Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    Why? They seem to do a good enough job at the circuits themselves! :^)
    
    Mark

    Its not exactly thrilling stuff though is it........unless you're
    actually there and can appreciate the speed etc etc 
    
    Bazza
    

    B****x
    

    
    Re .2
    
    Well, that depends on what you're talking about.
    
    Personally I find cars going quick around ovals dull (NASCAR seems 
    especially contrived, somehow), but could anyone really describe the 
    final laps of the Indy 500 or the Gold Coast CART races this year dull?
    
    Also, what are you comparing it to? Dull compared with F1? HARDLY!
    Compared with the best F3/FF1600 race you've ever seen? Maybe, but no 
    form of racing sustains genuine battles for position over a sustained
    period.
    
    Bottom line: It's Ok. :^)
    
    Mark

    I am sure Scott who battled from last place to within .043 seconds of
    being the only Canadian to win at Indy, didn't find the race dull.
    
    I am no big fan of Indy but the last few laps at INDY were indeed
    racing at it's finest.  it is too bad though that this same level of
    competetiveness can not run through the entire 200 laps.
    
    As for F1 I am still enjoying it because NIGE is walking (running) away
    with the championship and Senna isn't            :-)
    regards,
    JP

It was a pretty bizarre Indy 500.  A new record was set for number of caution
laps.  I'm just glad that there were only three serious driver injuries
amongst the 13 drivers who crashed.  The combination of cold tires, cold
weather, and wind was apparently to blame.  You'd think, though, that after
the third crash or so the drivers would have started to be a bit more careful
going into turn 4 at the end of the caution periods.

It must have been really tricky out there.  Mario Andretti I expected to put
it into a wall at some point (if he couldn't find a safety vehicle or parked
car to run into), but competent, experienced drivers such as Rick Mears and
Emerson Fittipaldi had their cars get away from them, too.

It's a shame that Michael Andretti didn't finish after having run so well for
most of the race.  However, the broken belt on the fuel pump that put him out
makes you wonder--did he push his car just that much too hard?  Running a
229 mph lap with the race almost over and with a newly-developed engine in the
car doesn't seem a particularly wise move.  I think Al Unser, Sr.'s drive
was impressive.  After not having driven an Indycar for 2 years, he jumps in
the car, qualifies it in mid-field, and then finishes on the lead lap, in
spite of the engine being a Buick (great on power, lousy at lasting the whole
race).  At one point there near the end, he was seriously challenging to win
the race.  If he'd had more practice time in the car, I think he might have
got by his son and won the thing, but as it was, when he saw he wouldn't get
by Al, Jr., he concentrated on finishing the race and backed off.

Those last few laps almost made up for the demolition derby that preceded
them.  I haven't seen anything like it in Indycar racing since the Michegan
500 a couple of years back, where teammates Al Unser, Jr. and Bobby Rahal
passed each other for the lead 4 times on the final lap, with Little Al just
ahead at the finish.

--PSW

>         <<< Note 1773.2 by FORTY2::HOWARD "BIG FUN rolled into one" >>>
>
>    Its not exactly thrilling stuff though is it........unless you're
>    actually there and can appreciate the speed etc etc 
    
    Ahhhh, so that's why the audience look as if they're enjoying
    themselves... I suppose they need to take something to allow them to
    appreciate this ridiculous pastime. Is it included in the entry fee?
    
    Dougie
        

    

    Very good Dougie.
    You always pick on our notes don't you :^)
    
    Gary.

    Well, I didn't see the race, but you ought to see the news coverage and
    celebrating going on in New Mexico!
    
    Both big and little Al Unser are from Albuquerque.  
    
    Gil @AQO
    

    
    The most exciting part about the Indy 500 is the last lap, apart
    from that its boring.
    
    Oh, one other thing I like. The on board camera looking at the
    driver with the statistics underneath showing speed, RPM and the
    Gs on the driver through the bends.
    
    JN.

    I still think that its boring compared to F1,F2,F3,Fn,Touring cars,
    rallying, Stock cars, grannies on their three wheelers !!
    
    Bazza
    (hear hear Gary)
    

    
    Re .10 and .11
    
    Ok, you think it's boring. So what? They get tens of thousands (more I
    think) of people in the door and millions watching on TV. Can all those
    people enjoy being bored?
    
    There's a lot that's different between European and Stateside racing
    and much of it is not to be applauded. However, even if the accusation
    of contrived can be levelled at their racing, I can't believe that
    boring can be.
    
