Conference terri::cars_uk

    The 'Cobra' was an Americanised (V8) version of the AC Ace (All
    British) which had various power plants including Bristol 2Ltr (nee
    BMW!) and even a Ford Zephyr 6 cyl with Raymond Mays conversion - cross
    flow head with 6 exhausts (sounded lurvly). The AC Cobra was available
    through the 60's at least in 4.7ltr and 7.0ltr form, don't know the
    exact years but an 'F (67/68) would be right. 
    
    I nearly owned one but couldn't afford the insurance, some things never
    change! :-(
    
    Nigel 

    
    	Hmmmmm,
    		Could well have been an original then. I would have thought
    	that an original would be extremely rare to have on the road. It 
    	must be worth quite a few bob. It was in pristine condition and the
        guy driving it wasn't just poodling along. I caught up to him at a 
    	roundabout and he gave it some serious welly on the exit.
    
    	Tony.

    They aren't that rare, and they do seem to be used in Historic
    competition events. As you can still get the spares or even a new one
    if you can afford it, that might explain! Before you ask the obvious, I
    believe a director of AC cars has started producing brand new Cobras
    using original (but unused) chassis (or maybe just chassis numbers).
    
    I recollect that these cars cost around 75K or maybe more. There isn't
    an endless supply so hurry! ;-)
    
    Nigel
    

	It could well have been a replica. But anyhow, they are beautiful
	things. And *FAST*.

	There is more discussion of Cobras in Musclecars notesconference
	(hit KP7).

	- Jyri -	

    If as you say you saw it around Mildenhall then chances are that it may
    well be original. Some of the aircrew/pilots at Mildenhall and
    Lakenheath do bring over Vehicles over from the US. But to have that
    plate makes that idea a bit shakey, as a posting is only for 2-3 years.
    Either someone likes it very much or, it was sold on.
    
    But on the same sort of track it may well be a plastic. Ram or L.R.
    Roadsters, whatever name they wish go by these days are only just down
    the road in the Newmarket area. They are better know for an AC replica
    and a D type replica. If you know the AC well it is easyer to spot a LR
    replica. It has slightly wider rear end to accomadate a rover axle. The
    LR version is one of the better ones. It looks real enough and is
    designed to take a V8 rover or I think a chevey 355 V8. It would not
    supprise me if it was , LR do all the badges too but don't fit them.
    
    Either way the look and sound wonderfull.
    
    
    Garry
     

    ...I believe the "COBRA" part of the AC COBRA pertains to the Cobra
    (US) tuning company, who sourced mainly Ford V8's, latterly the
    427 cu.in., & added their own magic & rockerbox covers. Correct me if
    I'm wrong but I believe it was Cobra who hunted down the AC Ace as a
    suitable vehicle for its engine, so that it could target the US market
    with a Supercar that would also go round bends. They went back into
    production about 3 years ago, I didnt know they are still making them
    though.
    
    There are some very fine plastic replicas around as well. (not really
    kits). 

	Wasn't it an american racing man called Carroll Shelby who
	was responsible for the Cobra. The US wanted british style
	sports cars but with more power. Shelby arranged with AC
	for them to produce a suitable chassis based upon their Ace
	model and then fitted engines (US V8s into them). Cars 
	destined for the US market (most were) were shipped without
	engines/gearboxes and these were fitted out there, but there
	were british spec ones too.

	Original production was 60s, about 64-68 i'd guess, but the
	car has been remanufactured for some years now by AC with
	minor modifications to meet current regs. There are also
	several kits of varying quality. The original cars all had
	alloy bodywork over a spaceframe chassis.

	A memorable story regarding the Cobra is the archetypal 'little
	old lady' much loved by car salesmen ie. the person who always
	owned the car previously. Well there really was a little old
	lady who bought a Cobra way back in '65 and only ever drove it
	to the shops (presumably with handbag hanging on the choke).
	This made the news a few years back when she still had it and
	appeared on television.

	-John

>>	A memorable story regarding the Cobra is the archetypal 'little
>>	old lady' much loved by car salesmen ie. the person who always
>>	owned the car previously. Well there really was a little old
>>	lady who bought a Cobra way back in '65 and only ever drove it
>>	to the shops (presumably with handbag hanging on the choke).
>>	This made the news a few years back when she still had it and
>>	appeared on television.
    
    This was on a programme called 'The Motor Show' presented by Chris
    Goffey.
    
