Conference terri::cars_uk

    Re; >What (if any) benefit is there to stay in the Digital UK car
        >leasing scheme these days.
    
    My package is a) Salary + car     or
                  b) Salary + 0
    
    The benefit of staying in the car scheme is that I get a brand new car
    for nothing (ok, so I pay tax on it).
    
    - Roy

    
    Well, you get the use of a brand new car. You can't sell the car,
    buy a cheaper, secondhand one and use the rest of the money for a 
    holiday, can you?
    
    Mark

    Mark, the point I was making is that I don't have an option of getting
    a car _or_ the money. The option I get is a car _or_ nothing.
    
    Having a new car with insurance, road tax, and servicing all free is
    worth the tax I have to pay and in my opinion a lot less worry than
    owning a car.
    
    - Roy
    
    (You seem to have a habbit of contridicting my comments whenever I
    submit a note :-) )

    
    Sorry Roy, if you think I'm getting at you! :^)
    
    I agree entirely that salary + car HAS to be better than salary + 0
    (even if you did choose a Fiasco! :^)). At current levels, you'd have
    to run a very cheap car to pay less than you do in tax. You certainly
    are getting the use of a car on the cheap.
    
    If, however, you have (as I said, but you do not have) the choice of
    taking an equivalent sum in cash (which is/used to be the case for
    some Digital employees), you can spend that on a car and/or something
    else. You could buy, say, a cheaper, older car and a boat, or a 
    timeshare (:^)).
    
    Leasing ties you in, but if you buy a car you can always convert it
    into cash if you need/want to (given the usual disclaimers about HP,
    etc).
    
    Mark

    
    Ah, I said all that about having the choice in a note which I decided
    not to enter. Sorry about that folks! (esp Roy).
    
    Mark

A few of the things one eventually discovers about the lease scheme, too late 
of course :-

Less than 2,500 business miles a year, 1� times standard company car tax.

The company generously offers to let you buy the car at the end of the lease,;
remembering that during the term of the lease you will have paid out at least 
2/3 of the capital cost of the car; for approximately it's trade value. i.e. 
well over priced.

Once you are in the scheme, then opt out, you can *never* re-join, regardless 
of how many years have passed or the changing nature of your job.

Once you have joined the lease scheme, it is *very* difficult, financially, to 
then opt out to purchase your own car.

If you do not qualify for a "company car" i.e. receive the �4nnn company car 
allowance, and you lease a car through Digital, not as a company car, but
paying the lease out of your salary.  Digital still declares that car as a
"Company Car" to the tax man, even though it is not.

If you qualify for a company car, but elect to take the money and not a car.  
The money you receive is the Car allowance minus VAT, this money is then added 
to your Gross Salary and taxed in the normal way.  The nett result of this is 
that you will receive less than �250 a month towards the *TOTAL* cost of 
purchasing, running and maintaining the car.  Needless to say, one cannot buy, 
tax, insure, maintain an equivalent (new) car on that amount a month.

If your job requires it, you have to use *your* car for company travel.  This 
can result in the penalty of further excessive depreciation through having to 
sell a "high mileage" car at the end of all this.

    .4 makes things clearer.
    
    For employees who have the choice of money or a car, then the option to
    take the money makes more sense for the reasons Mark stated.
    
    For the last couple of years new employees have not had the choice.
    
    It wouldn't surprise me if things change in the near future though as
    I've already heard a rumour. (but I wouldn't want to enter it here :-)
    
    - Roy

Car Allowance = �3600 + VAT


The following table came from the Daily Express 20th May, 1991.

It should be fairly obvious that the table assumes petrol is included, but the 
rest seems to be applicable.

The sum we would get (minus VAT, and taxed as part of your salary of course)
would just about run to a cheap 1.0 litre car, nowhere near this oft-quoted 1.6
litre saloon judged suitable.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CAR                 Ford Fiesta   Cavalier      Rover 820     Mercedes
                    1.4 LX CFi    1.8 GL        SLi 16v       300E
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retail Price        �10,002       �12,898       �19,877       �31,162
Tax Band            Up to 1400cc  Up to 2000cc  Over 2000cc   Over �29,000
Insurance           �273          �326          �700          �950
Loan Interest       �960          �1,238        �1,908        �2,992
Lost interest                    
 on deposit         �290          �374          �577          �903
Depreciation        �1,320        �1,908        �3,468        �4,212
Maintenance         �165          �165          �250          �520
RAC Membership      �59           �59           �59           �59
Road Fund Tax       �100          �100          �100          �100
Fuel Consumption    
 (mpg)              38.36         37.55         32.68         26.60
Fuel Cost           �539          �551          �633          �778
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANNUAL COST         �3,706        �4,721        �7,695        �10,514
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plus extra tax*     
Tax on extra pay    �1,482        �1,888        �3,078        �4,205
minus tax on car    �1,012        �1,300        �2,560        �3,920
Total for tax loss  �470          �588          �518          �285
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RISE NEEDED TO MAKE
UP FOR LOSS OF CAR  �4,176        �5,309        �8,213        �10,799
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Depends on individual circumstances but assumes driver is a higher rate 
taxpayer doing less than 18,000 business miles a year and gets petrol for 
private use.

 Just a couple of points:

The way I understand it (and I may be wrong);

The rules about leaving/not rejoining etc the lease scheme are a result of 
the (wierd) way the Inland Revenue treats Digital's scheme re VAT. Currently,
if you contribute some of your salary towards the car, the company is able to 
reclaim the VAT on the entire lease cost, not just on the bit it pays for, so
the contribution you have to make is towards the lease cost NET of VAT.

Apparently, if we could join/leave the scheme at will, Digital could reclaim
VAT only on the part of the lease cost it paid, and your contribution would
have to cover the remaining VAT element ie it would go up for the same car.

Regarding the IR treating a car leased by an employee who does not receive
even the basic allowance as a company car; the amount of the lease 
(net of VAT) is deducted from your gross salary, and you then pay tax on the 
standard company car benefit level.

The alternative is for you to pay for the lease (INCLUDING VAT) out of your 
net salary, and not have it treated as a company car - I think you'll find 
that with the current level of company car benefit, the exisitng method is a
better deal.

If the CC benefit ever gets up to the same level as the basic lease cost+tax,
this might be different

Dave

    re .9
    
    That makes me feel really great!  I changed jobs within the company
    last year and lost my company car and got no compensation whatsoever
    as Digital sees a company car as a tool for the job!
    
    
    

    
    Jane,
    
    Re -a few. Why is the Rover 820 in the over 2 litre bracket? Isn't it
    under 2 litres?
    
    Mark

    
>    Re -a few. Why is the Rover 820 in the over 2 litre bracket? Isn't it
>    under 2 litres?
    
Don't know, I just typed the table in as it was in the paper.

    
    Re. A few back and the poor choice available - consider yourself lucky
    you work for Digital, if you worked for ICL its a Vauxhall or nothing!
    
    Re. The Rover 820 - shouldn't that read "over the �19,250 tax band", not
    "over the 2000cc tax band".
    
    Jeff K.
    

    re .8
    
    Yeh but how would you fit a couple of customers, 2 decstations and you
    briefcase onto a motorbike?
    
    Come on guys the Digital car scheme is *EXCELLENT* when compared to
    most (maybe all) other computer manufacturer's schemes. My friends of
    higher rank than me working for other manufactuers get 
    
    Vauxhall Astra 1.3
    Ford Orion 1.3
    
    and they have a choice of buying up to stuff like the 1.4Sli Rover, or
    the Montego Gti beast - this cost's them about 600 pounds a year before
    tax.
    
    So thing yourself lucky. IMHO we have a very good car scheme.
    
    Greg

    
    Derek's comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. I doubt many 
    companies would provide anyone with a kit car! As .15 says the car
    is, primarily, provided as a business tool and should be capable of 
    fulfilling that role.
    
    IMHAUO, I reckon the choice on the Digital scheme is excellent.
    
    Mark

    
    Looking at it from the other side, I bet a fair number of customers
    would like to be taken to lunch in an exotic sportscar! :^)
    
    Mark

    re: 1463.15
    
    I agree, I think the range of cars offered is excellent; just remember
    what business we are in !!! 
    
    Count yourself lucky that you have any choice at all !!!

    You have to be careful. If customers see you in a flash car they can
    assume your company makes to much money ( and hence you should give
    them a good discount).
    
    Derek - So you want Digital to PAY for your company bike and then PAY
    for transporting stuff because you choose a bike? Somehow I don't think
    they would.
    
