Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    My Alfa Romeo Guilietta has front electric windows which do
    not operate with the ignition off. Being an Alfa I suspect 
    that they are supposed too but with the power off all that
    is on constant live is the radio, electric door mirrors and
    the horn plus hazards.
    
    Maybe there is a reason for leaving the windows on live in
    your car but I don't know what it is. My Alfa is about 8 years
    old so the safety thinking was there even then.
    
    JN.

    Vauxhall windows, well cavalier and carlton, work with the ignition off
    until the interior light comes on then they don't. They have sensors,
    which, if they sense resistance back off and stop, and also an override
    button to combat frosty, stiff days.
    I read this too. Could you believ the case where a couple drove their
    Range Rover for several miles with the child's head trapped outside
    when the window came up. Parents should be shot for this kind of thing.
    
    Andrew

Vauxhall windows, well Nova don't work with the ignition off - ever.

they also aren't the "one touch" type...

    
    My Audi GT's windows don't work with ignition off which has always been
    a mild annoyance to me - you park the car, turn off engine, then
    realise the windows are open so you have to turn the key to ignition on
    to shut them.  A very minor matter, but I always wondered why they
    didn't work with the ignition off....
    
    ...but then I don't have kids...
     

       I had a FIAT Tipo as a hire car once (in France), and the windows
       would only work with ignition off if the door was also open. I
       believe the Peugeot 405 also uses this method. 

       Personally, I don't find it at all inconvenient to wind a handle
       round a couple times when I want to adjust the windows. Actually, 
       my wife has always insisted that we *don't* have electric windows.

       By the time my lease is due for renewal, my daughter will be 2 years
       old. I very much hope I'll still be able to get a car with manual
       windows then.

       Ian.

    
    We'll arrive at the stage where manual wind windows will 
    become the optional extra.
    
    JN.

    
    Fords don't have electric windows which work without the ignition on.
    
    My Ford has a switch so that I can disable the rear seat passengers
    with little fingers (or the grown up variety) from operating them.
    
    How many other makes have this feature?
    
    Chris
    

    Re -.1
    
    � My Ford has a switch so that I can disable the rear seat passengers
    � with little fingers (or the grown up variety) from operating them.
    
    � How many other makes have this feature?
    
    All of the ones I've encountered! 
    
    Ian.

    
    The ones that work without the ignition being on are probably the ones
    that automatically close all windows when you lock the door.
    
    But what happens when you want to leave the windows/sunroof open a
    litle on a hot day?
    
    Chris
    

I think we may be missing the point here....


Why was the child allowed to play in the car by his/herself in the first place?

You can legislate, design, upgrade, downgrade, fit all the gadgets and bells
and whistles and airbags you like..... it still comes down to common sense,
education and, in the case in point, parental care.

I'm very annoyed when I read a statment by the father who lost his child in 
this case, demanding that all cars be changed.  If he'd been there, looking 
after his child, he could have prevented this tragedy.  Kids will always 
find a way of getting themselves hurt.  It's a feature of the design.



Ian

Ps.  Peugeot windows won't move with the keys out unless one of the front doors
is wide open.

	RE: -1

	Good point.  

	I'm sure that a child left alone in a car could find many easier
	ways to top themselves than playing 'chicken' with the electric
	windows.


		- Don

	I agree with Ian,


	Design all you like, and next week there'll be an article on how a kid
	managed to find the ignition keys, turn it on, then trap their head.

	
	If 2-year old kids are left unsupervised in a dangerous instrument 
	like a car, then all the design in the world won't stop accidents 
	happening.

	Heather

    Re: .10, .12

    Fully agree. Even with total parental care they will try it on. Turn
    your back and there will be some serious mischief making. Leave them
    alone and whatever happens is your own fault.

    Re: .8

 >> All of the ones I've encountered! 
    
    That's really helpful.

    Chris

    
    My father has a Fiat Tipo, I find the screaming about lack of parental 
    guidance misguided. I agree with the last few replies. The only thing I 
    think could be done is to put some sort of sensor to detect high
    presure, in the event of something getting stuck in the window it won't
    squeeze the hell out of it.
    
