Conference terri::cars_uk

    My father used to throw lit newspapers out of his window to stop people
    following him too close - it worked but granted it wasn't the most
    responsible thing to do!

	The best way to get your own back on people like that is to slow 
	down to slightly faster than the car that you are overtaking.

	You should see peoples faces when you eventually let them pass.

Gordon. (Who enjoys winding up crap drivers)

Actually, I remember a case here in NZ early last year when a traffic
"confrontation" resulted in homicide. I had a friend who was beaten up
after causing a minor accident with a car filled with 3 youths. Nothing
too serious, but disturbing none-the-less.

    For me, it depends on my mood. sometimes I remain really mellow, and
    others I go ape-shit. I think it depends on how much pressure I'm
    under to get where I'm going. I usually derive a lot of pleasure from
    winding these people up, some people here can get *very* excited!
    
    Laurie.

    I to wish I could remain calmer when surrounded by f***ing idiots.
    
    Only last night some pl*nker in a Grandad pulled out in front of me at
    a roundabout� He looked a ``bit'' supprised when I droped down into
    first, accelerated at, and then overtook him.
    
    	Rik
    
    
    �Must have thought Gran had just done her shopping as I had just come
    out of Sainsburys in my Civic.

I get this a lot (tailgating).  There is a significant number of peeps out
there who think Nova=slow.....they're the ones who get this funny sort of
startled look on their faces when I eventually get a clear run... 

Usually they are the 1.6/1.8 brigade who think they drive the ultimate in
fast cars...

I just keep enough room in front of me to cater for their braking distance as 
well as mine...


My Nova "only" has the same performance as an Astra 2.0 GSI....hehehe :-)

    
    I have a very mellow attitude to motorway driving, as I cruise in the
    slow lane at 60mph in my Mini!  It's awfully relaxed, you just sit
    there watching the world zoom by in the other two lanes.
    
    I agree with Mr. Geddes though the best way to p*ss off the fast lane
    nutters (not that I get into the fast much anyway), is to drive just
    slightly faster than the car your overtaking.
    
    If it's at night you can always have fun lining up your mirrors so that
    they shine his headlamps straight back at them!
    
    Matt.

    I usually find that it's easier in the long run to pull over to
    let the tailgater past. I find not doing so is a dangerous distraction.
    
    Sometimes there is good reason not to. The solution is to give my
    windscreen a really good wash/wipe. The resulting spray is usually
    enough for the car behind to get the hint!

A friend who was actually bumped by a tailgater resorted to throwing boiled 
sweets out of the sunroof, resulting in a cracked windscreen for mr tailgater.
	Mind you it was after being bumped 4-5 times over 4 miles on the M25!


		Tim

	I try very hard not to get upset/angry by other people's actions in
	cars.  What makes a safer driver, I think, is attitude.  However, I've
	not been completely successful.  If I do let myself get annoyed, then
	whatever situation I'm into gets worse.  Consider the scenario where 
	someone cuts me up and I get irritated, so I follow close looking for
	the overtake (you have to snuggle up before bends so that you give 
	yourself a good overtaking window).  This irritates the person further
	who starts slowing down, weaving etc.  Where I manage to control my
	temper (think calm thoughts: my this is a cool car, what a long bonnet,
	its Star Trek tonight) the situation evaporates.  I might be miffed but
	not wound up.

	What's the difference?  Mood mainly.

	Dave

    
    
    There's an easy answer to the tailgater problem, slow down as stated
    before, then pull over and think evil thoughts like: "At least it's
    gonna be them that's pulled up by the police in about three miles and
    not me"...
    
    One point to note on this thing is that I've been driving a knackered,
    B-reg VW Santana around for over a year now (55K last year, mostly
    motorway speeds), which is a fair sized, if underpowered car, that can
    just about keep out of hassles (i.e. bullying by other drivers) on the
    motorway.  However, it recently blew up (all will be revealed in a
    question to be entered soon!!), and I've been driving a Metro 1.0 City,
    which you can't really compare to the Santana.  It's suprising how much
    more hassle you have (or maybe it isn't) in everyday driving just
    because you're in a smaller car and other drivers just *try* to push
    you out of the way/pull in front of you/other things that really get on
    your nerves.
    
    Chris.

I used to commute daily over 60 miles of motorway, including 30 miles or
so of the M25. I had to learn how to relax, and not get upset or annoyed by
other drivers' actions, as if I did I would either kill myself or someone
else.

That's where I learned on a congested motorway the inside lane is usually
quickest....

Peter.

    
    The best way to get rid of tailgaters (if not on the motorway) is to
    slow down steadily and if they do not pass, then just stop. Hopefully
    they will pass. If they get out to talk to you 
    
    1. Say "I was waiting for you to pass" or
    2. Feign that you are one can short of a sixpack.
    
    Either way they will go on.
    
    If at anytime they drive into your boot, and you are shaken then stop, 
    pull them over, take their insurance details, go to the Police and 
    hospital. At the hospital claim whiplash (or whatever), get a collar and 
    then make a claim against the driver. Courts automatically dole out 10K +
    
    They won't mess with people after that due to lack of a car.
    
    Jules

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    I had  a  "mate" who rode a bike who used to keep old sparkplugs in his
    pocket.  Leave on in the airstream, and one dead radiator.  Seems a bit
    drastic,  but I've heard stories (from one guy who claimed to have done
    it)  of  people  who get kicks from running motorcyclists off the road.

    Actually  saw  a taxi in London do that one day.  Hit a motorcyclist on
    purpose.

    I've personally   got  no  problem  with  being  overtaken,  but  being
    tailgated  at  220 kph by a big Merc (esp when you've got a faster car,
    but  a few more brains) makes me wish I had a few coins at hand, and an
    open sunroof.

I have been a tailgater when I get annoyed at people keeping to the fast lane
when there is space on the slow lanes inside them. Really pisses me off when
they know I'm there, and want to get past them. Their attitude seems to be that
"I'm doing the speed limit, so get stuffed". In this case if a reasonable time
has elapsed and they haven't moved over, I move left, pass them, move in front
of them and then slow down, so that they know what it feels like, and then move
off. Nice guy huh ?

The other thing that I find effective is when I have done something stupid
and so caused another driver to get angry, I wave both hands in the air in 
an apologetic sort of way, and mouth "Sorry". It works wonders.