    Greg

    
    Re .21
    
    Hence my last notes title! :^)
    
    It can work both ways. Sometimes a nice car can make an impression of
    success and financial well-being that a customer will feel he can rely
    on, but it can, as you say, work the other way too! 
    
    Mark

I'm thinking about what to do with my lease car, when it's due for
renewal in October. SInce I took it on, I've moved location and house, so I
now live 3 miles from the office. My business mileage varies, but it's 
gonna be a maximum of 5,000 a year I guess (but always above 2,500 if
necesary!)

So I have Aa few questions, which VTX and my local personnel department 
aren't too clear on - maybe some one here can help.

1) What is the cash option, for those who can take it? I'm level 9, so 
I get "the basic car" plus �1300 a year at the moment - what is the cash
value of the basic car - would I get the full �4,200 that it's based on
at the moment, or does VAT raise its ugly head somewhere?

2) If I leave the lease scheme, VTX says you cannot rejoin - is this really 
true? What if my job or circumstances change? If I start doing a lot of 
external customer travel, would I be allowed to rejoin?

3) What's the rumour about possible changes? I see the scheme is being
reviewed in "late May/early June" - anyone any idea when we can expect
some details? (Feel free to mail me or phone 782-2464 if you don't wanna
post it here!!)

Peter.

    
    re  the motorbike arguement..........
    
    Someone pointed out the 'additional' costs of transporting kit if the
    person were to travel by bike. I thought that in many cases (for field
    service' type jobs), the kit was delivered separately anyway.
    Everyone's job is different, but, in cases where the person is not normally
    expected to carry kit, then I don't see why a car cannot be borrowed on
    the rare occaisions when it is needed, this more than being compensated
    for by the low cost of running the average 600cc motorbike!  
    
    What happens currently if someone does not have a car, or runs an old
    banger - and they are asked to do something outside of their normal
    job?  eg visit a customer where public transport is not really an
    option?    I agree with Derek - I'd rather the person I was supposed to
    meet turned up on time! 
    
    

Re: .14

>    Re. The Rover 820 - shouldn't that read "over the �19,250 tax band", not
>    "over the 2000cc tax band".

Nope, it says "over 2000cc"...

as I said, not my figures, I just typed it in.


Re: .21

I doubt it. His company maybe, but not digital.

re. .23

> 1) What is the cash option, for those who can take it? I'm level 9, so 
> I get "the basic car" plus �1300 a year at the moment - what is the cash
> value of the basic car - would I get the full �4,200 that it's based on
> at the moment, or does VAT raise its ugly head somewhere?

You would get �4300 added to your salary each year then the usual PAYE 
deductions take place.
It's not added to the base salary though ie it cannot be used towards the ESPP.

> 2) If I leave the lease scheme, VTX says you cannot rejoin - is this really 
> true? What if my job or circumstances change? If I start doing a lot of 
> external customer travel, would I be allowed to rejoin?

I opted for the cash and at the time it was intimated to me that if my
circumstances changed such that I did alot of business miles then the change
could be reversed.

> 3) What's the rumour about possible changes? I see the scheme is being
> reviewed in "late May/early June" - anyone any idea when we can expect
> some details? (Feel free to mail me or phone 782-2464 if you don't wanna
> post it here!!)

Only rumour I've heard is that the �1300 ain't being increased this year.

Hope this helps,

Nigel.

    re the bike argument
    
    How can you argue that 'sorry I'm late, it's because I've got a car" is
    a valid excuse? Just leave earlier!
    
    If I was a customer and someone gave me the above as an excuse I
    wouldn't be over impressed with them from the word go.
    
    Remember we are a computer company, not a racing car/bike/whatever
    company.
    
    Greg

Re: .-2

>I opted for the cash and at the time it was intimated to me that if my
>circumstances changed such that I did alot of business miles then the change
>could be reversed.

The fact that you opted for cash is the reason why you can opt to take a car at 
some future date.

The position as it stands at the moment is that once you take a lease car and 
you subsequently decide to take the cash; you can then never have a lease car 
again.


Peter,

You should get �3600 + �1300 added to your salary, which is then subject to the 
normal PAYE taxes etc.

    
    Dereck,
        Being a customer services engineer I am 100% behind you on the
    "company bike" issue. I have raised this issue with various managers
    and the only excuse that I get is: A) where would you put all your
    manuals. B) The DIGITAL image is not one of motorcyclists. My point is
    that I don't have any manuals in my car that are not at telesupport.
    (only a phone call away), and I when I'm riding the ZX10 I wear full
    leathers that are not covered in grease/torn/scruffy...quite
    presentable for a biker really :-). NOT all bikers wear torn/oily jeans
    and leather jackets that look 40 years old.
    
       When I get the bike back from having its post accident repairs I am
    willing to prove the point that my motorcycle is cheaper, greener and
    quicker (A to B) than any 4 wheel tin box.
    
      Heres the plan: on a bank holiday saturday I am willing to meet any
    car driver in the DEC park car park at 09:00. Leave the car park at
    09:30 and head for Hayling Island (we all know where that is.....don't
    we?). The only catch is that the last person to get there feet wet in
    the sea pays all the expenses (petrol, food, beer etc). I don't care
    what car you take (be it kit form, porshe, ferrari, renault 5 GTT et
    al).
    
    BTW. the average time I take to get to Hayling Island (bank holidays)
    is 78 minutes...
    
    
       Alan.
    

    
    I wonder how much time is wasted in any company because of the "must
    leave an hour early for an appointment - just in case" and then
    spending most of that hour sat in a cafe round the corner from the
    place of the meeting?  Yes, you may be able to do some constructive
    work in that time in the cafe - but how often? 
    
    Motorcyclist does not equal greasy yob - and the sooner companies
    realise this and allow those people for whom it is a sensible
    alternative, to have a company/lease bike, instead of a 4-wheel 
    member of a traffic jam, the better for all road users!

    I don't have a company bike but I too ride one, I can put manuals in
    the panniers, topcase. I do got to customer site quite freqently on it
    and they would never know. I stash the waterproofs and helmet in the
    panniers. It's still cheaper in every respect although the cost price
    is higher than a small car, say a metro or something like that. I would
    have thought a nice shinny BMW K100LT says enough about the person
    riding it and also poo poos the idea that you cant carry manuals.
    
    
    Garry
    

    As a contributor to a recent review of the lease scheme, I find this
    topic particularly useful and relevant.
    
    Could I therefore politely ask the "motorbike vs car" debaters to take
    their discussion to another topic.
    
    Thanks,
    
    JohnK

      Further rumours that I have heard (completely un-substantiated at the 
      present time) include the time period of the lease. This will be 
      50,000 miles, HOWEVER long that takes to be achieved.

    
    Having been 'in' the scheme, opted out and then opted back in
    again recently I think the rules are not strictly enforced...
                                       
    I believe all of this "opting" business is at Personnel's 
    discretion, and from various hints in here it seems that
    this is all under review again anyway?
    
    Re: Jane's reply to the cash alternative....
    
    I think the cash alternative to the basic supplement is still
    �3000 and this won't be reviewed until July, when it should
    become "basic supplement - 15% VAT". 
    
                             

>    Re: Jane's reply to the cash alternative....
    
>    I think the cash alternative to the basic supplement is still
>    �3000 and this won't be reviewed until July, when it should
>    become "basic supplement - 15% VAT". 
 
I checked with our local personnel rep. this afternoon and it is currently
�3000 (plus where appropriate the market supplement currently �1300 for L8/9). 
I think that should say 17.5% VAT.

Cheers,

Nigel.   
                             

Re: 34

>      Further rumours that I have heard (completely un-substantiated at the 
>      present time) include the time period of the lease. This will be 
>      50,000 miles, HOWEVER long that takes to be achieved.

The rumour that I heard (completely un-substantiated at the present time) 
was that FLEET were considering changing the lease contract to 
60,000 miles/3 years.

I've just rung fleet, to confirm when my current lease is up; I ordered a
car last summer, on a 40,000 miles/year, 15 month lease, and I wanted to
check whether it was October or November it would be due for replacement.

The nice lady in fleet checked on the computer, and the date is

          2nd February, 1993  (this is not a misprint!)

Apparantly, with the new EDI system in place, all orders are based on a 30
month contract - even though my order specified a shorter time, this is
ignored, and you have to send a memo to fleet to reduce the lease time!!!

It's a great shame that no-one bothered to tell anyone about this.

So, if you think your lease is for less than 30 months, and you ordered 
a car after the EDI system was implemented, then think again......