    
    Garry

       Re .10

       I agree entirely that the child should not have been left alone.
       However, the FIAT window does seem to be unnecessarily dangerous.
       As I said earlier, the version of the TIPO sold on the continent
       does not work like that, so why does the UK one?

       Re .13
  �    That's really helpful.

       OK. Vauxhall, Rover, Honda and Mazda I know from experience fit
       manual overides to the passenger windows. If Ford have got around
       to doing it, it's a pretty fair bet that most other manufacturers
       have done it already (sorry, wrong topic!).

       Ian.

    
    	Agree with the change of direction on this note! Kids will find
    things to play with in cars and dont have the neural network to
    recognise the danger!!! A 2 year old finding keys is unlikley to figure
    the potential in an ignition switch - more likely to swallow them and
    choke to death! 
    
    	Wake up all parents who would leave kids in a closed car on a sunny
    day, just pop down to the dairy and not bother with the seatbelt, leave
    your children unattended in a car with electric windows that work all
    the time and dont have presure switches..........
    
    	Shit will happen if you let it - be carefull and responsible!!
    
    @
    
    

    My car's handbrake will release without the ignition on !.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen

    Comments about children being left unsupervised in a car are very
    correct, but even so, the particular case of electric windows is
    one that can be avoided quite easily by the manufacturer.
    
    A sensor strip was announced years ago, that would cut power to
    the windows when the rising window met an obstruction.  I don't
    know if it has been fitted by any of the manufacturers, but it
    was highly praised when the 'invention' was announced.  This would
    also work if the windows were being raised and a child, or animal,
    managed to put a limb out of the window on its way up.  Again, the
    operator should notice this, but if they don't, this would help...
    
    I still think the handbrake is of more concern for an unsupervised
    child left in a car.  What solution there, a Krooklok ?
    
    Next argument would be, why leave your child unattended in a car ?
    
    J.R.

    	Rover fit some sort of sensor on their high end models (the
    	TV ad shows the window stopping as a canary lands on it).
    
        Ian.

    
    After hearing of this case I experimented with the Calibra's windows.
    
    They do stop (reverse actually) when they meet a lot of resistance,
    but I wouldn't trust my throat to it!
    
    Mark

    As I started this in the first place, I'll put my thoughts on this:
    
    I agree with most of the point raised here.  It IS madness to leave a
    child in a car by themselves etc etc.  My point is that I was unaware
    that MY car (Citroen ZX Volcane) had this ignition off-doors open
    window feature until after the incident last week.  My one year old
    son loves playing 'driver' (playing with steering, stalks, windows
    and electric sunroof), he IS supervised but I feel it's a case of the
    'quick little blighter' being faster than daddy can react.  Now I know
    I can let him play on my lap without worry.
    I can imagine the grief I would feel if he had jammed his hand in the
    window when I didn't know about this 'feature'.
    I shall check the owner manual to see if it is mentioned there.  The 
    windows certainly don't stop when they meet resistance.  I've got the
    bruises on my hand to prove that!
    
    	Jon.
    

    
    I've never liked electric windows on cars. My previous Audi's all had
    electric windows but my latest Coupe' thankfully does not. Having a 4mm
    thick plate of glass rocketing up and down a door frame may be some
    peoples idea of luxury, but it's not mine. They are in my opinion,
    lethal if kids are around, especially those windows that operate when the 
    ignition is switched off.
    
    Fingers are FREQUENTLY broken, hair is often trapped (ask my
    girlfriend), and sadly young lives are occasionally lost.
    
    What's wrong with giving a handle a couple of turns?  
         
                            

    
    I like 'em.
    
    I class them along with ABS, electric sunroofs and other 'nice to
    haves, but I wouldn't pay the extra'.
    
    Partly it's laziness, but I like the fact that I can open both windows
    from the driver's seat and can do it without having to keep my hands
    off the wheel for more than a couple of seconds.
    