    I must say that reading some of these replies I wonder at the true
    mentallity of you.  I'm no saint, but when it comes to motorway driving
    I'm absolutely appauled at the amount of you that still refer to "Fast"
    and "slow" lanes.  There is only (I believe) 1 way of looking at these
    carriage ways, those that are for normal use, and those that are for
    overtaking.
    
    Those of you that decide to pass illegally on the inside, are in fact
    doing a far worse thing than just being in the wrong lane.  I have done
    plenty of Mad things in a car (It took the powers that be 18 summonses
    before I was banned on totting-up) in the past,, but 1 thing to
    remember is that it is much better to be 5 minutes late in this world,
    than to be forty years early for the next.  Another thing I think worth
    remembering is that the personb who causes an accident, also didn't
    want his car damaged.  Just take a deep breath and think one day he too
    will grow up.

RE:                        <<< Note 1650.16 by JUNO::JUPP >>>
�                            -< Take a deep breath >-

�    Those of you that decide to pass illegally on the inside, are in fact
�    doing a far worse thing than just being in the wrong lane.  I have done
    
    Why?
    
    Laurie.

>>    I'm absolutely appauled at the amount of you that still refer to "Fast"
>>    and "slow" lanes.  There is only (I believe) 1 way of looking at these
    
    Although they are described in Notes using these terms, I am sure that
    most people do appreciate their real use.  Anyhow, if you are
    overtaking other vehicles, you will be travelling in the 'fast' lane
    by comparison.
    
    Also, if a motorway is quite busy, and you are travelling at a fast
    enough speed that you will intend overtaking most other vehicles, it
    really is better to stay to the 'overtaking' (or fast) lane for longer
    periods rather than jinking in and out of the lanes.
    
    J.R.

    If I come accross someone who is sitting in the outside lane
    unnecessarily then there are two things I normally do -
    
    If the traffic is very light a quick flash from a LONG way back just to
    say "Hi - wake up" (rather than the more common bumper-to-bumper "GET
    OUT OF MY B****Y WAY").  I've never had a bad response from this, and
    it usually wakes people up.
    
    I heavier traffic then I just first flash the dipped beam (bit longer
    flash) this also isn't interpreted as abuse and so doesn't get an
    abusive response.  When I've already got dipped light on then a reverse
    flash (turn off dipped beam for fraction of a second - "occulting" for
    you mariners) wakes people up without getting them all upset.
    
    Also there's no pint doing any of this if they can't pull in easily -
    it just winds people up - wound up people do silly things.   
    
    Rob

    
    Ah a sensible approach! :^)
    
    I usually sit there for a bit, after all, we all have our concentration
    wander ONCE in a while. If he doesn't see me after a while (and it's
    pretty rare that he doesn't) I just give a brief flash from a way back.
    99% of the time it wakes 'em up and they move over, but just once in a
    while they either speed up (fine) or slam their brakes on (this results
    in a large amount of finger wagging - often in binary form :^)). If
    they want to play silly buggers I ignore them until it's safe to pass
    without getting involved in a death race 2000 situation. Chances are
    something else'll hold you up a bit down the road anyway, so it's not
    worth taken senseless risks with people with serious phallic problems!
    :^)...
    
    Mark

    Well I thought that my reply would get a reaction, and it did.  With
    reference to:-
    	.17	It's illegal
    	.18	I agree
    	.19	Here Here!!
    
    The crux of the matter is consideration, if you want to wind people up
    then do it somwhere other than on the road.  If drivers were in general
    more considerate then I'm sure the roads would be a lot safer.
    
    If you try to "get your own back" by slowing a tailgater down, you are
    behaving just as badly as he is, by sinking to his own level.
    
    Let the debate continue....

    I did once gey angry when a guy was flashing me to pull over so he could
    pass, at this point I could not because I was only traveling in a old
    Mark III Cortina and I was slowly overtaking someone. Anyway In order
    not to delay him while I finished off overtaking the car on the left ,
    getting a safe space in front and pulling over, I put the anchors on
    as hard as the old MARK III could give me and I pulled in behind the
    guy on the left instead... The pig behind didn't even thank me for
    saving him all that time .
    
    When driving at speed and trying to get from A to B faster... What do
    people do with the few min's or seconds they have risked life and limb
    for ? 
    
    
                          KR
    
    
    
                            KR

	And "getting your own back" is not only behaving as badly as the 
	person winding you up, but it escalates the situation and heightens 
	the risk of an accident.

	This morning whilst overtaking into oncoming traffic with a good
	overtaking window, the car being overtaken noticed me and speeded
	up.  This despite the fact that he/she had been doing around 40mph in
	a 60 mph limit and ducking down to the left (changing cassettes?).
	Did I get mad?  Did I get even?  Well neither, my overtake window 
	closed and I just eased in behind him/her.  Smug thoughts emanated 
	from my car.  Slightly later I chose the better lane of two into
	traffic lights and gained around 4 cars.  Even more smugness and 
	well being ensued...

	Dave

    Well coming back from heathrow late one evening I had the misfortume to
    come up behind a car sitting in the outside lane, with a clear(ish)
    motorway ahead of him. (note I was keeping my distance). When he got to
    the point where there was nothing on his left and he didn't pull in I
    flashed him. He immidiately slammed on his brakes at which point I
    ducked into the centre lane. 
    
    I waited to see what he would do and he just kept going at the same
    pace with about half a mile clear in from of him and me. So I
    eventually put my foot down and comfortably passed him in the centre
    lane. (note he started accelerating to block/chase me at this point but
    a 1.9 diesel is no match for a 416GSi 16V) 
    
    A few minutes later I came up behind another car in the outside lane,
    with cars in front of him and alongside, so I slowed into the flow.
    
    This nutter came storming up behind me, flashing his lights, and then
    slammed on his brakes causing the lady beside him to practically nut
    the widscreen and hurt herself on the seatbelt. (I could see her
    complaining at him.
    
    All this when he was the only person driving aggrssively in the first
    place. 
    
    He then started weaving from side to side wildly, and eventually passed
    me on the inside and cut into the gap between the car in front of me
    and the one ahead of him causing the one in front of me to slam on.
    
    I just stayed calm and with calm and measured driving kept pace with
    his now furious and erratic over and under taking. 
    
