sunroof. On hot days I drive around with the driver's window full
    open, the sunroof on tilt and the temperature as low as it will go. I
    get a lovely cool breeze coming in when driving, it only feels hot when
    stopped in traffic. But to keep the car cool during the day when it's
    parked in the car park, I often put a sunshade across the windscreen,
    held in place by the (what do you call them?!) sun visor things that
    you pull down to keep the sun out of your eyes! The sunshades are the
    size of most windscreen, made of really thick card and fold away
    neatly(ish) when not in use. They really make the car feel cool when
    you get in to go home from work and only cost about �10.
    
    Goldy.

    >> The sunshades are the size of most windscreen, made of really thick
    >>card and fold away neatly(ish) when not in use. They really make the
    >>car feel cool when you get in to go home from work and only cost about
    >>�10.
    
    Cheers Goldy, 
    
    Just picked one up at Charlie Brown's for �2.99!
    

    
  >>  neatly(ish) when not in use. They really make the car feel cool when
  >>  you get in to go home from work and only cost about �10.
                                                     ^^^^^^^^
    if anyone from engineering woh has access to all that card-board used
    for packaging reads this they'll have a field day %^) If they do
    reflective ones I imagine they'd be even better BTW.
    
    As far as getting rid of the excess heat from a cooling element, what
    we need then, is something where the hot bit is outside and the cold
    bit is inside, preferably with fan attached; The obviuos way to do this
    wuod be to have something which hooked over the window glass, and the
    window was then wound back up.
    
    Graham
    
    BTW< there's a big difference between camping fridges and electric
    coolers - Fridges are just that, they take the temp. down to below
    freezing and keep it there; coolers usually cool to x degrees below the
    ambient temperature so if it's hot outside, things in a cooler aren't
    quite so hot.           
    

In some of the dry states (humidity wise) they have these things called Swamp 
Coolers.  They attach to a door frame and looks like a tube about 18" long and 
6" in diameter.  Apparently you fill part of it with water and as you drive 
the air forced through it, goes over the water, gets cooled and is forced into 
the car.  If already have high humidity *and* heat, this probably would not be 
the best solution, but it uses no power.

Dave

    
    Hey, that sounds greate ! I'll have to convene a meeting of the
    'inventors circle' at the pub tomorrow night and see if we can't work
    out how it works and how to build one.
    
    Every few weeks we come up with an earth shattering invention which will
    revolutionise the future of mankind, unfortunately by the time we can
    actually do anything about it we've usually lost the Beer mat we designed
    it on %^/ - I'll take special care of this one %^)
    
    Graham
    Graham

    By evaporating water you can reduce temperature to the dew point. If
    you evaporate enough water (and have somewhere to get rid of the humid
    air) then you can extrace a significant amount of heat. The lowest
    temperature actually obtained would be somewhat above the dew point, as
    there would be a temperature gradient between the coolest point (where
    the water is evaporating) and the thing being cooled (The inside of the
    car).
    
    Anyone know what the dew point is when the air temperature is 25� and
    relative humidity is 50% ? (A table of vapour pressure of water should
    be enough to work this out).
    
    Andrew

    
    	Go for a Xantia when considering your new car - All Xantia's are
    now fitted with Aircon as standard (as were later Peugot 405's).  Just
    one more reason to choose a Xantia.
    
    	On a slightly less contentious note, Aircon in a car really comes
    into its own when it is humid, hot or cold, it really does demist the
    windows of the car quite quickly.  The only thing I find is that, if it
    is very humid, when you turn off the Aircon, the windows often steam up
    again quite quickly - probably because the windows have been made quite
    cold.  In hot and humid weather, it is interesting to see the
    condensation on the OUTSIDE of the windscreen when in stop/start
    traffic!
    				Malcolm.

    .. they'd have to do quite a few other things to a Xantia before I'd
    choose one %^)
    
    Graham 

    I've a Vectra demonstrator at the moment.  These last two days have
    been magic - the car may be dubious,  but at least I'm sitting nice and
    comfy at about 15 degrees inside while everyone else is sweating at 30
    in the queue :-)
    
    
    Jc
    

    I have air conditioning but won't have it next time. My longish journey 
    this week was far more comfortable with the fresh air coming in through
    the vents, roof etc than the cold from the air conditioner. I also
    wonder about the health aspect of a.c. I'm sure it does your chest etc
    no good. 
    Howard

    The evaporation technique would do nothing to reduce the humidity (in
    fact the relative humidity would increase !). To reduce the humidity
    you need to chill the air down to somewhere around 5 degrees and allow
    the water to condense.
    
    The Air conditioning in the later 405 is great -its thermostaticly
    controlled (as is the heating) so you can set the controls and forget
    them (well, you might turn up the fan when its really hot). Trouble is,
    my wife needs the 405 to ferry the children around. So I am left with
    the 205 (which has a sunroof that lets in more heat than it lets out).
    