    There are far too many things which are dangerous without proper care
    to make outlawing them acceptable. Certainly I've nothing against the 
    choice being offered, but I will take the convenience of electric windows 
    when available.  
    
    However, there is an undeniable case, as highlighted in the recent
    case, but no doubt (as .22 says) common, for making them safer to use.
    Personally, I don't consider even a broken finger to be an acceptable
    level of injury from an electric window, when it seems relatively easy 
    to prevent.
    
    Mark

    
>    What's wrong with giving a handle a couple of turns?  
         
Well, I find that having an electric passenger window is particularly useful as 
it's not easy to reach a handle on the door from the driver's seat.

I like the setup I have now.  Why should we all have to suffer from people who
insist on having the combination of kids and cars ? 

    
>>I like the setup I have now.  Why should we all have to suffer from people who
>>insist on having the combination of kids and cars ? 
    
    It may also have some bearing on people with the mentality of a
    child...
    
    
    ... a subject you should be able to relate to Jane.
    
    
    Shaun.

    Re handbrake, the only car I've seen this neat feature on was my wife's
    old Citroen Visa: The release button had a shoulder to grip, and if you
    PULLED the button against a strong spring it would allow you to pull it
    out and rotate it. 
    
    It had keys on the side, and when you rotated it 90 degree's these
    would sit on a step and thus prevent the button being pushed back in.
    The only way to release it was to pull and rotate 90 deg. again. 
    
    This very effectively stopped little hands from releasing it
    accidently.
    
    Re windows, the BX windows never worked without the ignition, neither
    does the Rover 200/400. However, neither do they have any sensing, so
    they could cause damage if operated without caution.
    
    However, it's much less likely being tied to the ignition.
    
    Richard 

Re: .25

>    ... a subject you should be able to relate to Jane.
    

how would you know....bloody cheek.

	fact:

	My wife's Cavalier (SRi) has electric windows on the front only,
	they do operate once the ignition has been turned off, but only
	until one of the doors is opened.  They are both one touch.

	opinion:

	(1) the sort of electric windows where you have to keep your
	finger pressed on the switch saves no time and hardly any 
	effort.

	(2) children should never be left unsupervised, either in
	cars or elsewhere.  (Yes, parents are to blame).

	(3) I don't give a monkey's cuss what anyone else's decisions
	are; I wouldn't criticise other people's decision to have 
	or not have children.  I certainly wouldn't call them stupid.

	Dave

Re: .28

>	are; I wouldn't criticise other people's decision to have 
>	or not have children.  I certainly wouldn't call them stupid.

Noone else has either...

I suggest you read notes before replying to them.

    .28�	(2) children should never be left unsupervised, either in
    .28�	cars or elsewhere.  (Yes, parents are to blame).
    
    When is a child not a child??
    
    When should a child be "supervised" and when should they be old enough
    to experiment for themselves as a normal part of growing up?? 5, 15,
    25 ?? who can say when someone is "old enough to look after themselves?"
    
    
    I have 2 children - 2 and 5.
    
    We allow them as much "freedom" as we feel they can SAFELY take. That
    means a lot of the time they are un-supervised, AS LONG AS we know
    where they are, and what they are (approximately) doing - so we can
    assess (approximately) how safe they are.
    
    Yes, accidents will happen.
    
    Our 2 year-old fell into the water from the boat. 
    "Responsible adults" were at least 50 yards away. He was "quite safe"
    (but very shaken!) because we knew he had a life jacket on. 
    He now knows why we tell him to be careful when near the water - and so
    it is a lesson well learnt, and safely learnt.

    
    EXACTLY!!!!
    
    Jane merely said that if you must insist on having kids you shouldn't
    have cars too!
    
    I suspect her comment was more than slightly tongue in cheek. After all, 
    just think of all those people who would be thrown out of work at the 
    'Child On Board' sticker manufacturing plant! 
    
    Mark

One has to make a decision about how much freedom and possible exposure to
danger a child should be allowed. If children are protected from every
forseeable danger, they are likely to have rather dull lives.