    Eventually I blew past him and lost him some miles further on.
    
    I know undertaking is not legal, but since He started messing about
    when I flashed at him I consider it prudent.!!
    
    Richard
    further on.

    Although not an effective weapon after dark, I always have an A5 spiral
    back notepad tucked between the driver's seat and the centre console. 
    Using the thick felt tip pen in the centre tray, write the registration
    number on the pad and show it to the offending driver i I know this
    sounds dangerous whilst driving but it's amazingly easy to record seven
    characters without looking down!
    
    This *usually* instills some sense of nomallity into the situation. 
    The thought of getting reported for unsafe driving is a powerful tool. 
    The fact that the police will rarely act if you do report an incident,
    unless a collision actually occurs, is neither here nor there.  The
    p*ll#ck whose number you've just taken isn't to know that.
    
    Tip of the note from an ex-traffic cop friend - if you're on a motorway
    and are the `victim' of dangerous driving, stop at the next emergency
    phone and pass the registration number to the controller telling them
    that you think this is a drunk driver.  If there's an arrest in it,
    they're intertested.  It's the old `metrics dictate behaviour'!

    I don't seem to have these problems, for some reason no-one seems to
    lane hog in front of me, and I find I can generally ignore tailgaters.
    Perhaps RangeRovers with towbars have their uses after all...
    
    JJ.

    
    Heh JJ,
    
    Of course no-one lane hogs in front of you. They're all in the outside
    lane! :^)
    
    Mark

    ... so much anger,
    	so much revenge,
    	so much intimidation
    
    
    	I thought this note was about how people coped, not how badly they
    	would react.
    
    	Someone has actually condoned tailgating as well.
    
    	I hope people have got everything off their chest within the safety
    	of this notes file, and understood the other's point of view,
    	rather than learned new ways of bringing death to our roads.
    
    	It takes 2 to tango, I try not to make one person's attitude
    	problem become my personal dice with death. If you REALLY want to
    	have a crack at people, take up Stock Car Racing, its a wonderful
    	therapy & there are no 38 ton artics !
    
    	Tony.

    
    Of all the comments I hear or read regarding accidents on our 
    roads, in particular on our M-ways, the most popular AND the
    most dangerous habit is being too close to the car in front.
    
    This comment comes from the Police, Safety experts and anyone else
    who has the job of picking up the pieces after accidents.
    
    Personally I am of the opinion that 'tailers' are pratts and are
    a danger to themselves and other roadusers. They think they are 
    clever. I don't care how good they think their brakes and driving
    skills are, braking distances weren't invented for fun and they 
    aren't the only drivers on the M-way, or off it for that matter.
    
    JN.

... what's all this overtaking thing??

      It's all down to your own attitude. Sometimes I get pissed off, 
      sometimes I smile and let them get on with it, sometimes I wish I  
      was sailing! 

      (When sailing I race. Intense competitive pressure. This leads to  
      MANY wound up people.... I sail an old boat - other people sail lot 
      newer ones!! At speeds of < 4 mph damage is minimal or 
      non-existent... but the others get very anxious when they see my old 
      boat with many war wounds on it heading straight for their new one!! 
      - I wish I could do that on the road - maybe I can, I drive a company 
      car!).

      Back to the road - If I am getting pissed off and need to change my 
      attitude, I find I need to change my speed. 

      So instead of concentrating in covering A to B as quick as possible, 
      I decide that this week I am very hard up, and so I really ought to 
      save some money.
      so back to the inside lane, where 56 mph for a couple of minutes is 
      enough to a) change my attitude, b) calm me down c) convince me I can 
      afford the petrol! and d) get the offending cars out of my line of 
      sight.

	I lost my temper with a fellow road user on Saturday afternoon
	because, in my opinion, he was behaving like a moron. I could
	have stayed cool but I tend to want to explain to these people
	what idiots they are. If we ignore their dangerous habit they
	may begin to think its normal behaviour and become even more
	dangerous, if that's possible.

	The situation was ...

		... I'm doing 30 in a 30 mph zone. Its a reasonable busy
	urban road near some shops. The car behind me is right up close
	to my rear bumper. He then decides to overtake me on a small
	bend in the road causing the oncomming cars to swerve, flash their
	headlights and sound their horns. Less than 200 yards down the road
	the car doing the overtaking signals to turn right and is stopped
	from doing so by the oncomming traffic. This stops me from making
	progress. I made sure the guy in front knew I was not impressed.

	Graham

    Hmm...There's no-one so difficult to teach as one who doesn't want to
    learn. Short of being in mortal danger of having ones head ripped off
    I'm not sure there is any learning process out there that can be
    administered by a driver who is a victim of someones elses
    ignorance/stupidity/arrogance.
    
    Peace, man. (semantics : man= man or woman :^) )
    
    If you really cant decide who is right or wrong, take an advanced
    driving course IAM/RoSPA. Then go stock-car-racing.
    
    

	I was responding to the original note by showing that its easy
	to sit here and say take it nice and calm out there but some
	times it very hard. Speaking as someone whose just taken the
	RoSPA test, I would say that the bigest change I'd had to make
	to my driving was my attitude to other road users. I hardly get
	angry with another driver now, but once in a while there is an
	incident that would try the patience of a saint. see .31

	At the end of the day there are some very unskilled drivers out
	there. If we ignore them I don't think they'll go away.

	Graham

	PS a Police officer did once remark that a quick "friendly" flash
	of your headlights was justified if a car was travelling in an
	overtaking lane on a motorway. This he said was "educating the
	other driver".

RE: <<< Note 1650.33 by MARVIN::STRACHAN "Graham Strachan CBN-Reading 830-4752" >>>
    
�	PS a Police officer did once remark that a quick "friendly" flash
�	of your headlights was justified if a car was travelling in an
�	overtaking lane on a motorway. This he said was "educating the
�	other driver".
    
    Did he say what one should do if they refuse to pull over?
    
    Laurie.

    

    � Did he say what one should do if they refuse to pull over?
    
    Easy. Just turn on your blue flashing light.
    
    JJ.

    
    FYI, strictly speaking, it *isn't* against the law to undertake on 
    a motorway. Its against the highway code.
    

    � FYI, strictly speaking, it *isn't* against the law to undertake on 
    � a motorway. Its against the highway code.
    