    To Jeff: So only the last lap of Indy car racing is exciting, that's a
    lot more than you can say for F1. Beyond the first corner it's parade
    lap time.
    
    Mark

    Contrived Mark ? Meaning what ?

    
    Meaning they like to put the pace car out at the slightest provocation
    (especially in NASCAR, which I just can't comprehend at all!) to ensure
    that no-one can build up too healthy a lead.
    
    It makes for a good spectacle (and possibly keeps the cost down a bit
    as it's not worth building a hyper fast car, which'll be caught at
    every yellow, but that's only relative), but as I say could be accused
    of being a little contrived.
    
    Mark

    In the past two years or so, the Indycar races held at Phoenix. AZ and
    Nazereth, PA - both 1 mile ovals - have been excellent. The Phoenix
    race this year was won in a walk by Rahal, but the battle for 2-7
    places was super - and they showed it on tv rather than the Rahal
    runaway. While the speeds aren't quite as high as Indy (~170 mph) the
    racing on these ovals is excellent. I expect that the new race this
    year at New Hampshire Intl Speedway will be the same.
    
    I love F1. The technology makes it interesting. But let's face it,
    there hasn't been a good race in ages. Sometimes it's fun to watch them
    qualify, but the race itself is over after the first turn. So sad.
    
    I watched this year's Indy with a fellow who's driven there a few
    times. He was Rookie of the Year in '88. He says it isn't boiring at
    all.
    
    Paul
    

A question to those of you outside the U.S. who watched the Indy 500:

Who did the TV coverage?  In the U.S., an outfit called Ohlmeyer productions
has exclusive license to produce the TV coverage for the Indycar events.
The coverage has two annoying aspects:  (1) Paul Page (a commentator with
terminal brain understeer) and Sam Posey (an ex-Indycar driver who still
thinks his knowledge of racing technology is current, but unfortunately it
isn't), and (2) an annoying tendency, when something exciting's going on on the
track, to cut to shots of the driver's wife looking all tense and nervous in
pit lane.  If this was the coverage that you got, you have my sympathy.

--PSW

    
    We get the ABC coverage with the same people via Sky Sports (so while
    you're watching adverts, we sometimes get Tiff Needell, Nigel Roebuck
    and the Boss of Lola giving their comments).
    
    I can't get over the fact that one of the commentators (Bobby Unser?)
    sounds _JUST_ like Homer Simpson's drunken friend! It's even more
    noticeable when you switch from one to the other, as I did on Sunday.
    
    Paul Page and Sam Posey sound _EXACTLY_ like Murray Walker and James
    Hunt from .16's description, but the Beeb's pairing, in reality, are 
    infinitely better.
    
    Mark
    
    PS I agree about the drivers' wives shots. I must admit that, while I
    felt a twinge for Michael Andretti, it was worth him breaking down just
    to see his wife looking miserable! :^) What a witch! 

Not being a satalite viewer, I never get to see CART or the Indi, but by 
chance TVS had last year's Pheonix 200 on last Saturday night at about 3AM 
(real late night space filler...)

Anyway, the race looked QUITE interesting and I could cope with it until
the first incident..... Car looses it in turn 2 and scrapes the barrier.

45 seconds later, nobody has done anything about moving the debris. Seemed like
everyone thought that this was a wonderful time to have a coffee and a smoke!!
Fine, they could not continue to race while the car was on the track, but nobody
seemed in much of a hurry to move it.

And it goes on like this. The race gets interesting, and then a yellow!!
By the end of the race, 20% of the laps have been covered under the yellow.

Damn, I'm getting annoyed with this..... But better was to come, the usual 
dash for the line was developing in the late stages of the race, and then
someone looses his sump at the entrance to the pit lane, and OUT COMES THE
YELLOW AGAIN..... and they keep it out to end the race!!!!

I see nothing wrong with oval racing. It can be interesting, and given the
chance I'd watch it, but full course Yellows are very annoying. The thought 
of introducing them to F1 annoys me, it will be done for TV rather than the 
needs of the sport.


Maybe I'm just a cynic, but i simply cannot accept the number of NBA games that
are won with a 3 pointer with 2 seconds to go, or the number of NFL games that
are won by field goal in the last 15 seconds..... It is managed for TV

That's not what I want from motorsport.....

(maybe we should be sending this to Max Moseley rather than preaching to
the converted here...)