I don't think it was unreasonable of the unfortunate father to consider that
the risks his daughter faced were low. If this is the first case of a child
being killed by an electric window, then it is unlikely that he could have
forseen this accident. 
             
dougie

    
    The degree of supervision that children are given is of course a
    parental choice. I personally find it frightening to think of a
    2-year-old child being left unattended on a boat or in a car. Of
    course, I dont know all the facts. If the child was out of sight then
    there is no supervision. I dont know if there were any propellers in
    action on any of the boats, or whether with or without a lifejacket
    there was a danger of the child being crushed by traffic or entangled
    in submerged weeds.  What I do know is that there is a lot to be learnt
    from parents who are recovering from the trauma of having lost a child.
    Its easy to say, "Why did that parent do that ?" when we read of
    disasters. The answers are various, including allowing children to
    experience danger for themselves. My children lead exciting lives,
    mainly due to the fact that they are still alive.
    
    Question : Is a child legally "in charge" of a car if they are the soul
    occupant ?  If they were a drunk adult they would be !
    
    Tony.

	Ok, so last night I was feeling a tad niggley - apologies all round
	for anyone offended.  Anyhow, I'll now offend a few more...

	I have two children, a daughter of 4 and a son of 2.  I wouldn't
	dream of leaving them alone in either car (Marlin, Cavalier).
	Maybe it's personal experience, but once as a young lad (8?9?) I
	was playing in the woods at the bottom of our road when a car
	entered the wood and buried itself in a tree.  I was nowhere near
	there, so I was ok.  The reason?  Small child in car let handbrake
	off.  

	Like someone in one of the replies, I too let my kids sit on my
	lap and pretend to drive (on the drive, I might add).  What's safe
	and not safe, I guess that as a parent, you have to use your common
	sense and a little imagination.  However, it is true that they can
	hurt themselves with you stood next to them.  I have to admit that
	I am probably more careful than average (judging from what I observe
	of other parents and kids); but so far we haven't had to dash to 
	the casualty ward with either kid.  Even as a "safe" parent (and I
	bet an expert would find some unsafe practices, though) I don't 
	believe that I need nannying by the state...

	Dave

Re: .31


>    Jane merely said that if you must insist on having kids you shouldn't
>    have cars too!

I did not....


Pah, chinese whispers !

� Why should we all have to suffer from people who
� insist on having the combination of kids and cars ? 
    
    Well it reads that way to me! :^)

>>� Why should we all have to suffer from people who
>>� insist on having the combination of kids and cars ? 
>>    
>>    Well it reads that way to me! :^)
    
    I thought so too, but didn't bother with a reply.
    
    It surprised me that I didn't see a 'smiley' against this note.
    
    J.R.

Re: .36, .37


There are cars that are recognised as "family" cars.  I understand this to be 
that they may be safer to transport children than those that are not recognised 
as "family" cars.  Let officaldom turn their attention to laws governing the 
manufacture of this type of car, and let those who want to transport kids in
safety buy those cars. I would expect a "family" car to be safe to transport
kids.  I would never buy one though... 


Why should *ALL* cars have to suffer from "official" efforts to protect people
from themselves hysteria...think how boring driving would become if all cars
became "family" cars !!!!! 

>>There are cars that are recognised as "family" cars.  
    
    At the risk of working into a rat-hole, I would say that some
    cars are *advertised* as family cars.
    
    All cars with more than two seats should be OK as 'family cars',
    even more so if they happen to have four doors.
    
    I can see your point about vehicles not all being made to fit in
    with the 'least risk of danger' requirement that may apply to a
    so-called family car, but would not apply to a 'sports car'.
    This doesn't mean that safety-related issues should not be
    fitted to all cars where applicable, does it ?
    
    How about the Integrale ?  That has child-locks fitted to the
    rear doors, so is it a family car ?  Does it cause a problem
    if it is being used without a family in it ?
    
    I think your comments about people 'mixing cars and families'
    are off-base.  After all, you don't drive a 'no-compromise'
    type of vehicle which would be unduly affected by extra safety
    features that a Government may require to be fitted to cars, do you ?
    
    J.R.