    If that's true, it isn't stopping the Courts round my way dishing out
    �600 fines for it!
    
    Ian.

    Well, I'm only relaying what Thames Vally Police told me.

>    If that's true, it isn't stopping the Courts round my way dishing out
>    �600 fines for it!

Are you sure you're not going to be in receipt of a CD%% offence ? Which can be
a result of overtaking on the inside ?

M.

    I think the law says something like:
    
    	The Highway code isn't law, but failure to follow the guidelines
    	contained in the code can result in prosecution for
    	careless/wreckless driving...
    
    	
    It's something likethat anyway... at least thats what the nice gent in
    blue said as he filled out his little book and issued me with my
    warning for said offence!
    
    Bob

    
    Yeah but Bonzo, *I've* seen you drive!

    Yeah... You wait till I get my tank... then lets see the moron from
    nextdoor park across the drive with my car in the drive...!!!
    
    Watcha tone...Hows the TTT and SK getting on ?
    
    

RE:           <<< Note 1650.40 by NEEPS::IRVINE "All Hail SUMOmeister!" >>>

�    	careless/wreckless driving...
                 ^
    
    Now there's a thought.....    
    
    Laurie.

    I know what I said.... 8*)
    
    And I didn't hit anything....8*P
    
    Bob

    Re: Highway codes small red writing at the front.
    
    It actually says that the code isn't leagally binding, but if you break
    it and something happens - you end up in a court facing/defending claim
    for damages etc - this can be taken into account.
    
    eg - If a bike rider gets knocked off their bike and aren't wearing
    'suitable clothing' so are permanently disfigured, then any financial
    claim on someone else (whos complete fault it was) can be reduced by
    the court. Just cause they weren't following the Highway Code.
    
    Rob

    
    
    The Highway code also sugests that when driving on a carriageway that
    is designated as oneway you should check both left and right for
    overtakers before changing lane....This increases damages claims....or
    it did mine anyway... It also states that if the traffic to the right
    of your vehicle is in a formed, slow moving queue and it is possible
    for you travel faster than that queue then it is acceptable to overtake
    on the left.
    nb. it shall be held as an offence for any driver/vehcle to move from a
    slow moving queue to a faster moving left hand lane solely for the
    perpose of overtaking.  **** my question.... what exactly constitutes a
    Queue ???  *****.
    
    there it is the answer to all those questions....if the circumstances
    are correct you can legally overtake on the left and if some pr$%t cuts
    you up.......run him off the road.....
    
    defensive driving = this is my road, use it but accept the consequences
    :-)...
    
     Alan.
     

    	I'm a bit late joining in here but I've been reading this topic
    with interest over the past week or so. I find myself in complete 
    empathy with the original note written by Dougie ; some of the replies
    appear to be from people who employ tactics such as Dougie was
    describing...
    
    	I took the IAM test about four years ago after doing the one-day
    Drive-and_survive course through Digital. It seemed to me that I used
    to get worked up too often and "retaliate" to careless or aggressive
    drivers.
    
    	Although I feel that I am a better driver for it, I still can't
    help feeling that (line Graham Strachan) I want to draw attention to 
    this plonkers behaviour which, in my opinion, is inconsiderate or 
    downright dangerous. However, as Mr Jupp has pointed out, you demean 
    yourself and sink to the level of the perpetrator.
    
    	I guess I, for one among many in this conference, still have a long
    way to go to be a really advanced driver....
    
    	As a by-the-by, does anyone have a Rospa phone number - I know I
    have it somewhere around, unless I threw it at the old lady who neatly
    carved me up this morning....
    
    Colin

Every morning on my way to work, I arrive at the front of the queue on the A33
northbound at J11 of the M4 in the right hand lane. I pull out and continue in
my lane which takes me into the centre lane in the queue at the traffic lights.
At the same time as I pull out a car on my nearside pulls out. 99 times out of
100 they will try to change lanes into the same space I'm occupying. I don't
get mad, but sometimes they do, why?

/Dave.

    Dave..... (without prejudice)
    
    As far as I recall, there are no markings that take your lane on the
    A33 into the centre lane of the matorway bridge. Equally you could
    proceed into the offside lane on the bridge.
    
    The people on the nearside lane of the A33 probably feel they also have
    a choice: into the nearside or centre lanes of the motorway bridge.
    
    Why do you feel they don't?
    
    JK

    re .48, .49
    
    I agree with Dave.
    
    Why should they go into the centre lane ?
    
    From the A33 the left lane should should be for traffic wanting to go M4
    West or A33 North. The right lane should be for traffic wanting to go
    M4 East, B nnn (Shire Hall) or A33 North.
    
    The lanes over the motorway are marked A33, A33 + Bnnn, M4.
    
    Clearly no one in the left lane of the A33 NEEDS to go to the centre
    lane on the bridge to get to their desired exit (unless they should
    have been in the right lane on the A33), however some people on the
    right lane of the A33 do need to go to the centre lane. The traffic
    would flow better if people on the left lane stayed to the left on the
    roundabout.
    
    Actually at the time I come to work (about 9:30) it is actually
    advantageous on most days to use the left lane of the A33, and the left
    lane of the roundabout. Changing to the right lane of the A33 after the
    roundabout.
    
    Andrew

    re:.48
    
    Playing Devils Advocate here, my guess is that *some* drivers will use 
    the left lane of the A33 in the simple belief that the left lane is for 
    vehicles going left/straight on, the right lane is for vehicles turning
    right. So, (with me so far ?), this driver on the left may believe
    (s)he has a God-given right to select either of the Roundabout's
    straight-ahead lanes, & woe-betide any A33 right-lane drivers who
    attempt deny them this privilege.
    
    Seems a flimsy excuse to lose ones rag though, I'll agree. My guess is
    that some drivers will plan every move ahead and cant take the personal
    rejection when someone else modifies their ideas. Their problem.
    
    
     This roundabout is the subject of much venom further back in this 
     notesfile.

Saw a great variation this morning. Cavalier in left A33 lane goes to centre
roundabout lane, Montego in right A33 lane goes to left roundabout lane and
all without grief!

/Dave.

    
    ......and the white helmets (army display team) get load of applauds
    for this type of manouvre.

    Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but it was a decidely
    unmellow chap, so here goes...
    