Peter.

    If a car is doing 40,000 miles per year, would it not be worth the
    lease company taking the car back before a certain milage is reached,
    60,000 miles say ?
    
    When a car has done a certain milage the cost of maintenance will
    increase, breakdown will become more frequent ( cost of hire car to
    lease  company ) etc , I would have thought that the lease company
    would have a formula involving milage, cost of maintenace at this
    milage and re-sale value of car ( The re-sale value can make or break
    the profit for the company ) .
    
                            KR

    I think there are some mis-conceptions in here regarding the sheme so
    let me try and express my understanding.
    
    Currently all drivers are charged on a 30,000miles/30mnoths cost. If
    you anticpate a higher mileage rate than that, the lease company
    charges a hogher rate, and Digital (through the flat charge to the CC)
    picks up the difference. There is a mileage cap that you may change
    your car at (50,000 I think), even though less than the 30 months may
    have elapsed.
    
    Also, Car Fleet administer the scheme and *implement* changes. However
    it's the Personnel Committee, at which all functions are represented
    who review and recommend changes to the scheme. I beleive the BOM is
    the final approval authority.
    
    JK

    
    rathole re .39 --
    
    
    It's not the EDI element of our new fleet system that determines 30 months.
    EDI can handle whatever the company throws at it -- it just transports
    the information.
    
    It's the procedures that changed. 
    
    
    Colin Osborne, European Marketing Manager, EDI -- who rides a m/c to
    business meetings, & leaves his company grotbox in the garage whenever
    possible. 

re .40

>    picks up the difference. There is a mileage cap that you may change
>    your car at (50,000 I think), even though less than the 30 months may
>    have elapsed.

This is not true. You have to stick it out to the bitter end of 30 months (well
maybe a bit less if your new car gets delivered early). My last car was over 
57K and my current one is >52K with 3 months left to run.

Nigel

    RE .41
    
    which only goes to prove that 1) a computer's only as good as the idiots
    put in front of it and 2) to screw things up **PROPERLY** takes a
    computer......
    
    

    re:42
    
    Well, my car has almost 50,000 miles exactly, and should be replaced on
    1/8 by a shiny new leasemobile. The current motor was delivered on 8/8/89,
    i.e. a two-year lease.
    
    When I ordered the current Batmobile, I stated that I'd do 25,000 per
    annum. This gave me a two year lease. As it happens, I'm actually doing
    27,000, so the total when I get shot of it will be around 54,000.
    
    Mind you, if you've not already had a delivery date for your new car,
    you could be looking at 60,000 miles/3 years, or so I've heard. Ooops, I
    never said that ;-)
    
    Colin

    Has anyone investigated the 'personal' lease schemes advertised in
    What Car etc. Would it be worth while opting out of Digital's scheme
    and taking up your own private lease?
    
    Greg

>>    Has anyone investigated the 'personal' lease schemes advertised in
>>    What Car etc. Would it be worth while opting out of Digital's scheme
>>    and taking up your own private lease?


you really need to have your own company to make this worthwhile (for
various tax benefit reasons).


...art

    
    re -1 
    
    Also you have to find your own insurance too!

    
    There are some 'lease' schemes advertised, which effectively involve
    you renting the car for a period and having all the bills paid
    inclusively. The car isn't yours, but unlike a company lease scheme
    (individual's can't lease I don't think) you don't get any of the tax
    advantages.
    
    The upshot is you get a similar scheme to Digital's, but as .47 points
    out you usually have to get your own insurance.
    
    Some dealers also do a purchase scheme with pre-paid servicing. This
    a real con, unless you manage to buy a VERY unreliable car, get an
    extended warranty, it's cheaper!

    RE. Leasing
    
    You will find it quite difficult to lease if not through a company,
    Limited or otherwise, although the adverts dont say this.
    
    I have been offered two types, "lease hire" and "lease purchase". With
    lease hire you dont own the vehicle at the end, but are often offered the 
    vehicle at trade price.  With lease purchase the car is yours at the
    end of the contract. Variations exist, for example you may agree the
    'balloon payment' up front, or include maintenance.  With lease hire
    you can reclaim the VAT element and offset costs before tax.  With the
    lease purchase I think the VAT is not reclaimable.
    
    Unless you are going through a company insurance scheme, the insurance
    is in your court.  
    
    Most leasing companies reaquire atleast 3months in advance, some
    require 6months.  Some examples seen recently;
    
                                Deposit     Monthly cost
    Ford Fiesta 1.1LX           � 793.98    36x�264.66
    Vauxhall Nova 1.2LUXE       � 793.53    36x�264.51
    BMW 525i                    �2232.00    36x�744.00
    Nissan 200 SX               �1746.00    36x�582.00
    
    I dont know the cost of the Fiesta new, but by the lease it will be 
    �10,322 ( then minus 17�% VAT, offset against 25% CT, plus the cost
    to you personally via your tax code, plus your insurance ).   
    
    Quite often the Hondas+Toyotas+Nissans are more expensive if you take
    the maintenance (e.g. The CRX was �300 less than my PUG but the leasing
    was �60 extra per month for the CRX).
    
    Tony.
    

    I read something the other day about ford doing a lease scheme for Jo
    public but cant remember where. Basically you choose a car ford then
    work out what the value of that car would be in 2 years time, then
    divide the depreciation into 24 months and thats what you pay. I seem
    to recall thata 1.4 fiasco was about 220 quid per month (didnt say
    wether this included maintenance etc).
       When the lease is over you can have the option to sell it privately
    and pocket the extra if you've if you sell it for more than the agreed
    price the ford said it would be worth 2 yrs previous.
    
    
    worth thinking about if the resale values are reasonable!
    
    Regards Martin

    Yesterdays Sunday Times (Business section) had some interesting
    comments on this subject...
    
    Jc

I assume that it's OK to post this here as it is addressed to all Car
Scheme Members and meant to be sent today, but I would imagine many
have not received it yet.

Jon

                           EMPLOYEE INFORMATION
    
    
    Subject: Car Scheme                            Date: 25th June 1991
    
    
    To: Car Scheme Members                         From: Alastair Wright
    
    
    
    Dear Colleagues,
    
    Providing employees with a flexible and competitive range of benefits 
    is still an integral part of Digital's philosophy.  As a member of the 
    Digital car lease plan you will be aware that it offers the individual 
    a great deal of choice and flexibility. 
    
    The current business climate is tough, particularly in the computer 
    industry.  Digital intends to stay competitive in the market-place not 
    only by improving service to its customers, but by ensuring that costs 
    within the organisation are contained. 
    
    The cost to Digital of providing its employees with cars is �26 million 
    each year.   In line with current business practice, Digital has 
    reviewed the car scheme to determine the most cost effective way of 
    providing the benefit whilst remaining competitive. 
    
    The important conclusion reached in that review is that Digital will 
    continue to provide a car lease plan and one which will continue to 
    offer members choice and value for money. There will, however, be a 
    number of changes to the scheme, effective as of July 1st 1991, which 
    will enable us to contain cost. 

    Some of the following may not be relevant to you if you are: 
    - a supplement holder who has opted for the cash equivalent. 
    - a member of the scheme not eligible for the supplement.

    

                                 KEY CHANGES 

   Leases
    
    * All current leases will be extended by 6 months.  If you have a 
    replacement car on order which was due for delivery after July 1st you 
    should assume it will not be delivered unless you are advised to the 
    contrary by Fleet Administration. 

    The impact this has on the business is an immediate saving of �709,000.
    
    * All new leases will run for 36 months except for some high business 
    mileage users where a shorter lease term may be appropriate.  The 
    driver cost of all new leases will be based on 36 months/36,000 miles.  
    
    This new lease structure will not only save the company �617,000 per 
    annum but should also reduce the cost to individual employees.
    
    Choice and Flexibility
    
    * As now, members will still be free to choose any vehicle.  However it 
    will be beneficial to select a vehicle from the company's extensive 
    list of cars which will be on a fixed price basis.  The list, which 
    will be available in September, will include the most popular and 
    competitively priced vehicles.  For these models the lease price will 
    remain fixed throughout the financial year.  If a selected car is not 
    on the list, it can still be ordered but the driver price will be based 
    on the actual cost at the time of order for a 36 months/36,000 miles 
    lease.  Today, the company is subsidising these cars.
    