My Mitsubishi SpaceWagon has electric windows all round and has a cut off
button which acts on ALL the windows except the driver's, none of them are
"one shot" closing, you have to LIFT a toggle to power them shut, and they 
don't work with the ignition off.

Also re .18; the garage that supplied the car fitted a combination lock
device on the hand brake.  This acts both as a security device, hand brake 
is locked in the on position if you set the combination, and stops little
fingers from playing with it.

Re the care of children; it's just not possible to protect you children
from all danger.  What would be a safe situation for an adult often contains
dangers that can strike a child with no warning.  Children trip over their feet
walking along perfectly level ground and often end up concused!  Small accidents
are a nutural way of learning how to cope with the world.  The best we can do 
is to try and prevent the more obvious and dangerous accidents from happening.

Mike B

    .40�  Children trip over their feet
    .40�walking along perfectly level ground and often end up concused!  
    
    Quite agree..... although there is an obvious answer :- cut their feet
    off and make them walk on their hands! 

    re .38
    
    Why should someone with a family be restricted to the kind of car they
    can chose from just for the selfishness and narrow mindedness of a few
    individuals who feel that the car they drive is not suitable for
    families !
    
    
    Shaun.

    
�    .40�  Children trip over their feet
�    .40�walking along perfectly level ground and often end up concused!  
    
    
    This happens to a lot of the adults I know, its called edelstoff.
    
    

    .40>> a combination lock device on the handbrake
    
    This sounds great both for safety and for anti-theft!  Can it be fitted
    to any car (eg, my Cavalier)?  If yes, more details please!
    
    Ken

    Re .43/
    
    Funny. They call it being drunk where I come from!
    
    Mark
    

    
>    Why should someone with a family be restricted to the kind of car they
>    can chose from just for the selfishness and narrow mindedness of a few
>    individuals who feel that the car they drive is not suitable for
>    families !
    
 	and look at it the other way, why should people without families be
	saddled with the cost of additional child saftey, and removal of 
	features-such as 1-touch electirc windows because parents let 2-year 
	olds play unsupervised in a car

	If we carry on like this we'll have men with red flags back soon, 
	because there are many hundreds of more deaths a year with children in 
	road accicents, than who catch their heads in electric windows.

	Maybe you should be able to have a "child saftey" option on cars, then
	those people who dislike child-locks, who like one-touch windows, and
	don't mind ordinary hand-breaks can satisfy their requirements, and 
	those that want aditional child-saftey features can choose to have them.
	This could include good child-seats etc. etc........

	Heather

This discussion brings the "WatchDog" program to mind,

I quote in a Scottish falsetto :-

"We're trying to ban children,  because other children might eat them and
 choke to death!"

"We're trying to ban cars, because small children might run into the road and
 get killed!"

Ridiculous exaggerations I know,  however if you have watched the program,  you
will know how reactionary it is!

I agree we should make things safe,  however we should not wrap children in
cotton wool safety,  the big bad world will come as quite a shock when they 
finally get let loose,  that wouldn't do anybody any good at all.

It's a nasty world,  people die,  get sick etc... or had we all forgotten that 
in our quest for scientifically derived immortality?

_Richard

    
    Re .47
    
    Good point.
    
    After all, if you over protect a child you can be almost certain that
    the day you don't over protect it, it'll jam its fingers in the toaster
    or play French revolutionaries with the electric windows.
    
    Of course, children should be kept in a soundproof steel box in the
    boot at all times while in the car!
    
    Mark

>> 	and look at it the other way, why should people without families be
>>	saddled with the cost of additional child saftey, and removal of 
>>	features-such as 1-touch electirc windows because parents let 2-year 
>>	olds play unsupervised in a car
>>
>>	If we carry on like this we'll have men with red flags back soon, 
>>	because there are many hundreds of more deaths a year with children in 
>>	road accicents, than who catch their heads in electric windows.
    
    If the simple addition of sensors into electric windows, which MIGHT
    save a life is thought of as regression, then I'm all for it.  I don't
    think the electric windows should be banned (I wouldn't want to be
    without mine !), but if something can be done to make their use safer,
    then why not ?
    
