Conference terri::cars_uk

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Conference:  UK_CARS

Topic title: Camshaft belt breaking
Note title:                                                      Lines:   23
Author:      KERNEL::BARTHUR     
Number:      1477.0       Created: 25-Jun-1991 15:23             Replies: 13
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    	Does anyone out there have experience of camshaft belts breaking,
    	causing the obvious damage that happens when piston meets valve?
    
    	I would particularly like to hear from anyone who has heard of this
    	happening on BMW 318i's.
    
    	A little background.
    	A friend of mine has had a 318i since new. It has always been
    	serviced at the correct interval by the same garage.
    	The last service cost #470 and the mileage was around 47.000 miles.
    
    	BMW claim that the belt does not require changing until 2 services
    	ahead.
    	I believe that almost every make of car suffers with this problem
    	and that Peugeot change it after 30.000 miles.
    
    	What do the "panel" think, and how can I get BMW to fix the damage
    	at their expense?
    
    
    		Bill 

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Conference:  UK_CARS

Topic title: Camshaft belt breaking
Note title:                                                      Lines:   15
Author:      AEOEN2::MATTHEWS     In a negative brownie-point situation ...
Number:      1477.4       Created: 25-Jun-1991 16:31             Replies: 13
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Having just re-read the base note, it isn't clear to me if the belt has broken
or not.

My BMW had the belt changed at 60k (I think, although it could have been 50K).

That is the recommended interval.

A bill of #470 for a service is about normal for a BMW, especially if it is
a major service.

If the car has a full service history, and the belt snaps, I would have 
thought that there is a reasonable case for a discussion with BMW to ask them
to fix it for free. What might happen is that they will pay for the parts,
and you pay the labour ... this is what happened to me when they cocked 
something up.

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Conference:  UK_CARS

Topic title: Camshaft belt breaking
Note title:                                                      Lines:   9
Author:      AEOEN2::MATTHEWS     In a negative brownie-point situation ...
Number:      1477.7       Created: 26-Jun-1991 09:31             Replies: 13
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The 470 quid service price is because genuine BMW parts are expensive.
Yes, it's just another car, but the genuine parts have a longer life,
so in the long run are better value. (I know this is what the adverts
say, but I have also found it to be true in practice ...).

re: cam-belt. I suppose we could all have them replaced every 1000 miles,
just to be on the safe side :-). Anyway, who is to say that the quality of
the material used for the cam-belt is the same for every car. Perhaps BMW
over-engineer, to save the unnecessary cost of frequent replacement. 

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Conference:  UK_CARS

Topic title: Camshaft belt breaking
Note title:  The price of fame (genuine BMW part?)               Lines:   33
Author:      TIMMII::RDAVIES     I can't tryp for nots
Number:      1477.9       Created: 26-Jun-1991 09:57             Replies: 13
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>><<< Note 1477.7 by AEOEN2::MATTHEWS "In a negative brownie-point situation ..." >>>

>>The 470 quid service price is because genuine BMW parts are expensive.
>>Yes, it's just another car, but the genuine parts have a longer life,
>>so in the long run are better value. (I know this is what the adverts
>>say, but I have also found it to be true in practice ...).

    What needs replacing on a major service that requires genuine parts?.
    	Plugs, 	do BMW make their own?, say 	�20.
    	Brake pads, 	ditto			�100.
    	Oil, 		ditto			�25
    	filter, 	ditto, 			�20
    	Air filter 	ditto			�25
    	Brake fluid 	ditto			�25
    All this is outlandish, i.e. about 200-500% of other manufacturers
    prices, What else would be replaced?
    
    So we have �215 for parts at an exorbitant rate, and �245 for labour,
    say it took 4 hours, that's �60 per hour!.
    
    Well worth it not to get your hands dirty ! :-)
    
    Not for me...
    Richard
    
    
    
re: cam-belt. I suppose we could all have them replaced every 1000 miles,
just to be on the safe side :-). Anyway, who is to say that the quality of
the material used for the cam-belt is the same for every car. Perhaps BMW
over-engineer, to save the unnecessary cost of frequent replacement. 

    

    I don't own a BMW car but I do own a R60/7 BMW motorcycle. As a general
    rule genuine BMW parts cost about 25% more than BMW lookalike parts,
    however they do carry (on some parts) a 3 year guarantee. I think the
    bottom line is
    
    	You buy Skoda/Trabant cars you get the appropiate service/parts
    if you buy BMW/Rolls-Royce/Volvo you get a superior service/parts. Its
    perhaps what the market expects, after all would you trust a garage
    that services your car for 25 pounds including parts!!
    