    Andrew

    Two things:
    
    1) If you suffer from hay fever, air conditioning and recirculation the
    air makes a big difference during summer days.  My symptoms have
    virtually disappeared.  Roads have high pollen counts because the
    traffic movement keeps stirring up the pollen.
    
    2) My Peugeot 405 has a thermostatic control for air-conditioning but
    I would not recommend spending extra money on the thermostatic
    control.  The problem is that the car has a different opinion of what
    20 degrees C is depending on whether the air con is off or on.  i.e. if
    you switch off the aircon, you suddenly get warm air (even if it is
    cooler outside the car).
    
    Cheers-Ken

    re .79
    
    The 405 also has a pollen filter in the air intake, so you shouldn't
    need to switch to recirculated air to get rid of pollen. I dont think
    the filter will extract smaller particles (such as vehicle exhausts). A
    useful feature would be a partial recirculation position, where maybe
    75% of the air was recirculated and 25% was fresh. This would reduce
    the amount of cooling/heating required while still providing sufficient
    fresh air to avoid the car becoming stuffy.
    
    I think thermostatic control works by adjusting the flap that controls
    the mixture of heated and cold air that comes into the car I.e. it may
    turn the heater on a bit to warm up the air which has just been
    chilled. When you turn off the AC the heater flap will have to adjust
    to the rise in temperature of the air coming into the heater. This will
    take time, as the heater flap will only move in response to the
    interior air temperature changing. I haven't found it to be a problem
    in my car (and yesterday I did 250 miles, sometimes using the AC and
    sometimes not). A really smart heater control system would also monitor
    the air temperature at the output of the heater, using this to anticipate
    changes in the inside temperature (It might also measure the brightness
    of the sun, so it could adjust the system before any change was noticed
    in the inside temperature).
    
    I do wish the AC had a cut off switch on the accelerator pedal. The
    load really does make a noticeable difference in acceleration (with the
    turbo diesel engine).
    
    Andrew

    How long can you expect a cars air conditioning system to function
    effectively [blasts out nice cold air when set to fully cold] or is it
    something that gradually gets less efficient over time [even over 3
    years from new]? 
    
    Does an A/C system have to be serviced every few years?
    
    Does anyone know how a garage tests the effeciency of an A/C system -
    that's besides running it and putting a hand over an outlet!?
    
    Dave

    Over time you can get a loss of the refrigerant, as it will leak
    through the smallest of holes.I dont think there is any regular maintenance. Possibly you
    should replace the refrigerant every so many years, but it may be
    better to run it untill there is a problem. You can tell once
    all the refrigerant goes, as you get no cooling, but testing for a
    partial loss isn't so easy. There must be a reservoir where the liquid
    collects, and in theory the liquid level in there would tell you if you
    had the right amount of refrigerant in there, but obviously you cant
    just use a dip stick in it! It might be possible to take temperatures
    at different points in the system to see if it was working right, or
    look at the duty cycle of the compressor (if it is on all the time then
    something is wrong !).
    
    I think you can 'top up' the system, but I dont know how you know when
    it is full enough. 
    
    I expect this is discussed in the carbuffs notes file, as it is a more
    common problem over there. 
    
    Andrew

Re hay fever, allergy or whatever,

I discovered, via a horticultural friend of mine, that the reason the main 
culprit, rapeseed (namely the rather hideous yellow stuff) smells like rotting 
cabbage is that it's actually related to the cabbage plant.  So now you know!

Chris.

    Sun sensor for the air conditioning ? Certainly sir. The Saab 9000 has
    one on the top of the dashboard (it looks a bit like a trackerball, for
    anyone who wants to steer their car PC-style).

    Mmm, learning lots here.   What maintenance should there be on the
    pollen filters?  Does a routine garage service include filter cleaning?
    -Ken

    re .85
    
    I think the pollen filter needs to be replaced periodically. I think
    this is on the maintenance schedule, so it should be part of the
    service (but you should probably check at non franchised garages).
    
    Andrew

    
    
    Pollen filter is changed at the nearest service to 50K miles on a 
    SAAB 9000 (and by that time it is distinctly grey). As well as getting
    rid of pollens it also seems to reduce the smell when following a
    smokey diesel. 
    
    Graham	

    There are after-market aircon units (going back to note 60-something),
    they consist of a condensor which mounts in the airflow of the car, a
    compressor which is fan-belt driven by the engine & a radiator-type
    thing with fan which goes into the car. Typical installation costs are
    1400-2000 pounds for a mediocre system, so you would be better of to
    trade-in the car. The target market for this system is older classic
    cars where aircon was not available.
    
    
    Tony.

    	Minor Nit Tony, Not FAN-belt, usually a separate belt.
    
        How is life up in Ayr?  Glad you have settled in enough to rejoin
    the conference.
    				Malcolm.