    If the argument of few accidents not warranting action is valid, then
    where would you draw the line ?  Up to 15 children a year die in the
    dentists chair, simply for the lack of emergency equipment, as the number
    is so little it is reasonable to let this continue, when for the purchase
    of no more than a heart monitor all would probably survive.
    
    To me if it is not restrictive, then I don't se why there should be a
    problem.
    
    
    Shaun.

Re .-1

But who pays?

For every worthy case of spending XX Millions extra on equipment,  the medical
profession can wheel out another good cause "Ah,  but if we had XXX Million,  we
could do this..... blah blah"

I am NOT cold hearted,  I do NOT want to die,  however I think society has
forgotten that we are not perfect, we develop faults and die.

I would absolutely hate somebody I know to die,  when more equipment or skill
would have saved them,  however it is totally *OBSCENE* that we sue doctors when
12 week premature babies die,  we should be grateful for every one that lives.

I'll get off my soap box now :-|

_Richard

Re: .39

>    I think your comments about people 'mixing cars and families'
>    are off-base.  


It is not my comments that are off base, it is your interpretation of my 
comments that makes them off base.

I refuse to defend your intepretation.



Re: others.

I don't think that all cars should be fitted with all available safety 
features, but I do think that those features should be available as options.
I see no reason why those of us who don't need or require those features should 
have to pay extra for them.


I don't think everyone should be penalised by those who chose to carry children
in cars that do not have recognised child safety features.  That is their
choice, and they shouldn't subsequently complain if their child is injured
because of their choice.    I personally wouldn't call a Tipo a "family" car. 

    � I personally wouldn't call a Tipo a "family" car. 
    
    Come on Jane, 
    
    Don't say you believe the Volvo ads! 
    
    Mark

    
>    Don't say you believe the Volvo ads! 
    
what's a volvo ?

:-)

    Re .51
    
    � I personally wouldn't call a Tipo a "family" car. 
    
    	What would you call it then? 
    
    	One of the features of the TIPO is that it's designed for
    	maximum interior space, especially headroom. It	seems an
    	ideal family car to me (apart from, arguably, its electric 
        windows).
    
    	Ian.

It's only got 3 doors....not the best solution for a "family" car...

ever tried to sort out a childseat, small reluctant child, and all it's 
paraphernalia (let alone more than one) in a 3 door car ?

    �It's only got 3 doors....not the best solution for a "family" car...
    
    Check your facts Jane. If its the Tipo we're talking about here, it
    has 5 doors and is certainly classed as a family car.
    
    Roy

    
    In fact I can't think of any current FIAT which ONLY comes in a 3 door
    form.
    
    Mark

Actually, if a car has one touch up, I would like it to have sensors.

According to What CAR, the Rover 800 has one touch up and down, on all
windows, including sunroof, and has a sensor that completely retracts
the window if there is an obstacle.

I don't think you can say fairer than that, kids or no kids.

Mark Jeffery.

>I don't think you can say fairer than that, kids or no kids.

	It would depend how much extra this cost

	Heather

�	It would depend how much extra this cost
    
    Heard on the radio that this device would have cost �20...
    
    I would expect this to be more like �2 if fitted to all
    cars that have electric windows.
    
    J.R.

I don't think that the cost would be much higher once economies of
scale come into play. If lack of sensors stops my car from having
one touch electric windows, then I'd like the sensors, and then
the one touch

Re .44

The hand-brake lock is a HETTEL 100 Security System and can be fitted
to most makes of vehicle.  The lock comes with an unique factory fitted
code.  I don't know any other supplier details.  Mine was fitted by:

Crighton's of Peterborough, Saab and Mitsubishi dealers
0733 571836

rgds,

Mike B.

	An 18 month kid is critically ill after being run over, when a 7 year
	old kid was playing in a car and released the handbreak.


	One of the only really safe things to do is lock the car if you ever
	leave it - especially if you know your kids (or anyone elses kids) are
	around.

	Heather