    Cheers...Norm
    

Here in the US, the typical service parts (like filters and things) are about
the same price whether you go with BMW or some aftermarket manufacturer.


I always use BMW oil filters - they have a check valve in them, and they seem to
screw on better.

One thing you should do if you change your own oil is to change the little
copper washer on the oil drain plug, everytime.  The washer gets compressed when
you tighten the plug, and if you use it more than one or two times, you can
bung up the threads.  The washer is about 5�, so I'm sure that you can get one
for under 10p.

-Al

re: .5

Agree about BMW parts, but not about the service. I've yet to find a
good BMW garage. Same for Ford and Vauxhall in the past.

>Agree about BMW parts, but not about the service. I've yet to find a
>good BMW garage. Same for Ford and Vauxhall in the past.
    
    I too have not found a good Ford garage, I've not even found a
    reasonable one.  I do know of a reasonable-to-good BMW garage where they 
    worked on a saturday to fix my car after a break-in.  Servicing appears 
    efficient too.  This garage seems to have some spare capacity in terms of 
    mechanics time (has to cost money), with no spare it is difficult to 
    offer a fast and flexible service.

    As my BMW is a company car I don't get too much involved with
    individual spare parts. However I did have to have one Main Beam
    headlight replaced, which came to 61.00 pounds. I don't have the bill
    to hand but it went something like this
    		headlamp assembly 	27.00
    		new adjusting clips 	1.00
    		new bulb!!!!		7.00
    		labour 			19.00
    		vat			8.00
    The bulb was infact OK, but the dealer said "we always change the bulb
    as the origonals become unrealiable if they get wet", to which my
    response was "thats OK so long as you give me the old bulb back", to 
    which there reply was "well, er, um, we will give you a new bulb
    just in case the mechanic did not leave the old bulb in the boot with
    the used parts", and surprise surprise no old bulb in the boot.
    
    I think the parts are expensive, but are they that much more than say
    a VW in this case? The thing that did concern me was that they would
    pull a cheap stunt with the bulb, which for a main BMW dealer is 
    very poor. I wonder what they get up to for items that you can't easily
    check? 
    

    
    I read in an auto magazine recently that the average cost of a major
    service for a 2 year old 318i with 25,000 miles up was about 133
    pounds, and about 196 pounds for a similar aged 528i. The magazine was
    about 2 years old but even allowing for 10% inflation per year this is
    nowhere near the 470 pounds mentioned elsewhere in this note. The
    source of these figures was a guy called Walter Warren, the BMW UK
    service manager. He mentioned lots of interesting things which made BMW
    service costs sound like good value for money, for example
    
    - Genuine BMW parts are guaranteed for and last longer than other makes
    - BMW has a list of standard times for most service operations which 
      official dealers must adhere to
    - BMW regularly audit their offical dealers for adherence to standards
    - BMW have reduced the price of many common components in the last few
      years
    
    Perhaps all other manufacturers do these things as well, I know Ford
    make similar claims.
    
    I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of a "normal" 470 pounds
    service bill, to see where this money is spent. Maybe individual BMWs 
    require more MAJOR services than the BMW corporation thinks or admits ?
    
    Any takers ?
    
    - Brendan
      

    
    	Since I kicked off the debate about the cam belts maybe I should
    	have another tuppence worth here.
    
    	The BMW 318i "F reg" has the onboard "computer" I use the term
    	loosely. There are led's on the dash which light up in order, the
    	closer you get to a service being required. Once the service is due
    	a bright red led comes on.
    	Apparently, it does not matter how many miles have been covered,
    	because the sensors take into account the type of driving that has
    	been done; ie; stop and start, continual high speed, traffic light
    	grand prix's etc. Now, if all of that is true how can they give
    	any recommendation on the life of a cam belt, since the belt must
    	be under the most strain when the engine is hammered from tickover.
    
    	On the spares issue, does anyone out there seriously believe that
    	BMW make their own piece parts. Of course they don't. Just as
    	Marks and Spencer do not make any goods that they sell. I suggest
    	that they both sell quality goods and maintain the quality by
    	using their muscle on the manufacturer.
    	How many of you have returned faulty goods to M&S?
    
    	Bosch probably do all their electrics as an example, as do Lucas
    	for Leyland.
    