    ..driving to work this am, (Warrington Sales Office BTW), I went left
    at the last roundabout before the side road to the office. Here I found
    a chap parked in a white Sierra, parked and not moving you will note. I
    moved right to go round him, and turn left into the office just past
    the nose of his car. At this point he seemed to find it appropriate to
    pull away, no signal, no check, no nothing !
    
    I just swung round the front of his moving car (I had no choice at the
    time), hit my horn, and drove into the office. The guy then follows me,
    at speed, trying to overtake. I swung into the visitor's car park (I
    don't work here, honest guv', just visiting ;-). He follows me and
    starts with the verbal. I suggested that he should decide whether he
    was parking or moving. 'I was looking at my f*****g map' was not, I
    felt, an adequate excuse. He then proceeded to offer to rearrange my
    face. I did not feel inclined to take him up on his offer, and let him
    speed away.
    
    Unfortunately I did not have the presence of mind to get his number, or
    I would report him to the police. Not that they'd do anything, but it
    would make me feel better.
    
    Colin
    
    P.S. My car is a little nicer that a boring 1.8 Sierra, so p'haps that
    annoyed him too !

    >>   ..driving to work this am, (Warrington Sales Office BTW), I went left
  
    It's Warrington Sales & Service office actually. You may have heard of
    the other half, you may not.
    
    Phil Gill.

Re: .54

Yeah, I had one of these...parked car decided it wasn't parked after 
all...pulled straight across the road in front of me.

she lied through her teeth and said that she had been waiting in the middle of 
the road, indicating, to turn right...

I had an incompetent/disinterested barrister who was quite content to 
believe that as other people had overtaken cars waiting to turn right before, 
this is what I must have done....

a road wide enough to hold 5 cars abreast...she had only just passed her 
test...and the judge decided that she was more likely be most familiar with the 
highway code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  since when did that equate ?

not to mention that they decided that I must have been exceeding 55 mph because 
of the damage...they conveniently dismissed that she had tried to demolish a 
house with her car after being hit...

just as they conveniently dismissed all the photographs I had taken immediately 
after the accident...the photos didn't fit with *HER* statement so they can't 
have been true....


I'm still spitting over that one 3� years later...


I think British Justice (non-jury type) depends entirely which defendent the 
judge fancies....

    re:56
    
    Phil...I could totally acquiesce, alternatively I could preach the view
    that in an organisation like ours you either make 'em or you sell 'em.
    Since I've not recently seen you wielding part-built VAXes from one
    part of the office to the other, whilst spraying them with grey paint
    in your spare time, I won't do either !
    
    You're a smart a**e, and I stand marginally corrected ;-) ;-)
    
    Colin

    
    
    Compared to some, we seem to be a generally mellow, if, in afew cases,
    misguided lot.
    
    Compare the reactions detailed here with this bit of driver
    interaction, seen very recently on a bridge in the US.
    
    Long line of traffic, 4 deep, queuing to get on the bridge.
    The Red car cuts in front of the Blue car, obliging the driver to salm
    on his brakes.  Low speed, no impact, general mutterings all round,
    then, The Big Mistake.  Blue car blows his horn.
    Mr Red car climbs out, with a baseball bat, and totals Mr Blue's
    windscreen (-shield)
    
    Have a nice day !!
    
    Ian

    .60 reminds me of an incident I witnessed many years ago...
    
    It was about midnight, I was at a T junction, behind a Landrover, both
    of us wanting to turn right.  The road was clear, so the Landrover
    pulled out and turned.  As he did so, a Cortina appeared, moving rery
    fast (breaking the 30 limit by at least another 30mph).  The car
    swerved around the slow moving landrover, pulled across in front of it,
    and stopped.
    
    Three lads got out, and went over to attack whoever was in the
    Landrover.  One of them wrenched open the drivers door, which disgorged
    a man roughly the size of a Mountain Gorilla, who happened to be
    holding a cricket bat in one hand.....
    
    It will suffice to say that the three occupants of the Cortina finished
    a very distant second in the ensuing fracas.  The guy got back into his
    Landrover, and drove off.  As he passed the Cortina, he collected both
    o/s doors, which had been left ajar.
    
    I watched the whole thing from my position at the T junction before
    driving off in the opposite direction.  Being much younger then, I took
    the view that justice had been done, and did not report the incident.
    
    
    John

In my landrover I usually carry: a 4 'D' cell maglite, a 2.5 foot fencing post
and a crow bar.


Simon

re.62:

What do you use them for?

/Dave.

Hmmm.

Well the torch is uses to see in the dark, the crowbaw is used to straighten
bent landrovers (that was its last use), splitting logs, pallets on scout camps
and general tasks like that. The fencing post is know as the dog stick. On camp
if attacked by wild dogs, foxes etc. it can be used to scare them off. It also 
can be used for breaking pallets for fire wood.

Simon

    Driving along Cowley bypass near Heathrow Airport I took part in a
    rather strange piece of theatre.
    
    Heading towards Heathrow from Uxbridge the bypass is intially an
    ordinary A-road with 60mph speed limit; the road then becomes a dual
    carriageway for the remaining few miles to the M4.
    
    As I approached the beginning of the dual-carriageway, I caught up with
    a couple of slower moving vehicles... I indicate and begin to overtake
    the first of these two cars. 
    
    The car I'm about to overtake (a Nissan people-carrier thingy), how can
    I best describe this... wafts out to the fast lane without any
    indicating. I have to slam on the anchors, but other than that I make
    no hand signals, flash no lights... I simply braked, although
    admittedly I did come rather too close to the Nissan's rear-end.
    
    I hang back whilst the Nissan slowly (and deliberatley so as far as I was
    concerned) overtook the car in the inside lane. About a truck-length
    later the Nissan (again without indicators) moves over to the nearside
    lane. I then accelerated past (at the very most my top speed was
    65-70mph) the Nissan and once by indicated left and pulled back into
    the nearside lane.
    
    At this point chummy in the Nissan puts his headlights on full beam.
    Then stupid thing to do I know (and the only stupid thing that I did) I
    gestured to the Nissan driver that he should go forth and multiply. (I
    hasten to add there was no dabbing the brakes or switching on rear fog
    lamp on my part... the hand gesture was also done from inside the car,
    without turning round/rolling down windows, etc.)
    