      
    Insurance
    
    * The insurance element in the driver price for all new leases will now 
    be graded according to the insurance risk grouping of the particular
    vehicle chosen, as published in " What Car" magazine. This information 
    will also be available in September.  Today the insurance charged on 
    every car is the same - �200.  In future it will be loaded according to 
    the insurance group of the car.  This does not affect existing leases.
    
    Supplements
    
    * Supplements have been reviewed and it has been determined that it is 
    not necessary to increase the supplements or cash equivalents for most 
    people on July 1st.  Exceptions to this will be eligible employees 
    below level 8 who have opted to take the cash equivalent and those 
    level 12 and above, (of which there are seventeen).

    Pool vehicles
    
    * The only pool vehicles available will be vans, there will be no new 
    pool cars.  Existing pool cars will not be renewed at the end of their 
    lease period.          

    This will save Digital �200,000.
    
    Returned cars
    
    * Employees will be given the opportunity to lease cars returned by 
    someone who has left the company before the expiry date of the lease, 
    at a discounted price, which is yet to be determined. 
    
    
    FURTHER INFORMATION
    
    
    Full details of the revised car scheme will be available during 
    September 1991 from cost centre managers.  This message seeks to 
    explain clearly where things impact you today.

    If you have any questions which cannot wait until September then talk 
    to your HRO representative.

The memo in .53 tells me that "some of the following may not be
relevant to" me as I am not eligable for the Supplement, without
specifying what. I'd like to know if I'm expected to accept my lease,
which I am paying for entirely myself, being extended from 30 to 36
months without the monthly payments being reduced?

If so, I am not very happy :-[.

The other question I have is whether the mileage cap has stayed at
50,000 or been increased to the rumoured 60,000.  I might well do 50k
miles within 36 months.

The insurance weighting of sporty cars is another blow.  I guess the
number of MR2's in the car park will decline from now on...

Jon

In the mail, it says it costs Digital �26 million pounds to provide the cars
I have two questions - does this include the employee contribution, and how
many cars do we lease?

If we lease 4,000 cars (which seems high, given just over 5,000 employees)
this works out at �6,500 per car - since the maximum the company
pays is just over �4,000 per car, where does the extra �2,500 go?

In insurance? Admin?

Peter.

    The desire to save money is obviously right in the current business
    climate.  I don't have any great problem about leases being extended by
    six months (although my DECmobile will have done 75000 miles if kept to
    36 months) but it is essential that WE also benefit from the reduced
    lease costs - after all, it is US that are subject to a pay freeze, we
    could do with a little relief.
    
    Richard
    

    Re:-1
    
    Should we also share from the increase in insurance cost ??????
    
    

    My guess is that the "Standard" cars will carry an element of
    insurance cost related to their group. This will determine the amount
    of the car supplement (not Market supplement) that will go to the
    insurance dept for their services..... on cars that are specially
    quoted, there will be an insurance cost related to the group of the
    car: if that's more than the "standard" allowance ALL the difference
    will be charged to the driver.
    
    Looks like the day of the exotica is over........

	From VTX Carfleet NEWSFLASH


*******************************   IMPORTANT   ********************************

"In line with Company Policy all existing leases are to be extended by six
months.  Please refer to the Personnel memorandum dated 25th June 1991.

As from 1st July 1991 all lease terms will be calculated based on 60K miles.
All orders presently due for delivery on or after 1st July will be cancelled.
Any quotes currently in the system are no longer valid.  Fleet will be working
any exceptions to the above rule over the next month, and will advise any
employee affected accordingly."
*******************************   IMPORTANT   *******************************
 

>>*******************************   IMPORTANT   ********************************
>>
>>"In line with Company Policy all existing leases are to be extended by six
>>months.  Please refer to the Personnel memorandum dated 25th June 1991.
>>
>>As from 1st July 1991 all lease terms will be calculated based on 60K miles.

	WHERE did this 60k miles come from???

	I have just re-read the announcement and it CLEARLY states 36000/36 
        months. Who has dreamt up 60,000 I wonder...

    Wonder what the "selected  car list" will have on it? Standard Siera's
    Cavilers etc?
    I have no problems with this new policy, it may well turn out for the
    best if this selected list gives us good deals.
    
    Greg

    The savings come because for any lease coming to it's end the company
    is paying it's contribution at the level of late 1988/1989, I think
    between �2700 and �3000. Any new lease they would have to pay the new
    rate of I think about �4500 (can't check, VTX have wiped all the
    quotes!). 
    
    Thus as leases are constantly being renewed, they've effectively
    generated a 6 month window where there will be no new leases, and no
    increase in company payment of �1000 - �1500 per car.
    
    OK, I think if this helps the company in it's cash flow then at least
    it means a few less redundancies. Personally I'm happy with my car, and
    don't mind an extra six months, but then I haven't had it a year yet.
    
    If your on the path to change, then your mind is set on change, you've
    mentally geared up by rejecting your present car (although you must
    have thought it the best thing since sliced bread to have ordered it!)
    then it can be demoralising.
    
    However, things that spring to mind are:
    
    1	For those who've decided the tax is too much and intended coming out,
    	can they still leave after their original commitment?. 
    
    2	When I did the figures just last year to see if an external lease was
    	better value, it was clear there was a substantial reduction over those
    	extra 6 months, due mainly to depreciation flattening out. Who will
    	reap the benefit of this change?, the lease companies (I damn well hope
    	not!) Or the company (maybe they negotiated a deal to get a claw-back)
    	again as long as it reduces the lieklyhood of redundancy I don't feel
    	bad about it.
    
    And finally, I hadn't thought of the case where you might want to take
    a cheaper car on the scheme, yes it will mean you have to wait longer.
    But if you take the cheaper car aren't you then likely to be paying
    over the odds for car-tax?. Don't know your case, and if your doing in
    excess of 2500 company miles, but if your not, then unless you take a
    less than 1400 cc car a lease of less than 4250 (which is the tax
    penalty) would mean you are paying MORE tax than if you took the cash.
    
     
    I guess the biggest question on my mind currently is number 2.
    
    Richard
    

    I like the idea that cars available for takeover will be discounted.
    
    As for the 36k/60k question. The way I interpreted it the car should be
    kept for 3 years or longer if 36000 miles hadn't been reached BUT as
    the majority of cars would do a higher mileage the lease is BASED on
    60000 miles.
    
    I'm sure a lot of us who cover over 20k miles a year would like to know
    if there is an upper limit to the mileage, because in 3 yrs at my
    current rate I would be nearing the 80k mark !
    
    I'm looking forward to seeing what is on offer in the "fixed price"
    list of cars, cav's and sierras no doubt :-(
    
    - Roy

    From my knowledge base (and as I've said before).......
    
    I'll use the new month/mileage bands, but you can substitute the old if
    you wish......
    
    The lease cost to *all* employees is based on 36months/36000 miles.
    However, if your anticipated mileage is greater than 36,000, the lease
    company charges the company a higher amount. This cost is borne by the
    Company (or to put it another way, the rest of us!). If the anticpated
    mileage will exceed 60,000 in 36 months, the lease period can be for
    less than 36 months.
    
    So, anyone out there whinging about there car having done 50,000 miles
    and now they have to keep it for another six months and shouldn't they
    get a rebate, etc, etc, is not getting much sympathy from me.
    
    I believe the Company will collect the savings on extending the
    existing lease contracts. I'd rather they did that than fire good
    people who we may well need when the economy turns around.
    
    JK

    Just a thought - does this mean that the Car Fleet department will have
    nothing to do for six months?
    
    Jeff.

>    Just a thought - does this mean that the Car Fleet department will have
>    nothing to do for six months?
    
>    Jeff.


Nope - they will be too busy taking the flak ;-)

Jc

.66�	Nope - they will be too busy taking the flak ;-)
    
    Which seems very hard on them... its  not their fault... they only
    implement the policies decided on by Management...

    > So, anyone out there whinging about there car having done 50,000
    > miles and now they have to keep it for another six months and shouldn't
    > they get a rebate, etc, etc, is not getting much sympathy from me.

    JK I don't think anyone is looking to you for sympathy, however there
    are some issues here.

    When I ordered my car I specified an annual mileage of 24k miles a year
    and was given a 30 month lease. I was told if I put 25k miles the lease
    would be shortened to 24 months (I wish I did now!).

    This doesn't stack with 50k the figure as 24k x 2.5 = 60k.

    Has anyone got recent experience of contacting fleet as their car
    reached 50k long before the lease was up ? What was the result ? Did
    they suggest you takeover another car or order early ?

    With the 6 month extension and no mileage limit, there sure is gonna be
    a lot of high mileage lease cars out there.

    - Roy.