    She was 90 when she was interviewed, and still owned and drove the
    Cobra.  She recalled an incident a year or so prior to the interview
    when she had been stopped for speeding (doing 95mph in a 60mph area). 
    When the officer approached the car, and saw the lady behind the wheel
    he burst into hysterics, and let her off, saying that his boss would
    never beleive him !
    
    Shaun.

    
    Any regular visitors to Thruxton will know of the 'little old lady' who
    drives a pristine DB5. Such a waste, but at least she looks after the 
    car.
    
    Mark

The first Cobras were made in 1962, the last...hard to say. Most likely 1965,
but the story isn't that simple as the US connection went away then but the
AC company still made a few in the UK.

Sometime later, Autokraft started making new ones using the old body bucks
bought from AC. Later still, AC sold everything to Autokraft (spares etc.).
And later still Ford bought controling interest in  Autokraft. As far as I
know that is still the situation. Current production uses 5 liter HO Ford
engines. Factory is located in the indsutrial estate at Brooklands.

Early Cobras used 260 ci Ford engines, then 289 ci and finally 427 (some
reportedly used 428 engines which were less powerful and much cheaper than
the 427 NASCAR units). 

Total production of the orginal versions was around 1000.

Early cars used a modified ACE chassis (almost exactly the same, in fact).
As power increased, stiffer springs, stronger frame tubes etc. were used.
When the 427 was born, a whole new chassis was designed (with the help of
Ford's computer bods) which followed the general design of the earlier car
but had coil springs, heavier components etc. The last (original) cars made
in the UK used the later chassis with the smaller 289 engine. Current
production uses this same chassis, lengthened a bit.

Signed,

Two_AC_owner_but_sadly_neither_are_Cobras

	�  -< Some facts to go with the myths >-
    
    I think the Cobra's a car which really is all about it's myths. Sure,
    it's a lovely car, but what makes it really great are all the stories 
    surrounding it.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Just to be obtuse, I love the Daytona coup�s. Do you know anything
    about their history?
    

    Do you mean FERRARI Daytona ? ;-)
    NR

    
    No, they built some hardtop Cobras to race (I think) at Daytona (I
    guess _that's_ why they're known as Daytona Coup�s).
    
    Mark
    
    PS Although if you've got a Ferrari Daytona you no longer want, I'll
    take it off your hands! :^)

	It may be another myth but I am sure as I can be that it was the
Cobra which was partly responsible for the 70mph limit being introduced
on British motorways. Originally there was no limit but it was reported in
Parliament that Shelby Cobras were being tested at night on the
M1(?) at astronomic speeds and moves were started which culminated in
the 70mph limit being introduced.

    
    Another story tells it as the 150 mph E-Type being the bringer of the
    70 mph limit - Try telling the 100 mph boys on the M3 that there's a 
    70 mph limit, though!
    
    Mark

    Actually it was Aston Martin's from the Newport Pagnell factory.......
    
    JfK

    Another 'myth' to support the 70mph limit theory, a 7 ltr Cobra was
    supposed to have 't' boned another car (some say a police car) at some
    impossible speed, killing all concerned. This too was supposed to be a
    'test' run. Don't know how true tho'.
    
    What is true however, the AC Cobra was never a great handling car,
    especially in the wet. I drove in the 750MC six hour race in '72 at
    Thruxton, in a 'Special Saloon' Cooper S. I was embarrassed to be
    overtaking all manner of 'supercars', both on acceleration and sheer
    road holding. It rained for a while, and the Cobras lap times were
    pathetic. But, in a straight line........ummm!
    
    NR

    .11�    PS Just to be obtuse, I love the Daytona coup�s. Do you know anything
    .11�    about their history?
    
    Mark, the Daytona coupes were the natural evolution of the Shelby
    Cobras in the WSCC. The roadsters were OK in rallying and when racing
    on 'slow' circuits. But for WSCC circuits (LeMans, Daytona, Sebring,
    Monza, ...) they needed better aerodynamics. Shelby used hardtops for a
    while but finally decided to use the big tubular ladder chassis, the
    coil springs suspension and the 427 engine in a car designed for high
    speed. Hence the Daytona coupes.
    
    Their life was relatively short for the simple reason that Ford were
    trying to build a similar car of their own: the GT40. After a couple of
    years without significant results Ford asked Caroll Shelby to manage
    the Le Mans winning team. The GT40 MkII meant the end of the Daytonas.

    It really is the stories (and myths) about Cobra that give the make
    it's mystic.
    