    	On the question of cam belts, there are probably only a couple of
    	manufacturers in Europe who make these, Ferodo being the obvious
    	one, who may well have a little printing machine that stamps BMW
    	all over the ones that are supplied to them. So how come they are
    	25% more expensive. 3 year guarantee?? maybe so, but thats what you
    	are paying for. But if your super duper Ferodo BMW cam belt snaps
    	under guarantee guess what you will get? Correct, a new 15 quid
    	belt, and a bill for a grand for a new engine.
    
    	Finally, just one point about the cost of "BMW" parts during a
    	service. Usually all of the parts used on a service are of the type
    	where you will receive absolutely no warranty anyway, pads, plugs
    	oil, screen wash, gaskets, BELTS (would it matter anyway).
    
    	Sorry guys BMW have done an excellent brain washing job on the
    	British public.
    
    	Bill.

    my services on a 318iS have been around 150ish quid - sorry can't
    remember the exact figure. I take it to Wiggins BMW garage in
    Winchester, which I've found to be excellent.
    
    One of BMW's claims is that the engine management system stores
    appropriate information about the running of the car and any faults,
    and this is up-line dumped into an analyser at the garage - it's very
    impressive, I've seen it. Just plug in a cable from the service bay
    into a jack socket in the engine, and all the car's electronic funtions
    are tested electronically and diagnosed if faulty (even on-board
    fuel computer and lights). This is supposed to drastically cut down the
    labour time spent servicing the cars, so reduce costs.
    
    Pete

	I had a BMW and found the service to be thorough and certainly
	not cheap. It tended to escalate if any work other than the
	standard parts was done.

	When I got a 205 I expected the service costs to drop enormously
	but that has not been the case. I'm probably paying 85% of BMW
	rates, and the quality of service received has not been as good.

	Although my 205 is a 1.9, Peugeot apparently� operate a fixed
	rate charge for all 205s, which would seem to make your 1.0 
	Junior an expensive proposition.

	-John

	
	� I say apparently because it's difficult to tell sometimes.

	... however the BMW service indicator thingy is a nasty pain
	which I can happily live without. Basically it's a gimmick
	designed to force you to use BMW service centres.

	-John

    
    I had  a 316 for 2� years and I lost count of the number of times it
    was in for regular attention (ie indicated by the red lights). Over
    the 30,000/2� years I had it it MUST have been in for such things 5
    times.
    
    Now, my Montego has been in once in the first 20,000 miles. I thought
    it was due for a service at 18,000 miles and went in to book it in only
    to be told the service interval was now 12,000 mile, "come back at
    24,000 miles". So just on labour alone I can see what costs PHH (and
    thus us) the least.
    
    However, it has to be said my occasional dealings with Rover at
    Basingstoke and Reading don't even START to compare with the excellent
    service I experienced at Vincents.

    
    
    .... Oh and I wouldn't even BEGIN to start comparing the difference in
    quality. However, in all fairness, the Montego has been 100% reliable
    (so far!).
    
    Richard

    
    What happens if you ignore the BMW red light, assuming of course you
    drive with reasonable care and work on an interval/mileage-based
    service plan. That is, you get a major service done after every 12,000
    miles even if the red light comes on after 9,000. Will the cars
    feelings be hurt after being neglected for so long and pack it in some
    day ?  Does the on-board computer record WHEN the red light first came
    on and tell your BMW dealer what a naughty person you've been at the
    next service ?
    
    I presume the BMW service book does not have mileages printed over each
    entry where service details are recorded, as it depends on when the
    red light comes on. In any case it seems like an individual owner could
    choose whether to service the car according to either the red light or
    mileage/interval methods.
    
    - Brendan
    
    

    
    The Service Light(s) can be re-set *yourself* ! There is a "doobery"
    that you can purchase which re-set the lights. Many self-appointed
    BMW Service Agents have these. Don't know how they work but the do
    re-set the lights.
    
    I read in some blurb that once the "red" light comes on the Engine 
    Management System restricts the "power" and forces a reduction in the
    speed you can go. 
    

re: red light.

 Well it doesn't on mine ...

    
    Try doing a long night journey with a red light (and a yellow, if I
    remember correctly) on. They may not lok that bright but they do start
    to get to you.
    
    No, in my opinion those red lights are a big con. Nothing else.
    
    Richard

    
    Thanks for all the inputs so far. What I'm really looking for are some
    samples of actual service costs which noters have been charged. 
    
    - Brendan
    

    
    
    
    Well this is not a BMW charge, but I was charged DM 211.63 to remove and
    fit a rear light, plastic lens cover last week, this was only the
    removal/refitting charge as the panel was going to be painted and they
    removed the lens first. the removal of the rear wheel to allow them to 
    paint the rear panel also cost me 56 DM.
    