    What's the problem??
    
    Most cars these days will happily top 100K miles with no trouble.
    
    I've been in auctions where 3 year old company cars with 150K miles
    on the clock were sold.
    
    Huw. 

re .64;

the mail explicitly talks about "All new leases will run for 36 months 
except for some high business mileage users where a shorter lease may
be appropriate."

If you do a high private mileage, then the servicing garage is gonna
love you for the business you'll put their way over three years....
not to mention the tyres, exhausts, etc.

but it isn't going to do much for the lease, as maintenance and depreciation
will be horrific.

re a couple back; almost anything will sell at an auction, at a price.

And of course, high mileage vehicles are never clocked, are they????

Peter.

     I think this depends on the type of car you have, if you own a turbo
     or a highly tuned car, by 100k miles melt down would have occured!!
     And if you have a normal middle of road car eg, cavalier, escort,
     then you should be pleased about the new scheme guidelines ie,
     
     'It will be beneficial to select a vehicle from the company's extensive
     list of cars which will be on a fixed price basis.  The list, which
     will be available in September, will include the most popular and
     and competively priced vehicles'
    
     This obviously means cavaliers,escorts etc !

     Stewart.

    
    re .71
    
>     And if you have a normal middle of road car eg, cavalier, escort,
    
    I think you've chosen the wrong place to talk to people who like 
    that sort of thing, and who will sympathise with people who like the
    same :-)
    
    
    Nigel

    
    I'm afraid the lease scheme has a chequered history recently.
    
    Like many, I chose a reasonable motorcar & contributed heavily towards
    it. This choice was based on the offer given to me at the start of the
    lease that I could buy the car at the end of 30 months. (As an aside, I
    was not told by the recruiting manager when I joined that I could just 
    take the cash  -- sad, as that is what I would have done, & nipped down 
    to Blackbushe & bought a 2 year-old XJS for less than my company wagon
    cost). 
    
    As 30 months got near, the offer to buy was unilateraly removed across 
    the company. Attempts to regain the contract terms I had been offered 
    on joining the company were dismissed out of hand....
    
    Later, the purchase capability was reinstated. By then, my car was way
    the other side of 50k/30 months so I've continued to run it. Car Fleet
    are now asking why I haven't changed it, as it is 3yrs 5 months old,
    with 68k miles. 
    
    Two reasons --
    
    a. I'm due to vanish into deepest Europe, but negotiations have been
       on-going for six months now. Not sensible to incur extra cost for
       new car in UK if I promptly vanish overseas.
    
    b. Difficult to justify expense of changing, when I have a reliable &
       quick motorcar for business use. 
    
    
    I'll be quite happy to revert to the cash option -- I've got a
    fully-equipped garage with welding gear, lathes etc so I'm relaxed with
    doing the maintenance. Insurance can be a bore, but if you're careful
    in choosing your source, even Group 9 is a non-problem (eg Jaguar
    Owners Club -- helps if you have a Jag, & are a wrinkly!).
    
    I can't see one car introduced in the last 12 months that excites me 
    much more than a suitable secondhand year-old car depreciated at auction
    to half (or less) of its current list price. My Mazda 626GT will get
    about #3k at auction on a good day for the seller (old, largish, above 
    average mileage, hard used, non-fashionable -- although that may change 
    since Sunday!). It's a snip ..... & cheaper to buy at auction than to 
    buy it direct from the company. 
    
    Don't forget that the #19250 / 2 litre tax excitements vanish when you
    buy your own -- especially important as these are precisely the cars 
    that take the biggest depreciation hit in the first few months of their 
    life, & become affordable very quickly.
    
    Horses (or horse-power) for courses. Plenty of staff want the
    reassurance of full motoring protection, & are willing to pay heavily 
    for it. Others are able to provide self-cover in a variety of different
    ways. Certainly don't fancy the prospect of boring tin, or over-priced 
    non-standard options --- may not come to that, because we don't know all
    the details, but remains a risk. 
    
    You wait till you see my customers winding themselves into a Mini-Marcos
    ... at least they'll have something to remember. I'll think more than
    twice about taking it on the regular Valbonne & back that I do now with
    the Mazda............. 
    
                          
    The timing of the announcement is good -- think of all those low-mileage 
    ex-fleet cars due to be changed within the next few weeks as August 
    looms ..........
    
    
     

	
	Now, I understand the state of the computer industry, and that Digital
	is not in good shape right now, and of course I am prepared to do what
	is necessary to help reverse the trend. Clearly the organisation has got
	to cut its overheads so I guess it was only a matter of time before the
	lease scheme came under scrutiny.

	Personally, I have awlays thought that changing cars every 30 months was
	a bit OTT, I don't have a problem keeping a car for three years. I do 
	have a problem however, with the proposed process....let me explain.

	My car was up for change in August, so I now have to wait until February
	before I can renew it, fair enough. When I took on the car I was quoted
	a driver price of �2,200 per annum, based on a 30 month lease period.
	This is being extended by a further 6 months, so the cost to Digital
	must be a big reduction as the car has effectively been paid for during
	the 30 months I have had it. Seems strange to me that I have to keep 
	paying the full drivers rate for the next 6 months....certainly feels
	like one big rip-off to me!

	Insurance?..No problem. If you decide to drive the fast car (as I do),
	then you should be prepared to pay for it...seems reasonable to me.

	Running cost to Digital �26,000,000...really? 

	Pam Dormer once told me Digital had 3,500 company lease vehicals, and 
	that was before the redundancies started. Therefore the average cost 
	per vehicle works out to �7,428 per year. 
	
	What is everyone driving? 

	Porsches?

	<<Joe>>
	

    Last week (Thurs/Friday), they started putting quotes back onto the
    lease scheme. It was apparent that the value of the 'base supplement'
    had gone down marginally. (I guess 'cause the lease lenght had gone up,
    sounds reasonably sensible).
    
    However, today, all the quotes have disappeared from the system again.
    These gremlins in the works have a lot to answer for. Not that I'm too
    fussed, I'm sure the new quotes would only demonstrate that my car will
    have become much cheaper !!
    
    Colin

    re .-1 >> all the quotes have disappeared 
    
    Apparently vtx will no longer be used for lease quotes :-(
    
    Whereas previously you were are allowed only two quotes, now you can 
    submit more than this (suggested number is 4).
    
    Presumably this will save money with admin on vtx. However, I thought
    it cost digital an admin charge each time a quote was submitted.
    
    If this is the case it will be impossible apart from hearsay to get an
    idea of lease costs for various models.
    
    Can I suggest a note is started to post your quotes so everyone can see
    how the costs are going. 
    
    Maybe the quotes will be displayed somewhere else, if not it seems a
    waste as only the person submitting the quote would be able to order
    from it, as noone else would have visability.
    
    - Roy

re .76;

where did you hear VTX wasn;t going to be used?

Or is Radio 210 now the official line of communication........

Peter.

    
>    Whereas previously you were are allowed only two quotes, now you can 
>    submit more than this (suggested number is 4).
    
>    Presumably this will save money with admin on vtx. However, I thought
>    it cost digital an admin charge each time a quote was submitted.
    
>    If this is the case it will be impossible apart from hearsay to get an
>    idea of lease costs for various models.
    
>    Maybe the quotes will be displayed somewhere else, if not it seems a
>    waste as only the person submitting the quote would be able to order
>    from it, as noone else would have visability.
 
    So maybe there is an element of personal liability here ? i.e. for
    a go faster thingy wotsit the quote for a 22 year old with a number
    of accidents might be substantially more than the quote for the same
    car for a 'safe' 35 year old. If so, I applaud.
    
    Rich
       
    - Roy

    And hopefully a 35 year old with a series of speeding, accident and
    drink/drive incidents behind them would be similarly handicapped
    compared with a blemish free licence holding 22 year old?
    
    Yeah, some hopes...
    
    Mark

    �re .76; where did you hear VTX wasn;t going to be used?
    
    A colleague phoned fleet to ask if they could submit a quote 'cos there
    wasn't anything in vtx and .76 is the answer they got.
    
    - Roy (Sorry, should've included the source :-) )

 >   So maybe there is an element of personal liability here ? i.e. for
 >   a go faster thingy wotsit the quote for a 22 year old with a number
 >   of accidents might be substantially more than the quote for the same
 >   car for a 'safe' 35 year old. If so, I applaud.