    The Daytona coupes were Shelby's answer to the Ferrari 250 GTO. Shelby
    wanted a car with cleaner aero to go head to head with Ferrari in 1965.
    Peter Brock penned the car. After a season long battle, the Daytona's
    won the championship for Cobra in '65. There were very few made - I
    don't  remember the exact number but I believe that it was less than
    10. 
    
    There is a gem of a book about this time of racing. It's called "The
    Cobra-Ferrari Wars". The fellow who wrote it is a lawyer by trade and
    wrote the book twice, since the first one didn't please him. The book
    uses interviews of everyone - Cobra & Ferrari - who had anything to do
    with these cars. It is lavishly produced and full of rare photos that
    have seldom or never appeared in print. Warning: it ain't cheap. $100.
    But it is worth it since it is a limited printing and one of the finest
    racing car books I own.
    
    Paul
    
    P.S. There was an unfinished "King Cobra" coupe that was abandoned by
    Shelby in 1965/6 when Ford wanted him for their GT40 program. This
    one-of-a-kind car was purchased by a fellow in Kansas City and
    fininshed according to the plans and the notes from Shelby. I saw the
    car a few years ago and it was a monster.

In the early 60's I was on a pit crew at Sebring for the 12 hour race. (car
was a Sunbeam Harrington Le Mans...whole other story about that) Anyway,
Shelby ran at least two cars...one was a 289ci powered car, driven by Phil
Hill, and the other was supposedly a 427ci car driven by Ken Miles. Both
broke and didn't finish. Not before they showed Enzo's finest the way of
the future, though. I vivdly remember Phil Hill accelerating up the start/
finish straight, side by side with the fastest Ferrari, looking over with
a wicked grin on his face, shifting into top and pulling away. Magic!

    The *authentic Cobra* was made by Carroll Shelby between 1962 and 1967.
    1002 were made.  75 had 260 cubic inch engines, almost 600 had the 289 
    cubic inch engines and the others were 427 and 428 cubic inch monsters 
    but all had highly modified chassis and suspension.  Shelby originally
    wanted to build a car to compete with Corvettes and later decided to
    take on Enzo.  In 1964 six *Daytona Coupes* were built with coupe bodies 
    to extend the top speed and they finished second in the 1964 manufacturers
    championship and won it in 1965.  The 427 Cobras started production in
    1965 but did not do well in FIA sports car competition.  A 427 SC was
    timed from 0 to 60 mph in 3.3 seconds and 0 to 100 mph back to 0 in 14.5 
    seconds.  Now, of course, many shops are building replicas which can be
    purchased in finished or kit form.  Some of the new ones are as good or
    better than the originals, but a replica will cost you 25 to  55
    thousand dollars in the States while the original 289's are 250,000 -
    up and the 427's go up over 500,000.
    
    Cheers,
    Bob   
    

    
    	Anyone see Top Gear last night? Good shots of a few Cobras
    	bombing round Castle Combe + Tiff Needell knocking one onto
    	the grass with his GT40...
    
    	Andy.

Probably no one really cares but just to keep the record/myth going, here are
some more facts on Cobras.

Coupes

	There were 6 Daytona coupes, 1 AC Coupe (designed and built at the AC
        factory that proved to be faster than the Daytona's), 1 Willment Racing
        Coupe (built by AC and bodied by Frua [I think]) and 1 completed in
        1981 by Pete Brock himself (again, I'm a little fuzzy on the details of
        this one but it does exist). These last three cars are different
        looking than the Daytona's but are mechanically pretty much the same.

        I believe all of the coupes still exist.

260/289 Production

	There were actually 3 groups of these cars. 

   Group #1 1962-1964, all built under contract to Shelby America

	  -  75 260ci engine, 74 to US, 1 kept by AC
	  -  51 289ci engine with early chassis/steering
	  - 460 289ci engine with rack and pinion steering
	  -   3 kept in UK for racing
	  -   1 chassis sent to Turin for ?
	  -   2 chassis sent to Milan for coupe body

        Total = 592

	  - of the 592, 24 cars were desiginated 'racing cars'

   Group #2 1963-1966, all UK built

	  -  60 289ci engine, 2 went to the US, the rest to the UK and other
             countires

	Total =  60

   Group #3 1966-1969, called AC 289, all built in UK on 427 chassis

	  -  27 289ci engine, 3 went to US, last 2 were 'incomplete'
	  -   1 never recorded as completed

	Total =  27

	Grand Total 260/289 = 679	

427/428 Production

   1964-1966

	   - 306 complete cars
	   -  10 chassis

	Total =  306 

Grand Total 260/289/427/428, 1962-1969, completed by factory = 985



Suspension/chassis

Again, there were essentially 3 different combinations.