    I continued at 65-70mph and the Nissan made no attempt to keep up with
    me.
    
    As you approach the M4 you come across some traffic lights which, as
    luck would have it, turned to red. I came to a halt with about half a
    car length between the front of my car and the white stop line at the
    lights.
    
    Next thing the Nissan draws up on the nearside of my car. I decide to
    try to ignore the other driver who, from is movements, which I can make
    out from the corner of my eye, is ever so slightly irrate.
    
    I finally took a look over to my left to see the other driver
    suggesting that I should swivel on his middle finger. I winked back at
    him... I don't know why, I just did. I guess I just wanted to
    acknowledge his gesture and let him know I didn't care what he thought
    of me. (All the time I'm praying that the lights will turn to red.)
    
    I turn to look ahead, and as I did so the other driver motions to try
    to get out of his car, and in doing so realises that he has stopped to
    close to my car and therefore cannot get out. He also got the message
    that I wasn't too fussed about his rantings and ravings and now
    produces a policeman's hat. he then gesticulates once more that I
    should behave myself.
    
    By this time, I'm truly considering becoming a freemason and motion, by
    generally looking scared, that I will behave myself (even although, bar
    the go-forth-and-multiply hand gesture, I had behaved correctly and by
    the law.)
    
    I must have looked as though I'd got the message, because the Nissan
    moves forward (lights are still on red) and pulls over in front of me.
    The Nissan then reverses at a fair pace towards the front of my car,
    but stopped before it would have made impact with my car.
    
    The lights turn to green whilst I'm wondering what's going to happen
    next and the Nissan moves of. I followed. 
    
    The last I saw of him was as he pulled out onto the roundabout under
    the M4 at the Poste House hotel. (He made this final maneouvre in front 
    of oncoming traffic with the right of way and still minus any outward
    indication as to where he was headed.)
    
    And before anyone asks, no I didn't get the car number appart from the
    fact it was a J-reg.
    
    

..doesn't sound like a policeman to me, guv....

Most of Our Chums in Blue have enough sense not to call attention to their
occupation when behaving like idiots.  (except, of course, when Behaving Like
Idiots In The Line Of Duty...;-)

More likely a nutter with a toy-shop hat, which he keeps in the 
car to have a jolly jape, now and again, when the mood strikes him.

Pity you didn't get his number though...

 Ian

I had a similar experience in Portsmouth once, I turned right into a side street
off a fairly busy side road and stopped close to the corner to allow a passenger
to hop out and post a letter.  Once my pasenger had got back in and was trying to
do his seat belt up this berk in an old Cavalier had hopped up the curb to my
right, missing my car by inches, to get pass me (Oh BTW this was a very thin one
way street I was parked in)  I'll agree I was in the way but I only stopped for
about 20 secs so I figured if anyone wanted to turn in they could wait.

After he had got past he turns round and starts to gesticulate madly at me, and
shouts abuse in some strange language. So me and my mate look at each other and
do what anyone would do in that situation, we both smile broadly at him and wave
at him (kinda like Billy and Johnny do if your a Hale and Pace fan).  This seemed
to wind him up somewhat and he reversed towards us at great speed, and skidded to
a halt about a foot from the front of my car.  We continue waving, we havn't
sworn at him, we havn't raised our voices, in fact we were awefully restrained.

To top it all we had to follow this guy down the street being very careful
because he was accelerating, braking, reversing, and generally getting awfully
annoyed at us.

Baffling behaviour, it just goes to show that you can annoy people just as much
when your not shouting abuse at them, or waving various fingers around.

	Matt.

    As an addendum to .66 and in way of reply to .67...
    
    Appart from the reversing bit the Nissan driver really didn't do
    anything "idiotic".... Ok so he pulled out in front of me without
    indicating (or, by speculation, checking his mirror), but this is the
    sort of thing you see every day.
    
    I still think he was a policeman ! When the hat was produced (flat top
    version)... my attention was drawn to the fact that he was wearing a
    dark jacket with what looked like a silver-coloured button holding down
    one of them "flap thingies" on his right shoulder... you know, like a
    policeman's jacket.
    
    My theory is that the first the chap in the Nissan saw me, was once he'd
    pulled out into the fast lane and, at a guess, would see my car fairly
    close to the rear of his. I guess after that he thought I was driving
    too fast for the road.
    
    On the other hand .67 could be right... but if he was not a
    policeman... why did he suddenly become "sane" and just drive off?  Why
    not get out and at least have a go at damaging my car? It was around
    11pm on a Sunday night after all with hardly anyone around?
    
    Such is life...
    
    
                

he was a fireman or an ambulanceman.  They may care less about you
reporting them?

or a prison officer or a security guard.

jb

    
    Or a male stripogram!
    
    Mark

    ;-69
    
    My brother in law is in the police, and this is the sort of thing he would
    do. In fact when he joined up , the whole family was a bit taken back.
    The last time I went for a car ride with him, he was driving a 3.5
    Rover SDI, and as part of a show off stunt ...."my car is just as fast
    as your R5 turbo", we ended up doing near on 85MPH down the road where I
    live. This road has parked cars on either side and one has to slow down
    to pass on coming cars . He now sees himself as a boy racer above the
    law. One of his friends ( also in the police ) was stopped doing over a
    ton on the M25, and he got let off by flashing his warrant card, "Can't
    risk it if your in a different area " he said. 
    I now hold a different view to the police ....lets just hope these two
    are just a minority in the force ! 
    
    If you can't beat them join them .
    
    
    
                     KR                

    
    re -1:
    
    This sounds like a policeman my friend told about here in Finland.
    
    He was driving on highway at a slight overspeed. A policecar passed
    him and showed STOP -sign. My friend stopped the car and opened the
    window. From police car came a guy with mirror-glasses, chewing a gum.
    He had a belt with text "Metropolitan police Las Vegas"! 
    
    My friend said that he should have said:
    
    "Sorry Sheriff, but don't ya think you're out of your territory?"
    
    Some young cops think it is so cool to be in Police. I think most of
    them learn by age.
    
    
    
    Hannu

	re: .-1

	Hannu, that sounds just like it was a friend of mine. He was really
	a 'boy-racer' and always told how he hated the police. And then one
	day he joined them. And for the first couple months as police he acted 
	just like the cop you described. But nowadays he has calmed down and
	doesn't act like 'sheriff' anymore.