Terry

    Given that a real big crash is going to put crap all over that show on
    an oval , it makes sense to me for a full course yellow. I wouldn't
    fancy trying to pick up the bits with x number of car screeming round
    the track. Even an oil spill needs clearing , the same applies. But
    Most of the oval racing I've seen, the accidents look staged. A lot of
    the time a car comes out of turn x turns hard right and takes out x
    number of cars with him. How often does that happen when the race is
    getting intresting? What is it? Do people nod off to sleep?. The other
    thing is it never seems to be the same drivers, Do they pick so many
    driver per race to take a dive as it were.
    
    As for pace cars in F1, I think there is a place for them but only in
    very limited circumstances. I think it is justifiable to use a pace car
    in something like the mess on the straight at the Austrailian last
    year. With Poor conditions like there was, many cars into the wall, it
    was dangerous. Thats about it though.  Having said that it's not fair
    to compair indy with F1 ,They might look simular but that is where it
    stops.

>>    As for pace cars in F1, I think there is a place for them but only in
>>    very limited circumstances. I think it is justifiable to use a pace car
>>    in something like the mess on the straight at the Austrailian last
>>    year. With Poor conditions like there was, many cars into the wall, it
>>    was dangerous. Thats about it though.
    
    I would disagree here.  The race had to be stopped not just slowed down
    while the debris was cleared away.  The conditions were far too
    dangerous to continue, as was adequetly demonstrated by the number of
    incidents that occured, as soon as the pace car would have left the
    carnage would start again.
    
    Pace cars a Le Mans have also proved problematic for some of the cars,
    as the pace required to be safe meant that the engines were overheating
    due to the lack of cool air (readily available in excess of 100mph), and
    oiling up due to the labouring engine revs.
    
    I think that stopping and restarting the race would be less detremental
    to the machinery, and detract nothing from the viewing appeal (whats
    more interesting, watching cars crawling round the track, or relining
    up on the grid ready for the restart - dead heat ?)
    
    
    Shaun.
    

    
    Agreed, in the circumstances of a crash on an oval it is not possible
    to continue racing regardless. The other cars in the field have to be
    slowed or stopped.
    I would prefer to see a restart with cumlative timing counting towards 
    the final result, but then again I have enjoyed watching the TT 
    motor cycle race, where the compeditors are let off in two's at 10
    second intervals... Makes for some very interesting racing!
    
    Given the highly delicate character of today's F1 machinary, I suspect 
    that a pace car late in the race could cause more mechanical problems than 
    a restart.
    
    Are we all agreed that watching cars circulating behind a pace car
    is not particularly interesting?
    
    
    Terry
    

    
    The thing to be said in favour of pace cars is that it breaks a race up
    a lot less than stopping a race completely. Anyone who's been to a
    meeting where a race is stopped will know it takes an age to restart a
    race, whereas with the pace car, once the danger is past the cars are
    simply released to continue on their way.
    
    It works well in long races (eg Sportscar races), but in the case of a 
    GP (especially as laps under the pace car are to be nullified and
    therefore the cars still 'logically' at the gaps before the pace car
    came out) it doesn't seem such a bright idea. If pace cars are used
    wisely, they can prevent a race being totally broken up. The proposals
    for F1 seem to be a crazy mix of the American norm (where a crisp
    packet on the track brings out the pace car) and the need to
    occasionally bring the race under the organiser's control.
    
    Mark

RE: .27 (ABC TV coverage)

The guy who sounds like Homer Simpson's drunken friend is probably Bobby
Unser.  I don't watch The Simpsons, so I can't say for sure, but Bobby Unser
does have a distinctive, twangy, Midwestern American accent.  Of the Ohlmeyer
announcing crowd (Page, Posey, Unser), he's the only one who consistently
says anything intelligent.  Bobby is Al Unser's brother, and was a top-notch
Indycar driver and Indy 500 champion (twice, I think) in his own right before
bad eyesight forced his retirement from competitive racing.  He drove F1
a couple of times in the early 1970s (so did Sam Posey).  He's also a good
mechanic and is responsible for several chassis innovations (most notably the
wicker bail system for quickly trimming the rear wings of Indycars during pit
stops).


RE: .18 (full-course yellows)

Unfortunately, there is no viable alternative to a full-course yellow in
Indycar racing on the oval tracks.  The cars do 180-plus MPH on the 1-mile
ovals, such as Phoenix, Milwaukee, and Nazareth, and they do 200-plus on the
2-mile oval at Michegan and over 220 on the 2-1/2 mile Indianapolis oval.
At those speeds, lap times on the oval tracks are 40 seconds or under.
There is no way to safely clean up the track except a full-course yellow with
a pace car or to red-flag the race and restart it.  The frequency of these
occurrances would make red-flagging really bad.  Full-course yellow is the
lesser of the two evils.