   Group #1, first 126 cars, minor modifications from 6 cylinder cars

	- frame was same as last 6 cylinder cars
	- rear track 1 inch wider than 6 cylinder
	- front leaf spring 2 inches wider than 6, rear the same as 6 in spite 
	  of wider track, extra leaf, front and rear (extra front leafs were a 
          option on Bristol/AC engined 6 cylinder cars and standard on Zepher)
	- disk brakes front/rear (6 cylinder cars were disk/drum), first car
	  had in-board brakes but all others were out-board
	- steering was worm/sector tyep, exactly the same as 6 cylinder
	- differential mounting was 'floating' like the Aceca coupes,
          strengthened, diff. was limited slip type

   Group #2, rest of 289 cars before 427 production

	- biggest change was rack and pinion steering, using modified MGB 
          components
	- various strengthing bits and pieces were added to the chassis

   Group #3, all 427/428 cars and last UK 289 cars

	- larger frame tubes, spaced further apart
	- coil springs, front and back, double wishbones
	
All the above, except coupe information, taken from 'Original AC ACE & COBRA' 
by Rinsey Mills, 1990

    
    Re .23
    
    Well I like facts to go with the myths! :^)
    
    What about the model which replaced the Cobra? Was it Frua designed?
    
    What was it called?
    
    Mark

    Wasn't it called 'AC 427'? or summat like that....
    NR

>    Wasn't it called 'AC 427'? or summat like that....

Close, it was AC 428! They made coupes and rag tops....very few of the latter.
Total production was something like 60 units (no reference material with me
today).

Yes, Frua designed and built the bodies. The chassis were modified 427 Cobra
units left over when Shelby pulled the plug. They looked similar to Maserati's 
by the same builder. Unfortunately the cars were rust traps and restoration
is very expensive. Performance was in the 'super car' category with 150mph
available. In fact, given the years (late 1960's) they were one of the first
non-racing super cars. I think they all came with automatic transmissions.

Correction to an earlier 'fact'. The 1981 Daytona Coupe put together by Pete
Brock was on a 427 chassis/engine, not a 289 combination.

>Close, it was AC 428! They made coupes and rag tops....very few of the latter.
>Total production was something like 60 units (no reference material with me
>today).

Checked it out last night. 29 convertibles and 51 coupes were made from 
1967-1973.

    .26�                                 They looked similar to Maserati's 
    .26�by the same builder.
    
    Maserati Mistral
    
    Thanks for all the data on the snakes, Dick !

>Sometime later, Autokraft started making new ones using the old body bucks
>bought from AC. Later still, AC sold everything to Autokraft (spares etc.).
>And later still Ford bought controling interest in  Autokraft. As far as I
>know that is still the situation. Current production uses 5 liter HO Ford
>engines. Factory is located in the indsutrial estate at Brooklands.

    Had a chance to take a long close up look at one of these on Saturday.
    
    Very nice looking car, deep metallic blue, sounded gorgeous when it
    started. THis one was made in '89.
    
    How much would such a beast cost ??
    
    Rich

	Re .14

	It seems that my memory was correct... In today's Daily Express there
is a picture of a Cobra with the following article:-

	The Cobra sports car roared back yesterday.
	Thirty years ago the first model caused a
	sensation by racing along the M1 at 196 mph,
	leading to questions in Parliament. The 1990s
	version, looking very much the same, is still
	handbuilt by Britain's oldest car manufacturer.


	I am not sure why they chose today to report this...

    There has been mention in AUTO EXPRESS this week of the "DAX" look
    alike to the cobra.  If memory serves, it has two varients one with a
    Rover V8, and the other with a 7.5 litre GM mill....
    
    Looked good and priced around �35000...
    
    Bob

    Caroll Shelby is definitely producing a batch of 47 new Cobra's. Shelby
    indicated that the 47 chassis numbers had been registered in the 427
    days.
    
    While the 47 Cobs will be built to 1992 standards they will not have to
    comply (because they are 60's cars). No exhaust catalysers, no roll
    bars, ... just pure 60's Cobra.
    
    Price: 	500K$ for basic car, list of extras ...

    There's a small article in today's Telegraph too. Apparently �100K and
    0-100 in 10 seconds.
    
    Laurie.