I didn't think it was going to work like that. The insurance that is transferred
onto the driver price will be a fixed amount depending on the insurance 
group of the car, irrespective of the driver's driving history or age.


ian

I agree with Ian in .81 that the impression that has so far been given
is that the extra charge for high insurance group cars will be
regardless of the driver involved.  As I fit pretty closely with the
"22 year old with a number of accidents," which Rich mentioned (I'm
just a year older), I'm glad of that!

There doesn't appear then, to be any reason for removing the quotes
from VTX. If, however, there will be some varience of price depending
on driver's circumstances, this must be calculated by Fleet as an
adjustment to the cheaper of the quotes from PHH and Hertz, so there is
still nothing to stop them from displaying the 'raw' quotes on VTX.

If the quotes are removed from VTX, it will vastly increase Fleet's
workload as people will have to individually submit quotes for every
model they are interested in instead of being able to narrow it down
from other people's quotes.  It will also increase the average cost of
employee's cars as we won't be able to jump on the bandwagon of a
relatively cheap quote which someone else has received.

I hope this turns out to be a misunderstanding.

Jon
 

    I too hope that quotes will still appear on VTX.
    
    We go around bragging how our quotes are handled electronically with
    EDI etc, so it costs next to nothing to extract the data and format it
    for VTX - the code MUST be already written!
    
    Sounds VERY suspicious to me,
    
    mb

The original statement about the lease scheme changes referred
to a fixed price list of cars (probably meaning Fords, Vauxhalls)
and that this would be available in September. Maybe, this will
go onto VTX and any car not quoted on that list will require a
quote to be submitted.

Just a thought!


ian

    Removing quotes from VTX will take away the Control element in finding
    a quote for a car .
    
            E.G.  1) The "ABC GTI 16V" car looks nice and the price in What
                     Car Show quotes X pounds on the road.
                  
                  2) Check simular spec. quote in VTX ....
     
                  3) Decide that X per year is too much to pay.
    
                  4) Go to step 1
    
                     
    This will create more work for car fleet in producing simular quotes
    over and over again .                       

    Re .84
    
    I agree Ian that crossed my mind as well, but what is the harm or the
    problem with including the other quotes.
    
    I wonder if its for a 'political reason' or just the fact that its an
    admin overhead to enter new quotes and remove old ones in vtx.
    
    Its a shame this isn't communicated to us all.
    
    - Roy

    Re: .86
    
>    admin overhead to enter new quotes and remove old ones in vtx.
    
    There _should_ be NO admin overhead. The new quotes were generated
    between 21:00 and 22:00 each evening, presumably by some fancy program.
    If they have to be done by hand, then perhaps we should first consider
    automating Fleet as a cost-saving measure!
    
    I just has to be politics, to try to discourage people from choosing
    exotic (i.e. non-standard) cars.
    
    Perhaps fleet could put an entry in VTX telling us what is happening?
    
    mb

    
    There are some quotes (4/5) on the VTX system, not too sure how they
    compare though, I wonder if this means we are back in business.
    
    
    Shaz

    I've been informed by personnel (human resources if you prefer), that a
    decision has been made to put quotes back on vtx.
    
    This is good news, but I wonder what the reason was for taking them off ?
    
    - Roy

Hmm, now let me see . a Rover 214 GSi, with metallic paint as the only option.

List price is �12,975, and the lease cost is �4574 / 579.

Since the base car is (or was) the Cavalier 1.6 L, and it's cost is �11,340,
I can only presume that the Rover isn't one ofthe standard 'core' models,
as it's extra lease cost over three years is �1737, for an increase over the
base car of �1635, plus a hundred quid or whatever for the metallic.

It'll be interesting to actually get some details next month of just how this
is all gonna work.

Peter.

    Having just a few minutes ago sent a mail to Fleet asking what was
    happening about quotes on VTX, I now discover this subject is being
    aired in Notes!  (I even raised this subject as a reply to Note
    1525...)
    
    With regard to .89, is the decision to put quotes back on VTX
    permanent, or is it a temporary measure until the 'basket of quotes' is
    available?        
    
    Ian
    

    At the risk of asking a question which might have been aired elsewhere,
    can anyone tell me the rationale for cars in the standard 'basket of
    quotes' being cheaper than those ordered through non-standard quote? 
    Surely it can't be anything to do with bulk purchase discounts, as PHH
    and Hertz must already buy so many cars from the major manufacturers
    that they get the maximum discount available.
    
    It will be interesting to see what the policy will be regarding having
    garage-fitted extras (e.g. mud flaps; sun-roof deflectors; roof rack
    bars...etc) added to the 'standard' cars.  Will this then make them
    'non-standard' and hence subject to whatever loading is applied to cars
    that are completely non-standard?  Or will the cost of the extras
    simply be added to the standard cost and spread over the lease period?
    
    Ian
       

    Ref .90, ignore my mention of Note 1525, it should have read Note 483
    in the MARVIN::UK_DIGITAL conference!
    
    I'll go away now...
    
    Ian
    

    I have just received the reply to the message to Fleet that I mentioned
    in .91.  It is from Robert Allen, and I quote:
    
    'There shouldn't be any quotes advertised on VTX until September.  I
    will request a call be logged to get then removed.'
    
    Am I confused?  Is Car Fleet confused?  
    
    Ian
    
    PS In my correction in .93, I should have referred back to .91, not
    .90.  I'm definitely confused!
    

I was hoping the fixed price list would be set out with a driver
price dor the base model, then �xxx for a sunroof, �yyy for
an alarm, �zzz for metallic paint and so on. So you can just 
choose your optional extras and get an instant price.

We'll have to wait till September to see!!


Ian

Friends company have a standard list, then YOU pay one fixed price for
the extra ie 800 for metallic paint etc.

Greg

    Wouldn't that be a neat idea ?
    
    x pounds for car, y for abs, z for metallic etc. etc - sort of like
    shopping at Sainsburys !!
    
    Rich
    

> sort of like shopping at Sainsburys !!

Yep! 

An expensive way of getting something

:^))

    Doesn't this mean individual pricing, the opposite of what they're
    trying to do??.
    
    Richard

    OK, its September. Where is the "extensive list" of fixed price cars
    available on the lease scheme ?
    
    I've checked vtx but the "recent quotes" section is still empty :-(
    
    I assume this list will be posted in vtx, anyone know different ?
    
    - Roy

They didn't tell us when in September. 




Ian

    re .100
    I asked car fleet. It will be near the end of september.
    
    Andrew

    Thanks Andrew, any idea how cars will be listed ?
    
    When I first heard about this I imagined he list would only
    contain "popular" cars like cavaliers, sierras, escorts etc. 
    but its now rumoured to contain 200 cars !
    
    Guess we'll have to wait and see.
    
    - Roy

    200 may not be that many... Ford and Vauxhall make nearly 200
    model variants between them...

You beat me to it.  A list of 200 could include Cavalier L
cavalier GL, Cavalier GLS, etc, etc and then of course
there's extras on some models like Cavalier L with ABS,
with power steering, with ABS and power steering.

Ian

    A "new starter" with Digital who happens to be sitting near me has been
    speaking to Fleet.  He has managed to get the following info:
    
    	1. New scheme will be launched at end of September.
    
    	2. Will be on VTX
    
    	3. With contain two lists:
    
    		a) Popular cars
    		b) Popular extras
    
    	   Both lists will have prices against them and you can mix and
    	   mach cars with extras.
    
    Hopefully this answers one of my queries; i.e. would I have to get a
    personal quote if I required ABS on a car in the bucket?  Seems
    probably not.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike B.

    I've got a friend who works for data general. and they get to chose 	
    their cars off a standard list. 
    
    All the model variants are listed like Astra L, SXi, GTE etc...
    it also lists the lease cost and the amount of money they have to fork out 
    if they want a flashier car.
    
    I'm not sure what happens with 'options' though, but it sounds a good
    idea to me.
    
    Huw.

    
    Re. 105.
    
    I'm told that if you take all the model variants in the standard Ford
    catalogue, mix and match with all the different options available for
    those models you come up with in excess of 1,000,000 'different' cars.
    
    Not many people know that - there again not many people want to !!
    
    Rich
    

    Well I was told there were more variant combinations in the Ford range
    than cars made by Ford each year.........
    
    Then why did mine look the same as lots of others (-:?
    
    JK

    Thanks Nigel for posting your quotes.
    
    I understand that once the "list" is in vtx that adhoc quotes for cars
    not listed will not appear anywhere.
    
    Could a new note be started where we could post any individual quotes
    for all to see. Its always interesting to see how much the lease costs
    work out on various cars.
    
    Perhaps some kind mod could post the previous note there as a starter ?
    