I personally don't care much for oval track racing precisely because of this.
I much prefer the Indycar races run on street circuits or permanent road
courses.  These are run much more like F1--most incidents can be handled with
local cautions only.  I think CART calls too many full-course yellows on the
street and road circuits, but then again, you have the Andretti clan out there.
Last year, a car spun and stalled in a bad corner at one of the street circuit
races.  One of the safety vehicles was dispatched, there were waving yellow
flags displayed two turns preceding the turn where the incident happened,
and the white-flag-and-cross (safety vehicle on the track) was on display
both at the corners preceding the incident and at the start/finish line.
Several drivers made it around the stalled car slowly and carefully, then
Mario Andretti came through the turn at racing speed, was going too fast
to take a tighter line, and rammed the back of the safety truck, which had
just attached a tow rope to the stalled car.  About half a lap later, his
son Michael did the same thing, swerved to avoid his father's car, and hit
the other stalled car in the back.  A few years earlier, Mario was involved
in a similar incident, where a car had broken down on the course and was
pulled out of the racing line (although still on the track).  After several
laps, the corner workers stopped waving yellow flags, since the now-abandoned
car was not a safety hazard and had been there for a while.  Sure enough,
Mario forgot it was there and rear-ended it.  Some say that CART stands for
"Can Andrettis Race Tactfully".

--PSW

    Bobby Unser won Indy three times.
    His accent is New Mexican.
    Watch for his son Robby to move into IndyCar (CART) racing within the
    next few seasons.
    

Didn't Bobby Unser also hold the Pike Peaks Hillclimb record a few times?

Including once in one of the Audi Quattros?

Dave

    
    Re .25
    
    Yes, he has had tremendous success at Pike's Peak, as has the entire
    Unser family.  Bobby's involvement with Audi also resulted in, I
    believe, a closed course world speed record for a production sedan.
    
    Ifind it interesting that those who have been most successful at Indy
    have strong roots in dirt racing...
    
      Foyt with his champ car experience on dirt ovals.
      The Unsers with their strong family success at Pikes Peak.  
      Mears, who started competing in off road racing like the Baja 1000.
    
    - Nate

(this is a continuation of the discussions of IndyCar racing that had been 
taking place in the 1993 F1 note (note 1830).

RE: 1830.238

>    .235�There is also talk of CART going to 3.5L normally-aspirated engines(�
>    .235�and there being less fuel stops.  This could become a competing 
>series
>    .235�predominantly European F1 series and Bernie Ecclestone is supposedly 
>a
>    .235�supporter of this direction.
>    
>    3500cc n-a engines (good ones) produce 700+bhp. CART and F1 cars still
>    have a big gap: weight. 
>    
>    Minimum weight in CART is 750kg
>    Minimum weight in F1   is 500kg

CART = Championship Auto Racing Teams, the "championship" in question being 
IndyCars.  It started as the IndyCar equivalent of FOCA (Formula One 
Constructor's Association).  USAC (United States Auto Club) used to be the 
sanctioning body for all IndyCar racing.  Just as there were FISA/FOCA disputes 
over rules and venues, the IndyCar teams had a major disagreement over rules 
with USAC.  The teams formed CART and started sanctioning their own races.  
After a few years, they had control of the entire IndyCar championship except 
the Indianapolis 500 itself, which to this day is still USAC-sanctioned.

CART has now adopted the name IndyCar, Inc. for its marketing arm and race 
sanctioning body.

CART has recently been involved in a bit of a tiff with FISA over the expansion 
of IndyCar racing outside North America.  FISA denied permission for CART to 
sanction the Gold Coast IndyCar race in Australia, but CART went ahead anyway. 
FISA have threatened to bar any drivers participating in the Gold Coast race 
from racing in FISA-sanctioned events.  Now that Michael Andretti (who has 
raced in both Gold Coast Indy events) is moving to F1, we'll see if they carry 
through on the threat.

Ecclestone and Balestre were maneuvering behind the scenes to undermine CART.  
To this end, they've been talking to Tony George, the director of Indianapolis 
Motor Speedway, about several possiblities, including a world oval open-wheel 
racing series using 3.5l aspros, with the Indy 500 as one of its races.  That 
would leave CART and the IndyCars high and dry.  In the Max Moseley era, there 
seems to have been some detante.

The main reason for the extra weight in IndyCars is endurance:  a F1 car is not 
built to last a 500 mile race at sustained speeds in excess of 210 mph.

--PSW