	- Jyri -

It's all very well trying to keep mellow all the time, when you've got to put
up with other people not being mellow and driving a little haphazardly.

I had the off-side corner of my Mini thumped earlier on today, on the Worton
Grange roundabout.

	Deep Breath , Count to 10.



		<AAAAAARRRGGGGGGG>

So now it's body-shop time and try to get the cash back.

	Matt-whos-gone-off-Volvo-owners-big-time-Biggin

    What you moaning about Matt.......I'd love to have someone smash into
    the back of my car.
    
    It means they are ALWAYS in the wrong cos they shouldn't be that close
    in the first place, which means a nice new wheel arch and paint job on
    his insurance.....lovely jubbly !!!
    
    Bazza
    (the green spitty if anybody fancies smashing into my rear end)
    

>    It means they are ALWAYS in the wrong cos they shouldn't be that close
>    in the first place, which means a nice new wheel arch and paint job on
>    his insurance.....lovely jubbly !!!
    
 
	Speaking from experience............

	............don't expect the insurers to take the same view, even if 
	you have photographs that prove it!!!!!!!!   


	Heather

I'm not counting on anything at the moment from the insurers I was rather hoping
that the guy in question would settle for paying the repair bill.  It shouldn't 
cost that much to repair and he is a DECcie so he should be an OK bloke.

Still life usually has something up it's sleeve and it's not usually cash!


	Matt.

    RE.78
    
    So what line do the insurers take then ??
    
    Bazza
    

    As the guy's a Deccie, one can only hope he's an 'OK' guy! I once had a
    Rover SD1 totalled in the DPII car park by a Deccie, who 'T'boned me,
    after returning from the pub somewhat the worse for wear ! 
    
    Unfortunately, if the guy is driving a Decmobile, then he has 3rd party
    insurance (I guess with Zurich?) as DEC cover the 'own damage' bit
    themselves (ie; not fully comp). In my case I had real problems because
    he a)Wouldn't admit liability
       b)Had 3 passengers who "didn't see anything"
    and c)I was only just collecting the car after purchasing it from
    another Deccie (an OK guy!), so the insurance situation was
    questionable (my fault), and they would only agree to third party cover
    :-(.
    
    I eventually got back less than I had paid for it a couple of hours
    before the accident!
    
    Nigel (who ALWAYS checks on his insurance now!)

Well the guy that thumped me wasn't drunk, just in a hurry, and he did hit the
back of my car.  I always thought that if someone ever hit the back of your car 
it was his fault, no arguing.

We'll see wont we?

Matt-whos-a-little-concerned-Biggin.

    Yeah, thats what I thought too Matt 
    
    Bazza
    

Right well I've had a word with the guy who hit me's secretary and it looks like 
the car was a Digital Leasemobile, and insured through DEC.  He's going to be
filling in an 'accident report form' and as yet I don't know his insurance
company.  

So what do I do now, do I have to get an accident report form as well?, or do I
just get the lads together and storm his office shouting "Give me the dosh nazi!!"


Any suggestions,

	Matt-getting-wound-up-Biggin.

    You HAVE reported the incident to your own insurance company already
    HAVEN'T YOU? If not, do it NOW, and fill in the accident report form.
    If you don't do this it can seriously effect your status in a claim.
    
    The chances are that you won't have problems, but it pays to follow the
    procedures (take it from one who has had more than his fair share of
    'odd' insurance type problems!).
    
    If you have a fully comprehensive policy, your insurance company will
    deal with the matter better than you can in these circumstances. If you
    are third party, then you have to make the claim anyway.
    
    Don't panic, chances are the guy IS ok, and it will just be a
    procedural thing. You should get at least two quotes to repair your car
    asap, that's the first thing his insurance will want before agreeing to
    let you proceed (so will your own insurance company).
    
    Bon chance!
    
    Nigel

    
    	RE.84
    	
    [Or do I get the Lads together and storm into his office shoutin'Give
    me the dosh Nazi.
    
    Did you say VOLVO driver?When are we going?
    
    	Andy..I-detest-Volvos-even-more-than-fords.
    

    Er Andy....what do YOU drive, if you let me know, I'll have the garage
    sift through the tin-tops they pick out of my 760 grill at every
    service.....may be a few usable spares in there! ;-)
    
    As I said in another note, I ONLY bought a Volvo for my kids security,
    can't say I ever had fun in one!
    
    Nigel (who detests any drivers who cause unnecessary problems)

Where can I get hold of an accident report form?

Cheers,


	Matt Biggin.

re.88:

Err, from your insurance company or agent (if you deal with one).

/Dave.

Re. .87

I think that confirms my long held suspicion that Volvo drivers like watching
other peoples cars disintegrate as they hit them...!  ;-)

_Richard

Thanks for the support lads,  I've always fancied a little vigilante!!

I've phoned my nice insurance peeps and they are sending me a claim form, and
that will get sent to their legal peeps who will chase up the money.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

	Matt Biggin.

>    RE.78
>    
>    So what line do the insurers take then ??
    
	Story, we were travelling along a road, indicated right at a 
	cross-roads, and started to turn right. (the road was also a right
	-hand bend so anyone coming up fast behind would not have seen us 
	until quite late)

	We heard very noisy squeals and were hit up the back.

	Damage to us, back panel of the NG, and wheel rim and wheel where
	hit against the bank. - 1,000 (wire chrome rim wheels plus tyre
	were over 400 quid)

	Damage to them, bonet, radiator, rippled side pannels, and right side 
	driver side door unable to open damage 4000 quid, a new Carlton.

	I had a camera with me, and took photos of the cars, with the skid 
	marks clearly shown, and cars in the cross-roads.

	The bloke in the other car says that we didn't indicate, just turned
	right with no warning, as he had started to overtake us, he hit us,
	and it was all our fault.

	Now, we were hit up the back, and at his admission he was trying to 
	overtake us on a cross-roads.

	Personnaly I think he had seen the NG and decided he was going to 
	race/overtake and had speeded up to overtake us coming out of the bend.
	However, as we were taking a right-turning on the right bend, he
	didn't see us untill too late, and crunch. His skid marks were both
	on the wrong side of the road.	

	His insurance company wanted knock-for knock, ours thought we were
	in the right.