    

Well my dad was charged  �2500 for a MOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for my mums B Reg
528i Automatic.

The service included

-	New steering rack
-	Repair to ABS brakes
-	brake pads
-	windscreen
-	rubber seals around the doors
-	and many more things

The thing that really p**s*d us off was that the car had been serviced a a BMW
dealer since it was new.

and after all that they gave us a BMW brolly!

Grant

>> rubber seals around the doors

Are these MOTable items?  I think not!  Sounds like a rip-off to me!

And if so much needs doing to a not-very-old car, so much for BMW's claim that
their parts are dearer 'cos they last longer!

Scott

It sounds to me like your parents got taken...


-Al

    Re .24...
    
    Cue Derek? :^)
    
    Mark

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    BMW tends  to  get  parts  built up to a standard, not down to a price.
    It's  like  the way we buy chips, screens, drives etc etc.  You can get
    parts off the same assembly line with wildly different quality.

    MY BM  had three green lights left on (after the first major inspection
    about  3,000  Km  ago),  and  after  moderate  run  (300K)  it  came up
    "INSPECTION"  again.   I  thought  about  putting  it in for a service.
    About  two  days  later  the  thing started hesitating and missing.  It
    obviously knew something was wrong.

I'm thinking of buying a 1 year old BMW 518 or 520i. Any owners out there who
can tell me the current cost of a normal service ???

Thanks,

Karen

I can't, but I'm sure your nearest BMW service centre
can!


Ian

Ok, I phoned Cooper of Thames Ditton and got the following prices for a 520i:-

    7500 mile service    105 pounds
    15000 mile service   160 pounds

For my Peugeot 205 XLD I pay very similar prices every 6000 miles !!!

Karen

The thing I've found with BMW garages is that they don't ask you
before they replace things ... if it needs replacing (in their eyes) they
replace it. When I had a Ford, the garage used to phone me for my approval
before replacing anything not covered by the standard service. 

The price you've given is probably the standard service price. Personally
I've never had one of those. The minimum I've ever paid for the service on
my 323i is #250, and that was a long time ago, when the thing was only one
year old.

    
    
   Last year I threw caution to the wind and decided to purchase a 320i.
 Beautiful smooth engine, great body, and fittings well engineered - though
 I must say that the rear drive ruins the car in the wet unless your road
 home is particularly straight.  (Have been passed out by 1.0L Fiesta on
 wet roads!)
    
   I feel that the servicing is a bit of a joke.  With the engine man.
 system it should suffice to have a full diagnostic service once a year
 (or ~12K miles).  This should be signalled by the lights along with
 any fault which may need immediate attention.  In the meantime all
 that should need doing is an oil change and simple DIY which is relatively
 straight forward.  It's the 20-40% more that you pay along with the 
 frequency of the services that really pushes up the cost of running a
 BM.  The BMW service is to a very high standard I must admit - but in
 future they'll only see me once a year!
    
    Anyway, my service history over the past 11 months and 15K miles :
    
    August   '90      Oil change etc      �70      
    October  '90      Front brake pads    �70
    December '90      Oil change etc      �70
    March    '90      Full Service 1     �200
    
    All lights are out again now.  I did an oil/filter change myself though
    last w/e for �20 - much quicker, less hassle and a bit cheaper.  I'm glad
    there was no real work needed on the car.
    
    As a last word - I found Bates of Mordon (?) near Chelmsford very good
 and efficient.   How much are those Fiesta-things ............
                                                                          
              Niall.     
    
          
    
    
    
    
                 
    
    
    

    
    If you do your own servicing on a BMW / Mercedes / Audi / VW / Volvo you 
    might want to stick this suppliers number in your little book - 
    
        Euro Car Parts Ltd, Smethwick, Warley, West Midlands  021-555-5588 
    
    They also have branches in London and Manchester, and the London branch 
    does mail order.
    
    For a BMW 318i, I got ........ Oil Filter     3.00
                                   Air Filter     5.00
                                   Fuel Filter    6.00
                                   Water Pump    16.00
                                                ------
                                                 30.00
                                         Vat      5.26
                                                ------
                                                 35.26  !!!!
       

Do they stock Isetta parts???


Dave

    
    Isetta ?? 
    
    Sounds like the start of a knock, knock joke to me ...
    
    Give them a call and ask them, I forgot to mention they were 
    friendly & efficient as well, and the oil filter was an original BMW part..
    
    Steve