    - Roy

    1463.112 now refers to note 1538. Quotes 1991 scheme.
    
    Richard

    With the new fixed price list on VTX, is this meant to be reviewed
    annually. If so, when will it get reviewed and take the budget etc into
    account. 
    
    A friend in the office was thinking of getting a BMW 318, and was told
    by someone in Fleet to submit a quote because it would be cheaper then
    the fixed price list on VTX.
    
    Greg

    
    With all the price changes/model changes/specification changes, it
    seems like the list is out of date almost as soon as it's published! So
    much for saving money!
    
    Steve.
    

    Well I can't remember if the discussions about getting quotes in before
    July were in this note or not.
    
    However a guy in our office, whose car is due for renewal in September has
    just had his quotes bounced!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg
    

    The rules state that you can only ask for quotes 3 months prior to the
    renewal date, if his is September then that makes June for quotes.
    Looks like he jumped the gun.
    
    Paul

> Looks like he jumped the gun

Exactly. Because car prices have dropped quotes are coming in very
cheaply now. I'mm 99.9% sure that come the 1st July the car supplement
will be reduced. This is because the base price on which they calculate
the supplement has been reduced.

It will be interesting to see if quotes before/after Jult vary by much.

Greg

Three months isn't very long. Seeing as it can take two or three weeks to
get a quote back and you can only put in two at a time, it could take 4-6
weeks to find a quote that you want. When I ordered my Rover 214, it took
4 months to arrive. That's 4 months of hiring a car - hardly cutting costs!



	Ian

    SO as 1st July approachs, does anyone know :
    
    a. whether the fixed price list will be updated?
    
    b. What the new supplement levels will be?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    Here's is an annoying situation... I am seriously concidering getting a
    Frontera Sport when my car is due for renewal, OCT 31.  Unfortunately,
    having spoken to Vauxhall, there is about a 12 week waiting list at
    present, and the factory will close for the month of August.  These
    means if I order at the end of July/start of Aug.  There is not a hope
    in hell of me getting my prefered car, within the requote time frame!!
    
    Can anyone in car fleet suggest a way round this ???
    
    I will ofcourse call them in the next day or two to find out, but would
    be interested in a public statement...
    
    Bob

re .121

Well Bob, I was after a new Renault 19, the sales guys in Renault say
order quickly because the 16V will take some time, so I rang car fleet
asking if I can start the system 4 months before my expiration, and
they basically said:NO WAY!

I hope you have better luck!

Greg

Got this from my boss:

The car supplements will NOT go up in July.
        Research shows that the "basket" of cars for each level is
        below the existing  rate.( I have full details)
        A new prefered list will be out soon preceded by a mail to all
        car users.

     	>>Research shows that the "basket" of cars for each level is
        >>below the existing  rate.( I have full details)
        
    	What does this mean ??
    
    Rich
    

re .124;

	>>What does this mean ??
    
Simple. Standard answer. No extra money. 

Peter.

	It still means that if you take the cash, you are not undercompensated,
	but I quote "less overcompensated"


	Heather

If I replaced my lease car today it would cost three times as much as 18 months
ago when I started the lease. I think my benefits are eroding.

Car: Cavalier CD 2.0i, I pay �768, current cost �2200.

/Dave.

>Car: Cavalier CD 2.0i, I pay �768, current cost �2200.


	VTX says basket 100, 4dr cavalier 2.0 CDI  1425 - driver cost
			     5dr		   1453 - driver cost

	Am I missing something?

	Heather - yes it still more!

    re .127
    
    ???   looking at VTX
    
    102   VAUXHALL CAVALIER 2.0 CDI 5DR     1,453 
    
    Nearly doubled, I grant you, but where do you get �2200 from?
    
    Huw.

>Car: Cavalier CD 2.0i, I pay �768, current cost �2200.


	Thinking about it again, you actually pay 3400+768    4168

	the price is now 3400+1453                            4853

	which is 16-17% increase........still very interseting

    
    I received a mail this a.m. re: the new 'basket' of cars giving
    a range of suggested models for each job level.
    
    Does this imply that the current list on VTX is invalid and that the
    new list is simply th list contained in the mail this a.m. ??
    
    R
    

    
>    Does this imply that the current list on VTX is invalid and that the
>    new list is simply th list contained in the mail this a.m. ??
    
 
	I ahve highlighted the list on baskets of cars, with the VTX info, and 
	I asked personnel this morning to clarify.

	I will let you know the outcome.  

	Heather

    Hot from Car Fleet:
    
    The new list should be out any time now, with a revised format. Cars on
    it will be similar.
    
    Apparently the list is at Personnel who are adding the insurance costs
    in. They are waiting for the July What Car in order to get these costs
    (I've had this mag for a week now, so I guess the list must be almost
    ready!)
    
    Greg

oops got my figures wrong! I don't recognise the 16/17% increase argument, as I
would be paying double the amount *I* choose to pay over the base car. The base
car cost is covered by the company as long as I get a car supplement and choose
to use it towards a lease car.

/Dave.

    any update on when the FY93, Preferred Car list is due... I have heard
    numerous rumors that the list is ready, but no one will commit to when
    the list will be out, and it is a pain to wait for!
    
    Bob

    VTX now says that the new list is "imminent".
    
    The old one has gone.
    
    Dave.

    What's the official lines of communication when you have submitted an
    order?
    
    Do you get a mail to say fleet actually received the order, followed by
    one with the delivery date?
    
    
    Greg (who doesn't trust internal mail!)

    You get confirmation of the order from Car fleet via ALL-IN-1 and later
    an expected delivery date by the same method.
    
    Andy

    How long does this confirmation take to arrive after you post your
    order?
    
    Greg

    Mine seemed to appear within 2 weeks of submitting the order. The
    delivery date came about a month later.
    
    Andy

>    How long does this confirmation take to arrive after you post your
>    order?
 
	Mine took for ever, I changed my name 3 years ago, and they hadn't 
	quite caught up - and I thought ELF was slow!!!!!!!!  
    
	Heather

	PS, I have no idea why they couldn't reply to my mail instead, they 
	looked up my badge number against their database........

Received this today. I ordered from the preferred list, so who benefits?

I have to now wait for the whole quote process to be completed, what is the
point of this list if all orders are submitted as quotes?

Guess my 10th August delivery is a non starter!

Greg


                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     29-Jul-1992 08:51pm BST
                                        From:     DFMS_A_L
                                                  DFMS_A_L@UKBOPS@MRGATE@SUBURB@REO
                                        Dept:      
                                        Tel No:    

TO:  GREGORY HILTON@LZO


Subject: Quotation Acknowledgment


                             INTEROFFICE MEMORANDUM
                             ----------------------

To      : HILTON, GREGORY                               Date : 29 JUL 92
Loc     : LZO5                                          From : G & A Purchasing
                                                        Loc. : REO F3

Subject: Your Quotation :- RENAULT 19 16V 4DR SALOON               
Lease term      : 30  months / 60,000  miles
Quote number    : 012385 Date requested : 29 JUL 92
Extras          : As requested.

We have received your quotation request which has been sent to the leasing      
companies for action.                                                           
                                                                                
You will be advised in due course of the driver price for the requested vehicle.
                                                                                
If you have placed an order against one of the basket quotes on the Preferred   
Car list please ignore this memorandum. In order to determine which leasing     
company will give the most competitive lease costs to Digital we must firstly   
go through the quotation process. This does not affect the driver cost you have 
already obtained from VTX.                                                      
                                                                                
As soon as your order is placed an order acknowledgement memorandum will be     
sent to your ALL-IN-1 account.                                                  
                                                                                
Kind regards                                                                    
Purchasing (Fleet)                                                              
                                                                                
                                                                                

    
    Long story in the Evening Standard yestday which picked up on the
    likely tax rates for next year.
    
    Summary was that if you buy in :-
    
    10-12k range, unlikely to be much different.
    
    15k-18k     , likely to be + 40%
    
    22k-28k     , likely to be minus 30 %
    
    over 35k    , up 35%
    
    Sounds as though most Deccies in the mid-range might well be better off
    with the money ...
    
    Colin 

Did the Standard story say if the low mileage 50% surcharge is still
going to be the same?

Jon

    Re: .142
    
    �If you have placed an order against one of the basket quotes on the 
    �Preferred Car list please ignore this memorandum. In order to
    �determine which leasing company will give the most competitive lease
    �costs to Digital we must firstly go through the quotation process.
    
    Like Greg, I find this absolutely amasing.
    