	We had to pay for uninsured losses on the wheel, and a higher
	premium 'till they sorted it out. The next year came, and we still had
	to pay a higher premium, the next renewal is June. Our insurance company
	has decided its not worth taking it to court, as they're betting 1,000
	against 4,000, and don't expect to get awarded costs. 

	They have given us full no-claims discount back, and repaid the 
	difference of the premiums.

	The other guys insurance didn't pay, if we were third-party only, we
	would have had to pay ourselves, or take his insurance company to
	court...........and probably end up paying our own costs.

	Heather

>	His insurance company wanted knock-for knock, ours thought we were
>	in the right.

Tell you what Heather, I'll spell ALL-IN-1 correctly if you represent the "Knock
for Knock" agreement correctly.

It is IRRESPECTIVE of blame. It is solely an agreement between insurance
companies that they should pay their own Insured's losses without seeking
redress from the other insurer, irrespective of fault.

	Okay, the result, however, is that we were hit up the back, it was
	NOT automatically the other persons fault, and its taken nearly
	2 years, and some of our money, to get things settled.

	Heather

    
    re: .92
    
    >	Damage to us, back panel of the NG, and wheel rim and wheel where
                                        ^^
    
    Just curious, what sort of car is an NG ?
    
    re: General point, while it a driver's responsibility (under various
    Road Traffic Acts and regulations) to allow sufficient distance behind
    other vehicles to be able to stop, it is not an ABSOLUTE responsibility
    in Civil Law.
    
    Thus, if you sue X for hitting your back-end, the court may decide that
    your own negligence contributed to the accident by some percentage and
    reduce your damages proportionately. In this case you probably wouldn't
    satisfy the requirements for not losing NCD etc.
    
    Mike H.
    

    
>    Just curious, what sort of car is an NG ?
 
	It's an NG TC 3.5 V8 (rover engine)

	Nick Green designed it, and gave it his initials. It's a kit based on 
	the 1930's Aston Martin Ulster body shape , (2-seater sports) and has 
	MG (C I think) running gear.

	Thus my claim that he must have seen us up front, and decided to see 
	if he could race us.
	He came blind around a right-hand bend, on the wrong side of the road,
	and found us turning right!

	Heather

	PS It is a fibreglass body with a 3.5 V8 engine, the claim he was trying
	to overtake us is ludicrous!!!!!!!!

    Yeah, I see what you're saying but I think thats a very extreme case
    and you have have been very unlucky....although I still think if you
    had gone to court then you probably would have won !!
    
    Bazza
    (This is an uneducated opinion as I have never been in a crash but I am
    just using my common sense)
    

    >> just using my common sense <<
    
    You have the problem in a nut shell. Insurance companys DON'T have any
    common sence, let alone know how to use it.
    
    
    Neil

Does anyone have experience of trying to recover an "excess" after a shunt?
My wife was driven-into-the-back-of, the insurers have said, "Go ahead and
get it fixed, but remember that we don't pay the first X pounds..."

How do I go about getting that back from the guy who rear-ended our car ?
I suspect, in practice, I can't, unless I make a solicitor even richer....
in which case, am I wasting my money ?

Any advice/experience among the assembled talent ?


Ian

    You don't have to get it back form the other driver, you can get it
    from their insurance company if the other person admits liability.
    
    Once you've got it, you can wave it at your insurance co. to ensure
    your no claims bonus stays intact/
    
    JfK

re.99:

>Does anyone have experience of trying to recover an "excess" after a shunt?

Yes.

>How do I go about getting that back from the guy who rear-ended our car ?

Can I assume you are not insured through a broker that does this as part of
their service?

>I suspect, in practice, I can't, unless I make a solicitor even richer.

I've done it without a solicitor.

>unless I make a solicitor even richer....in which case, am I wasting my money ?

Probably.

>Any advice/experience among the assembled talent ?

Write to the other driver, making it clear that they were responsible for the
accident and therefore libale to recompense you, and ask them for the amount of
the excess plus any other uninsured losses. Refer to and enclose any evidence
necessary to verify the amounts claimed (invoices etc..).

Approaching the other driver, who is likely to be inexperienced in such matters,
is more likely to get a result than approaching his insurance company direct 
(IMHO).

/Dave.
PS Usual disclaimers!

    Take an even harder line, send your letter, preferably couched in
    concise, hard hitting, legalese format by RECORDED DELIVERY. I don't
    mean threaten in any way (that would weaken your case) but something on
    the lines of
    
    "Dear Sir,
              with reference to the accident etc etc. As it has been
    established that your client was to blame for the accident, I therefore
    require you to reimburse my ininsured losses in full, I enclose details
    of my claim and demand settlement within 30 days. If I do not hear from
    you in the affirmative, I shall have no alternative but to seek
    compensation in law. I need not remind you of the added costs involved
    in such action which could in these circumstances have only one
    outcome......" 
    
    It often works, recorded delivery letters nearly always get attention 
    
    NR
    

>I suspect, in practice, I can't, unless I make a solicitor even richer....
>in which case, am I wasting my money ?

The advice so far has been good, although the "solicitor" type letter was
possibly a likttle more brutal than I would suggest for first contact.

Two important thing to remember; Firstly, unless you have a protected NCD, you
WILL lose it unless you recover this excess. Secondly, it will be the other
guy's insurers that will pay this, not him.

M.

Well, this could turn into one of those long-running notes sagas.....

Thanks for all the advice, everyone.

I do have a protected NCD (which is why they insist on me taking an excess, I
suspect!)

I have written to the other guy, in quite a mellow (retaining a semblance of 
relevance to the base topic) tone, pointing out that I have uninsured losses of
X pounds, and I shall be required to seek recompense from him.  I've asked him
to tell me how he wants to handle it, does he want to pass it on to his 
insurers or handle it himself ?  etc...

Judging by his attitude at the time of the accident, I suspect that the answer 
may well be very short and blunt, and include the word "off !", in which case
I'll try the rather heavier approach.


Watch this space....

Ian

    
    re: .104 (and its immediate predecessors).
    
    If your a member of AA or RAC, your membership includes free legal
    advice services. This includes extracting uninsured losses from other
    drivers not just representation in court for careless driving etc.
    
    It would be well worth while to give them a call.
    
    Mike H.