    There would appear to be no saving for the company if you order from
    the preferred list because a quote has to go in anyway !
    
    So do not delay if you order from the list as you will have to wait for 
    a quote to come back before Fleet can place the order.
    
    Roy

    .145��If you have placed an order against one of the basket quotes on the 
    .145��Preferred Car list please ignore this memorandum. 
    
    Doesn't this say IGNORE this memo?? I seem to be as guilty as every one
    in NOT ignoring it :-) but I read this as saying for the standard cars
    we do NOT need special quotes..... HOWEVER the electronic mail delivery
    is automatic.
    
    Cheers, Chris

    It goes on to say:
    "This does not affect the driver cost you have already obtained from VTX."
    
    In other words, ignore the memo because whatever the lowest quote is
    you pay the price from the preferred list.
    
    Ian.
    

    The important point is that YOU order from a fixed price, then FLEET
    obtain a quote anyhow. Presumably if it's cheaper FLEEET win, if it's
    more expensive you win. Either way it induces a delay into the ordering
    from the prefferred list.
    
    Greg

       	Apparantly there is a report out today from 'Incomes Data
        Services' called something like "Company Car or Cash".

        It says that the concept of the company car as a benefit will
        disappear completely when the new taxing bands are implemented in
        1994. According to the item on TV-am this morning, a number of
        companies (e.g. Barclays Bank, several stock dealing firms, T.S.B.)
        are already phasing out cars as a perk.

        Ian.

    Any comments on the 'leaked' truth that we are all going to lose our
    company cars as discussed in note 709.62 in UK_DIGITAL.
    
    Royston

   Re: .151
   	Those of us over here at IME aren't in the standard Digital
   UK car scheme either.
   	The management have admitted that the scheme that we do have isn't
   as good as the standard scheme (only option allowed is Auto/Manual
   gearbox, no paying more for better car) and are 'reviewing the scheme'
   but this review was started at least 18 mths ago and isn't expected to
   complete within the next few months.

re .151; It's always been like that, 'cos manufacturing (or Digital Equipment
(Scotland) Ltd) has always had different rules and conditions to the
rest of Digital (UK).

Don't ask me why, but manufacturing has always "gone it's own way" on
several things.

Peter.

If the rumour is true, then how on earth are people who
need a car to do their job  going to manage.

I can see some sweeping changes coming in soon and could
guess at a few ways of saving money, but I doubt very
much that Digital would abolish the scheme completely.


	Ian

    I would guess that it's the "car as a perk" sde of the scheme that
    they're considering abolishing. There really isn't much excuse for
    keeping it, now the tax advantages that used to exist (a few years ago)
    have largely been removed. And it almost certainly isn;t worth the
    hassle (witness the thousands of notes in here and elsewhere
    complaining about it!) I would hope that it would be replaced by a
    salary allowance.
    
    For those that really do need a car for their work, the scheme ought to
    continue (although one could see that they might want to simplify it -
    perhaps reduce the choice? When I first worked for Digital, in a job
    for which one needed a car, the choice was a Hunter or an Avenger!)
    
    D.

    At the risk of making myself very unpopular :-
    
    The fairest company car scheme I have ever seen was one where no-one
    had a company car nor used their own cars for business. The company
    provided a number of pool cars which were available for ratified
    company business. If none were available, the company hired another
    car.
    
    The results of the above are :-
    
    1. No employees get taxed for the perceived benefit of having a company
    car.
    
    2. No employees are able to make loads of money by using their own car
    and getting paid a mileage allowance.
    
    3. The company is able to minimise costs by having a fleet of identical
    cars, enabling them to negotiate better deals with car dealerships,
    servicing etc.
    
    Terry
    
    

    I've put together an Excel spreadsheet which analyses the cost of
    ownership of a company car versus a private car. I intend to make this
    available to all, but at the moment I'd like someone who a) knows the
    car scheme and tax situation and b) is at least familiar with Excel to
    look over my spreadsheet and sanity-check it.
    
    Any takers? Please drop me mail if you think you could help.
    
    Keith

    
>    2. No employees are able to make loads of money by using their own car
>    and getting paid a mileage allowance.
 
	I use my own car, I get 8p a mile............I wish it covered the
	petrol.

>    3. The company is able to minimise costs by having a fleet of identical
>    cars, enabling them to negotiate better deals with car dealerships,
>    servicing etc.
 
	We already do this, by having "baslkets" of cars, those who get one
	outside of the basket, pay their own, and don't benefit from the
	deal.

	Heather   
    

    
    I would be quite happy to use a pool car and not pay income tax on
    the "perk" in theory, but I am home based and fifty miles and 1 1/2 hrs
    drive away, so would I:
    
    1) Be expected to make my own way to the office everyday to pick up a
    pool car and go back to essex ready to accept calls, this would use 3
    hours of my time and 3 hours of company time plus about 200 miles
    between us, this sounds awfully inefficient as it would cut my
    effective working day to 4.5 hours and who would respond to the calls I
    normally deal with in the other 3 hours?
    
    2)The alternative is to give me a pool car that I take home and keep
    there but I must not use for personal use. Thereby the only change
    would be that I have no choice of vehicle (and therefore no pride in
    it, which would be reflected in the appearance of the vehicle and thus
    affect the company image presented to our customers). Plus I could not
    be expected to clean it at my own expense or in my own time or take it
    in for service in my time as I do currently. Or pay for parking (I live
    in a town centre and often end up having to pay and display in the
    evenings and at weekends)
    
    Basically neither of these options is a viable business proposition, I
    think things should be left alone. I do over 18,000 miles and feel that
    the tax is reasonable (and much fairer now its based on price rather
    than engine size) I think the people who are most hit by this tax is
    people who don't do any/many business miles and drive big flash
    expensive cars, .........just the people a "perk" tax should hit!

    Some thoughts re .159
    
    1. The 3 hours of your time used isn't really an issue, as no one
    should get paid for travelling to and from work. Where you choose to
    live and its distance from your work place are personal choices, which
    have a downside ( cost and time ) and an upside ( presumably a nice
    location ). 
    
    2. Will you be able to prove to the taxman that you never use the car
    for personal use if it stays overnight at your home address ? 
    
    3. I would have thought that a fleet of identical cars would present
    much more of a company image than the current hotch-potch to be seen in
    the car park at present.
    
    4. I don't really see why you should have any less pride in a company
    car just because it isn't your favourite fuel-injection turbo 4WD GTi
    with ABS etc.
    
    5. I agree that you should not be expected to pay for its cleaning or 
    servicing, but is this not the case at the moment anyway ?
    
    Just some thoughts
    
    	Terry

re the last few;

the only way to avoid tax is to use your own car to get to work, and then
pick up the pool car.

There was a case a couple of years ago of some fire officer who was on 24 
hour call, and was provided with a nice estate car that had blue lights,
lots of gear, and so on. He had to pay the full car tax on the benefit
of having a company supplied vehicle, even though you couldn't pop
down to the shops for a loaf of bread in it, never mind take the family
out in it.

If the tax man and Digital want to, I'd be happy to come into the office and 
pick up a pool car at 9:00 am, and return it at 5:30 pm to go home.
Mind you, there are days when this means I'd be on the customer site for 
about two hours, which would include a lunch hour. Not very cost effective!

Peter.

    OK, V1 of the car spreadsheet can be copied from 
    
    	sac::disk$user22:[edmunds.public]car.xls
    
    Please read the notes below the "main" part of the spreadsheet. Ignore
    anything to the right of the main spreadsheet.
    
    This is offered in good faith; however, there may be mistakes on it.
    Any career decision based on this spreadsheet is your own!! Any bugs /
    comments / feedback are welcome, and I'll try to correct problems.
    
    My thanks to Richard Davies for giving it the once-over sanity check.
    
    Keith

    
    Re: .160
    
    The point I was trying to make is that I am a Field Service engineer
    working on customer sites 95% of the time and I live in the area I
    cover which is not even in the same county as the office I am
    controlled from which means that travelling from home to site is
    shorter and quicker than from the office in most instances, which means
    that I live in a convenient location for my job even if it is not
    convenient for access to the office, I have a dialup modem at home for
    computer access, a telephone and royal mail, the result is that I spend
    about half a day a month in the office on average, and my company car
    doesn't spend all day parked in the office car park. This is the most
    efficient way for my job to be done and it would serve no purpose
    whatsoever other than wasting mine and company time for me to go to the
    office everday.
    
    Richard
    
    P.s I drive a Citroen Bx 19TGD (diesel)